0:00:08.970,0:00:12.529
Host: What does Big Brother [br]see, while he is watching?

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Simon Menner is talking to [br]you about this and uncovering

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images from the secret Stasi archives. He[br]was born 1978 in Southern Germany and

0:00:23.489,0:00:27.399
now he lives and works in Berlin.

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He does a lot of stuff [br]with photography and

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history and he has been researching for[br]three years in Stasi files and images

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and he is going to show us why this is[br]still relevant today or even maybe more

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relevant than ever.[br]Give him a warm welcome.

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[Audience applause]

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I was told to use this rather than the [br]lavalier mics so I hope it works.

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First a disclaimer - I'm an [br]artist. I'm not a historian

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so my approach to the [br]material I'm going to show is

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somewhat different from what you [br]might expect from a regular historian

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but we can discuss this as we go on.[br]Very briefly before I am going to

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show you images I found at the archive[br]of the Stasi and some very few

0:01:26.890,0:01:29.570
archives I found at the BND.

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I'm going to show you three bodies of work [br]that brought me to my interest in the Stasi.

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I am a trained artist, I'm a [br]photographer and normally I'm

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doing things like this and [br]I'm very interested in the

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relationship of what perception does [br]within the context of modern conflict.

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It turns out more importantly perception[br]is a battlefield and fear is a weapon.

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This is not just a set of landscape[br]images it is actually set of photographs

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for which I had support of the German[br]army. They supported me with snipers.

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They were hiding in the landscape aiming[br]at the camera and therefore at the viewer.

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So the sniper would be and in most of the[br]pictures from the series there's actually

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almost no trace to be seen from the[br]sniper but this is the way a sniper

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looks within the landscape.

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They were ordered to aim at me even [br]though I couldn't see them sometimes.

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When were posing I [br]told them well just don't

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hide behind a tree so I don't see you.[br]They told me "no no don't worry we are

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aiming at you"[br][Audience laughs]

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Of course the whole thing is[br]artificial because they would

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never choose this kind of setting and[br]this kind of environment to posed a

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threat - there's a sniper here or [br]here but this is something that

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really plays an important [br]role in today's conflicts.

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You try to occupy your [br]opponents mind and influence

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his or her behaviour in that [br]way through creating fear.

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That's another set of images. It's [br]based on books by the US army

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on how to construct booby [br]traps out of ordinary objects.

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Here a TV set or radio if it is switched [br]it on its blows up. A box or pipe.

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As an artist I find this image very [br]intriguing because there is one

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famous painting by [br]Magritte; 'this is not a pipe'.

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Actually this is not a pipe. [br]It's supposed to look like a pipe

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But be aware that from the sixties[br]from the US army and these handbooks are

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now out there and used by opposing[br]forces they encounter and the whole

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story behind these manuals is you're [br]supposed to create fear in your opponent.

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Here is a German chocolate bar. Break it [br]off it blows up in your face or a tea kettle.

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The more ordinary the objects [br]are the more terrifying it becomes

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because once you realize that[br]there's no way for you to avoid this

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idea of fear, everything is dangerous.

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The other side does this as well. [br]This is from videos I found online.

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This is the last video frame[br]before the blast. The last frame

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before car bomb, roadside bomb or[br]something like this explodes.

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The same here. It's the same technique.

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The more research I did on this big topic [br]of fear and perception within conflict

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I started to think more and more about the[br]topic of surveillance because the

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interesting aspect would be to look at[br]images of surveillance because that

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would show us these [br]mechanisms from the other side.

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But the strange thing is we talked so much about[br]surveillance and much of what we talked

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about is image based so big brother is[br]watching you. That has something to do

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with images but we take it for granted[br]that there's nothing for us to see.

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Big Brother is watching us but [br]it's hidden behind some curtains.

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I came to realize that actually [br]with the unique history of

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Germany we have this huge opportunity[br]in the Stasi archives that are accessible to

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the public to try to show what Big Brother[br]actually sees and I approached them

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because I could only find written[br]references to images they have and could

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never find images, do they still [br]exist and they said sure come over.

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And that was the start of a [br]three-year research project.

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First I am going to show you images I was

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in the end not really interested in.[br]Images we know exist and from now on

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that's authentic Stasi material. There [br]some from the Czech Republic CSR.

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I'll point them out and there some from [br]the BND and I'll point those out as well.

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That is something we expect to see.[br]Shots taken through button holes and

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surveillance in the streets. That's[br]the US embassy in East Berlin

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and the entrance doors were under [br]constant surveillance with photo

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cameras and video cameras. Be aware[br]in the 80's video equipment was not that

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sophisticated so at night time the Stasi[br]recorded eight hours of darkness but

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it still ended up at the files. That's[br]the state of mind we're talking about so

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everyone was photographed. Quite [br]often we find post boxes where each and

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everyone who's posting a letter is[br]photographed no matter who he or she is.

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Even if it's an elderly lady. Remember[br]these images because I'm going to

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reference them later. I was more[br]interested in something like this.

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The internal view. Roughly two [br]years ago I was able to

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publish a book and now I'm going to[br]follow the structure within the book

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because I was really interested in how[br]do you become a spy and encounted a lot of

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material that was meant for training[br]purposes. These images are from a

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training session on how to disguise[br]yourself as regular citizens.

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Which I found strange because [br]normally that's nothing you should

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have to learn, but still. Then you[br]have a soldier, these ordinary citizens.

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Some of them look like they live now in [br]Berlin amongst the hipsters like this one.

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That's entitled 'The Western tourist'.

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Now the tourists is like the photographer [br]so the Stasi photograph something

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that tries to look like a photographer.

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Women worked for the Stasi as [br]well and so the same thing

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So disguising manuals - what do you[br]need to dress up like this and in what

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circumstances would you use something[br]like this. He looks like Hitchhiker's Guide

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to the Galaxy I think. Be aware that's [br]not meant to be funny that was

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not meant to be seen by anyone.[br]That was meant to train agents and we

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are going to see later that was actually[br]used. Here we have a hitchhiker at a motorway

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around Berlin and that's from the[br]CSR archives which I was granted access to

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earlier this year. They did the [br]same thing. It's not just

0:09:26.889,0:09:34.179
something the Stasi did, they did it as[br]well. Then you had other aspects of

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disguise like how to wear a wig. [br]How to stick a fake moustache.

