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Host: What does Big Brother 
see, while he is watching?

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Simon Menner is talking to 
you about this and uncovering

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images from the secret Stasi archives. He
was born 1978 in Southern Germany and

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now he lives and works in Berlin.

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He does a lot of stuff 
with photography and

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history and he has been researching for
three years in Stasi files and images

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and he is going to show us why this is
still relevant today or even maybe more

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relevant than ever.
Give him a warm welcome.

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[Audience applause]

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I was told to use this rather than the 
lavalier mics so I hope it works.

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First a disclaimer - I'm an 
artist. I'm not a historian

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so my approach to the 
material I'm going to show is

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somewhat different from what you 
might expect from a regular historian

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but we can discuss this as we go on.
Very briefly before I am going to

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show you images I found at the archive
of the Stasi and some very few

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archives I found at the BND.

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I'm going to show you three bodies of work 
that brought me to my interest in the Stasi.

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I am a trained artist, I'm a 
photographer and normally I'm

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doing things like this and 
I'm very interested in the

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relationship of what perception does 
within the context of modern conflict.

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It turns out more importantly perception
is a battlefield and fear is a weapon.

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This is not just a set of landscape
images it is actually set of photographs

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for which I had support of the German
army. They supported me with snipers.

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They were hiding in the landscape aiming
at the camera and therefore at the viewer.

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So the sniper would be and in most of the
pictures from the series there's actually

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almost no trace to be seen from the
sniper but this is the way a sniper

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looks within the landscape.

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They were ordered to aim at me even 
though I couldn't see them sometimes.

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When were posing I 
told them well just don't

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hide behind a tree so I don't see you.
They told me "no no don't worry we are

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aiming at you"
[Audience laughs]

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Of course the whole thing is
artificial because they would

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never choose this kind of setting and
this kind of environment to posed a

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threat - there's a sniper here or 
here but this is something that

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really plays an important 
role in today's conflicts.

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You try to occupy your 
opponents mind and influence

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his or her behaviour in that 
way through creating fear.

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That's another set of images. It's 
based on books by the US army

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on how to construct booby 
traps out of ordinary objects.

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Here a TV set or radio if it is switched 
it on its blows up. A box or pipe.

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As an artist I find this image very 
intriguing because there is one

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famous painting by 
Magritte; 'this is not a pipe'.

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Actually this is not a pipe. 
It's supposed to look like a pipe

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But be aware that from the sixties
from the US army and these handbooks are

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now out there and used by opposing
forces they encounter and the whole

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story behind these manuals is you're 
supposed to create fear in your opponent.

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Here is a German chocolate bar. Break it 
off it blows up in your face or a tea kettle.

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The more ordinary the objects 
are the more terrifying it becomes

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because once you realize that
there's no way for you to avoid this

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idea of fear, everything is dangerous.

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The other side does this as well. 
This is from videos I found online.

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This is the last video frame
before the blast. The last frame

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before car bomb, roadside bomb or
something like this explodes.

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The same here. It's the same technique.

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The more research I did on this big topic 
of fear and perception within conflict

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I started to think more and more about the
topic of surveillance because the

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interesting aspect would be to look at
images of surveillance because that

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would show us these 
mechanisms from the other side.

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But the strange thing is we talked so much about
surveillance and much of what we talked

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about is image based so big brother is
watching you. That has something to do

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with images but we take it for granted
that there's nothing for us to see.

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Big Brother is watching us but 
it's hidden behind some curtains.

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I came to realize that actually 
with the unique history of

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Germany we have this huge opportunity
in the Stasi archives that are accessible to

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the public to try to show what Big Brother
actually sees and I approached them

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because I could only find written
references to images they have and could

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never find images, do they still 
exist and they said sure come over.

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And that was the start of a 
three-year research project.

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First I am going to show you images I was

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in the end not really interested in.
Images we know exist and from now on

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that's authentic Stasi material. There 
some from the Czech Republic CSR.

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I'll point them out and there some from 
the BND and I'll point those out as well.

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That is something we expect to see.
Shots taken through button holes and

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surveillance in the streets. That's
the US embassy in East Berlin

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and the entrance doors were under 
constant surveillance with photo

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cameras and video cameras. Be aware
in the 80's video equipment was not that

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sophisticated so at night time the Stasi
recorded eight hours of darkness but

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it still ended up at the files. That's
the state of mind we're talking about so

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everyone was photographed. Quite 
often we find post boxes where each and

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everyone who's posting a letter is
photographed no matter who he or she is.

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Even if it's an elderly lady. Remember
these images because I'm going to

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reference them later. I was more
interested in something like this.

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The internal view. Roughly two 
years ago I was able to

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publish a book and now I'm going to
follow the structure within the book

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because I was really interested in how
do you become a spy and encounted a lot of

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material that was meant for training
purposes. These images are from a

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training session on how to disguise
yourself as regular citizens.

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Which I found strange because 
normally that's nothing you should

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have to learn, but still. Then you
have a soldier, these ordinary citizens.

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Some of them look like they live now in 
Berlin amongst the hipsters like this one.

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That's entitled 'The Western tourist'.

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Now the tourists is like the photographer 
so the Stasi photograph something

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that tries to look like a photographer.

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Women worked for the Stasi as 
well and so the same thing

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So disguising manuals - what do you
need to dress up like this and in what

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circumstances would you use something
like this. He looks like Hitchhiker's Guide

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to the Galaxy I think. Be aware that's 
not meant to be funny that was

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not meant to be seen by anyone.
That was meant to train agents and we

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are going to see later that was actually
used. Here we have a hitchhiker at a motorway

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around Berlin and that's from the
CSR archives which I was granted access to

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earlier this year. They did the 
same thing. It's not just

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something the Stasi did, they did it as
well. Then you had other aspects of

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disguise like how to wear a wig. 
How to stick a fake moustache.

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Due to privacy concerns the images 
had to be pixelated but I could see

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the faces while researching the 
archives. Much funnier actually.

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Again from the CSR you 
could also disguise cars.

