WEBVTT 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:05.860 One of the most iconic and time-honored human-animal relationships is that of horse and rider. 00:00:05.860 --> 00:00:10.110 From the noble steeds of battle to a little girl’s first pony, the bond people share 00:00:10.110 --> 00:00:16.330 with their horses seems to border on the profound, and the idea of giving up riding is incomprehensible. 00:00:16.760 --> 00:00:21.860 So what would lead a lifelong trainer, trader, and rider, who lived and breathed horses for 00:00:21.870 --> 00:00:27.350 years, to not only give it all up, but even question concept of domestication itself? 00:00:27.350 --> 00:00:32.300 To look back and realize that what she’d so long considered her love of horses, was 00:00:32.300 --> 00:00:34.620 in reality her love of power. 00:00:39.040 --> 00:00:42.660 Hi it's Emily from Bite Size Vegan and welcome to another vegan nugget. 00:00:42.670 --> 00:00:47.870 Of all of the sensitive topics I’ve covered, from religion to abortion, my videos on horse 00:00:47.870 --> 00:00:51.559 riding ethics have by far sparked the most controversy. 00:00:51.559 --> 00:00:56.070 While I personally have very limited experience with horses, my guest today built her entire 00:00:56.070 --> 00:00:58.950 identity around the training, trading and riding of horses. 00:00:58.950 --> 00:01:04.890 With brutal honesty and admirable self-analysis, Ren Hurst shares her journey in her memoir 00:01:04.890 --> 00:01:09.840 Riding On The Power Of Others, and was kind enough to spare some time to be on the channel. 00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:13.979 She has a lot of powerful insights to share, so let’s get right to it! 00:01:13.979 --> 00:01:18.160 Emily: Ren I want to thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to sit here 00:01:18.160 --> 00:01:19.840 and answer some questions and share your journey. 00:01:20.600 --> 00:01:24.220 Ren: Well thank you Emily, I’m honored to have a chance to talk to you this way 00:01:24.220 --> 00:01:27.619 Emily: So you’ve had a really profound journey with your relationship to horses, through 00:01:27.619 --> 00:01:31.390 a variety of training philosophies and approaches over this period. 00:01:31.390 --> 00:01:36.020 Could you share a little of your initial mindset when you first started working with horses 00:01:36.020 --> 00:01:41.640 informally as a kid, and then how that compared and evolved with your first formal training? 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:45.689 Ren: I got my first horse when I was 12 so it’s right around the time of puberty, my 00:01:45.689 --> 00:01:51.670 home life was a mess, hormones, all kinds of craziness, it was just literally a way 00:01:51.670 --> 00:01:54.579 to deal with all of that at the time. 00:01:54.579 --> 00:01:58.540 And then around 16 I got my first formal training. 00:01:58.540 --> 00:02:05.200 I really didn’t like how my horse was being treated, and yet through this - what I perceived 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:09.239 as violent treatment of her, I was able to do the things that I wanted to do. 00:02:09.239 --> 00:02:14.800 And it was being condoned, pushed and celebrated by people who were very, very respected in 00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:18.420 the field of horsemanship but it was effective and that changed the course of my life - 00:02:18.420 --> 00:02:19.920 being taught violence. 00:02:19.930 --> 00:02:23.210 This was very much the general, traditional type of horsemanship. 00:02:23.210 --> 00:02:27.819 Basically they were teaching her how to lunge which is how to send her around in circles 00:02:27.819 --> 00:02:31.230 (on a line usually), and she was really unruly. 00:02:31.230 --> 00:02:35.330 Their answer to that was to run a stud chain through the halter - the nose of the halter, 00:02:35.330 --> 00:02:38.610 which is very typical, it’s very common practice. 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:43.720 And I remember thinking ‘oh my god they’re really hurting her when they do that’ but 00:02:43.720 --> 00:02:47.460 then they taught me how to do it, and it worked. 00:02:47.470 --> 00:02:53.520 You know that’s the very beginnings of my journey, but that feeling and that teaching 00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:59.140 at a young age - that it’s ok to control and use violence to get what you want and 00:02:59.140 --> 00:03:02.069 what you need from somebody, really affected my life long term. 00:03:02.069 --> 00:03:07.230 Emily: One of the major shifts that you had with your relationship with horses was your 00:03:07.230 --> 00:03:09.129 introduction to what is called natural horsemanship. 00:03:09.129 --> 00:03:15.280 Can you share a little bit about what that means and how that differs from what you were 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:16.500 calling traditional approach? 