108: Developing Meaningful Game Development Levels with Lorien Gugich

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welcome to the gamedev.tv

community podcast i'm your host kb and i

would like to introduce you

to industry professionals and people who

successfully made their path

to the video game industry i hope that

you will enjoy the podcast and get

useful tips that'll bring you closer to

achieving your dreams

now let's get right into the podcast

lauren googie welcome to the gamedev.tv

podcast

thank you if you are a ceo of the

cinematic pie

correct chromatic pie or magpie my bad

i knew it i was like i looked it up

early and i was like i don't think

that's right

we had a chromatic pie so explain a

little bit what that that is and a

little bit about who you are and then

we'll go from there

well uh my name is lauren and i'm born

and raised in new zealand

down under under and um i

just have a passion for video games as a

lot of us do it's very deep seated for

me from

childhood um and i just

i just found my home really i found i'm

so lucky that i've found

a place where i can grow a career and

really expand into all sorts of

different

corners of it which is what i'm doing

with chromatic pie

that's awesome yes i saw the little bit

about it

you're basically trying to represent all

communities

in one basically right yeah so that's

that's really good nowadays because it's

like we need more of that so people can

feel like representative and just

connected and all that stuff but i want

to get

to how you got started follow this so

back when you were younger did you

play a lot of games were you into game

design or you were just doing your thing

like

what's your story my story so when i was

younger um

my my dad was a gamer since before i was

born

so i would watch him play quake doom and

half-life

probably a bit too young to watch but

like i just loved it you know i

he'd play it and i was so enthralled by

what was going on on this computer

screen and it was like a whole

new experience whole new world for me so

i grew up

with that and so we had the sega master

system too which i

still have it's uh on one of my shelves

in the lounge with all the games

um i have chuck rock and

i've got asterisks and a balux

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um so we had that one and then of course

we went up to the playstation one

my dad also had a a game boy um and a

few of the types of those

um but that was like his one he didn't

let us play on it too much because it

was

it was his thing yeah you want to mess

up the save data

yeah um and then yeah

just their ps2 uh xbox you know it just

sort of it just evolved over time and

when i was at school i would quite often

just come home and uh

you know drop my bag down and just play

video games

um until you know homework or dinner

time so

for me video games has always been a

part of my life um

for me i i started in the entertainment

aspect of things

i was going through quite a hard time in

my life in my early 20s and i found this

youtuber

called the red bread and so i started

watching his

let's plays and you know he helped me

through my situation

and you know we all go through things

but i found that

people playing video games for others

was just this amazing medium and i

really wanted to tap into that myself

and so

that's really where my uh streaming

career began

and i this is a lengthy story

no worries yeah it's all good we all

want to hear it

yeah yeah so i guess from you know

streaming on twitch it just sort of took

off

and uh i just i just loved interacting

with people

in real time and i earned enough money

where i could fly to america for my very

first time

and attend the the first twitchcon uh

and

i kept returning to go to other gaming

conventions

and so i just loved networking loved

meeting the community and just loved

what i did

um but i found through playing my video

games on the hardest difficulty

which is something not everyone does but

i i love a challenge i found from that

that i became more interested in game

design and um

you know the mechanics of of combat and

boss fights and

i just really wanted to learn more and

so i

i put out on twitter one day you know

i'm looking for a

a community management position because

i knew community management quite well

um from this the twitch side of things

so i got a job as a community manager at

a studio um

here in wellington where i currently am

and then they offered me to be a

producer because they saw some

potential in me so i took that role uh

and then of course covered hit oh no

yeah and

you know the layoffs and all that sort

of jazz so i found myself in a position

where i was like you know what

i love video games i see uh

sort of gaps within the industry for

inclusion diversity

and accessibility and i really want to

use my leverage from all the the work

i've done over the years

um you know all the social media

presence that i've built up

and really just build something

meaningful and that's going to help you

know propel

the industry in new zealand but also

globally

you know we need to see more inclusive

and accessibility

in games i agree that's beautiful story

thanks now i want to get into the whole

you playing games on the hard difficulty

is that something you just want to

challenge yourself like what is the

thought process because i'm gonna say

i'm on the same thing but i do it

because like

go big and go home gotta prove myself

that i'm really good stuff

that's it you know i i started doing it

because i just wanted

like something else you know something

more interesting

um and you know it you i'd start a game

and this is on twitch and it's in front

of people so it's not like i'm just

doing it at home by myself which is

way better yeah right you know you're

not as vulnerable

yeah yeah yeah exactly watch me die like

all these times and people would like

come and go like ah she's not really

good but then

you know a few hours into every game i

overcome that learning curve and then i

end up just propelling to the finish

and for me that feeling is just i love

that feeling you know that i've

i've stuck it in and i've learned the

mechanics and i can really knuckle down

and just like get through the game

and i just love that sense of um

accomplishment and

uh the people that watch me they also

they're like wow

you know you actually did the thing

you're really good [ __ ]