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You could draw something that's 
from a from a steel mill in the CSR.

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And then, a disguised stroller 
with a video camera.

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It's actually a video camera from 
Japan and they imported

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this type of surveillance equipment 
quite frequently. And then you

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encounter other material like how to transmit 
secret signals and how to transmit codes.

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The codes are not known now
but still the photos exist and they have a

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strange beauty in them. Once you
got your training and then you have to

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be taught how maybe to arrest someone.

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You first knock the door 
and then you arrest him.

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Notice the piece of cloth on the floor because 
he didn't want to ruin his white shirt.

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Maybe he wants to fight so you 
have to fight. [Audience laughs]

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But the Stasi always wins. Again
they CSR took things very seriously.

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Things there seem to be escalating much
quicker so you have to shoot people.

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Again it quickly escalates and he has
to be shot. When you know that

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you have to be taught how to to follow
people around. Sometimes you

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find very elaborate stories where you
follow people around. Just a very

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short exception. So she's at the bakery
and then she goes to a doctor's office

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which is already something Stasi maybe 
shouldn't know and then she does a phone call.

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Here you see she's smiling at the
camera of course the whole thing is

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staged for colleagues but this is
sometimes very lengthy.

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You see this guy shopping and then shopping 
and walking Alexanderplatz, meeting

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another guy. It's like a photo love story. 
Then they take the car and he gets out the car in

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the middle of the woods and he walks. 
Another car comes and then they meet and

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why did you take such pictures. 
What's the point of that but still

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that ends up at the archive and 
is part of the training operation.

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So now the training is done and this 
then is a real surveillance photograph.

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The black arrow, that's supposedly 
the person they were shadowing.

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Then you see we are 
not in the training manual

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but we are already one step ahead 
and that's then the real material.

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He or she is followed 
around the country and again

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Czech Republic you have ordinary
citizens being shadowed entering a house.

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With the shadowing comes also the breach
of privacy and here we have the room of

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a teenager which looks very innocent to
us but I'm very positive that, I guess

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it's a guy, he never entered university in
East Germany. Due to the fact that they

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could prove that he was a fan of Wily
Coyote and the United States or so they

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thought they could prove. They took
such images as evidence for your

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thinking which is a problem of a
surveillance operation I would argue.

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Here we have what might 
be the biggest Madonna fan

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in all of communist Eastern Europe.

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Same thing. Probably would never 
be able to study law or medicine.

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You frequently have images
such as this and that was classified as

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Western pornography and the funny thing
about this classification is very

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often you find files that 
read Western pornography

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and the photographs are missing. 
[Audience laughs]

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Someone went to this apartment,
documented everything, archived it maybe

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the guy was prosecuted and when there
was no one was looking they took the pictures.

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Which then shows the 
absurd nature of the system.

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For me this is a very key 
image, it's a set of images

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but that's actually one of the images

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that brought me to contacting the Stasi
archives. I read about those images.

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This is a Polaroid as you can see by the
white background and as a matter of

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fact Stasi frequency purchased Polaroid
films or confiscated Polaroid film sent

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to East Germany and the reason for that
was when they broke into people's homes

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and you should never find out, the
easiest thing was you break-in, you look

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around, what looks interesting you take a
Polaroid and with that you are able to put

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everything back in its original position.

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This is an absolute brutal 
image because that shows

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the deepest possible breach 
of privacy imaginable.

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And most people in fact never found out 
that their apartment was searched and that

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was absolutely illegal even in East 
Germany and it was very revealing last year

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a German TV station thought it's a good
idea to hook me up with a former Stasi

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general and I told him about the Polaroid's 
and he said "Yeah but please keep in mind

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I never broke into people's apartments."
I said did you order it?

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"Yes I ordered it but I never broke into
people's houses" I thought what stupid excuse is that?

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Who then is responsible because normally
the excuse is always I was ordered to do it

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and his excuse was I just ordered them, I
don't really... why would they do it. I

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just ordered it. It was not my intention.

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That was revealing to me the state 
of mind within such a system.

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So you have folders and 
folders of those Polaroids

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and when they found something
incriminating they might have returned a

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few days later with the police and
search warrant because they needed a

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search warrant even in East Germany. 
Now we realize that even though it looks

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funny the way they disguise themselves
it's meant seriously and it's a terrible

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brutal system. Which you also see in these
images from the CSR where people

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are forced to stage their own attempt of
fleeing the country. They were made to stage

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the thing they were arrested for, even a
young child was made to re-enact their

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failed attempt to flee the country. 
And that is brutal.

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Sometimes you find images that are completely 
out of any category. Like a guinea pig.

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I told you earlier to remember
the postbox with the old lady.

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That's an image from one of those
files so you have a surveillance

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operation of a post boxes, you see its taken 
from a high angle maybe out of a private apartment and

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then you have shot after shot and then two
pictures of these guinea pig and then

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the surveillance operation continues. 
What I read out of that is he was in a

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private apartment and was bored. He
lies flat on the ground, takes two shots and

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then continues the surveillance operation
knowing that the material is going to

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end up at the archive and gets his archive 
number. That's German bureaucracy I guess.

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Very revealing. So who are these guys?
That's actually a British spy.

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There were some officially registered 
Western spies within Eastern Germany.

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The Russians had the same thing for West Germany 
and the Stasi's job was to folow and document what

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they were doing. They couldn't do 
anything to them, only document.

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You find many of these images. 
Like a spy taking a picture of a

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spy in an endless circle of surveillance. 
What's very revealing is the fact

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that I tried to gain access to their
material - it's still classified.

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I'm very positive I know what the image
shows. It's pretty much the same thing.

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I tried to understand what these
people are thinking but it turns out

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even though they were fighting each other they 
seem to share a very common state of mind.

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That looks like the endpoint 
of surveillance, no its not.

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It's one step further. It's Stasi agents 
watching Stasi agents watching other people.

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That's a triangle of surveillance.

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Common as well. Never be sure
about your colleagues. They could be up to

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something so better spy on them as well.

