WEBVTT 00:00:00.500 --> 00:00:02.015 Text: Interview with Dr. Heather W. Hackman 00:00:02.015 --> 00:00:03.685 Human Relations & Multicultural Education 00:00:03.685 --> 00:00:10.262 St. Cloud State University 00:00:10.262 --> 00:00:20.315 By Dr. J. Q. Adams Educational & Interdisciplinary Studies Western Illinois University 00:00:20.315 --> 00:00:23.743 Dr. J. Q. Adams: Good morning we have Dr. Heather Hackman here 00:00:23.743 --> 00:00:25.982 and I'd like you to introduce yourself 00:00:25.982 --> 00:00:28.347 and share with us some a little bit 00:00:28.347 --> 00:00:30.079 about your background, and what you do. 00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:31.613 Dr. Heather Hackman: Great! Well first of all 00:00:31.613 --> 00:00:33.002 I just want to thank you for having me. 00:00:33.002 --> 00:00:36.066 It's a privilege to be here and I have been 00:00:36.066 --> 00:00:37.815 following the work that you and Janice 00:00:37.815 --> 00:00:38.963 have done for a long time so. 00:00:38.963 --> 00:00:42.464 I'm excited to have this conversation. 00:00:42.464 --> 00:00:44.025 I teach up at St. Cloud State 00:00:44.025 --> 00:00:46.050 in the College of Education, in the 00:00:46.050 --> 00:00:48.933 Department of Human Relations and Multicultural, 00:00:48.933 --> 00:00:50.779 and I think similar to Illinois. 00:00:50.779 --> 00:00:52.947 Minnesota has a Human Relations 00:00:52.947 --> 00:00:54.448 Multicultural Educational requirement 00:00:54.448 --> 00:00:56.344 for all Teacher-Ed folks 00:00:56.344 --> 00:00:58.986 and so, that's the bulk of my teaching load. 00:00:58.986 --> 00:01:00.443 I've been there 11 years 00:01:00.443 --> 00:01:02.965 and I only meant to stay a couple, 00:01:02.965 --> 00:01:05.448 but then you get stuck right... in a good way 00:01:05.448 --> 00:01:07.330 stuck in a good way. 00:01:07.330 --> 00:01:11.379 And so what I do is, student's from all, all Teacher-Ed 00:01:11.379 --> 00:01:12.947 Prep programs comes through that class 00:01:12.947 --> 00:01:14.581 and then they go back out to their 00:01:14.581 --> 00:01:18.938 Special Ed, Phy Ed, Tech Ed, L-Ed programs. 00:01:18.938 --> 00:01:21.180 And so, that again has been the bulk 00:01:21.180 --> 00:01:24.439 of my teaching for the least 11 years. 00:01:24.439 --> 00:01:28.484 It's a very exciting field and exciting set of content. 00:01:28.484 --> 00:01:30.172 It's incredibly frustrating to try and teach 00:01:30.172 --> 00:01:32.554 all of that in one semester. 00:01:32.554 --> 00:01:35.841 But as time has gone on just in my career 00:01:35.841 --> 00:01:37.008 at St. Cloud State. 00:01:37.008 --> 00:01:40.144 It's clear that it becomes more, more, and more necessary . 00:01:40.144 --> 00:01:41.599 Which is actually what led me to 00:01:41.599 --> 00:01:43.593 also do quite a bit of training in schools. 00:01:43.593 --> 00:01:44.811 I think I mentioned to you 00:01:44.811 --> 00:01:46.398 I do about forty trainings a year. 00:01:46.398 --> 00:01:48.282 Primarily focusing on initially on 00:01:48.282 --> 00:01:52.048 Diversity verses Cultural Competency 00:01:52.048 --> 00:01:54.849 verses Social Justice Education and what the differences 00:01:54.849 --> 00:01:56.993 are their all valuable approaches. 00:01:56.993 --> 00:01:59.141 But their definitely not the same 00:01:59.141 --> 00:02:02.025 and from that, then moving into 00:02:02.025 --> 00:02:04.931 how we engage in anti-racist pedagogy. 00:02:04.931 --> 00:02:06.621 How we address issues of racism 00:02:06.621 --> 00:02:09.042 and white privilege in our schools. 00:02:09.042 --> 00:02:12.531 How teachers, staff, and family and all support members 00:02:12.531 --> 00:02:15.267 in a school environment can really learn 00:02:15.267 --> 00:02:17.270 to address that in an ongoing way. 00:02:17.270 --> 00:02:19.598 So, I would say the bulk of my work today 00:02:19.598 --> 00:02:21.532 is an even split if you will 00:02:21.532 --> 00:02:23.988 between teaching and working with pre-service 00:02:23.988 --> 00:02:25.659 and in-service students 00:02:25.659 --> 00:02:28.327 and then, time in schools, working with buildings 00:02:28.327 --> 00:02:29.984 or whole districts and getting them 00:02:29.984 --> 00:02:32.047 to move a little bit around issues 00:02:32.047 --> 00:02:34.285 of racism and white privilege. 00:02:34.285 --> 00:02:37.514 Adams: Where in the era of Obama 00:02:37.514 --> 00:02:39.410 and there are many people who feel, of course, 00:02:39.410 --> 00:02:42.221 that race is no longer a major issue. 00:02:42.221 --> 00:02:43.719 Hackman: Yeah! 00:02:43.719 --> 00:02:45.711 Adams: Can you kind of deconstruct that for us 00:02:45.711 --> 00:02:48.455 and talk to us about why your work 00:02:48.455 --> 00:02:50.682 now is perhaps even more important 00:02:50.682 --> 00:02:52.880 then before Obama? 00:02:52.880 --> 00:02:53.630 Hackman: Yeah... yeah you know I think 00:02:53.630 --> 00:02:55.455 it's an interesting conversation about the 00:02:55.455 --> 00:02:58.247 post-racial environment with Obama. 00:02:58.247 --> 00:03:01.767 And my memory is, and correct me if I'm wrong, 00:03:01.767 --> 00:03:06.016 Is that once he won the Iowa Caucuses 00:03:06.016 --> 00:03:08.851 the amount of anti- or the amount of racist sentiment 00:03:08.851 --> 00:03:11.954 directed toward him across the country was pretty profound. 00:03:11.954 --> 00:03:15.746 I mean I kept reading in... in small side columns in newspapers 00:03:15.746 --> 00:03:19.283 or hearing small stories in the news about effigies 00:03:19.283 --> 00:03:21.438 hung from trees on college campuses. 00:03:21.438 --> 00:03:23.702 Or effigies of him burned. 00:03:23.702 --> 00:03:27.181 Anti-racist sentiment appearing on the dorm 00:03:27.181 --> 00:03:28.882 residential hall doors 00:03:28.882 --> 00:03:31.380 of students of color etc., etc.. 00:03:31.380 --> 00:03:32.498 And so, I think it would be interesting 00:03:32.498 --> 00:03:35.016 if it was a post racial era. 00:03:35.016 --> 00:03:36.507 But in point of fact, what I think it has done 00:03:36.507 --> 00:03:40.666 is really raise to the four, the explicit nature 00:03:40.666 --> 00:03:43.397 of race in the United States. 00:03:43.397 --> 00:03:47.567 And the depth and breathe of the challenges 00:03:47.567 --> 00:03:51.067 that this society has around racial justice, 00:03:51.067 --> 00:03:54.395 and where it's a, it's a promise yet to be fulfilled. 00:03:54.395 --> 00:03:57.009 Were not there yet, and... and the election 00:03:57.009 --> 00:03:59.599 of one individual is certainly a step 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:01.700 so I don't mean to dismiss that at all. 00:04:01.700 --> 00:04:05.283 I definitely saw the mall 00:04:05.283 --> 00:04:07.015 on a very cold day in January 00:04:07.015 --> 00:04:10.264 on his inauguration filled with people. 00:04:10.264 --> 00:04:12.365 White folks who've been strong allies, 00:04:12.365 --> 00:04:14.617 and folks of color from varies 00:04:14.617 --> 00:04:16.850 communities of color, so deeply moved 00:04:16.850 --> 00:04:19.125 because this was such a monumental day. 00:04:19.125 --> 00:04:20.235 A day that many of them said, 00:04:20.235 --> 00:04:21.901 I'd never thought I'd see this in my life time. 00:04:21.901 --> 00:04:22.581 Adams: I was one of them. 00:04:22.581 --> 00:04:24.416 Hackman: Yeah! So, both are true right? 00:04:24.416 --> 00:04:26.584 Both are true, it was amazing, amazing moment. 00:04:26.584 --> 00:04:28.631 And yet, that single moment, 00:04:28.631 --> 00:04:30.116 or that single election, 00:04:30.116 --> 00:04:32.827 or that single individual is not enough 00:04:32.827 --> 00:04:36.401 to UN-weave the fabric of racism, 00:04:36.401 --> 00:04:38.617 and racial injustice in the United States. 00:04:38.617 --> 00:04:40.933 It's a step for sure, and it certainly 00:04:40.933 --> 00:04:44.566 given us cause for conversation, just with the phrase 00:04:44.566 --> 00:04:47.016 "Post-racial in the United States". 00:04:47.016 --> 00:04:48.883 So that's been fabulous, and yet 00:04:48.883 --> 00:04:51.117 it's not were we need to go 00:04:51.117 --> 00:04:54.342 the way that translate into schools. 00:04:54.342 --> 00:04:55.764 Is like, you know, on the one hand 00:04:55.764 --> 00:05:00.132 many students of color have for generations 00:05:00.132 --> 00:05:02.334 sat in US Public P12's, 00:05:02.334 --> 00:05:04.584 and not seen themselves in the curriculum. 00:05:04.584 --> 00:05:06.168 And so now here's an opportunity 00:05:06.168 --> 00:05:08.883 to... for at least one community of color 00:05:08.883 --> 00:05:12.736 to say yeah here I am... finally here I am. 00:05:12.736 --> 00:05:15.735 And other communities of color can in similar ways say, 00:05:15.735 --> 00:05:17.705 yes maybe some different things are possible 00:05:17.705 --> 00:05:18.343 in the United States. 00:05:18.343 --> 00:05:20.892 So on the one hand, it does change 00:05:20.892 --> 00:05:23.235 the landscape of public schools just a little bit, 00:05:23.235 --> 00:05:25.932 but on the other hand, our public school curriculum, 00:05:25.932 --> 00:05:29.036 our teacher- ed structure, and the structure of 00:05:29.036 --> 00:05:30.533 US education structure as a whole. 00:05:30.533 --> 00:05:32.025 Has not fundamentally changed 00:05:32.025 --> 00:05:33.435 with the election of President Obama. 00:05:33.435 --> 00:05:34.408 Adams: Right! 00:05:34.408 --> 00:05:36.036 Hackman: And so, that's the issue! 00:05:36.036 --> 00:05:37.602 That's the issue that we need to get to. 00:05:37.602 --> 00:05:41.504 Is what is the nature of this core structure, 00:05:41.504 --> 00:05:43.900 and if were really committed to ending racism, 00:05:43.900 --> 00:05:45.305 and challenging white privilege 00:05:45.305 --> 00:05:46.244 in the United States. 00:05:46.244 --> 00:05:47.539 Then we have to get very serious 00:05:47.539 --> 00:05:50.068 about conversations about that structure. 00:05:50.068 --> 00:05:52.916 So while curriculum changes are important, 00:05:52.916 --> 00:05:54.785 and really valuable, and while the example 00:05:54.785 --> 00:05:58.933 of President Obama is such a wonderful example 00:05:58.933 --> 00:06:00.766 particularly for a little pee-wees, you know, 00:06:00.766 --> 00:06:03.202 they see something very different in their life 00:06:03.202 --> 00:06:05.967 this would have been normal. 00:06:05.967 --> 00:06:08.967 So while that's so true, and powerful in our schools. 00:06:08.967 --> 00:06:11.783 It is also true that we have to address 00:06:11.783 --> 00:06:14.027 root causes, and the root structure 00:06:14.027 --> 00:06:16.035 of racial inequality in our public schools, 00:06:16.035 --> 00:06:18.708 and we haven't done that. 00:06:18.708 --> 00:06:21.334 Adams: In your intro you... you differentiated 00:06:21.334 --> 00:06:25.035 between a number of delivery systems. 00:06:25.035 --> 00:06:28.933 Diversity Approaches, Cultural Competency, 00:06:28.933 --> 00:06:31.767 and then your more Anti-racist way. 00:06:31.767 --> 00:06:32.267 Hackman: Yeah! 00:06:32.267 --> 00:06:34.934 Adams: Can you talk about what differs 00:06:34.934 --> 00:06:38.159 between each of those, and why your work, 00:06:38.159 --> 00:06:41.011 you think, maybe more salient then the others? 00:06:41.011 --> 00:06:45.433 Hackman: Yeah! It's actually kind of the typical 00:06:45.433 --> 00:06:48.140 intro lecture that I give. Both in my 00:06:48.140 --> 00:06:49.634 Teacher-Ed classes, and often times 00:06:49.634 --> 00:06:51.002 when I go into schools. 00:06:51.002 --> 00:06:54.785 And so diversity is really fundamentally about 00:06:54.785 --> 00:06:56.819 looking at appreciation, awareness 00:06:56.819 --> 00:06:58.217 of difference, and that's a good thing. 00:06:58.217 --> 00:07:00.480 So I'm not... I'm not dissing on that at all. 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:02.214 It's an very important component 00:07:02.214 --> 00:07:05.826 to learning how to live in an, in an, incredibly 00:07:05.826 --> 00:07:08.666 diverse along many different aspects in this society. 00:07:08.666 --> 00:07:10.065 And so appreciation and awareness 00:07:10.065 --> 00:07:11.734 of difference is vital... 00:07:11.734 --> 00:07:13.634 it's really vital to our society. 00:07:13.634 --> 00:07:16.752 And yet, it's problematic for a couple with reasons 00:07:16.752 --> 00:07:19.267 Number one is that it doesn't ever look 00:07:19.267 --> 00:07:20.568 at issues of power. 00:07:20.568 --> 00:07:22.419 There's no conversation of power 00:07:22.419 --> 00:07:23.988 in a conversation about awareness 00:07:23.988 --> 00:07:25.647 and appreciation of difference. 00:07:25.647 --> 00:07:28.301 And... and so we don't have a race base 00:07:28.301 --> 00:07:29.384 achievement gap in our schools 00:07:29.384 --> 00:07:31.835 because I don't appreciate you 00:07:31.835 --> 00:07:33.080 or you don't appreciate me. 00:07:33.080 --> 00:07:34.683 We have a race base achievement gap 00:07:34.683 --> 00:07:37.120 in schools because of power and structures. 00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:39.568 And so while diversity education, 00:07:39.568 --> 00:07:40.856 and diversity programing, 00:07:40.856 --> 00:07:43.570 and taking in diversity initiatives in our schools 00:07:43.570 --> 00:07:46.668 are incredibly useful for helping us broaden 00:07:46.668 --> 00:07:51.170 our... our spectrum of awareness, and understanding. 