WEBVTT 00:00:08.970 --> 00:00:12.529 Host: What does Big Brother see, while he is watching? 00:00:12.529 --> 00:00:16.879 Simon Menner is talking to you about this and uncovering 00:00:16.879 --> 00:00:23.489 images from the secret Stasi archives. He was born 1978 in Southern Germany and 00:00:23.489 --> 00:00:27.399 now he lives and works in Berlin. 00:00:27.399 --> 00:00:30.689 He does a lot of stuff with photography and 00:00:30.689 --> 00:00:38.539 history and he has been researching for three years in Stasi files and images 00:00:38.539 --> 00:00:43.939 and he is going to show us why this is still relevant today or even maybe more 00:00:43.939 --> 00:00:47.650 relevant than ever. Give him a warm welcome. 00:00:47.650 --> 00:00:55.560 [Audience applause] 00:00:55.560 --> 00:01:02.590 I was told to use this rather than the lavalier mics so I hope it works. 00:01:02.610 --> 00:01:07.040 First a disclaimer - I'm an artist. I'm not a historian 00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:10.876 so my approach to the material I'm going to show is 00:01:10.876 --> 00:01:15.553 somewhat different from what you might expect from a regular historian 00:01:15.553 --> 00:01:21.750 but we can discuss this as we go on. Very briefly before I am going to 00:01:21.750 --> 00:01:26.890 show you images I found at the archive of the Stasi and some very few 00:01:26.890 --> 00:01:29.570 archives I found at the BND. 00:01:29.569 --> 00:01:38.169 I'm going to show you three bodies of work that brought me to my interest in the Stasi. 00:01:38.169 --> 00:01:42.159 I am a trained artist, I'm a photographer and normally I'm 00:01:42.159 --> 00:01:48.340 doing things like this and I'm very interested in the 00:01:48.340 --> 00:01:59.529 relationship of what perception does within the context of modern conflict. 00:01:59.529 --> 00:02:08.368 It turns out more importantly perception is a battlefield and fear is a weapon. 00:02:08.368 --> 00:02:14.189 This is not just a set of landscape images it is actually set of photographs 00:02:14.189 --> 00:02:18.990 for which I had support of the German army. They supported me with snipers. 00:02:18.990 --> 00:02:23.520 They were hiding in the landscape aiming at the camera and therefore at the viewer. 00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:30.370 So the sniper would be and in most of the pictures from the series there's actually 00:02:30.370 --> 00:02:35.640 almost no trace to be seen from the sniper but this is the way a sniper 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:38.469 looks within the landscape. 00:02:38.469 --> 00:02:42.840 They were ordered to aim at me even though I couldn't see them sometimes. 00:02:42.840 --> 00:02:45.840 When were posing I told them well just don't 00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:51.319 hide behind a tree so I don't see you. They told me "no no don't worry we are 00:02:51.318 --> 00:02:55.340 aiming at you" [Audience laughs] 00:02:55.340 --> 00:02:58.669 Of course the whole thing is artificial because they would 00:02:58.669 --> 00:03:03.879 never choose this kind of setting and this kind of environment to posed a 00:03:03.879 --> 00:03:08.490 threat - there's a sniper here or here but this is something that 00:03:08.490 --> 00:03:12.349 really plays an important role in today's conflicts. 00:03:12.349 --> 00:03:16.429 You try to occupy your opponents mind and influence 00:03:16.429 --> 00:03:20.749 his or her behaviour in that way through creating fear. 00:03:20.749 --> 00:03:27.389 That's another set of images. It's based on books by the US army 00:03:27.389 --> 00:03:32.100 on how to construct booby traps out of ordinary objects. 00:03:32.100 --> 00:03:38.119 Here a TV set or radio if it is switched it on its blows up. A box or pipe. 00:03:38.119 --> 00:03:42.029 As an artist I find this image very intriguing because there is one 00:03:42.029 --> 00:03:45.629 famous painting by Magritte; 'this is not a pipe'. 00:03:45.629 --> 00:03:50.520 Actually this is not a pipe. It's supposed to look like a pipe 00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:56.270 But be aware that from the sixties from the US army and these handbooks are 00:03:56.270 --> 00:04:03.070 now out there and used by opposing forces they encounter and the whole 00:04:03.069 --> 00:04:09.510 story behind these manuals is you're supposed to create fear in your opponent. 00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:17.209 Here is a German chocolate bar. Break it off it blows up in your face or a tea kettle. 00:04:17.209 --> 00:04:22.978 The more ordinary the objects are the more terrifying it becomes 00:04:22.978 --> 00:04:27.810 because once you realize that there's no way for you to avoid this 00:04:27.810 --> 00:04:32.220 idea of fear, everything is dangerous. 00:04:32.220 --> 00:04:37.079 The other side does this as well. This is from videos I found online. 00:04:37.079 --> 00:04:41.918 This is the last video frame before the blast. The last frame 00:04:41.918 --> 00:04:46.929 before car bomb, roadside bomb or something like this explodes. 00:04:46.929 --> 00:04:52.589 The same here. It's the same technique. 00:04:52.589 --> 00:05:00.060 The more research I did on this big topic of fear and perception within conflict 00:05:00.060 --> 00:05:04.810 I started to think more and more about the topic of surveillance because the 00:05:04.810 --> 00:05:09.908 interesting aspect would be to look at images of surveillance because that 00:05:09.908 --> 00:05:15.779 would show us these mechanisms from the other side. 00:05:15.779 --> 00:05:21.448 But the strange thing is we talked so much about surveillance and much of what we talked 00:05:21.449 --> 00:05:26.009 about is image based so big brother is watching you. That has something to do 00:05:26.009 --> 00:05:30.758 with images but we take it for granted that there's nothing for us to see. 00:05:30.758 --> 00:05:34.820 Big Brother is watching us but it's hidden behind some curtains. 00:05:34.820 --> 00:05:38.800 I came to realize that actually with the unique history of 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:46.300 Germany we have this huge opportunity in the Stasi archives that are accessible to 00:05:46.300 --> 00:05:54.900 the public to try to show what Big Brother actually sees and I approached them 00:05:54.899 --> 00:06:01.329 because I could only find written references to images they have and could 00:06:01.329 --> 00:06:07.319 never find images, do they still exist and they said sure come over. 00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:13.108 And that was the start of a three-year research project. 