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Due to privacy concerns the images [br]had to be pixelated but I could see

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the faces while researching the [br]archives. Much funnier actually.

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Again from the CSR you [br]could also disguise cars.

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You could draw something that's [br]from a from a steel mill in the CSR.

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And then, a disguised stroller [br]with a video camera.

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It's actually a video camera from [br]Japan and they imported

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this type of surveillance equipment [br]quite frequently. And then you

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encounter other material like how to transmit [br]secret signals and how to transmit codes.

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The codes are not known now[br]but still the photos exist and they have a

0:10:49.549,0:10:56.509
strange beauty in them. Once you[br]got your training and then you have to

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be taught how maybe to arrest someone.

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You first knock the door [br]and then you arrest him.

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Notice the piece of cloth on the floor because [br]he didn't want to ruin his white shirt.

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Maybe he wants to fight so you [br]have to fight. [Audience laughs]

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But the Stasi always wins. Again[br]they CSR took things very seriously.

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Things there seem to be escalating much[br]quicker so you have to shoot people.

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Again it quickly escalates and he has[br]to be shot. When you know that

0:11:43.870,0:11:49.779
you have to be taught how to to follow[br]people around. Sometimes you

0:11:49.779,0:11:53.769
find very elaborate stories where you[br]follow people around. Just a very

0:11:53.769,0:11:59.360
short exception. So she's at the bakery[br]and then she goes to a doctor's office

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which is already something Stasi maybe [br]shouldn't know and then she does a phone call.

0:12:06.539,0:12:10.339
Here you see she's smiling at the[br]camera of course the whole thing is

0:12:10.340,0:12:14.900
staged for colleagues but this is[br]sometimes very lengthy.

0:12:14.900,0:12:20.580
You see this guy shopping and then shopping [br]and walking Alexanderplatz, meeting

0:12:20.580,0:12:28.600
another guy. It's like a photo love story. [br]Then they take the car and he gets out the car in

0:12:28.600,0:12:33.480
the middle of the woods and he walks. [br]Another car comes and then they meet and

0:12:33.480,0:12:38.069
why did you take such pictures. [br]What's the point of that but still

0:12:38.069,0:12:43.350
that ends up at the archive and [br]is part of the training operation.

0:12:43.350,0:12:51.810
So now the training is done and this [br]then is a real surveillance photograph.

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The black arrow, that's supposedly [br]the person they were shadowing.

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Then you see we are [br]not in the training manual

0:13:00.419,0:13:06.280
but we are already one step ahead [br]and that's then the real material.

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He or she is followed [br]around the country and again

0:13:12.029,0:13:19.129
Czech Republic you have ordinary[br]citizens being shadowed entering a house.

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With the shadowing comes also the breach[br]of privacy and here we have the room of

0:13:28.450,0:13:36.259
a teenager which looks very innocent to[br]us but I'm very positive that, I guess

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it's a guy, he never entered university in[br]East Germany. Due to the fact that they

0:13:42.450,0:13:48.759
could prove that he was a fan of Wily[br]Coyote and the United States or so they

0:13:48.759,0:13:54.250
thought they could prove. They took[br]such images as evidence for your

0:13:54.250,0:13:58.740
thinking which is a problem of a[br]surveillance operation I would argue.

0:13:58.740,0:14:03.269
Here we have what might [br]be the biggest Madonna fan

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in all of communist Eastern Europe.

0:14:08.129,0:14:17.780
Same thing. Probably would never [br]be able to study law or medicine.

0:14:17.780,0:14:26.830
You frequently have images[br]such as this and that was classified as

0:14:26.830,0:14:32.270
Western pornography and the funny thing[br]about this classification is very

0:14:32.269,0:14:36.569
often you find files that [br]read Western pornography

0:14:36.569,0:14:40.329
and the photographs are missing. [br][Audience laughs]

0:14:40.329,0:14:46.198
Someone went to this apartment,[br]documented everything, archived it maybe

0:14:46.198,0:14:50.729
the guy was prosecuted and when there[br]was no one was looking they took the pictures.

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Which then shows the [br]absurd nature of the system.

0:14:58.570,0:15:03.290
For me this is a very key [br]image, it's a set of images

0:15:03.290,0:15:05.980
but that's actually one of the images

0:15:05.980,0:15:12.570
that brought me to contacting the Stasi[br]archives. I read about those images.

0:15:12.570,0:15:17.849
This is a Polaroid as you can see by the[br]white background and as a matter of

0:15:17.850,0:15:23.800
fact Stasi frequency purchased Polaroid[br]films or confiscated Polaroid film sent

0:15:23.799,0:15:28.049
to East Germany and the reason for that[br]was when they broke into people's homes

0:15:28.049,0:15:32.919
and you should never find out, the[br]easiest thing was you break-in, you look

0:15:32.919,0:15:39.059
around, what looks interesting you take a[br]Polaroid and with that you are able to put

0:15:39.059,0:15:42.610
everything back in its original position.

0:15:42.610,0:15:46.850
This is an absolute brutal [br]image because that shows

0:15:46.850,0:15:52.089
the deepest possible breach [br]of privacy imaginable.

0:15:52.089,0:15:56.948
And most people in fact never found out [br]that their apartment was searched and that

0:15:56.948,0:16:03.078
was absolutely illegal even in East [br]Germany and it was very revealing last year

0:16:03.078,0:16:07.870
a German TV station thought it's a good[br]idea to hook me up with a former Stasi

0:16:07.870,0:16:16.809
general and I told him about the Polaroid's [br]and he said "Yeah but please keep in mind

0:16:16.809,0:16:22.759
I never broke into people's apartments."[br]I said did you order it?

0:16:22.759,0:16:28.958
"Yes I ordered it but I never broke into[br]people's houses" I thought what stupid excuse is that?

0:16:28.958,0:16:33.119
Who then is responsible because normally[br]the excuse is always I was ordered to do it

0:16:33.120,0:16:39.318
and his excuse was I just ordered them, I[br]don't really... why would they do it. I

0:16:39.318,0:16:43.009
just ordered it. It was not my intention.

0:16:43.009,0:16:48.739
That was revealing to me the state [br]of mind within such a system.

