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Text: Interview with Dr. Heather W. Hackman

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Human Relations & Multicultural Education

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St. Cloud State University

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By Dr. J. Q. Adams Educational & Interdisciplinary Studies Western Illinois University

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Dr. J. Q. Adams: Good morning we have Dr. Heather Hackman here

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and I'd like you to introduce yourself

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and share with us some a little bit

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about your background, and what you do.

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Dr. Heather Hackman: Great! Well first of all

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I just want to thank you for having me.

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It's a privilege to be here and I have been

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following the work that you and Janice

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have done for a long time so.

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I'm excited to have this conversation.

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I teach up at St. Cloud State

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in the College of Education, in the

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Department of Human Relations and Multicultural,

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and I think similar to Illinois.

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Minnesota has a Human Relations

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Multicultural Educational requirement

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for all Teacher-Ed folks

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and so, that's the bulk of my teaching load.

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I've been there 11 years

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and I only meant to stay a couple,

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but then you get stuck right... in a good way

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stuck in a good way.

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And so what I do is, student's from all, all Teacher-Ed

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Prep programs comes through that class

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and then they go back out to their

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Special Ed, Phy Ed, Tech Ed, L-Ed programs.

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And so, that again has been the bulk

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of my teaching for the least 11 years.

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It's a very exciting field and exciting set of content.

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It's incredibly frustrating to try and teach

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all of that in one semester.

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But as time has gone on just in my career

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at St. Cloud State.

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It's clear that it becomes more, more, and more necessary .

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Which is actually what led me to

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also do quite a bit of training in schools.

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I think I mentioned to you

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I do about forty trainings a year.

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Primarily focusing on initially on

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Diversity verses Cultural Competency

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verses Social Justice Education and what the differences

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are their all valuable approaches.

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But their definitely not the same

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and from that, then moving into

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how we engage in anti-racist pedagogy.

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How we address issues of racism

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and white privilege in our schools.

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How teachers, staff, and family and all support members

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in a school environment can really learn

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to address that in an ongoing way.

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So, I would say the bulk of my work today

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is an even split if you will

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between teaching and working with pre-service

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and in-service students

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and then, time in schools, working with buildings

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or whole districts and getting them

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to move a little bit around issues

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of racism and white privilege.

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Adams: Where in the era of Obama

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and there are many people who feel, of course,

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that race is no longer a major issue.

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Hackman: Yeah!

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Adams: Can you kind of deconstruct that for us

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and talk to us about why your work

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now is perhaps even more important

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then before Obama?

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Hackman: Yeah... yeah you know I think

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it's an interesting conversation about the

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post-racial environment with Obama.

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And my memory is, and correct me if I'm wrong,

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Is that once he won the Iowa Caucuses

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the amount of anti- or the amount of racist sentiment

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directed toward him across the country was pretty profound.

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I mean I kept reading in... in small side columns in newspapers

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or hearing small stories in the news about effigies

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hung from trees on college campuses.

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Or effigies of him burned.

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Anti-racist sentiment appearing on the dorm

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residential hall doors

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of students of color etc., etc..

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And so, I think it would be interesting

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if it was a post racial era.

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But in point of fact, what I think it has done

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is really raise to the four, the explicit nature

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of race in the United States.

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And the depth and breathe of the challenges

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that this society has around racial justice,

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and where it's a, it's a promise yet to be fulfilled.

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Were not there yet, and... and the election

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of one individual is certainly a step

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so I don't mean to dismiss that at all.

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I definitely saw the mall

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on a very cold day in January

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on his inauguration filled with people.

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White folks who've been strong allies,

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and folks of color from varies

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communities of color, so deeply moved

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because this was such a monumental day.

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A day that many of them said,

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I'd never thought I'd see this in my life time.

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Adams: I was one of them.

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Hackman: Yeah! So, both are true right?

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Both are true, it was amazing, amazing moment.

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And yet, that single moment,

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or that single election,

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or that single individual is not enough

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to UN-weave the fabric of racism,

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and racial injustice in the United States.

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It's a step for sure, and it certainly

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given us cause for conversation, just with the phrase

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"Post-racial in the United States".

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So that's been fabulous, and yet

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it's not were we need to go

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the way that translate into schools.

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Is like, you know, on the one hand

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many students of color have for generations

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sat in US Public P12's,

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and not seen themselves in the curriculum.

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And so now here's an opportunity

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to... for at least one community of color

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to say yeah here I am... finally here I am.

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And other communities of color can in similar ways say,

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yes maybe some different things are possible

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in the United States.

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So on the one hand, it does change

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the landscape of public schools just a little bit,

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but on the other hand, our public school curriculum,

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our teacher- ed structure, and the structure of

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US education structure as a whole.

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Has not fundamentally changed

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with the election of President Obama.

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Adams: Right!

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Hackman: And so, that's the issue!

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That's the issue that we need to get to.

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Is what is the nature of this core structure,

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and if were really committed to ending racism,

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and challenging white privilege

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in the United States.

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Then we have to get very serious

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about conversations about that structure.