00:06:13.108 --> 00:06:16.348 First I am going to show you images I was 00:06:16.348 --> 00:06:22.560 in the end not really interested in. Images we know exist and from now on 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:30.459 that's authentic Stasi material. There some from the Czech Republic CSR. 00:06:30.459 --> 00:06:36.659 I'll point them out and there some from the BND and I'll point those out as well. 00:06:36.659 --> 00:06:42.710 That is something we expect to see. Shots taken through button holes and 00:06:42.709 --> 00:06:48.859 surveillance in the streets. That's the US embassy in East Berlin 00:06:48.859 --> 00:06:54.739 and the entrance doors were under constant surveillance with photo 00:06:54.740 --> 00:06:59.960 cameras and video cameras. Be aware in the 80's video equipment was not that 00:06:59.959 --> 00:07:05.228 sophisticated so at night time the Stasi recorded eight hours of darkness but 00:07:05.228 --> 00:07:10.728 it still ended up at the files. That's the state of mind we're talking about so 00:07:10.728 --> 00:07:16.709 everyone was photographed. Quite often we find post boxes where each and 00:07:16.709 --> 00:07:22.219 everyone who's posting a letter is photographed no matter who he or she is. 00:07:22.219 --> 00:07:27.240 Even if it's an elderly lady. Remember these images because I'm going to 00:07:27.240 --> 00:07:33.769 reference them later. I was more interested in something like this. 00:07:33.769 --> 00:07:39.448 The internal view. Roughly two years ago I was able to 00:07:39.449 --> 00:07:44.180 publish a book and now I'm going to follow the structure within the book 00:07:44.180 --> 00:07:50.050 because I was really interested in how do you become a spy and encounted a lot of 00:07:50.050 --> 00:07:55.189 material that was meant for training purposes. These images are from a 00:07:55.189 --> 00:08:00.629 training session on how to disguise yourself as regular citizens. 00:08:00.629 --> 00:08:08.629 Which I found strange because normally that's nothing you should 00:08:08.629 --> 00:08:16.469 have to learn, but still. Then you have a soldier, these ordinary citizens. 00:08:16.469 --> 00:08:24.649 Some of them look like they live now in Berlin amongst the hipsters like this one. 00:08:24.649 --> 00:08:28.819 That's entitled 'The Western tourist'. 00:08:28.819 --> 00:08:32.979 Now the tourists is like the photographer so the Stasi photograph something 00:08:32.979 --> 00:08:38.188 that tries to look like a photographer. 00:08:38.188 --> 00:08:43.418 Women worked for the Stasi as well and so the same thing 00:08:43.418 --> 00:08:49.129 So disguising manuals - what do you need to dress up like this and in what 00:08:49.129 --> 00:08:53.010 circumstances would you use something like this. He looks like Hitchhiker's Guide 00:08:53.010 --> 00:09:01.029 to the Galaxy I think. Be aware that's not meant to be funny that was 00:09:01.029 --> 00:09:08.699 not meant to be seen by anyone. That was meant to train agents and we 00:09:08.700 --> 00:09:16.050 are going to see later that was actually used. Here we have a hitchhiker at a motorway 00:09:16.049 --> 00:09:23.240 around Berlin and that's from the CSR archives which I was granted access to 00:09:23.240 --> 00:09:26.889 earlier this year. They did the same thing. It's not just 00:09:26.889 --> 00:09:34.179 something the Stasi did, they did it as well. Then you had other aspects of 00:09:34.179 --> 00:09:44.900 disguise like how to wear a wig. How to stick a fake moustache. 00:09:44.900 --> 00:09:50.219 Due to privacy concerns the images had to be pixelated but I could see 00:09:50.219 --> 00:09:57.240 the faces while researching the archives. Much funnier actually. 00:09:57.240 --> 00:10:05.029 Again from the CSR you could also disguise cars. 00:10:05.029 --> 00:10:12.520 You could draw something that's from a from a steel mill in the CSR. 00:10:12.520 --> 00:10:22.320 And then, a disguised stroller with a video camera. 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:27.630 It's actually a video camera from Japan and they imported 00:10:27.630 --> 00:10:35.890 this type of surveillance equipment quite frequently. And then you 00:10:35.889 --> 00:10:44.409 encounter other material like how to transmit secret signals and how to transmit codes. 00:10:44.409 --> 00:10:49.550 The codes are not known now but still the photos exist and they have a 00:10:49.549 --> 00:10:56.509 strange beauty in them. Once you got your training and then you have to 00:10:56.509 --> 00:10:59.920 be taught how maybe to arrest someone. 00:10:59.920 --> 00:11:04.490 You first knock the door and then you arrest him. 00:11:04.490 --> 00:11:10.500 Notice the piece of cloth on the floor because he didn't want to ruin his white shirt. 00:11:10.500 --> 00:11:18.699 Maybe he wants to fight so you have to fight. [Audience laughs] 00:11:18.719 --> 00:11:26.649 But the Stasi always wins. Again they CSR took things very seriously. 00:11:26.649 --> 00:11:34.549 Things there seem to be escalating much quicker so you have to shoot people. 00:11:34.549 --> 00:11:43.870 Again it quickly escalates and he has to be shot. When you know that 00:11:43.870 --> 00:11:49.779 you have to be taught how to to follow people around. Sometimes you 00:11:49.779 --> 00:11:53.769 find very elaborate stories where you follow people around. Just a very 00:11:53.769 --> 00:11:59.360 short exception. So she's at the bakery and then she goes to a doctor's office 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:06.539 which is already something Stasi maybe shouldn't know and then she does a phone call. 00:12:06.539 --> 00:12:10.339 Here you see she's smiling at the camera of course the whole thing is 00:12:10.340 --> 00:12:14.900 staged for colleagues but this is sometimes very lengthy. 00:12:14.900 --> 00:12:20.580 You see this guy shopping and then shopping and walking Alexanderplatz, meeting 00:12:20.580 --> 00:12:28.600 another guy. It's like a photo love story. Then they take the car and he gets out the car in 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:33.480 the middle of the woods and he walks. Another car comes and then they meet and 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:38.069 why did you take such pictures. What's the point of that but still 00:12:38.069 --> 00:12:43.350 that ends up at the archive and is part of the training operation. 00:12:43.350 --> 00:12:51.810 So now the training is done and this then is a real surveillance photograph. 00:12:51.810 --> 00:12:55.639 The black arrow, that's supposedly the person they were shadowing. 00:12:55.639 --> 00:13:00.419 Then you see we are not in the training manual 00:13:00.419 --> 00:13:06.280 but we are already one step ahead and that's then the real material. 00:13:06.280 --> 00:13:12.029 He or she is followed around the country and again 00:13:12.029 --> 00:13:19.129 Czech Republic you have ordinary citizens being shadowed entering a house. 