00:07:51.170 --> 00:07:53.502 They don't address the issues of power. 00:07:53.502 --> 00:07:55.586 The second issue around diversity education. 00:07:55.586 --> 00:07:58.383 Is it's typically used as euphemism for race issues. 00:07:58.383 --> 00:08:02.120 And so I encounter a lot of superintendents 00:08:02.120 --> 00:08:03.803 or a lot of principles, or teachers 00:08:03.803 --> 00:08:06.167 majority white folks. 00:08:06.167 --> 00:08:08.749 Who have a hard time using the word race. 00:08:08.749 --> 00:08:09.910 Because their afraid that if they 00:08:09.910 --> 00:08:10.656 even use the word race 00:08:10.656 --> 00:08:12.016 their going to be called racist. 00:08:12.016 --> 00:08:12.884 So they use diversity instead 00:08:12.884 --> 00:08:16.001 cause it's a... fluffier term it's easy 00:08:16.001 --> 00:08:18.058 it just rolls off the tongue... diversity. 00:08:18.058 --> 00:08:19.636 And so they like that... they like that. 00:08:19.636 --> 00:08:23.654 And so it's often euphemistically used as code for race. 00:08:23.654 --> 00:08:26.015 But in point in fact, a true diversity agenda 00:08:26.015 --> 00:08:28.086 would really look at racial diversity, 00:08:28.086 --> 00:08:31.422 gender diversity, class diversity, disability oppression. 00:08:31.422 --> 00:08:33.850 All the social identities that we have in the United States. 00:08:33.850 --> 00:08:35.488 It would really address that 00:08:35.488 --> 00:08:39.504 And so, and so diversity work is important, 00:08:39.504 --> 00:08:41.704 but there are some problematic aspects 00:08:41.704 --> 00:08:44.217 that haven't manifest in our schools. 00:08:44.217 --> 00:08:45.767 Then you've got Cultural Competency. 00:08:45.767 --> 00:08:46.869 Which is fundamentally about 00:08:46.869 --> 00:08:50.620 developing a set of skills, and tools, 00:08:50.620 --> 00:08:53.668 and again awareness, for me to reach across 00:08:53.668 --> 00:08:56.285 cultural lines for me to understand 00:08:56.285 --> 00:08:58.602 linguistic differences, cultural differences, 00:08:58.602 --> 00:09:00.621 difference in values and beliefs. 00:09:00.621 --> 00:09:03.254 And again that could not be more important 00:09:03.254 --> 00:09:04.729 at this point in time. 00:09:04.729 --> 00:09:05.877 I mean I just saw on CNN this morning 00:09:05.877 --> 00:09:09.618 that one of the results from the most recent census was NOTE Paragraph 00:09:09.618 --> 00:09:11.551 that the Chicano Latino population 00:09:11.551 --> 00:09:13.938 makes up over 50 million people in the US. 00:09:13.938 --> 00:09:16.487 That's 1/6 of the US population. 00:09:16.487 --> 00:09:20.570 So if I, as a white educator, don't learn and understand 00:09:20.570 --> 00:09:22.685 kind of the nuances of language. 00:09:22.685 --> 00:09:26.033 If I don't understand the nuances of culture, 00:09:26.033 --> 00:09:28.739 and values, and beliefs I'm in some big trouble 00:09:28.739 --> 00:09:31.493 in my ability to server students. 00:09:31.493 --> 00:09:34.135 So there's, I would never argue that that's important. 00:09:34.135 --> 00:09:38.655 The problem is cultural competency often means 00:09:38.655 --> 00:09:41.587 on the ground, in schools, on the ground. 00:09:41.587 --> 00:09:43.110 It often means that I as a white teacher 00:09:43.110 --> 00:09:46.720 learn about that Latino students culture 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:49.766 so I can better help them be more like me. 00:09:49.766 --> 00:09:51.498 And so, it's a very subtle... there's a subtle 00:09:51.498 --> 00:09:54.430 dynamic of assimilation-ism in cultural 00:09:54.430 --> 00:09:56.010 competency conversations. 00:09:56.010 --> 00:09:57.312 Because they don't get down to... 00:09:57.312 --> 00:10:00.601 again the issue of power. 00:10:00.601 --> 00:10:03.370 And so while we have a multicultural society 00:10:03.370 --> 00:10:05.269 there are certain identity groups 00:10:05.269 --> 00:10:07.938 that also within their cultural identity 00:10:07.938 --> 00:10:10.224 have access to structural power. 00:10:10.224 --> 00:10:11.905 There are certain groups that don't. 00:10:11.905 --> 00:10:13.503 That are continually marginalized. 00:10:13.503 --> 00:10:15.988 So I don't get to talk about my cultural identity 00:10:15.988 --> 00:10:19.256 as if it exist in a vacuum divorce from power, 00:10:19.256 --> 00:10:21.237 and so what often happens again is white teachers 00:10:21.237 --> 00:10:23.407 learn all these cultural tools 00:10:23.407 --> 00:10:25.253 so that we can help those students 00:10:25.253 --> 00:10:26.937 do better on our test. 00:10:26.937 --> 00:10:29.655 So we can help them fit better in [hand jester] "our schools." 00:10:29.655 --> 00:10:32.136 But it begs a question [hand jester] "who's the our there?." 00:10:32.136 --> 00:10:37.254 Of course, it's my frame work, my beliefs, my values. 00:10:37.254 --> 00:10:39.061 And so Cultural Competency work 00:10:39.061 --> 00:10:41.234 is incredibly important, but again 00:10:41.234 --> 00:10:42.971 the issue of power is lost. 00:10:42.971 --> 00:10:44.539 So a social justice framework 00:10:44.539 --> 00:10:47.506 is all about power and privilege. 00:10:47.506 --> 00:10:50.121 Social justice ask questions about access to resources. 00:10:50.121 --> 00:10:51.937 It ask who's got what and why? 00:10:51.937 --> 00:10:54.603 It demands that we look rigorously 00:10:54.603 --> 00:10:56.405 at our history, and say okay 00:10:56.405 --> 00:10:58.853 what's led us to this moment? 00:10:58.853 --> 00:11:01.513 Were not ahistorical beings although US-rs tend 00:11:01.513 --> 00:11:03.339 to have a pretty bad sense of our history. 00:11:03.339 --> 00:11:05.184 I've traveled to Europe a couple times 00:11:05.184 --> 00:11:07.721 and most European taxi drivers 00:11:07.721 --> 00:11:10.320 understand US history and politics 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:12.205 a little bit better then most US-rs do. 00:11:12.205 --> 00:11:13.053 Adams: Sadly, but true... sadly, but true! 00:11:13.053 --> 00:11:15.360 Hackman: Very interesting, very interesting dynamic! 00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:17.669 So a social justice framework 00:11:17.669 --> 00:11:19.704 demands a sense of history, 00:11:19.704 --> 00:11:21.203 and a sense of understanding 00:11:21.203 --> 00:11:22.656 how we got to this moment. 00:11:22.656 --> 00:11:24.472 It demands critical thinking. 00:11:24.472 --> 00:11:26.670 Which is completely different then just thinking. 00:11:26.670 --> 00:11:28.572 Waking up in the morning and saying 00:11:28.572 --> 00:11:30.554 I want cereal for breakfast. 00:11:30.554 --> 00:11:33.455 Is not critical thinking it's just a thought. 00:11:33.455 --> 00:11:35.290 But critical thinking is composed 00:11:35.290 --> 00:11:36.970 of three primary components. 00:11:36.970 --> 00:11:39.587 It means that I look at issues from multiple 00:11:39.587 --> 00:11:41.920 non dominant retrospectives. 00:11:41.920 --> 00:11:43.538 Multiple non dominant perspectives. 00:11:43.538 --> 00:11:45.304 So the example I always give in class is 00:11:45.304 --> 00:11:47.687 that when I was in third grade 00:11:47.687 --> 00:11:49.637 I grew up in Vegas. 00:11:49.637 --> 00:11:52.188 When I was in third grade Mrs. Schneider 00:11:52.188 --> 00:11:53.305 was my homeroom teacher, 00:11:53.305 --> 00:11:55.906 and when she talked about kind of, 00:11:55.906 --> 00:11:57.304 and were in the West, and when she talked 00:11:57.304 --> 00:11:59.788 about the West she called it Westward Expansion. 00:11:59.788 --> 00:12:01.106 So that should give you a tip right there right! 00:12:01.106 --> 00:12:01.843 Adams: Um Hum! 00:12:01.843 --> 00:12:03.521 Hackman: Kind of the school house rock 00:12:03.521 --> 00:12:05.673 elbow room conversation. 00:12:05.673 --> 00:12:07.790 And she said, you know, they needed more room. 00:12:07.790 --> 00:12:09.655 I don't know if she sounded like that 00:12:09.655 --> 00:12:10.638 she was a heavy smoker, 00:12:10.638 --> 00:12:12.053 there's a good chance that she did. 00:12:12.053 --> 00:12:13.159 You know... lots of coffee, lots of cigarettes 00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:17.157 And she said they got in their wagons, and they headed west, 00:12:17.157 --> 00:12:22.156 and it was cold nights all kinds of survival issues, 00:12:22.156 --> 00:12:23.040 and there were a few people there 00:12:23.040 --> 00:12:24.139 bam, bam, get them out of the way.... 00:12:24.139 --> 00:12:26.021 then they got to the ocean 00:12:26.021 --> 00:12:28.538 and stuck a flag in, and was like...WOW!!! 00:12:28.538 --> 00:12:30.105 And I remember sitting there as a third grader thinking. 00:12:30.105 --> 00:12:33.074 That is the most amazing story I have ever heard. 00:12:33.074 --> 00:12:35.955 Like what an adventure camping, you know, it was just great! 00:12:35.955 --> 00:12:38.056 What she failed to mention 00:12:38.056 --> 00:12:40.170 was that there were already a minimum 00:12:40.170 --> 00:12:42.839 of 10 million people just on this continent a minimum. 00:12:42.839 --> 00:12:44.788 There's 500 plus nation bands and tribes 00:12:44.788 --> 00:12:48.011 recognized in North America as a whole. 00:12:48.011 --> 00:12:50.909 And so she just left that out... she just left it out. 00:12:50.909 --> 00:12:52.824 I don't even know her motivations for doing it. 00:12:52.824 --> 00:12:54.906 I don't know if she didn't have the information. 00:12:54.906 --> 00:12:57.039 I don't know if she was just to scared. 00:12:57.039 --> 00:12:58.471 I don't know if she was just 00:12:58.471 --> 00:12:59.938 teaching by the book and sick of teaching. 00:12:59.938 --> 00:13:02.157 I don't know what the deal was, but she left it out. 00:13:02.157 --> 00:13:05.305 And I don't think had she put it in there 00:13:05.305 --> 00:13:07.290 that as a third grader I would have said. 00:13:07.290 --> 00:13:08.605 Mrs. Schneider that sounds more like 00:13:08.605 --> 00:13:10.656 colonization then westward expansion, 00:13:10.656 --> 00:13:12.522 you know, I don't think I would have done that. 00:13:12.522 --> 00:13:14.338 But I think what I would have said is what all 00:13:14.338 --> 00:13:15.868 third graders probably would have said. 00:13:15.868 --> 00:13:17.389 Is raised my little hand, and said, 00:13:17.389 --> 00:13:20.008 you know, where did all the people go? 00:13:20.008 --> 00:13:21.194 So if there's all those people, 00:13:21.194 --> 00:13:22.988 where did they all go? Like what happened? 00:13:22.988 --> 00:13:24.753 Now she's faced with the difficult 00:13:24.753 --> 00:13:26.678 proposition of talking about genocide 00:13:26.678 --> 00:13:29.352 or talking about well, you know, there's only 00:13:29.352 --> 00:13:31.123 the US population now is only 00:13:31.123 --> 00:13:32.269 two percent indigenous. 00:13:32.269 --> 00:13:35.487 She's left with a really hard conversation in her mind. 00:13:35.487 --> 00:13:38.092 But it's honest conversation... 00:13:38.092 --> 00:13:41.513 and so critical thinking involves looking at issues 00:13:41.513 --> 00:13:43.171 from multiple non dominant perspectives. 00:13:43.171 --> 00:13:45.440 Asking questions about power and privilege. 00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:47.408 It's endemic to a social justice framework 00:13:47.408 --> 00:13:48.908 to ask questions about power and privilege. 00:13:48.908 --> 00:13:52.158 And rigorous self reflection, were I say, 00:13:52.158 --> 00:13:54.259 how do I actually know what I know. 00:13:54.259 --> 00:13:55.696 And so, a social justice framework 00:13:55.696 --> 00:13:57.504 get's to issues of racism. 00:13:57.504 --> 00:13:59.767 Because were looking at multiple perspectives 00:13:59.767 --> 00:14:01.606 and asking questions about power 00:14:01.606 --> 00:14:03.567 and fundamentally challenging, 00:14:03.567 --> 00:14:05.207 and consistently challenging my assumptions 00:14:05.207 --> 00:14:07.695 and what I think, I know, about these issues. 00:14:07.695 --> 00:14:10.580 It demands that we talk about oppression... 00:14:10.580 --> 00:14:12.849 yes... and therefore liberation. 00:14:12.849 --> 00:14:15.939 So, if were going to identify what racism is, we have to talk about, 00:14:15.939 --> 00:14:18.492 what an anti-racist society looks like. 00:14:18.492 --> 00:14:20.723 What can this be with racial liberation 00:14:20.723 --> 00:14:21.591 what would it look like? 00:14:21.591 --> 00:14:22.540 What would it feel like? 00:14:22.540 --> 00:14:25.726 Most white students say um-hum. 00:14:25.726 --> 00:14:28.708 Which is really the honest answer... I don't know, I don't know! 00:14:28.708 --> 00:14:31.073 But many students of color have an idea. 00:14:31.073 --> 00:14:32.458 Just like many people who identify 00:14:32.458 --> 00:14:33.623 and gender present as women have a sense of, 00:14:33.623 --> 00:14:36.465 what would it be like if I could walk down the street 00:14:36.465 --> 00:14:38.202 and not worry about sexual assault. 00:14:38.202 --> 00:14:40.074 You know one third of all women in the US 00:14:40.074 --> 00:14:41.184 are going to be sexually assaulted 00:14:41.184 --> 00:14:42.102 in their life-time. 00:14:42.102 --> 00:14:47.632 And so, what would that be like, and there's... it's an farian idea. 00:14:47.632 --> 00:14:49.389 The oppressed will liberate the oppressors. 