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So while curriculum changes are important,

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and really valuable, and while the example

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of President Obama is such a wonderful example

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particularly for a little pee-wees, you know,

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they see something very different in their life

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this would have been normal.

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So while that's so true, and powerful in our schools.

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It is also true that we have to address

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root causes, and the root structure

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of racial inequality in our public schools,

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and we haven't done that.

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Adams: In your intro you... you differentiated

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between a number of delivery systems.

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Diversity Approaches, Cultural Competency,

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and then your more Anti-racist way.

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Hackman: Yeah!

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Adams: Can you talk about what differs

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between each of those, and why your work,

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you think, maybe more salient then the others?

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Hackman: Yeah! It's actually kind of the typical

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intro lecture that I give. Both in my

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Teacher-Ed classes, and often times

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when I go into schools.

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And so diversity is really fundamentally about

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looking at appreciation, awareness

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of difference, and that's a good thing.

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So I'm not... I'm not dissing on that at all.

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It's an very important component

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to learning how to live in an, in an, incredibly

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diverse along many different aspects in this society.

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And so appreciation and awareness

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of difference is vital...

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it's really vital to our society.

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And yet, it's problematic for a couple with reasons

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Number one is that it doesn't ever look

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at issues of power.

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There's no conversation of power

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in a conversation about awareness

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and appreciation of difference.

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And... and so we don't have a race base

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achievement gap in our schools

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because I don't appreciate you

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or you don't appreciate me.

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We have a race base achievement gap

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in schools because of power and structures.

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And so while diversity education,

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and diversity programing,

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and taking in diversity initiatives in our schools

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are incredibly useful for helping us broaden

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our... our spectrum of awareness, and understanding.

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They don't address the issues of power.

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The second issue around diversity education.

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Is it's typically used as euphemism for race issues.

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And so I encounter a lot of superintendents

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or a lot of principles, or teachers

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majority white folks.

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Who have a hard time using the word race.

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Because their afraid that if they

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even use the word race

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their going to be called racist.

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So they use diversity instead

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cause it's a... fluffier term it's easy

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it just rolls off the tongue... diversity.

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And so they like that... they like that.

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And so it's often euphemistically used as code for race.

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But in point in fact, a true diversity agenda

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would really look at racial diversity,

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gender diversity, class diversity, disability oppression.

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All the social identities that we have in the United States.

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It would really address that

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And so, and so diversity work is important,

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but there are some problematic aspects

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that haven't manifest in our schools.

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Then you've got Cultural Competency.

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Which is fundamentally about

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developing a set of skills, and tools,

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and again awareness, for me to reach across

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cultural lines for me to understand

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linguistic differences, cultural differences,

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difference in values and beliefs.

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And again that could not be more important

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at this point in time.

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I mean I just saw on CNN this morning

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that one of the results from the most recent census was

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that the Chicano Latino population

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makes up over 50 million people in the US.

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That's 1/6 of the US population.

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So if I, as a white educator, don't learn and understand

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kind of the nuances of language.

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If I don't understand the nuances of culture,

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and values, and beliefs I'm in some big trouble

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in my ability to server students.

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So there's, I would never argue that that's important.

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The problem is cultural competency often means

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on the ground, in schools, on the ground.

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It often means that I as a white teacher

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learn about that Latino students culture

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so I can better help them be more like me.

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And so, it's a very subtle... there's a subtle

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dynamic of assimilation-ism in cultural

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competency conversations.

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Because they don't get down to...

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again the issue of power.

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And so while we have a multicultural society

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there are certain identity groups

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that also within their cultural identity

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have access to structural power.

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There are certain groups that don't.

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That are continually marginalized.

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So I don't get to talk about my cultural identity

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as if it exist in a vacuum divorce from power,

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and so what often happens again is white teachers

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learn all these cultural tools

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so that we can help those students

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do better on our test.

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So we can help them fit better in [hand jester] "our schools."

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But it begs a question [hand jester] "who's the our there?."

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Of course, it's my frame work, my beliefs, my values.

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And so Cultural Competency work

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is incredibly important, but again

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the issue of power is lost.

266
00:10:42,971 --> 00:10:44,539
So a social justice framework

267
00:10:44,539 --> 00:10:47,506
is all about power and privilege.

268
00:10:47,506 --> 00:10:50,121
Social justice ask questions about access to resources.

269
00:10:50,121 --> 00:10:51,937
It ask who's got what and why?

270
00:10:51,937 --> 00:10:54,603
It demands that we look rigorously

271
00:10:54,603 --> 00:10:56,405
at our history, and say okay

272
00:10:56,405 --> 00:10:58,853
what's led us to this moment?

273
00:10:58,853 --> 00:11:01,513
Were not ahistorical beings although US-rs tend

274
00:11:01,513 --> 00:11:03,339
to have a pretty bad sense of our history.

275
00:11:03,339 --> 00:11:05,184
I've traveled to Europe a couple times

276
00:11:05,184 --> 00:11:07,721
and most European taxi drivers

277
00:11:07,721 --> 00:11:10,320
understand US history and politics

278
00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,205
a little bit better then most US-rs do.