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I present you the absolute 
endpoint of surveillance which is

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the surveillance selfie. 
[Audience laughs and applauds]

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I give you another one.

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They knew it was going to end up at the archives.

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00:20:41,910 --> 00:20:52,159
So they are spying on themselves, spying on other 
while spying on themselves. It's almost medative.

213
00:20:52,159 --> 00:20:58,669
Who are these people? Now we are at the 
internal view. The Stasi looks at itself.

214
00:20:58,669 --> 00:21:03,140
Here's a group photo. Remember this 
guy, we encounter him later.

215
00:21:03,140 --> 00:21:06,930
That happens to be the 
phone surveillance unit.

216
00:21:06,930 --> 00:21:13,550
Highest-ranking officials here, that's
the boss of the whole bunch and of

217
00:21:13,549 --> 00:21:19,929
course the Stasi, it's Eastern Europe they
like medals and awards ceremony.

218
00:21:19,929 --> 00:21:23,959
Flowers, a medal a piece of paper.

219
00:21:23,959 --> 00:21:32,869
This guy again and he gets really shaby
flowers and a piece of paper.

220
00:21:32,869 --> 00:21:39,669
That's odd - see the wax seal 
and it is burned at the side.

221
00:21:39,669 --> 00:21:47,079
Because he was knighted. A knight 
of the phone surveillance unit.

222
00:21:53,619 --> 00:22:01,509
To the non Germans that's a 
symbol of a code of law in Germany.

223
00:22:05,039 --> 00:22:08,419
He knew they were breaking the law

224
00:22:08,419 --> 00:22:15,048
and they're mocking it with this
ceremony so now you are the knight of

225
00:22:15,048 --> 00:22:19,970
the phones surveillance unit. 
Congratulations hahaha what a good joke.

226
00:22:19,970 --> 00:22:29,490
Another set of images which is very revealing is this.
Strange finding in the Stasi archive.

227
00:22:29,490 --> 00:22:35,940
A strange combination. See the bishop
and the soccer player and back there

228
00:22:35,940 --> 00:22:43,739
with the blue shirt. That's a Party Youth
member and then see the ballerina.

229
00:22:43,739 --> 00:22:52,069
Strange. The guy in a suit; it's his
birthday and he's the boss of them.

230
00:22:52,069 --> 00:22:57,388
These are all highest-ranking Stasi
officials and they surprise him with a

231
00:22:57,388 --> 00:23:04,719
birthday party and the surprise is to dress up
as those people you put under surveillance.

232
00:23:06,380 --> 00:23:15,048
Party Youth, soccer player, the
ballerina. Beautiful, very beautiful

233
00:23:15,048 --> 00:23:19,240
Soccer fan. Of course you have to put
them under surveillance.

234
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:28,059
A doctor. Of course who cares 
about a right to be quiet of doctors.

235
00:23:28,059 --> 00:23:32,579
A judge, you have to put a 
judge under surveillance.

236
00:23:32,579 --> 00:23:40,089
Then there is this dress up. Hardly 
to be understood outside Germany.

237
00:23:40,089 --> 00:23:45,428
He's dressed up as a peace activist

238
00:23:45,429 --> 00:23:52,490
and he wears this 'sword to ploughshares' 
sticker at his head and some other peace

239
00:23:52,490 --> 00:23:56,759
stickers there and he 
is very proud of himself.

240
00:23:56,759 --> 00:24:01,339
Why, because it was 
such a successful costume.

241
00:24:02,719 --> 00:24:11,200
I think where did he get the costume
from. The easiest thing for someone like him is

242
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:16,340
to take it from someone they put in jail.
Because you could at least lose access

243
00:24:16,339 --> 00:24:23,889
to university for wearing one of these
stickers, or serve some time in jail.

244
00:24:23,889 --> 00:24:29,519
You could lose access to good housing and
everything. Why is he able to mock it?

245
00:24:29,519 --> 00:24:35,480
Because he's the one who would decide
whether or not you lose access and this

246
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,569
is the a terrible thing 
about these images.

247
00:24:38,569 --> 00:24:41,390
They're very revealing.

248
00:24:48,860 --> 00:24:56,100
These images are now 25/30 years
old. Why do I think these images are

249
00:24:56,099 --> 00:25:01,968
still relevant today? It's 
because of something like this.

250
00:25:01,968 --> 00:25:09,460
There was a short period after the fall of 
the Berlin Wall. It fell in November 9th

251
00:25:09,460 --> 00:25:14,140
and the Stasi wasn't 
dissolved until early January.

252
00:25:14,140 --> 00:25:19,400
So there was a very short period of time 
were the Stasi could try to destroy material.

253
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,860
They managed to destroy 
a huge bunch of material. 


254
00:25:23,860 --> 00:25:30,200
Not a very important set 
except foreign espionage.

255
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:36,929
That's almost gone but if it would have
been up to them that would have been the

256
00:25:36,929 --> 00:25:43,860
fate of all these images. Destruction. We
would have never been able to look at

257
00:25:43,859 --> 00:25:50,149
these images. Even though we don't
know what these images stand for.

258
00:25:50,150 --> 00:25:55,409
Maybe that's that's a group of gay men and they
infiltrated it and it was compromising

259
00:25:55,409 --> 00:26:00,910
to one of their colleagues that they had
infiltrated it. They did things like that.

260
00:26:00,910 --> 00:26:07,640
But they tried to destroyed it. Twenty-five
years after the fall of the Berlin Wall

261
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:12,900
why do you still think this material is
very relevant. I'm going to show you something

262
00:26:12,900 --> 00:26:20,059
even more special and more rare 
than the materials I showed you just now.

263
00:26:20,059 --> 00:26:26,350
It's this. Over a course of 
year I tried to convince

264
00:26:26,349 --> 00:26:32,019
BND to grant me access to their
material which would be amazing because

265
00:26:32,019 --> 00:26:38,240
in Germany we have these one society
with the two opposing systems so the

266
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:44,169
view on the cold war would be 
absolutely astonishing if you would be

267
00:26:44,169 --> 00:26:50,970
able to look at all the material. 
After a year they got a call and told me

268
00:26:50,970 --> 00:26:54,879
that we've got something 
for you, come over.