00:14:49.389 --> 00:14:52.942 Because the oppressed, understand the nature of oppression, 00:14:52.942 --> 00:14:55.158 but they have a sense of who they really are too, 00:14:55.158 --> 00:14:56.772 and what it could be like. 00:14:56.772 --> 00:14:59.941 But the oppressor only has the oppressive dynamic 00:14:59.941 --> 00:15:01.472 that's the only thing they ever know. 00:15:01.472 --> 00:15:03.613 And so a social justice framework 00:15:03.613 --> 00:15:05.307 looks at critical thinking, 00:15:05.307 --> 00:15:07.825 it looks at issues of power and privilege, 00:15:07.825 --> 00:15:10.180 and in terms of issues of race, which is what I spend 00:15:10.180 --> 00:15:12.307 much of my time consulting on. 00:15:12.307 --> 00:15:13.508 It ask questions not just how racism 00:15:13.508 --> 00:15:16.341 targets folks of color, but also asks 00:15:16.341 --> 00:15:18.141 how white people benefit. 00:15:18.141 --> 00:15:20.823 How does this system work as a whole. 00:15:20.823 --> 00:15:22.991 Only, you know, not so we can study 00:15:22.991 --> 00:15:24.290 that and feel depressed. 00:15:24.290 --> 00:15:26.074 But so that we can finally get to a place of, 00:15:26.074 --> 00:15:28.824 how do we create a racially just society, 00:15:28.824 --> 00:15:32.291 or gender liberated society etc. 00:15:32.291 --> 00:15:33.409 Adams: You know you mentioned 00:15:33.409 --> 00:15:36.412 the importance of understanding history. 00:15:36.412 --> 00:15:38.639 I think that's really one of the key points. 00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:41.760 We... we do not do a good job 00:15:41.760 --> 00:15:45.351 of helping young people understand history. 00:15:45.351 --> 00:15:47.714 Because if you go back to those framers, 00:15:47.714 --> 00:15:49.841 and you look at the inconsistencies 00:15:49.841 --> 00:15:53.567 in their messages... there's some pretty brilliant people. 00:15:53.567 --> 00:15:56.725 They had some good noble ideas, 00:15:56.725 --> 00:16:01.359 but their practice, was much different then their ideology. 00:16:01.359 --> 00:16:04.453 Especially in terms of obviously, the slave question. 00:16:04.453 --> 00:16:06.773 The whole question of identity 00:16:06.773 --> 00:16:08.475 when it comes to people 00:16:08.475 --> 00:16:10.009 who didn't look like them. 00:16:10.009 --> 00:16:13.425 Be it indigenous people, or be it Africans, 00:16:13.425 --> 00:16:17.642 and then women, obviously, once again 00:16:17.642 --> 00:16:19.911 were talking about creating a republic 00:16:19.911 --> 00:16:23.359 democratic ideals, and so forth, 00:16:23.359 --> 00:16:26.759 about half your population doesn't have the franchise. 00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:29.697 So, it's... it's helping students develop 00:16:29.697 --> 00:16:33.557 that understanding of what was in their minds, 00:16:33.557 --> 00:16:36.924 you know, how would a Wachee know why 00:16:36.924 --> 00:16:40.161 with these ideals, and then this application 00:16:40.161 --> 00:16:42.524 which becomes our constitution, 00:16:42.524 --> 00:16:44.773 our bill of rights, you know, the beginnings, 00:16:44.773 --> 00:16:47.183 and the foundations of this country. 00:16:47.183 --> 00:16:48.793 So, how do you do that? 00:16:48.793 --> 00:16:52.108 How are you introducing that history 00:16:52.108 --> 00:16:53.710 to your students in a way that's 00:16:53.710 --> 00:16:56.578 palatable to them, and doesn't chase them out of the room 00:16:56.578 --> 00:16:58.546 that makes them want to come back and be engaged? 00:16:58.546 --> 00:17:01.857 Hackman: Yeah... that's a great question. 00:17:01.857 --> 00:17:05.194 To be honest because I think 00:17:05.194 --> 00:17:10.892 there's a particular flavor of history that's taught, 00:17:10.892 --> 00:17:14.210 and so that flavor of history 00:17:14.210 --> 00:17:17.625 is not just framed as information. 00:17:17.625 --> 00:17:20.232 It's framed as the American experience. 00:17:20.232 --> 00:17:23.995 The defining framework for how you understand 00:17:23.995 --> 00:17:26.625 your existence in this society. 00:17:26.625 --> 00:17:29.604 So, to challenge the history, begins to challenge, 00:17:29.604 --> 00:17:31.941 and often they respond unconsciously, 00:17:31.941 --> 00:17:33.966 but it begins to challenge their identity 00:17:33.966 --> 00:17:36.860 as an American, and what does that mean. 00:17:36.860 --> 00:17:40.621 And so I actually start by introducing 00:17:40.621 --> 00:17:43.920 the conversation about what are your values? 00:17:43.920 --> 00:17:44.918 And so, I go to the board, 00:17:44.918 --> 00:17:46.010 and I drawl this really goofy thing 00:17:46.010 --> 00:17:48.022 that looks like broccoli, but artistic license right, 00:17:48.022 --> 00:17:50.675 and so you got a... it's supposed to be a tree 00:17:50.675 --> 00:17:51.759 you've got branches 00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:52.810 you've got the trunk 00:17:52.810 --> 00:17:53.419 you've got the roots. 00:17:53.419 --> 00:17:55.662 I have them do a little values clarification of, 00:17:55.662 --> 00:17:57.043 what are some of the things 00:17:57.043 --> 00:17:59.728 you value, but if it storm came through 00:17:59.728 --> 00:18:01.427 and blew the branches off no big deal. 00:18:01.427 --> 00:18:03.175 And they usually put stuff like... stuff 00:18:03.175 --> 00:18:07.143 big car, fast car that kind of stuff. 00:18:07.143 --> 00:18:08.895 Then on the trunk they put things like 00:18:08.895 --> 00:18:11.743 education, health, and then at the bottom 00:18:11.743 --> 00:18:13.328 they put things like family 00:18:13.328 --> 00:18:15.177 or values that they hold 00:18:15.177 --> 00:18:19.079 like compassion, justice, faith, honesty, 00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:21.412 integrity those kinds of things. 00:18:21.412 --> 00:18:23.044 And so then we talk about, 00:18:23.044 --> 00:18:28.927 so we hold those, throughout the course of the semester, 00:18:28.927 --> 00:18:31.710 and then we introduce history, and ask 00:18:31.710 --> 00:18:34.499 kind of how does this version of history, 00:18:34.499 --> 00:18:37.242 support or not your core values? 00:18:37.242 --> 00:18:39.311 Then how does this understanding of history 00:18:39.311 --> 00:18:42.060 help you honor your core values. 00:18:42.060 --> 00:18:43.177 So, what we find is that 00:18:43.177 --> 00:18:46.443 truth wins out in many ways. 00:18:46.443 --> 00:18:48.516 Truth will kind of prevail 00:18:48.516 --> 00:18:49.871 when it's set in the context 00:18:49.871 --> 00:18:53.947 not of, macro social values, but who they 00:18:53.947 --> 00:18:55.510 really are as human beings. 00:18:55.510 --> 00:18:57.626 Who they really are as, no I believe in integrity 00:18:57.626 --> 00:19:00.276 it's one of my most important things. 00:19:00.276 --> 00:19:03.073 Well based on that, then we should have an honest 00:19:03.073 --> 00:19:04.311 analyst of history, simply 00:19:04.311 --> 00:19:05.426 so that we don't repeat it... right! 00:19:05.426 --> 00:19:06.109 Adams: Um-hum absolutely! 00:19:06.109 --> 00:19:07.426 Hackman: We really don't want to make 00:19:07.426 --> 00:19:08.194 that mistake again. 00:19:08.194 --> 00:19:09.559 And you've got them, in a sense, 00:19:09.559 --> 00:19:11.160 like yeah well, I guess you're right. 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:12.761 And so then I make them read 00:19:12.761 --> 00:19:14.561 Howard Zinn - A Peoples History of the United States 00:19:14.561 --> 00:19:15.729 which freaks them out right 00:19:15.729 --> 00:19:18.228 cause it's like a 650 page book or something. 00:19:18.228 --> 00:19:20.327 And so I slice it up a little bit 00:19:20.327 --> 00:19:22.110 to make it more palatable as you said, 00:19:22.110 --> 00:19:23.692 cause it's totaling overwhelming 00:19:23.692 --> 00:19:25.412 for many undergrads who are taking 00:19:25.412 --> 00:19:27.626 many other classes. 00:19:27.626 --> 00:19:28.996 Then we start to look at history 00:19:28.996 --> 00:19:31.775 from the framework, not of those in power, 00:19:31.775 --> 00:19:34.011 but those who've been disenfranchised. 00:19:34.011 --> 00:19:35.310 We start to ask some questions 00:19:35.310 --> 00:19:37.212 about what was in the minds of folks. 00:19:37.212 --> 00:19:39.477 Like how do you establish colonies, 00:19:39.477 --> 00:19:41.276 and later a larger society 00:19:41.276 --> 00:19:42.526 based on the principles 00:19:42.526 --> 00:19:44.210 democracy, and freedom, and engage 00:19:44.210 --> 00:19:45.800 in the institution of slavery and genocide. 00:19:45.800 --> 00:19:47.547 Like how does that work. 00:19:47.547 --> 00:19:50.861 The primary way is they created race. 00:19:50.861 --> 00:19:52.859 They construct the idea of race 00:19:52.859 --> 00:19:55.208 so that you can hold both things as true. 00:19:55.208 --> 00:19:57.662 Is that this is for people, 00:19:57.662 --> 00:20:00.581 but unfortunately, people of color aren't people. 00:20:00.581 --> 00:20:02.024 So were still okay, you know, 00:20:02.024 --> 00:20:03.943 or women aren't fully human either 00:20:03.943 --> 00:20:05.712 so were still okay. 00:20:05.712 --> 00:20:06.747 Adams:Those small brains you have. 00:20:06.747 --> 00:20:09.300 Hackman: Right! Yes, I know, I know it's really a problem. 00:20:09.300 --> 00:20:10.914 Adams: It's all about cranium size [hand jester]. 00:20:10.914 --> 00:20:12.768 Hackman: It is... it is exactly! 00:20:12.768 --> 00:20:16.429 And so there's ways that we construct justifications 00:20:16.429 --> 00:20:20.032 to hold those two ideals at the same time. 00:20:20.032 --> 00:20:23.269 Those constructions are alive and well today. 00:20:23.269 --> 00:20:26.462 Adams: Once again, very misunderstood 00:20:26.462 --> 00:20:28.844 we don't often see the connection 00:20:28.844 --> 00:20:32.277 of how we got here from there. 00:20:32.277 --> 00:20:35.382 I think that's the bridge that's necessary 00:20:35.382 --> 00:20:39.178 for that critical consciousness to come into being. 00:20:39.178 --> 00:20:42.613 One needs to know about those cranium studies. 00:20:42.613 --> 00:20:45.644 One needs to know how standardized test 00:20:45.644 --> 00:20:47.480 gets turned around in a way 00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:49.831 that it begins to marginalize people. 00:20:49.831 --> 00:20:50.466 Hackman: Yeah 00:20:50.466 --> 00:20:54.597 Adams: One needs to understand, who and what 00:20:54.597 --> 00:20:56.429 the Dillingham Commission did. 00:20:56.429 --> 00:20:59.728 When you speak those truths to most 00:20:59.728 --> 00:21:02.192 of our audiences, whether their undergrads or grads 00:21:02.192 --> 00:21:04.562 they have know idea of what your talking about at all. 00:21:04.562 --> 00:21:05.193 Hackman: Yeah. 00:21:05.193 --> 00:21:08.000 Adams: That have not been part of their experience 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:10.937 in terms of understanding America. 00:21:10.937 --> 00:21:12.486 Hackman: So what do you do for them in that moment? 00:21:12.486 --> 00:21:15.413 How do you bridge potential resistance 00:21:15.413 --> 00:21:18.597 or just shock, on someone in, like your experience? 00:21:18.597 --> 00:21:20.949 Adams: I find shock is good! [laughter] 00:21:20.949 --> 00:21:23.128 Actually a little cognitive dissonance 00:21:23.128 --> 00:21:25.890 opens up the pathways. 00:21:25.890 --> 00:21:28.611 What I do is have them create their own awe has. 00:21:28.611 --> 00:21:34.329 So... so rather then, you know, my telling them this, 00:21:34.329 --> 00:21:37.646 you know, I send them on an exploration for it, you know, 00:21:37.646 --> 00:21:40.250 So read about Agassi, 00:21:40.250 --> 00:21:42.967 read about Morton, read about these characters, 00:21:42.967 --> 00:21:44.568 and then come and talk to me about 00:21:44.568 --> 00:21:46.628 what you think this means. 00:21:46.628 --> 00:21:52.849 Let's take a look at the Antibon Period, you know, in 00:21:52.849 --> 00:21:56.336 let's explorer what was being preached in the pulpits. 00:21:56.336 --> 00:21:58.981 Especially in the South. 00:21:58.981 --> 00:22:01.978 Let's take a look at this version of Christianity 00:22:01.978 --> 00:22:04.324 verses your own version of Christianity, 00:22:04.324 --> 00:22:06.778 and suddenly, you know, those uh-huhs has happen... 00:22:06.778 --> 00:22:09.013 it's like wow, I didn't know that this is what they were, 00:22:09.013 --> 00:22:10.562 you know, saying from the pulpit . 00:22:10.562 --> 00:22:12.764 Or I didn't know this was what modern science 00:22:12.764 --> 00:22:15.728 was saying about, you know, issues of race. 00:22:15.728 --> 00:22:17.703 and then the uh-huhs happen. 00:22:17.703 --> 00:22:18.805 Hackman Yeah. 00:22:18.805 --> 00:22:20.184 Adams: And once you create the uh-huhs, 00:22:20.184 --> 00:22:22.198 then that's fertile ground for, you know, 00:22:22.198 --> 00:22:23.296 for really doing that kind of work 00:22:23.296 --> 00:22:24.862 that I think we both enjoy. 00:22:24.862 --> 00:22:26.100 Hackman: Yeah! 00:22:26.100 --> 00:22:29.064 I think two other questions that go with that well. 00:22:29.064 --> 00:22:32.893 Are asking them, once they kind of have those moments 00:22:32.893 --> 00:22:34.381 of cognitive dissonance, why do you think 00:22:34.381 --> 00:22:36.077 you didn't know this? 00:22:36.077 --> 00:22:39.383 What do you think happened there? 