One of the most iconic and time-honored human-animal relationships is that of horse and rider.

From the noble steeds of battle to a little
girl’s first pony, the bond people share

with their horses seems to border on the profound,
and the idea of giving up riding is incomprehensible.

So what would lead a lifelong trainer, trader,
and rider, who lived and breathed horses for

years, to not only give it all up, but even
question concept of domestication itself?

To look back and realize that what she’d
so long considered her love of horses, was

in reality her love of power.

Hi it's Emily from Bite Size Vegan and welcome
to another vegan nugget.

Of all of the sensitive topics I’ve covered,
from religion to abortion, my videos on horse

riding ethics have by far sparked the most
controversy.

While I personally have very limited experience
with horses, my guest today built her entire

identity around the training, trading and
riding of horses.

With brutal honesty and admirable self-analysis,
Ren Hurst shares her journey in her memoir

Riding On The Power Of Others, and was kind
enough to spare some time to be on the channel.

She has a lot of powerful insights to share,
so let’s get right to it!

Emily: Ren I want to thank you so much for
taking time out of your schedule to sit here

and answer some questions and share your journey.

Ren: Well thank you Emily, I’m honored to
have a chance to talk to you this way

Emily: So you’ve had a really profound journey
with your relationship to horses, through

a variety of training philosophies and approaches
over this period.

Could you share a little of your initial mindset
when you first started working with horses

informally as a kid, and then how that compared
and evolved with your first formal training?

Ren: I got my first horse when I was 12 so
it’s right around the time of puberty, my

home life was a mess, hormones, all kinds
of craziness, it was just literally a way

to deal with all of that at the time.

And then around 16 I got my first formal training.

I really didn’t like how my horse was being
treated, and yet through this - what I perceived

as violent treatment of her, I was able to
do the things that I wanted to do.

And it was being condoned, pushed and celebrated
by people who were very, very respected in

the field of horsemanship but it was effective
and that changed the course of my life -

being taught violence.

This was very much the general, traditional
type of horsemanship.

Basically they were teaching her how to lunge
which is how to send her around in circles

(on a line usually), and she was really unruly.

Their answer to that was to run a stud chain
through the halter - the nose of the halter,

which is very typical, it’s very common
practice.

And I remember thinking ‘oh my god they’re
really hurting her when they do that’ but

then they taught me how to do it, and it worked.

You know that’s the very beginnings of my
journey, but that feeling and that teaching

at a young age - that it’s ok to control
and use violence to get what you want and

what you need from somebody, really affected my life
long term.

Emily: One of the major shifts that you had
with your relationship with horses was your

introduction to what is called natural horsemanship.

Can you share a little bit about what that
means and how that differs from what you were

calling traditional approach?

Ren: I found natural horsemanship like most
people, I thought that ‘oh wow this is the

greatest thing ever’.

And looking back on it now it’s a completely
different way of seeing it.

But when it was introduced to me I was already
pretty deep in the game, I had already learned

how to train horses traditionally, I was already
buying and selling and making a profit that way.

The whole natural horsemanship thing is this
grand delusion of love and cooperation and

respect and trust because at the end of the
day you are still forcing the horse, you are

still moving their feet, you are still manipulating,
you are still coercing, you are still the

one that has the say at the end of the day.

And they sell it in this little gift wrapped
package of love and cooperation and respect

and trust, and there’s just this total cognitive
dissonance with people, that if you apply

those same terms to your personal human relationships that is not what those words look like.

It’s based on watching natural herd dynamics,
but what people don’t realise is that it’s

based on natural herd dynamics in survival
mode, not in the natural true essence of a

thriving community of wild horses in their
natural state, where resources are abundant,

and there’s more harmony and cooperation,
which we don’t see here in America because

wild horse herds are under a tremendous amount
of stress, due to the fact that the predators

are gone because we’re using their land
to graze sheep and cattle and it’s all a

mess and quite honestly it all goes back to
people’s desire to eat meat.

But basing natural horsemanship on the natural
dynamics of horses the way they are today

is like basing natural human behaviour on
watching a prison yard.

Emily: So one of the schools that you go to
towards the end of your journey through the

different methodologies of training and something
that you flirted with a little bit on and

off throughout the book before that period
was with Alexander Nevzorov.

Could you talk a little bit about his approach
because it seems to be the most outlying of

all of the different formal trainings with
the horse cannon.

Ren: Basically it’s approaching the horse
as an absolute equal and really meaning that.

I mean, you don’t talk down to them, you don’t
anthropomorphize, it’s all very logical,

very practical.