00:13:19.129 --> 00:13:28.450 With the shadowing comes also the breach of privacy and here we have the room of 00:13:28.450 --> 00:13:36.259 a teenager which looks very innocent to us but I'm very positive that, I guess 00:13:36.259 --> 00:13:42.450 it's a guy, he never entered university in East Germany. Due to the fact that they 00:13:42.450 --> 00:13:48.759 could prove that he was a fan of Wily Coyote and the United States or so they 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:54.250 thought they could prove. They took such images as evidence for your 00:13:54.250 --> 00:13:58.740 thinking which is a problem of a surveillance operation I would argue. 00:13:58.740 --> 00:14:03.269 Here we have what might be the biggest Madonna fan 00:14:03.269 --> 00:14:08.129 in all of communist Eastern Europe. 00:14:08.129 --> 00:14:17.780 Same thing. Probably would never be able to study law or medicine. 00:14:17.780 --> 00:14:26.830 You frequently have images such as this and that was classified as 00:14:26.830 --> 00:14:32.270 Western pornography and the funny thing about this classification is very 00:14:32.269 --> 00:14:36.569 often you find files that read Western pornography 00:14:36.569 --> 00:14:40.329 and the photographs are missing. [Audience laughs] 00:14:40.329 --> 00:14:46.198 Someone went to this apartment, documented everything, archived it maybe 00:14:46.198 --> 00:14:50.729 the guy was prosecuted and when there was no one was looking they took the pictures. 00:14:50.730 --> 00:14:58.570 Which then shows the absurd nature of the system. 00:14:58.570 --> 00:15:03.290 For me this is a very key image, it's a set of images 00:15:03.290 --> 00:15:05.980 but that's actually one of the images 00:15:05.980 --> 00:15:12.570 that brought me to contacting the Stasi archives. I read about those images. 00:15:12.570 --> 00:15:17.849 This is a Polaroid as you can see by the white background and as a matter of 00:15:17.850 --> 00:15:23.800 fact Stasi frequency purchased Polaroid films or confiscated Polaroid film sent 00:15:23.799 --> 00:15:28.049 to East Germany and the reason for that was when they broke into people's homes 00:15:28.049 --> 00:15:32.919 and you should never find out, the easiest thing was you break-in, you look 00:15:32.919 --> 00:15:39.059 around, what looks interesting you take a Polaroid and with that you are able to put 00:15:39.059 --> 00:15:42.610 everything back in its original position. 00:15:42.610 --> 00:15:46.850 This is an absolute brutal image because that shows 00:15:46.850 --> 00:15:52.089 the deepest possible breach of privacy imaginable. 00:15:52.089 --> 00:15:56.948 And most people in fact never found out that their apartment was searched and that 00:15:56.948 --> 00:16:03.078 was absolutely illegal even in East Germany and it was very revealing last year 00:16:03.078 --> 00:16:07.870 a German TV station thought it's a good idea to hook me up with a former Stasi 00:16:07.870 --> 00:16:16.809 general and I told him about the Polaroid's and he said "Yeah but please keep in mind 00:16:16.809 --> 00:16:22.759 I never broke into people's apartments." I said did you order it? 00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:28.958 "Yes I ordered it but I never broke into people's houses" I thought what stupid excuse is that? 00:16:28.958 --> 00:16:33.119 Who then is responsible because normally the excuse is always I was ordered to do it 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:39.318 and his excuse was I just ordered them, I don't really... why would they do it. I 00:16:39.318 --> 00:16:43.009 just ordered it. It was not my intention. 00:16:43.009 --> 00:16:48.739 That was revealing to me the state of mind within such a system. 00:16:48.739 --> 00:16:54.550 So you have folders and folders of those Polaroids 00:16:54.550 --> 00:16:59.050 and when they found something incriminating they might have returned a 00:16:59.049 --> 00:17:02.719 few days later with the police and search warrant because they needed a 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:10.588 search warrant even in East Germany. Now we realize that even though it looks 00:17:10.588 --> 00:17:15.529 funny the way they disguise themselves it's meant seriously and it's a terrible 00:17:15.529 --> 00:17:20.000 brutal system. Which you also see in these images from the CSR where people 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:27.449 are forced to stage their own attempt of fleeing the country. They were made to stage 00:17:27.449 --> 00:17:34.250 the thing they were arrested for, even a young child was made to re-enact their 00:17:34.250 --> 00:17:40.219 failed attempt to flee the country. And that is brutal. 00:17:40.219 --> 00:17:49.449 Sometimes you find images that are completely out of any category. Like a guinea pig. 00:17:49.449 --> 00:17:55.750 I told you earlier to remember the postbox with the old lady. 00:17:55.750 --> 00:18:01.400 That's an image from one of those files so you have a surveillance 00:18:01.400 --> 00:18:09.090 operation of a post boxes, you see its taken from a high angle maybe out of a private apartment and 00:18:09.089 --> 00:18:16.000 then you have shot after shot and then two pictures of these guinea pig and then 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:21.359 the surveillance operation continues. What I read out of that is he was in a 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:31.539 private apartment and was bored. He lies flat on the ground, takes two shots and 00:18:31.539 --> 00:18:36.289 then continues the surveillance operation knowing that the material is going to 00:18:36.289 --> 00:18:45.150 end up at the archive and gets his archive number. That's German bureaucracy I guess. 00:18:45.150 --> 00:18:51.250 Very revealing. So who are these guys? That's actually a British spy. 00:18:51.250 --> 00:18:56.990 There were some officially registered Western spies within Eastern Germany. 00:18:56.990 --> 00:19:04.720 The Russians had the same thing for West Germany and the Stasi's job was to folow and document what 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:08.889 they were doing. They couldn't do anything to them, only document. 00:19:08.889 --> 00:19:13.200 You find many of these images. Like a spy taking a picture of a 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:19.910 spy in an endless circle of surveillance. What's very revealing is the fact 00:19:19.910 --> 00:19:28.330 that I tried to gain access to their material - it's still classified. 00:19:28.329 --> 00:19:35.528 I'm very positive I know what the image shows. It's pretty much the same thing. 00:19:35.528 --> 00:19:40.890 I tried to understand what these people are thinking but it turns out 00:19:40.890 --> 00:19:46.939 even though they were fighting each other they seem to share a very common state of mind. 00:19:46.939 --> 00:19:53.350 That looks like the endpoint of surveillance, no its not. 00:19:53.350 --> 00:20:00.280 It's one step further. It's Stasi agents watching Stasi agents watching other people. 00:20:00.280 --> 00:20:03.989 That's a triangle of surveillance. 