no but seriously it's it's weird because

like you when you

start to play in hard difficulties and

you get better and better and better you

really become good at the game like i

played god of war and got a war mode and

you really can't get hit

oh my gosh then you get to a point

you're doing all the cool stuff you're

like you can't touch me you can't get me

i've learned the tricks i've learned

this stuff i know when you're gonna hit

me it's

it's incredible and and it's it's cool

because you go into this like flow state

where you you just won't give up until

you get there which i think can

translate into like game design game

programming like

you get to a point where you're like

you're going to fail but like well in

the game i failed but i kept failing

failing and eventually i made it so

maybe the same thing can happen here i

don't know if you have the same type of

like perspective when you play these

hard

games but yeah definitely there was a

pattern god of war

earlier in the game on god of war mode

that i was playing in

it was just you had the x but you had

all those uh i can't remember

their names but they were like frozen

and if you hit them they came to life

um and it was really hard to avoid you

know you're in this confined

area and um that part i

i was stuck there so many times and died

so many times but

after then it really set me up for like

the rest of the game and then

whenever those enemies came along i was

like you guys are nothing

did you beat the game like the whole

game i did yep

i couldn't balder at the end i tried so

many times i got to like the last part

of his health and i just i was like i'm

done

i've spent i think i spent like a whole

day actually like 24 hours on it and i

was like all right

it's it's time it's time to cut it yeah

yeah sometimes you have to sit back and

be like

i'll come back to this i got close

enough because i watched a little bit

afterwards i was like oh no i'm at the

end of the game i pretty much beat it

so but the hardest part too and i don't

think you didn't easy

is when you got them low enough health

they would like

re-heal and then have a second bar

health so i remember i was watching my

friend playing like damn i was like bro

this is too easy

i'm just like slashes and i'm like you

have to go gotta warm up makes you

better

it makes you stronger so yeah no it's

that

yeah i remember being on top of the the

mountains

when you get the achievement after

walking through this this cave scene

and um the music plays and it's just

this like

oh i did it that's such a good game i

can't wait for the next one

now when you were doing your producer

jump how was what was that like how did

you

prepare for that and you evolved in that

role

wow yeah so being a producer for the

first time was uh

quite it was quite something you know

when when i was a part of um the studios

called a44 games um they didn't really

have a

producer structure at the time

so we had um two other producers at the

time another junior another mid-level

producer

um so we didn't really have a program to

really

nestle into but then we got a senior

producer in

from the united states and she was just

incredible she came in february last

year

and of course i think i left in

june i believe so i was only there with

her for a short amount of time but

gosh she had like 30 years experience

and i really just got to go under her

wing

and learn you know how successful you

know how she's made herself successful

and helped other companies

and so i really took a lot from that you

know i'm someone that

absorbs a lot uh probably more than i

lead on to

as well um and i really just take it all

in take it on board

i was the producer for um

coding first and then i jumped over to

design

so i was looking after systems narrative

you know all the different facets of

design

so during that as well i got to

understand you know

how the different departments

communicate with each other um

got to understand you know what the

different departments actually

do what it's about how it all comes to

life

and i just yeah i just gained such a

passion for it and was like you know

what i know enough to start an indie

game company

you know i don't want to start this big

triple a like you know but i can start

indian like and go from there so

yeah i loved being a producer it was

great wow

okay and so did you go to school for any

game

design game development or this was just

from twitch and then eventually evolving

towards being a producer and then

or how did that yeah yeah i think yeah

um it was lucky you know i wanted

a i wanted a career uh some more

financial stability in my life um

you know that twitch couldn't really

give me so i thought you know community

management would be

the gig and um that felt like a natural

step to do that but when they offered me

a job as a producer

you know it sort of opened doors for me

and i

i did see myself wanting to be a

creative director one day while i was at

the studio

you know like leveling up to that level

over over a certain amount of years

um but no you know i asked other

creative directors within the studio i

was like you know would you recommend

going to school

for something like this and they're like

no you can learn it all in house

and a lot of teams are like that you

know they will um

help support you to to get to the the

status that you want to get to

over time um but you know if you want to

go to

a game design school and whatnot those

are definitely

helpful but if you're already in the

industry and you've worked at a game

studio

and you feel like you have enough

experience to start something

um you know there's really nothing

holding you back and um

yeah i would just say just go for it

like i have i have a bit of courage

though

it does take courage but uh yeah yeah i

was gonna ask

dude were you nervous not well let's not

talk about the suit yet but were you

nervous when they were like

you want to be a producer and then yeah

because you know experience before so

you were like i have community

management experience but not producers

how did you feel about that were you

like

let's just bring it on or was your

mindset yeah um

for yes i was i was you know i've got a

really optimistic attitude

and uh you know i just feel like you

know anything i could put my mind to

i can i can do it and if if it doesn't

turn out it doesn't turn out you know

what have you got to lose so

i really just gave it my all um and

really tried to learn

in my own way in my own time about how

everything works and

i got to know the people at the studio

as well you know not just

from a level of you know telling them

when their

tasks were due or milestones and whatnot

but actually you know getting to know

them as people

and um how these different individuals

work together but so differently

you know and so i that's what i really

loved about being a producer was that

the communication aspect and that like

the human level of like i don't i'm not

just going to be this person that tells

you

what to do where to go but actually like

you know get amongst it

okay wow that's crazy that's

it's just it's insane because i've known

a lot of people even myself where it's

just like

i don't know if i feel ready for that

even though i've done a lot of different

things

i've never done it so you feel kind of

nervous you get that pushback but it's

like you got to try it

to learn what it's like and infinitely

yeah

so going to the twitch how did you get

that started you just started

streaming started playing games and

showing the world with like how did you

get how did you get popular

all right so uh i started streaming in

january 2015

so i've actually been doing it for six

years now

and we'll probably keep doing it till

i'm elderly i suppose

why not kind of weird yeah i mean

at that stage i guess it'll be like

normal we'll be like the first ones to

be like elderly

gaming personalities or whatever but

that's really funny that'd be

interesting you'd be in all ground would

be like hey

you guys ready to play some whatever

yeah like your followers have

followed you through since you know your

conception you're all

old you know i wonder

oh my goodness so for me you know i

started with destiny

and you know disney came out september

2014 so it was kind of new

um especially on twitch and i just grew

a community there

and uh i don't know i guess at the time

there wasn't many new zealand streamers

as well so i had the advantage of

an interesting accent um of course um

i was a female which we don't have like

a leg up but

um it does it can help you know on a

platform that's majority of male viewers

you know

so you know from all these different

angles you know i was just getting a lot

of followers a lot of viewers

and i really built up a really special

community

and so from then i just decided you know

what you know i was getting about a

thousand viewers it was actually going

really successful

but then i wanted to to go to variety it

was just i couldn't play

this one game like day in day out day in

day out anymore

even if it meant money you know i that's

just me i i

have to be authentic uh to my core when

i can

and so when i did that you know um my

viewership went down but then it

gradually built back up and then my

community was just

this more like well-rounded community of

uh different

interests but they could all come

together to watch me play whatever game

that i wanted

and uh in new zealand you know being in

a small country

and at the time one of the very few

twitch streamers that was

at that level of success i got media

attention um

you know i was on a lot of articles i

was on some news channels

um and it was just it was just really

great that helped really elevate me and

the

um american saturated market

and uh yeah no it's just i'm so thrilled

that i've had such a successful twitch

career

and um but you know now i really just

want to

uh do that as a as a hobby and not rely

on it for money and

just get started with my gaming studio

that makes sense

now when you got media attention on the

news how did that feel like you were

like i'm famous now yeah

yeah it was uh it was crazy uh

it's kind of you know my first sort of

media attention was in the local

newspaper

my dad actually uh he yeah

he wrote it it was called the hawke's

bay today

and they he wrote in and then they

contacted me and did a piece on me

and you know from there then other wider

news outlets in the country were like

hey like we want to do a piece on this

girl and so that's sort of how it like

dominoed into

into what it uh became for me and uh

yeah now i i know a lot of journalists

you know

it's just yeah it's it's crazy to think

about

that's insane just just by playing games

you can become like this big

thing because five not even like i don't

know 23.