279
00:11:12,205 --> 00:11:13,053
Adams: Sadly, but true... sadly, but true!

280
00:11:13,053 --> 00:11:15,360
Hackman: Very interesting, very interesting dynamic!

281
00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:17,669
So a social justice framework

282
00:11:17,669 --> 00:11:19,704
demands a sense of history,

283
00:11:19,704 --> 00:11:21,203
and a sense of understanding

284
00:11:21,203 --> 00:11:22,656
how we got to this moment.

285
00:11:22,656 --> 00:11:24,472
It demands critical thinking.

286
00:11:24,472 --> 00:11:26,670
Which is completely different then just thinking.

287
00:11:26,670 --> 00:11:28,572
Waking up in the morning and saying

288
00:11:28,572 --> 00:11:30,554
I want cereal for breakfast.

289
00:11:30,554 --> 00:11:33,455
Is not critical thinking it's just a thought.

290
00:11:33,455 --> 00:11:35,290
But critical thinking is composed

291
00:11:35,290 --> 00:11:36,970
of three primary components.

292
00:11:36,970 --> 00:11:39,587
It means that I look at issues from multiple

293
00:11:39,587 --> 00:11:41,920
non dominant retrospectives.

294
00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:43,538
Multiple non dominant perspectives.

295
00:11:43,538 --> 00:11:45,304
So the example I always give in class is

296
00:11:45,304 --> 00:11:47,687
that when I was in third grade

297
00:11:47,687 --> 00:11:49,637
I grew up in Vegas.

298
00:11:49,637 --> 00:11:52,188
When I was in third grade Mrs. Schneider

299
00:11:52,188 --> 00:11:53,305
was my homeroom teacher,

300
00:11:53,305 --> 00:11:55,906
and when she talked about kind of,

301
00:11:55,906 --> 00:11:57,304
and were in the West, and when she talked

302
00:11:57,304 --> 00:11:59,788
about the West she called it Westward Expansion.

303
00:11:59,788 --> 00:12:01,106
So that should give you a tip right there right!

304
00:12:01,106 --> 00:12:01,843
Adams: Um Hum!

305
00:12:01,843 --> 00:12:03,521
Hackman: Kind of the school house rock

306
00:12:03,521 --> 00:12:05,673
elbow room conversation.

307
00:12:05,673 --> 00:12:07,790
And she said, you know, they needed more room.

308
00:12:07,790 --> 00:12:09,655
I don't know if she sounded like that

309
00:12:09,655 --> 00:12:10,638
she was a heavy smoker,

310
00:12:10,638 --> 00:12:12,053
there's a good chance that she did.

311
00:12:12,053 --> 00:12:13,159
You know... lots of coffee, lots of cigarettes

312
00:12:13,159 --> 00:12:17,157
And she said they got in their wagons, and they headed west,

313
00:12:17,157 --> 00:12:22,156
and it was cold nights all kinds of survival issues,

314
00:12:22,156 --> 00:12:23,040
and there were a few people there

315
00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:24,139
bam, bam, get them out of the way....

316
00:12:24,139 --> 00:12:26,021
then they got to the ocean

317
00:12:26,021 --> 00:12:28,538
and stuck a flag in, and was like...WOW!!!

318
00:12:28,538 --> 00:12:30,105
And I remember sitting there as a third grader thinking.

319
00:12:30,105 --> 00:12:33,074
That is the most amazing story I have ever heard.

320
00:12:33,074 --> 00:12:35,955
Like what an adventure camping, you know, it was just great!

321
00:12:35,955 --> 00:12:38,056
What she failed to mention

322
00:12:38,056 --> 00:12:40,170
was that there were already a minimum

323
00:12:40,170 --> 00:12:42,839
of 10 million people just on this continent a minimum.

324
00:12:42,839 --> 00:12:44,788
There's 500 plus nation bands and tribes

325
00:12:44,788 --> 00:12:48,011
recognized in North America as a whole.

326
00:12:48,011 --> 00:12:50,909
And so she just left that out... she just left it out.

327
00:12:50,909 --> 00:12:52,824
I don't even know her motivations for doing it.

328
00:12:52,824 --> 00:12:54,906
I don't know if she didn't have the information.

329
00:12:54,906 --> 00:12:57,039
I don't know if she was just to scared.

330
00:12:57,039 --> 00:12:58,471
I don't know if she was just

331
00:12:58,471 --> 00:12:59,938
teaching by the book and sick of teaching.

332
00:12:59,938 --> 00:13:02,157
I don't know what the deal was, but she left it out.

333
00:13:02,157 --> 00:13:05,305
And I don't think had she put it in there

334
00:13:05,305 --> 00:13:07,290
that as a third grader I would have said.

335
00:13:07,290 --> 00:13:08,605
Mrs. Schneider that sounds more like

336
00:13:08,605 --> 00:13:10,656
colonization then westward expansion,

337
00:13:10,656 --> 00:13:12,522
you know, I don't think I would have done that.

