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One of the most iconic and time-honored human-animal relationships is that of horse and rider.
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From the noble steeds of battle to a little
girl’s first pony, the bond people share
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with their horses seems to border on the profound,
and the idea of giving up riding is incomprehensible.
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So what would lead a lifelong trainer, trader,
and rider, who lived and breathed horses for
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years, to not only give it all up, but even
question concept of domestication itself?
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To look back and realize that what she’d
so long considered her love of horses, was
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in reality her love of power.
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Hi it's Emily from Bite Size Vegan and welcome
to another vegan nugget.
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Of all of the sensitive topics I’ve covered,
from religion to abortion, my videos on horse
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riding ethics have by far sparked the most
controversy.
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While I personally have very limited experience
with horses, my guest today built her entire
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identity around the training, trading and
riding of horses.
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With brutal honesty and admirable self-analysis,
Ren Hurst shares her journey in her memoir
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Riding On The Power Of Others, and was kind
enough to spare some time to be on the channel.
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She has a lot of powerful insights to share,
so let’s get right to it!
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Emily: Ren I want to thank you so much for
taking time out of your schedule to sit here
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and answer some questions and share your journey.
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Ren: Well thank you Emily, I’m honored to
have a chance to talk to you this way
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Emily: So you’ve had a really profound journey
with your relationship to horses, through
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a variety of training philosophies and approaches
over this period.
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Could you share a little of your initial mindset
when you first started working with horses
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informally as a kid, and then how that compared
and evolved with your first formal training?
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Ren: I got my first horse when I was 12 so
it’s right around the time of puberty, my
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home life was a mess, hormones, all kinds
of craziness, it was just literally a way
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to deal with all of that at the time.
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And then around 16 I got my first formal training.
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I really didn’t like how my horse was being
treated, and yet through this - what I perceived
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as violent treatment of her, I was able to
do the things that I wanted to do.
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And it was being condoned, pushed and celebrated
by people who were very, very respected in
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the field of horsemanship but it was effective
and that changed the course of my life -
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being taught violence.
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This was very much the general, traditional
type of horsemanship.
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Basically they were teaching her how to lunge
which is how to send her around in circles
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(on a line usually), and she was really unruly.
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Their answer to that was to run a stud chain
through the halter - the nose of the halter,
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which is very typical, it’s very common
practice.
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And I remember thinking ‘oh my god they’re
really hurting her when they do that’ but
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then they taught me how to do it, and it worked.
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You know that’s the very beginnings of my
journey, but that feeling and that teaching
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at a young age - that it’s ok to control
and use violence to get what you want and
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what you need from somebody, really affected my life
long term.
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Emily: One of the major shifts that you had
with your relationship with horses was your
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introduction to what is called natural horsemanship.
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Can you share a little bit about what that
means and how that differs from what you were
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calling traditional approach?
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Ren: I found natural horsemanship like most
people, I thought that ‘oh wow this is the
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greatest thing ever’.
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And looking back on it now it’s a completely
different way of seeing it.
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But when it was introduced to me I was already
pretty deep in the game, I had already learned
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how to train horses traditionally, I was already
buying and selling and making a profit that way.
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The whole natural horsemanship thing is this
grand delusion of love and cooperation and
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respect and trust because at the end of the
day you are still forcing the horse, you are
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still moving their feet, you are still manipulating,
you are still coercing, you are still the
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one that has the say at the end of the day.
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And they sell it in this little gift wrapped
package of love and cooperation and respect
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and trust, and there’s just this total cognitive
dissonance with people, that if you apply
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those same terms to your personal human relationships that is not what those words look like.
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It’s based on watching natural herd dynamics,
but what people don’t realise is that it’s
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based on natural herd dynamics in survival
mode, not in the natural true essence of a
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thriving community of wild horses in their
natural state, where resources are abundant,
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and there’s more harmony and cooperation,
which we don’t see here in America because
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wild horse herds are under a tremendous amount
of stress, due to the fact that the predators
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are gone because we’re using their land
to graze sheep and cattle and it’s all a
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mess and quite honestly it all goes back to
people’s desire to eat meat.
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But basing natural horsemanship on the natural
dynamics of horses the way they are today
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is like basing natural human behaviour on
watching a prison yard.
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Emily: So one of the schools that you go to
towards the end of your journey through the
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different methodologies of training and something
that you flirted with a little bit on and
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off throughout the book before that period
was with Alexander Nevzorov.
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Could you talk a little bit about his approach
because it seems to be the most outlying of
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all of the different formal trainings with
the horse cannon.
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Ren: Basically it’s approaching the horse
as an absolute equal and really meaning that.
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I mean, you don’t talk down to them, you don’t
anthropomorphize, it’s all very logical,
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very practical.