like seven years ago eight years ago i

was like there's no way people would be

paid to play games i just watched them

on youtube for fun but now it's like

literally there's community streamers

and all this

twitch community out here just people

just sharing their experience just

sharing games because not everybody can

play games

they don't have the money to buy it or

some people just want to watch people

play it's more comforting or the

streamer themselves

helps them get through tough times like

happened to you and actually if i would

like to get into at least how you

how your mindset was during that hard

times and how you got through it

right wow so i guess those hard times

like thinking back on it was very minor

i've been in some

uh worse times

since then but you know from each

bedtime i've been through you know video

games has always been there for me but

i've always been there for myself as

well

and through each time you sort of learn

about you know

how how best to get through it the next

time

uh in case you know something happens to

you

and um i guess that's yeah that's really

video games is just like on the side of

that

um really but you know for example

um the biggest one in the last few years

was um

i got married to another twitch streamer

in america

and we have a child together and so i

moved my life over there with a newborn

baby

and it didn't work out unfortunately so

i had to move all the way back to new

zealand

uh from from america that's tough i was

yeah an eight month old uh and then

and then we've been separated for almost

three years now so it's it's not too

recent but

that was really hard for me to go

through as a solo parent

and um you know at the time i was just a

twitch streamer um

grieving didn't really know what to do

and then i

you know really just catapult myself

into game development

and three years on i'm here with my own

indie studio and i'm just like i'm just

so proud of myself

thank you yeah it's not easy doing what

you did but

you he did it and that's all that

matters

yeah i also want to hear a story about

your name the the twitch

name you made it's laurie yeah how did

that

hello so my first name's lorien

and my family name is

lollipop lolly lol pup like there's

different variations of it so i thought

you know how can i combine lollipop

and my name so i came up with lorry pop

or lori pops i guess yeah oh i love it

now for anybody who wanted to do like

twitch streaming

like whether it's for just games or even

game development what

advice would you give them um

i would say that twitch streaming is

actually a great segue to break into the

game development industry uh it really

is you know i don't think i could have

got to where i am without all the

networking and all the contacts and all

the the friends that i've made in the

industry you know

including video game studios and playing

video games uh for them and

and whatnot so it really is a great

segue but to get into twitch i would say

um just you know be yourself or offer

the most unique

aspect of yourself um or if you're

someone that likes to put on a persona

that's fine but like really stick to

that

and be consistent in the video game that

you play i would say start off with one

so your community has one core interest

to

to come together and bond over and then

from there if you want to do variety

then

slowly branch out into variety also you

know networking i will say that again

networking is

so important and it is so valuable

especially if it's genuine networking

not just you know

trying to trying to get a leg up in the

business you know making continuing

um but those are probably the core core

aspects

um of how i would say breaking into

twitch

um game development wise you know

there's a lot of community

and manager positions available in game

dev now and a lot of people

from the twitch scene are actually

stepping over into these roles

um so i would recommend that as well you

know just getting amongst that working

with these studios and

you know they most likely already know

who you are as well if you're a

successful streamer and so you've got

that sort of bonded respect there

already

um yeah i know it's um

my story is quite unique you know

there's not many twitch streamers that

have

gone this far into game development uh

or have been as

aspirational as i have so i don't really

have too many people to like

converse with about it but i do have a

few friends in community management so i

chat to them a lot

yeah you're unique and that's good

because it allows more people to follow

in your footsteps

yeah i do hope you know through it's

something i am with my twitch and my

online communities is i'm very

transparent about you know the

issues i face my adversities you know of

being a solo parent

and a woman in the industry as well i'm

very open about that stuff

and uh you know i really care about

those uh human

to human sort of genuine interactions uh

where you can

you know inspire other people you they

could be like hey

this person's going through this i don't

feel as alone you know i'm all about

that sort of thing so

yeah this just felt like a natural step

for me to take

making a studio that's inclusive diverse

and

focused on accessibility

now the studio how did this come about

so uh when i was sort of stagnant you

know it was during a covert lockdown

when redundancies were made at the

company and i sort of thought you know

where are my next steps

and once i decided you know what i want

to i want to

make an indie studio you know something

small something a bit humble

um and so i was like okay well what what

can i name this company that is

a representative representative of

being inclusive um and so i thought him

and i just sort of brainstormed for a

while and i was like

well everyone likes pie and then

you know people people like food they

like pie so i was like huh

and then i tried to like uh search

different words for

uh different colors you know and

chromatic um

is one of those words that encompasses

um

different uh color spectrums and and

whatnot um so i was like okay well

chromatic pie rolls off the tongue yes

and so i had a vision in my head for the

logo at that point and i was like huh i

want to you know give this to somebody

to create

pixel art her name is cast pixel on

twitter at car's pixel

and i reached out to her and she's um

lgbtq

plus as well and so i just felt like

this perfect fit and what she came up

with was just like the spinning image of

what i had in my head and it just

it just really clicked and so it just

yeah it had to be

all encompassing of the the company's

vision

so that vision you had is exactly what

you have nowadays with the uh

red yellow green blue purple pie we're

all slices from the same place

yeah yeah that's exactly it

thank you no problem and then i saw you

also uh

made a real version of it that is

incredible

so what type of pie is it is it