00:22:39.383 --> 00:22:40.982 Your teachers were pretty smart people 00:22:40.982 --> 00:22:42.527 what do you think happened? 00:22:42.527 --> 00:22:45.252 with that history book, that said Rosa was just tired. 00:22:45.252 --> 00:22:47.030 Were do you think that came from? 00:22:47.030 --> 00:22:49.396 And then the critical question, I think, 00:22:49.396 --> 00:22:52.414 is to say, and what will you do about this? 00:22:52.414 --> 00:22:53.882 So what are you going to do in your own pedagogy, 00:22:53.882 --> 00:22:54.832 when you get in a classroom 00:22:54.832 --> 00:22:56.708 your the third grade teacher, 00:22:56.708 --> 00:22:59.446 and that unit comes up, you know, 00:22:59.446 --> 00:23:01.396 are you going to say, they needed more room, 00:23:01.396 --> 00:23:03.750 or are you actually going to do something different. 00:23:03.750 --> 00:23:06.864 And so it's the... that moment of dissonance 00:23:06.864 --> 00:23:09.445 you can't go very far if they don't have it, 00:23:09.445 --> 00:23:10.844 you know, or if I don't have it. 00:23:10.844 --> 00:23:12.563 I won't get very far in my own learning. 00:23:12.563 --> 00:23:15.166 But then the structural or power question 00:23:15.166 --> 00:23:16.714 of why didn't you know? 00:23:16.714 --> 00:23:17.813 It didn't just happen that way, 00:23:17.813 --> 00:23:19.931 and what will you do about it now? 00:23:19.931 --> 00:23:22.966 I think for a teacher-ed students it's critical. 00:23:22.966 --> 00:23:24.669 Adams: Absolutely! 00:23:24.669 --> 00:23:27.594 In that reflective piece that you referred to NOTE Paragraph 00:23:27.594 --> 00:23:30.710 sometimes I think that, perhaps it is the most important thing. 00:23:30.710 --> 00:23:34.267 If we just get them to reflect, 00:23:34.267 --> 00:23:36.102 you know, to really examine their actions 00:23:36.102 --> 00:23:38.766 examine again, their own core values, and so forth, 00:23:38.766 --> 00:23:41.535 and then how that relates to the students that their teaching, 00:23:41.535 --> 00:23:43.847 and the world were preparing them for. 00:23:43.847 --> 00:23:46.947 But once again... how do you get them 00:23:46.947 --> 00:23:49.065 to make time to do that? 00:23:49.065 --> 00:23:51.781 Given all the things that their juggling, 00:23:51.781 --> 00:23:54.219 you know, as undergrads, or as practitioners, 00:23:54.219 --> 00:23:57.064 you know, how do you get them to see 00:23:57.064 --> 00:23:58.731 the value of reflection? 00:23:58.731 --> 00:24:02.616 Hackman: Yeah, yeah it's yeah, it's 00:24:02.616 --> 00:24:04.882 I think the action piece is what helps with that. 00:24:04.882 --> 00:24:07.948 I think they see that, talking about oppression 00:24:07.948 --> 00:24:08.864 doesn't mean just depression. 00:24:08.864 --> 00:24:12.231 It's like... awe the world is horrible, you know, 00:24:12.231 --> 00:24:14.756 and then have a good semester, and then your done, 00:24:14.756 --> 00:24:16.327 you know, it can't be that 00:24:16.327 --> 00:24:17.865 it has to be more than that. 00:24:17.865 --> 00:24:19.503 And so, there's a sense of relief in thinking, 00:24:19.503 --> 00:24:21.766 okay so now I understand this 00:24:21.766 --> 00:24:23.595 and there's something I can do about it. 00:24:23.595 --> 00:24:28.521 And so, that action [hand jester], you know, hope, and action together 00:24:28.521 --> 00:24:30.798 are a really powerful combination. 00:24:30.798 --> 00:24:34.918 Hope without action is, you know, kind of... stuck 00:24:34.918 --> 00:24:37.668 it loses it's oomph, but action without any sense of hope 00:24:37.668 --> 00:24:41.517 often leads to cynicism, and despair and so there has to be 00:24:41.517 --> 00:24:43.870 that combination of oh... I can think of 00:24:43.870 --> 00:24:45.550 a better way for this to go, 00:24:45.550 --> 00:24:47.381 and I can do it to. 00:24:47.381 --> 00:24:50.550 Adams: So, I'm interested your approaches 00:24:50.550 --> 00:24:54.047 when your working with school districts. 00:24:54.047 --> 00:24:57.591 Are you forced sometimes into bandage situations? 00:24:57.591 --> 00:24:59.293 Or do you only take those school districts 00:24:59.293 --> 00:25:01.147 who are willing to, [hand jester] roll their sleeves up, 00:25:01.147 --> 00:25:03.061 and really be engaged? 00:25:03.061 --> 00:25:06.279 Hackman: Um... I think it's a broad spectrum 00:25:06.279 --> 00:25:09.757 actually it's a broad spectrum, 00:25:09.757 --> 00:25:13.727 and I think in... in bandage moments 00:25:13.727 --> 00:25:15.894 it's a moment of opportunity and so 00:25:15.894 --> 00:25:17.971 you have to start [hand jester] a little farther back. 00:25:17.971 --> 00:25:19.048 And so I often start with the 00:25:19.048 --> 00:25:22.263 Diversity, Cultural Competency, Social Justice conversation, 00:25:22.263 --> 00:25:23.879 and ask them to kind of figure out 00:25:23.879 --> 00:25:27.864 as a school, or a district, what is it that you really want to do? 00:25:27.864 --> 00:25:29.662 And you can do it just be honest about it, 00:25:29.662 --> 00:25:31.428 and understand that you can have 00:25:31.428 --> 00:25:32.944 food festivals all you want 00:25:32.944 --> 00:25:35.778 for cultural competency, and those are great. 00:25:35.778 --> 00:25:37.580 Everyone will be very full, 00:25:37.580 --> 00:25:39.730 and happy that they ate all that good stuff. 00:25:39.730 --> 00:25:41.746 But there will still be racism in your school 00:25:41.746 --> 00:25:43.144 so you just need to understand that. 00:25:43.144 --> 00:25:44.811 That while their milling down the tacos 00:25:44.811 --> 00:25:47.101 there also going to be with a full mouth [mouth jester] 00:25:47.101 --> 00:25:48.356 saying the thing their going to say, you know, 00:25:48.356 --> 00:25:51.102 and so get that, just get that. 00:25:51.102 --> 00:25:52.610 And just to be honest about it, 00:25:52.610 --> 00:25:56.162 and so many schools, you know, with that intro conversation 00:25:56.162 --> 00:25:59.861 do locate themselves, and then begin the process 00:25:59.861 --> 00:26:02.266 of moving along, and moving along. 00:26:02.266 --> 00:26:03.962 I don't think there's a linear development 00:26:03.962 --> 00:26:06.026 between the three, but I think in terms of 00:26:06.026 --> 00:26:10.145 risk assessment with the community actually. 00:26:10.145 --> 00:26:13.361 Minnesota is a largely white state, 00:26:13.361 --> 00:26:15.178 and so the risk assessment of jumping 00:26:15.178 --> 00:26:16.844 right to an anti-racist framework 00:26:16.844 --> 00:26:19.031 in a rural white school district 00:26:19.031 --> 00:26:20.361 that's a pretty risky thing to do. 00:26:20.361 --> 00:26:21.929 So, they actually do say let's begin here, 00:26:21.929 --> 00:26:23.444 and we want to get to this. 00:26:23.444 --> 00:26:24.580 But we've got to bring 00:26:24.580 --> 00:26:27.116 our community along as well. 00:26:27.116 --> 00:26:29.598 And so in some bandage situations, I start there. 00:26:29.598 --> 00:26:31.797 But in other situations where schools 00:26:31.797 --> 00:26:33.362 are districts, or buildings, are really 00:26:33.362 --> 00:26:36.414 ready to go, then I begin the conversation 00:26:36.414 --> 00:26:40.029 of race, racism with a conversation of race. 00:26:40.029 --> 00:26:42.895 What is, what is race? 00:26:42.895 --> 00:26:44.178 And I love that video series 00:26:44.178 --> 00:26:45.831 Race the Power of An Illusion. 00:26:45.831 --> 00:26:47.712 I strongly recommend it to anybody 00:26:47.712 --> 00:26:49.761 in Teacher-Ed absolutely use that. 00:26:49.761 --> 00:26:52.364 We talk about what's race? 00:26:52.364 --> 00:26:53.827 Because we've been socialized 00:26:53.827 --> 00:26:56.261 as a macro-society to not really question 00:26:56.261 --> 00:26:59.879 that, but just to assume that it is something. 00:26:59.879 --> 00:27:03.499 But it's not it's completely made up, totally made up. 00:27:03.499 --> 00:27:09.112 And... I think it was Goebbels or Himmler who said 00:27:09.112 --> 00:27:12.325 "If you say a lie enough times people will believe it." 00:27:12.325 --> 00:27:14.512 And that's the truth with race in this society. 00:27:14.512 --> 00:27:18.602 If you make race seem real... for long enough 00:27:18.602 --> 00:27:20.084 which we've been doing for a few hundred years. 00:27:20.084 --> 00:27:22.644 Then we get to the place 00:27:22.644 --> 00:27:23.664 were we are right now 00:27:23.664 --> 00:27:26.679 were we essentialize certain qualities, based on skin color. 00:27:26.679 --> 00:27:27.527 Adams: Yes. 00:27:27.527 --> 00:27:28.177 Hackman: The tricky thing about race 00:27:28.177 --> 00:27:29.465 is you get on one plane 00:27:29.465 --> 00:27:30.830 and you fly eight, ten, twelve hours 00:27:30.830 --> 00:27:32.645 and you get off somewhere else, 00:27:32.645 --> 00:27:33.913 and skin color may or may not have 00:27:33.913 --> 00:27:36.499 any salience whatsoever. 00:27:36.499 --> 00:27:39.713 And so I start with this construction of race 00:27:39.713 --> 00:27:42.979 because it speaks to, why was it created? 00:27:42.979 --> 00:27:44.862 How do you explain the decadence 00:27:44.862 --> 00:27:47.800 between the ideals and the actions 00:27:47.800 --> 00:27:49.029 where does that come from? 00:27:49.029 --> 00:27:51.218 And in the process of doing that 00:27:51.218 --> 00:27:53.941 many most of the students in my classes or white. 00:27:53.941 --> 00:27:56.669 Most of the teachers I deal with in schools or white. 00:27:56.669 --> 00:27:59.532 They don't see themselves as racialized beings. 00:27:59.532 --> 00:28:02.413 Like white people think about race as all those folks. 00:28:02.413 --> 00:28:05.496 But the truth is white had to be created as well. 00:28:05.496 --> 00:28:07.730 So, you know, Europeans everyday 00:28:07.730 --> 00:28:10.708 Europeans didn't get on their boats, and say, [hand jester] 00:28:10.708 --> 00:28:11.982 come on let's go and be white. 00:28:11.982 --> 00:28:13.831 They didn't say that they came as 00:28:13.831 --> 00:28:15.729 Germans and French, Norwegians, and Swedes 00:28:15.729 --> 00:28:17.357 and whatever they got going on. 00:28:17.357 --> 00:28:19.846 And they get here, and the British power structure 00:28:19.846 --> 00:28:21.498 began to consolidate, consolidate, 00:28:21.498 --> 00:28:24.165 and saw that through class allegiance 00:28:24.165 --> 00:28:27.146 these white Europeans were actually 00:28:27.146 --> 00:28:29.214 chilling with these folks. 00:28:29.214 --> 00:28:30.715 Like you can't have that no,no,no,no,no,! 00:28:30.715 --> 00:28:32.779 Because you vastly out number me. 00:28:32.779 --> 00:28:34.316 You vastly out number me. 00:28:34.316 --> 00:28:37.430 I can't divide along class any more as we did in England 00:28:37.430 --> 00:28:38.814 because it's not quite working here. 00:28:38.814 --> 00:28:39.832 So what were going to do 00:28:39.832 --> 00:28:43.047 is create white, and were going to create race 00:28:43.047 --> 00:28:45.165 in the mid seventeenth century. 00:28:45.165 --> 00:28:47.099 Right around seventeen hundred in Virginia 00:28:47.099 --> 00:28:48.289 the Maryland documents, 00:28:48.289 --> 00:28:50.396 you actually start to see white codified. 00:28:50.396 --> 00:28:53.563 And so I'll let you live in this colony if you're white. 00:28:53.563 --> 00:28:54.781 Or I'll let you live in this state, 00:28:54.781 --> 00:28:56.333 or I'll let you have this job. 00:28:56.333 --> 00:28:57.765 You can do this thing if you start 00:28:57.765 --> 00:28:58.946 to swear allegiance to whiteness, 00:28:58.946 --> 00:29:01.613 and what that meant is, stop speaking German 00:29:01.613 --> 00:29:05.681 stop speaking Swedish, stop speaking French, and get all white! [hand jester] 00:29:05.681 --> 00:29:07.333 So, just get white will ya! 00:29:07.333 --> 00:29:08.848 And it didn't happen easily cause these folks, 00:29:08.848 --> 00:29:11.216 culture has such powerful meaning. 00:29:11.216 --> 00:29:12.983 Like I'm not going to get white! 00:29:12.983 --> 00:29:18.400 And yet, I've got five kids to feed... and so, alright maybe. 00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:19.165 So you can look at Chicago, 00:29:19.165 --> 00:29:20.332 in the meat packing factories in Chicago, 00:29:20.332 --> 00:29:22.562 and the Polish population in Chicago, 00:29:22.562 --> 00:29:24.748 and I'm sorry you can't speak your language, 00:29:24.748 --> 00:29:25.797 you can't act the way you are, 00:29:25.797 --> 00:29:28.055 you can't eat the food, you got to get white. 00:29:28.055 --> 00:29:30.361 And Henry Ford, and his plants in Detroit 00:29:30.361 --> 00:29:32.064 had classes were he taught 00:29:32.064 --> 00:29:33.450 European immigrants to assimilate 00:29:33.450 --> 00:29:35.963 to a white dominant standard in the US. 00:29:35.963 --> 00:29:39.285 Which was about speaking US standard dialect. 00:29:39.285 --> 00:29:41.448 Which was about dressing a certain way. 00:29:41.448 --> 00:29:44.918 Eating certain foods, engaging in certain moods 00:29:44.918 --> 00:29:46.780 of behavior with each other. 00:29:46.780 --> 00:29:49.243 Forming communities in very particular ways. 00:29:49.243 --> 00:29:51.483 He made his employees take classes on that 00:29:51.483 --> 00:29:54.167 so that they would assimilate. 