338
00:13:12,522 --> 00:13:14,338
But I think what I would have said is what all

339
00:13:14,338 --> 00:13:15,868
third graders probably would have said.

340
00:13:15,868 --> 00:13:17,389
Is raised my little hand, and said,

341
00:13:17,389 --> 00:13:20,008
you know, where did all the people go?

342
00:13:20,008 --> 00:13:21,194
So if there's all those people,

343
00:13:21,194 --> 00:13:22,988
where did they all go? Like what happened?

344
00:13:22,988 --> 00:13:24,753
Now she's faced with the difficult

345
00:13:24,753 --> 00:13:26,678
proposition of talking about genocide

346
00:13:26,678 --> 00:13:29,352
or talking about well, you know, there's only

347
00:13:29,352 --> 00:13:31,123
the US population now is only

348
00:13:31,123 --> 00:13:32,269
two percent indigenous.

349
00:13:32,269 --> 00:13:35,487
She's left with a really hard conversation in her mind.

350
00:13:35,487 --> 00:13:38,092
But it's honest conversation...

351
00:13:38,092 --> 00:13:41,513
and so critical thinking involves looking at issues

352
00:13:41,513 --> 00:13:43,171
from multiple non dominant perspectives.

353
00:13:43,171 --> 00:13:45,440
Asking questions about power and privilege.

354
00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,408
It's endemic to a social justice framework

355
00:13:47,408 --> 00:13:48,908
to ask questions about power and privilege.

356
00:13:48,908 --> 00:13:52,158
And rigorous self reflection, were I say,

357
00:13:52,158 --> 00:13:54,259
how do I actually know what I know.

358
00:13:54,259 --> 00:13:55,696
And so, a social justice framework

359
00:13:55,696 --> 00:13:57,504
get's to issues of racism.

360
00:13:57,504 --> 00:13:59,767
Because were looking at multiple perspectives

361
00:13:59,767 --> 00:14:01,606
and asking questions about power

362
00:14:01,606 --> 00:14:03,567
and fundamentally challenging,

363
00:14:03,567 --> 00:14:05,207
and consistently challenging my assumptions

364
00:14:05,207 --> 00:14:07,695
and what I think, I know, about these issues.

365
00:14:07,695 --> 00:14:10,580
It demands that we talk about oppression...

366
00:14:10,580 --> 00:14:12,849
yes... and therefore liberation.

367
00:14:12,849 --> 00:14:15,939
So, if were going to identify what racism is, we have to talk about,

368
00:14:15,939 --> 00:14:18,492
what an anti-racist society looks like.

369
00:14:18,492 --> 00:14:20,723
What can this be with racial liberation

370
00:14:20,723 --> 00:14:21,591
what would it look like?

371
00:14:21,591 --> 00:14:22,540
What would it feel like?

372
00:14:22,540 --> 00:14:25,726
Most white students say um-hum.

373
00:14:25,726 --> 00:14:28,708
Which is really the honest answer... I don't know, I don't know!

374
00:14:28,708 --> 00:14:31,073
But many students of color have an idea.

375
00:14:31,073 --> 00:14:32,458
Just like many people who identify

376
00:14:32,458 --> 00:14:33,623
and gender present as women have a sense of,

377
00:14:33,623 --> 00:14:36,465
what would it be like if I could walk down the street

378
00:14:36,465 --> 00:14:38,202
and not worry about sexual assault.

379
00:14:38,202 --> 00:14:40,074
You know one third of all women in the US

380
00:14:40,074 --> 00:14:41,184
are going to be sexually assaulted

381
00:14:41,184 --> 00:14:42,102
in their life-time.

382
00:14:42,102 --> 00:14:47,632
And so, what would that be like, and there's... it's an farian idea.

383
00:14:47,632 --> 00:14:49,389
The oppressed will liberate the oppressors.

384
00:14:49,389 --> 00:14:52,942
Because the oppressed, understand the nature of oppression,

385
00:14:52,942 --> 00:14:55,158
but they have a sense of who they really are too,

386
00:14:55,158 --> 00:14:56,772
and what it could be like.

387
00:14:56,772 --> 00:14:59,941
But the oppressor only has the oppressive dynamic

388
00:14:59,941 --> 00:15:01,472
that's the only thing they ever know.

389
00:15:01,472 --> 00:15:03,613
And so a social justice framework

390
00:15:03,613 --> 00:15:05,307
looks at critical thinking,

391
00:15:05,307 --> 00:15:07,825
it looks at issues of power and privilege,

392
00:15:07,825 --> 00:15:10,180
and in terms of issues of race, which is what I spend

393
00:15:10,180 --> 00:15:12,307
much of my time consulting on.

394
00:15:12,307 --> 00:15:13,508
It ask questions not just how racism

395
00:15:13,508 --> 00:15:16,341
targets folks of color, but also asks

396
00:15:16,341 --> 00:15:18,141
how white people benefit.

397
00:15:18,141 --> 00:15:20,823
How does this system work as a whole.