269
00:26:54,879 --> 00:26:59,919
They have a small section in Berlin 
so I went there will my scanner and

270
00:26:59,919 --> 00:27:08,530
they gave me that I would call them 14 
most boring pictures of the BND history.

271
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,280
It's a matchbox.

272
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:22,719
I looked at these images and I was like what 
do they show and this guy was very serious

273
00:27:22,719 --> 00:27:27,250
and told me 'Unfortunately I can't tell you 
because the information is still classified'.

274
00:27:27,250 --> 00:27:34,320
[Audience laughter]

275
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:42,829
Back then he told me as far as he knows
these are the only images they ever released.

276
00:27:44,779 --> 00:27:51,979
So there's a huge problem I
have with this of course.

277
00:27:55,709 --> 00:28:00,709
They can decide which images to show.

278
00:28:00,709 --> 00:28:04,798
One of the guys I was in contact
with there told me of course we have

279
00:28:04,798 --> 00:28:10,839
these disguise pictures and dress up and
things like that but keep in mind

280
00:28:10,839 --> 00:28:16,079
back then he might have been the lowest in
the hierarchy and now he might be

281
00:28:16,079 --> 00:28:20,819
head of the department or the one who
brought in the guy who is now the head

282
00:28:20,819 --> 00:28:25,189
of the department. Of course 
not in their interest for

283
00:28:25,190 --> 00:28:27,860
these images to be released.

284
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,150
Yeah, but its in my interest

285
00:28:33,150 --> 00:28:37,240
and our interest as to decide which 
images are worth looking at or not.

286
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:42,609
There's another problem 
with images like this.

287
00:28:42,609 --> 00:28:47,740
We have almost nothing that is 
accessible from the Western archives.

288
00:28:47,740 --> 00:28:55,419
This is rare, this is special. It looks 
like shit but it's very special.

289
00:28:55,419 --> 00:29:02,180
But we have a trove from the Eastern 
archive and that's always like the miracle

290
00:29:02,180 --> 00:29:06,799
and when one of the Eastern 
former communist countries

291
00:29:06,799 --> 00:29:14,540
decides whether we should limit access 
to our former Stalinist archives we say 'No!

292
00:29:14,540 --> 00:29:19,929
don't do that. we must be open' but what
happens when we have access to just one

293
00:29:19,929 --> 00:29:26,340
side and see all the terrible things they 
are doing and have no access to the other side?

294
00:29:26,339 --> 00:29:30,779
I'm not saying that the BND did the same
terrible things the Stasi did but the

295
00:29:30,779 --> 00:29:37,000
BND was certainly breaking our laws as
well. But it does look more innocent

296
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,779
because we only have access to
a very terrible looking archive

297
00:29:40,779 --> 00:29:47,309
and if we look to the West Germany's
it's like nothing there, must be fine and

298
00:29:47,309 --> 00:29:54,399
that's a terrible thing. 
There's a lot wrong with that

299
00:29:54,399 --> 00:30:00,130
So I'm almost at the end, 
I was rushing through.

300
00:30:04,270 --> 00:30:15,790
I can show you two videos from Czech 
archive audio isn't important because I was too quick

301
00:30:18,369 --> 00:30:21,690
Sorry maybe that 
is not going to work.

302
00:30:21,690 --> 00:30:29,690
It seems things escalated 
much quicker in CSR.

303
00:30:36,790 --> 00:30:42,399
Life in the CSR must have 
been very dangerous.

304
00:30:45,129 --> 00:30:50,299
He has weapons every where.

305
00:31:21,649 --> 00:31:27,189
But the best thing comes now. 
[Audience laughs]

306
00:31:34,959 --> 00:31:40,919
Who would carry something like that there.

307
00:31:40,919 --> 00:31:49,609
[Audience applause]

308
00:31:52,309 --> 00:31:56,659
That's a very long film 
that's just a short part.

309
00:31:56,659 --> 00:32:01,109
If you are ever attacked 
by someone with a chair.

310
00:32:07,599 --> 00:32:13,759
That's like the six or seventh time he 
shows that. He shows it again and then

311
00:32:13,759 --> 00:32:20,029
it's going to be used but look closely
how the technique they just learned is used.

312
00:32:20,029 --> 00:32:26,100
Do this the next time you are 
attacked by some one with a chair.

313
00:32:28,830 --> 00:32:31,520
Now he's going to be attacked by a chair.

314
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,450
Watch carefully he implements 
it quite properly.

315
00:32:39,910 --> 00:32:45,660
Well he didn't really look. 
It's a long film and things

316
00:32:45,660 --> 00:32:49,369
always escalates very quickly.

317
00:32:52,899 --> 00:32:57,529
Two very long shots and you 
are supposed to spot them.

318
00:32:57,529 --> 00:33:01,599
They are are unnecessarily long.

319
00:33:03,679 --> 00:33:05,839
[Audience laughter]

320
00:33:10,259 --> 00:33:14,032
Of course they find the black guy smuggling.

321
00:33:14,032 --> 00:33:19,655
He explains in English 'Do you have more like that

322
00:33:19,655 --> 00:33:21,658
and he says no no ,no no

323
00:33:21,659 --> 00:33:26,590
and still the porn is still in the
shot. And then he tells him yes but it's

324
00:33:26,589 --> 00:33:29,029
going to be very serious 
if you don't confess now.

325
00:33:29,029 --> 00:33:33,119
Black guy says no I don't 
have anything to confess.

326
00:33:33,119 --> 00:33:46,449
The guy on the left get suspicious. 
He doesn't want to sign his confession.