00:29:54.167 --> 00:29:56.694 And so, what happened is... I, you know, 00:29:56.694 --> 00:29:58.652 these kind of Euro, many European folks 00:29:58.652 --> 00:30:01.772 coming over here had capitol "C" culture in tack, 00:30:01.772 --> 00:30:04.428 and they were told, [hand jester] give up "C" for "W." 00:30:04.428 --> 00:30:06.266 and if you get "W" then you'll have 00:30:06.266 --> 00:30:08.181 some of these benefits and privileges. 00:30:08.181 --> 00:30:09.749 But over a few generations [hand jester] 00:30:09.749 --> 00:30:13.114 "W" turns into "A"... the American dream! 00:30:13.114 --> 00:30:15.014 Because I got take job, and then I got to go to college, 00:30:15.014 --> 00:30:17.262 and then I got to pay that GI Bill house, 00:30:17.262 --> 00:30:18.715 and I got to do all that stuff. 00:30:18.715 --> 00:30:20.481 And so my [hand jester] "W" is an "A," 00:30:20.481 --> 00:30:23.834 and what it means to be an American is [hand jester] White! 00:30:23.834 --> 00:30:24.447 Adams: Yes. 00:30:24.447 --> 00:30:25.334 Hackman: But I don't know that 00:30:25.334 --> 00:30:26.500 I was never taught that 00:30:26.500 --> 00:30:28.466 I was just taught Americans is about freedom. 00:30:28.466 --> 00:30:31.767 But slowly over time that structure gets in place. 00:30:31.767 --> 00:30:34.166 So I use the construction of race 00:30:34.166 --> 00:30:37.132 not to help people see the fallacies of essentializing 00:30:37.132 --> 00:30:39.666 certain characteristics that students of color. 00:30:39.666 --> 00:30:42.333 But also to help them see the fallacy 00:30:42.333 --> 00:30:44.774 of essentializing certain things to whiteness. 00:30:44.774 --> 00:30:47.373 That white is inherently superior... it's like No! 00:30:47.373 --> 00:30:50.110 It's a game just like everything else. 00:30:50.110 --> 00:30:51.525 So, we move to a... once we get race 00:30:51.525 --> 00:30:54.082 then we move racism, then we talk about 00:30:54.082 --> 00:30:56.894 the construction of white privilege and white supremacy. 00:30:56.894 --> 00:30:58.364 And how if your going to look at 00:30:58.364 --> 00:31:00.217 racial justice as a whole in the US. 00:31:00.217 --> 00:31:02.431 You have to look at how racism targets folks of color. 00:31:02.431 --> 00:31:05.027 But you must look at white privilege, 00:31:05.027 --> 00:31:06.714 and white supremacy too. 00:31:06.714 --> 00:31:07.682 Cause it takes a lot of work 00:31:07.682 --> 00:31:08.765 to be racist... right? 00:31:08.765 --> 00:31:09.265 Adams: Um hum. 00:31:09.265 --> 00:31:11.399 Hackman: It's hard work! And so, 00:31:11.399 --> 00:31:12.833 Brown verses Board of Education 00:31:12.833 --> 00:31:15.500 May 17, 1954 the Supreme Court said: 00:31:15.500 --> 00:31:16.815 "Desegregate these schools." 00:31:16.815 --> 00:31:18.750 The macro power structure of whiteness said: 00:31:18.750 --> 00:31:20.384 Oh... no, no, no, no, no.. 00:31:20.384 --> 00:31:23.183 And so found a way to fly under the radar 00:31:23.183 --> 00:31:24.364 of a Supreme Court decision, 00:31:24.364 --> 00:31:27.834 and still in 2005, Jonathan Kozol's book 00:31:27.834 --> 00:31:30.409 "The Shame of the Nation" showed us that 00:31:30.409 --> 00:31:36.215 the racial segregation levels in US public schools in 2005 were equal to 1968. 00:31:36.215 --> 00:31:39.132 So, how do you do that, and not get sued... right! 00:31:39.132 --> 00:31:41.982 And so what we find is it takes an enormous amount 00:31:41.982 --> 00:31:44.302 of tricky work to maintain systems 00:31:44.302 --> 00:31:46.198 of racism and it begs the question why? 00:31:46.198 --> 00:31:48.601 And the reason why is because white people benefit. 00:31:48.601 --> 00:31:51.250 I benefit from a system pf privilege. 00:31:51.250 --> 00:31:53.668 I benefit from an ideology of supremacy 00:31:53.668 --> 00:31:56.600 that everywhere I go tells me I'm superior. 00:31:56.600 --> 00:31:59.483 And so that's... and that's last... right 00:31:59.483 --> 00:32:00.856 you can imagine why I have to put that last. 00:32:00.856 --> 00:32:03.649 But that's last, the last part of the conversation 00:32:03.649 --> 00:32:05.800 when we then begin to drill down 00:32:05.800 --> 00:32:09.299 at curriculum, policies, hiring practices 00:32:09.299 --> 00:32:11.516 really look at what happening in that district. 00:32:11.516 --> 00:32:14.300 Not only the ways that it marginalize people of color, 00:32:14.300 --> 00:32:17.768 but the ways that it serves white people, inordinately, you know, 00:32:17.768 --> 00:32:21.217 in disproportion, serves white people. 00:32:21.217 --> 00:32:26.732 And so that's... that is not a lovely conversation. 00:32:26.732 --> 00:32:28.235 Their not like... WOW I'm so glad 00:32:28.235 --> 00:32:29.450 I came to this workshop! 00:32:29.450 --> 00:32:30.444 Adams: Right, right! 00:32:30.444 --> 00:32:32.086 Hackman: That's not one that they thought that they signed up for. 00:32:32.086 --> 00:32:34.675 And yet, if we don't fundamentally address 00:32:34.675 --> 00:32:37.282 both sides of this, we will never 00:32:37.282 --> 00:32:39.934 get to racial equality in our schools... never. 00:32:39.934 --> 00:32:43.434 Adams: Yeah... very nicely done. 00:32:43.434 --> 00:32:50.274 What I'd like to do... to help them see that what was white in 1790, 00:32:50.274 --> 00:32:54.699 is not what we think white is in 2011. 00:32:54.699 --> 00:32:59.149 Who was American in the 18th, 19th century. 00:32:59.149 --> 00:33:01.565 Is not who American is now. 00:33:01.565 --> 00:33:04.169 Many of the groups that they come from 00:33:04.169 --> 00:33:05.984 would not have been considered white 00:33:05.984 --> 00:33:09.532 or American, and their just stunned 00:33:09.532 --> 00:33:13.633 their actually stunned by that, you know, 00:33:13.633 --> 00:33:16.494 so helping them process that, and see 00:33:16.494 --> 00:33:19.779 see... see that through a deconstruction 00:33:19.779 --> 00:33:21.684 is very powerful for them. 00:33:21.684 --> 00:33:23.251 And then they begin to understand 00:33:23.251 --> 00:33:26.901 oh this has been a struggle 00:33:26.901 --> 00:33:29.168 for identity throughout the history 00:33:29.168 --> 00:33:33.484 of this country, and it still is. 00:33:33.484 --> 00:33:35.734 So, you know, that part of it 00:33:35.734 --> 00:33:39.036 is very, very important as well. 00:33:39.036 --> 00:33:40.556 Mort people don't understand 00:33:40.556 --> 00:33:44.269 that up until relative recent times. 00:33:44.269 --> 00:33:46.117 The only way you can become nationalized 00:33:46.117 --> 00:33:48.385 as a citizen is if you are white. 00:33:48.385 --> 00:33:49.931 Hackman: Yeah. 00:33:49.931 --> 00:33:51.031 Adams: And so defining white 00:33:51.031 --> 00:33:54.500 was always essential as you know. 00:33:54.500 --> 00:33:58.767 Yeah, so that's a... that's a big one that's a tough one. 00:33:58.767 --> 00:34:02.966 The denial that you initially get from those conversations 00:34:02.966 --> 00:34:07.002 I find to be palatable, you know, 00:34:07.002 --> 00:34:09.752 so strategies for getting people 00:34:09.752 --> 00:34:12.024 to break through the denial. 00:34:12.024 --> 00:34:12.679 Hackman: Yeah! 00:34:12.679 --> 00:34:13.818 Adams: Do you have any good ones? 00:34:13.818 --> 00:34:15.711 Hackan: I... you know, one of the things 00:34:15.711 --> 00:34:17.386 I constantly say in teaching 00:34:17.386 --> 00:34:18.588 and training around issues of race. 00:34:18.588 --> 00:34:20.636 As a white person to other white people is 00:34:20.636 --> 00:34:24.363 we just don't even have time for guilt and shame. 00:34:24.363 --> 00:34:25.792 Now I know that every time 00:34:25.792 --> 00:34:26.631 this topic has come up 00:34:26.631 --> 00:34:27.753 in the past for you, 00:34:27.753 --> 00:34:29.302 you've probably been encouraged 00:34:29.302 --> 00:34:31.034 to feel guilt and shame. 00:34:31.034 --> 00:34:33.186 Or subtlety directed towards there 00:34:33.186 --> 00:34:34.601 or maybe just felt it cause 00:34:34.601 --> 00:34:35.735 you didn't know what else to do. 00:34:35.735 --> 00:34:38.077 And so what I do is I actually have some 00:34:38.077 --> 00:34:40.054 some curricular pieces that I use 00:34:40.054 --> 00:34:43.420 to help them understand that quilt and shame 00:34:43.420 --> 00:34:46.417 is actually a tool of the dominant structure. 00:34:46.417 --> 00:34:48.420 Because when you're guilty and shameful 00:34:48.420 --> 00:34:51.601 you just don't have a lot of energy to move. 00:34:51.601 --> 00:34:53.255 And so I'm very clear, 00:34:53.255 --> 00:34:56.603 and I have to say it again, and again to white students. 00:34:56.603 --> 00:34:58.253 No time for guilt and shame. 00:34:58.253 --> 00:34:59.808 Like if racism and whiteness 00:34:59.808 --> 00:35:01.552 is like a house on fire 00:35:01.552 --> 00:35:02.764 it doesn't do anybody any good 00:35:02.764 --> 00:35:03.852 to stand there and say 00:35:03.852 --> 00:35:06.287 I feel so bad about that house burning down. 00:35:06.287 --> 00:35:08.802 I'm so guilty about that house burning down. 00:35:08.802 --> 00:35:10.773 I've read books about the house burning down. 00:35:10.773 --> 00:35:12.035 I saw an important Oprah episode 00:35:12.035 --> 00:35:13.485 about the house burning down. 00:35:13.485 --> 00:35:14.186 Adams: [laughter] 00:35:14.186 --> 00:35:15.351 Hackman: You know, like while you're 00:35:15.351 --> 00:35:17.034 lamenting and feeling guilty 00:35:17.034 --> 00:35:18.920 the house is burning down. 00:35:18.920 --> 00:35:20.253 And so I get it, I totally get it. 00:35:20.253 --> 00:35:23.154 And so I usually look at my watch and say: 00:35:23.154 --> 00:35:25.736 "I'll give you 30 seconds to feel horrible...GO!" 00:35:25.736 --> 00:35:27.386 You know, and then I... beep, beep, you're DONE! 00:35:27.386 --> 00:35:28.720 Because what do we need to do 00:35:28.720 --> 00:35:30.320 we need to move to action. 00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:33.503 And also there isn't a little white pee-wee 00:35:33.503 --> 00:35:35.035 born in the United States who says: 00:35:35.035 --> 00:35:36.858 Yeah cut the cord, and clean me up, 00:35:36.858 --> 00:35:38.304 and I can't wait to be racist. 00:35:38.304 --> 00:35:40.402 Like it's a socialized process. 00:35:40.402 --> 00:35:42.694 It's something we socialize people into, 00:35:42.694 --> 00:35:48.640 and we know that because when we look at really young ones. 00:35:48.640 --> 00:35:49.587 Thankfully we can video tape this, 00:35:49.587 --> 00:35:51.969 and you get really clear evidence of it. 00:35:51.969 --> 00:35:53.511 Of course they notice a difference in skin color. 00:35:53.511 --> 00:35:56.309 They can make a differentiation among melanin. 00:35:56.309 --> 00:35:59.353 But there's no assigned meaning to it. 00:35:59.353 --> 00:36:02.935 So, they don't actually care, it's a noticing, but it's not a care. 00:36:02.935 --> 00:36:05.986 Then at different age levels depending on their exposure. 00:36:05.986 --> 00:36:09.823 You can see when suddenly it matters. 00:36:09.823 --> 00:36:12.369 Suddenly it matters, and I can't play with you or I can't play with you, 00:36:12.369 --> 00:36:13.589 or I can't hang out with you, 00:36:13.589 --> 00:36:14.880 and you don't live in my neighborhood 00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:16.331 and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 00:36:16.331 --> 00:36:18.589 And so the signing of that meeting happens, 00:36:18.589 --> 00:36:22.457 but those children didn't ask for that to happen. 00:36:22.457 --> 00:36:25.451 And so another piece that I use to address that is resistance. 00:36:25.451 --> 00:36:27.972 Is to say, I know, that whatever you put 00:36:27.972 --> 00:36:29.641 at the bottom of your value tree 00:36:29.641 --> 00:36:30.590 is really powerful stuff. 00:36:30.590 --> 00:36:32.251 I'm willing to bet that white supremacy, 00:36:32.251 --> 00:36:34.234 and racism are not there. 00:36:34.234 --> 00:36:38.002 And so what I know about you, is that you're good people 00:36:38.002 --> 00:36:41.005 and what I know about you, you've been miseducation, 00:36:41.005 --> 00:36:44.100 and led astray, from your core values. 00:36:44.100 --> 00:36:46.064 So my invitation to you 00:36:46.064 --> 00:36:48.547 is to come back to your core values. 00:36:48.547 --> 00:36:51.691 Let who you say you are and want to be in the world, 00:36:51.691 --> 00:36:54.223 match up with who you actually are. 00:36:54.223 --> 00:36:56.804 Because coming into focus like that as a white person 00:36:56.804 --> 00:37:00.255 is a profound experience morally, 00:37:00.255 --> 00:37:04.571 ethically, spiritually, intellectually it's an amazing moment. 00:37:04.571 --> 00:37:05.988 But this system of whiteness 00:37:05.988 --> 00:37:08.021 in order to get you to be complicit. 00:37:08.021 --> 00:37:10.638 The system of racism, in order to get you to be complicit, 00:37:10.638 --> 00:37:13.340 has moved you so far away 00:37:13.340 --> 00:37:15.889 through miseducation, and bad socialization 00:37:15.889 --> 00:37:19.176 that it has harmed you, it has harmed you 00:37:19.176 --> 00:37:22.438 and so it's time to come home to your core values. 00:37:22.438 --> 00:37:26.256 Adams: That's...that's nice, I pick on the Christians a lot. 00:37:26.256 --> 00:37:26.889 Hackman: [laughter] 00:37:26.889 --> 00:37:29.654 Adams: Well, cause their so plentiful for one. 00:37:29.654 --> 00:37:30.588 Hackman: There are quite a few 00:37:30.588 --> 00:37:32.059 in the United States... sure yeah! 00:37:32.059 --> 00:37:35.372 Adams: But basically, once again, the very foundation 00:37:35.372 --> 00:37:37.721 of being a Christian is just what you were talking about 00:37:37.721 --> 00:37:39.526 that you have these strong set of core values. 