is made from it's made from sago and

custard

so if you don't know what sega is uh

it's i guess it's

you know everyone knows what rice but

you know what rice pudding is yeah

yeah so it's kind of got the same

texture as rice pudding

except it's sago and it's um it's a

similar texture to rice you know it's

sort of

uh it's sort of firm but sort of soft at

the same time and so and it's flavorless

so

yeah say go and custard i wanted to make

sure it was like bulky like the picture

and uh yeah no it just sort of came to

life it was

you know i thought it would be a neat

launching thing you know to have it on

the website at launch

yeah that's awesome i was like no way

you made the pie come to life

now how long did it take you to make the

pie come to light like did you spend

time like studying recipes

or did you already like do you bake a

lot so did you really know how to like

make a pie

i i don't do a lot of baking um but

you know i was thinking back to the time

i made my very first pumpkin pie

you know because uh america yes

so i was like you know what if i can

make pumpkin pie for the first time i

think i can experiment with this so

i think for me you know i the blog

is actually on the website creditpie.com

i actually have listed you know how the

steps and

what i did to make the pie and my my

three-year-old son helped me which was

incredible

um but yeah i know i was just

experimenting it took a two to

a few different tries with a friend as

well to get it right

and uh yeah i finally just just landed

on

a decent one but

yeah it was it was fun yeah and then how

did you get the colors to be

perfect like that because i would

imagine i had to mix them in different

walls yeah i had to like

segregate their colors into different

bowls and add in

the right amount of food coloring and

and then just carefully like

make them into like this circle i have

an eye for detail so

this really helped me in this regard

oh i see you made one version it just

didn't look like the way you wanted to

work out yeah yeah

wow that's that's unique

that's amazing i want to try some now so

like you're saying this soon they're

going to have over like

you can buy some or just just to make

the recipe for all the recipes that was

just like a

novelty thing you know something fun to

put out there that would make people

uh interested yeah wow

so then you started the the chromatic

pie

in october of last year right yes yes

so what was the process like leading up

to that moment

like the technical stuff so you came up

with your idea

what did you do next um

so i i didn't launch the studio

without having a game in mind so what i

did was

really just try to detail as much as i

can about a video game idea

and really just go through and make sure

that

it's something that i'm happy with

before i can hand it off to

uh developers to to bring it to life so

so that is something i worked on there

writing some documentation but also you

know the business side of things like

incorporating the company uh getting

those bank accounts up and running

um you know my my accountant that does

all my lorry pops

uh content creation stuff he's doing my

chromatic pie stuff and he's just

absolutely amazing so

you know i made sure that i i set all

these important things up you know but

pretty base level uh business stuff

and so i did that and yeah

i guess you know just making sure the

website was up and running i tried to

make the website uh

as accessible as possible i tried to

make it um easy to read

easy to to navigate and i was actually

really surprised because you know i

didn't have any help with the website's

design i just went on squarespace and

picked a layout and then adjusted it

from there

but when i went onto this accessibility

tool website you actually enter in your

website and it tells you how

accessible it is and where you need to

improve so i actually got i think a 97

percent rating

um and yeah so i was like wow like i

actually

you know my um my intuition really

paid off there i you know i did it all

quite well

um so i was really proud of that you

know and just yeah making sure i had all

these things done like the the fun thing

like the pie

um and i've got some hats as well

some keratic pie caps and bucket hats

too

so i was just yeah organizing quite a

few things behind the scene to

make the launch as as impressionable as

possible

oh i see you get the cp bucket head and

the cp brush cotton cap

for the two different hats that's so

cool that's awesome

i need to get myself one there

so i see you also so the game you work

on is a unity 2d platform game

yes details

are just keeping it all secret yeah it's

a secret for now

uh so yeah it is a 2d pixel platformer

on unity

um it is

yeah i don't really know how much i can

say about it without

without giving it away i would say that

it isn't

like any other platformer um

that you know of or that you've played a

specifically designed a core element and

actually two core elements of the game

this is what you want but you know when

you're

in the game design you want it to uh be

different from

other games and to some degree so i've

got two core elements that'll really

make people

think you know wow this is interesting

well that's really

that's really fun while this works out

really good you know so that was really

important to me to make the game

um stand out from the crowd and have a

chance of of being

more successful than it would if it was

just another

2d platformer yeah and then for the

development team is it how many people

is it or

yeah is

would you be surprised it's just me

right now

so i've done everything right now

however um

i have been in talks with uh two

investors that are really interested in

coming on board

that is another thing you know indeed

and these studios really struggle with

finding

funding um and finding

you know just that support that you

really need so i've been lucky with my

with my social media presence and status

and a lot of people

know about being new zealand and

overseas as well

and you know an investor one of the

first investors that found me

found me on twitch and he just tuned in

to

watch my uh the last of us part two

uh gameplay and what i thought of the

game and i just happened to be talking

about chromatic pie at the time

and then he reached out to me on

linkedin and then we started talking

and you know those sort of things are

like crazy you know like what if he

tuned in at a different time i would

have missed that opportunity

uh completely you know that's like

yeah yeah it definitely is so so that

was sort of how that came about

and i knew that my business

uh was unique from all others you know

from conception what it's all about the

logo the name and everything

i knew that i could grab attention from

current you know

future investors that way um also with

my status in the country and

globally in the industry and so another

investor uh which i i won't name any of

them