327
00:33:54,250 --> 00:34:01,450
He gets suspicious. Very, very suspicious

328
00:34:03,350 --> 00:34:06,880
Fortunately the camera man made the move to the left or

329
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,579
not to zoom in on the penis. No no he
doesn't have anything but it turns out

330
00:34:11,579 --> 00:34:19,260
it turns out he has something because
he's black and suspicious-looking.

331
00:34:21,940 --> 00:34:26,059
Ah! He is moving his arm.

332
00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:56,680
It turns out his arm is not broken.

333
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:01,710
Sorry that was somewhat long but 
I rushed through everything else.

334
00:35:01,720 --> 00:35:07,369
For some reason he hides 
batteries in his cast.

335
00:35:07,379 --> 00:35:15,779
[Audience laughs and applauds]

336
00:35:19,209 --> 00:35:29,609
He could bring in the watches but you better
hide the batteries because wooo. Any questions?

337
00:35:31,189 --> 00:35:45,399
[Applause]

338
00:35:45,429 --> 00:35:50,738
Host: Thank you
Simon: I hope you got what you paid for.

339
00:35:50,738 --> 00:35:57,168
Host: Maybe before we start questions and 
answers everybody who wants to leave, leave now.

340
00:35:57,168 --> 00:36:01,208
Host: We will take one 
minute so you can leave

341
00:36:01,208 --> 00:36:06,788
and all the others who want 
to stay have it quiet for the Q&A.

342
00:36:29,739 --> 00:36:34,589
Host: And remember 
to use the rating system

343
00:36:34,590 --> 00:36:47,690
Simon: I brought postcards because we 
have to make fun of them as much as we can.

344
00:36:48,469 --> 00:36:54,989
Simon: It's all the same motif 
but take as many as you want.

345
00:37:10,860 --> 00:37:20,249
Host: There are two microphones for
the questions and answers, no four if you need them.

346
00:37:20,249 --> 00:37:28,889
Host: 1,2 and we have questions from the internet.

347
00:37:36,969 --> 00:37:40,099
Host: OK we will start with you

348
00:37:40,099 --> 00:37:43,099
Audience member: Just a 
short question please.

349
00:37:43,099 --> 00:37:49,339
First of all thanks for the wonderful
talk was very very interesting.

350
00:37:49,339 --> 00:37:52,270
Can you give us the 
title of your book please.

351
00:37:52,270 --> 00:37:56,610
Simon: Oh yeah, Google my 
name. It's available in your

352
00:37:56,610 --> 00:38:05,879
local bookstore or if you want Amazon. It
still available but not many copies left.

353
00:38:06,919 --> 00:38:13,789
It's just Top Secret and then Simon Menner. My family
doesn't write that many books.

354
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:21,280
Host: thank you.
Audience member: Would you be so kind to

355
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,280
show us back that photo with the Coyote

356
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:32,890
ugly and American flag because I thought
I saw Yugoslav air transport logo on the...

357
00:38:32,889 --> 00:38:41,279
There you see it. He flew with, 
now it's called Air Serbia.

358
00:38:41,279 --> 00:38:51,000
Simon: Yeah that must have been the reason 
Audience member: I just wanted to check that out thanks

359
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,110
Host: We have a question from the internet.

360
00:38:54,110 --> 00:39:01,090
Internet host: Yes Frankie2 is asking how 
does this compare to todays surveillance?

361
00:39:01,090 --> 00:39:08,190
Simon: The problem is, in a way, that's a 
treasure trove but it's a very weird one.

362
00:39:08,190 --> 00:39:15,039
If I could freely choose what material
to look at I would definitely try

363
00:39:15,039 --> 00:39:18,679
to look at the last two weeks of
NSA surveillance like we all would.

364
00:39:18,679 --> 00:39:23,799
but unfortunately that is 
as close as as we can get

365
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:29,910
to this kind of material. Keep in
mind, back in its day the Stasi was

366
00:39:29,909 --> 00:39:34,389
at least as sophisticated
as the BND. In fact there were

367
00:39:34,389 --> 00:39:40,909
more advanced in the technologies 
they used. The Stasi would definitely use

368
00:39:40,909 --> 00:39:45,299
the same techniques BND and CIA

369
00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:51,430
and everyone else uses today. They would
try to listen in on our phone conversations.

370
00:39:51,430 --> 00:39:57,610
That might not be the right material to look at
it from a technological point of view

371
00:39:57,610 --> 00:40:02,870
but I think this material is very interesting and
important if you want to find something

372
00:40:02,869 --> 00:40:09,819
out about their state of mind. Which
is absurd but keep in mind the excuse

373
00:40:09,820 --> 00:40:15,019
you hear from the NSA. They just want to
protect the law and that's why they are

374
00:40:15,019 --> 00:40:19,839
breaking the law. That's an excuse you
regularly find with the Stasi as well.

375
00:40:19,839 --> 00:40:24,590
You find parallels and that's why
it's important to look at this material

376
00:40:24,590 --> 00:40:31,220
even though it's very old. The whole 
archive consists somewhere

377
00:40:31,219 --> 00:40:37,020
between one and two million 
photographs which absurdly little

378
00:40:37,020 --> 00:40:40,810
if you think that the system was in 
operation for almost 40 years.

379
00:40:40,810 --> 00:40:43,790
That's fifty thousand 
pictures a year and they had

380
00:40:43,790 --> 00:40:49,829
85,000 agents. From todays standards
that's nothing but today they would be

381
00:40:49,829 --> 00:40:53,519
far more sophisticated I guess.

382
00:40:53,519 --> 00:40:56,769
Host: We have a question over there

383
00:40:56,769 --> 00:41:00,489
Audience member: Firstly, thank you for your talk.

384
00:41:00,489 --> 00:41:06,050
You showed that some of this information had
been destroyed or at least attempts were

385
00:41:06,050 --> 00:41:11,990
made to destroy and much of it was but
there's a still a lot left to look through.