00:37:39.526 --> 00:37:41.422 And so then what I want to do 00:37:41.422 --> 00:37:44.105 is to take them back to seventeen hundreds. 00:37:44.105 --> 00:37:44.840 Hackman: Yeah. 00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:46.896 Adams: Okay, and so, let's try to understand 00:37:46.896 --> 00:37:49.054 how you can be Christian, and own slaves? 00:37:49.054 --> 00:37:53.831 Okay, then once we establish that, let's understand 00:37:53.831 --> 00:37:59.140 how these Quakers, become conscious, of the fact that, 00:37:59.140 --> 00:38:03.619 you know, I don't think I can get to heaven owning slaves. 00:38:03.619 --> 00:38:09.507 And! Not only can I get there... okay... I must act. 00:38:09.507 --> 00:38:12.537 I can't just say I don't like this stuff. 00:38:12.537 --> 00:38:15.237 But I've got to put those beliefs now in action. 00:38:15.237 --> 00:38:18.906 What would that take during those time periods, 00:38:18.906 --> 00:38:22.239 you know, entire eighteenth century 00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:24.905 almost the entire nineteenth century, 00:38:24.905 --> 00:38:28.058 you know, and stuff, and these people are saying 00:38:28.058 --> 00:38:30.960 are railing against this sin. 00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:31.634 Hackman: Yeah. 00:38:31.634 --> 00:38:33.298 Adams: And so then we kind of, [hand jester] you know, 00:38:33.298 --> 00:38:35.508 once again we got to look at Christianity. 00:38:35.508 --> 00:38:37.828 What does that mean then to have 00:38:37.828 --> 00:38:41.873 this faith, this belief, that I believe in so powerfully 00:38:41.873 --> 00:38:46.572 act on behalf of this institution of slavery, 00:38:46.572 --> 00:38:49.305 and boy that's fun. 00:38:49.305 --> 00:38:49.950 Hackman: Yeah. 00:38:49.950 --> 00:38:54.527 Adams: That's a real come to Jesus for a lot of them... okay. 00:38:54.527 --> 00:38:56.486 And... and that's what we have to do. 00:38:56.486 --> 00:38:58.122 And of course, I don't just pick on the Christians 00:38:58.122 --> 00:38:59.708 anybody else who's there 00:38:59.708 --> 00:39:00.788 will find something for them too. 00:39:00.788 --> 00:39:02.556 [laughter] 00:39:02.556 --> 00:39:05.008 Adams:But we have a lot of Christians, 00:39:05.008 --> 00:39:08.572 and they haven't had to ask that question. 00:39:08.572 --> 00:39:10.673 They haven't had to have that conversation. 00:39:10.673 --> 00:39:13.853 There is some real interesting new material 00:39:13.853 --> 00:39:17.190 out that looks at the role of religion and slavery. 00:39:17.190 --> 00:39:20.975 There's one scene in particular, in which, 00:39:20.975 --> 00:39:26.539 the Christians actually met above an auction block. 00:39:26.539 --> 00:39:29.621 And so you have the cells, in which, 00:39:29.621 --> 00:39:30.957 the slaves were being held. 00:39:30.957 --> 00:39:35.258 Their upstairs praying, having service, 00:39:35.258 --> 00:39:37.894 and they can hear the wales 00:39:37.894 --> 00:39:40.443 of the chattel beneath them. 00:39:40.443 --> 00:39:46.155 How do you reconcile? How is that possible? 00:39:46.155 --> 00:39:49.681 And... and so we have to also see 00:39:49.681 --> 00:39:51.069 along with the political piece 00:39:51.069 --> 00:39:53.286 how that religious piece works. 00:39:53.286 --> 00:39:53.924 Hackman: Yeah. 00:39:53.924 --> 00:39:55.592 Adams: As we alluded to earlier. 00:39:55.592 --> 00:39:58.975 How the science works to justify that 00:39:58.975 --> 00:40:02.747 because in order to create that thing called race 00:40:02.747 --> 00:40:04.789 we needed all those powerful structures 00:40:04.789 --> 00:40:09.641 working cohesively together, to... to create the amnesia. 00:40:09.641 --> 00:40:10.274 Hackman: Right. 00:40:10.274 --> 00:40:14.559 One of the things to... to tag onto that is. 00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:17.093 I try to make a distinction between 00:40:17.093 --> 00:40:21.618 christian hegemony, and the value set humans feel. 00:40:21.618 --> 00:40:25.008 Because there are a lot of Christians in my class. 00:40:25.008 --> 00:40:27.656 St. Cloud State is in central Minnesota. 00:40:27.656 --> 00:40:29.143 So there's a lot of white students 00:40:29.143 --> 00:40:31.592 who also happen to identify as Christian. 00:40:31.592 --> 00:40:34.708 And that first approach is like, woe! [hand jester] 00:40:34.708 --> 00:40:37.806 Now your not suppose assail my religion. 00:40:37.806 --> 00:40:39.838 I'm like, I'm not actually, what I'm talking about is a 00:40:39.838 --> 00:40:43.147 power structure of christian hegemony in the US. 00:40:43.147 --> 00:40:45.308 I talk about how christian hegemony 00:40:45.308 --> 00:40:48.974 it's an interesting kind of threesome here. 00:40:48.974 --> 00:40:53.241 With class supremacy and white supremacy, 00:40:53.241 --> 00:40:55.943 and thee way that those three work together 00:40:55.943 --> 00:40:58.124 to constantly offset each other. 00:40:58.124 --> 00:41:00.288 And so when you try to press on one 00:41:00.288 --> 00:41:02.352 then you get the other two squeezing in there. 00:41:02.352 --> 00:41:05.920 It's, it's remarkable, remarkable kind of pairing. 00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:06.807 Adams: Good joojoo! 00:41:06.807 --> 00:41:08.483 Hackman: Yeah! It's remarkable way, 00:41:08.483 --> 00:41:11.142 like if it wasn't so completely devastating 00:41:11.142 --> 00:41:13.819 to so many, you know, tens of millions of people. 00:41:13.819 --> 00:41:15.509 What you could look at and say, 00:41:15.509 --> 00:41:17.941 that's a pretty elegant design, of the way 00:41:17.941 --> 00:41:19.358 the three of them interact. 00:41:19.358 --> 00:41:21.342 And so, you can't talk about race in the US, 00:41:21.342 --> 00:41:23.358 without talking about the structure 00:41:23.358 --> 00:41:25.309 of christian hegemony, you just can't do it. 00:41:25.309 --> 00:41:27.426 Or class it's very difficult to do that. 00:41:27.426 --> 00:41:31.176 Adams: Yeah and together boy what do they spawn 00:41:31.176 --> 00:41:33.892 and the offshoots of it, of course, 00:41:33.892 --> 00:41:35.375 around the rest of the planet to, 00:41:35.375 --> 00:41:40.093 because the whole genetics, eugenics piece, oh my goodness. 00:41:40.093 --> 00:41:45.486 We see the awesome manifestation of it, in Hitlers Germany. 00:41:45.486 --> 00:41:46.260 Hackman: Yes, absolutely. 00:41:46.260 --> 00:41:48.275 Adams: So, if you want to play those kind of games 00:41:48.275 --> 00:41:50.574 let's see how then that plays out... okay. 00:41:50.574 --> 00:41:55.801 Because here's the width and breathe... and that's sad. 00:41:55.801 --> 00:41:57.491 Hackman: Yeah! 00:41:57.491 --> 00:41:59.983 Adams: Incredibly, incredibly sad. 00:41:59.983 --> 00:42:01.647 But when you play those games 00:42:01.647 --> 00:42:05.809 of creating the other, then that's the by-product. 00:42:05.809 --> 00:42:08.644 The by-product is, I can take 60 million people 00:42:08.644 --> 00:42:12.320 from your Continent, take them on this aweful passage, 00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:16.458 we can lose 20, 30, percent of them, 00:42:16.458 --> 00:42:18.824 and it's just a business lost. 00:42:18.824 --> 00:42:21.075 It's not really lives being lost. 00:42:21.075 --> 00:42:25.267 It's just property, okay, so that takes 00:42:25.267 --> 00:42:30.221 powerful forces, powerful, powerful forces,. 00:42:30.221 --> 00:42:31.958 Let's talk about empathy. 00:42:31.958 --> 00:42:32.643 Hackman: Alright! 00:42:32.643 --> 00:42:36.510 Adams: Yeah! I've given end to empathy. 00:42:36.510 --> 00:42:40.621 It seems to me... it's that cohesive fabric 00:42:40.621 --> 00:42:44.658 that we have that's part of being human, 00:42:44.658 --> 00:42:47.725 that we all have, we all posses it. 00:42:47.725 --> 00:42:50.475 I mean it's one of those things that are at birth. 00:42:50.475 --> 00:42:53.460 But as you were talking about something happens 00:42:53.460 --> 00:42:54.920 in the socialization process 00:42:54.920 --> 00:42:57.507 in which we rip empathy. 00:42:57.507 --> 00:43:00.644 That we only have it for certain classes of people, 00:43:00.644 --> 00:43:02.026 or certain kinds of things and stuff. 00:43:02.026 --> 00:43:05.738 Now we have great empathy for our dogs and cats. 00:43:05.738 --> 00:43:09.324 You know, when I see a dog or a cat in a Mercedes Benz. 00:43:09.324 --> 00:43:11.993 I call it a Buddha cat or a Buddha dog. 00:43:11.993 --> 00:43:13.595 Cause it must be a high reincarnation, 00:43:13.595 --> 00:43:16.125 you know, I mean, to be able to get that kind of luxury. 00:43:16.125 --> 00:43:19.327 But we do amazing things for our pets. 00:43:19.327 --> 00:43:19.827 Hackman: Yeah! 00:43:19.827 --> 00:43:22.308 Adams: That we won't do for our fellow human beings. 00:43:22.308 --> 00:43:22.975 Hackman: Yeah! 00:43:22.975 --> 00:43:24.421 Adams You know, so something is happen 00:43:24.421 --> 00:43:26.574 to that empathy that is naturally there, 00:43:26.574 --> 00:43:30.632 that is part of our process of being human 00:43:30.632 --> 00:43:32.408 that can somehow get's torn, 00:43:32.408 --> 00:43:37.968 through racism, or classism, or sexism, or homophobia. 00:43:37.968 --> 00:43:42.417 Hackman: I, you know, I... it's a... kind of a number 00:43:42.417 --> 00:43:45.591 of answers to this, so I'll try to sort them out. 00:43:45.591 --> 00:43:47.882 I do think that exactly what we were describing 00:43:47.882 --> 00:43:50.404 is that there is a split, you know, 00:43:50.404 --> 00:43:52.893 to go to church in the morning 00:43:52.893 --> 00:43:54.070 in the white South. 00:43:54.070 --> 00:43:55.394 And then to go to a lynching 00:43:55.394 --> 00:43:57.228 with your family that afternoon 00:43:57.228 --> 00:43:57.728 Adams: Picnic! 00:43:57.728 --> 00:43:58.581 Hackman: as entertainment. 00:43:58.581 --> 00:43:59.960 Adams: Picnic! 00:43:59.960 --> 00:44:01.592 Hackman: Requires, exactly, requires 00:44:01.592 --> 00:44:03.338 something to be torn away. 00:44:03.338 --> 00:44:07.199 And... and it's difficult to collude 00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:09.180 with oppression while your busy being 00:44:09.180 --> 00:44:10.978 empathetic to the group that you're with. 00:44:10.978 --> 00:44:12.785 So one of the components of oppression, 00:44:12.785 --> 00:44:15.310 is it strips away the dominant groups 00:44:15.310 --> 00:44:16.930 ability to do that for sure. 00:44:16.930 --> 00:44:19.827 But i also think... I've been doing some workshops 00:44:19.827 --> 00:44:22.692 with a colleague up in Minneapolis 00:44:22.692 --> 00:44:24.594 entitled "More Than Skin Deep 00:44:24.594 --> 00:44:25.989 Dismantling White Supremacy 00:44:25.989 --> 00:44:27.261 One Cell At A Time." 00:44:27.261 --> 00:44:30.698 And she and I are kind of moving into looking at 00:44:30.698 --> 00:44:33.103 in addition to lots of ways of looking at issues 00:44:33.103 --> 00:44:34.898 of race and racism that I've already discribed. 00:44:34.898 --> 00:44:37.396 Looking at the issue of trauma, 00:44:37.396 --> 00:44:40.528 and Dr. Joy DeGruy talks about, you know, 00:44:40.528 --> 00:44:43.782 post-traumatic slave syndrome in her book, 00:44:43.782 --> 00:44:47.845 and What does that mean, and how have white folks 00:44:47.845 --> 00:44:50.264 been traumatized by the structures 00:44:50.264 --> 00:44:51.876 of racism and white supremacy. 00:44:51.876 --> 00:44:54.493 And let me be very clear, I'm not equalizing 00:44:54.493 --> 00:44:57.895 in this moment, and so the one way 00:44:57.895 --> 00:45:00.209 that super-whitey can recenter itself 00:45:00.209 --> 00:45:03.319 is to say, oh yeah, I've been hurt by racism to 00:45:03.319 --> 00:45:04.519 so it must go both ways. 00:45:04.519 --> 00:45:05.861 No! it doesn't [hand jester] 00:45:05.861 --> 00:45:07.229 let me be very clear about that. 00:45:07.229 --> 00:45:11.200 However, what allows white people to have that split? 00:45:11.200 --> 00:45:13.711 What allows me to turn away? 00:45:13.711 --> 00:45:16.310 What allows me to say, oh no, I was just joking? 00:45:16.310 --> 00:45:18.729 You know, what gets in the way of me being able 00:45:18.729 --> 00:45:20.210 to meet you with my heart? 00:45:20.210 --> 00:45:23.562 And so were exploring this idea of trauma, 00:45:23.562 --> 00:45:27.512 and how, you know, kind of core survival responses 00:45:27.512 --> 00:45:30.763 get triggered in a racist environment. 00:45:30.763 --> 00:45:33.796 For folks of color those core survival responses 00:45:33.796 --> 00:45:38.461 are such that, it, it creates this constant level of stress. 00:45:38.461 --> 00:45:39.929 Which if you look at the you know 00:45:39.929 --> 00:45:42.062 National Health Care Disparities report 00:45:42.062 --> 00:45:44.063 that just came out this year... 2010. 00:45:44.063 --> 00:45:46.367 You can see that even when you 00:45:46.367 --> 00:45:48.578 mitigated for class communities of color 00:45:48.578 --> 00:45:50.181 have higher rates of heart disease, 00:45:50.181 --> 00:45:54.562 higher risk of death, blah, blah, blah,... than white people. 