Interview with Dr. Heather W. Hackman Human Relation & Multicultural Education St. Cloud State University

Text: Interview with Dr. Heather W. Hackman

Human Relations & Multicultural Education

St. Cloud State University

By Dr. J. Q. Adams Educational & Interdisciplinary Studies Western Illinois University

Dr. J. Q. Adams: Good morning we have Dr. Heather Hackman here

and I'd like you to introduce yourself

and share with us some a little bit

about your background, and what you do.

Dr. Heather Hackman: Great! Well first of all

I just want to thank you for having me.

It's a privilege to be here and I have been

following the work that you and Janice

have done for a long time so.

I'm excited to have this conversation.

I teach up at St. Cloud State

in the College of Education, in the

Department of Human Relations and Multicultural,

and I think similar to Illinois.

Minnesota has a Human Relations

Multicultural Educational requirement

for all Teacher-Ed folks

and so, that's the bulk of my teaching load.

I've been there 11 years

and I only meant to stay a couple,

but then you get stuck right... in a good way

stuck in a good way.

And so what I do is, student's from all, all Teacher-Ed

Prep programs comes through that class

and then they go back out to their

Special Ed, Phy Ed, Tech Ed, L-Ed programs.

And so, that again has been the bulk

of my teaching for the least 11 years.

It's a very exciting field and exciting set of content.

It's incredibly frustrating to try and teach

all of that in one semester.

But as time has gone on just in my career

at St. Cloud State.

It's clear that it becomes more, more, and more necessary .

Which is actually what led me to

also do quite a bit of training in schools.

I think I mentioned to you

I do about forty trainings a year.

Primarily focusing on initially on

Diversity verses Cultural Competency

verses Social Justice Education and what the differences

are their all valuable approaches.

But their definitely not the same

and from that, then moving into

how we engage in anti-racist pedagogy.

How we address issues of racism

and white privilege in our schools.

How teachers, staff, and family and all support members

in a school environment can really learn

to address that in an ongoing way.

So, I would say the bulk of my work today

is an even split if you will

between teaching and working with pre-service

and in-service students

and then, time in schools, working with buildings

or whole districts and getting them

to move a little bit around issues

of racism and white privilege.

Adams: Where in the era of Obama

and there are many people who feel, of course,

that race is no longer a major issue.

Hackman: Yeah!

Adams: Can you kind of deconstruct that for us

and talk to us about why your work

now is perhaps even more important

then before Obama?

Hackman: Yeah... yeah you know I think

it's an interesting conversation about the

post-racial environment with Obama.

And my memory is, and correct me if I'm wrong,

Is that once he won the Iowa Caucuses

the amount of anti- or the amount of racist sentiment

directed toward him across the country was pretty profound.

I mean I kept reading in... in small side columns in newspapers

or hearing small stories in the news about effigies

hung from trees on college campuses.

Or effigies of him burned.

Anti-racist sentiment appearing on the dorm

residential hall doors

of students of color etc., etc..

And so, I think it would be interesting

if it was a post racial era.

But in point of fact, what I think it has done

is really raise to the four, the explicit nature

of race in the United States.

And the depth and breathe of the challenges

that this society has around racial justice,

and where it's a, it's a promise yet to be fulfilled.

Were not there yet, and... and the election

of one individual is certainly a step

so I don't mean to dismiss that at all.

I definitely saw the mall

on a very cold day in January

on his inauguration filled with people.

White folks who've been strong allies,

and folks of color from varies

communities of color, so deeply moved

because this was such a monumental day.

A day that many of them said,

I'd never thought I'd see this in my life time.

Adams: I was one of them.

Hackman: Yeah! So, both are true right?

Both are true, it was amazing, amazing moment.

And yet, that single moment,

or that single election,

or that single individual is not enough

to UN-weave the fabric of racism,

and racial injustice in the United States.

It's a step for sure, and it certainly

given us cause for conversation, just with the phrase

"Post-racial in the United States".

So that's been fabulous, and yet

it's not were we need to go

the way that translate into schools.

Is like, you know, on the one hand

many students of color have for generations

sat in US Public P12's,

and not seen themselves in the curriculum.

And so now here's an opportunity

to... for at least one community of color

to say yeah here I am... finally here I am.

And other communities of color can in similar ways say,

yes maybe some different things are possible

in the United States.

So on the one hand, it does change

the landscape of public schools just a little bit,

but on the other hand, our public school curriculum,

our teacher- ed structure, and the structure of

US education structure as a whole.

Has not fundamentally changed

with the election of President Obama.

Adams: Right!

Hackman: And so, that's the issue!

That's the issue that we need to get to.

Is what is the nature of this core structure,

and if were really committed to ending racism,

and challenging white privilege

in the United States.

Then we have to get very serious

about conversations about that structure.

So while curriculum changes are important,

and really valuable, and while the example

of President Obama is such a wonderful example

particularly for a little pee-wees, you know,

they see something very different in their life

this would have been normal.

So while that's so true, and powerful in our schools.

It is also true that we have to address

root causes, and the root structure

of racial inequality in our public schools,

and we haven't done that.

Adams: In your intro you... you differentiated

between a number of delivery systems.

Diversity Approaches, Cultural Competency,

and then your more Anti-racist way.

Hackman: Yeah!

Adams: Can you talk about what differs

between each of those, and why your work,

you think, maybe more salient then the others?

Hackman: Yeah! It's actually kind of the typical

intro lecture that I give. Both in my

Teacher-Ed classes, and often times

when I go into schools.

And so diversity is really fundamentally about

looking at appreciation, awareness

of difference, and that's a good thing.

So I'm not... I'm not dissing on that at all.

It's an very important component

to learning how to live in an, in an, incredibly

diverse along many different aspects in this society.

And so appreciation and awareness

of difference is vital...

it's really vital to our society.

And yet, it's problematic for a couple with reasons

Number one is that it doesn't ever look

at issues of power.

There's no conversation of power

in a conversation about awareness

and appreciation of difference.

And... and so we don't have a race base

achievement gap in our schools

because I don't appreciate you

or you don't appreciate me.

We have a race base achievement gap

in schools because of power and structures.