386
00:41:11,990 --> 00:41:17,780
What happens in future generations when, 
given that now surveillance is done all

387
00:41:17,780 --> 00:41:25,220
digitally, the Stasi had some number of weeks
from when the wall fell to when they had actually

388
00:41:25,219 --> 00:41:30,299
disband and they had time to to to destroy
things. Given how quickly and easy

389
00:41:30,300 --> 00:41:35,430
it is to erase digital information 
what would you say to the people

390
00:41:35,429 --> 00:41:36,489
coming after you,

391
00:41:36,489 --> 00:41:40,529
future generations who might want to try
and find similar things in dissolved

392
00:41:40,530 --> 00:41:43,499
surveillance organizations. 
Are they completely stuffed?

393
00:41:43,499 --> 00:41:45,119
Simon: Unless there is going to be a

394
00:41:45,119 --> 00:41:49,700
revolution they are not going to be able to
look at anything that would be my guess.

395
00:41:49,700 --> 00:41:53,590
You need this abrupt 
shift in the whole system

396
00:41:53,590 --> 00:42:02,010
that decapitates this operation and so they 
lost everything and now it's frozen in time.

397
00:42:02,010 --> 00:42:06,730
The guy at the BND told me it's 
up to us to decide what we reveal and

398
00:42:06,730 --> 00:42:12,739
what not because we have a veto. 
Of course nothing is then revealed, ever.

399
00:42:12,739 --> 00:42:18,139
As long as this stays the policy 
and it is the policy currently

400
00:42:18,139 --> 00:42:21,639
everywhere from what I understand you're

401
00:42:21,639 --> 00:42:30,200
not going to be able to look at anything.
I'm not very optimistic in that respect.

402
00:42:31,190 --> 00:42:34,190
Audience member: Hello, thanks for your talk.

403
00:42:34,190 --> 00:42:39,730
How did you decide what faces 
to anonymise and which not to?

404
00:42:39,730 --> 00:42:48,110
Simon: With the Czech Republic archive images 
I did it and that's weird you can do

405
00:42:48,110 --> 00:42:52,069
whatever you want 
which is terrible in a way.

406
00:42:52,069 --> 00:42:56,219
The Stasi images, the archive 
had to decide and it decided

407
00:42:56,219 --> 00:43:02,199
on the basis when you work in
an official position, in the German law

408
00:43:02,199 --> 00:43:07,789
when you work in an official position in
times of historical importance

409
00:43:07,789 --> 00:43:10,359
like that you lose your privacy rights.

410
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:15,210
You don't share the same privacy rights.
So once we could find written evidence

411
00:43:15,210 --> 00:43:25,639
that the person shown in the image was
working for the Stasi they lost the

412
00:43:25,639 --> 00:43:31,259
right to privacy. If the slightest doubt
remained it had to be pixeled so it wasn't

413
00:43:31,260 --> 00:43:36,939
done by me. The German privacy 
rights are very strict.

414
00:43:38,039 --> 00:43:42,179
Audience member: You said when you talked

415
00:43:42,179 --> 00:43:46,369
about surveillance watching each other
and surveilling each other that this

416
00:43:46,369 --> 00:43:51,679
would be something like the highest state
of surveillance but in a sense don't you

417
00:43:51,679 --> 00:43:54,969
think there's now a much higher state and
also that before things were much more

418
00:43:54,969 --> 00:43:58,799
clear. Everybody knew that there was a
regime trying to stay in power and tried to

419
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:04,359
put down everybody. Now
wouldn't it be a situation where they don't

420
00:44:04,358 --> 00:44:07,869
even have to break the law, they just
make it legal to surveil. We can see in

421
00:44:07,869 --> 00:44:12,739
France now with the law on
intelligence that passed just after the Charlie

422
00:44:12,739 --> 00:44:18,138
murders and now we've got the murders
again and you've got people that have to

423
00:44:18,138 --> 00:44:21,558
stay in their homes because the
intelligence has said that they might

424
00:44:21,559 --> 00:44:24,380
protest and they don't have to go
through a Judge. They're actually

425
00:44:24,380 --> 00:44:29,849
making it legal and not even have to
break the law and also where people

426
00:44:29,849 --> 00:44:32,630
actually surveil each other.

427
00:44:32,630 --> 00:44:42,298
Simon: That's Facebook today. 
The general problem with

428
00:44:42,298 --> 00:44:47,809
surveillance operations I would argue and 
hope someone from the BND is here

429
00:44:47,809 --> 00:44:54,568
to come forward and talk to them because 
it would really like to find out.

430
00:44:57,078 --> 00:45:02,909
I would argue that this type of surveillance
cannot work. What you're trying to find

431
00:45:02,909 --> 00:45:10,018
proof for is a state of mind, his thoughts.
It's not something you did but some things

432
00:45:10,018 --> 00:45:15,170
you think about or you 
think you might want to do.

433
00:45:15,170 --> 00:45:18,170
I'm a photographer and I know 
how bad photography is.

434
00:45:18,170 --> 00:45:24,979
You were looking at images of landscape where no
sniper was visible and each one of you saw it.

435
00:45:24,979 --> 00:45:31,339
That's how bad photography is as an
evidence and this can be proved for

436
00:45:31,338 --> 00:45:37,699
everything and nothing. Could be proof.

437
00:45:37,699 --> 00:45:40,969
Audience member: They just write a paper 
to the police and he just says okay they're


438
00:45:40,969 --> 00:45:43,489
dangerous and they have to stay at home.

439
00:45:43,489 --> 00:45:54,068
Simon: Yes but they need proof or evidence 
for now. You leave behind such a trail of

440
00:45:54,068 --> 00:45:58,349
evidence yourself that could be 
read somewhere in the future.

441
00:45:58,349 --> 00:46:03,950
What happens in 10 years 
when the US like smoking and

442
00:46:03,949 --> 00:46:08,449
drinking isn't socially acceptable anymore. 
What happens to you then with

443
00:46:08,449 --> 00:46:17,660
your Facebook entry that's twenty 
years old then, it's a weird system.

