0:00:00.280,0:00:05.860 One of the most iconic and time-honored human-animal relationships is that of horse and rider. 0:00:05.860,0:00:10.110 From the noble steeds of battle to a little[br]girl’s first pony, the bond people share 0:00:10.110,0:00:16.330 with their horses seems to border on the profound,[br]and the idea of giving up riding is incomprehensible. 0:00:16.760,0:00:21.860 So what would lead a lifelong trainer, trader,[br]and rider, who lived and breathed horses for 0:00:21.870,0:00:27.350 years, to not only give it all up, but even[br]question concept of domestication itself? 0:00:27.350,0:00:32.300 To look back and realize that what she’d[br]so long considered her love of horses, was 0:00:32.300,0:00:34.620 in reality her love of power. 0:00:39.040,0:00:42.660 Hi it's Emily from Bite Size Vegan and welcome[br]to another vegan nugget. 0:00:42.670,0:00:47.870 Of all of the sensitive topics I’ve covered,[br]from religion to abortion, my videos on horse 0:00:47.870,0:00:51.559 riding ethics have by far sparked the most[br]controversy. 0:00:51.559,0:00:56.070 While I personally have very limited experience[br]with horses, my guest today built her entire 0:00:56.070,0:00:58.950 identity around the training, trading and[br]riding of horses. 0:00:58.950,0:01:04.890 With brutal honesty and admirable self-analysis,[br]Ren Hurst shares her journey in her memoir 0:01:04.890,0:01:09.840 Riding On The Power Of Others, and was kind[br]enough to spare some time to be on the channel. 0:01:09.840,0:01:13.979 She has a lot of powerful insights to share,[br]so let’s get right to it! 0:01:13.979,0:01:18.160 Emily: Ren I want to thank you so much for[br]taking time out of your schedule to sit here 0:01:18.160,0:01:19.840 and answer some questions and share your journey. 0:01:20.600,0:01:24.220 Ren: Well thank you Emily, I’m honored to[br]have a chance to talk to you this way 0:01:24.220,0:01:27.619 Emily: So you’ve had a really profound journey[br]with your relationship to horses, through 0:01:27.619,0:01:31.390 a variety of training philosophies and approaches[br]over this period. 0:01:31.390,0:01:36.020 Could you share a little of your initial mindset[br]when you first started working with horses 0:01:36.020,0:01:41.640 informally as a kid, and then how that compared[br]and evolved with your first formal training? 0:01:41.640,0:01:45.689 Ren: I got my first horse when I was 12 so[br]it’s right around the time of puberty, my 0:01:45.689,0:01:51.670 home life was a mess, hormones, all kinds[br]of craziness, it was just literally a way 0:01:51.670,0:01:54.579 to deal with all of that at the time. 0:01:54.579,0:01:58.540 And then around 16 I got my first formal training. 0:01:58.540,0:02:05.200 I really didn’t like how my horse was being[br]treated, and yet through this - what I perceived 0:02:05.200,0:02:09.239 as violent treatment of her, I was able to[br]do the things that I wanted to do. 0:02:09.239,0:02:14.800 And it was being condoned, pushed and celebrated[br]by people who were very, very respected in 0:02:14.800,0:02:18.420 the field of horsemanship but it was effective[br]and that changed the course of my life - 0:02:18.420,0:02:19.920 being taught violence. 0:02:19.930,0:02:23.210 This was very much the general, traditional[br]type of horsemanship. 0:02:23.210,0:02:27.819 Basically they were teaching her how to lunge[br]which is how to send her around in circles 0:02:27.819,0:02:31.230 (on a line usually), and she was really unruly. 0:02:31.230,0:02:35.330 Their answer to that was to run a stud chain[br]through the halter - the nose of the halter, 0:02:35.330,0:02:38.610 which is very typical, it’s very common[br]practice. 0:02:39.120,0:02:43.720 And I remember thinking ‘oh my god they’re[br]really hurting her when they do that’ but 0:02:43.720,0:02:47.460 then they taught me how to do it, and it worked. 