0:16:48.739,0:16:54.550
So you have folders and [br]folders of those Polaroids

0:16:54.550,0:16:59.050
and when they found something[br]incriminating they might have returned a

0:16:59.049,0:17:02.719
few days later with the police and[br]search warrant because they needed a

0:17:02.720,0:17:10.588
search warrant even in East Germany. [br]Now we realize that even though it looks

0:17:10.588,0:17:15.529
funny the way they disguise themselves[br]it's meant seriously and it's a terrible

0:17:15.529,0:17:20.000
brutal system. Which you also see in these[br]images from the CSR where people

0:17:20.000,0:17:27.449
are forced to stage their own attempt of[br]fleeing the country. They were made to stage

0:17:27.449,0:17:34.250
the thing they were arrested for, even a[br]young child was made to re-enact their

0:17:34.250,0:17:40.219
failed attempt to flee the country. [br]And that is brutal.

0:17:40.219,0:17:49.449
Sometimes you find images that are completely [br]out of any category. Like a guinea pig.

0:17:49.449,0:17:55.750
I told you earlier to remember[br]the postbox with the old lady.

0:17:55.750,0:18:01.400
That's an image from one of those[br]files so you have a surveillance

0:18:01.400,0:18:09.090
operation of a post boxes, you see its taken [br]from a high angle maybe out of a private apartment and

0:18:09.089,0:18:16.000
then you have shot after shot and then two[br]pictures of these guinea pig and then

0:18:16.000,0:18:21.359
the surveillance operation continues. [br]What I read out of that is he was in a

0:18:21.359,0:18:31.539
private apartment and was bored. He[br]lies flat on the ground, takes two shots and

0:18:31.539,0:18:36.289
then continues the surveillance operation[br]knowing that the material is going to

0:18:36.289,0:18:45.150
end up at the archive and gets his archive [br]number. That's German bureaucracy I guess.

0:18:45.150,0:18:51.250
Very revealing. So who are these guys?[br]That's actually a British spy.

0:18:51.250,0:18:56.990
There were some officially registered [br]Western spies within Eastern Germany.

0:18:56.990,0:19:04.720
The Russians had the same thing for West Germany [br]and the Stasi's job was to folow and document what

0:19:04.720,0:19:08.889
they were doing. They couldn't do [br]anything to them, only document.

0:19:08.889,0:19:13.200
You find many of these images. [br]Like a spy taking a picture of a

0:19:13.200,0:19:19.910
spy in an endless circle of surveillance. [br]What's very revealing is the fact

0:19:19.910,0:19:28.330
that I tried to gain access to their[br]material - it's still classified.

0:19:28.329,0:19:35.528
I'm very positive I know what the image[br]shows. It's pretty much the same thing.

0:19:35.528,0:19:40.890
I tried to understand what these[br]people are thinking but it turns out

0:19:40.890,0:19:46.939
even though they were fighting each other they [br]seem to share a very common state of mind.

0:19:46.939,0:19:53.350
That looks like the endpoint [br]of surveillance, no its not.

0:19:53.350,0:20:00.280
It's one step further. It's Stasi agents [br]watching Stasi agents watching other people.

0:20:00.280,0:20:03.989
That's a triangle of surveillance.

0:20:03.989,0:20:10.418
Common as well. Never be sure[br]about your colleagues. They could be up to

0:20:10.419,0:20:15.750
something so better spy on them as well.

0:20:15.750,0:20:21.630
I present you the absolute [br]endpoint of surveillance which is

0:20:21.630,0:20:30.410
the surveillance selfie. [br][Audience laughs and applauds]

0:20:32.920,0:20:36.230
I give you another one.

0:20:36.230,0:20:41.910
They knew it was going to end up at the archives.

0:20:41.910,0:20:52.159
So they are spying on themselves, spying on other [br]while spying on themselves. It's almost medative.

0:20:52.159,0:20:58.669
Who are these people? Now we are at the [br]internal view. The Stasi looks at itself.

0:20:58.669,0:21:03.140
Here's a group photo. Remember this [br]guy, we encounter him later.

0:21:03.140,0:21:06.930
That happens to be the [br]phone surveillance unit.

0:21:06.930,0:21:13.550
Highest-ranking officials here, that's[br]the boss of the whole bunch and of

0:21:13.549,0:21:19.929
course the Stasi, it's Eastern Europe they[br]like medals and awards ceremony.

0:21:19.929,0:21:23.959
Flowers, a medal a piece of paper.

0:21:23.959,0:21:32.869
This guy again and he gets really shaby[br]flowers and a piece of paper.

0:21:32.869,0:21:39.669
That's odd - see the wax seal [br]and it is burned at the side.

0:21:39.669,0:21:47.079
Because he was knighted. A knight [br]of the phone surveillance unit.

0:21:53.619,0:22:01.509
To the non Germans that's a [br]symbol of a code of law in Germany.

0:22:05.039,0:22:08.419
He knew they were breaking the law

0:22:08.419,0:22:15.048
and they're mocking it with this[br]ceremony so now you are the knight of

0:22:15.048,0:22:19.970
the phones surveillance unit. [br]Congratulations hahaha what a good joke.

0:22:19.970,0:22:29.490
Another set of images which is very revealing is this.[br]Strange finding in the Stasi archive.

0:22:29.490,0:22:35.940
A strange combination. See the bishop[br]and the soccer player and back there

0:22:35.940,0:22:43.739
with the blue shirt. That's a Party Youth[br]member and then see the ballerina.

0:22:43.739,0:22:52.069
Strange. The guy in a suit; it's his[br]birthday and he's the boss of them.

0:22:52.069,0:22:57.388
These are all highest-ranking Stasi[br]officials and they surprise him with a

0:22:57.388,0:23:04.719
birthday party and the surprise is to dress up[br]as those people you put under surveillance.

0:23:06.380,0:23:15.048
Party Youth, soccer player, the[br]ballerina. Beautiful, very beautiful

0:23:15.048,0:23:19.240
Soccer fan. Of course you have to put[br]them under surveillance.

0:23:19.240,0:23:28.059
A doctor. Of course who cares [br]about a right to be quiet of doctors.

