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What does Big Brother see, while he is watching? [32c3]

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    Host: What does Big Brother
    see, while he is watching?
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    Simon Menner is talking to
    you about this and uncovering
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    images from the secret Stasi archives. He
    was born 1978 in Southern Germany and
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    now he lives and works in Berlin.
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    He does a lot of stuff
    with photography and
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    history and he has been researching for
    three years in Stasi files and images
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    and he is going to show us why this is
    still relevant today or even maybe more
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    relevant than ever.
    Give him a warm welcome.
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    [Audience applause]
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    I was told to use this rather than the
    lavalier mics so I hope it works.
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    First a disclaimer - I'm an
    artist. I'm not a historian
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    so my approach to the
    material I'm going to show is
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    somewhat different from what you
    might expect from a regular historian
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    but we can discuss this as we go on.
    Very briefly before I am going to
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    show you images I found at the archive
    of the Stasi and some very few
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    archives I found at the BND.
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    I'm going to show you three bodies of work
    that brought me to my interest in the Stasi.
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    I am a trained artist, I'm a
    photographer and normally I'm
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    doing things like this and
    I'm very interested in the
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    relationship of what perception does
    within the context of modern conflict.
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    It turns out more importantly perception
    is a battlefield and fear is a weapon.
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    This is not just a set of landscape
    images it is actually set of photographs
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    for which I had support of the German
    army. They supported me with snipers.
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    They were hiding in the landscape aiming
    at the camera and therefore at the viewer.
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    So the sniper would be and in most of the
    pictures from the series there's actually
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    almost no trace to be seen from the
    sniper but this is the way a sniper
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    looks within the landscape.
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    They were ordered to aim at me even
    though I couldn't see them sometimes.
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    When were posing I
    told them well just don't
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    hide behind a tree so I don't see you.
    They told me "no no don't worry we are
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    aiming at you"
    [Audience laughs]
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    Of course the whole thing is
    artificial because they would
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    never choose this kind of setting and
    this kind of environment to posed a
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    threat - there's a sniper here or
    here but this is something that
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    really plays an important
    role in today's conflicts.
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    You try to occupy your
    opponents mind and influence
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    his or her behaviour in that
    way through creating fear.
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    That's another set of images. It's
    based on books by the US army
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    on how to construct booby
    traps out of ordinary objects.
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    Here a TV set or radio if it is switched
    it on its blows up. A box or pipe.
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    As an artist I find this image very
    intriguing because there is one
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    famous painting by
    Magritte; 'this is not a pipe'.
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    Actually this is not a pipe.
    It's supposed to look like a pipe
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    But be aware that from the sixties
    from the US army and these handbooks are
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    now out there and used by opposing
    forces they encounter and the whole
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    story behind these manuals is you're
    supposed to create fear in your opponent.
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    Here is a German chocolate bar. Break it
    off it blows up in your face or a tea kettle.
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    The more ordinary the objects
    are the more terrifying it becomes
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    because once you realize that
    there's no way for you to avoid this
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    idea of fear, everything is dangerous.
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    The other side does this as well.
    This is from videos I found online.
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    This is the last video frame
    before the blast. The last frame
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    before car bomb, roadside bomb or
    something like this explodes.
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    The same here. It's the same technique.
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    The more research I did on this big topic
    of fear and perception within conflict
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    I started to think more and more about the
    topic of surveillance because the
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    interesting aspect would be to look at
    images of surveillance because that
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    would show us these
    mechanisms from the other side.
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    But the strange thing is we talked so much about
    surveillance and much of what we talked
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    about is image based so big brother is
    watching you. That has something to do
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    with images but we take it for granted
    that there's nothing for us to see.
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    Big Brother is watching us but
    it's hidden behind some curtains.
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    I came to realize that actually
    with the unique history of
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    Germany we have this huge opportunity
    in the Stasi archives that are accessible to
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    the public to try to show what Big Brother
    actually sees and I approached them
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    because I could only find written
    references to images they have and could
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    never find images, do they still
    exist and they said sure come over.
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    And that was the start of a
    three-year research project.
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    First I am going to show you images I was
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    in the end not really interested in.
    Images we know exist and from now on
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    that's authentic Stasi material. There
    some from the Czech Republic CSR.
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    I'll point them out and there some from
    the BND and I'll point those out as well.
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    That is something we expect to see.
    Shots taken through button holes and
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    surveillance in the streets. That's
    the US embassy in East Berlin
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    and the entrance doors were under
    constant surveillance with photo
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    cameras and video cameras. Be aware
    in the 80's video equipment was not that
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    sophisticated so at night time the Stasi
    recorded eight hours of darkness but
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    it still ended up at the files. That's
    the state of mind we're talking about so
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    everyone was photographed. Quite
    often we find post boxes where each and
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    everyone who's posting a letter is
    photographed no matter who he or she is.
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    Even if it's an elderly lady. Remember
    these images because I'm going to
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    reference them later. I was more
    interested in something like this.
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    The internal view. Roughly two
    years ago I was able to
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    publish a book and now I'm going to
    follow the structure within the book
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    because I was really interested in how
    do you become a spy and encounted a lot of
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    material that was meant for training
    purposes. These images are from a
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    training session on how to disguise
    yourself as regular citizens.
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    Which I found strange because
    normally that's nothing you should
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    have to learn, but still. Then you
    have a soldier, these ordinary citizens.
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    Some of them look like they live now in
    Berlin amongst the hipsters like this one.
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    That's entitled 'The Western tourist'.