00:20:03.989 --> 00:20:10.418 Common as well. Never be sure about your colleagues. They could be up to 00:20:10.419 --> 00:20:15.750 something so better spy on them as well. 00:20:15.750 --> 00:20:21.630 I present you the absolute endpoint of surveillance which is 00:20:21.630 --> 00:20:30.410 the surveillance selfie. [Audience laughs and applauds] 00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:36.230 I give you another one. 00:20:36.230 --> 00:20:41.910 They knew it was going to end up at the archives. 00:20:41.910 --> 00:20:52.159 So they are spying on themselves, spying on other while spying on themselves. It's almost medative. 00:20:52.159 --> 00:20:58.669 Who are these people? Now we are at the internal view. The Stasi looks at itself. 00:20:58.669 --> 00:21:03.140 Here's a group photo. Remember this guy, we encounter him later. 00:21:03.140 --> 00:21:06.930 That happens to be the phone surveillance unit. 00:21:06.930 --> 00:21:13.550 Highest-ranking officials here, that's the boss of the whole bunch and of 00:21:13.549 --> 00:21:19.929 course the Stasi, it's Eastern Europe they like medals and awards ceremony. 00:21:19.929 --> 00:21:23.959 Flowers, a medal a piece of paper. 00:21:23.959 --> 00:21:32.869 This guy again and he gets really shaby flowers and a piece of paper. 00:21:32.869 --> 00:21:39.669 That's odd - see the wax seal and it is burned at the side. 00:21:39.669 --> 00:21:47.079 Because he was knighted. A knight of the phone surveillance unit. 00:21:53.619 --> 00:22:01.509 To the non Germans that's a symbol of a code of law in Germany. 00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:08.419 He knew they were breaking the law 00:22:08.419 --> 00:22:15.048 and they're mocking it with this ceremony so now you are the knight of 00:22:15.048 --> 00:22:19.970 the phones surveillance unit. Congratulations hahaha what a good joke. 00:22:19.970 --> 00:22:29.490 Another set of images which is very revealing is this. Strange finding in the Stasi archive. 00:22:29.490 --> 00:22:35.940 A strange combination. See the bishop and the soccer player and back there 00:22:35.940 --> 00:22:43.739 with the blue shirt. That's a Party Youth member and then see the ballerina. 00:22:43.739 --> 00:22:52.069 Strange. The guy in a suit; it's his birthday and he's the boss of them. 00:22:52.069 --> 00:22:57.388 These are all highest-ranking Stasi officials and they surprise him with a 00:22:57.388 --> 00:23:04.719 birthday party and the surprise is to dress up as those people you put under surveillance. 00:23:06.380 --> 00:23:15.048 Party Youth, soccer player, the ballerina. Beautiful, very beautiful 00:23:15.048 --> 00:23:19.240 Soccer fan. Of course you have to put them under surveillance. 00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:28.059 A doctor. Of course who cares about a right to be quiet of doctors. 00:23:28.059 --> 00:23:32.579 A judge, you have to put a judge under surveillance. 00:23:32.579 --> 00:23:40.089 Then there is this dress up. Hardly to be understood outside Germany. 00:23:40.089 --> 00:23:45.428 He's dressed up as a peace activist 00:23:45.429 --> 00:23:52.490 and he wears this 'sword to ploughshares' sticker at his head and some other peace 00:23:52.490 --> 00:23:56.759 stickers there and he is very proud of himself. 00:23:56.759 --> 00:24:01.339 Why, because it was such a successful costume. 00:24:02.719 --> 00:24:11.200 I think where did he get the costume from. The easiest thing for someone like him is 00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:16.340 to take it from someone they put in jail. Because you could at least lose access 00:24:16.339 --> 00:24:23.889 to university for wearing one of these stickers, or serve some time in jail. 00:24:23.889 --> 00:24:29.519 You could lose access to good housing and everything. Why is he able to mock it? 00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:35.480 Because he's the one who would decide whether or not you lose access and this 00:24:35.480 --> 00:24:38.569 is the a terrible thing about these images. 00:24:38.569 --> 00:24:41.390 They're very revealing. 00:24:48.860 --> 00:24:56.100 These images are now 25/30 years old. Why do I think these images are 00:24:56.099 --> 00:25:01.968 still relevant today? It's because of something like this. 00:25:01.968 --> 00:25:09.460 There was a short period after the fall of the Berlin Wall. It fell in November 9th 00:25:09.460 --> 00:25:14.140 and the Stasi wasn't dissolved until early January. 00:25:14.140 --> 00:25:19.400 So there was a very short period of time were the Stasi could try to destroy material. 00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:23.860 They managed to destroy a huge bunch of material. 00:25:23.860 --> 00:25:30.200 Not a very important set except foreign espionage. 00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:36.929 That's almost gone but if it would have been up to them that would have been the 00:25:36.929 --> 00:25:43.860 fate of all these images. Destruction. We would have never been able to look at 00:25:43.859 --> 00:25:50.149 these images. Even though we don't know what these images stand for. 00:25:50.150 --> 00:25:55.409 Maybe that's that's a group of gay men and they infiltrated it and it was compromising 00:25:55.409 --> 00:26:00.910 to one of their colleagues that they had infiltrated it. They did things like that. 00:26:00.910 --> 00:26:07.640 But they tried to destroyed it. Twenty-five years after the fall of the Berlin Wall 00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:12.900 why do you still think this material is very relevant. I'm going to show you something 00:26:12.900 --> 00:26:20.059 even more special and more rare than the materials I showed you just now. 00:26:20.059 --> 00:26:26.350 It's this. Over a course of year I tried to convince 00:26:26.349 --> 00:26:32.019 BND to grant me access to their material which would be amazing because 00:26:32.019 --> 00:26:38.240 in Germany we have these one society with the two opposing systems so the 00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:44.169 view on the cold war would be absolutely astonishing if you would be 00:26:44.169 --> 00:26:50.970 able to look at all the material. After a year they got a call and told me 00:26:50.970 --> 00:26:54.879 that we've got something for you, come over. 00:26:54.879 --> 00:26:59.919 They have a small section in Berlin so I went there will my scanner and 00:26:59.919 --> 00:27:08.530 they gave me that I would call them 14 most boring pictures of the BND history. 00:27:09.520 --> 00:27:12.280 It's a matchbox. 00:27:16.640 --> 00:27:22.719 I looked at these images and I was like what do they show and this guy was very serious 00:27:22.719 --> 00:27:27.250 and told me 'Unfortunately I can't tell you because the information is still classified'. 00:27:27.250 --> 00:27:34.320 [Audience laughter] 00:27:34.320 --> 00:27:42.829 Back then he told me as far as he knows these are the only images they ever released. 