0:02:47.470,0:02:53.520 You know that’s the very beginnings of my[br]journey, but that feeling and that teaching 0:02:53.520,0:02:59.140 at a young age - that it’s ok to control[br]and use violence to get what you want and 0:02:59.140,0:03:02.069 what you need from somebody, really affected my life[br]long term. 0:03:02.069,0:03:07.230 Emily: One of the major shifts that you had[br]with your relationship with horses was your 0:03:07.230,0:03:09.129 introduction to what is called natural horsemanship. 0:03:09.129,0:03:15.280 Can you share a little bit about what that[br]means and how that differs from what you were 0:03:15.280,0:03:16.500 calling traditional approach? 0:03:16.500,0:03:20.140 Ren: I found natural horsemanship like most[br]people, I thought that ‘oh wow this is the 0:03:20.150,0:03:21.510 greatest thing ever’. 0:03:21.510,0:03:25.610 And looking back on it now it’s a completely[br]different way of seeing it. 0:03:25.610,0:03:30.790 But when it was introduced to me I was already[br]pretty deep in the game, I had already learned 0:03:30.790,0:03:36.730 how to train horses traditionally, I was already[br]buying and selling and making a profit that way. 0:03:36.900,0:03:42.260 The whole natural horsemanship thing is this[br]grand delusion of love and cooperation and 0:03:42.269,0:03:47.650 respect and trust because at the end of the[br]day you are still forcing the horse, you are 0:03:47.650,0:03:53.650 still moving their feet, you are still manipulating,[br]you are still coercing, you are still the 0:03:53.650,0:03:56.370 one that has the say at the end of the day. 0:03:56.370,0:04:01.730 And they sell it in this little gift wrapped[br]package of love and cooperation and respect 0:04:01.730,0:04:07.150 and trust, and there’s just this total cognitive[br]dissonance with people, that if you apply 0:04:07.150,0:04:13.180 those same terms to your personal human relationships that is not what those words look like. 0:04:13.180,0:04:18.910 It’s based on watching natural herd dynamics,[br]but what people don’t realise is that it’s 0:04:18.910,0:04:26.000 based on natural herd dynamics in survival[br]mode, not in the natural true essence of a 0:04:26.000,0:04:30.440 thriving community of wild horses in their[br]natural state, where resources are abundant, 0:04:30.440,0:04:35.620 and there’s more harmony and cooperation,[br]which we don’t see here in America because 0:04:35.620,0:04:40.919 wild horse herds are under a tremendous amount[br]of stress, due to the fact that the predators 0:04:40.919,0:04:45.820 are gone because we’re using their land[br]to graze sheep and cattle and it’s all a 0:04:45.820,0:04:49.420 mess and quite honestly it all goes back to[br]people’s desire to eat meat. 0:04:49.420,0:04:55.780 But basing natural horsemanship on the natural[br]dynamics of horses the way they are today 0:04:55.780,0:05:00.900 is like basing natural human behaviour on[br]watching a prison yard. 0:05:00.900,0:05:06.300 Emily: So one of the schools that you go to[br]towards the end of your journey through the 0:05:06.300,0:05:10.450 different methodologies of training and something[br]that you flirted with a little bit on and 0:05:10.450,0:05:14.910 off throughout the book before that period[br]was with Alexander Nevzorov. 0:05:14.910,0:05:19.700 Could you talk a little bit about his approach[br]because it seems to be the most outlying of 0:05:19.710,0:05:24.310 all of the different formal trainings with[br]the horse cannon. 0:05:24.310,0:05:31.320 Ren: Basically it’s approaching the horse[br]as an absolute equal and really meaning that. 0:05:31.320,0:05:37.280 I mean, you don’t talk down to them, you don’t[br]anthropomorphize, it’s all very logical, 0:05:37.280,0:05:38.880 very practical. 0:05:38.880,0:05:42.800 Zero equipment is needed or necessary. 