398
00:15:20,823 --> 00:15:22,991
Only, you know, not so we can study

399
00:15:22,991 --> 00:15:24,290
that and feel depressed.

400
00:15:24,290 --> 00:15:26,074
But so that we can finally get to a place of,

401
00:15:26,074 --> 00:15:28,824
how do we create a racially just society,

402
00:15:28,824 --> 00:15:32,291
or gender liberated society etc.

403
00:15:32,291 --> 00:15:33,409
Adams: You know you mentioned

404
00:15:33,409 --> 00:15:36,412
the importance of understanding history.

405
00:15:36,412 --> 00:15:38,639
I think that's really one of the key points.

406
00:15:38,639 --> 00:15:41,760
We... we do not do a good job

407
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,351
of helping young people understand history.

408
00:15:45,351 --> 00:15:47,714
Because if you go back to those framers,

409
00:15:47,714 --> 00:15:49,841
and you look at the inconsistencies

410
00:15:49,841 --> 00:15:53,567
in their messages... there's some pretty brilliant people.

411
00:15:53,567 --> 00:15:56,725
They had some good noble ideas,

412
00:15:56,725 --> 00:16:01,359
but their practice, was much different then their ideology.

413
00:16:01,359 --> 00:16:04,453
Especially in terms of obviously, the slave question.

414
00:16:04,453 --> 00:16:06,773
The whole question of identity

415
00:16:06,773 --> 00:16:08,475
when it comes to people

416
00:16:08,475 --> 00:16:10,009
who didn't look like them.

417
00:16:10,009 --> 00:16:13,425
Be it indigenous people, or be it Africans,

418
00:16:13,425 --> 00:16:17,642
and then women, obviously, once again

419
00:16:17,642 --> 00:16:19,911
were talking about creating a republic

420
00:16:19,911 --> 00:16:23,359
democratic ideals, and so forth,

421
00:16:23,359 --> 00:16:26,759
about half your population doesn't have the franchise.

422
00:16:26,759 --> 00:16:29,697
So, it's... it's helping students develop

423
00:16:29,697 --> 00:16:33,557
that understanding of what was in their minds,

424
00:16:33,557 --> 00:16:36,924
you know, how would a Wachee know why

425
00:16:36,924 --> 00:16:40,161
with these ideals, and then this application

426
00:16:40,161 --> 00:16:42,524
which becomes our constitution,

427
00:16:42,524 --> 00:16:44,773
our bill of rights, you know, the beginnings,

428
00:16:44,773 --> 00:16:47,183
and the foundations of this country.

429
00:16:47,183 --> 00:16:48,793
So, how do you do that?

430
00:16:48,793 --> 00:16:52,108
How are you introducing that history

431
00:16:52,108 --> 00:16:53,710
to your students in a way that's

432
00:16:53,710 --> 00:16:56,578
palatable to them, and doesn't chase them out of the room

433
00:16:56,578 --> 00:16:58,546
that makes them want to come back and be engaged?

434
00:16:58,546 --> 00:17:01,857
Hackman: Yeah... that's a great question.

435
00:17:01,857 --> 00:17:05,194
To be honest because I think

436
00:17:05,194 --> 00:17:10,892
there's a particular flavor of history that's taught,

437
00:17:10,892 --> 00:17:14,210
and so that flavor of history

438
00:17:14,210 --> 00:17:17,625
is not just framed as information.

439
00:17:17,625 --> 00:17:20,232
It's framed as the American experience.

440
00:17:20,232 --> 00:17:23,995
The defining framework for how you understand

441
00:17:23,995 --> 00:17:26,625
your existence in this society.

442
00:17:26,625 --> 00:17:29,604
So, to challenge the history, begins to challenge,

443
00:17:29,604 --> 00:17:31,941
and often they respond unconsciously,

444
00:17:31,941 --> 00:17:33,966
but it begins to challenge their identity

445
00:17:33,966 --> 00:17:36,860
as an American, and what does that mean.

446
00:17:36,860 --> 00:17:40,621
And so I actually start by introducing

447
00:17:40,621 --> 00:17:43,920
the conversation about what are your values?

448
00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:44,918
And so, I go to the board,

449
00:17:44,918 --> 00:17:46,010
and I drawl this really goofy thing

450
00:17:46,010 --> 00:17:48,022
that looks like broccoli, but artistic license right,

451
00:17:48,022 --> 00:17:50,675
and so you got a... it's supposed to be a tree

452
00:17:50,675 --> 00:17:51,759
you've got branches

453
00:17:51,759 --> 00:17:52,810
you've got the trunk

454
00:17:52,810 --> 00:17:53,419
you've got the roots.

455
00:17:53,419 --> 00:17:55,662
I have them do a little values clarification of,

456
00:17:55,662 --> 00:17:57,043
what are some of the things

457
00:17:57,043 --> 00:17:59,728
you value, but if it storm came through

458
00:17:59,728 --> 00:18:01,427
and blew the branches off no big deal.

459
00:18:01,427 --> 00:18:03,175
And they usually put stuff like... stuff

460
00:18:03,175 --> 00:18:07,143
big car, fast car that kind of stuff.