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    Now the tourists is like the photographer
    so the Stasi photograph something
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    that tries to look like a photographer.
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    Women worked for the Stasi as
    well and so the same thing
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    So disguising manuals - what do you
    need to dress up like this and in what
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    circumstances would you use something
    like this. He looks like Hitchhiker's Guide
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    to the Galaxy I think. Be aware that's
    not meant to be funny that was
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    not meant to be seen by anyone.
    That was meant to train agents and we
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    are going to see later that was actually
    used. Here we have a hitchhiker at a motorway
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    around Berlin and that's from the
    CSR archives which I was granted access to
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    earlier this year. They did the
    same thing. It's not just
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    something the Stasi did, they did it as
    well. Then you had other aspects of
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    disguise like how to wear a wig.
    How to stick a fake moustache.
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    Due to privacy concerns the images
    had to be pixelated but I could see
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    the faces while researching the
    archives. Much funnier actually.
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    Again from the CSR you
    could also disguise cars.
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    You could draw something that's
    from a from a steel mill in the CSR.
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    And then, a disguised stroller
    with a video camera.
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    It's actually a video camera from
    Japan and they imported
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    this type of surveillance equipment
    quite frequently. And then you
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    encounter other material like how to transmit
    secret signals and how to transmit codes.
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    The codes are not known now
    but still the photos exist and they have a
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    strange beauty in them. Once you
    got your training and then you have to
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    be taught how maybe to arrest someone.
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    You first knock the door
    and then you arrest him.
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    Notice the piece of cloth on the floor because
    he didn't want to ruin his white shirt.
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    Maybe he wants to fight so you
    have to fight. [Audience laughs]
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    But the Stasi always wins. Again
    they CSR took things very seriously.
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    Things there seem to be escalating much
    quicker so you have to shoot people.
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    Again it quickly escalates and he has
    to be shot. When you know that
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    you have to be taught how to to follow
    people around. Sometimes you
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    find very elaborate stories where you
    follow people around. Just a very
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    short exception. So she's at the bakery
    and then she goes to a doctor's office
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    which is already something Stasi maybe
    shouldn't know and then she does a phone call.
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    Here you see she's smiling at the
    camera of course the whole thing is
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    staged for colleagues but this is
    sometimes very lengthy.
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    You see this guy shopping and then shopping
    and walking Alexanderplatz, meeting
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    another guy. It's like a photo love story.
    Then they take the car and he gets out the car in
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    the middle of the woods and he walks.
    Another car comes and then they meet and
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    why did you take such pictures.
    What's the point of that but still
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    that ends up at the archive and
    is part of the training operation.
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    So now the training is done and this
    then is a real surveillance photograph.
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    The black arrow, that's supposedly
    the person they were shadowing.
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    Then you see we are
    not in the training manual
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    but we are already one step ahead
    and that's then the real material.
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    He or she is followed
    around the country and again
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    Czech Republic you have ordinary
    citizens being shadowed entering a house.
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    With the shadowing comes also the breach
    of privacy and here we have the room of
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    a teenager which looks very innocent to
    us but I'm very positive that, I guess
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    it's a guy, he never entered university in
    East Germany. Due to the fact that they
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    could prove that he was a fan of Wily
    Coyote and the United States or so they
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    thought they could prove. They took
    such images as evidence for your
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    thinking which is a problem of a
    surveillance operation I would argue.
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    Here we have what might
    be the biggest Madonna fan
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    in all of communist Eastern Europe.
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    Same thing. Probably would never
    be able to study law or medicine.
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    You frequently have images
    such as this and that was classified as
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    Western pornography and the funny thing
    about this classification is very
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    often you find files that
    read Western pornography
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    and the photographs are missing.
    [Audience laughs]
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    Someone went to this apartment,
    documented everything, archived it maybe
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    the guy was prosecuted and when there
    was no one was looking they took the pictures.
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    Which then shows the
    absurd nature of the system.
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    For me this is a very key
    image, it's a set of images
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    but that's actually one of the images
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    that brought me to contacting the Stasi
    archives. I read about those images.
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    This is a Polaroid as you can see by the
    white background and as a matter of
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    fact Stasi frequency purchased Polaroid
    films or confiscated Polaroid film sent
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    to East Germany and the reason for that
    was when they broke into people's homes
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    and you should never find out, the
    easiest thing was you break-in, you look
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    around, what looks interesting you take a
    Polaroid and with that you are able to put
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    everything back in its original position.
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    This is an absolute brutal
    image because that shows
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    the deepest possible breach
    of privacy imaginable.
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    And most people in fact never found out
    that their apartment was searched and that
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    was absolutely illegal even in East
    Germany and it was very revealing last year
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    a German TV station thought it's a good
    idea to hook me up with a former Stasi
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    general and I told him about the Polaroid's
    and he said "Yeah but please keep in mind
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    I never broke into people's apartments."
    I said did you order it?
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    "Yes I ordered it but I never broke into
    people's houses" I thought what stupid excuse is that?
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    Who then is responsible because normally
    the excuse is always I was ordered to do it
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    and his excuse was I just ordered them, I
    don't really... why would they do it. I
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    just ordered it. It was not my intention.
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    That was revealing to me the state
    of mind within such a system.
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    So you have folders and
    folders of those Polaroids
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    and when they found something
    incriminating they might have returned a
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    few days later with the police and
    search warrant because they needed a
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    search warrant even in East Germany.