0:05:42.800,0:05:46.400 No treats, no coercion, no anything. 0:05:46.410,0:05:50.950 You have nothing but your authentic self to[br]show up with and present to this horse, 0:05:50.950,0:05:55.920 and basically the education of the horse looks[br]very similar to how you would educate a small 0:05:55.930,0:05:58.030 child that does not speak English. 0:05:58.030,0:06:03.840 And so it took a tremendous amount of faith[br]on my part just to believe that maybe this 0:06:03.840,0:06:05.380 is possible. 0:06:05.380,0:06:12.000 And it was that faith that took me through[br]the barriers of realising what in fact was 0:06:12.000,0:06:17.560 possible with these animals and how horrendous[br]it is, what we do to them when they are capable 0:06:17.560,0:06:21.130 of understanding us at such an elevated level. 0:06:21.130,0:06:26.120 Emily: On your book it is very clear that[br]you’ve built your entire identity around 0:06:26.120,0:06:29.009 training, trading, and riding horses. 0:06:29.009,0:06:34.370 So how and why do you finally reach the decision[br]to give up riding? 0:06:34.370,0:06:37.220 Ren: It was not an easy decision. 0:06:37.220,0:06:43.000 It was extremely emotional, I remember the[br]very moment that I sat Brandy down in my office 0:06:43.000,0:06:48.350 and I took her hand and said: ‘I’m really[br]sorry, but I can’t ride anymore’. 0:06:48.350,0:06:55.020 That was our whole life, which meant that[br]our whole future was going to be totally shifted 0:06:55.020,0:06:56.900 because of this decision. 0:06:56.900,0:06:59.500 She wasn’t ready to quit riding and neither[br]was my apprentice. 0:06:59.500,0:07:01.560 My apprentice still rides. 0:07:01.560,0:07:03.520 Nobody in my life. 0:07:03.530,0:07:07.530 I had a huge following in Texas, and everybody[br]thought I had completely gone off the deep end. 0:07:07.600,0:07:12.880 I can explain this all day long,[br]and people can get it in their heads all day 0:07:12.880,0:07:16.160 long (which is what drives me crazy about[br]people needing the science of it) because 0:07:16.160,0:07:22.150 as important of that is, this is an experiential[br]change, and it can only be changed through 0:07:22.150,0:07:28.010 the feeling of the experience of connecting[br]with an animal in this profound way. 0:07:28.010,0:07:33.660 Most people have no idea that the animals[br]they are spending time with are in an absolute 0:07:33.660,0:07:38.780 state of learned helplessness, of conditioning,[br]that doesn’t even allow to experience their 0:07:38.780,0:07:42.320 true nature. What you are experiencing is like this empty 0:07:42.320,0:07:47.080 shell version, or even an ignorant version 0:07:47.080,0:07:48.889 of the animal in front of you. 0:07:48.889,0:07:52.780 That is why a lot of times the animals come[br]out as seemingly unintelligent, because we 0:07:52.780,0:07:54.240 keep them stupid. 0:07:54.640,0:08:01.940 So because of the NHE school, I was experiencing[br]Shai in an entirely different way than I had 0:08:01.940,0:08:06.889 ever experienced a horse before, because the[br]school required me to show up and treat him 0:08:06.889,0:08:08.050 as an equal. 0:08:08.050,0:08:12.860 So that’s what I did and by God if he didn’t[br]show up as one. 0:08:12.860,0:08:19.040 The level of communication sucked, it ruined[br]my life. 0:08:19.040,0:08:24.639 Here’s the thing, once I had experienced[br]it with him we started applying it to our 0:08:24.639,0:08:30.770 other horses and one by one they started healing[br]and changing and becoming totally different 0:08:30.770,0:08:34.520 versions of themselves (when we had know these[br]horses for years). 