00:27:44.779 --> 00:27:51.979 So there's a huge problem I have with this of course. 00:27:55.709 --> 00:28:00.709 They can decide which images to show. 00:28:00.709 --> 00:28:04.798 One of the guys I was in contact with there told me of course we have 00:28:04.798 --> 00:28:10.839 these disguise pictures and dress up and things like that but keep in mind 00:28:10.839 --> 00:28:16.079 back then he might have been the lowest in the hierarchy and now he might be 00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:20.819 head of the department or the one who brought in the guy who is now the head 00:28:20.819 --> 00:28:25.189 of the department. Of course not in their interest for 00:28:25.190 --> 00:28:27.860 these images to be released. 00:28:30.760 --> 00:28:33.150 Yeah, but its in my interest 00:28:33.150 --> 00:28:37.240 and our interest as to decide which images are worth looking at or not. 00:28:37.240 --> 00:28:42.609 There's another problem with images like this. 00:28:42.609 --> 00:28:47.740 We have almost nothing that is accessible from the Western archives. 00:28:47.740 --> 00:28:55.419 This is rare, this is special. It looks like shit but it's very special. 00:28:55.419 --> 00:29:02.180 But we have a trove from the Eastern archive and that's always like the miracle 00:29:02.180 --> 00:29:06.799 and when one of the Eastern former communist countries 00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:14.540 decides whether we should limit access to our former Stalinist archives we say 'No! 00:29:14.540 --> 00:29:19.929 don't do that. we must be open' but what happens when we have access to just one 00:29:19.929 --> 00:29:26.340 side and see all the terrible things they are doing and have no access to the other side? 00:29:26.339 --> 00:29:30.779 I'm not saying that the BND did the same terrible things the Stasi did but the 00:29:30.779 --> 00:29:37.000 BND was certainly breaking our laws as well. But it does look more innocent 00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:40.779 because we only have access to a very terrible looking archive 00:29:40.779 --> 00:29:47.309 and if we look to the West Germany's it's like nothing there, must be fine and 00:29:47.309 --> 00:29:54.399 that's a terrible thing. There's a lot wrong with that 00:29:54.399 --> 00:30:00.130 So I'm almost at the end, I was rushing through. 00:30:04.270 --> 00:30:15.790 I can show you two videos from Czech archive audio isn't important because I was too quick 00:30:18.369 --> 00:30:21.690 Sorry maybe that is not going to work. 00:30:21.690 --> 00:30:29.690 It seems things escalated much quicker in CSR. 00:30:36.790 --> 00:30:42.399 Life in the CSR must have been very dangerous. 00:30:45.129 --> 00:30:50.299 He has weapons every where. 00:31:21.649 --> 00:31:27.189 But the best thing comes now. [Audience laughs] 00:31:34.959 --> 00:31:40.919 Who would carry something like that there. 00:31:40.919 --> 00:31:49.609 [Audience applause] 00:31:52.309 --> 00:31:56.659 That's a very long film that's just a short part. 00:31:56.659 --> 00:32:01.109 If you are ever attacked by someone with a chair. 00:32:07.599 --> 00:32:13.759 That's like the six or seventh time he shows that. He shows it again and then 00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:20.029 it's going to be used but look closely how the technique they just learned is used. 00:32:20.029 --> 00:32:26.100 Do this the next time you are attacked by some one with a chair. 00:32:28.830 --> 00:32:31.520 Now he's going to be attacked by a chair. 00:32:31.520 --> 00:32:35.450 Watch carefully he implements it quite properly. 00:32:39.910 --> 00:32:45.660 Well he didn't really look. It's a long film and things 00:32:45.660 --> 00:32:49.369 always escalates very quickly. 00:32:52.899 --> 00:32:57.529 Two very long shots and you are supposed to spot them. 00:32:57.529 --> 00:33:01.599 They are are unnecessarily long. 00:33:03.679 --> 00:33:05.839 [Audience laughter] 00:33:10.259 --> 00:33:14.032 Of course they find the black guy smuggling. 00:33:14.032 --> 00:33:19.655 He explains in English 'Do you have more like that 00:33:19.655 --> 00:33:21.658 and he says no no ,no no 00:33:21.659 --> 00:33:26.590 and still the porn is still in the shot. And then he tells him yes but it's 00:33:26.589 --> 00:33:29.029 going to be very serious if you don't confess now. 00:33:29.029 --> 00:33:33.119 Black guy says no I don't have anything to confess. 00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:46.449 The guy on the left get suspicious. He doesn't want to sign his confession. 00:33:54.250 --> 00:34:01.450 He gets suspicious. Very, very suspicious 00:34:03.350 --> 00:34:06.880 Fortunately the camera man made the move to the left or 00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:11.579 not to zoom in on the penis. No no he doesn't have anything but it turns out 00:34:11.579 --> 00:34:19.260 it turns out he has something because he's black and suspicious-looking. 00:34:21.940 --> 00:34:26.059 Ah! He is moving his arm. 00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:56.680 It turns out his arm is not broken. 00:34:56.680 --> 00:35:01.710 Sorry that was somewhat long but I rushed through everything else. 00:35:01.720 --> 00:35:07.369 For some reason he hides batteries in his cast. 00:35:07.379 --> 00:35:15.779 [Audience laughs and applauds] 00:35:19.209 --> 00:35:29.609 He could bring in the watches but you better hide the batteries because wooo. Any questions? 00:35:31.189 --> 00:35:45.399 [Applause] 00:35:45.429 --> 00:35:50.738 Host: Thank you Simon: I hope you got what you paid for. 00:35:50.738 --> 00:35:57.168 Host: Maybe before we start questions and answers everybody who wants to leave, leave now. 00:35:57.168 --> 00:36:01.208 Host: We will take one minute so you can leave 00:36:01.208 --> 00:36:06.788 and all the others who want to stay have it quiet for the Q&A. 00:36:29.739 --> 00:36:34.589 Host: And remember to use the rating system 00:36:34.590 --> 00:36:47.690 Simon: I brought postcards because we have to make fun of them as much as we can. 00:36:48.469 --> 00:36:54.989 Simon: It's all the same motif but take as many as you want. 00:37:10.860 --> 00:37:20.249 Host: There are two microphones for the questions and answers, no four if you need them. 00:37:20.249 --> 00:37:28.889 Host: 1,2 and we have questions from the internet. 00:37:36.969 --> 00:37:40.099 Host: OK we will start with you 00:37:40.099 --> 00:37:43.099 Audience member: Just a short question please. 00:37:43.099 --> 00:37:49.339 First of all thanks for the wonderful talk was very very interesting. 00:37:49.339 --> 00:37:52.270 Can you give us the title of your book please. 00:37:52.270 --> 00:37:56.610 Simon: Oh yeah, Google my name. It's available in your 00:37:56.610 --> 00:38:05.879 local bookstore or if you want Amazon. It still available but not many copies left. 00:38:06.919 --> 00:38:13.789 It's just Top Secret and then Simon Menner. My family doesn't write that many books. 