And so while diversity education,

and diversity programing,

and taking in diversity initiatives in our schools

are incredibly useful for helping us broaden

our... our spectrum of awareness, and understanding.

They don't address the issues of power.

The second issue around diversity education.

Is it's typically used as euphemism for race issues.

And so I encounter a lot of superintendents

or a lot of principles, or teachers

majority white folks.

Who have a hard time using the word race.

Because their afraid that if they

even use the word race

their going to be called racist.

So they use diversity instead

cause it's a... fluffier term it's easy

it just rolls off the tongue... diversity.

And so they like that... they like that.

And so it's often euphemistically used as code for race.

But in point in fact, a true diversity agenda

would really look at racial diversity,

gender diversity, class diversity, disability oppression.

All the social identities that we have in the United States.

It would really address that

And so, and so diversity work is important,

but there are some problematic aspects

that haven't manifest in our schools.

Then you've got Cultural Competency.

Which is fundamentally about

developing a set of skills, and tools,

and again awareness, for me to reach across

cultural lines for me to understand

linguistic differences, cultural differences,

difference in values and beliefs.

And again that could not be more important

at this point in time.

I mean I just saw on CNN this morning

that one of the results from the most recent census was

that the Chicano Latino population

makes up over 50 million people in the US.

That's 1/6 of the US population.

So if I, as a white educator, don't learn and understand

kind of the nuances of language.

If I don't understand the nuances of culture,

and values, and beliefs I'm in some big trouble

in my ability to server students.

So there's, I would never argue that that's important.

The problem is cultural competency often means

on the ground, in schools, on the ground.

It often means that I as a white teacher

learn about that Latino students culture

so I can better help them be more like me.

And so, it's a very subtle... there's a subtle

dynamic of assimilation-ism in cultural

competency conversations.

Because they don't get down to...

again the issue of power.

And so while we have a multicultural society

there are certain identity groups

that also within their cultural identity

have access to structural power.

There are certain groups that don't.

That are continually marginalized.

So I don't get to talk about my cultural identity

as if it exist in a vacuum divorce from power,

and so what often happens again is white teachers

learn all these cultural tools

so that we can help those students

do better on our test.

So we can help them fit better in [hand jester] "our schools."

But it begs a question [hand jester] "who's the our there?."

Of course, it's my frame work, my beliefs, my values.

And so Cultural Competency work

is incredibly important, but again

the issue of power is lost.

So a social justice framework

is all about power and privilege.

Social justice ask questions about access to resources.

It ask who's got what and why?

It demands that we look rigorously

at our history, and say okay

what's led us to this moment?

Were not ahistorical beings although US-rs tend

to have a pretty bad sense of our history.

I've traveled to Europe a couple times

and most European taxi drivers

understand US history and politics

a little bit better then most US-rs do.

Adams: Sadly, but true... sadly, but true!

Hackman: Very interesting, very interesting dynamic!

So a social justice framework

demands a sense of history,

and a sense of understanding

how we got to this moment.

It demands critical thinking.

Which is completely different then just thinking.

Waking up in the morning and saying

I want cereal for breakfast.

Is not critical thinking it's just a thought.

But critical thinking is composed

of three primary components.

It means that I look at issues from multiple

non dominant retrospectives.

Multiple non dominant perspectives.

So the example I always give in class is

that when I was in third grade

I grew up in Vegas.

When I was in third grade Mrs. Schneider

was my homeroom teacher,

and when she talked about kind of,

and were in the West, and when she talked

about the West she called it Westward Expansion.

So that should give you a tip right there right!

Adams: Um Hum!

Hackman: Kind of the school house rock

elbow room conversation.

And she said, you know, they needed more room.

I don't know if she sounded like that

she was a heavy smoker,

there's a good chance that she did.

You know... lots of coffee, lots of cigarettes

And she said they got in their wagons, and they headed west,

and it was cold nights all kinds of survival issues,

and there were a few people there

bam, bam, get them out of the way....

then they got to the ocean

and stuck a flag in, and was like...WOW!!!

And I remember sitting there as a third grader thinking.

That is the most amazing story I have ever heard.

Like what an adventure camping, you know, it was just great!

What she failed to mention

was that there were already a minimum

of 10 million people just on this continent a minimum.

There's 500 plus nation bands and tribes

recognized in North America as a whole.

And so she just left that out... she just left it out.

I don't even know her motivations for doing it.

I don't know if she didn't have the information.

I don't know if she was just to scared.

I don't know if she was just

teaching by the book and sick of teaching.

I don't know what the deal was, but she left it out.

And I don't think had she put it in there

that as a third grader I would have said.

Mrs. Schneider that sounds more like

colonization then westward expansion,

you know, I don't think I would have done that.

But I think what I would have said is what all

third graders probably would have said.

Is raised my little hand, and said,

you know, where did all the people go?

So if there's all those people,

where did they all go? Like what happened?

Now she's faced with the difficult

proposition of talking about genocide

or talking about well, you know, there's only

the US population now is only

two percent indigenous.

She's left with a really hard conversation in her mind.

But it's honest conversation...

and so critical thinking involves looking at issues

from multiple non dominant perspectives.

Asking questions about power and privilege.

It's endemic to a social justice framework

to ask questions about power and privilege.

And rigorous self reflection, were I say,

how do I actually know what I know.

And so, a social justice framework

get's to issues of racism.

Because were looking at multiple perspectives

and asking questions about power

and fundamentally challenging,

and consistently challenging my assumptions

and what I think, I know, about these issues.

It demands that we talk about oppression...

yes... and therefore liberation.

So, if were going to identify what racism is, we have to talk about,

what an anti-racist society looks like.

What can this be with racial liberation

what would it look like?

What would it feel like?

Most white students say um-hum.

Which is really the honest answer... I don't know, I don't know!

But many students of color have an idea.

Just like many people who identify

and gender present as women have a sense of,

what would it be like if I could walk down the street

and not worry about sexual assault.

You know one third of all women in the US

are going to be sexually assaulted

in their life-time.

And so, what would that be like, and there's... it's an farian idea.

The oppressed will liberate the oppressors.

Because the oppressed, understand the nature of oppression,

but they have a sense of who they really are too,

and what it could be like.