00:03:16.500 --> 00:03:20.140 Ren: I found natural horsemanship like most people, I thought that ‘oh wow this is the 00:03:20.150 --> 00:03:21.510 greatest thing ever’. 00:03:21.510 --> 00:03:25.610 And looking back on it now it’s a completely different way of seeing it. 00:03:25.610 --> 00:03:30.790 But when it was introduced to me I was already pretty deep in the game, I had already learned 00:03:30.790 --> 00:03:36.730 how to train horses traditionally, I was already buying and selling and making a profit that way. 00:03:36.900 --> 00:03:42.260 The whole natural horsemanship thing is this grand delusion of love and cooperation and 00:03:42.269 --> 00:03:47.650 respect and trust because at the end of the day you are still forcing the horse, you are 00:03:47.650 --> 00:03:53.650 still moving their feet, you are still manipulating, you are still coercing, you are still the 00:03:53.650 --> 00:03:56.370 one that has the say at the end of the day. 00:03:56.370 --> 00:04:01.730 And they sell it in this little gift wrapped package of love and cooperation and respect 00:04:01.730 --> 00:04:07.150 and trust, and there’s just this total cognitive dissonance with people, that if you apply 00:04:07.150 --> 00:04:13.180 those same terms to your personal human relationships that is not what those words look like. 00:04:13.180 --> 00:04:18.910 It’s based on watching natural herd dynamics, but what people don’t realise is that it’s 00:04:18.910 --> 00:04:26.000 based on natural herd dynamics in survival mode, not in the natural true essence of a 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:30.440 thriving community of wild horses in their natural state, where resources are abundant, 00:04:30.440 --> 00:04:35.620 and there’s more harmony and cooperation, which we don’t see here in America because 00:04:35.620 --> 00:04:40.919 wild horse herds are under a tremendous amount of stress, due to the fact that the predators 00:04:40.919 --> 00:04:45.820 are gone because we’re using their land to graze sheep and cattle and it’s all a 00:04:45.820 --> 00:04:49.420 mess and quite honestly it all goes back to people’s desire to eat meat. 00:04:49.420 --> 00:04:55.780 But basing natural horsemanship on the natural dynamics of horses the way they are today 00:04:55.780 --> 00:05:00.900 is like basing natural human behaviour on watching a prison yard. 00:05:00.900 --> 00:05:06.300 Emily: So one of the schools that you go to towards the end of your journey through the 00:05:06.300 --> 00:05:10.450 different methodologies of training and something that you flirted with a little bit on and 00:05:10.450 --> 00:05:14.910 off throughout the book before that period was with Alexander Nevzorov. 00:05:14.910 --> 00:05:19.700 Could you talk a little bit about his approach because it seems to be the most outlying of 00:05:19.710 --> 00:05:24.310 all of the different formal trainings with the horse cannon. 00:05:24.310 --> 00:05:31.320 Ren: Basically it’s approaching the horse as an absolute equal and really meaning that. 00:05:31.320 --> 00:05:37.280 I mean, you don’t talk down to them, you don’t anthropomorphize, it’s all very logical, 00:05:37.280 --> 00:05:38.880 very practical. 00:05:38.880 --> 00:05:42.800 Zero equipment is needed or necessary. 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:46.400 No treats, no coercion, no anything. 00:05:46.410 --> 00:05:50.950 You have nothing but your authentic self to show up with and present to this horse, 00:05:50.950 --> 00:05:55.920 and basically the education of the horse looks very similar to how you would educate a small 00:05:55.930 --> 00:05:58.030 child that does not speak English. 00:05:58.030 --> 00:06:03.840 And so it took a tremendous amount of faith on my part just to believe that maybe this 00:06:03.840 --> 00:06:05.380 is possible. 00:06:05.380 --> 00:06:12.000 And it was that faith that took me through the barriers of realising what in fact was 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:17.560 possible with these animals and how horrendous it is, what we do to them when they are capable 00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:21.130 of understanding us at such an elevated level. 00:06:21.130 --> 00:06:26.120 Emily: On your book it is very clear that you’ve built your entire identity around 00:06:26.120 --> 00:06:29.009 training, trading, and riding horses. 00:06:29.009 --> 00:06:34.370 So how and why do you finally reach the decision to give up riding? 00:06:34.370 --> 00:06:37.220 Ren: It was not an easy decision. 00:06:37.220 --> 00:06:43.000 It was extremely emotional, I remember the very moment that I sat Brandy down in my office 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:48.350 and I took her hand and said: ‘I’m really sorry, but I can’t ride anymore’. 00:06:48.350 --> 00:06:55.020 That was our whole life, which meant that our whole future was going to be totally shifted 00:06:55.020 --> 00:06:56.900 because of this decision. 00:06:56.900 --> 00:06:59.500 She wasn’t ready to quit riding and neither was my apprentice. 