461
00:18:07,143 --> 00:18:08,895
Then on the trunk they put things like

462
00:18:08,895 --> 00:18:11,743
education, health, and then at the bottom

463
00:18:11,743 --> 00:18:13,328
they put things like family

464
00:18:13,328 --> 00:18:15,177
or values that they hold

465
00:18:15,177 --> 00:18:19,079
like compassion, justice, faith, honesty,

466
00:18:19,079 --> 00:18:21,412
integrity those kinds of things.

467
00:18:21,412 --> 00:18:23,044
And so then we talk about,

468
00:18:23,044 --> 00:18:28,927
so we hold those, throughout the course of the semester,

469
00:18:28,927 --> 00:18:31,710
and then we introduce history, and ask

470
00:18:31,710 --> 00:18:34,499
kind of how does this version of history,

471
00:18:34,499 --> 00:18:37,242
support or not your core values?

472
00:18:37,242 --> 00:18:39,311
Then how does this understanding of history

473
00:18:39,311 --> 00:18:42,060
help you honor your core values.

474
00:18:42,060 --> 00:18:43,177
So, what we find is that

475
00:18:43,177 --> 00:18:46,443
truth wins out in many ways.

476
00:18:46,443 --> 00:18:48,516
Truth will kind of prevail

477
00:18:48,516 --> 00:18:49,871
when it's set in the context

478
00:18:49,871 --> 00:18:53,947
not of, macro social values, but who they

479
00:18:53,947 --> 00:18:55,510
really are as human beings.

480
00:18:55,510 --> 00:18:57,626
Who they really are as, no I believe in integrity

481
00:18:57,626 --> 00:19:00,276
it's one of my most important things.

482
00:19:00,276 --> 00:19:03,073
Well based on that, then we should have an honest

483
00:19:03,073 --> 00:19:04,311
analyst of history, simply

484
00:19:04,311 --> 00:19:05,426
so that we don't repeat it... right!

485
00:19:05,426 --> 00:19:06,109
Adams: Um-hum absolutely!

486
00:19:06,109 --> 00:19:07,426
Hackman: We really don't want to make

487
00:19:07,426 --> 00:19:08,194
that mistake again.

488
00:19:08,194 --> 00:19:09,559
And you've got them, in a sense,

489
00:19:09,559 --> 00:19:11,160
like yeah well, I guess you're right.

490
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:12,761
And so then I make them read

491
00:19:12,761 --> 00:19:14,561
Howard Zinn - A Peoples History of the United States

492
00:19:14,561 --> 00:19:15,729
which freaks them out right

493
00:19:15,729 --> 00:19:18,228
cause it's like a 650 page book or something.

494
00:19:18,228 --> 00:19:20,327
And so I slice it up a little bit

495
00:19:20,327 --> 00:19:22,110
to make it more palatable as you said,

496
00:19:22,110 --> 00:19:23,692
cause it's totaling overwhelming

497
00:19:23,692 --> 00:19:25,412
for many undergrads who are taking

498
00:19:25,412 --> 00:19:27,626
many other classes.

499
00:19:27,626 --> 00:19:28,996
Then we start to look at history

500
00:19:28,996 --> 00:19:31,775
from the framework, not of those in power,

501
00:19:31,775 --> 00:19:34,011
but those who've been disenfranchised.

502
00:19:34,011 --> 00:19:35,310
We start to ask some questions

503
00:19:35,310 --> 00:19:37,212
about what was in the minds of folks.

504
00:19:37,212 --> 00:19:39,477
Like how do you establish colonies,

505
00:19:39,477 --> 00:19:41,276
and later a larger society

506
00:19:41,276 --> 00:19:42,526
based on the principles

507
00:19:42,526 --> 00:19:44,210
democracy, and freedom, and engage

508
00:19:44,210 --> 00:19:45,800
in the institution of slavery and genocide.

509
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:47,547
Like how does that work.

510
00:19:47,547 --> 00:19:50,861
The primary way is they created race.

511
00:19:50,861 --> 00:19:52,859
They construct the idea of race

512
00:19:52,859 --> 00:19:55,208
so that you can hold both things as true.

513
00:19:55,208 --> 00:19:57,662
Is that this is for people,

514
00:19:57,662 --> 00:20:00,581
but unfortunately, people of color aren't people.

515
00:20:00,581 --> 00:20:02,024
So were still okay, you know,

516
00:20:02,024 --> 00:20:03,943
or women aren't fully human either

517
00:20:03,943 --> 00:20:05,712
so were still okay.

518
00:20:05,712 --> 00:20:06,747
Adams:Those small brains you have.

519
00:20:06,747 --> 00:20:09,300
Hackman: Right! Yes, I know, I know it's really a problem.

520
00:20:09,300 --> 00:20:10,914
Adams: It's all about cranium size [hand jester].

521
00:20:10,914 --> 00:20:12,768
Hackman: It is... it is exactly!

522
00:20:12,768 --> 00:20:16,429
And so there's ways that we construct justifications

523
00:20:16,429 --> 00:20:20,032
to hold those two ideals at the same time.