but the second investor that's

interested is from america and i've

known

them for a very long time and

you know they're entrepreneurs and you

just never know

where your contacts are gonna like link

into each other

or anything like that but i've actually

enrolled myself into an incubation

program

a business incubation program that goes

for uh

three months to 12 months so i'm really

just trying to do all these things

myself

to make sure that um i have enough money

to hire people

when the time comes that i can be a good

boss

that i can really lift up the company

and ensure its success

and so yeah i really needed to do all

this

ground level work first before i could

get anybody else on board with me

oh yeah that's key because you need to

make sure you're all set and prepared to

launch your business to success and

that's another thing

for any all the students listening that

like you must

focus on the small things you don't

think it's important but it becomes

important like

lawyers um having like legal stuff

taking care of the bank accounts

the logo on the website all other stuff

is like cool and nice but there's a lot

of like different things too that's

really important and then you know

you're killing it so

congratulations yeah i do want to say

that um you know

game developers uh you know they can

make

amazing games but they don't always make

great business people

or great managers or great studio owners

so that's one thing i really want to

emphasize is you really need to educate

yourself on how to run a business

um doesn't matter how talented you are

at

making a game you really need to get the

business side so for me

business side comes more naturally to me

and

game development is more secondary so

yeah i would say that nice and so for

with the little bit that you are doing

are you like doing the game design part

of it

planning out blah blah blah making

prototypes drawing stuff

or you just come up at the end and

eventually going to get everyone else to

like build your vision

i've written some because i was a

producer for the

design department you know as i said

like i hold on to things and i'm like a

sponge so

um i saw you know the documentation um

the you know the prototypes that they

had made you know

just everything um i really took it on

board and so i'm doing

uh what i can outside of the unity

engine at the moment

so once i hire people they will be

actually creating the prototype

for me on a contract um and then we'll

go and secure more funding if we haven't

already

and then i'll officially employ them if

they want to stay on board

and then hire like a wider team so

that's sort of my game plan at the

moment but as far as the game design

goes

uh you know i've designed the the sort

of

vision for the intro of the game the

cutscenes

uh the first uh narration of the game

and you know who you interact with as a

player first and i've i've sort of laid

out their vision so it's easy to sort of

uh pivot off

when it does come to putting it um into

a prototype

wow that's incredible and for anybody

who doesn't really understand

like the process that it takes how long

has have you been like designing this

game and it's been in your mind and

and then how do you well first answer

that and we'll get to

a little bit more into it okay so as of

this year

i've gone full time into working on the

business

last year was more sort of part-time

um you know because last year was quite

tough for everybody and i was still

streaming and whatnot so

um i would say from

oh i don't really know exactly when i

started designing my game

i had a game idea that had the same core

mechanics but the story was different

and i decided that i needed to iterate

on the story

it was actually going to be about uh

mental health

and so i thought you know what that's

actually

i want to do that sometime but i think

as a first title it's probably a bit too

much

um you know those shoes are really big

to fill and you have to do it right so i

sort of was like okay i'll bench that

for another game and then i decided to

make a different story revolving around

these core mechanics again

and then i was so much happier with this

design so

there has been a second iteration of the

game already

um that just you know this year i'm

hoping to

get the prototype done around about

mid-year

and i'm aiming to release the game 2023

possibly 2024 so just spend it at two or

three years of the game

um you know for chromatic pie i don't

see

the studio turning into a big um

realistic graphics uh big aaa

sort of sort of company i want to work

on

smaller games so the company can work on

different ips

at the same time and

yeah hopefully raking more money that

way than you know spending

five to six seven eight years on one

title

you know that's pretty tough it's pretty

tough on the team

and i i am so wowed by the companies

that that do that

but i've also seen the the struggles and

the many struggles

of you know going through that so for me

i want to have small teams working on

smaller games

um and yet run the company that way

that's smart we have a saying in this

podcast where it's like don't make wow

don't make the biggest thing possible

make small games

and then eventually you can make that

yeah

just down the line yeah yeah exactly

and so then when you're now designing

and thinking about this game do you have

like

as like a setup that you have to design

the game like do you have like a board

nodes flow charts yeah so

yep so i have a whiteboard which i laid

out

my sort of uh the steps to

the game's completion and then involved

in the earlier days like launching the

website

um completing the business plan uh you

know all these

little all this this little road map of

those sort of things

um so i'm a visual person and i need to

you know have that sort of

vision that's that's always there for me

to look at uh so i had that i've also

got a compendium

that's filled with you know my ideas

meeting notes from the meetings that i

have being a producer you know i've

i really learned a lot of skills with

taking down notes and referring to them

later

so i found that yeah compendium was very

helpful

um what else have i got i've got a book

it's actually just like a i don't know

if i have it here with me at the moment

but

it's just like a a 2b 2b

i think a red book and i just scribbled

in it all these game ideas you know on

every single page just like leaving my

brain just like

fight to the paper and um

nice and so like that really helped me

like just get all the creativity out and

then from there i put it into like a

more tidier format

um so i am someone that doesn't really

like to

write all my ideas digitally from the

get go i'm more of someone that likes

pencil and paper you know pen on paper

and then yeah go from there um

you know i mean the kids these days that

are growing up they're gonna be more

digital you know

put it all in there but for me you know