0:08:34.520,0:08:39.260 We were those people that would have said:[br]‘we have this beautiful relationship blah 0:08:39.260,0:08:41.020 blah blah…’ 0:08:41.300,0:08:43.460 But we didn’t know any of them. 0:08:43.460,0:08:50.860 The very last horse I had in my training paddock—I’ve[br]always had a really hard time actually talking 0:08:50.860,0:08:58.400 to the animals because it felt awkward—I[br]got up there and I sat on his back and I placed 0:08:58.410,0:09:06.900 my hands on his withers and I just asked him:[br]‘Is it OK for me to be up here?’ 0:09:06.900,0:09:11.600 And he just had this really deep sigh and[br]dropped his head. 0:09:11.600,0:09:17.640 I don’t know how to explain this other than[br]it felt like he said ‘yes’ but with total 0:09:17.640,0:09:23.260 resignation, like it wasn’t coming from[br]a good place. 0:09:23.260,0:09:29.870 I knew that feeling, I knew that feeling deeply[br]of saying ‘yes’ when it really, really 0:09:29.870,0:09:31.590 wasn’t what you wanted. 0:09:32.100,0:09:34.980 I just slipped off of him and I was completely[br]done. 0:09:34.980,0:09:41.360 I had trained hundreds of horses, I’m not[br]an idiot, I could go back through that film 0:09:41.360,0:09:47.210 reel of all the horses I trained and remember[br]all the times they said ‘no’, and I manipulated 0:09:47.210,0:09:51.810 them into saying ‘yes’ or loved them enough[br]to get them to say ‘yes’ to me all the time. 0:09:52.300,0:09:57.980 But with Shai, because the school required[br]you to honor every single ‘no’ 100%, if 0:09:57.980,0:10:01.980 he said ‘no’ in any way, all I could do[br]was walk away. 0:10:01.980,0:10:06.540 It wasn’t about manipulating or getting[br]to the ‘yes’, it was about dropping all 0:10:06.540,0:10:12.190 sense of agenda or expectation, and allowing[br]the horse to truly have an equal say in whatever 0:10:12.190,0:10:14.340 developed between the two of you. 0:10:14.340,0:10:15.860 Nobody does that in training. 0:10:15.860,0:10:17.720 That’s not training, that’s relationship. 0:10:18.660,0:10:22.840 You have to almost experience a truly free[br]horse if you’re a trainer to walk away from 0:10:22.840,0:10:28.000 it, otherwise your perception of what horses[br]are and how they behave is really skewed. 0:10:28.000,0:10:32.500 We really don’t know the essence of what[br]love really means, and that’s what this 0:10:32.500,0:10:37.200 work has turned into beyond horse training[br]or NHE or any of that. 0:10:37.200,0:10:44.040 The whole thing we do now, is we’ve essentially[br]learned a method of undomesticating animals 0:10:44.040,0:10:47.950 or people in a domesticated state through[br]this unconditional love and action which is 0:10:47.950,0:10:53.960 extremely difficult, is not woo-woo, it’s[br]very logical, it’s very practical, it works, 0:10:53.960,0:10:57.750 it’s very effective, and you have to be[br]really ready to show up for it because it 0:10:57.750,0:11:02.300 brings up the darkest aspects of you that[br]most people don’t want to face, which is 0:11:02.300,0:11:06.900 why most people like to keep their animals[br]the way they are because that is their source 0:11:06.900,0:11:10.580 of unconditional love that they’re not willing[br]to find within themselves. 0:11:10.580,0:11:15.840 And the way we work with animals here at the[br]sanctuary is it’s a practice center. 0:11:15.840,0:11:21.100 It’s practicing this way of relating in[br]a truly unconditional manner that heals the 0:11:21.100,0:11:25.650 domesticated subject and gives you a chance[br]to heal yourself out of a domesticated state 0:11:25.650,0:11:28.130 that society and conditioning has placed us[br]in. 0:11:28.130,0:11:32.990 So, by liberating the animals, and practicing[br]working within these parameters of keeping 0:11:32.990,0:11:39.000 it honest and keeping it at that level, you[br]grow tremendously as a person and there’s 0:11:39.000,0:11:42.360 not a lot of people signing up for that yet[br]because it’s really hard work. 0:11:42.360,0:11:47.720 Emily: So one of the main objections that[br]I hear from horse owners in response to a 0:11:47.720,0:11:52.140 few of the videos I’ve done on horse ethics,[br]which I read throughout your book as well, 0:11:52.140,0:11:58.200 is this assertion that - they love their horses,[br]and that their horses in turn love to be ridden. 