00:06:59.500 --> 00:07:01.560 My apprentice still rides. 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:03.520 Nobody in my life. 00:07:03.530 --> 00:07:07.530 I had a huge following in Texas, and everybody thought I had completely gone off the deep end. 00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:12.880 I can explain this all day long, and people can get it in their heads all day 00:07:12.880 --> 00:07:16.160 long (which is what drives me crazy about people needing the science of it) because 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:22.150 as important of that is, this is an experiential change, and it can only be changed through 00:07:22.150 --> 00:07:28.010 the feeling of the experience of connecting with an animal in this profound way. 00:07:28.010 --> 00:07:33.660 Most people have no idea that the animals they are spending time with are in an absolute 00:07:33.660 --> 00:07:38.780 state of learned helplessness, of conditioning, that doesn’t even allow to experience their 00:07:38.780 --> 00:07:42.320 true nature. What you are experiencing is like this empty 00:07:42.320 --> 00:07:47.080 shell version, or even an ignorant version 00:07:47.080 --> 00:07:48.889 of the animal in front of you. 00:07:48.889 --> 00:07:52.780 That is why a lot of times the animals come out as seemingly unintelligent, because we 00:07:52.780 --> 00:07:54.240 keep them stupid. 00:07:54.640 --> 00:08:01.940 So because of the NHE school, I was experiencing Shai in an entirely different way than I had 00:08:01.940 --> 00:08:06.889 ever experienced a horse before, because the school required me to show up and treat him 00:08:06.889 --> 00:08:08.050 as an equal. 00:08:08.050 --> 00:08:12.860 So that’s what I did and by God if he didn’t show up as one. 00:08:12.860 --> 00:08:19.040 The level of communication sucked, it ruined my life. 00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:24.639 Here’s the thing, once I had experienced it with him we started applying it to our 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:30.770 other horses and one by one they started healing and changing and becoming totally different 00:08:30.770 --> 00:08:34.520 versions of themselves (when we had know these horses for years). 00:08:34.520 --> 00:08:39.260 We were those people that would have said: ‘we have this beautiful relationship blah 00:08:39.260 --> 00:08:41.020 blah blah…’ 00:08:41.300 --> 00:08:43.460 But we didn’t know any of them. 00:08:43.460 --> 00:08:50.860 The very last horse I had in my training paddock—I’ve always had a really hard time actually talking 00:08:50.860 --> 00:08:58.400 to the animals because it felt awkward—I got up there and I sat on his back and I placed 00:08:58.410 --> 00:09:06.900 my hands on his withers and I just asked him: ‘Is it OK for me to be up here?’ 00:09:06.900 --> 00:09:11.600 And he just had this really deep sigh and dropped his head. 00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:17.640 I don’t know how to explain this other than it felt like he said ‘yes’ but with total 00:09:17.640 --> 00:09:23.260 resignation, like it wasn’t coming from a good place. 00:09:23.260 --> 00:09:29.870 I knew that feeling, I knew that feeling deeply of saying ‘yes’ when it really, really 00:09:29.870 --> 00:09:31.590 wasn’t what you wanted. 00:09:32.100 --> 00:09:34.980 I just slipped off of him and I was completely done. 00:09:34.980 --> 00:09:41.360 I had trained hundreds of horses, I’m not an idiot, I could go back through that film 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:47.210 reel of all the horses I trained and remember all the times they said ‘no’, and I manipulated 00:09:47.210 --> 00:09:51.810 them into saying ‘yes’ or loved them enough to get them to say ‘yes’ to me all the time. 00:09:52.300 --> 00:09:57.980 But with Shai, because the school required you to honor every single ‘no’ 100%, if 00:09:57.980 --> 00:10:01.980 he said ‘no’ in any way, all I could do was walk away. 00:10:01.980 --> 00:10:06.540 It wasn’t about manipulating or getting to the ‘yes’, it was about dropping all 00:10:06.540 --> 00:10:12.190 sense of agenda or expectation, and allowing the horse to truly have an equal say in whatever 00:10:12.190 --> 00:10:14.340 developed between the two of you. 00:10:14.340 --> 00:10:15.860 Nobody does that in training. 00:10:15.860 --> 00:10:17.720 That’s not training, that’s relationship. 00:10:18.660 --> 00:10:22.840 You have to almost experience a truly free horse if you’re a trainer to walk away from 00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:28.000 it, otherwise your perception of what horses are and how they behave is really skewed. 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:32.500 We really don’t know the essence of what love really means, and that’s what this 00:10:32.500 --> 00:10:37.200 work has turned into beyond horse training or NHE or any of that. 