i it helps my creativity when i hold

like a pin in my hand

um and you know i've got a uh a

microsoft

uh laptop that microsoft kindly uh

gifted to me

for the use of chromatic pie which was

amazing

thank you again if you're listening but

so i use that

as a as a dedicated uh device for

chromatic pie and it's strong enough to

run

unity it comes off as a tablet as well

uh so i can draw on it and it's just

yeah

yeah you really need to surround

yourself with um these different

um pieces that allow you to incorporate

them separately

um and put them into a computer when

you're done

and do you have anything running on

unity yet like a little like

little moving flick blob

yeah so i i we i started learning about

unity

uh last year because the studio i worked

at worked inside unreal

so unity was something new for me but i

i knew that

working on a platformer in unity was was

quite beneficial

so i went through their sort of

tutorials and at the moment i'm still

um gaining a deeper understanding on how

to

uh how to work it there's a youtube

channel called bracky's

i don't know if you know that youtube

channel yeah so they've been super

helpful

and they made a video i think a few

months ago or something that they're

like they're gone they're like goodbye

i was like no i can use you

yeah but you know there's heaps on there

so i'm all about uh self

you know teaching yourself uh motivating

yourself

um actually another important aspect i

didn't tell you uh

with you know starting chromatic pies

i've actually been listening to a lot of

audio books

on uh entrepreneurship and on business

and on

um finally really who's your favorite or

what's your favorite book

so most of them are uh written by women

and they're read by women because i

really do want to

listen you know and feel related to

in that regard so i don't i i've got my

phone in here i'll have to

reference to my phone because my memory

is uh is not the best

it's all good so i've listened to

uh unapologetically ambitious by shelly

archambault

the entrepreneur roller coaster by

darren hardy that was written by

a male um culture wins by

william van der blumen so i've listened

to quite a few and also some on just

video games and making video games in

general and they're super helpful

you know they're just i think people

should really

turn to self-help i don't know is there

a stigma around like

self-help you know that it doesn't

actually work because

i feel like that it's true but for me

like i've actually absorbed everything

as much as i can and it's it's great

yeah you're like my life is awesome i

don't know

but it's working for me no i self-help

is interesting because it

it does work it essentially i think

self-help

is what they teach you is pretty much

that's it like

so if one person tells you well you know

how to do this it's not

you don't need to read 30 or 40 other

books because they're all going to

basically tell you the same thing in

their own way

so i think that's where the stigma comes

where it's just like you get in the

cycle you keep reading the same thing

over and over and you feel motivated but

it's like all right you got the message

now go make it happen go do your thing

whoever

told you doesn't matter but just go i

think that's where the signal comes from

and just disunderstand and the whole

gurus online there's a lot of people

online

who destroy the self-help image they

don't know what they're talking about or

are they just starting their careers and

it's like maybe

you shouldn't be the one telling me how

to get my life

like so that's where the stigma i think

comes from but i i think it works

perfectly fine

and then actually this is another good

book you should read it's called

undaunted by characters

i've been thinking about picking that

one up yeah you sure it's amazing

it's it's incredible she's an amazing

person actually i did the podcaster

yesterday

where we talked about yeah so again she

just has this

uh mentality of just like whatever is in

front of me that's okay

i will get through it this might not

work what can we do and that's one of my

favorite quotes

look it's like yeah you're right like

okay this obstacles in my way i can't do

this

but what can i do besides all that what

can we do to go around it to make it

happen because

why not let's just let's see what

happens you can try she says

the one thing that really is important

to her and what everybody should like

take from the podcast is just try

just try it just try that studio you

want to make just try to make that game

just try to do that

to get la's just try you'll never know

what could happen you might succeed if

you don't you learn

you do when you learn exactly so that's

what i take from self-help and it's

helped me too like i

i don't know what to tell people i know

i'm sorry

to work for you i mean i didn't spend

like ten thousand dollars on things so

that might be the thing too

i just buy the books and then listen to

the free stuff online and

so yep exactly yeah no it's um they've

been

extremely valuable and i think i will

always listen you know i've got the

monthly

um audible um

ship uh what do you call it um

subscription

so i'm always going to be reading

because of that

i love reading reading is so much fun

you learn so much

i feel like nobody reads anymore i don't

know if that's just me but i don't know

well for me i listen to the audiobook so

i can like do my dishes like i have to

multitask i don't want to like

i can't sit still for too long like i'm

always like moving my hand or my leg or

something so

i love listening to audio books because

i can like do something else at the same

time

so how do you like stay put when you

twitch streaming do you just like how

long do you twist before

um possibly i think nowadays between two

and four hours at a time

you know nothing too uh in my earlier

twitch streaming days

i would do a 24 hour stream about once a

week

yeah and it was not good for my health

no not

at all you know it's not healthy you

know it's not sustainable um

so again do i stream for shorter than

this

how'd you stay put when you're doing

twitch streams you just like in the flow

focus yeah you know i do i

i shift myself on my seat sometimes i

i get sore knees you know if i sit for

too long so i am

yeah so i have to like uh what i'm doing

right now is i've got my legs on one of

my computers underneath the desk

stretching out so yeah you know that's

just it's just me

um a lot of people are like that as some

can just like stay

still for hours on ends and i'm like how

do you do that

yeah it's hard i i have a little thing

for my feet to like raise me up so i can

stay

comfortable but it's tough i don't know

because i see this chair like most of my

day

so yeah

those standing deaths are pretty good

but i don't know if i

i'd probably like switch it up like five

times a day and be like

it's too comfortable to like as much as

it helps it's nice like