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Zero equipment is needed or necessary.
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No treats, no coercion, no anything.
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You have nothing but your authentic self to
show up with and present to this horse,
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and basically the education of the horse looks
very similar to how you would educate a small
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child that does not speak English.
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And so it took a tremendous amount of faith
on my part just to believe that maybe this
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is possible.
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And it was that faith that took me through
the barriers of realising what in fact was
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possible with these animals and how horrendous
it is, what we do to them when they are capable
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of understanding us at such an elevated level.
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Emily: On your book it is very clear that
you’ve built your entire identity around
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training, trading, and riding horses.
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So how and why do you finally reach the decision
to give up riding?
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Ren: It was not an easy decision.
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It was extremely emotional, I remember the
very moment that I sat Brandy down in my office
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and I took her hand and said: ‘I’m really
sorry, but I can’t ride anymore’.
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That was our whole life, which meant that
our whole future was going to be totally shifted
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because of this decision.
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She wasn’t ready to quit riding and neither
was my apprentice.
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My apprentice still rides.
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Nobody in my life.
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I had a huge following in Texas, and everybody
thought I had completely gone off the deep end.
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I can explain this all day long,
and people can get it in their heads all day
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long (which is what drives me crazy about
people needing the science of it) because
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as important of that is, this is an experiential
change, and it can only be changed through
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the feeling of the experience of connecting
with an animal in this profound way.
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Most people have no idea that the animals
they are spending time with are in an absolute
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state of learned helplessness, of conditioning,
that doesn’t even allow to experience their
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true nature. What you are experiencing is like this empty
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shell version, or even an ignorant version
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of the animal in front of you.
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That is why a lot of times the animals come
out as seemingly unintelligent, because we
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keep them stupid.
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So because of the NHE school, I was experiencing
Shai in an entirely different way than I had
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ever experienced a horse before, because the
school required me to show up and treat him
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as an equal.
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So that’s what I did and by God if he didn’t
show up as one.
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The level of communication sucked, it ruined
my life.
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Here’s the thing, once I had experienced
it with him we started applying it to our
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other horses and one by one they started healing
and changing and becoming totally different
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versions of themselves (when we had know these
horses for years).
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We were those people that would have said:
‘we have this beautiful relationship blah
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blah blah…’
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But we didn’t know any of them.
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The very last horse I had in my training paddock—I’ve
always had a really hard time actually talking
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to the animals because it felt awkward—I
got up there and I sat on his back and I placed
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my hands on his withers and I just asked him:
‘Is it OK for me to be up here?’
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And he just had this really deep sigh and
dropped his head.
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I don’t know how to explain this other than
it felt like he said ‘yes’ but with total
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resignation, like it wasn’t coming from
a good place.
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I knew that feeling, I knew that feeling deeply
of saying ‘yes’ when it really, really
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wasn’t what you wanted.
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I just slipped off of him and I was completely
done.
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I had trained hundreds of horses, I’m not
an idiot, I could go back through that film
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reel of all the horses I trained and remember
all the times they said ‘no’, and I manipulated
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them into saying ‘yes’ or loved them enough
to get them to say ‘yes’ to me all the time.
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But with Shai, because the school required
you to honor every single ‘no’ 100%, if
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he said ‘no’ in any way, all I could do
was walk away.
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It wasn’t about manipulating or getting
to the ‘yes’, it was about dropping all
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sense of agenda or expectation, and allowing
the horse to truly have an equal say in whatever
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developed between the two of you.
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Nobody does that in training.
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That’s not training, that’s relationship.
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You have to almost experience a truly free
horse if you’re a trainer to walk away from
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it, otherwise your perception of what horses
are and how they behave is really skewed.
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We really don’t know the essence of what
love really means, and that’s what this
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work has turned into beyond horse training
or NHE or any of that.
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The whole thing we do now, is we’ve essentially
learned a method of undomesticating animals
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or people in a domesticated state through
this unconditional love and action which is
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extremely difficult, is not woo-woo, it’s
very logical, it’s very practical, it works,
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it’s very effective, and you have to be
really ready to show up for it because it
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brings up the darkest aspects of you that
most people don’t want to face, which is
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why most people like to keep their animals
the way they are because that is their source
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of unconditional love that they’re not willing
to find within themselves.
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And the way we work with animals here at the
sanctuary is it’s a practice center.
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It’s practicing this way of relating in
a truly unconditional manner that heals the
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domesticated subject and gives you a chance
to heal yourself out of a domesticated state
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that society and conditioning has placed us
in.
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So, by liberating the animals, and practicing
working within these parameters of keeping
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it honest and keeping it at that level, you
grow tremendously as a person and there’s
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not a lot of people signing up for that yet
because it’s really hard work.