524
00:20:20,032 --> 00:20:23,269
Those constructions are alive and well today.

525
00:20:23,269 --> 00:20:26,462
Adams: Once again, very misunderstood

526
00:20:26,462 --> 00:20:28,844
we don't often see the connection

527
00:20:28,844 --> 00:20:32,277
of how we got here from there.

528
00:20:32,277 --> 00:20:35,382
I think that's the bridge that's necessary

529
00:20:35,382 --> 00:20:39,178
for that critical consciousness to come into being.

530
00:20:39,178 --> 00:20:42,613
One needs to know about those cranium studies.

531
00:20:42,613 --> 00:20:45,644
One needs to know how standardized test

532
00:20:45,644 --> 00:20:47,480
gets turned around in a way

533
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,831
that it begins to marginalize people.

534
00:20:49,831 --> 00:20:50,466
Hackman: Yeah

535
00:20:50,466 --> 00:20:54,597
Adams: One needs to understand, who and what

536
00:20:54,597 --> 00:20:56,429
the Dillingham Commission did.

537
00:20:56,429 --> 00:20:59,728
When you speak those truths to most

538
00:20:59,728 --> 00:21:02,192
of our audiences, whether their undergrads or grads

539
00:21:02,192 --> 00:21:04,562
they have know idea of what your talking about at all.

540
00:21:04,562 --> 00:21:05,193
Hackman: Yeah.

541
00:21:05,193 --> 00:21:08,000
Adams: That have not been part of their experience

542
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,937
in terms of understanding America.

543
00:21:10,937 --> 00:21:12,486
Hackman: So what do you do for them in that moment?

544
00:21:12,486 --> 00:21:15,413
How do you bridge potential resistance

545
00:21:15,413 --> 00:21:18,597
or just shock, on someone in, like your experience?

546
00:21:18,597 --> 00:21:20,949
Adams: I find shock is good! [laughter]

547
00:21:20,949 --> 00:21:23,128
Actually a little cognitive dissonance

548
00:21:23,128 --> 00:21:25,890
opens up the pathways.

549
00:21:25,890 --> 00:21:28,611
What I do is have them create their own awe has.

550
00:21:28,611 --> 00:21:34,329
So... so rather then, you know, my telling them this,

551
00:21:34,329 --> 00:21:37,646
you know, I send them on an exploration for it, you know,

552
00:21:37,646 --> 00:21:40,250
So read about Agassi,

553
00:21:40,250 --> 00:21:42,967
read about Morton, read about these characters,

554
00:21:42,967 --> 00:21:44,568
and then come and talk to me about

555
00:21:44,568 --> 00:21:46,628
what you think this means.

556
00:21:46,628 --> 00:21:52,849
Let's take a look at the Antibon Period, you know, in

557
00:21:52,849 --> 00:21:56,336
let's explorer what was being preached in the pulpits.

558
00:21:56,336 --> 00:21:58,981
Especially in the South.

559
00:21:58,981 --> 00:22:01,978
Let's take a look at this version of Christianity

560
00:22:01,978 --> 00:22:04,324
verses your own version of Christianity,

561
00:22:04,324 --> 00:22:06,778
and suddenly, you know, those uh-huhs has happen...

562
00:22:06,778 --> 00:22:09,013
it's like wow, I didn't know that this is what they were,

563
00:22:09,013 --> 00:22:10,562
you know, saying from the pulpit .

564
00:22:10,562 --> 00:22:12,764
Or I didn't know this was what modern science

565
00:22:12,764 --> 00:22:15,728
was saying about, you know, issues of race.

566
00:22:15,728 --> 00:22:17,703
and then the uh-huhs happen.

567
00:22:17,703 --> 00:22:18,805
Hackman Yeah.

568
00:22:18,805 --> 00:22:20,184
Adams: And once you create the uh-huhs,

569
00:22:20,184 --> 00:22:22,198
then that's fertile ground for, you know,

570
00:22:22,198 --> 00:22:23,296
for really doing that kind of work

571
00:22:23,296 --> 00:22:24,862
that I think we both enjoy.

572
00:22:24,862 --> 00:22:26,100
Hackman: Yeah!

573
00:22:26,100 --> 00:22:29,064
I think two other questions that go with that well.

574
00:22:29,064 --> 00:22:32,893
Are asking them, once they kind of have those moments

575
00:22:32,893 --> 00:22:34,381
of cognitive dissonance, why do you think

576
00:22:34,381 --> 00:22:36,077
you didn't know this?

577
00:22:36,077 --> 00:22:39,383
What do you think happened there?

578
00:22:39,383 --> 00:22:40,982
Your teachers were pretty smart people

579
00:22:40,982 --> 00:22:42,527
what do you think happened?

580
00:22:42,527 --> 00:22:45,252
with that history book, that said Rosa was just tired.

581
00:22:45,252 --> 00:22:47,030
Were do you think that came from?