    Now we realize that even though it looks
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    funny the way they disguise themselves
    it's meant seriously and it's a terrible
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    brutal system. Which you also see in these
    images from the CSR where people
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    are forced to stage their own attempt of
    fleeing the country. They were made to stage
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    the thing they were arrested for, even a
    young child was made to re-enact their
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    failed attempt to flee the country.
    And that is brutal.
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    Sometimes you find images that are completely
    out of any category. Like a guinea pig.
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    I told you earlier to remember
    the postbox with the old lady.
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    That's an image from one of those
    files so you have a surveillance
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    operation of a post boxes, you see its taken
    from a high angle maybe out of a private apartment and
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    then you have shot after shot and then two
    pictures of these guinea pig and then
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    the surveillance operation continues.
    What I read out of that is he was in a
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    private apartment and was bored. He
    lies flat on the ground, takes two shots and
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    then continues the surveillance operation
    knowing that the material is going to
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    end up at the archive and gets his archive
    number. That's German bureaucracy I guess.
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    Very revealing. So who are these guys?
    That's actually a British spy.
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    There were some officially registered
    Western spies within Eastern Germany.
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    The Russians had the same thing for West Germany
    and the Stasi's job was to folow and document what
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    they were doing. They couldn't do
    anything to them, only document.
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    You find many of these images.
    Like a spy taking a picture of a
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    spy in an endless circle of surveillance.
    What's very revealing is the fact
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    that I tried to gain access to their
    material - it's still classified.
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    I'm very positive I know what the image
    shows. It's pretty much the same thing.
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    I tried to understand what these
    people are thinking but it turns out
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    even though they were fighting each other they
    seem to share a very common state of mind.
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    That looks like the endpoint
    of surveillance, no its not.
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    It's one step further. It's Stasi agents
    watching Stasi agents watching other people.
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    That's a triangle of surveillance.
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    Common as well. Never be sure
    about your colleagues. They could be up to
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    something so better spy on them as well.
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    I present you the absolute
    endpoint of surveillance which is
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    the surveillance selfie.
    [Audience laughs and applauds]
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    I give you another one.
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    They knew it was going to end up at the archives.
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    So they are spying on themselves, spying on other
    while spying on themselves. It's almost medative.
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    Who are these people? Now we are at the
    internal view. The Stasi looks at itself.
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    Here's a group photo. Remember this
    guy, we encounter him later.
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    That happens to be the
    phone surveillance unit.
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    Highest-ranking officials here, that's
    the boss of the whole bunch and of
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    course the Stasi, it's Eastern Europe they
    like medals and awards ceremony.
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    Flowers, a medal a piece of paper.
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    This guy again and he gets really shaby
    flowers and a piece of paper.
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    That's odd - see the wax seal
    and it is burned at the side.
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    Because he was knighted. A knight
    of the phone surveillance unit.
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    To the non Germans that's a
    symbol of a code of law in Germany.
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    He knew they were breaking the law
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    and they're mocking it with this
    ceremony so now you are the knight of
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    the phones surveillance unit.
    Congratulations hahaha what a good joke.
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    Another set of images which is very revealing is this.
    Strange finding in the Stasi archive.
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    A strange combination. See the bishop
    and the soccer player and back there
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    with the blue shirt. That's a Party Youth
    member and then see the ballerina.
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    Strange. The guy in a suit; it's his
    birthday and he's the boss of them.
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    These are all highest-ranking Stasi
    officials and they surprise him with a
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    birthday party and the surprise is to dress up
    as those people you put under surveillance.
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    Party Youth, soccer player, the
    ballerina. Beautiful, very beautiful
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    Soccer fan. Of course you have to put
    them under surveillance.
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    A doctor. Of course who cares
    about a right to be quiet of doctors.
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    A judge, you have to put a
    judge under surveillance.
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    Then there is this dress up. Hardly
    to be understood outside Germany.
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    He's dressed up as a peace activist
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    and he wears this 'sword to ploughshares'
    sticker at his head and some other peace
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    stickers there and he
    is very proud of himself.
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    Why, because it was
    such a successful costume.
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    I think where did he get the costume
    from. The easiest thing for someone like him is
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    to take it from someone they put in jail.
    Because you could at least lose access
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    to university for wearing one of these
    stickers, or serve some time in jail.
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    You could lose access to good housing and
    everything. Why is he able to mock it?
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    Because he's the one who would decide
    whether or not you lose access and this
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    is the a terrible thing
    about these images.
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    They're very revealing.
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    These images are now 25/30 years
    old. Why do I think these images are
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    still relevant today? It's
    because of something like this.
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    There was a short period after the fall of
    the Berlin Wall. It fell in November 9th
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    and the Stasi wasn't
    dissolved until early January.
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    So there was a very short period of time
    were the Stasi could try to destroy material.
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    They managed to destroy
    a huge bunch of material.
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    Not a very important set
    except foreign espionage.
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    That's almost gone but if it would have
    been up to them that would have been the
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    fate of all these images. Destruction. We
    would have never been able to look at
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    these images. Even though we don't
    know what these images stand for.
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    Maybe that's that's a group of gay men and they
    infiltrated it and it was compromising
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    to one of their colleagues that they had
    infiltrated it. They did things like that.
  • 26:01 - 26:08
    But they tried to destroyed it. Twenty-five
    years after the fall of the Berlin Wall
  • 26:08 - 26:13
    why do you still think this material is
    very relevant. I'm going to show you something
  • 26:13 - 26:20
    even more special and more rare
    than the materials I showed you just now.