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:44.040 The whole thing we do now, is we’ve essentially learned a method of undomesticating animals 00:10:44.040 --> 00:10:47.950 or people in a domesticated state through this unconditional love and action which is 00:10:47.950 --> 00:10:53.960 extremely difficult, is not woo-woo, it’s very logical, it’s very practical, it works, 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:57.750 it’s very effective, and you have to be really ready to show up for it because it 00:10:57.750 --> 00:11:02.300 brings up the darkest aspects of you that most people don’t want to face, which is 00:11:02.300 --> 00:11:06.900 why most people like to keep their animals the way they are because that is their source 00:11:06.900 --> 00:11:10.580 of unconditional love that they’re not willing to find within themselves. 00:11:10.580 --> 00:11:15.840 And the way we work with animals here at the sanctuary is it’s a practice center. 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:21.100 It’s practicing this way of relating in a truly unconditional manner that heals the 00:11:21.100 --> 00:11:25.650 domesticated subject and gives you a chance to heal yourself out of a domesticated state 00:11:25.650 --> 00:11:28.130 that society and conditioning has placed us in. 00:11:28.130 --> 00:11:32.990 So, by liberating the animals, and practicing working within these parameters of keeping 00:11:32.990 --> 00:11:39.000 it honest and keeping it at that level, you grow tremendously as a person and there’s 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:42.360 not a lot of people signing up for that yet because it’s really hard work. 00:11:42.360 --> 00:11:47.720 Emily: So one of the main objections that I hear from horse owners in response to a 00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:52.140 few of the videos I’ve done on horse ethics, which I read throughout your book as well, 00:11:52.140 --> 00:11:58.200 is this assertion that - they love their horses, and that their horses in turn love to be ridden. 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:03.620 You know how people say, “My horse even comes up and asks to be ridden, or gets excited 00:12:03.620 --> 00:12:09.170 when I have the saddle,” So, how do you respond when you receive these kind of objections? 00:12:09.170 --> 00:12:14.360 Ren: Well, it depends on if I’m trying to word it in a way that actually reaches people 00:12:14.360 --> 00:12:20.000 or if I just answer off-the-cuff, because it is insanity, it’s absolute insanity, 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:24.311 and what’s worse about it is that many of the horses that are displaying these behaviors 00:12:24.311 --> 00:12:29.210 that they like to be strapped with the dead body parts of another animal and have this 00:12:29.210 --> 00:12:35.500 metal rod stuck in their mouth, they probably do because their life experience is 00:12:35.500 --> 00:12:40.620 so limited, that that looks like fun in comparison to standing in a stall all day. 00:12:40.620 --> 00:12:46.330 There’s such a disconnect between this use of the word “love,” and what we actually 00:12:46.330 --> 00:12:49.240 do with these animals. 00:12:49.240 --> 00:12:57.160 I know that these people feel love towards their horses, without a doubt, no question, 00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:02.020 but, if it’s the same love that you feel toward your family members - I mean, do you 00:13:02.030 --> 00:13:06.880 place your family members in bondage, micro-manage every aspect of their lives, and then climb 00:13:06.880 --> 00:13:09.280 on them whenever you want and ask them to take you around. 00:13:09.280 --> 00:13:12.790 The answer is ‘no,’ and if you do, I don’t want to be a part of your family. 00:13:12.790 --> 00:13:16.430 But, it’s like, how obvious is that? 00:13:16.430 --> 00:13:19.950 That’s not a loving relationship, and it’s not an equal relationship. 00:13:19.950 --> 00:13:25.970 This is a being you have placed in your control and in your care, and then you call that “love.” 00:13:25.970 --> 00:13:30.880 What that is, is something entirely different. 00:13:30.880 --> 00:13:38.480 I mean, there’s nothing “loving” about using someone for your own personal benefit. 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:40.850 Love is way bigger than just a feeling. 00:13:40.850 --> 00:13:45.180 That feeling is more like affection, and it’s more attachment-based. 00:13:45.180 --> 00:13:48.060 Emily: Why do you think that this is so difficult for people to break 00:13:48.060 --> 00:13:50.840 with this concept of riding horses? 00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:55.330 Ren: People are deeply attached to being able to use the horse for their sense of power 00:13:55.330 --> 00:13:57.260 - women especially. 00:13:57.260 --> 00:14:01.990 Ninety-five percent of my clientele, the whole time I was in the horse industry, was women, 00:14:01.990 --> 00:14:07.700 ages, probably between 40 and 75 years old, and I cannot even tell you how many times 00:14:07.700 --> 00:14:11.480 I’ve heard the words, “my horses saved my life.” 