0:11:58.200,0:12:03.620 You know how people say, “My horse even[br]comes up and asks to be ridden, or gets excited 0:12:03.620,0:12:09.170 when I have the saddle,” So, how do you[br]respond when you receive these kind of objections? 0:12:09.170,0:12:14.360 Ren: Well, it depends on if I’m trying to[br]word it in a way that actually reaches people 0:12:14.360,0:12:20.000 or if I just answer off-the-cuff, because[br]it is insanity, it’s absolute insanity, 0:12:20.000,0:12:24.311 and what’s worse about it is that many of[br]the horses that are displaying these behaviors 0:12:24.311,0:12:29.210 that they like to be strapped with the dead[br]body parts of another animal and have this 0:12:29.210,0:12:35.500 metal rod stuck in their mouth, they probably[br]do because their life experience is 0:12:35.500,0:12:40.620 so limited, that that looks like fun in comparison[br]to standing in a stall all day. 0:12:40.620,0:12:46.330 There’s such a disconnect between this use of[br]the word “love,” and what we actually 0:12:46.330,0:12:49.240 do with these animals. 0:12:49.240,0:12:57.160 I know that these people feel love towards[br]their horses, without a doubt, no question, 0:12:57.360,0:13:02.020 but, if it’s the same love that you feel[br]toward your family members - I mean, do you 0:13:02.030,0:13:06.880 place your family members in bondage, micro-manage[br]every aspect of their lives, and then climb 0:13:06.880,0:13:09.280 on them whenever you want and ask them to[br]take you around. 0:13:09.280,0:13:12.790 The answer is ‘no,’ and if you do, I don’t[br]want to be a part of your family. 0:13:12.790,0:13:16.430 But, it’s like, how obvious is that? 0:13:16.430,0:13:19.950 That’s not a loving relationship, and it’s[br]not an equal relationship. 0:13:19.950,0:13:25.970 This is a being you have placed in your control[br]and in your care, and then you call that “love.” 0:13:25.970,0:13:30.880 What that is, is something entirely different. 0:13:30.880,0:13:38.480 I mean, there’s nothing “loving” about[br]using someone for your own personal benefit. 0:13:38.480,0:13:40.850 Love is way bigger than just a feeling. 0:13:40.850,0:13:45.180 That feeling is more like affection, and it’s[br]more attachment-based. 0:13:45.180,0:13:48.060 Emily: Why do you think that this is so difficult[br]for people to break 0:13:48.060,0:13:50.840 with this concept of riding horses? 0:13:50.840,0:13:55.330 Ren: People are deeply attached to being able[br]to use the horse for their sense of power 0:13:55.330,0:13:57.260 - women especially. 0:13:57.260,0:14:01.990 Ninety-five percent of my clientele, the whole[br]time I was in the horse industry, was women, 0:14:01.990,0:14:07.700 ages, probably between 40 and 75 years old,[br]and I cannot even tell you how many times 0:14:07.700,0:14:11.480 I’ve heard the words, “my horses saved[br]my life.” 0:14:11.480,0:14:16.070 It’s such a painful thing to hear, and I[br]don’t argue with people when I hear it. 0:14:16.520,0:14:23.240 But the truth is, is if your emotional connection[br]to another being is where your dependency 0:14:23.250,0:14:29.270 on survival lies, then you’re[br]giving your power away, and women taking the 0:14:29.270,0:14:34.180 power away from the horses is a lot of times[br]how they make it in this world, when the rest 0:14:34.180,0:14:38.100 of their relationships are not necessarily[br]working, or if they don’t feel powerful 0:14:38.100,0:14:42.000 in other areas of their lives, and I saw this[br]again and again and again. 