0:23:28.059,0:23:32.579
A judge, you have to put a [br]judge under surveillance.

0:23:32.579,0:23:40.089
Then there is this dress up. Hardly [br]to be understood outside Germany.

0:23:40.089,0:23:45.428
He's dressed up as a peace activist

0:23:45.429,0:23:52.490
and he wears this 'sword to ploughshares' [br]sticker at his head and some other peace

0:23:52.490,0:23:56.759
stickers there and he [br]is very proud of himself.

0:23:56.759,0:24:01.339
Why, because it was [br]such a successful costume.

0:24:02.719,0:24:11.200
I think where did he get the costume[br]from. The easiest thing for someone like him is

0:24:11.200,0:24:16.340
to take it from someone they put in jail.[br]Because you could at least lose access

0:24:16.339,0:24:23.889
to university for wearing one of these[br]stickers, or serve some time in jail.

0:24:23.889,0:24:29.519
You could lose access to good housing and[br]everything. Why is he able to mock it?

0:24:29.519,0:24:35.480
Because he's the one who would decide[br]whether or not you lose access and this

0:24:35.480,0:24:38.569
is the a terrible thing [br]about these images.

0:24:38.569,0:24:41.390
They're very revealing.

0:24:48.860,0:24:56.100
These images are now 25/30 years[br]old. Why do I think these images are

0:24:56.099,0:25:01.968
still relevant today? It's [br]because of something like this.

0:25:01.968,0:25:09.460
There was a short period after the fall of [br]the Berlin Wall. It fell in November 9th

0:25:09.460,0:25:14.140
and the Stasi wasn't [br]dissolved until early January.

0:25:14.140,0:25:19.400
So there was a very short period of time [br]were the Stasi could try to destroy material.

0:25:19.400,0:25:23.860
They managed to destroy [br]a huge bunch of material. [br]

0:25:23.860,0:25:30.200
Not a very important set [br]except foreign espionage.

0:25:30.200,0:25:36.929
That's almost gone but if it would have[br]been up to them that would have been the

0:25:36.929,0:25:43.860
fate of all these images. Destruction. We[br]would have never been able to look at

0:25:43.859,0:25:50.149
these images. Even though we don't[br]know what these images stand for.

0:25:50.150,0:25:55.409
Maybe that's that's a group of gay men and they[br]infiltrated it and it was compromising

0:25:55.409,0:26:00.910
to one of their colleagues that they had[br]infiltrated it. They did things like that.

0:26:00.910,0:26:07.640
But they tried to destroyed it. Twenty-five[br]years after the fall of the Berlin Wall

0:26:07.640,0:26:12.900
why do you still think this material is[br]very relevant. I'm going to show you something

0:26:12.900,0:26:20.059
even more special and more rare [br]than the materials I showed you just now.

0:26:20.059,0:26:26.350
It's this. Over a course of [br]year I tried to convince

0:26:26.349,0:26:32.019
BND to grant me access to their[br]material which would be amazing because

0:26:32.019,0:26:38.240
in Germany we have these one society[br]with the two opposing systems so the

0:26:38.240,0:26:44.169
view on the cold war would be [br]absolutely astonishing if you would be

0:26:44.169,0:26:50.970
able to look at all the material. [br]After a year they got a call and told me

0:26:50.970,0:26:54.879
that we've got something [br]for you, come over.

0:26:54.879,0:26:59.919
They have a small section in Berlin [br]so I went there will my scanner and

0:26:59.919,0:27:08.530
they gave me that I would call them 14 [br]most boring pictures of the BND history.

0:27:09.520,0:27:12.280
It's a matchbox.

0:27:16.640,0:27:22.719
I looked at these images and I was like what [br]do they show and this guy was very serious

0:27:22.719,0:27:27.250
and told me 'Unfortunately I can't tell you [br]because the information is still classified'.

0:27:27.250,0:27:34.320
[Audience laughter]

0:27:34.320,0:27:42.829
Back then he told me as far as he knows[br]these are the only images they ever released.

0:27:44.779,0:27:51.979
So there's a huge problem I[br]have with this of course.

0:27:55.709,0:28:00.709
They can decide which images to show.

0:28:00.709,0:28:04.798
One of the guys I was in contact[br]with there told me of course we have

0:28:04.798,0:28:10.839
these disguise pictures and dress up and[br]things like that but keep in mind

0:28:10.839,0:28:16.079
back then he might have been the lowest in[br]the hierarchy and now he might be

0:28:16.079,0:28:20.819
head of the department or the one who[br]brought in the guy who is now the head

0:28:20.819,0:28:25.189
of the department. Of course [br]not in their interest for

0:28:25.190,0:28:27.860
these images to be released.

0:28:30.760,0:28:33.150
Yeah, but its in my interest

0:28:33.150,0:28:37.240
and our interest as to decide which [br]images are worth looking at or not.

0:28:37.240,0:28:42.609
There's another problem [br]with images like this.

0:28:42.609,0:28:47.740
We have almost nothing that is [br]accessible from the Western archives.

0:28:47.740,0:28:55.419
This is rare, this is special. It looks [br]like shit but it's very special.

0:28:55.419,0:29:02.180
But we have a trove from the Eastern [br]archive and that's always like the miracle

0:29:02.180,0:29:06.799
and when one of the Eastern [br]former communist countries

0:29:06.799,0:29:14.540
decides whether we should limit access [br]to our former Stalinist archives we say 'No!

0:29:14.540,0:29:19.929
don't do that. we must be open' but what[br]happens when we have access to just one

0:29:19.929,0:29:26.340
side and see all the terrible things they [br]are doing and have no access to the other side?

0:29:26.339,0:29:30.779
I'm not saying that the BND did the same[br]terrible things the Stasi did but the

0:29:30.779,0:29:37.000
BND was certainly breaking our laws as[br]well. But it does look more innocent

0:29:37.000,0:29:40.779
because we only have access to[br]a very terrible looking archive

0:29:40.779,0:29:47.309
and if we look to the West Germany's[br]it's like nothing there, must be fine and

0:29:47.309,0:29:54.399
that's a terrible thing. [br]There's a lot wrong with that

0:29:54.399,0:30:00.130
So I'm almost at the end, [br]I was rushing through.