  • 26:20 - 26:26
    It's this. Over a course of
    year I tried to convince
  • 26:26 - 26:32
    BND to grant me access to their
    material which would be amazing because
  • 26:32 - 26:38
    in Germany we have these one society
    with the two opposing systems so the
  • 26:38 - 26:44
    view on the cold war would be
    absolutely astonishing if you would be
  • 26:44 - 26:51
    able to look at all the material.
    After a year they got a call and told me
  • 26:51 - 26:55
    that we've got something
    for you, come over.
  • 26:55 - 27:00
    They have a small section in Berlin
    so I went there will my scanner and
  • 27:00 - 27:09
    they gave me that I would call them 14
    most boring pictures of the BND history.
  • 27:10 - 27:12
    It's a matchbox.
  • 27:17 - 27:23
    I looked at these images and I was like what
    do they show and this guy was very serious
  • 27:23 - 27:27
    and told me 'Unfortunately I can't tell you
    because the information is still classified'.
  • 27:27 - 27:34
    [Audience laughter]
  • 27:34 - 27:43
    Back then he told me as far as he knows
    these are the only images they ever released.
  • 27:45 - 27:52
    So there's a huge problem I
    have with this of course.
  • 27:56 - 28:01
    They can decide which images to show.
  • 28:01 - 28:05
    One of the guys I was in contact
    with there told me of course we have
  • 28:05 - 28:11
    these disguise pictures and dress up and
    things like that but keep in mind
  • 28:11 - 28:16
    back then he might have been the lowest in
    the hierarchy and now he might be
  • 28:16 - 28:21
    head of the department or the one who
    brought in the guy who is now the head
  • 28:21 - 28:25
    of the department. Of course
    not in their interest for
  • 28:25 - 28:28
    these images to be released.
  • 28:31 - 28:33
    Yeah, but its in my interest
  • 28:33 - 28:37
    and our interest as to decide which
    images are worth looking at or not.
  • 28:37 - 28:43
    There's another problem
    with images like this.
  • 28:43 - 28:48
    We have almost nothing that is
    accessible from the Western archives.
  • 28:48 - 28:55
    This is rare, this is special. It looks
    like shit but it's very special.
  • 28:55 - 29:02
    But we have a trove from the Eastern
    archive and that's always like the miracle
  • 29:02 - 29:07
    and when one of the Eastern
    former communist countries
  • 29:07 - 29:15
    decides whether we should limit access
    to our former Stalinist archives we say 'No!
  • 29:15 - 29:20
    don't do that. we must be open' but what
    happens when we have access to just one
  • 29:20 - 29:26
    side and see all the terrible things they
    are doing and have no access to the other side?
  • 29:26 - 29:31
    I'm not saying that the BND did the same
    terrible things the Stasi did but the
  • 29:31 - 29:37
    BND was certainly breaking our laws as
    well. But it does look more innocent
  • 29:37 - 29:41
    because we only have access to
    a very terrible looking archive
  • 29:41 - 29:47
    and if we look to the West Germany's
    it's like nothing there, must be fine and
  • 29:47 - 29:54
    that's a terrible thing.
    There's a lot wrong with that
  • 29:54 - 30:00
    So I'm almost at the end,
    I was rushing through.
  • 30:04 - 30:16
    I can show you two videos from Czech
    archive audio isn't important because I was too quick
  • 30:18 - 30:22
    Sorry maybe that
    is not going to work.
  • 30:22 - 30:30
    It seems things escalated
    much quicker in CSR.
  • 30:37 - 30:42
    Life in the CSR must have
    been very dangerous.
  • 30:45 - 30:50
    He has weapons every where.
  • 31:22 - 31:27
    But the best thing comes now.
    [Audience laughs]
  • 31:35 - 31:41
    Who would carry something like that there.
  • 31:41 - 31:50
    [Audience applause]
  • 31:52 - 31:57
    That's a very long film
    that's just a short part.
  • 31:57 - 32:01
    If you are ever attacked
    by someone with a chair.
  • 32:08 - 32:14
    That's like the six or seventh time he
    shows that. He shows it again and then
  • 32:14 - 32:20
    it's going to be used but look closely
    how the technique they just learned is used.
  • 32:20 - 32:26
    Do this the next time you are
    attacked by some one with a chair.
  • 32:29 - 32:32
    Now he's going to be attacked by a chair.
  • 32:32 - 32:35
    Watch carefully he implements
    it quite properly.
  • 32:40 - 32:46
    Well he didn't really look.
    It's a long film and things
  • 32:46 - 32:49
    always escalates very quickly.
  • 32:53 - 32:58
    Two very long shots and you
    are supposed to spot them.
  • 32:58 - 33:02
    They are are unnecessarily long.
  • 33:04 - 33:06
    [Audience laughter]
  • 33:10 - 33:14
    Of course they find the black guy smuggling.
  • 33:14 - 33:20
    He explains in English 'Do you have more like that
  • 33:20 - 33:22
    and he says no no ,no no
  • 33:22 - 33:27
    and still the porn is still in the
    shot. And then he tells him yes but it's
  • 33:27 - 33:29
    going to be very serious
    if you don't confess now.
  • 33:29 - 33:33
    Black guy says no I don't
    have anything to confess.
  • 33:33 - 33:46
    The guy on the left get suspicious.
    He doesn't want to sign his confession.
  • 33:54 - 34:01
    He gets suspicious. Very, very suspicious
  • 34:03 - 34:07
    Fortunately the camera man made the move to the left or
  • 34:07 - 34:12
    not to zoom in on the penis. No no he
    doesn't have anything but it turns out
  • 34:12 - 34:19
    it turns out he has something because
    he's black and suspicious-looking.