444
00:46:17,660 --> 00:46:20,349
Host: We have another 
question from the internet

445
00:46:20,349 --> 00:46:23,130
Internet host: Yes somebody from from IRC


446
00:46:23,130 --> 00:46:27,210
is asking if you have tried 
to contact other agencies.

447
00:46:27,210 --> 00:46:35,210
Simon: Yes, like the BND which was not 
very successful. With these spies taking pictures of

448
00:46:35,210 --> 00:46:39,599
spies I tried with the British. I know
these pictures still exists. I know where

449
00:46:39,599 --> 00:46:49,299
they exist but, sorry. Czech Republic I
was asked by the Institute to

450
00:46:49,300 --> 00:46:54,049
approach them but it was very difficult
that's too lengthy to explain now.

451
00:46:54,049 --> 00:46:56,560
It was very difficult working with them

452
00:46:56,559 --> 00:47:02,700
language wise and because of the
structure of the archive itself.

453
00:47:02,700 --> 00:47:07,859
They were very open and so if you want to do
more research on something like that

454
00:47:07,858 --> 00:47:13,598
go to the Czech Republic's first because
it's much easier to work with them on

455
00:47:13,599 --> 00:47:20,760
the bureaucratic level than with the Germans
but the Germans in a way are more organized.

456
00:47:22,190 --> 00:47:26,189
That's the Germans!

457
00:47:29,999 --> 00:47:34,519
Audience member: How hard was it to get the 
material although it is not classified any more

458
00:47:34,519 --> 00:47:37,519
how much time did you invest?

459
00:47:37,519 --> 00:47:40,869
Simon: The hardest time was 
waiting periods in between

460
00:47:40,869 --> 00:47:45,700
requests because German 
bureaucracy takes forever.

461
00:47:45,699 --> 00:47:52,669
I'm from West Germany but now I have a huge 
file in this archive because they compile everything so

462
00:47:52,670 --> 00:47:57,700
they keep track of every picture you
looking at. The funny thing is

463
00:47:57,699 --> 00:48:02,808
it's not hard. You can do it as well.
You don't have to be a researcher and

464
00:48:02,809 --> 00:48:08,140
the archive considers research a basic
human right which I learned then and it's

465
00:48:08,139 --> 00:48:15,558
a very convenient thing. There are some elderly
former Stasi agents who spend their retirement researching.

466
00:48:15,559 --> 00:48:22,730
something, they can do it. The weird
thing was that most of the pictures

467
00:48:22,730 --> 00:48:26,159
no one's looked at before. That could be
proven because they keep track of

468
00:48:26,159 --> 00:48:34,439
everything. It's very easy, very
lengthy process but very easy.

469
00:48:34,439 --> 00:48:37,680
Audience member: When you decided 
to visit the archives did you

470
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:42,030
have to apply for a certain 
corner in the archive

471
00:48:42,030 --> 00:48:45,219
or could you just walk in and 
say show me all your pictures?

472
00:48:45,219 --> 00:48:48,909
Simon: No, it was very 
open they might have

473
00:48:48,909 --> 00:48:55,739
closed off behind me somewhat because
for them it was strangely overwhelming the

474
00:48:55,739 --> 00:49:01,519
amount of feedback they got after my book
came out and they want to be left alone I think.

475
00:49:01,518 --> 00:49:16,578
You have to formulate a theme quite 
clearly for me but since this was new

476
00:49:16,579 --> 00:49:24,098
back then, for them as well, it was surveillance 
and photography which is a very broad topic.

477
00:49:24,098 --> 00:49:31,380
Now they received quite a few requests like 
we want to see what Simon Menners saw

478
00:49:31,380 --> 00:49:35,550
and they don't accept something like this. So
you have to come up with something more clever.

479
00:49:35,559 --> 00:49:38,559
Audience member: How much time 
did you spend in their dungeons?

480
00:49:38,559 --> 00:49:48,070
Simon: Three years on and off but it's 
mostly waiting in between so be patient.

481
00:49:49,559 --> 00:49:55,980
Audience member: Modern state agencies 
including NSA and BND have this mentality of

482
00:49:55,980 --> 00:50:01,329
collect all passive intelligence and
has this ability to minimize the impact

483
00:50:01,329 --> 00:50:05,449
of the damage that there's no human eyes
looking at specific piece of surveillance.

484
00:50:05,449 --> 00:50:10,699
Of course we know this is not true
and they can zero in when they want to.

485
00:50:10,699 --> 00:50:15,730
As an archivist how do you 
try to understand the

486
00:50:15,730 --> 00:50:20,619
state of mind when you have so much data,
possibly unprocessed data, and how do you

487
00:50:20,619 --> 00:50:25,089
get into the mind of filtering through
this bureaucratic censorship of not just

488
00:50:25,090 --> 00:50:28,349
no documents but a 
hundred million documents.

489
00:50:28,349 --> 00:50:30,659
Simon: One has to be

490
00:50:30,659 --> 00:50:35,699
very careful with such material because
you look through their eyes and that's

491
00:50:35,699 --> 00:50:42,589
dangerous and that's why I try not to
provide that much "background

492
00:50:42,590 --> 00:50:46,809
information" because the "background
information" and most of the images has

493
00:50:46,809 --> 00:50:55,160
text complied by Stasi agents so theres 
already guilty or not guilty written in the text.

494
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:59,769
I don't want to look at these pictures 
through their eyes but still I find it very

495
00:50:59,769 --> 00:51:04,550
revealing to look at the raw 
material and the Stasi would have

496
00:51:04,550 --> 00:51:11,220
collected everything in bulk if they would have been
able. They opened every parcel to East

497
00:51:11,219 --> 00:51:20,489
Germany, every letter. Paranoia wise they 
were several steps ahead of the NSA.

498
00:51:20,489 --> 00:51:26,390
They had a university and when studying 
there you could do your PhD but you

499
00:51:26,390 --> 00:51:28,630
were not allowed to keep your notes

500
00:51:28,630 --> 00:51:35,700
you took during the day. They had to be
locked into lockers that had doors on two sides.