Zero equipment is needed or necessary.

No treats, no coercion, no anything.

You have nothing but your authentic self to
show up with and present to this horse,

and basically the education of the horse looks
very similar to how you would educate a small

child that does not speak English.

And so it took a tremendous amount of faith
on my part just to believe that maybe this

is possible.

And it was that faith that took me through
the barriers of realising what in fact was

possible with these animals and how horrendous
it is, what we do to them when they are capable

of understanding us at such an elevated level.

Emily: On your book it is very clear that
you’ve built your entire identity around

training, trading, and riding horses.

So how and why do you finally reach the decision
to give up riding?

Ren: It was not an easy decision.

It was extremely emotional, I remember the
very moment that I sat Brandy down in my office

and I took her hand and said: ‘I’m really
sorry, but I can’t ride anymore’.

That was our whole life, which meant that
our whole future was going to be totally shifted

because of this decision.

She wasn’t ready to quit riding and neither
was my apprentice.

My apprentice still rides.

Nobody in my life.

I had a huge following in Texas, and everybody
thought I had completely gone off the deep end.

I can explain this all day long,
and people can get it in their heads all day

long (which is what drives me crazy about
people needing the science of it) because

as important of that is, this is an experiential
change, and it can only be changed through

the feeling of the experience of connecting
with an animal in this profound way.

Most people have no idea that the animals
they are spending time with are in an absolute

state of learned helplessness, of conditioning,
that doesn’t even allow to experience their

true nature. What you are experiencing is like this empty

shell version, or even an ignorant version

of the animal in front of you.

That is why a lot of times the animals come
out as seemingly unintelligent, because we

keep them stupid.

So because of the NHE school, I was experiencing
Shai in an entirely different way than I had

ever experienced a horse before, because the
school required me to show up and treat him

as an equal.

So that’s what I did and by God if he didn’t
show up as one.

The level of communication sucked, it ruined
my life.

Here’s the thing, once I had experienced
it with him we started applying it to our

other horses and one by one they started healing
and changing and becoming totally different

versions of themselves (when we had know these
horses for years).

We were those people that would have said:
‘we have this beautiful relationship blah

blah blah…’

But we didn’t know any of them.

The very last horse I had in my training paddock—I’ve
always had a really hard time actually talking

to the animals because it felt awkward—I
got up there and I sat on his back and I placed

my hands on his withers and I just asked him:
‘Is it OK for me to be up here?’

And he just had this really deep sigh and
dropped his head.

I don’t know how to explain this other than
it felt like he said ‘yes’ but with total

resignation, like it wasn’t coming from
a good place.

I knew that feeling, I knew that feeling deeply
of saying ‘yes’ when it really, really

wasn’t what you wanted.

I just slipped off of him and I was completely
done.

I had trained hundreds of horses, I’m not
an idiot, I could go back through that film

reel of all the horses I trained and remember
all the times they said ‘no’, and I manipulated

them into saying ‘yes’ or loved them enough
to get them to say ‘yes’ to me all the time.

But with Shai, because the school required
you to honor every single ‘no’ 100%, if

he said ‘no’ in any way, all I could do
was walk away.

It wasn’t about manipulating or getting
to the ‘yes’, it was about dropping all

sense of agenda or expectation, and allowing
the horse to truly have an equal say in whatever

developed between the two of you.

Nobody does that in training.

That’s not training, that’s relationship.

You have to almost experience a truly free
horse if you’re a trainer to walk away from

it, otherwise your perception of what horses
are and how they behave is really skewed.

We really don’t know the essence of what
love really means, and that’s what this

work has turned into beyond horse training
or NHE or any of that.

The whole thing we do now, is we’ve essentially
learned a method of undomesticating animals

or people in a domesticated state through
this unconditional love and action which is

extremely difficult, is not woo-woo, it’s
very logical, it’s very practical, it works,

it’s very effective, and you have to be
really ready to show up for it because it

brings up the darkest aspects of you that
most people don’t want to face, which is

why most people like to keep their animals
the way they are because that is their source

of unconditional love that they’re not willing
to find within themselves.

And the way we work with animals here at the
sanctuary is it’s a practice center.

It’s practicing this way of relating in
a truly unconditional manner that heals the

domesticated subject and gives you a chance
to heal yourself out of a domesticated state

that society and conditioning has placed us
in.

So, by liberating the animals, and practicing
working within these parameters of keeping

it honest and keeping it at that level, you
grow tremendously as a person and there’s

not a lot of people signing up for that yet
because it’s really hard work.