  • 34:22 - 34:26
    Ah! He is moving his arm.
  • 34:52 - 34:57
    It turns out his arm is not broken.
  • 34:57 - 35:02
    Sorry that was somewhat long but
    I rushed through everything else.
  • 35:02 - 35:07
    For some reason he hides
    batteries in his cast.
  • 35:07 - 35:16
    [Audience laughs and applauds]
  • 35:19 - 35:30
    He could bring in the watches but you better
    hide the batteries because wooo. Any questions?
  • 35:31 - 35:45
    [Applause]
  • 35:45 - 35:51
    Host: Thank you
    Simon: I hope you got what you paid for.
  • 35:51 - 35:57
    Host: Maybe before we start questions and
    answers everybody who wants to leave, leave now.
  • 35:57 - 36:01
    Host: We will take one
    minute so you can leave
  • 36:01 - 36:07
    and all the others who want
    to stay have it quiet for the Q&A.
  • 36:30 - 36:35
    Host: And remember
    to use the rating system
  • 36:35 - 36:48
    Simon: I brought postcards because we
    have to make fun of them as much as we can.
  • 36:48 - 36:55
    Simon: It's all the same motif
    but take as many as you want.
  • 37:11 - 37:20
    Host: There are two microphones for
    the questions and answers, no four if you need them.
  • 37:20 - 37:29
    Host: 1,2 and we have questions from the internet.
  • 37:37 - 37:40
    Host: OK we will start with you
  • 37:40 - 37:43
    Audience member: Just a
    short question please.
  • 37:43 - 37:49
    First of all thanks for the wonderful
    talk was very very interesting.
  • 37:49 - 37:52
    Can you give us the
    title of your book please.
  • 37:52 - 37:57
    Simon: Oh yeah, Google my
    name. It's available in your
  • 37:57 - 38:06
    local bookstore or if you want Amazon. It
    still available but not many copies left.
  • 38:07 - 38:14
    It's just Top Secret and then Simon Menner. My family
    doesn't write that many books.
  • 38:16 - 38:21
    Host: thank you.
    Audience member: Would you be so kind to
  • 38:21 - 38:24
    show us back that photo with the Coyote
  • 38:24 - 38:33
    ugly and American flag because I thought
    I saw Yugoslav air transport logo on the...
  • 38:33 - 38:41
    There you see it. He flew with,
    now it's called Air Serbia.
  • 38:41 - 38:51
    Simon: Yeah that must have been the reason
    Audience member: I just wanted to check that out thanks
  • 38:51 - 38:54
    Host: We have a question from the internet.
  • 38:54 - 39:01
    Internet host: Yes Frankie2 is asking how
    does this compare to todays surveillance?
  • 39:01 - 39:08
    Simon: The problem is, in a way, that's a
    treasure trove but it's a very weird one.
  • 39:08 - 39:15
    If I could freely choose what material
    to look at I would definitely try
  • 39:15 - 39:19
    to look at the last two weeks of
    NSA surveillance like we all would.
  • 39:19 - 39:24
    but unfortunately that is
    as close as as we can get
  • 39:24 - 39:30
    to this kind of material. Keep in
    mind, back in its day the Stasi was
  • 39:30 - 39:34
    at least as sophisticated
    as the BND. In fact there were
  • 39:34 - 39:41
    more advanced in the technologies
    they used. The Stasi would definitely use
  • 39:41 - 39:45
    the same techniques BND and CIA
  • 39:45 - 39:51
    and everyone else uses today. They would
    try to listen in on our phone conversations.
  • 39:51 - 39:58
    That might not be the right material to look at
    it from a technological point of view
  • 39:58 - 40:03
    but I think this material is very interesting and
    important if you want to find something
  • 40:03 - 40:10
    out about their state of mind. Which
    is absurd but keep in mind the excuse
  • 40:10 - 40:15
    you hear from the NSA. They just want to
    protect the law and that's why they are
  • 40:15 - 40:20
    breaking the law. That's an excuse you
    regularly find with the Stasi as well.
  • 40:20 - 40:25
    You find parallels and that's why
    it's important to look at this material
  • 40:25 - 40:31
    even though it's very old. The whole
    archive consists somewhere
  • 40:31 - 40:37
    between one and two million
    photographs which absurdly little
  • 40:37 - 40:41
    if you think that the system was in
    operation for almost 40 years.
  • 40:41 - 40:44
    That's fifty thousand
    pictures a year and they had
  • 40:44 - 40:50
    85,000 agents. From todays standards
    that's nothing but today they would be
  • 40:50 - 40:54
    far more sophisticated I guess.
  • 40:54 - 40:57
    Host: We have a question over there
  • 40:57 - 41:00
    Audience member: Firstly, thank you for your talk.
  • 41:00 - 41:06
    You showed that some of this information had
    been destroyed or at least attempts were
  • 41:06 - 41:12
    made to destroy and much of it was but
    there's a still a lot left to look through.
  • 41:12 - 41:18
    What happens in future generations when,
    given that now surveillance is done all
  • 41:18 - 41:25
    digitally, the Stasi had some number of weeks
    from when the wall fell to when they had actually
  • 41:25 - 41:30
    disband and they had time to to to destroy
    things. Given how quickly and easy
  • 41:30 - 41:35
    it is to erase digital information
    what would you say to the people
  • 41:35 - 41:36
    coming after you,
  • 41:36 - 41:41
    future generations who might want to try
    and find similar things in dissolved
  • 41:41 - 41:43
    surveillance organizations.