00:45:54.562 --> 00:45:56.779 So it's not just access to insurance. 00:45:56.779 --> 00:45:59.063 Because when you get class out of the way, 00:45:59.063 --> 00:46:00.745 you get insurance out of the way, 00:46:00.745 --> 00:46:02.629 racism is having a physical toil 00:46:02.629 --> 00:46:04.163 on the people of color. 00:46:04.163 --> 00:46:05.830 And so what we get to see is that it does 00:46:05.830 --> 00:46:07.496 have physical manifestation. 00:46:07.496 --> 00:46:10.423 So what are the physical manifestation for white people. 00:46:10.423 --> 00:46:12.948 It's a tearing of our humanity. 00:46:12.948 --> 00:46:15.674 What does that do? What does that do? 00:46:15.674 --> 00:46:18.079 And so were exploring through kind of looking 00:46:18.079 --> 00:46:21.329 at mechanism of trauma, and survival responses. 00:46:21.329 --> 00:46:24.065 How have white folks been socialized, 00:46:24.065 --> 00:46:25.712 and traumatized in such a way by race 00:46:25.712 --> 00:46:30.814 that I have been deluded to think that my survival, [hand jester] 00:46:30.814 --> 00:46:33.689 depends on maintaining racism and whiteness. 00:46:33.689 --> 00:46:36.264 When in point in fact, this system is killing me. 00:46:36.264 --> 00:46:39.697 It's killing you, it's killing all of us, in this society . 00:46:39.697 --> 00:46:42.564 And so getting down to deeper 00:46:42.564 --> 00:46:44.690 causes and conditions biological, 00:46:44.690 --> 00:46:48.169 physiological causes and conditions 00:46:48.169 --> 00:46:50.553 of racism in white people. 00:46:50.553 --> 00:46:52.927 Is one pathway to begin to explore 00:46:52.927 --> 00:46:54.858 what have I lost in my ability 00:46:54.858 --> 00:46:56.886 to engage in the moment. 00:46:56.886 --> 00:46:58.956 That kind of trauma explanation 00:46:58.956 --> 00:47:00.447 helps us to understand why you can have 00:47:00.447 --> 00:47:02.414 very well educated white people 00:47:02.414 --> 00:47:04.099 I've read everything about white privilege, 00:47:04.099 --> 00:47:06.191 in fact, I teach a class on white privilege. 00:47:06.191 --> 00:47:08.254 I'm sitting in a meeting, you know, 00:47:08.254 --> 00:47:09.765 a department meeting or something, 00:47:09.765 --> 00:47:13.164 and some racist comment goes down and I freeze. 00:47:13.164 --> 00:47:15.366 So here I am... like this big [mouth jester] 00:47:15.366 --> 00:47:18.399 about whiteness. And yet this moment comes, 00:47:18.399 --> 00:47:21.065 and I panic, and I freeze, and so 00:47:21.065 --> 00:47:22.796 the trauma piece explains that 00:47:22.796 --> 00:47:24.314 because trauma is in the frog brain, 00:47:24.314 --> 00:47:26.369 survival responses are back here [hand jester] 00:47:26.369 --> 00:47:28.016 and all my reading is up hear ][hand jester]. 00:47:28.016 --> 00:47:30.049 And then those terrifying moments, 00:47:30.049 --> 00:47:32.349 tense moments, I go [hand jester] back here. 00:47:32.349 --> 00:47:34.623 And so the trauma piece helps us 00:47:34.623 --> 00:47:37.182 not resocialize, and re-educate 00:47:37.182 --> 00:47:42.066 in just this way, but it helps us to reach back to the lie 00:47:42.066 --> 00:47:44.290 that my survival really depends 00:47:44.290 --> 00:47:46.264 on maintaining racism and whiteness, 00:47:46.264 --> 00:47:48.493 and you can rewire that too. 00:47:48.493 --> 00:47:50.380 We can rewire how we've been 00:47:50.380 --> 00:47:51.997 brought up as white people. 00:47:51.997 --> 00:47:55.364 And that will allow me to more effectively 00:47:55.364 --> 00:47:58.150 work in the service of ending racism.. 00:47:58.150 --> 00:47:59.581 Because in those tense moments 00:47:59.581 --> 00:48:01.532 I'll not only have some information to bear, 00:48:01.532 --> 00:48:04.101 but I'll have checked myself, and I'll stay in the room. 00:48:04.101 --> 00:48:04.771 Adams: Yeah. 00:48:04.771 --> 00:48:08.914 Hackman: And I'll say woe, look I'm freaking out... don't leave. 00:48:08.914 --> 00:48:10.747 Instead I'll say something. 00:48:10.747 --> 00:48:11.932 Adams: What immediately came to mind 00:48:11.932 --> 00:48:15.469 when you articulated that was. 00:48:15.469 --> 00:48:20.134 The absolute discomfort that affirmative action 00:48:20.134 --> 00:48:22.831 has for white people. 00:48:22.831 --> 00:48:24.733 They can get five minutes of it, 00:48:24.733 --> 00:48:28.509 and be screaming... okay. 00:48:28.509 --> 00:48:31.317 But oppressed groups, people of color, women, and so forth 00:48:31.317 --> 00:48:34.633 had to endure it for hundreds of years. 00:48:34.633 --> 00:48:41.185 Five minutes, they freak out, this is totally un-just... Yes! 00:48:41.185 --> 00:48:45.148 Hackman: Yeah... well I think there's a couple pieces 00:48:45.148 --> 00:48:46.031 about affirmative action. 00:48:46.031 --> 00:48:48.766 One is I get to look at, go to the Bureau of Labor, 00:48:48.766 --> 00:48:49.899 and look at the stats around, 00:48:49.899 --> 00:48:51.017 and the primary beneficiaries 00:48:51.017 --> 00:48:52.929 of affirmative legislation has been 00:48:52.929 --> 00:48:54.195 middle-class white women, 00:48:54.195 --> 00:48:55.862 have not people of color. 00:48:55.862 --> 00:48:58.575 So while I'm all jacked up about [hand jester] wah, wah, wah, wah. 00:48:58.575 --> 00:49:01.187 I got my job because of affirmative action. 00:49:01.187 --> 00:49:02.767 So, I have to be honest about that. 00:49:02.767 --> 00:49:06.183 The second piece though is to complicate 00:49:06.183 --> 00:49:08.045 the understanding of affirmative action. 00:49:08.045 --> 00:49:09.662 Such that I put white privilege, 00:49:09.662 --> 00:49:12.066 and white supremacy into the equation. 00:49:12.066 --> 00:49:12.984 And I have students do a race, 00:49:12.984 --> 00:49:14.522 and cultural analysis paper. 00:49:14.522 --> 00:49:16.017 And I say, well tell me where your family came from, 00:49:16.017 --> 00:49:17.816 what's your capitol "C" culture, 00:49:17.816 --> 00:49:18.814 what you got going on there? 00:49:18.814 --> 00:49:19.658 And their like, uh... I don't know, 00:49:19.658 --> 00:49:21.318 but then they dig around, and they go back, 00:49:21.318 --> 00:49:23.110 and they realize that, you know their... their 00:49:23.110 --> 00:49:25.638 half German, and their German great, great, 00:49:25.638 --> 00:49:27.363 grand parents came to Iowa, 00:49:27.363 --> 00:49:31.216 and farmed 8 days a week for 40 hours a day, 00:49:31.216 --> 00:49:33.066 you know, it snowed all year round then, 00:49:33.066 --> 00:49:35.410 and it was horrible, you know, all this struggle, 00:49:35.410 --> 00:49:36.567 and this and that. 00:49:36.567 --> 00:49:38.673 Or lest say it was in Minnesota, 00:49:38.673 --> 00:49:41.839 and they got this farm in 1862. 00:49:41.839 --> 00:49:44.281 And I say, on my feedback, 00:49:44.281 --> 00:49:46.685 what happened in 1862 do you think? 00:49:46.685 --> 00:49:48.603 What happened was, you know, 00:49:48.603 --> 00:49:50.483 in this State of Minnesota, is that, varies governors 00:49:50.483 --> 00:49:53.799 just took all this land wanted to make sure 00:49:53.799 --> 00:49:56.166 it populated quickly with white people, and so 00:49:56.166 --> 00:49:58.667 sold it at basement prices... right. 00:49:58.667 --> 00:49:59.900 And so then you ask the question 00:49:59.900 --> 00:50:01.433 how did your family get that farm 00:50:01.433 --> 00:50:02.799 with no money as immigrants 00:50:02.799 --> 00:50:05.466 that's an amazing trick... like 00:50:05.466 --> 00:50:08.035 tell me how that works, and I might, you know, get into that. 00:50:08.035 --> 00:50:11.340 Then what they identify is, well this happened. 00:50:11.340 --> 00:50:13.390 I'm like, well who's land was it? well how did that happen? 00:50:13.390 --> 00:50:16.231 As you trace the history back, I start to see 00:50:16.231 --> 00:50:17.821 that everything that I've got 00:50:17.821 --> 00:50:20.734 comes as a result of affirmative action at the hands of 00:50:20.734 --> 00:50:22.482 white privilege, and white supremacy, 00:50:22.482 --> 00:50:25.017 and so there's a way that we take the legislation 00:50:25.017 --> 00:50:28.722 out of the small niche of that, and broaden it, so that 00:50:28.722 --> 00:50:31.233 white people have to really become responsible. 00:50:31.233 --> 00:50:32.666 Again, not guilty and shameful 00:50:32.666 --> 00:50:33.851 that's not terrible useful. 00:50:33.851 --> 00:50:37.151 But what would it mean if I'm responsible around it? 00:50:37.151 --> 00:50:38.520 What would it mean? 00:50:38.520 --> 00:50:40.069 Maybe it means I give the land back. 00:50:40.069 --> 00:50:45.703 There's a great book by Dr. Waziyatawin who 00:50:45.703 --> 00:50:48.250 the title of the book is "What Does Justice Look Like." 00:50:48.250 --> 00:50:50.998 And her suggestion as an indigenous women in Minnesota. 00:50:50.998 --> 00:50:53.769 Is give all the state land back. 00:50:53.769 --> 00:50:55.251 Every state park give it back, 00:50:55.251 --> 00:50:56.683 but before you give it back, 00:50:56.683 --> 00:50:58.179 you need to clean it up! 00:50:58.179 --> 00:50:59.551 You got to return it in the condition 00:50:59.551 --> 00:51:00.882 that you found it... right! 00:51:00.882 --> 00:51:01.583 Adams: Nice! 00:51:01.583 --> 00:51:04.568 Hackman: And so, give it back! Give those 11 million acres back. 00:51:04.568 --> 00:51:08.129 I think to myself... that's not a bad idea actually. 00:51:08.129 --> 00:51:10.215 It's not a bad idea, it's about making a mends, 00:51:10.215 --> 00:51:12.168 and so when the United States Congress 00:51:12.168 --> 00:51:15.371 was about to, you know, pass some kind of resolution 00:51:15.371 --> 00:51:17.169 not a law or anything, but a resolution. 00:51:17.169 --> 00:51:19.069 I think it was toward the Turkish government 00:51:19.069 --> 00:51:20.735 about Armenian Genocide. 00:51:20.735 --> 00:51:24.051 The European press said, you know, "It's fascinating 00:51:24.051 --> 00:51:25.606 that your concerned about genocide, 00:51:25.606 --> 00:51:28.553 you know, were just curious, what are you doing about, 00:51:28.553 --> 00:51:30.250 you know, American Indian Genocide?" 00:51:30.250 --> 00:51:32.652 And quickly congress said... well we don't have time 00:51:32.652 --> 00:51:33.750 to talk about that right now, you know, 00:51:33.750 --> 00:51:35.486 and they dropped it! They dropped it! 00:51:35.486 --> 00:51:38.415 And so it does it begs the question of 00:51:38.415 --> 00:51:39.536 when we learn the true history 00:51:39.536 --> 00:51:40.885 what do we do about it? 00:51:40.885 --> 00:51:41.852 And more than just apologizing 00:51:41.852 --> 00:51:44.772 we have the capacity, as a white dominant society 00:51:44.772 --> 00:51:47.001 to make amends, and set it right. 00:51:47.001 --> 00:51:48.036 Adams: Hard for us! 00:51:48.036 --> 00:51:48.937 Hackman: Yeah! 00:51:48.937 --> 00:51:55.701 Adams: You know, hard for us. 00:51:55.701 --> 00:51:59.414 So much to talk about let, let's go 00:51:59.414 --> 00:52:01.586 a little bit back to the P12's, 00:52:01.586 --> 00:52:07.018 and talk about children, and what messages 00:52:07.018 --> 00:52:10.790 we need to be sending to them as early as possible. 00:52:10.790 --> 00:52:13.454 One about getting the history straight. 00:52:13.454 --> 00:52:16.517 And then second their responsibility 00:52:16.517 --> 00:52:18.417 to live a life that has social justice 00:52:18.417 --> 00:52:19.170 Hackman: Yeah. 00:52:19.170 --> 00:52:24.224 Adams: as a core value? How do we do that one? 00:52:24.224 --> 00:52:27.443 Hackman: Um... I think it's more than just a... 00:52:27.443 --> 00:52:29.770 some kind of a casual kum ba yah type of mements. 00:52:29.770 --> 00:52:31.994 I think it's really more about 00:52:31.994 --> 00:52:36.800 embedding care, and concern for others, 00:52:36.800 --> 00:52:40.754 and not just [hand jester] kind of, I like you. 00:52:40.754 --> 00:52:43.085 But care and concern as we understand 00:52:43.085 --> 00:52:44.419 the relationship to resources, 00:52:44.419 --> 00:52:47.552 and as we understand the relationship to community. 00:52:47.552 --> 00:52:50.271 Deeply embed that in the ways 00:52:50.271 --> 00:52:53.001 that we engage with young people in society. 00:52:53.001 --> 00:52:57.001 And so what that produces then is a hunger 00:52:57.001 --> 00:53:00.973 for justice, more than the seductive 00:53:00.973 --> 00:53:03.021 privileges of oppression. 00:53:03.021 --> 00:53:06.535 And so if we can embed those kinds of principles 00:53:06.535 --> 00:53:09.150 in early education, and I often say, 00:53:09.150 --> 00:53:10.987 cause I think there's a little bit of bias 00:53:10.987 --> 00:53:13.688 in P12, were secondary folks are like 00:53:13.688 --> 00:53:16.529 WELL [hand jester] REAL EDUCATION HAPPENS IN HIGH SCHOOL! 00:53:16.529 --> 00:53:17.653 You know, and their like yeah! 00:53:17.653 --> 00:53:19.760 My analogy to that is that would be like saying 00:53:19.760 --> 00:53:21.771 eat McDonald's until ninth grade. 00:53:21.771 --> 00:53:23.896 Like subsist on nothing but McDonald's, 00:53:23.896 --> 00:53:26.320 and then worry about your diet when your fourteen. 00:53:26.320 --> 00:53:28.892 Like, you'll be five hundred pounds with heart disease 00:53:28.892 --> 00:53:32.003 a fourteen year old, and so that's ridiculous. 