But the oppressor only has the oppressive dynamic

that's the only thing they ever know.

And so a social justice framework

looks at critical thinking,

it looks at issues of power and privilege,

and in terms of issues of race, which is what I spend

much of my time consulting on.

It ask questions not just how racism

targets folks of color, but also asks

how white people benefit.

How does this system work as a whole.

Only, you know, not so we can study

that and feel depressed.

But so that we can finally get to a place of,

how do we create a racially just society,

or gender liberated society etc.

Adams: You know you mentioned

the importance of understanding history.

I think that's really one of the key points.

We... we do not do a good job

of helping young people understand history.

Because if you go back to those framers,

and you look at the inconsistencies

in their messages... there's some pretty brilliant people.

They had some good noble ideas,

but their practice, was much different then their ideology.

Especially in terms of obviously, the slave question.

The whole question of identity

when it comes to people

who didn't look like them.

Be it indigenous people, or be it Africans,

and then women, obviously, once again

were talking about creating a republic

democratic ideals, and so forth,

about half your population doesn't have the franchise.

So, it's... it's helping students develop

that understanding of what was in their minds,

you know, how would a Wachee know why

with these ideals, and then this application

which becomes our constitution,

our bill of rights, you know, the beginnings,

and the foundations of this country.

So, how do you do that?

How are you introducing that history

to your students in a way that's

palatable to them, and doesn't chase them out of the room

that makes them want to come back and be engaged?

Hackman: Yeah... that's a great question.

To be honest because I think

there's a particular flavor of history that's taught,

and so that flavor of history

is not just framed as information.

It's framed as the American experience.

The defining framework for how you understand

your existence in this society.

So, to challenge the history, begins to challenge,

and often they respond unconsciously,

but it begins to challenge their identity

as an American, and what does that mean.

And so I actually start by introducing

the conversation about what are your values?

And so, I go to the board,

and I drawl this really goofy thing

that looks like broccoli, but artistic license right,

and so you got a... it's supposed to be a tree

you've got branches

you've got the trunk

you've got the roots.

I have them do a little values clarification of,

what are some of the things

you value, but if it storm came through

and blew the branches off no big deal.

And they usually put stuff like... stuff

big car, fast car that kind of stuff.

Then on the trunk they put things like

education, health, and then at the bottom

they put things like family

or values that they hold

like compassion, justice, faith, honesty,

integrity those kinds of things.

And so then we talk about,

so we hold those, throughout the course of the semester,

and then we introduce history, and ask

kind of how does this version of history,

support or not your core values?

Then how does this understanding of history

help you honor your core values.

So, what we find is that

truth wins out in many ways.

Truth will kind of prevail

when it's set in the context

not of, macro social values, but who they

really are as human beings.

Who they really are as, no I believe in integrity

it's one of my most important things.

Well based on that, then we should have an honest

analyst of history, simply

so that we don't repeat it... right!

Adams: Um-hum absolutely!

Hackman: We really don't want to make

that mistake again.

And you've got them, in a sense,

like yeah well, I guess you're right.

And so then I make them read

Howard Zinn - A Peoples History of the United States

which freaks them out right

cause it's like a 650 page book or something.

And so I slice it up a little bit

to make it more palatable as you said,

cause it's totaling overwhelming

for many undergrads who are taking

many other classes.

Then we start to look at history

from the framework, not of those in power,

but those who've been disenfranchised.

We start to ask some questions

about what was in the minds of folks.

Like how do you establish colonies,

and later a larger society

based on the principles

democracy, and freedom, and engage

in the institution of slavery and genocide.

Like how does that work.

The primary way is they created race.

They construct the idea of race

so that you can hold both things as true.

Is that this is for people,

but unfortunately, people of color aren't people.

So were still okay, you know,

or women aren't fully human either

so were still okay.

Adams:Those small brains you have.

Hackman: Right! Yes, I know, I know it's really a problem.

Adams: It's all about cranium size [hand jester].

Hackman: It is... it is exactly!

And so there's ways that we construct justifications

to hold those two ideals at the same time.

Those constructions are alive and well today.

Adams: Once again, very misunderstood

we don't often see the connection

of how we got here from there.

I think that's the bridge that's necessary

for that critical consciousness to come into being.

One needs to know about those cranium studies.

One needs to know how standardized test

gets turned around in a way

that it begins to marginalize people.

Hackman: Yeah

Adams: One needs to understand, who and what

the Dillingham Commission did.

When you speak those truths to most

of our audiences, whether their undergrads or grads

they have know idea of what your talking about at all.

Hackman: Yeah.

Adams: That have not been part of their experience

in terms of understanding America.

Hackman: So what do you do for them in that moment?

How do you bridge potential resistance

or just shock, on someone in, like your experience?

Adams: I find shock is good! [laughter]

Actually a little cognitive dissonance

opens up the pathways.

What I do is have them create their own awe has.

So... so rather then, you know, my telling them this,

you know, I send them on an exploration for it, you know,

So read about Agassi,

read about Morton, read about these characters,

and then come and talk to me about

what you think this means.

Let's take a look at the Antibon Period, you know, in

let's explorer what was being preached in the pulpits.

Especially in the South.

Let's take a look at this version of Christianity

verses your own version of Christianity,

and suddenly, you know, those uh-huhs has happen...

it's like wow, I didn't know that this is what they were,

you know, saying from the pulpit .

Or I didn't know this was what modern science

was saying about, you know, issues of race.

and then the uh-huhs happen.

Hackman Yeah.

Adams: And once you create the uh-huhs,

then that's fertile ground for, you know,

for really doing that kind of work

that I think we both enjoy.

Hackman: Yeah!

I think two other questions that go with that well.

Are asking them, once they kind of have those moments

of cognitive dissonance, why do you think

you didn't know this?

What do you think happened there?

Your teachers were pretty smart people

what do you think happened?

with that history book, that said Rosa was just tired.

Were do you think that came from?

And then the critical question, I think,

is to say, and what will you do about this?

So what are you going to do in your own pedagogy,

when you get in a classroom

your the third grade teacher,

and that unit comes up, you know,

are you going to say, they needed more room,

or are you actually going to do something different.