i don't know there's just something nice

about being like all right i'm in my

chair

i'm like it's like star trek i'm

enterprise i'm in control

i don't know yeah

that's funny but yeah so let's see

what that mentality you talk about being

to self-help do you feel like that's

something

people can learn to grow into or is that

something that's just like

it's like what's the inner talk that

goes through you that makes you be more

optimistic because i feel like you're

very optimistic go get a courageous

person so like

yes what goes through your mindset is it

like hey this is not gonna work out and

you're like no it is and then you go do

it like

but you're in a diary yeah you know i

thought i've got a lot of fight

in me um and i do like to exhaust my

options so i know

that they're exhausted you know if they

if they don't work out

so for example example when i moved to

usa you know i before i moved over there

with my son

i was like you know what i don't want to

leave my family

i don't want to feel alone you know all

these things and

i don't want to you know leave this

person

so i was just like you know what i just

need to go

because i might regret it later on if i

don't and so i went

and it didn't work out and it was

horrible but i don't regret it and i i

learnt so much

and it's sort of the same attitude that

i took with me

so i moved back to my mother's place

when i moved back from america

i did previously have my own apartment

but someone else

moved in unfortunately so i went back to

my mom's

and then i got my job in community

management and being a producer and i

actually moved

so i moved to where i am now called

wellington

and i have no family here it's just me

and my son and so i moved here not

knowing many people

um making friends at the studio i was at

and so you know i i am quite brave in

that regard and i've sort of

you know come up with this this attitude

and this

this way of life where you just need to

you need to do the thing

you know for me it's a matter of

securing a good life for my son and for

myself

and you know doing something i'm

passionate about and

there's nothing that could really get in

my way to to achieve that so it really

depends on like how badly you

you want something how badly you're

envisioning it

so self-help books when i first started

listening to them

that and uh their inner voice for me was

like

uh these people are strangers you know

they're telling you

what to do because you're not doing it

right you know

and so like that's it that's a natural

response to have but you do get past

that and then you become more like open

to

others perspectives experiences and it

makes you just a better like

all-around person and so that's really

why i

do enjoy listening to them yeah i think

everybody should at least like

surround themselves with something

self-help-ish whether it's motivational

videos or inspiration or audiobooks

because i also kind of like that quote

where who you surround yourself is who

you will be

so if like let's say you're in a bad

environment if you put on the headphones

and put on positive stuff you're gonna

feel better you're gonna

you're gonna feel like in in fact you

might even feel like those are your

friends so you'll be like i wanna

impress them i wanna be like them i

don't want to let them down

so you start to work on yourself start

to take care of yourself better start to

mentally think positive thoughts it's

it's crazy what your environment can do

you can put you in a negative place or a

positive place so try to move yourself

forward into a positive place exactly

so when you learn you're learning unity

right now what is the process like for

you learning unity are you

just like watching a video day you

spending like tons of hours

how do you effectively learn unity um

as of this year i haven't learned too

much i've been working on the studio

since uh the 11th of january so

i've already been full time for a little

bit this year but for me

um i started my process uh yeah just

downloading it going through the

tutorials unity is really great because

you've got these uh different tutorials

suited for

how you want to use unity you know what

kind of game do you want to make

and so they've got a platformer tutorial

that was really helpful to me so i've

gone through that a few

times and i do i'm a big person for

doing something more than once you know

if you really want to retain

um what you're learning you need to do

it more than once you

need to do it multiple times so i'm

doing that and also

you know the brekkies videos um i'm also

learning from other youtube people and

the game dev scene as well

um i really just yeah surround myself

with these different people different

mediums of

uh ways to learn you know things that i

i need i feel that i need to learn

um so i'm really just trying to support

myself in that manner but

you know unity is going to take some

time um i you know in my job role as a

studio director and owner i'm not going

to be inside unity a lot but i do feel

it's important to have you know

the a decent understanding of the engine

that you are

using um because if you don't then then

what are you doing yeah exactly right

you know

that's literally so i'm not going full

head but i am learning enough yeah

yeah there's no self-help thing

everywhere it's just like even if you're

not going to

i don't know how it was like leadership

it's like if you're going to be a leader

of somebody at least have an

understanding of what they're doing so

that way you can understand that

the progress they're at like if somebody

says hey i need to like do this thing

you're like

i understand it's going to take you

probably six hours instead of being like

why don't you have it done or like get

it's like no

you have an understanding so you can

better handle and lead your team

towards you know build a better culture

because of that so yeah

i agree yep exactly definitely

so if anybody wanted to volunteer for

let's say like to help you

out what what is the process like that

are you doing anything like that

or you're just keeping it closed until

you have all your investors

um yeah for me it's you know i've got

some friends that are interested in

coming on board i've got one that wants

to

possibly be on the board of directors

and he

is he loves video games plays them but

he's more of like you know the business

east side

type of thing so i've had support from

friends like that

also other friends in the industry that

are just you know an ear for me to

to talk to and to bounce ideas off and

it's it's really important to have that

sort of support system whether they're

going to be a co-founder or not you know

you need to talk to people

and and tell them what your plans are

and if necessary you know get them to

sign an nda

if you're telling secrets or something

oh yeah definitely be careful there

yeah so those are those are really

important um