0:14:42.240,0:14:48.240 When I stopped riding, and was still trimming[br]hooves for my clients, so many of them would 0:14:48.250,0:14:52.950 get tears in their eyes because they could[br]see and feel the truth of what I was talking 0:14:52.950,0:14:57.490 about and they knew someone like me would[br]never give up riding if there wasn’t something 0:14:57.490,0:15:01.850 profoundly true about why I did it, because[br]I’m not that person. 0:15:01.850,0:15:07.580 This wasn’t an easy emotional decision for[br]me, it just makes absolute sense. 0:15:07.580,0:15:12.140 But to give that up before they knew what[br]to replace it with would’ve been death 0:15:12.140,0:15:14.180 for them - maybe literally. 0:15:14.180,0:15:21.760 Riding, to many people, is as much a dependency[br]as any other drug that’s keeping them functioning. 0:15:21.760,0:15:27.360 It’s a really, really hard thing to give[br]up if it’s your main source of joy 0:15:27.360,0:15:28.500 and freedom in the world 0:15:28.500,0:15:34.320 Emily: There are many vegans that continue[br]to ride horses - do you find that the objections 0:15:34.320,0:15:43.140 that you receive for giving up riding mirror[br]those that we tend to receive when people 0:15:43.140,0:15:46.500 are resisting shifting to veganism? 0:15:46.510,0:15:51.650 Ren: Many vegans, whether they understand[br]it or know it or not, are still exploiting animals. 0:15:51.650,0:15:58.170 When the focus is on the actual physical harm,[br]rather than the exploitation aspect of this, 0:15:58.170,0:16:00.140 there’s still a disconnect. 0:16:00.140,0:16:04.940 So it’s very similar, the arguments remain[br]the same because people are jumping on this 0:16:04.940,0:16:09.440 moral issue rather than the issue of ‘why[br]are we doing this in the first place 0:16:09.440,0:16:11.140 and is it necessary?’ 0:16:11.140,0:16:15.380 ‘And what am I getting out of it and what[br]are my motivations for continuing it?’ 0:16:17.220,0:16:21.860 “Having underestimated the intelligence[br]level of animals for so long and at such great 0:16:21.860,0:16:26.550 depth, when I was exposed to the truth of[br]what they were really able to understand, 0:16:26.550,0:16:29.370 being surrounded by them left me feeling[br]like a slave owner. 0:16:29.660,0:16:31.580 It’s no wonder we keep them stupid. 0:16:31.580,0:16:35.700 Isn’t that exactly how we were able to control[br]members of our own species for so long? 0:16:35.960,0:16:40.700 One will never be able to understand the intellectual[br]capability of another if they are only willing 0:16:40.700,0:16:43.510 to weigh it against their own understanding[br]of that individual. 0:16:43.510,0:16:47.610 If we believe animals to be stupid, and we[br]keep them under our control, 0:16:47.610,0:16:48.910 they will be stupid. 0:16:48.920,0:16:52.660 Unless we create an environment and a situation[br]where they can advance.” 0:16:52.660,0:16:54.790 I hope you enjoyed hearing from Ren about[br]her journey. 0:16:54.790,0:16:59.820 You can find links below to her ongoing video[br]series on Facebook and YouTube, as well 0:16:59.820,0:17:04.660 as to her book and the New World Sanctuary[br]Foundation to follow and support their work. 0:17:04.660,0:17:09.570 It’s important for all of us—vegans included—to[br]be mindful of our relationships and interactions 0:17:09.570,0:17:12.270 with all beings, human and non-human alike. 0:17:12.270,0:17:15.730 If you liked this video, do give it a thumbs up and share it around to help 0:17:15.730,0:17:20.980 others learn to truly love horses, and subscribe[br]for more vegan content every week. 0:17:20.980,0:17:24.990 To help support Bite Size Vegan’s educational[br]efforts, please see the support links below 0:17:24.990,0:17:26.650 or the link in the sidebar. 0:17:26.650,0:17:30.830 Now go live vegan, learn to love unconditionally,[br]and I’ll see you soon.