And so it's the... that moment of dissonance

you can't go very far if they don't have it,

you know, or if I don't have it.

I won't get very far in my own learning.

But then the structural or power question

of why didn't you know?

It didn't just happen that way,

and what will you do about it now?

I think for a teacher-ed students it's critical.

Adams: Absolutely!

In that reflective piece that you referred to

sometimes I think that, perhaps it is the most important thing.

If we just get them to reflect,

you know, to really examine their actions

examine again, their own core values, and so forth,

and then how that relates to the students that their teaching,

and the world were preparing them for.

But once again... how do you get them

to make time to do that?

Given all the things that their juggling,

you know, as undergrads, or as practitioners,

you know, how do you get them to see

the value of reflection?

Hackman: Yeah, yeah it's yeah, it's

I think the action piece is what helps with that.

I think they see that, talking about oppression

doesn't mean just depression.

It's like... awe the world is horrible, you know,

and then have a good semester, and then your done,

you know, it can't be that

it has to be more than that.

And so, there's a sense of relief in thinking,

okay so now I understand this

and there's something I can do about it.

And so, that action [hand jester], you know, hope, and action together

are a really powerful combination.

Hope without action is, you know, kind of... stuck

it loses it's oomph, but action without any sense of hope

often leads to cynicism, and despair and so there has to be

that combination of oh... I can think of

a better way for this to go,

and I can do it to.

Adams: So, I'm interested your approaches

when your working with school districts.

Are you forced sometimes into bandage situations?

Or do you only take those school districts

who are willing to, [hand jester] roll their sleeves up,

and really be engaged?

Hackman: Um... I think it's a broad spectrum

actually it's a broad spectrum,

and I think in... in bandage moments

it's a moment of opportunity and so

you have to start [hand jester] a little farther back.

And so I often start with the

Diversity, Cultural Competency, Social Justice conversation,

and ask them to kind of figure out

as a school, or a district, what is it that you really want to do?

And you can do it just be honest about it,

and understand that you can have

food festivals all you want

for cultural competency, and those are great.

Everyone will be very full,

and happy that they ate all that good stuff.

But there will still be racism in your school

so you just need to understand that.

That while their milling down the tacos

there also going to be with a full mouth [mouth jester]

saying the thing their going to say, you know,

and so get that, just get that.

And just to be honest about it,

and so many schools, you know, with that intro conversation

do locate themselves, and then begin the process

of moving along, and moving along.

I don't think there's a linear development

between the three, but I think in terms of

risk assessment with the community actually.

Minnesota is a largely white state,

and so the risk assessment of jumping

right to an anti-racist framework

in a rural white school district

that's a pretty risky thing to do.

So, they actually do say let's begin here,

and we want to get to this.

But we've got to bring

our community along as well.

And so in some bandage situations, I start there.

But in other situations where schools

are districts, or buildings, are really

ready to go, then I begin the conversation

of race, racism with a conversation of race.

What is, what is race?

And I love that video series

Race the Power of An Illusion.

I strongly recommend it to anybody

in Teacher-Ed absolutely use that.

We talk about what's race?

Because we've been socialized

as a macro-society to not really question

that, but just to assume that it is something.

But it's not it's completely made up, totally made up.

And... I think it was Goebbels or Himmler who said

"If you say a lie enough times people will believe it."

And that's the truth with race in this society.

If you make race seem real... for long enough

which we've been doing for a few hundred years.

Then we get to the place

were we are right now

were we essentialize certain qualities, based on skin color.

Adams: Yes.

Hackman: The tricky thing about race

is you get on one plane

and you fly eight, ten, twelve hours

and you get off somewhere else,

and skin color may or may not have

any salience whatsoever.

And so I start with this construction of race

because it speaks to, why was it created?

How do you explain the decadence

between the ideals and the actions

where does that come from?

And in the process of doing that

many most of the students in my classes or white.

Most of the teachers I deal with in schools or white.

They don't see themselves as racialized beings.

Like white people think about race as all those folks.

But the truth is white had to be created as well.

So, you know, Europeans everyday

Europeans didn't get on their boats, and say, [hand jester]

come on let's go and be white.

They didn't say that they came as

Germans and French, Norwegians, and Swedes

and whatever they got going on.

And they get here, and the British power structure

began to consolidate, consolidate,

and saw that through class allegiance

these white Europeans were actually

chilling with these folks.

Like you can't have that no,no,no,no,no,!

Because you vastly out number me.

You vastly out number me.

I can't divide along class any more as we did in England

because it's not quite working here.

So what were going to do

is create white, and were going to create race

in the mid seventeenth century.

Right around seventeen hundred in Virginia

the Maryland documents,

you actually start to see white codified.

And so I'll let you live in this colony if you're white.

Or I'll let you live in this state,

or I'll let you have this job.

You can do this thing if you start

to swear allegiance to whiteness,

and what that meant is, stop speaking German

stop speaking Swedish, stop speaking French, and get all white! [hand jester]

So, just get white will ya!

And it didn't happen easily cause these folks,

culture has such powerful meaning.

Like I'm not going to get white!

And yet, I've got five kids to feed... and so, alright maybe.

So you can look at Chicago,

in the meat packing factories in Chicago,

and the Polish population in Chicago,

and I'm sorry you can't speak your language,

you can't act the way you are,

you can't eat the food, you got to get white.

And Henry Ford, and his plants in Detroit

had classes were he taught

European immigrants to assimilate

to a white dominant standard in the US.

Which was about speaking US standard dialect.

Which was about dressing a certain way.

Eating certain foods, engaging in certain moods

of behavior with each other.

Forming communities in very particular ways.

He made his employees take classes on that

so that they would assimilate.

And so, what happened is... I, you know,

these kind of Euro, many European folks

coming over here had capitol "C" culture in tack,

and they were told, [hand jester] give up "C" for "W."

and if you get "W" then you'll have

some of these benefits and privileges.

But over a few generations [hand jester]

"W" turns into "A"... the American dream!

Because I got take job, and then I got to go to college,

and then I got to pay that GI Bill house,

and I got to do all that stuff.

And so my [hand jester] "W" is an "A,"

and what it means to be an American is [hand jester] White!

Adams: Yes.