but yeah for me at the moment is just

you know hopefully

uh getting into their incubation program

i'm doing the prerequisites right now

so i can um so what they what they are

they're called creative hq

and uh here in wellington and they're a

council funded

startup sort of supporting program and

so

if i get into there with my business

then they can

help me find more funding um and they'll

obviously like coach me on um making

sure my business is gonna succeed and

you know strategies and all that sort of

thing that can really help me so

yeah finding those avenues where you

know you're going to benefit from

um is extremely helpful and finding

funding is not easy so just just try and

try and stick at it yeah i like that

advice about the funding

now are you ever going to plan on doing

like a chromatic

pie discord or do you already have one i

i do have one but i haven't made it

public yet

uh i haven't finished all the channels

but yes i will be

uh launching a chromatic pie discord

there is also a

reddit page as well so make sure i've

got all the different social medias done

ready and again i yeah well kind of i

haven't

made the reddit public either i'm sort

of like okay once i make it public i'm

to have to spend time maintaining it

yeah true yeah

it's going to be yeah

[Laughter]

awesome okay and then so there's two

more things

one is what advice would you give

anybody short advice because we already

talked about mostly but for anybody just

saying hey i want to start my studio i

don't know where to go

what's like something short you would

tell them

um i would say you know um

the way i did it was you know is it

really what you want to do

you know you once you become an

entrepreneur you sort of have to

uh dedicate time and effort and money

even into you know

starting up the business that you want

to start up so

you can't just start it and then walk

away you know you have to be dedicated

and motivated to do it so

for me i had that uh from there you know

finding a name

for your business that stands out and

from the others you know that

encompasses

uh your vision which i found was like a

really neat amalgamation

uh to make uh you know you can name your

business

like for example like uh jbl you know

what does that mean i don't know what

that means um but you know like there's

you know juice box lovers

yeah yeah well like you know so there's

these names that can be catchy but they

have no meaning

so you know try and get a little bit

crafty with it um

which i found has really like benefited

me in chromatic pie because people it

can really relate uh

to what it is um and then you know just

yeah pushing forward and just being

motivated helping yourself

um don't be afraid to listen to other

people's opinions or perspectives you

know you need to bring those on board

i'm actually going to be conducting some

interviews next week

with accessibility and representation

so i'm interviewing people with uh um

who are partially blind who have various

disabilities and then also interviewing

people in their lgbtq

people of color and women and so

what i've done is i've it's called an

empathy interview

so you've got these cards that you lay

out and you name there

for example i've named five facts and

assumptions

that lay out the problems the solutions

the outcome

and the value of the product or what

you're trying to

to achieve and so i'll be with what i've

written down i'll be talking to these

people with accessibility

and and representation to really like

nail down

um if i have a really good idea on where

i want to go and how to make

the industry a a better place and how to

make games more accessible

so you know just exhaust all these

different avenues that could really like

launch yourself into being

successful wow that's a lot and that's

awesome

sorry yeah no no it's all good there is

a lie

and then lastly i like to do a little

challenge at the end because over the

game

courses have a challenge for the each

lecture so what would your challenge be

for all listeners listening could be

related to

being a studio it could be related to

producing really it's whatever you want

like would like it to be and you could

take

as much time you need to think of a

challenge

a challenge um oof i would say

oh can i mention audiobooks again

yeah you can yeah that's perfect go read

an audio book take

like you know aim for one audio book

a month you know to start off with aim

for that um

and the area that you want to learn from

um

you know i'll say that with like

anything you know whether it's a youtube

video

and watch you know maybe one youtube

video a week from

uh something you want to learn about um

honestly i'm just so like seated and

just doing it yourself you can do it you

know when

i was smaller or even when my when my

mum was my age you know

our parents they didn't have what we

have now you know they don't they didn't

have the internet with youtube and

all these different forums and advice

and you know everything we're so lucky

to grow up in this technological era so

definitely make the the most of it um

and learn

where you can um i would say

i don't know if i can name just just one

challenge because

it's all very like well-rounded um

so i i can't i'm sorry that's a little i

think that's all i'm going to say

it's all good that works picking on your

book you read it

and it's it's a challenge for you

listeners don't let anyone down

the books are good self-help's not evil

i promise

we read anything it could be game design

programming health

uh healthy books nutrition anything pick

a book

expand your mind grow i like it but yeah

so thank you for coming on this has been

so much fun

learning a lot love the chromatic pie i

love the pie i need to make that one day

i'm gonna

i love vegans i need that'd be so cute

yeah i'll tell you how to make it yeah

yes awesome yeah and then so usually at

the end we'll just

hand the mic to you when doing last

minute shout outs you know last minute

quotes whatever you feel

and thank you for coming on thank you

well yeah thank you so much for having

me it's been a pleasure you know i'm i'm

really honored that you reached out to

me

and uh i'm just so happy to be here and

for

everyone listening um i believe in you

just do the thing you know don't hold

yourself back you

you don't want to hold yourself back you

know be be a go-getter but be a smart

go-getter you know don't don't do it

overbought

um but you can reach me on uh at

loripops on twitter

you can reach me on um you can go to

quaranticpi.com

um there is a blog about me there and

with a little bit more background

information too

and of course on the studio and where we

want to go

and take care during this covered

pandemic

well that's it thanks for listening you

can find all courses at game device tv

or in a show notes at a discounted price

get started with the game development

journey today

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