00:38:16.239 --> 00:38:21.280 Host: thank you. Audience member: Would you be so kind to 00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:24.280 show us back that photo with the Coyote 00:38:24.280 --> 00:38:32.890 ugly and American flag because I thought I saw Yugoslav air transport logo on the... 00:38:32.889 --> 00:38:41.279 There you see it. He flew with, now it's called Air Serbia. 00:38:41.279 --> 00:38:51.000 Simon: Yeah that must have been the reason Audience member: I just wanted to check that out thanks 00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:54.110 Host: We have a question from the internet. 00:38:54.110 --> 00:39:01.090 Internet host: Yes Frankie2 is asking how does this compare to todays surveillance? 00:39:01.090 --> 00:39:08.190 Simon: The problem is, in a way, that's a treasure trove but it's a very weird one. 00:39:08.190 --> 00:39:15.039 If I could freely choose what material to look at I would definitely try 00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:18.679 to look at the last two weeks of NSA surveillance like we all would. 00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:23.799 but unfortunately that is as close as as we can get 00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:29.910 to this kind of material. Keep in mind, back in its day the Stasi was 00:39:29.909 --> 00:39:34.389 at least as sophisticated as the BND. In fact there were 00:39:34.389 --> 00:39:40.909 more advanced in the technologies they used. The Stasi would definitely use 00:39:40.909 --> 00:39:45.299 the same techniques BND and CIA 00:39:45.300 --> 00:39:51.430 and everyone else uses today. They would try to listen in on our phone conversations. 00:39:51.430 --> 00:39:57.610 That might not be the right material to look at it from a technological point of view 00:39:57.610 --> 00:40:02.870 but I think this material is very interesting and important if you want to find something 00:40:02.869 --> 00:40:09.819 out about their state of mind. Which is absurd but keep in mind the excuse 00:40:09.820 --> 00:40:15.019 you hear from the NSA. They just want to protect the law and that's why they are 00:40:15.019 --> 00:40:19.839 breaking the law. That's an excuse you regularly find with the Stasi as well. 00:40:19.839 --> 00:40:24.590 You find parallels and that's why it's important to look at this material 00:40:24.590 --> 00:40:31.220 even though it's very old. The whole archive consists somewhere 00:40:31.219 --> 00:40:37.020 between one and two million photographs which absurdly little 00:40:37.020 --> 00:40:40.810 if you think that the system was in operation for almost 40 years. 00:40:40.810 --> 00:40:43.790 That's fifty thousand pictures a year and they had 00:40:43.790 --> 00:40:49.829 85,000 agents. From todays standards that's nothing but today they would be 00:40:49.829 --> 00:40:53.519 far more sophisticated I guess. 00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:56.769 Host: We have a question over there 00:40:56.769 --> 00:41:00.489 Audience member: Firstly, thank you for your talk. 00:41:00.489 --> 00:41:06.050 You showed that some of this information had been destroyed or at least attempts were 00:41:06.050 --> 00:41:11.990 made to destroy and much of it was but there's a still a lot left to look through. 00:41:11.990 --> 00:41:17.780 What happens in future generations when, given that now surveillance is done all 00:41:17.780 --> 00:41:25.220 digitally, the Stasi had some number of weeks from when the wall fell to when they had actually 00:41:25.219 --> 00:41:30.299 disband and they had time to to to destroy things. Given how quickly and easy 00:41:30.300 --> 00:41:35.430 it is to erase digital information what would you say to the people 00:41:35.429 --> 00:41:36.489 coming after you, 00:41:36.489 --> 00:41:40.529 future generations who might want to try and find similar things in dissolved 00:41:40.530 --> 00:41:43.499 surveillance organizations. Are they completely stuffed? 00:41:43.499 --> 00:41:45.119 Simon: Unless there is going to be a 00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:49.700 revolution they are not going to be able to look at anything that would be my guess. 00:41:49.700 --> 00:41:53.590 You need this abrupt shift in the whole system 00:41:53.590 --> 00:42:02.010 that decapitates this operation and so they lost everything and now it's frozen in time. 00:42:02.010 --> 00:42:06.730 The guy at the BND told me it's up to us to decide what we reveal and 00:42:06.730 --> 00:42:12.739 what not because we have a veto. Of course nothing is then revealed, ever. 00:42:12.739 --> 00:42:18.139 As long as this stays the policy and it is the policy currently 00:42:18.139 --> 00:42:21.639 everywhere from what I understand you're 00:42:21.639 --> 00:42:30.200 not going to be able to look at anything. I'm not very optimistic in that respect. 00:42:31.190 --> 00:42:34.190 Audience member: Hello, thanks for your talk. 00:42:34.190 --> 00:42:39.730 How did you decide what faces to anonymise and which not to? 00:42:39.730 --> 00:42:48.110 Simon: With the Czech Republic archive images I did it and that's weird you can do 00:42:48.110 --> 00:42:52.069 whatever you want which is terrible in a way. 00:42:52.069 --> 00:42:56.219 The Stasi images, the archive had to decide and it decided 00:42:56.219 --> 00:43:02.199 on the basis when you work in an official position, in the German law 00:43:02.199 --> 00:43:07.789 when you work in an official position in times of historical importance 00:43:07.789 --> 00:43:10.359 like that you lose your privacy rights. 00:43:10.360 --> 00:43:15.210 You don't share the same privacy rights. So once we could find written evidence 00:43:15.210 --> 00:43:25.639 that the person shown in the image was working for the Stasi they lost the 00:43:25.639 --> 00:43:31.259 right to privacy. If the slightest doubt remained it had to be pixeled so it wasn't 00:43:31.260 --> 00:43:36.939 done by me. The German privacy rights are very strict. 00:43:38.039 --> 00:43:42.179 Audience member: You said when you talked 00:43:42.179 --> 00:43:46.369 about surveillance watching each other and surveilling each other that this 00:43:46.369 --> 00:43:51.679 would be something like the highest state of surveillance but in a sense don't you 00:43:51.679 --> 00:43:54.969 think there's now a much higher state and also that before things were much more 00:43:54.969 --> 00:43:58.799 clear. Everybody knew that there was a regime trying to stay in power and tried to 00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:04.359 put down everybody. Now wouldn't it be a situation where they don't 00:44:04.358 --> 00:44:07.869 even have to break the law, they just make it legal to surveil. We can see in 00:44:07.869 --> 00:44:12.739 France now with the law on intelligence that passed just after the Charlie 00:44:12.739 --> 00:44:18.138 murders and now we've got the murders again and you've got people that have to 00:44:18.138 --> 00:44:21.558 stay in their homes because the intelligence has said that they might 00:44:21.559 --> 00:44:24.380 protest and they don't have to go through a Judge. They're actually 00:44:24.380 --> 00:44:29.849 making it legal and not even have to break the law and also where people 00:44:29.849 --> 00:44:32.630 actually surveil each other. 