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:16.070 It’s such a painful thing to hear, and I don’t argue with people when I hear it. 00:14:16.520 --> 00:14:23.240 But the truth is, is if your emotional connection to another being is where your dependency 00:14:23.250 --> 00:14:29.270 on survival lies, then you’re giving your power away, and women taking the 00:14:29.270 --> 00:14:34.180 power away from the horses is a lot of times how they make it in this world, when the rest 00:14:34.180 --> 00:14:38.100 of their relationships are not necessarily working, or if they don’t feel powerful 00:14:38.100 --> 00:14:42.000 in other areas of their lives, and I saw this again and again and again. 00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:48.240 When I stopped riding, and was still trimming hooves for my clients, so many of them would 00:14:48.250 --> 00:14:52.950 get tears in their eyes because they could see and feel the truth of what I was talking 00:14:52.950 --> 00:14:57.490 about and they knew someone like me would never give up riding if there wasn’t something 00:14:57.490 --> 00:15:01.850 profoundly true about why I did it, because I’m not that person. 00:15:01.850 --> 00:15:07.580 This wasn’t an easy emotional decision for me, it just makes absolute sense. 00:15:07.580 --> 00:15:12.140 But to give that up before they knew what to replace it with would’ve been death 00:15:12.140 --> 00:15:14.180 for them - maybe literally. 00:15:14.180 --> 00:15:21.760 Riding, to many people, is as much a dependency as any other drug that’s keeping them functioning. 00:15:21.760 --> 00:15:27.360 It’s a really, really hard thing to give up if it’s your main source of joy 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:28.500 and freedom in the world 00:15:28.500 --> 00:15:34.320 Emily: There are many vegans that continue to ride horses - do you find that the objections 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:43.140 that you receive for giving up riding mirror those that we tend to receive when people 00:15:43.140 --> 00:15:46.500 are resisting shifting to veganism? 00:15:46.510 --> 00:15:51.650 Ren: Many vegans, whether they understand it or know it or not, are still exploiting animals. 00:15:51.650 --> 00:15:58.170 When the focus is on the actual physical harm, rather than the exploitation aspect of this, 00:15:58.170 --> 00:16:00.140 there’s still a disconnect. 00:16:00.140 --> 00:16:04.940 So it’s very similar, the arguments remain the same because people are jumping on this 00:16:04.940 --> 00:16:09.440 moral issue rather than the issue of ‘why are we doing this in the first place 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:11.140 and is it necessary?’ 00:16:11.140 --> 00:16:15.380 ‘And what am I getting out of it and what are my motivations for continuing it?’ 00:16:17.220 --> 00:16:21.860 “Having underestimated the intelligence level of animals for so long and at such great 00:16:21.860 --> 00:16:26.550 depth, when I was exposed to the truth of what they were really able to understand, 00:16:26.550 --> 00:16:29.370 being surrounded by them left me feeling like a slave owner. 00:16:29.660 --> 00:16:31.580 It’s no wonder we keep them stupid. 00:16:31.580 --> 00:16:35.700 Isn’t that exactly how we were able to control members of our own species for so long? 00:16:35.960 --> 00:16:40.700 One will never be able to understand the intellectual capability of another if they are only willing 00:16:40.700 --> 00:16:43.510 to weigh it against their own understanding of that individual. 00:16:43.510 --> 00:16:47.610 If we believe animals to be stupid, and we keep them under our control, 00:16:47.610 --> 00:16:48.910 they will be stupid. 00:16:48.920 --> 00:16:52.660 Unless we create an environment and a situation where they can advance.” 00:16:52.660 --> 00:16:54.790 I hope you enjoyed hearing from Ren about her journey. 00:16:54.790 --> 00:16:59.820 You can find links below to her ongoing video series on Facebook and YouTube, as well 00:16:59.820 --> 00:17:04.660 as to her book and the New World Sanctuary Foundation to follow and support their work. 00:17:04.660 --> 00:17:09.570 It’s important for all of us—vegans included—to be mindful of our relationships and interactions 00:17:09.570 --> 00:17:12.270 with all beings, human and non-human alike. 00:17:12.270 --> 00:17:15.730 If you liked this video, do give it a thumbs up and share it around to help 00:17:15.730 --> 00:17:20.980 others learn to truly love horses, and subscribe for more vegan content every week. 00:17:20.980 --> 00:17:24.990 To help support Bite Size Vegan’s educational efforts, please see the support links below 00:17:24.990 --> 00:17:26.650 or the link in the sidebar. 00:17:26.650 --> 00:17:30.830 Now go live vegan, learn to love unconditionally, and I’ll see you soon.