    Are they completely stuffed?
  • 41:43 - 41:45
    Simon: Unless there is going to be a
  • 41:45 - 41:50
    revolution they are not going to be able to
    look at anything that would be my guess.
  • 41:50 - 41:54
    You need this abrupt
    shift in the whole system
  • 41:54 - 42:02
    that decapitates this operation and so they
    lost everything and now it's frozen in time.
  • 42:02 - 42:07
    The guy at the BND told me it's
    up to us to decide what we reveal and
  • 42:07 - 42:13
    what not because we have a veto.
    Of course nothing is then revealed, ever.
  • 42:13 - 42:18
    As long as this stays the policy
    and it is the policy currently
  • 42:18 - 42:22
    everywhere from what I understand you're
  • 42:22 - 42:30
    not going to be able to look at anything.
    I'm not very optimistic in that respect.
  • 42:31 - 42:34
    Audience member: Hello, thanks for your talk.
  • 42:34 - 42:40
    How did you decide what faces
    to anonymise and which not to?
  • 42:40 - 42:48
    Simon: With the Czech Republic archive images
    I did it and that's weird you can do
  • 42:48 - 42:52
    whatever you want
    which is terrible in a way.
  • 42:52 - 42:56
    The Stasi images, the archive
    had to decide and it decided
  • 42:56 - 43:02
    on the basis when you work in
    an official position, in the German law
  • 43:02 - 43:08
    when you work in an official position in
    times of historical importance
  • 43:08 - 43:10
    like that you lose your privacy rights.
  • 43:10 - 43:15
    You don't share the same privacy rights.
    So once we could find written evidence
  • 43:15 - 43:26
    that the person shown in the image was
    working for the Stasi they lost the
  • 43:26 - 43:31
    right to privacy. If the slightest doubt
    remained it had to be pixeled so it wasn't
  • 43:31 - 43:37
    done by me. The German privacy
    rights are very strict.
  • 43:38 - 43:42
    Audience member: You said when you talked
  • 43:42 - 43:46
    about surveillance watching each other
    and surveilling each other that this
  • 43:46 - 43:52
    would be something like the highest state
    of surveillance but in a sense don't you
  • 43:52 - 43:55
    think there's now a much higher state and
    also that before things were much more
  • 43:55 - 43:59
    clear. Everybody knew that there was a
    regime trying to stay in power and tried to
  • 43:59 - 44:04
    put down everybody. Now
    wouldn't it be a situation where they don't
  • 44:04 - 44:08
    even have to break the law, they just
    make it legal to surveil. We can see in
  • 44:08 - 44:13
    France now with the law on
    intelligence that passed just after the Charlie
  • 44:13 - 44:18
    murders and now we've got the murders
    again and you've got people that have to
  • 44:18 - 44:22
    stay in their homes because the
    intelligence has said that they might
  • 44:22 - 44:24
    protest and they don't have to go
    through a Judge. They're actually
  • 44:24 - 44:30
    making it legal and not even have to
    break the law and also where people
  • 44:30 - 44:33
    actually surveil each other.
  • 44:33 - 44:42
    Simon: That's Facebook today.
    The general problem with
  • 44:42 - 44:48
    surveillance operations I would argue and
    hope someone from the BND is here
  • 44:48 - 44:55
    to come forward and talk to them because
    it would really like to find out.
  • 44:57 - 45:03
    I would argue that this type of surveillance
    cannot work. What you're trying to find
  • 45:03 - 45:10
    proof for is a state of mind, his thoughts.
    It's not something you did but some things
  • 45:10 - 45:15
    you think about or you
    think you might want to do.
  • 45:15 - 45:18
    I'm a photographer and I know
    how bad photography is.
  • 45:18 - 45:25
    You were looking at images of landscape where no
    sniper was visible and each one of you saw it.
  • 45:25 - 45:31
    That's how bad photography is as an
    evidence and this can be proved for
  • 45:31 - 45:38
    everything and nothing. Could be proof.
  • 45:38 - 45:41
    Audience member: They just write a paper
    to the police and he just says okay they're
  • 45:41 - 45:43
    dangerous and they have to stay at home.
  • 45:43 - 45:54
    Simon: Yes but they need proof or evidence
    for now. You leave behind such a trail of
  • 45:54 - 45:58
    evidence yourself that could be
    read somewhere in the future.
  • 45:58 - 46:04
    What happens in 10 years
    when the US like smoking and
  • 46:04 - 46:08
    drinking isn't socially acceptable anymore.
    What happens to you then with
  • 46:08 - 46:18
    your Facebook entry that's twenty
    years old then, it's a weird system.
  • 46:18 - 46:20
    Host: We have another
    question from the internet
  • 46:20 - 46:23
    Internet host: Yes somebody from from IRC
  • 46:23 - 46:27
    is asking if you have tried
    to contact other agencies.
  • 46:27 - 46:35
    Simon: Yes, like the BND which was not
    very successful. With these spies taking pictures of
  • 46:35 - 46:40
    spies I tried with the British. I know
    these pictures still exists. I know where
  • 46:40 - 46:49
    they exist but, sorry. Czech Republic I
    was asked by the Institute to
  • 46:49 - 46:54
    approach them but it was very difficult
    that's too lengthy to explain now.
  • 46:54 - 46:57
    It was very difficult working with them
  • 46:57 - 47:03
    language wise and because of the
    structure of the archive itself.