Hackman: But I don't know that

I was never taught that

I was just taught Americans is about freedom.

But slowly over time that structure gets in place.

So I use the construction of race

not to help people see the fallacies of essentializing

certain characteristics that students of color.

But also to help them see the fallacy

of essentializing certain things to whiteness.

That white is inherently superior... it's like No!

It's a game just like everything else.

So, we move to a... once we get race

then we move racism, then we talk about

the construction of white privilege and white supremacy.

And how if your going to look at

racial justice as a whole in the US.

You have to look at how racism targets folks of color.

But you must look at white privilege,

and white supremacy too.

Cause it takes a lot of work

to be racist... right?

Adams: Um hum.

Hackman: It's hard work! And so,

Brown verses Board of Education

May 17, 1954 the Supreme Court said:

"Desegregate these schools."

The macro power structure of whiteness said:

Oh... no, no, no, no, no..

And so found a way to fly under the radar

of a Supreme Court decision,

and still in 2005, Jonathan Kozol's book

"The Shame of the Nation" showed us that

the racial segregation levels in US public schools in 2005 were equal to 1968.

So, how do you do that, and not get sued... right!

And so what we find is it takes an enormous amount

of tricky work to maintain systems

of racism and it begs the question why?

And the reason why is because white people benefit.

I benefit from a system pf privilege.

I benefit from an ideology of supremacy

that everywhere I go tells me I'm superior.

And so that's... and that's last... right

you can imagine why I have to put that last.

But that's last, the last part of the conversation

when we then begin to drill down

at curriculum, policies, hiring practices

really look at what happening in that district.

Not only the ways that it marginalize people of color,

but the ways that it serves white people, inordinately, you know,

in disproportion, serves white people.

And so that's... that is not a lovely conversation.

Their not like... WOW I'm so glad

I came to this workshop!

Adams: Right, right!

Hackman: That's not one that they thought that they signed up for.

And yet, if we don't fundamentally address

both sides of this, we will never

get to racial equality in our schools... never.

Adams: Yeah... very nicely done.

What I'd like to do... to help them see that what was white in 1790,

is not what we think white is in 2011.

Who was American in the 18th, 19th century.

Is not who American is now.

Many of the groups that they come from

would not have been considered white

or American, and their just stunned

their actually stunned by that, you know,

so helping them process that, and see

see... see that through a deconstruction

is very powerful for them.

And then they begin to understand

oh this has been a struggle

for identity throughout the history

of this country, and it still is.

So, you know, that part of it

is very, very important as well.

Mort people don't understand

that up until relative recent times.

The only way you can become nationalized

as a citizen is if you are white.

Hackman: Yeah.

Adams: And so defining white

was always essential as you know.

Yeah, so that's a... that's a big one that's a tough one.

The denial that you initially get from those conversations

I find to be palatable, you know,

so strategies for getting people

to break through the denial.

Hackman: Yeah!

Adams: Do you have any good ones?

Hackan: I... you know, one of the things

I constantly say in teaching

and training around issues of race.

As a white person to other white people is

we just don't even have time for guilt and shame.

Now I know that every time

this topic has come up

in the past for you,

you've probably been encouraged

to feel guilt and shame.

Or subtlety directed towards there

or maybe just felt it cause

you didn't know what else to do.

And so what I do is I actually have some

some curricular pieces that I use

to help them understand that quilt and shame

is actually a tool of the dominant structure.

Because when you're guilty and shameful

you just don't have a lot of energy to move.

And so I'm very clear,

and I have to say it again, and again to white students.

No time for guilt and shame.

Like if racism and whiteness

is like a house on fire

it doesn't do anybody any good

to stand there and say

I feel so bad about that house burning down.

I'm so guilty about that house burning down.

I've read books about the house burning down.

I saw an important Oprah episode

about the house burning down.

Adams: [laughter]

Hackman: You know, like while you're

lamenting and feeling guilty

the house is burning down.

And so I get it, I totally get it.

And so I usually look at my watch and say:

"I'll give you 30 seconds to feel horrible...GO!"

You know, and then I... beep, beep, you're DONE!

Because what do we need to do

we need to move to action.

And also there isn't a little white pee-wee

born in the United States who says:

Yeah cut the cord, and clean me up,

and I can't wait to be racist.

Like it's a socialized process.

It's something we socialize people into,

and we know that because when we look at really young ones.

Thankfully we can video tape this,

and you get really clear evidence of it.

Of course they notice a difference in skin color.

They can make a differentiation among melanin.

But there's no assigned meaning to it.

So, they don't actually care, it's a noticing, but it's not a care.

Then at different age levels depending on their exposure.

You can see when suddenly it matters.

Suddenly it matters, and I can't play with you or I can't play with you,

or I can't hang out with you,

and you don't live in my neighborhood

and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And so the signing of that meeting happens,

but those children didn't ask for that to happen.

And so another piece that I use to address that is resistance.

Is to say, I know, that whatever you put

at the bottom of your value tree

is really powerful stuff.

I'm willing to bet that white supremacy,

and racism are not there.

And so what I know about you, is that you're good people

and what I know about you, you've been miseducation,

and led astray, from your core values.

So my invitation to you

is to come back to your core values.

Let who you say you are and want to be in the world,

match up with who you actually are.

Because coming into focus like that as a white person

is a profound experience morally,

ethically, spiritually, intellectually it's an amazing moment.

But this system of whiteness

in order to get you to be complicit.

The system of racism, in order to get you to be complicit,

has moved you so far away

through miseducation, and bad socialization

that it has harmed you, it has harmed you

and so it's time to come home to your core values.

Adams: That's...that's nice, I pick on the Christians a lot.

Hackman: [laughter]

Adams: Well, cause their so plentiful for one.

Hackman: There are quite a few

in the United States... sure yeah!

Adams: But basically, once again, the very foundation

of being a Christian is just what you were talking about

that you have these strong set of core values.

And so then what I want to do

is to take them back to seventeen hundreds.

Hackman: Yeah.

Adams: Okay, and so, let's try to understand

how you can be Christian, and own slaves?

Okay, then once we establish that, let's understand

how these Quakers, become conscious, of the fact that,

you know, I don't think I can get to heaven owning slaves.