Emily: So one of the main objections that
I hear from horse owners in response to a

few of the videos I’ve done on horse ethics,
which I read throughout your book as well,

is this assertion that - they love their horses,
and that their horses in turn love to be ridden.

You know how people say, “My horse even
comes up and asks to be ridden, or gets excited

when I have the saddle,” So, how do you
respond when you receive these kind of objections?

Ren: Well, it depends on if I’m trying to
word it in a way that actually reaches people

or if I just answer off-the-cuff, because
it is insanity, it’s absolute insanity,

and what’s worse about it is that many of
the horses that are displaying these behaviors

that they like to be strapped with the dead
body parts of another animal and have this

metal rod stuck in their mouth, they probably
do because their life experience is

so limited, that that looks like fun in comparison
to standing in a stall all day.

There’s such a disconnect between this use of
the word “love,” and what we actually

do with these animals.

I know that these people feel love towards
their horses, without a doubt, no question,

but, if it’s the same love that you feel
toward your family members - I mean, do you

place your family members in bondage, micro-manage
every aspect of their lives, and then climb

on them whenever you want and ask them to
take you around.

The answer is ‘no,’ and if you do, I don’t
want to be a part of your family.

But, it’s like, how obvious is that?

That’s not a loving relationship, and it’s
not an equal relationship.

This is a being you have placed in your control
and in your care, and then you call that “love.”

What that is, is something entirely different.

I mean, there’s nothing “loving” about
using someone for your own personal benefit.

Love is way bigger than just a feeling.

That feeling is more like affection, and it’s
more attachment-based.

Emily: Why do you think that this is so difficult
for people to break

with this concept of riding horses?

Ren: People are deeply attached to being able
to use the horse for their sense of power

- women especially.

Ninety-five percent of my clientele, the whole
time I was in the horse industry, was women,

ages, probably between 40 and 75 years old,
and I cannot even tell you how many times

I’ve heard the words, “my horses saved
my life.”

It’s such a painful thing to hear, and I
don’t argue with people when I hear it.

But the truth is, is if your emotional connection
to another being is where your dependency

on survival lies, then you’re
giving your power away, and women taking the

power away from the horses is a lot of times
how they make it in this world, when the rest

of their relationships are not necessarily
working, or if they don’t feel powerful

in other areas of their lives, and I saw this
again and again and again.

When I stopped riding, and was still trimming
hooves for my clients, so many of them would

get tears in their eyes because they could
see and feel the truth of what I was talking

about and they knew someone like me would
never give up riding if there wasn’t something

profoundly true about why I did it, because
I’m not that person.

This wasn’t an easy emotional decision for
me, it just makes absolute sense.

But to give that up before they knew what
to replace it with would’ve been death

for them - maybe literally.

Riding, to many people, is as much a dependency
as any other drug that’s keeping them functioning.

It’s a really, really hard thing to give
up if it’s your main source of joy

and freedom in the world

Emily: There are many vegans that continue
to ride horses - do you find that the objections

that you receive for giving up riding mirror
those that we tend to receive when people

are resisting shifting to veganism?

Ren: Many vegans, whether they understand
it or know it or not, are still exploiting animals.

When the focus is on the actual physical harm,
rather than the exploitation aspect of this,

there’s still a disconnect.

So it’s very similar, the arguments remain
the same because people are jumping on this

moral issue rather than the issue of ‘why
are we doing this in the first place

and is it necessary?’

‘And what am I getting out of it and what
are my motivations for continuing it?’

“Having underestimated the intelligence
level of animals for so long and at such great

depth, when I was exposed to the truth of
what they were really able to understand,

being surrounded by them left me feeling
like a slave owner.

It’s no wonder we keep them stupid.

Isn’t that exactly how we were able to control
members of our own species for so long?

One will never be able to understand the intellectual
capability of another if they are only willing

to weigh it against their own understanding
of that individual.

If we believe animals to be stupid, and we
keep them under our control,

they will be stupid.

Unless we create an environment and a situation
where they can advance.”

I hope you enjoyed hearing from Ren about
her journey.

You can find links below to her ongoing video
series on Facebook and YouTube, as well

as to her book and the New World Sanctuary
Foundation to follow and support their work.

It’s important for all of us—vegans included—to
be mindful of our relationships and interactions

with all beings, human and non-human alike.

If you liked this video, do give it a thumbs up and share it around to help

others learn to truly love horses, and subscribe
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Now go live vegan, learn to love unconditionally,
and I’ll see you soon.