0:30:04.270,0:30:15.790
I can show you two videos from Czech [br]archive audio isn't important because I was too quick

0:30:18.369,0:30:21.690
Sorry maybe that [br]is not going to work.

0:30:21.690,0:30:29.690
It seems things escalated [br]much quicker in CSR.

0:30:36.790,0:30:42.399
Life in the CSR must have [br]been very dangerous.

0:30:45.129,0:30:50.299
He has weapons every where.

0:31:21.649,0:31:27.189
But the best thing comes now. [br][Audience laughs]

0:31:34.959,0:31:40.919
Who would carry something like that there.

0:31:40.919,0:31:49.609
[Audience applause]

0:31:52.309,0:31:56.659
That's a very long film [br]that's just a short part.

0:31:56.659,0:32:01.109
If you are ever attacked [br]by someone with a chair.

0:32:07.599,0:32:13.759
That's like the six or seventh time he [br]shows that. He shows it again and then

0:32:13.759,0:32:20.029
it's going to be used but look closely[br]how the technique they just learned is used.

0:32:20.029,0:32:26.100
Do this the next time you are [br]attacked by some one with a chair.

0:32:28.830,0:32:31.520
Now he's going to be attacked by a chair.

0:32:31.520,0:32:35.450
Watch carefully he implements [br]it quite properly.

0:32:39.910,0:32:45.660
Well he didn't really look. [br]It's a long film and things

0:32:45.660,0:32:49.369
always escalates very quickly.

0:32:52.899,0:32:57.529
Two very long shots and you [br]are supposed to spot them.

0:32:57.529,0:33:01.599
They are are unnecessarily long.

0:33:03.679,0:33:05.839
[Audience laughter]

0:33:10.259,0:33:14.032
Of course they find the black guy smuggling.

0:33:14.032,0:33:19.655
He explains in English 'Do you have more like that

0:33:19.655,0:33:21.658
and he says no no ,no no

0:33:21.659,0:33:26.590
and still the porn is still in the[br]shot. And then he tells him yes but it's

0:33:26.589,0:33:29.029
going to be very serious [br]if you don't confess now.

0:33:29.029,0:33:33.119
Black guy says no I don't [br]have anything to confess.

0:33:33.119,0:33:46.449
The guy on the left get suspicious. [br]He doesn't want to sign his confession.

0:33:54.250,0:34:01.450
He gets suspicious. Very, very suspicious

0:34:03.350,0:34:06.880
Fortunately the camera man made the move to the left or

0:34:06.880,0:34:11.579
not to zoom in on the penis. No no he[br]doesn't have anything but it turns out

0:34:11.579,0:34:19.260
it turns out he has something because[br]he's black and suspicious-looking.

0:34:21.940,0:34:26.059
Ah! He is moving his arm.

0:34:52.159,0:34:56.680
It turns out his arm is not broken.

0:34:56.680,0:35:01.710
Sorry that was somewhat long but [br]I rushed through everything else.

0:35:01.720,0:35:07.369
For some reason he hides [br]batteries in his cast.

0:35:07.379,0:35:15.779
[Audience laughs and applauds]

0:35:19.209,0:35:29.609
He could bring in the watches but you better[br]hide the batteries because wooo. Any questions?

0:35:31.189,0:35:45.399
[Applause]

0:35:45.429,0:35:50.738
Host: Thank you[br]Simon: I hope you got what you paid for.

0:35:50.738,0:35:57.168
Host: Maybe before we start questions and [br]answers everybody who wants to leave, leave now.

0:35:57.168,0:36:01.208
Host: We will take one [br]minute so you can leave

0:36:01.208,0:36:06.788
and all the others who want [br]to stay have it quiet for the Q&A.

0:36:29.739,0:36:34.589
Host: And remember [br]to use the rating system

0:36:34.590,0:36:47.690
Simon: I brought postcards because we [br]have to make fun of them as much as we can.

0:36:48.469,0:36:54.989
Simon: It's all the same motif [br]but take as many as you want.

0:37:10.860,0:37:20.249
Host: There are two microphones for[br]the questions and answers, no four if you need them.

0:37:20.249,0:37:28.889
Host: 1,2 and we have questions from the internet.

0:37:36.969,0:37:40.099
Host: OK we will start with you

0:37:40.099,0:37:43.099
Audience member: Just a [br]short question please.

0:37:43.099,0:37:49.339
First of all thanks for the wonderful[br]talk was very very interesting.

0:37:49.339,0:37:52.270
Can you give us the [br]title of your book please.

0:37:52.270,0:37:56.610
Simon: Oh yeah, Google my [br]name. It's available in your

0:37:56.610,0:38:05.879
local bookstore or if you want Amazon. It[br]still available but not many copies left.

0:38:06.919,0:38:13.789
It's just Top Secret and then Simon Menner. My family[br]doesn't write that many books.

0:38:16.239,0:38:21.280
Host: thank you.[br]Audience member: Would you be so kind to

0:38:21.280,0:38:24.280
show us back that photo with the Coyote

0:38:24.280,0:38:32.890
ugly and American flag because I thought[br]I saw Yugoslav air transport logo on the...

0:38:32.889,0:38:41.279
There you see it. He flew with, [br]now it's called Air Serbia.

0:38:41.279,0:38:51.000
Simon: Yeah that must have been the reason [br]Audience member: I just wanted to check that out thanks

0:38:51.000,0:38:54.110
Host: We have a question from the internet.

0:38:54.110,0:39:01.090
Internet host: Yes Frankie2 is asking how [br]does this compare to todays surveillance?

0:39:01.090,0:39:08.190
Simon: The problem is, in a way, that's a [br]treasure trove but it's a very weird one.

0:39:08.190,0:39:15.039
If I could freely choose what material[br]to look at I would definitely try

0:39:15.039,0:39:18.679
to look at the last two weeks of[br]NSA surveillance like we all would.

0:39:18.679,0:39:23.799
but unfortunately that is [br]as close as as we can get

0:39:23.800,0:39:29.910
to this kind of material. Keep in[br]mind, back in its day the Stasi was

0:39:29.909,0:39:34.389
at least as sophisticated[br]as the BND. In fact there were

0:39:34.389,0:39:40.909
more advanced in the technologies [br]they used. The Stasi would definitely use

0:39:40.909,0:39:45.299
the same techniques BND and CIA

0:39:45.300,0:39:51.430
and everyone else uses today. They would[br]try to listen in on our phone conversations.