  • 47:03 - 47:08
    They were very open and so if you want to do
    more research on something like that
  • 47:08 - 47:14
    go to the Czech Republic's first because
    it's much easier to work with them on
  • 47:14 - 47:21
    the bureaucratic level than with the Germans
    but the Germans in a way are more organized.
  • 47:22 - 47:26
    That's the Germans!
  • 47:30 - 47:35
    Audience member: How hard was it to get the
    material although it is not classified any more
  • 47:35 - 47:38
    how much time did you invest?
  • 47:38 - 47:41
    Simon: The hardest time was
    waiting periods in between
  • 47:41 - 47:46
    requests because German
    bureaucracy takes forever.
  • 47:46 - 47:53
    I'm from West Germany but now I have a huge
    file in this archive because they compile everything so
  • 47:53 - 47:58
    they keep track of every picture you
    looking at. The funny thing is
  • 47:58 - 48:03
    it's not hard. You can do it as well.
    You don't have to be a researcher and
  • 48:03 - 48:08
    the archive considers research a basic
    human right which I learned then and it's
  • 48:08 - 48:16
    a very convenient thing. There are some elderly
    former Stasi agents who spend their retirement researching.
  • 48:16 - 48:23
    something, they can do it. The weird
    thing was that most of the pictures
  • 48:23 - 48:26
    no one's looked at before. That could be
    proven because they keep track of
  • 48:26 - 48:34
    everything. It's very easy, very
    lengthy process but very easy.
  • 48:34 - 48:38
    Audience member: When you decided
    to visit the archives did you
  • 48:38 - 48:42
    have to apply for a certain
    corner in the archive
  • 48:42 - 48:45
    or could you just walk in and
    say show me all your pictures?
  • 48:45 - 48:49
    Simon: No, it was very
    open they might have
  • 48:49 - 48:56
    closed off behind me somewhat because
    for them it was strangely overwhelming the
  • 48:56 - 49:02
    amount of feedback they got after my book
    came out and they want to be left alone I think.
  • 49:02 - 49:17
    You have to formulate a theme quite
    clearly for me but since this was new
  • 49:17 - 49:24
    back then, for them as well, it was surveillance
    and photography which is a very broad topic.
  • 49:24 - 49:31
    Now they received quite a few requests like
    we want to see what Simon Menners saw
  • 49:31 - 49:36
    and they don't accept something like this. So
    you have to come up with something more clever.
  • 49:36 - 49:39
    Audience member: How much time
    did you spend in their dungeons?
  • 49:39 - 49:48
    Simon: Three years on and off but it's
    mostly waiting in between so be patient.
  • 49:50 - 49:56
    Audience member: Modern state agencies
    including NSA and BND have this mentality of
  • 49:56 - 50:01
    collect all passive intelligence and
    has this ability to minimize the impact
  • 50:01 - 50:05
    of the damage that there's no human eyes
    looking at specific piece of surveillance.
  • 50:05 - 50:11
    Of course we know this is not true
    and they can zero in when they want to.
  • 50:11 - 50:16
    As an archivist how do you
    try to understand the
  • 50:16 - 50:21
    state of mind when you have so much data,
    possibly unprocessed data, and how do you
  • 50:21 - 50:25
    get into the mind of filtering through
    this bureaucratic censorship of not just
  • 50:25 - 50:28
    no documents but a
    hundred million documents.
  • 50:28 - 50:31
    Simon: One has to be
  • 50:31 - 50:36
    very careful with such material because
    you look through their eyes and that's
  • 50:36 - 50:43
    dangerous and that's why I try not to
    provide that much "background
  • 50:43 - 50:47
    information" because the "background
    information" and most of the images has
  • 50:47 - 50:55
    text complied by Stasi agents so theres
    already guilty or not guilty written in the text.
  • 50:55 - 51:00
    I don't want to look at these pictures
    through their eyes but still I find it very
  • 51:00 - 51:05
    revealing to look at the raw
    material and the Stasi would have
  • 51:05 - 51:11
    collected everything in bulk if they would have been
    able. They opened every parcel to East
  • 51:11 - 51:20
    Germany, every letter. Paranoia wise they
    were several steps ahead of the NSA.
  • 51:20 - 51:26
    They had a university and when studying
    there you could do your PhD but you
  • 51:26 - 51:29
    were not allowed to keep your notes
  • 51:29 - 51:36
    you took during the day. They had to be
    locked into lockers that had doors on two sides.
  • 51:36 - 51:39
    You lock them in and they will copy
    that night and you were not allowed to
  • 51:39 - 51:44
    keep your PhD thesis because the moment
    you wrote it was classified top secret
  • 51:44 - 51:49
    and that's paranoia. It really is paranoia.
  • 51:49 - 51:54
    I cannot prove it and that's
    the problem with the whole thing,
  • 51:54 - 51:56
    one side remains closed.
  • 51:56 - 52:02
    You cannot prove otherwise.
    My guess would be they're quite
  • 52:02 - 52:05
    happy with the situation, that
    you cannot prove otherwise.
  • 52:05 - 52:09
    Because they can always
    say we did something else.
  • 52:09 - 52:19
    Well we can't tell you but not like this. It's always
    very weak but from the state of mind insane.
  • 52:20 - 52:23
    Audience member: What is the
    copyright of these pictures?
  • 52:23 - 52:27
    Are they public domain, can I
    use them for internet memes?
  • 52:27 - 52:33
    Simon: Well no. Unfortunately most of
    the pictures on my website are low resolution
  • 52:33 - 52:38
    which the archive doesn't like but it's there.