And! Not only can I get there... okay... I must act.

I can't just say I don't like this stuff.

But I've got to put those beliefs now in action.

What would that take during those time periods,

you know, entire eighteenth century

almost the entire nineteenth century,

you know, and stuff, and these people are saying

are railing against this sin.

Hackman: Yeah.

Adams: And so then we kind of, [hand jester] you know,

once again we got to look at Christianity.

What does that mean then to have

this faith, this belief, that I believe in so powerfully

act on behalf of this institution of slavery,

and boy that's fun.

Hackman: Yeah.

Adams: That's a real come to Jesus for a lot of them... okay.

And... and that's what we have to do.

And of course, I don't just pick on the Christians

anybody else who's there

will find something for them too.

[laughter]

Adams:But we have a lot of Christians,

and they haven't had to ask that question.

They haven't had to have that conversation.

There is some real interesting new material

out that looks at the role of religion and slavery.

There's one scene in particular, in which,

the Christians actually met above an auction block.

And so you have the cells, in which,

the slaves were being held.

Their upstairs praying, having service,

and they can hear the wales

of the chattel beneath them.

How do you reconcile? How is that possible?

And... and so we have to also see

along with the political piece

how that religious piece works.

Hackman: Yeah.

Adams: As we alluded to earlier.

How the science works to justify that

because in order to create that thing called race

we needed all those powerful structures

working cohesively together, to... to create the amnesia.

Hackman: Right.

One of the things to... to tag onto that is.

I try to make a distinction between

christian hegemony, and the value set humans feel.

Because there are a lot of Christians in my class.

St. Cloud State is in central Minnesota.

So there's a lot of white students

who also happen to identify as Christian.

And that first approach is like, woe! [hand jester]

Now your not suppose assail my religion.

I'm like, I'm not actually, what I'm talking about is a

power structure of christian hegemony in the US.

I talk about how christian hegemony

it's an interesting kind of threesome here.

With class supremacy and white supremacy,

and thee way that those three work together

to constantly offset each other.

And so when you try to press on one

then you get the other two squeezing in there.

It's, it's remarkable, remarkable kind of pairing.

Adams: Good joojoo!

Hackman: Yeah! It's remarkable way,

like if it wasn't so completely devastating

to so many, you know, tens of millions of people.

What you could look at and say,

that's a pretty elegant design, of the way

the three of them interact.

And so, you can't talk about race in the US,

without talking about the structure

of christian hegemony, you just can't do it.

Or class it's very difficult to do that.

Adams: Yeah and together boy what do they spawn

and the offshoots of it, of course,

around the rest of the planet to,

because the whole genetics, eugenics piece, oh my goodness.

We see the awesome manifestation of it, in Hitlers Germany.

Hackman: Yes, absolutely.

Adams: So, if you want to play those kind of games

let's see how then that plays out... okay.

Because here's the width and breathe... and that's sad.

Hackman: Yeah!

Adams: Incredibly, incredibly sad.

But when you play those games

of creating the other, then that's the by-product.

The by-product is, I can take 60 million people

from your Continent, take them on this aweful passage,

we can lose 20, 30, percent of them,

and it's just a business lost.

It's not really lives being lost.

It's just property, okay, so that takes

powerful forces, powerful, powerful forces,.

Let's talk about empathy.

Hackman: Alright!

Adams: Yeah! I've given end to empathy.

It seems to me... it's that cohesive fabric

that we have that's part of being human,

that we all have, we all posses it.

I mean it's one of those things that are at birth.

But as you were talking about something happens

in the socialization process

in which we rip empathy.

That we only have it for certain classes of people,

or certain kinds of things and stuff.

Now we have great empathy for our dogs and cats.

You know, when I see a dog or a cat in a Mercedes Benz.

I call it a Buddha cat or a Buddha dog.

Cause it must be a high reincarnation,

you know, I mean, to be able to get that kind of luxury.

But we do amazing things for our pets.

Hackman: Yeah!

Adams: That we won't do for our fellow human beings.

Hackman: Yeah!

Adams You know, so something is happen

to that empathy that is naturally there,

that is part of our process of being human

that can somehow get's torn,

through racism, or classism, or sexism, or homophobia.

Hackman: I, you know, I... it's a... kind of a number

of answers to this, so I'll try to sort them out.

I do think that exactly what we were describing

is that there is a split, you know,

to go to church in the morning

in the white South.

And then to go to a lynching

with your family that afternoon

Adams: Picnic!

Hackman: as entertainment.

Adams: Picnic!

Hackman: Requires, exactly, requires

something to be torn away.

And... and it's difficult to collude

with oppression while your busy being

empathetic to the group that you're with.

So one of the components of oppression,

is it strips away the dominant groups

ability to do that for sure.

But i also think... I've been doing some workshops

with a colleague up in Minneapolis

entitled "More Than Skin Deep

Dismantling White Supremacy

One Cell At A Time."

And she and I are kind of moving into looking at

in addition to lots of ways of looking at issues

of race and racism that I've already discribed.

Looking at the issue of trauma,

and Dr. Joy DeGruy talks about, you know,

post-traumatic slave syndrome in her book,

and What does that mean, and how have white folks

been traumatized by the structures

of racism and white supremacy.

And let me be very clear, I'm not equalizing

in this moment, and so the one way

that super-whitey can recenter itself

is to say, oh yeah, I've been hurt by racism to

so it must go both ways.

No! it doesn't [hand jester]

let me be very clear about that.

However, what allows white people to have that split?

What allows me to turn away?

What allows me to say, oh no, I was just joking?

You know, what gets in the way of me being able

to meet you with my heart?

And so were exploring this idea of trauma,

and how, you know, kind of core survival responses

get triggered in a racist environment.

For folks of color those core survival responses

are such that, it, it creates this constant level of stress.

Which if you look at the you know

National Health Care Disparities report

that just came out this year... 2010.

You can see that even when you

mitigated for class communities of color

have higher rates of heart disease,

higher risk of death, blah, blah, blah,... than white people.

So it's not just access to insurance.

Because when you get class out of the way,

you get insurance out of the way,

racism is having a physical toil

on the people of color.