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Emily: So one of the main objections that
I hear from horse owners in response to a
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few of the videos I’ve done on horse ethics,
which I read throughout your book as well,
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is this assertion that - they love their horses,
and that their horses in turn love to be ridden.
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You know how people say, “My horse even
comes up and asks to be ridden, or gets excited
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when I have the saddle,” So, how do you
respond when you receive these kind of objections?
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Ren: Well, it depends on if I’m trying to
word it in a way that actually reaches people
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or if I just answer off-the-cuff, because
it is insanity, it’s absolute insanity,
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and what’s worse about it is that many of
the horses that are displaying these behaviors
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that they like to be strapped with the dead
body parts of another animal and have this
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metal rod stuck in their mouth, they probably
do because their life experience is
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so limited, that that looks like fun in comparison
to standing in a stall all day.
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There’s such a disconnect between this use of
the word “love,” and what we actually
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do with these animals.
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I know that these people feel love towards
their horses, without a doubt, no question,
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but, if it’s the same love that you feel
toward your family members - I mean, do you
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place your family members in bondage, micro-manage
every aspect of their lives, and then climb
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on them whenever you want and ask them to
take you around.
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The answer is ‘no,’ and if you do, I don’t
want to be a part of your family.
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But, it’s like, how obvious is that?
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That’s not a loving relationship, and it’s
not an equal relationship.
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This is a being you have placed in your control
and in your care, and then you call that “love.”
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What that is, is something entirely different.
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I mean, there’s nothing “loving” about
using someone for your own personal benefit.
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Love is way bigger than just a feeling.
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That feeling is more like affection, and it’s
more attachment-based.
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Emily: Why do you think that this is so difficult
for people to break
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with this concept of riding horses?
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Ren: People are deeply attached to being able
to use the horse for their sense of power
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- women especially.
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Ninety-five percent of my clientele, the whole
time I was in the horse industry, was women,
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ages, probably between 40 and 75 years old,
and I cannot even tell you how many times
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I’ve heard the words, “my horses saved
my life.”
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It’s such a painful thing to hear, and I
don’t argue with people when I hear it.
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But the truth is, is if your emotional connection
to another being is where your dependency
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on survival lies, then you’re
giving your power away, and women taking the
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power away from the horses is a lot of times
how they make it in this world, when the rest
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of their relationships are not necessarily
working, or if they don’t feel powerful
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in other areas of their lives, and I saw this
again and again and again.
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When I stopped riding, and was still trimming
hooves for my clients, so many of them would
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get tears in their eyes because they could
see and feel the truth of what I was talking
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about and they knew someone like me would
never give up riding if there wasn’t something
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profoundly true about why I did it, because
I’m not that person.
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This wasn’t an easy emotional decision for
me, it just makes absolute sense.
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But to give that up before they knew what
to replace it with would’ve been death
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for them - maybe literally.
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Riding, to many people, is as much a dependency
as any other drug that’s keeping them functioning.
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It’s a really, really hard thing to give
up if it’s your main source of joy
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and freedom in the world
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Emily: There are many vegans that continue
to ride horses - do you find that the objections
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that you receive for giving up riding mirror
those that we tend to receive when people
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are resisting shifting to veganism?
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Ren: Many vegans, whether they understand
it or know it or not, are still exploiting animals.
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When the focus is on the actual physical harm,
rather than the exploitation aspect of this,
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there’s still a disconnect.
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So it’s very similar, the arguments remain
the same because people are jumping on this
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moral issue rather than the issue of ‘why
are we doing this in the first place
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and is it necessary?’
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‘And what am I getting out of it and what
are my motivations for continuing it?’
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“Having underestimated the intelligence
level of animals for so long and at such great
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depth, when I was exposed to the truth of
what they were really able to understand,
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being surrounded by them left me feeling
like a slave owner.
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It’s no wonder we keep them stupid.
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Isn’t that exactly how we were able to control
members of our own species for so long?
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One will never be able to understand the intellectual
capability of another if they are only willing
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to weigh it against their own understanding
of that individual.
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If we believe animals to be stupid, and we
keep them under our control,
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they will be stupid.
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Unless we create an environment and a situation
where they can advance.”
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I hope you enjoyed hearing from Ren about
her journey.
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You can find links below to her ongoing video
series on Facebook and YouTube, as well
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as to her book and the New World Sanctuary
Foundation to follow and support their work.
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It’s important for all of us—vegans included—to
be mindful of our relationships and interactions
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with all beings, human and non-human alike.
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If you liked this video, do give it a thumbs up and share it around to help
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others learn to truly love horses, and subscribe
for more vegan content every week.
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To help support Bite Size Vegan’s educational
efforts, please see the support links below
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or the link in the sidebar.
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Now go live vegan, learn to love unconditionally,
and I’ll see you soon.