  • 52:38 - 52:42
    The problem is there's a law that covers
    this archive. It's not part of the
  • 52:42 - 52:48
    archive sphere in Germany, it has its own
    law and the law was written early
  • 52:48 - 52:54
    90's by lawmakers. We all know them
    and love them. They never thought about
  • 52:54 - 53:02
    the fact that an artist might come along
    and show them. So the law covers publication.
  • 53:02 - 53:11
    Once you have access to the archive
    you are allowed to publicize it.
  • 53:11 - 53:15
    Nothing else is stated. But
    you're not allowed to hand over the
  • 53:15 - 53:23
    files and I had lengthy debates with the
    archive what that could mean because it
  • 53:23 - 53:31
    when you have it on their website you hand
    out the files - it;s publicizing it. No no no no.
  • 53:31 - 53:40
    I said what's the difference? We don't
    really know but.... Tricky.
  • 53:40 - 53:46
    And so many people copied it from my
    website which I think is good.
  • 53:46 - 53:52
    Host: Having a look at my watch I think we have one
    more question here two here.
  • 53:52 - 53:56
    Simon: I'm here the next three days look at me I
    might not remember your face but you
  • 53:56 - 54:02
    might remember my bald head so talk to me
  • 54:02 - 54:05
    Audience member: Were you able to
    access files other than images?
  • 54:05 - 54:08
    Audio recordings of this phone
    surveillance for example?
  • 54:08 - 54:10
    Simon: That's a very tricky thing.
    You could listen to those
  • 54:10 - 54:17
    but getting them is almost impossible
    because German privacy laws again.
  • 54:17 - 54:24
    Their argument is whenever you speak you
  • 54:24 - 54:30
    could reveal something private and that's
    their argument even though you might be
  • 54:30 - 54:36
    Erich Honecker or Helmut Kohl
    but still it could be private
  • 54:36 - 54:42
    what you're saying. That's why they
    could never release something, you would
  • 54:42 - 54:47
    never be allowed to release its stating
    thats Erich Honecker because it could be private.
  • 54:47 - 54:58
    So it's a strange law but no one's
    going to change it any more.
  • 54:58 - 55:01
    Host: And the last question over here
  • 55:01 - 55:07
    Audience member: I'm interested how you
    always know what shown by the photographs?
  • 55:07 - 55:14
    Were there captions like spy spying on spy or
    brought about by an explanation by yourself?
  • 55:14 - 55:22
    Simon: It's gazillions of kilometres of
    files and just a very few photographs so
  • 55:22 - 55:26
    there's always a huge amount of
    background information. The greatest
  • 55:26 - 55:35
    thing and I am absolutely thankful
    towards, it was only ladies working at the
  • 55:35 - 55:41
    archive, really at the archive handing
    me the files and giving me the copies because
  • 55:41 - 55:46
    the most important thing and whenever
    you want to work with an
  • 55:46 - 55:50
    archive the trickiest part is how do
    you find something you don't know exists.
  • 55:50 - 55:54
    Because you can't ask for it. I'm really
    looking for...
  • 55:54 - 56:01
    is there a birthday party? You will never
    ask for something like this but once
  • 56:01 - 56:06
    you've earned the trust of the people working at
    the archive they provide you and provided
  • 56:06 - 56:13
    me with these images because they knew in
    which direction I was looking for material.
  • 56:13 - 56:20
    There was always in most cases
    there was background information.
  • 56:20 - 56:27
    There's a weird set of a dead swan
    which I didn't include in the talk.
  • 56:27 - 56:32
    It's a set of 4 images of a dead
    swan. It was only known that it was found
  • 56:32 - 56:38
    in the vault that was owned by Erich
    Mielke the head of Stasi personally.
  • 56:38 - 56:41
    It's four images of a
    grave of a dead swan with
  • 56:41 - 56:47
    GDR flags around it. That's very
    famous for being the biggest mystery in
  • 56:47 - 56:52
    the Stasi files because nothing can
    be found about these images.
  • 56:52 - 56:56
    I didn't include them in the talk but
    it's a dead swan, very mysterious.
  • 56:56 - 56:59
    Must have been important!
  • 56:59 - 57:03
    Host: So thank you Simon very, very much.
  • 57:03 - 57:08
    [Audience applause]
Title:
What does Big Brother see, while he is watching? [32c3]
Description:

What does Big Brother see, while he is watching?
Uncovering images from the secret Stasi archives.

In the past years there has been a lot of discussion on the topic of state sponsored surveillance. But hardly any material can be accessed to support the general debate due to vaguely declared security concerns. So we are debating Big Brother with little knowledge about what he actually sees, while he is watching. Over the course of three years, I was able to research the archives left by East Germany's Stasi to look for visual memories of this notorious surveillance system and more recently I was invited to spend some weeks looking at the archive by the Czechoslovak StB. Illustrating with images I have found during my research, I would like to address the question why this material is still relevant – even 25 years after the fall of the Iron Curtain.

──────────
➤Speaker: Simon
➤EventID: 7209
➤Event: 32th Chaos Communication Congress [32c3] of the Chaos Computer Club [CCC]
➤Location: Congress Centrum Hamburg (CCH); Am Dammtor; Marseiller Straße; 20355 Hamburg; Germany
➤Language: english
➤Begin: Sun, 12/27/2015 18:30:00 +01:00
➤License: CC-by

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Video Language:
English
Duration:
57:20

English subtitles

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