00:44:32.630 --> 00:44:42.298 Simon: That's Facebook today. The general problem with 00:44:42.298 --> 00:44:47.809 surveillance operations I would argue and hope someone from the BND is here 00:44:47.809 --> 00:44:54.568 to come forward and talk to them because it would really like to find out. 00:44:57.078 --> 00:45:02.909 I would argue that this type of surveillance cannot work. What you're trying to find 00:45:02.909 --> 00:45:10.018 proof for is a state of mind, his thoughts. It's not something you did but some things 00:45:10.018 --> 00:45:15.170 you think about or you think you might want to do. 00:45:15.170 --> 00:45:18.170 I'm a photographer and I know how bad photography is. 00:45:18.170 --> 00:45:24.979 You were looking at images of landscape where no sniper was visible and each one of you saw it. 00:45:24.979 --> 00:45:31.339 That's how bad photography is as an evidence and this can be proved for 00:45:31.338 --> 00:45:37.699 everything and nothing. Could be proof. 00:45:37.699 --> 00:45:40.969 Audience member: They just write a paper to the police and he just says okay they're 00:45:40.969 --> 00:45:43.489 dangerous and they have to stay at home. 00:45:43.489 --> 00:45:54.068 Simon: Yes but they need proof or evidence for now. You leave behind such a trail of 00:45:54.068 --> 00:45:58.349 evidence yourself that could be read somewhere in the future. 00:45:58.349 --> 00:46:03.950 What happens in 10 years when the US like smoking and 00:46:03.949 --> 00:46:08.449 drinking isn't socially acceptable anymore. What happens to you then with 00:46:08.449 --> 00:46:17.660 your Facebook entry that's twenty years old then, it's a weird system. 00:46:17.660 --> 00:46:20.349 Host: We have another question from the internet 00:46:20.349 --> 00:46:23.130 Internet host: Yes somebody from from IRC 00:46:23.130 --> 00:46:27.210 is asking if you have tried to contact other agencies. 00:46:27.210 --> 00:46:35.210 Simon: Yes, like the BND which was not very successful. With these spies taking pictures of 00:46:35.210 --> 00:46:39.599 spies I tried with the British. I know these pictures still exists. I know where 00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:49.299 they exist but, sorry. Czech Republic I was asked by the Institute to 00:46:49.300 --> 00:46:54.049 approach them but it was very difficult that's too lengthy to explain now. 00:46:54.049 --> 00:46:56.560 It was very difficult working with them 00:46:56.559 --> 00:47:02.700 language wise and because of the structure of the archive itself. 00:47:02.700 --> 00:47:07.859 They were very open and so if you want to do more research on something like that 00:47:07.858 --> 00:47:13.598 go to the Czech Republic's first because it's much easier to work with them on 00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:20.760 the bureaucratic level than with the Germans but the Germans in a way are more organized. 00:47:22.190 --> 00:47:26.189 That's the Germans! 00:47:29.999 --> 00:47:34.519 Audience member: How hard was it to get the material although it is not classified any more 00:47:34.519 --> 00:47:37.519 how much time did you invest? 00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:40.869 Simon: The hardest time was waiting periods in between 00:47:40.869 --> 00:47:45.700 requests because German bureaucracy takes forever. 00:47:45.699 --> 00:47:52.669 I'm from West Germany but now I have a huge file in this archive because they compile everything so 00:47:52.670 --> 00:47:57.700 they keep track of every picture you looking at. The funny thing is 00:47:57.699 --> 00:48:02.808 it's not hard. You can do it as well. You don't have to be a researcher and 00:48:02.809 --> 00:48:08.140 the archive considers research a basic human right which I learned then and it's 00:48:08.139 --> 00:48:15.558 a very convenient thing. There are some elderly former Stasi agents who spend their retirement researching. 00:48:15.559 --> 00:48:22.730 something, they can do it. The weird thing was that most of the pictures 00:48:22.730 --> 00:48:26.159 no one's looked at before. That could be proven because they keep track of 00:48:26.159 --> 00:48:34.439 everything. It's very easy, very lengthy process but very easy. 00:48:34.439 --> 00:48:37.680 Audience member: When you decided to visit the archives did you 00:48:37.680 --> 00:48:42.030 have to apply for a certain corner in the archive 00:48:42.030 --> 00:48:45.219 or could you just walk in and say show me all your pictures? 00:48:45.219 --> 00:48:48.909 Simon: No, it was very open they might have 00:48:48.909 --> 00:48:55.739 closed off behind me somewhat because for them it was strangely overwhelming the 00:48:55.739 --> 00:49:01.519 amount of feedback they got after my book came out and they want to be left alone I think. 00:49:01.518 --> 00:49:16.578 You have to formulate a theme quite clearly for me but since this was new 00:49:16.579 --> 00:49:24.098 back then, for them as well, it was surveillance and photography which is a very broad topic. 00:49:24.098 --> 00:49:31.380 Now they received quite a few requests like we want to see what Simon Menners saw 00:49:31.380 --> 00:49:35.550 and they don't accept something like this. So you have to come up with something more clever. 00:49:35.559 --> 00:49:38.559 Audience member: How much time did you spend in their dungeons? 00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:48.070 Simon: Three years on and off but it's mostly waiting in between so be patient. 00:49:49.559 --> 00:49:55.980 Audience member: Modern state agencies including NSA and BND have this mentality of 00:49:55.980 --> 00:50:01.329 collect all passive intelligence and has this ability to minimize the impact 00:50:01.329 --> 00:50:05.449 of the damage that there's no human eyes looking at specific piece of surveillance. 00:50:05.449 --> 00:50:10.699 Of course we know this is not true and they can zero in when they want to. 00:50:10.699 --> 00:50:15.730 As an archivist how do you try to understand the 00:50:15.730 --> 00:50:20.619 state of mind when you have so much data, possibly unprocessed data, and how do you 00:50:20.619 --> 00:50:25.089 get into the mind of filtering through this bureaucratic censorship of not just 00:50:25.090 --> 00:50:28.349 no documents but a hundred million documents. 