And so what we get to see is that it does

have physical manifestation.

So what are the physical manifestation for white people.

It's a tearing of our humanity.

What does that do? What does that do?

And so were exploring through kind of looking

at mechanism of trauma, and survival responses.

How have white folks been socialized,

and traumatized in such a way by race

that I have been deluded to think that my survival, [hand jester]

depends on maintaining racism and whiteness.

When in point in fact, this system is killing me.

It's killing you, it's killing all of us, in this society .

And so getting down to deeper

causes and conditions biological,

physiological causes and conditions

of racism in white people.

Is one pathway to begin to explore

what have I lost in my ability

to engage in the moment.

That kind of trauma explanation

helps us to understand why you can have

very well educated white people

I've read everything about white privilege,

in fact, I teach a class on white privilege.

I'm sitting in a meeting, you know,

a department meeting or something,

and some racist comment goes down and I freeze.

So here I am... like this big [mouth jester]

about whiteness. And yet this moment comes,

and I panic, and I freeze, and so

the trauma piece explains that

because trauma is in the frog brain,

survival responses are back here [hand jester]

and all my reading is up hear ][hand jester].

And then those terrifying moments,

tense moments, I go [hand jester] back here.

And so the trauma piece helps us

not resocialize, and re-educate

in just this way, but it helps us to reach back to the lie

that my survival really depends

on maintaining racism and whiteness,

and you can rewire that too.

We can rewire how we've been

brought up as white people.

And that will allow me to more effectively

work in the service of ending racism..

Because in those tense moments

I'll not only have some information to bear,

but I'll have checked myself, and I'll stay in the room.

Adams: Yeah.

Hackman: And I'll say woe, look I'm freaking out... don't leave.

Instead I'll say something.

Adams: What immediately came to mind

when you articulated that was.

The absolute discomfort that affirmative action

has for white people.

They can get five minutes of it,

and be screaming... okay.

But oppressed groups, people of color, women, and so forth

had to endure it for hundreds of years.

Five minutes, they freak out, this is totally un-just... Yes!

Hackman: Yeah... well I think there's a couple pieces

about affirmative action.

One is I get to look at, go to the Bureau of Labor,

and look at the stats around,

and the primary beneficiaries

of affirmative legislation has been

middle-class white women,

have not people of color.

So while I'm all jacked up about [hand jester] wah, wah, wah, wah.

I got my job because of affirmative action.

So, I have to be honest about that.

The second piece though is to complicate

the understanding of affirmative action.

Such that I put white privilege,

and white supremacy into the equation.

And I have students do a race,

and cultural analysis paper.

And I say, well tell me where your family came from,

what's your capitol "C" culture,

what you got going on there?

And their like, uh... I don't know,

but then they dig around, and they go back,

and they realize that, you know their... their

half German, and their German great, great,

grand parents came to Iowa,

and farmed 8 days a week for 40 hours a day,

you know, it snowed all year round then,

and it was horrible, you know, all this struggle,

and this and that.

Or lest say it was in Minnesota,

and they got this farm in 1862.

And I say, on my feedback,

what happened in 1862 do you think?

What happened was, you know,

in this State of Minnesota, is that, varies governors

just took all this land wanted to make sure

it populated quickly with white people, and so

sold it at basement prices... right.

And so then you ask the question

how did your family get that farm

with no money as immigrants

that's an amazing trick... like

tell me how that works, and I might, you know, get into that.

Then what they identify is, well this happened.

I'm like, well who's land was it? well how did that happen?

As you trace the history back, I start to see

that everything that I've got

comes as a result of affirmative action at the hands of

white privilege, and white supremacy,

and so there's a way that we take the legislation

out of the small niche of that, and broaden it, so that

white people have to really become responsible.

Again, not guilty and shameful

that's not terrible useful.

But what would it mean if I'm responsible around it?

What would it mean?

Maybe it means I give the land back.

There's a great book by Dr. Waziyatawin who

the title of the book is "What Does Justice Look Like."

And her suggestion as an indigenous women in Minnesota.

Is give all the state land back.

Every state park give it back,

but before you give it back,

you need to clean it up!

You got to return it in the condition

that you found it... right!

Adams: Nice!

Hackman: And so, give it back! Give those 11 million acres back.

I think to myself... that's not a bad idea actually.

It's not a bad idea, it's about making a mends,

and so when the United States Congress

was about to, you know, pass some kind of resolution

not a law or anything, but a resolution.

I think it was toward the Turkish government

about Armenian Genocide.

The European press said, you know, "It's fascinating

that your concerned about genocide,

you know, were just curious, what are you doing about,

you know, American Indian Genocide?"

And quickly congress said... well we don't have time

to talk about that right now, you know,

and they dropped it! They dropped it!

And so it does it begs the question of

when we learn the true history

what do we do about it?

And more than just apologizing

we have the capacity, as a white dominant society

to make amends, and set it right.

Adams: Hard for us!

Hackman: Yeah!

Adams: You know, hard for us.

So much to talk about let, let's go

a little bit back to the P12's,

and talk about children, and what messages

we need to be sending to them as early as possible.

One about getting the history straight.

And then second their responsibility

to live a life that has social justice

Hackman: Yeah.

Adams: as a core value? How do we do that one?

Hackman: Um... I think it's more than just a...

some kind of a casual kum ba yah type of mements.

I think it's really more about

embedding care, and concern for others,

and not just [hand jester] kind of, I like you.

But care and concern as we understand

the relationship to resources,

and as we understand the relationship to community.

Deeply embed that in the ways

that we engage with young people in society.

And so what that produces then is a hunger

for justice, more than the seductive

privileges of oppression.

And so if we can embed those kinds of principles

in early education, and I often say,

cause I think there's a little bit of bias

in P12, were secondary folks are like

WELL [hand jester] REAL EDUCATION HAPPENS IN HIGH SCHOOL!

You know, and their like yeah!

My analogy to that is that would be like saying

eat McDonald's until ninth grade.

Like subsist on nothing but McDonald's,

and then worry about your diet when your fourteen.

Like, you'll be five hundred pounds with heart disease

a fourteen year old, and so that's ridiculous.

We need to worry about it from the get go.