0:39:51.430,0:39:57.610
That might not be the right material to look at[br]it from a technological point of view

0:39:57.610,0:40:02.870
but I think this material is very interesting and[br]important if you want to find something

0:40:02.869,0:40:09.819
out about their state of mind. Which[br]is absurd but keep in mind the excuse

0:40:09.820,0:40:15.019
you hear from the NSA. They just want to[br]protect the law and that's why they are

0:40:15.019,0:40:19.839
breaking the law. That's an excuse you[br]regularly find with the Stasi as well.

0:40:19.839,0:40:24.590
You find parallels and that's why[br]it's important to look at this material

0:40:24.590,0:40:31.220
even though it's very old. The whole [br]archive consists somewhere

0:40:31.219,0:40:37.020
between one and two million [br]photographs which absurdly little

0:40:37.020,0:40:40.810
if you think that the system was in [br]operation for almost 40 years.

0:40:40.810,0:40:43.790
That's fifty thousand [br]pictures a year and they had

0:40:43.790,0:40:49.829
85,000 agents. From todays standards[br]that's nothing but today they would be

0:40:49.829,0:40:53.519
far more sophisticated I guess.

0:40:53.519,0:40:56.769
Host: We have a question over there

0:40:56.769,0:41:00.489
Audience member: Firstly, thank you for your talk.

0:41:00.489,0:41:06.050
You showed that some of this information had[br]been destroyed or at least attempts were

0:41:06.050,0:41:11.990
made to destroy and much of it was but[br]there's a still a lot left to look through.

0:41:11.990,0:41:17.780
What happens in future generations when, [br]given that now surveillance is done all

0:41:17.780,0:41:25.220
digitally, the Stasi had some number of weeks[br]from when the wall fell to when they had actually

0:41:25.219,0:41:30.299
disband and they had time to to to destroy[br]things. Given how quickly and easy

0:41:30.300,0:41:35.430
it is to erase digital information [br]what would you say to the people

0:41:35.429,0:41:36.489
coming after you,

0:41:36.489,0:41:40.529
future generations who might want to try[br]and find similar things in dissolved

0:41:40.530,0:41:43.499
surveillance organizations. [br]Are they completely stuffed?

0:41:43.499,0:41:45.119
Simon: Unless there is going to be a

0:41:45.119,0:41:49.700
revolution they are not going to be able to[br]look at anything that would be my guess.

0:41:49.700,0:41:53.590
You need this abrupt [br]shift in the whole system

0:41:53.590,0:42:02.010
that decapitates this operation and so they [br]lost everything and now it's frozen in time.

0:42:02.010,0:42:06.730
The guy at the BND told me it's [br]up to us to decide what we reveal and

0:42:06.730,0:42:12.739
what not because we have a veto. [br]Of course nothing is then revealed, ever.

0:42:12.739,0:42:18.139
As long as this stays the policy [br]and it is the policy currently

0:42:18.139,0:42:21.639
everywhere from what I understand you're

0:42:21.639,0:42:30.200
not going to be able to look at anything.[br]I'm not very optimistic in that respect.

0:42:31.190,0:42:34.190
Audience member: Hello, thanks for your talk.

0:42:34.190,0:42:39.730
How did you decide what faces [br]to anonymise and which not to?

0:42:39.730,0:42:48.110
Simon: With the Czech Republic archive images [br]I did it and that's weird you can do

0:42:48.110,0:42:52.069
whatever you want [br]which is terrible in a way.

0:42:52.069,0:42:56.219
The Stasi images, the archive [br]had to decide and it decided

0:42:56.219,0:43:02.199
on the basis when you work in[br]an official position, in the German law

0:43:02.199,0:43:07.789
when you work in an official position in[br]times of historical importance

0:43:07.789,0:43:10.359
like that you lose your privacy rights.

0:43:10.360,0:43:15.210
You don't share the same privacy rights.[br]So once we could find written evidence

0:43:15.210,0:43:25.639
that the person shown in the image was[br]working for the Stasi they lost the

0:43:25.639,0:43:31.259
right to privacy. If the slightest doubt[br]remained it had to be pixeled so it wasn't

0:43:31.260,0:43:36.939
done by me. The German privacy [br]rights are very strict.

0:43:38.039,0:43:42.179
Audience member: You said when you talked

0:43:42.179,0:43:46.369
about surveillance watching each other[br]and surveilling each other that this

0:43:46.369,0:43:51.679
would be something like the highest state[br]of surveillance but in a sense don't you

0:43:51.679,0:43:54.969
think there's now a much higher state and[br]also that before things were much more

0:43:54.969,0:43:58.799
clear. Everybody knew that there was a[br]regime trying to stay in power and tried to

0:43:58.800,0:44:04.359
put down everybody. Now[br]wouldn't it be a situation where they don't

0:44:04.358,0:44:07.869
even have to break the law, they just[br]make it legal to surveil. We can see in

0:44:07.869,0:44:12.739
France now with the law on[br]intelligence that passed just after the Charlie

0:44:12.739,0:44:18.138
murders and now we've got the murders[br]again and you've got people that have to

0:44:18.138,0:44:21.558
stay in their homes because the[br]intelligence has said that they might

0:44:21.559,0:44:24.380
protest and they don't have to go[br]through a Judge. They're actually

0:44:24.380,0:44:29.849
making it legal and not even have to[br]break the law and also where people

0:44:29.849,0:44:32.630
actually surveil each other.

0:44:32.630,0:44:42.298
Simon: That's Facebook today. [br]The general problem with

0:44:42.298,0:44:47.809
surveillance operations I would argue and [br]hope someone from the BND is here

0:44:47.809,0:44:54.568
to come forward and talk to them because [br]it would really like to find out.

0:44:57.078,0:45:02.909
I would argue that this type of surveillance[br]cannot work. What you're trying to find

0:45:02.909,0:45:10.018
proof for is a state of mind, his thoughts.[br]It's not something you did but some things

0:45:10.018,0:45:15.170
you think about or you [br]think you might want to do.

0:45:15.170,0:45:18.170
I'm a photographer and I know [br]how bad photography is.