00:50:28.349 --> 00:50:30.659 Simon: One has to be 00:50:30.659 --> 00:50:35.699 very careful with such material because you look through their eyes and that's 00:50:35.699 --> 00:50:42.589 dangerous and that's why I try not to provide that much "background 00:50:42.590 --> 00:50:46.809 information" because the "background information" and most of the images has 00:50:46.809 --> 00:50:55.160 text complied by Stasi agents so theres already guilty or not guilty written in the text. 00:50:55.160 --> 00:50:59.769 I don't want to look at these pictures through their eyes but still I find it very 00:50:59.769 --> 00:51:04.550 revealing to look at the raw material and the Stasi would have 00:51:04.550 --> 00:51:11.220 collected everything in bulk if they would have been able. They opened every parcel to East 00:51:11.219 --> 00:51:20.489 Germany, every letter. Paranoia wise they were several steps ahead of the NSA. 00:51:20.489 --> 00:51:26.390 They had a university and when studying there you could do your PhD but you 00:51:26.390 --> 00:51:28.630 were not allowed to keep your notes 00:51:28.630 --> 00:51:35.700 you took during the day. They had to be locked into lockers that had doors on two sides. 00:51:35.700 --> 00:51:39.140 You lock them in and they will copy that night and you were not allowed to 00:51:39.139 --> 00:51:44.099 keep your PhD thesis because the moment you wrote it was classified top secret 00:51:44.099 --> 00:51:49.440 and that's paranoia. It really is paranoia. 00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:54.079 I cannot prove it and that's the problem with the whole thing, 00:51:54.079 --> 00:51:56.019 one side remains closed. 00:51:56.019 --> 00:52:01.949 You cannot prove otherwise. My guess would be they're quite 00:52:01.949 --> 00:52:04.720 happy with the situation, that you cannot prove otherwise. 00:52:04.720 --> 00:52:08.690 Because they can always say we did something else. 00:52:08.690 --> 00:52:18.709 Well we can't tell you but not like this. It's always very weak but from the state of mind insane. 00:52:20.479 --> 00:52:23.030 Audience member: What is the copyright of these pictures? 00:52:23.030 --> 00:52:27.279 Are they public domain, can I use them for internet memes? 00:52:27.279 --> 00:52:33.349 Simon: Well no. Unfortunately most of the pictures on my website are low resolution 00:52:33.349 --> 00:52:37.969 which the archive doesn't like but it's there. 00:52:37.969 --> 00:52:42.389 The problem is there's a law that covers this archive. It's not part of the 00:52:42.389 --> 00:52:47.848 archive sphere in Germany, it has its own law and the law was written early 00:52:47.849 --> 00:52:54.440 90's by lawmakers. We all know them and love them. They never thought about 00:52:54.440 --> 00:53:02.379 the fact that an artist might come along and show them. So the law covers publication. 00:53:02.379 --> 00:53:10.810 Once you have access to the archive you are allowed to publicize it. 00:53:10.810 --> 00:53:15.300 Nothing else is stated. But you're not allowed to hand over the 00:53:15.300 --> 00:53:22.920 files and I had lengthy debates with the archive what that could mean because it 00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:30.690 when you have it on their website you hand out the files - it;s publicizing it. No no no no. 00:53:30.690 --> 00:53:39.619 I said what's the difference? We don't really know but.... Tricky. 00:53:39.619 --> 00:53:46.060 And so many people copied it from my website which I think is good. 00:53:46.060 --> 00:53:51.620 Host: Having a look at my watch I think we have one more question here two here. 00:53:51.620 --> 00:53:56.308 Simon: I'm here the next three days look at me I might not remember your face but you 00:53:56.308 --> 00:54:01.528 might remember my bald head so talk to me 00:54:01.528 --> 00:54:05.278 Audience member: Were you able to access files other than images? 00:54:05.278 --> 00:54:07.608 Audio recordings of this phone surveillance for example? 00:54:07.608 --> 00:54:10.449 Simon: That's a very tricky thing. You could listen to those 00:54:10.449 --> 00:54:17.050 but getting them is almost impossible because German privacy laws again. 00:54:17.050 --> 00:54:24.278 Their argument is whenever you speak you 00:54:24.278 --> 00:54:30.440 could reveal something private and that's their argument even though you might be 00:54:30.440 --> 00:54:36.068 Erich Honecker or Helmut Kohl but still it could be private 00:54:36.068 --> 00:54:41.849 what you're saying. That's why they could never release something, you would 00:54:41.849 --> 00:54:47.480 never be allowed to release its stating thats Erich Honecker because it could be private. 00:54:47.480 --> 00:54:58.070 So it's a strange law but no one's going to change it any more. 00:54:58.090 --> 00:55:01.130 Host: And the last question over here 00:55:01.130 --> 00:55:06.680 Audience member: I'm interested how you always know what shown by the photographs? 00:55:06.679 --> 00:55:13.929 Were there captions like spy spying on spy or brought about by an explanation by yourself? 00:55:13.929 --> 00:55:21.828 Simon: It's gazillions of kilometres of files and just a very few photographs so 00:55:21.829 --> 00:55:25.990 there's always a huge amount of background information. The greatest 00:55:25.989 --> 00:55:34.919 thing and I am absolutely thankful towards, it was only ladies working at the 00:55:34.920 --> 00:55:40.510 archive, really at the archive handing me the files and giving me the copies because 00:55:40.510 --> 00:55:45.609 the most important thing and whenever you want to work with an 00:55:45.608 --> 00:55:49.679 archive the trickiest part is how do you find something you don't know exists. 00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:54.379 Because you can't ask for it. I'm really looking for... 00:55:54.380 --> 00:56:00.510 is there a birthday party? You will never ask for something like this but once 00:56:00.510 --> 00:56:06.000 you've earned the trust of the people working at the archive they provide you and provided 00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:13.050 me with these images because they knew in which direction I was looking for material. 00:56:13.050 --> 00:56:19.539 There was always in most cases there was background information. 00:56:19.539 --> 00:56:26.929 There's a weird set of a dead swan which I didn't include in the talk. 00:56:26.929 --> 00:56:32.210 It's a set of 4 images of a dead swan. It was only known that it was found 00:56:32.210 --> 00:56:37.920 in the vault that was owned by Erich Mielke the head of Stasi personally. 00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:40.920 It's four images of a grave of a dead swan with 00:56:40.920 --> 00:56:46.769 GDR flags around it. That's very famous for being the biggest mystery in 00:56:46.769 --> 00:56:51.960 the Stasi files because nothing can be found about these images. 00:56:51.960 --> 00:56:55.539 I didn't include them in the talk but it's a dead swan, very mysterious. 00:56:55.539 --> 00:56:58.539 Must have been important! 00:56:59.439 --> 00:57:02.800 Host: So thank you Simon very, very much. 00:57:02.800 --> 00:57:08.264 [Audience applause]