We need to worry about these issues,

about how to deeply, and thoughtfully, and critically

educate young people from the get go.

And those are about, not just about care

in a white liberal sense.

White liberalism is were, I feel so bad for those people.

I'm gonna go save those people.

Instead what were doing is were recognizing

that my core humanity, is directly tied to yours.

We are in this boat together,

so what happens to you does happen to me.

We engender that with young people

with deeper conversations about

social responsibility, about different ways

of shaping community, and inter, and being interdependent.

Not independent, but interdependent.

We start to ask questions about resources.

I'm not going to give a kindergartner a lecture on

multinational corporations and, you know,

class structure in the United States.

I am going to say: If everybody has enough everybody does better.

Everybody does better when we all do better.

And now I'm going to get critics

your a communist, I'm not saying

that social justice education doesn't say

everybody's got to have the same.

It says: Everybody needs to have enough to be okay.

Then if you want your big mansion

I guess you can have that, that's fine.

But not at the expense of some schools

not having books in their schools.

It's totally unacceptable,

and it's an uncivilized way to live.

And so let's find an humane base line.

Everybody can take books home.

Everybody can you know blah, blah, blah, blah , blah.

And then anything above that,

if you can achieve that go right ahead.

But we will never have success in this society

at the expense of the base humanity of other people.

So when we talk about resources to young people

we talk about what's the humane baseline?

And how will we make sure everyone has enough?

And then so you can actualize, and achieve

to your fullest potential.

But your not going to do well

if you hadn't eaten that day.

Adams: Yes!

Hackman: One of my classes you know,

I acknowledged that 3 out of 10 people

identify, and gender present as women

have active eating disorders.

So I'm really clear about that, but I say,

you know, if on reflection for yourself

your not one of those people.

And I usually teach classes

in the late morning in the afternoon.

I say don't eat before class, don't eat a thing

before you come to class

on the next class period.

And were going to see how well you do, you know,

and so have experience of understanding

a lack of resources, if you don't already have that.

Maybe you come from a class background

were you actually do have that.

But if you're sitting here not understanding

why those people can't eat, or why those people

can't do well on test. Then put yourself

in that position for just a minute, and look at what happens

to your cognitive capacity when your blood sugar is that low.

When you haven't been well fed that day.

And so what would it mean for all of our achievement.

If we just made sure everybody had enough food.

And so with young people we talk about

community and interdependence,

we talk about social justice values,

we talk about those kinds of things and embed that.

The challenge for every school that tries to do that.

Is you're going to be accused of being a communist.

You know, that anti American.. rugged individualism.

I have lots of students who say

I'm an individual, you know, I don't like this group

think crap your putting out there,

I'm like fair enough.

So you are an individual,

you have achieved everything all by yourself?

And their like, heck yeah! I'm like

so you failed the tree, made the paper,

printed that book that your reading

like that's astounding that you had time

to do that and I'm grateful that you did it

cause I like that book too.

You know, and so you grew the food you ate this morning?

And you, you know, mined the... drilled the oil

that made it blah, blah, blah.

And no they haven't, they haven't.

So the illusion of rugged individualism is just that!

It's an illusion... were deeply interdependent society.

So, let's be honest with the peewees about that,

and help them learn to act in such a way.

again it doesn't mean were all calling

each other Conrade or something like that.

What it means is, were walking around

knowing that everybody has enough.

When everybody has enough

that makes a society far more safe and secured.

Far more productive, and far happier,

we just are happier people, healthier people.

Adams: Yeah, and that's reestablishing

that connections back to our empathy.

Hackman: Yeah!

Adams: Were we can really truly see

people as connected to us as brothers and sisters.

I mean there's something about that

I really like a lot.

Hackman: Yeah, I do to.

Adams: And... I use it a lot and sometimes

I disarm people, you know, and they say

whew I thought you only called

people of color your brothers and sisters.

Well, you look my brother and sister too, you know,

If we can get used to that

we have a much better chance of easing

some of this distress that exist in the planet.

Anything you like to add before we wrap this up?

Hackman: Well, just a couple thoughts.

One is that I think that many times

when we look at critical issues like these

we kind of turn our eye toward P12's,

and I actually turned much of my frustration

toward teacher education.

In that we are, in my opinion, and from what I have read.

Willfully behind, the realities of whats

on the ground in our public schools.

And so I have some interesting experiences

with other colleagues in teacher education

who actually find what I teach, and what you teach

to be completely irrelevant

Adams: Yes.

Hackman: and a waste of time.

That is such out dated thinking,

and we don't even have time for that.

I mean it's just... it's such an unbelievable conversation in 2011.

And so I guess that one thing I would say

is to put a call to teacher education,

and say in simple terms

can you get with the program here... honestly.

Get with what's the reality of this society,

and learn to embed, social justice issues

in every aspect of teacher education,

and prepare what is still a majority

white teaching force, to be far more aware,

culturally competent, and critically able

to address issues of racism, sexism,

hetero-sexism, homophobia in our schools. .

If we made a mass movement

in teacher education in that direction.

Then we would find some profound change

happening in our schools.

Profound change, but as long as we allow

Teacher-Ed to be a little bit

behind the curve in theses issues,

and don't prepare teachers for it,

and then have a vastly changing,

dramatically changing student, and family demographic,

that has a different set of needs.

Then, and then blame public education for it,

without looking at Teacher-Ed

we will forever be struggling with the same issues,

again, and again, and again and we will lose,

we will lose an enormous amount of human capital.

Enormous amount of human capital!

So yeah! I quest I would, my last words would be...

kind of, a call to Teacher-Ed

to step up more [head jester].

Adams: Outstanding! Thank you very much!

Hackman: Cool! Thank you! Thanks a lot!

It's good to be here!

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Text: Researcher and Interviewer

Dr. J. Q. Adams Western Illinois University

Producer

Dr. Janice R. Welsch

Western Illinois University

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Text: Special Thanks to Dr. Heather W. Hackman

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Credits: Director/Editor Mark A. Dial

Production Facilities provided by

University Television Wester Illinois University

Funding Provided by California Community Foundation

Illinois Association of Cultural Diversity

Western Illinois University

Western Illinois University [copyright] 2011

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