0:45:18.170,0:45:24.979
You were looking at images of landscape where no[br]sniper was visible and each one of you saw it.

0:45:24.979,0:45:31.339
That's how bad photography is as an[br]evidence and this can be proved for

0:45:31.338,0:45:37.699
everything and nothing. Could be proof.

0:45:37.699,0:45:40.969
Audience member: They just write a paper [br]to the police and he just says okay they're[br]

0:45:40.969,0:45:43.489
dangerous and they have to stay at home.

0:45:43.489,0:45:54.068
Simon: Yes but they need proof or evidence [br]for now. You leave behind such a trail of

0:45:54.068,0:45:58.349
evidence yourself that could be [br]read somewhere in the future.

0:45:58.349,0:46:03.950
What happens in 10 years [br]when the US like smoking and

0:46:03.949,0:46:08.449
drinking isn't socially acceptable anymore. [br]What happens to you then with

0:46:08.449,0:46:17.660
your Facebook entry that's twenty [br]years old then, it's a weird system.

0:46:17.660,0:46:20.349
Host: We have another [br]question from the internet

0:46:20.349,0:46:23.130
Internet host: Yes somebody from from IRC[br]

0:46:23.130,0:46:27.210
is asking if you have tried [br]to contact other agencies.

0:46:27.210,0:46:35.210
Simon: Yes, like the BND which was not [br]very successful. With these spies taking pictures of

0:46:35.210,0:46:39.599
spies I tried with the British. I know[br]these pictures still exists. I know where

0:46:39.599,0:46:49.299
they exist but, sorry. Czech Republic I[br]was asked by the Institute to

0:46:49.300,0:46:54.049
approach them but it was very difficult[br]that's too lengthy to explain now.

0:46:54.049,0:46:56.560
It was very difficult working with them

0:46:56.559,0:47:02.700
language wise and because of the[br]structure of the archive itself.

0:47:02.700,0:47:07.859
They were very open and so if you want to do[br]more research on something like that

0:47:07.858,0:47:13.598
go to the Czech Republic's first because[br]it's much easier to work with them on

0:47:13.599,0:47:20.760
the bureaucratic level than with the Germans[br]but the Germans in a way are more organized.

0:47:22.190,0:47:26.189
That's the Germans!

0:47:29.999,0:47:34.519
Audience member: How hard was it to get the [br]material although it is not classified any more

0:47:34.519,0:47:37.519
how much time did you invest?

0:47:37.519,0:47:40.869
Simon: The hardest time was [br]waiting periods in between

0:47:40.869,0:47:45.700
requests because German [br]bureaucracy takes forever.

0:47:45.699,0:47:52.669
I'm from West Germany but now I have a huge [br]file in this archive because they compile everything so

0:47:52.670,0:47:57.700
they keep track of every picture you[br]looking at. The funny thing is

0:47:57.699,0:48:02.808
it's not hard. You can do it as well.[br]You don't have to be a researcher and

0:48:02.809,0:48:08.140
the archive considers research a basic[br]human right which I learned then and it's

0:48:08.139,0:48:15.558
a very convenient thing. There are some elderly[br]former Stasi agents who spend their retirement researching.

0:48:15.559,0:48:22.730
something, they can do it. The weird[br]thing was that most of the pictures

0:48:22.730,0:48:26.159
no one's looked at before. That could be[br]proven because they keep track of

0:48:26.159,0:48:34.439
everything. It's very easy, very[br]lengthy process but very easy.

0:48:34.439,0:48:37.680
Audience member: When you decided [br]to visit the archives did you

0:48:37.680,0:48:42.030
have to apply for a certain [br]corner in the archive

0:48:42.030,0:48:45.219
or could you just walk in and [br]say show me all your pictures?

0:48:45.219,0:48:48.909
Simon: No, it was very [br]open they might have

0:48:48.909,0:48:55.739
closed off behind me somewhat because[br]for them it was strangely overwhelming the

0:48:55.739,0:49:01.519
amount of feedback they got after my book[br]came out and they want to be left alone I think.

0:49:01.518,0:49:16.578
You have to formulate a theme quite [br]clearly for me but since this was new

0:49:16.579,0:49:24.098
back then, for them as well, it was surveillance [br]and photography which is a very broad topic.

0:49:24.098,0:49:31.380
Now they received quite a few requests like [br]we want to see what Simon Menners saw

0:49:31.380,0:49:35.550
and they don't accept something like this. So[br]you have to come up with something more clever.

0:49:35.559,0:49:38.559
Audience member: How much time [br]did you spend in their dungeons?

0:49:38.559,0:49:48.070
Simon: Three years on and off but it's [br]mostly waiting in between so be patient.

0:49:49.559,0:49:55.980
Audience member: Modern state agencies [br]including NSA and BND have this mentality of

0:49:55.980,0:50:01.329
collect all passive intelligence and[br]has this ability to minimize the impact

0:50:01.329,0:50:05.449
of the damage that there's no human eyes[br]looking at specific piece of surveillance.

0:50:05.449,0:50:10.699
Of course we know this is not true[br]and they can zero in when they want to.

0:50:10.699,0:50:15.730
As an archivist how do you [br]try to understand the

0:50:15.730,0:50:20.619
state of mind when you have so much data,[br]possibly unprocessed data, and how do you

0:50:20.619,0:50:25.089
get into the mind of filtering through[br]this bureaucratic censorship of not just

0:50:25.090,0:50:28.349
no documents but a [br]hundred million documents.

0:50:28.349,0:50:30.659
Simon: One has to be

0:50:30.659,0:50:35.699
very careful with such material because[br]you look through their eyes and that's

0:50:35.699,0:50:42.589
dangerous and that's why I try not to[br]provide that much "background

0:50:42.590,0:50:46.809
information" because the "background[br]information" and most of the images has

0:50:46.809,0:50:55.160
text complied by Stasi agents so theres [br]already guilty or not guilty written in the text.

0:50:55.160,0:50:59.769
I don't want to look at these pictures [br]through their eyes but still I find it very

0:50:59.769,0:51:04.550
revealing to look at the raw [br]material and the Stasi would have

0:51:04.550,0:51:11.220
collected everything in bulk if they would have been[br]able. They opened every parcel to East

0:51:11.219,0:51:20.489
Germany, every letter. Paranoia wise they [br]were several steps ahead of the NSA.