501
00:51:35,700 --> 00:51:39,140
You lock them in and they will copy
that night and you were not allowed to

502
00:51:39,139 --> 00:51:44,099
keep your PhD thesis because the moment
you wrote it was classified top secret

503
00:51:44,099 --> 00:51:49,440
and that's paranoia. It really is paranoia.

504
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:54,079
I cannot prove it and that's
the problem with the whole thing,

505
00:51:54,079 --> 00:51:56,019
one side remains closed.

506
00:51:56,019 --> 00:52:01,949
You cannot prove otherwise. 
My guess would be they're quite

507
00:52:01,949 --> 00:52:04,720
happy with the situation, that 
you cannot prove otherwise.

508
00:52:04,720 --> 00:52:08,690
Because they can always 
say we did something else.

509
00:52:08,690 --> 00:52:18,709
Well we can't tell you but not like this. It's always 
very weak but from the state of mind insane.

510
00:52:20,479 --> 00:52:23,030
Audience member: What is the 
copyright of these pictures?

511
00:52:23,030 --> 00:52:27,279
Are they public domain, can I 
use them for internet memes?

512
00:52:27,279 --> 00:52:33,349
Simon: Well no. Unfortunately most of 
the pictures on my website are low resolution

513
00:52:33,349 --> 00:52:37,969
which the archive doesn't like but it's there.

514
00:52:37,969 --> 00:52:42,389
The problem is there's a law that covers
this archive. It's not part of the

515
00:52:42,389 --> 00:52:47,848
archive sphere in Germany, it has its own
law and the law was written early

516
00:52:47,849 --> 00:52:54,440
90's by lawmakers. We all know them
and love them. They never thought about

517
00:52:54,440 --> 00:53:02,379
the fact that an artist might come along
and show them. So the law covers publication.

518
00:53:02,379 --> 00:53:10,810
Once you have access to the archive 
you are allowed to publicize it.

519
00:53:10,810 --> 00:53:15,300
Nothing else is stated. But
you're not allowed to hand over the

520
00:53:15,300 --> 00:53:22,920
files and I had lengthy debates with the
archive what that could mean because it

521
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:30,690
when you have it on their website you hand 
out the files - it;s publicizing it. No no no no.

522
00:53:30,690 --> 00:53:39,619
I said what's the difference? We don't 
really know but.... Tricky.

523
00:53:39,619 --> 00:53:46,060
And so many people copied it from my
website which I think is good.

524
00:53:46,060 --> 00:53:51,620
Host: Having a look at my watch I think we have one
more question here two here.

525
00:53:51,620 --> 00:53:56,308
Simon: I'm here the next three days look at me I
might not remember your face but you

526
00:53:56,308 --> 00:54:01,528
might remember my bald head so talk to me

527
00:54:01,528 --> 00:54:05,278
Audience member: Were you able to 
access files other than images?

528
00:54:05,278 --> 00:54:07,608
Audio recordings of this phone 
surveillance for example?

529
00:54:07,608 --> 00:54:10,449
Simon: That's a very tricky thing. 
You could listen to those

530
00:54:10,449 --> 00:54:17,050
but getting them is almost impossible 
because German privacy laws again.

531
00:54:17,050 --> 00:54:24,278
Their argument is whenever you speak you

532
00:54:24,278 --> 00:54:30,440
could reveal something private and that's 
their argument even though you might be

533
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:36,068
Erich Honecker or Helmut Kohl 
but still it could be private

534
00:54:36,068 --> 00:54:41,849
what you're saying. That's why they
could never release something, you would

535
00:54:41,849 --> 00:54:47,480
never be allowed to release its stating
thats Erich Honecker because it could be private.

536
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:58,070
So it's a strange law but no one's
going to change it any more.

537
00:54:58,090 --> 00:55:01,130
Host: And the last question over here

538
00:55:01,130 --> 00:55:06,680
Audience member: I'm interested how you 
always know what shown by the photographs?

539
00:55:06,679 --> 00:55:13,929
Were there captions like spy spying on spy or
brought about by an explanation by yourself?

540
00:55:13,929 --> 00:55:21,828
Simon: It's gazillions of kilometres of
files and just a very few photographs so

541
00:55:21,829 --> 00:55:25,990
there's always a huge amount of
background information. The greatest

542
00:55:25,989 --> 00:55:34,919
thing and I am absolutely thankful
towards, it was only ladies working at the

543
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:40,510
archive, really at the archive handing
me the files and giving me the copies because

544
00:55:40,510 --> 00:55:45,609
the most important thing and whenever 
you want to work with an

545
00:55:45,608 --> 00:55:49,679
archive the trickiest part is how do
you find something you don't know exists.

546
00:55:49,679 --> 00:55:54,379
Because you can't ask for it. I'm really
looking for...

547
00:55:54,380 --> 00:56:00,510
is there a birthday party? You will never
ask for something like this but once

548
00:56:00,510 --> 00:56:06,000
you've earned the trust of the people working at
the archive they provide you and provided

549
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:13,050
me with these images because they knew in
which direction I was looking for material.

550
00:56:13,050 --> 00:56:19,539
There was always in most cases 
there was background information.

551
00:56:19,539 --> 00:56:26,929
There's a weird set of a dead swan
which I didn't include in the talk.

552
00:56:26,929 --> 00:56:32,210
It's a set of 4 images of a dead
swan. It was only known that it was found

553
00:56:32,210 --> 00:56:37,920
in the vault that was owned by Erich 
Mielke the head of Stasi personally.

554
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:40,920
It's four images of a 
grave of a dead swan with

555
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:46,769
GDR flags around it. That's very
famous for being the biggest mystery in

556
00:56:46,769 --> 00:56:51,960
the Stasi files because nothing can 
be found about these images.

557
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:55,539
I didn't include them in the talk but 
it's a dead swan, very mysterious.

558
00:56:55,539 --> 00:56:58,539
Must have been important!

559
00:56:59,439 --> 00:57:02,800
Host: So thank you Simon very, very much.

560
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:08,264
[Audience applause]