00:53:32.003 --> 00:53:33.691 We need to worry about it from the get go. 00:53:33.691 --> 00:53:35.423 We need to worry about these issues, 00:53:35.423 --> 00:53:37.456 about how to deeply, and thoughtfully, and critically 00:53:37.456 --> 00:53:39.254 educate young people from the get go. 00:53:39.254 --> 00:53:42.137 And those are about, not just about care 00:53:42.137 --> 00:53:43.855 in a white liberal sense. 00:53:43.855 --> 00:53:47.633 White liberalism is were, I feel so bad for those people. 00:53:47.633 --> 00:53:49.621 I'm gonna go save those people. 00:53:49.621 --> 00:53:51.105 Instead what were doing is were recognizing 00:53:51.105 --> 00:53:56.539 that my core humanity, is directly tied to yours. 00:53:56.539 --> 00:53:57.871 We are in this boat together, 00:53:57.871 --> 00:54:01.072 so what happens to you does happen to me. 00:54:01.072 --> 00:54:03.237 We engender that with young people 00:54:03.237 --> 00:54:05.338 with deeper conversations about 00:54:05.338 --> 00:54:08.003 social responsibility, about different ways 00:54:08.003 --> 00:54:10.859 of shaping community, and inter, and being interdependent. 00:54:10.859 --> 00:54:13.486 Not independent, but interdependent. 00:54:13.486 --> 00:54:15.255 We start to ask questions about resources. 00:54:15.255 --> 00:54:18.356 I'm not going to give a kindergartner a lecture on 00:54:18.356 --> 00:54:21.369 multinational corporations and, you know, 00:54:21.369 --> 00:54:22.855 class structure in the United States. 00:54:22.855 --> 00:54:27.485 I am going to say: If everybody has enough everybody does better. 00:54:27.485 --> 00:54:29.905 Everybody does better when we all do better. 00:54:29.905 --> 00:54:31.737 And now I'm going to get critics 00:54:31.737 --> 00:54:33.456 your a communist, I'm not saying 00:54:33.456 --> 00:54:35.777 that social justice education doesn't say 00:54:35.777 --> 00:54:37.387 everybody's got to have the same. 00:54:37.387 --> 00:54:39.771 It says: Everybody needs to have enough to be okay. 00:54:39.771 --> 00:54:41.737 Then if you want your big mansion 00:54:41.737 --> 00:54:43.655 I guess you can have that, that's fine. 00:54:43.655 --> 00:54:45.867 But not at the expense of some schools 00:54:45.867 --> 00:54:47.640 not having books in their schools. 00:54:47.640 --> 00:54:48.994 It's totally unacceptable, 00:54:48.994 --> 00:54:51.092 and it's an uncivilized way to live. 00:54:51.092 --> 00:54:52.753 And so let's find an humane base line. 00:54:52.753 --> 00:54:54.288 Everybody can take books home. 00:54:54.288 --> 00:54:56.575 Everybody can you know blah, blah, blah, blah , blah. 00:54:56.575 --> 00:54:57.872 And then anything above that, 00:54:57.872 --> 00:54:59.857 if you can achieve that go right ahead. 00:54:59.857 --> 00:55:02.940 But we will never have success in this society 00:55:02.940 --> 00:55:05.504 at the expense of the base humanity of other people. 00:55:05.504 --> 00:55:08.006 So when we talk about resources to young people 00:55:08.006 --> 00:55:10.338 we talk about what's the humane baseline? 00:55:10.338 --> 00:55:12.688 And how will we make sure everyone has enough? 00:55:12.688 --> 00:55:15.689 And then so you can actualize, and achieve 00:55:15.689 --> 00:55:17.191 to your fullest potential. 00:55:17.191 --> 00:55:18.402 But your not going to do well 00:55:18.402 --> 00:55:20.017 if you hadn't eaten that day. 00:55:20.017 --> 00:55:20.517 Adams: Yes! 00:55:20.517 --> 00:55:21.921 Hackman: One of my classes you know, 00:55:21.921 --> 00:55:24.022 I acknowledged that 3 out of 10 people 00:55:24.022 --> 00:55:25.818 identify, and gender present as women 00:55:25.818 --> 00:55:27.191 have active eating disorders. 00:55:27.191 --> 00:55:29.216 So I'm really clear about that, but I say, 00:55:29.216 --> 00:55:31.772 you know, if on reflection for yourself 00:55:31.772 --> 00:55:32.907 your not one of those people. 00:55:32.907 --> 00:55:34.804 And I usually teach classes 00:55:34.804 --> 00:55:36.942 in the late morning in the afternoon. 00:55:36.942 --> 00:55:40.637 I say don't eat before class, don't eat a thing 00:55:40.637 --> 00:55:42.505 before you come to class 00:55:42.505 --> 00:55:44.240 on the next class period. 00:55:44.240 --> 00:55:46.358 And were going to see how well you do, you know, 00:55:46.358 --> 00:55:48.615 and so have experience of understanding 00:55:48.615 --> 00:55:50.785 a lack of resources, if you don't already have that. 00:55:50.785 --> 00:55:52.372 Maybe you come from a class background 00:55:52.372 --> 00:55:54.096 were you actually do have that. 00:55:54.096 --> 00:55:56.658 But if you're sitting here not understanding 00:55:56.658 --> 00:55:58.625 why those people can't eat, or why those people 00:55:58.625 --> 00:56:01.204 can't do well on test. Then put yourself 00:56:01.204 --> 00:56:05.424 in that position for just a minute, and look at what happens 00:56:05.424 --> 00:56:08.929 to your cognitive capacity when your blood sugar is that low. 00:56:08.929 --> 00:56:11.607 When you haven't been well fed that day. 00:56:11.607 --> 00:56:13.878 And so what would it mean for all of our achievement. 00:56:13.878 --> 00:56:16.001 If we just made sure everybody had enough food. 00:56:16.001 --> 00:56:18.005 And so with young people we talk about 00:56:18.005 --> 00:56:20.072 community and interdependence, 00:56:20.072 --> 00:56:21.698 we talk about social justice values, 00:56:21.698 --> 00:56:24.882 we talk about those kinds of things and embed that. 00:56:24.882 --> 00:56:27.523 The challenge for every school that tries to do that. 00:56:27.523 --> 00:56:30.189 Is you're going to be accused of being a communist. 00:56:30.189 --> 00:56:32.723 You know, that anti American.. rugged individualism. 00:56:32.723 --> 00:56:34.556 I have lots of students who say 00:56:34.556 --> 00:56:37.257 I'm an individual, you know, I don't like this group 00:56:37.257 --> 00:56:38.587 think crap your putting out there, 00:56:38.587 --> 00:56:39.757 I'm like fair enough. 00:56:39.757 --> 00:56:41.055 So you are an individual, 00:56:41.055 --> 00:56:42.278 you have achieved everything all by yourself? 00:56:42.278 --> 00:56:44.540 And their like, heck yeah! I'm like 00:56:44.540 --> 00:56:46.574 so you failed the tree, made the paper, 00:56:46.574 --> 00:56:49.740 printed that book that your reading 00:56:49.740 --> 00:56:51.573 like that's astounding that you had time 00:56:51.573 --> 00:56:53.274 to do that and I'm grateful that you did it 00:56:53.274 --> 00:56:54.239 cause I like that book too. 00:56:54.239 --> 00:56:57.322 You know, and so you grew the food you ate this morning? 00:56:57.322 --> 00:57:00.825 And you, you know, mined the... drilled the oil 00:57:00.825 --> 00:57:01.457 that made it blah, blah, blah. 00:57:01.457 --> 00:57:02.792 And no they haven't, they haven't. 00:57:02.792 --> 00:57:06.289 So the illusion of rugged individualism is just that! 00:57:06.289 --> 00:57:09.691 It's an illusion... were deeply interdependent society. 00:57:09.691 --> 00:57:12.086 So, let's be honest with the peewees about that, 00:57:12.086 --> 00:57:14.558 and help them learn to act in such a way. 00:57:14.558 --> 00:57:16.773 again it doesn't mean were all calling 00:57:16.773 --> 00:57:19.123 each other Conrade or something like that. 00:57:19.123 --> 00:57:21.240 What it means is, were walking around 00:57:21.240 --> 00:57:23.243 knowing that everybody has enough. 00:57:23.243 --> 00:57:24.240 When everybody has enough 00:57:24.240 --> 00:57:27.506 that makes a society far more safe and secured. 00:57:27.506 --> 00:57:30.158 Far more productive, and far happier, 00:57:30.158 --> 00:57:33.137 we just are happier people, healthier people. 00:57:33.137 --> 00:57:35.026 Adams: Yeah, and that's reestablishing 00:57:35.026 --> 00:57:37.812 that connections back to our empathy. 00:57:37.812 --> 00:57:39.081 Hackman: Yeah! 00:57:39.081 --> 00:57:41.724 Adams: Were we can really truly see 00:57:41.724 --> 00:57:45.867 people as connected to us as brothers and sisters. 00:57:45.867 --> 00:57:47.034 I mean there's something about that 00:57:47.034 --> 00:57:48.494 I really like a lot. 00:57:48.494 --> 00:57:50.505 Hackman: Yeah, I do to. 00:57:50.505 --> 00:57:51.488 Adams: And... I use it a lot and sometimes 00:57:51.488 --> 00:57:53.876 I disarm people, you know, and they say 00:57:53.876 --> 00:57:55.611 whew I thought you only called 00:57:55.611 --> 00:57:57.709 people of color your brothers and sisters. 00:57:57.709 --> 00:58:02.162 Well, you look my brother and sister too, you know, 00:58:02.162 --> 00:58:05.855 If we can get used to that 00:58:05.855 --> 00:58:08.574 we have a much better chance of easing 00:58:08.574 --> 00:58:13.482 some of this distress that exist in the planet. 00:58:13.482 --> 00:58:17.885 Anything you like to add before we wrap this up? 00:58:17.885 --> 00:58:21.610 Hackman: Well, just a couple thoughts. 00:58:21.610 --> 00:58:24.893 One is that I think that many times 00:58:24.893 --> 00:58:29.108 when we look at critical issues like these 00:58:29.108 --> 00:58:33.245 we kind of turn our eye toward P12's, 00:58:33.245 --> 00:58:36.042 and I actually turned much of my frustration 00:58:36.042 --> 00:58:37.930 toward teacher education. 00:58:37.930 --> 00:58:41.738 In that we are, in my opinion, and from what I have read. 00:58:41.738 --> 00:58:45.541 Willfully behind, the realities of whats 00:58:45.541 --> 00:58:47.875 on the ground in our public schools. 00:58:47.875 --> 00:58:50.527 And so I have some interesting experiences 00:58:50.527 --> 00:58:52.526 with other colleagues in teacher education 00:58:52.526 --> 00:58:54.610 who actually find what I teach, and what you teach 00:58:54.610 --> 00:58:56.096 to be completely irrelevant 00:58:56.096 --> 00:58:56.596 Adams: Yes. 00:58:56.596 --> 00:58:58.492 Hackman: and a waste of time. 00:58:58.492 --> 00:59:00.259 That is such out dated thinking, 00:59:00.259 --> 00:59:01.249 and we don't even have time for that. 00:59:01.249 --> 00:59:07.225 I mean it's just... it's such an unbelievable conversation in 2011. 00:59:07.225 --> 00:59:09.743 And so I guess that one thing I would say 00:59:09.743 --> 00:59:11.842 is to put a call to teacher education, 00:59:11.842 --> 00:59:13.842 and say in simple terms 00:59:13.842 --> 00:59:15.866 can you get with the program here... honestly. 00:59:15.866 --> 00:59:18.812 Get with what's the reality of this society, 00:59:18.812 --> 00:59:22.576 and learn to embed, social justice issues 00:59:22.576 --> 00:59:25.230 in every aspect of teacher education, 00:59:25.230 --> 00:59:26.759 and prepare what is still a majority 00:59:26.759 --> 00:59:30.091 white teaching force, to be far more aware, 00:59:30.091 --> 00:59:32.475 culturally competent, and critically able 00:59:32.475 --> 00:59:35.075 to address issues of racism, sexism, 00:59:35.075 --> 00:59:37.838 hetero-sexism, homophobia in our schools. . 00:59:37.838 --> 00:59:40.076 If we made a mass movement 00:59:40.076 --> 00:59:42.059 in teacher education in that direction. 00:59:42.059 --> 00:59:44.577 Then we would find some profound change 00:59:44.577 --> 00:59:45.976 happening in our schools. 00:59:45.976 --> 00:59:48.477 Profound change, but as long as we allow 00:59:48.477 --> 00:59:49.943 Teacher-Ed to be a little bit 00:59:49.943 --> 00:59:51.943 behind the curve in theses issues, 00:59:51.943 --> 00:59:54.326 and don't prepare teachers for it, 00:59:54.326 --> 00:59:56.494 and then have a vastly changing, 00:59:56.494 --> 00:59:59.330 dramatically changing student, and family demographic, 00:59:59.330 --> 01:00:01.661 that has a different set of needs. 01:00:01.661 --> 01:00:05.536 Then, and then blame public education for it, 01:00:05.536 --> 01:00:07.177 without looking at Teacher-Ed 01:00:07.177 --> 01:00:09.222 we will forever be struggling with the same issues, 01:00:09.222 --> 01:00:12.663 again, and again, and again and we will lose, 01:00:12.663 --> 01:00:16.047 we will lose an enormous amount of human capital. 01:00:16.047 --> 01:00:18.911 Enormous amount of human capital! 01:00:18.911 --> 01:00:21.767 So yeah! I quest I would, my last words would be... 01:00:21.767 --> 01:00:24.523 kind of, a call to Teacher-Ed 01:00:24.523 --> 01:00:25.696 to step up more [head jester]. 01:00:25.696 --> 01:00:27.892 Adams: Outstanding! Thank you very much! 01:00:27.892 --> 01:00:29.920 Hackman: Cool! Thank you! Thanks a lot! 01:00:29.920 --> 01:00:31.162 It's good to be here! 01:00:31.162 --> 01:00:32.807 [Music Bridge] 01:00:32.807 --> 01:00:36.192 Text: Researcher and Interviewer 01:00:36.192 --> 01:00:39.940 Dr. J. Q. Adams Western Illinois University 01:00:39.940 --> 01:00:41.262 Producer 01:00:41.262 --> 01:00:43.144 Dr. Janice R. Welsch 01:00:43.144 --> 01:00:46.473 Western Illinois University 01:00:46.473 --> 01:00:47.753 [Music Bridge] 01:00:47.753 --> 01:00:52.349 Text: Special Thanks to Dr. Heather W. Hackman 01:00:52.349 --> 01:00:55.063 [Music Bridge] 01:00:55.063 --> 01:01:02.599 Credits: Director/Editor Mark A. Dial 01:01:02.599 --> 01:01:04.884 Production Facilities provided by 01:01:04.884 --> 01:01:09.991 University Television Wester Illinois University 01:01:09.991 --> 01:01:13.369 Funding Provided by California Community Foundation 01:01:13.369 --> 01:01:15.574 Illinois Association of Cultural Diversity 01:01:15.574 --> 01:01:18.122 Western Illinois University 01:01:18.122 --> 01:01:24.390 Western Illinois University [copyright] 2011 01:01:24.390 --> 01:01:25.651 [Music Bridge]