0:51:20.489,0:51:26.390
They had a university and when studying [br]there you could do your PhD but you

0:51:26.390,0:51:28.630
were not allowed to keep your notes

0:51:28.630,0:51:35.700
you took during the day. They had to be[br]locked into lockers that had doors on two sides.

0:51:35.700,0:51:39.140
You lock them in and they will copy[br]that night and you were not allowed to

0:51:39.139,0:51:44.099
keep your PhD thesis because the moment[br]you wrote it was classified top secret

0:51:44.099,0:51:49.440
and that's paranoia. It really is paranoia.

0:51:49.440,0:51:54.079
I cannot prove it and that's[br]the problem with the whole thing,

0:51:54.079,0:51:56.019
one side remains closed.

0:51:56.019,0:52:01.949
You cannot prove otherwise. [br]My guess would be they're quite

0:52:01.949,0:52:04.720
happy with the situation, that [br]you cannot prove otherwise.

0:52:04.720,0:52:08.690
Because they can always [br]say we did something else.

0:52:08.690,0:52:18.709
Well we can't tell you but not like this. It's always [br]very weak but from the state of mind insane.

0:52:20.479,0:52:23.030
Audience member: What is the [br]copyright of these pictures?

0:52:23.030,0:52:27.279
Are they public domain, can I [br]use them for internet memes?

0:52:27.279,0:52:33.349
Simon: Well no. Unfortunately most of [br]the pictures on my website are low resolution

0:52:33.349,0:52:37.969
which the archive doesn't like but it's there.

0:52:37.969,0:52:42.389
The problem is there's a law that covers[br]this archive. It's not part of the

0:52:42.389,0:52:47.848
archive sphere in Germany, it has its own[br]law and the law was written early

0:52:47.849,0:52:54.440
90's by lawmakers. We all know them[br]and love them. They never thought about

0:52:54.440,0:53:02.379
the fact that an artist might come along[br]and show them. So the law covers publication.

0:53:02.379,0:53:10.810
Once you have access to the archive [br]you are allowed to publicize it.

0:53:10.810,0:53:15.300
Nothing else is stated. But[br]you're not allowed to hand over the

0:53:15.300,0:53:22.920
files and I had lengthy debates with the[br]archive what that could mean because it

0:53:22.920,0:53:30.690
when you have it on their website you hand [br]out the files - it;s publicizing it. No no no no.

0:53:30.690,0:53:39.619
I said what's the difference? We don't [br]really know but.... Tricky.

0:53:39.619,0:53:46.060
And so many people copied it from my[br]website which I think is good.

0:53:46.060,0:53:51.620
Host: Having a look at my watch I think we have one[br]more question here two here.

0:53:51.620,0:53:56.308
Simon: I'm here the next three days look at me I[br]might not remember your face but you

0:53:56.308,0:54:01.528
might remember my bald head so talk to me

0:54:01.528,0:54:05.278
Audience member: Were you able to [br]access files other than images?

0:54:05.278,0:54:07.608
Audio recordings of this phone [br]surveillance for example?

0:54:07.608,0:54:10.449
Simon: That's a very tricky thing. [br]You could listen to those

0:54:10.449,0:54:17.050
but getting them is almost impossible [br]because German privacy laws again.

0:54:17.050,0:54:24.278
Their argument is whenever you speak you

0:54:24.278,0:54:30.440
could reveal something private and that's [br]their argument even though you might be

0:54:30.440,0:54:36.068
Erich Honecker or Helmut Kohl [br]but still it could be private

0:54:36.068,0:54:41.849
what you're saying. That's why they[br]could never release something, you would

0:54:41.849,0:54:47.480
never be allowed to release its stating[br]thats Erich Honecker because it could be private.

0:54:47.480,0:54:58.070
So it's a strange law but no one's[br]going to change it any more.

0:54:58.090,0:55:01.130
Host: And the last question over here

0:55:01.130,0:55:06.680
Audience member: I'm interested how you [br]always know what shown by the photographs?

0:55:06.679,0:55:13.929
Were there captions like spy spying on spy or[br]brought about by an explanation by yourself?

0:55:13.929,0:55:21.828
Simon: It's gazillions of kilometres of[br]files and just a very few photographs so

0:55:21.829,0:55:25.990
there's always a huge amount of[br]background information. The greatest

0:55:25.989,0:55:34.919
thing and I am absolutely thankful[br]towards, it was only ladies working at the

0:55:34.920,0:55:40.510
archive, really at the archive handing[br]me the files and giving me the copies because

0:55:40.510,0:55:45.609
the most important thing and whenever [br]you want to work with an

0:55:45.608,0:55:49.679
archive the trickiest part is how do[br]you find something you don't know exists.

0:55:49.679,0:55:54.379
Because you can't ask for it. I'm really[br]looking for...

0:55:54.380,0:56:00.510
is there a birthday party? You will never[br]ask for something like this but once

0:56:00.510,0:56:06.000
you've earned the trust of the people working at[br]the archive they provide you and provided

0:56:06.000,0:56:13.050
me with these images because they knew in[br]which direction I was looking for material.

0:56:13.050,0:56:19.539
There was always in most cases [br]there was background information.

0:56:19.539,0:56:26.929
There's a weird set of a dead swan[br]which I didn't include in the talk.

0:56:26.929,0:56:32.210
It's a set of 4 images of a dead[br]swan. It was only known that it was found

0:56:32.210,0:56:37.920
in the vault that was owned by Erich [br]Mielke the head of Stasi personally.

0:56:37.920,0:56:40.920
It's four images of a [br]grave of a dead swan with

0:56:40.920,0:56:46.769
GDR flags around it. That's very[br]famous for being the biggest mystery in

0:56:46.769,0:56:51.960
the Stasi files because nothing can [br]be found about these images.

0:56:51.960,0:56:55.539
I didn't include them in the talk but [br]it's a dead swan, very mysterious.

0:56:55.539,0:56:58.539
Must have been important!

0:56:59.439,0:57:02.800
Host: So thank you Simon very, very much.

0:57:02.800,0:57:08.264
[Audience applause]