582
00:22:47,030 --> 00:22:49,396
And then the critical question, I think,

583
00:22:49,396 --> 00:22:52,414
is to say, and what will you do about this?

584
00:22:52,414 --> 00:22:53,882
So what are you going to do in your own pedagogy,

585
00:22:53,882 --> 00:22:54,832
when you get in a classroom

586
00:22:54,832 --> 00:22:56,708
your the third grade teacher,

587
00:22:56,708 --> 00:22:59,446
and that unit comes up, you know,

588
00:22:59,446 --> 00:23:01,396
are you going to say, they needed more room,

589
00:23:01,396 --> 00:23:03,750
or are you actually going to do something different.

590
00:23:03,750 --> 00:23:06,864
And so it's the... that moment of dissonance

591
00:23:06,864 --> 00:23:09,445
you can't go very far if they don't have it,

592
00:23:09,445 --> 00:23:10,844
you know, or if I don't have it.

593
00:23:10,844 --> 00:23:12,563
I won't get very far in my own learning.

594
00:23:12,563 --> 00:23:15,166
But then the structural or power question

595
00:23:15,166 --> 00:23:16,714
of why didn't you know?

596
00:23:16,714 --> 00:23:17,813
It didn't just happen that way,

597
00:23:17,813 --> 00:23:19,931
and what will you do about it now?

598
00:23:19,931 --> 00:23:22,966
I think for a teacher-ed students it's critical.

599
00:23:22,966 --> 00:23:24,669
Adams: Absolutely!

600
00:23:24,669 --> 00:23:27,594
In that reflective piece that you referred to

601
00:23:27,594 --> 00:23:30,710
sometimes I think that, perhaps it is the most important thing.

602
00:23:30,710 --> 00:23:34,267
If we just get them to reflect,

603
00:23:34,267 --> 00:23:36,102
you know, to really examine their actions

604
00:23:36,102 --> 00:23:38,766
examine again, their own core values, and so forth,

605
00:23:38,766 --> 00:23:41,535
and then how that relates to the students that their teaching,

606
00:23:41,535 --> 00:23:43,847
and the world were preparing them for.

607
00:23:43,847 --> 00:23:46,947
But once again... how do you get them

608
00:23:46,947 --> 00:23:49,065
to make time to do that?

609
00:23:49,065 --> 00:23:51,781
Given all the things that their juggling,

610
00:23:51,781 --> 00:23:54,219
you know, as undergrads, or as practitioners,

611
00:23:54,219 --> 00:23:57,064
you know, how do you get them to see

612
00:23:57,064 --> 00:23:58,731
the value of reflection?

613
00:23:58,731 --> 00:24:02,616
Hackman: Yeah, yeah it's yeah, it's

614
00:24:02,616 --> 00:24:04,882
I think the action piece is what helps with that.

615
00:24:04,882 --> 00:24:07,948
I think they see that, talking about oppression

616
00:24:07,948 --> 00:24:08,864
doesn't mean just depression.

617
00:24:08,864 --> 00:24:12,231
It's like... awe the world is horrible, you know,

618
00:24:12,231 --> 00:24:14,756
and then have a good semester, and then your done,

619
00:24:14,756 --> 00:24:16,327
you know, it can't be that

620
00:24:16,327 --> 00:24:17,865
it has to be more than that.

621
00:24:17,865 --> 00:24:19,503
And so, there's a sense of relief in thinking,

622
00:24:19,503 --> 00:24:21,766
okay so now I understand this

623
00:24:21,766 --> 00:24:23,595
and there's something I can do about it.

624
00:24:23,595 --> 00:24:28,521
And so, that action [hand jester], you know, hope, and action together

625
00:24:28,521 --> 00:24:30,798
are a really powerful combination.

626
00:24:30,798 --> 00:24:34,918
Hope without action is, you know, kind of... stuck

627
00:24:34,918 --> 00:24:37,668
it loses it's oomph, but action without any sense of hope

628
00:24:37,668 --> 00:24:41,517
often leads to cynicism, and despair and so there has to be

629
00:24:41,517 --> 00:24:43,870
that combination of oh... I can think of

630
00:24:43,870 --> 00:24:45,550
a better way for this to go,

631
00:24:45,550 --> 00:24:47,381
and I can do it to.

632
00:24:47,381 --> 00:24:50,550
Adams: So, I'm interested your approaches

633
00:24:50,550 --> 00:24:54,047
when your working with school districts.

634
00:24:54,047 --> 00:24:57,591
Are you forced sometimes into bandage situations?

635
00:24:57,591 --> 00:24:59,293
Or do you only take those school districts

636
00:24:59,293 --> 00:25:01,147
who are willing to, [hand jester] roll their sleeves up,

637
00:25:01,147 --> 00:25:03,061
and really be engaged?

638
00:25:03,061 --> 00:25:06,279
Hackman: Um... I think it's a broad spectrum

639
00:25:06,279 --> 00:25:09,757
actually it's a broad spectrum,

640
00:25:09,757 --> 00:25:13,727
and I think in... in bandage moments

641
00:25:13,727 --> 00:25:15,894
it's a moment of opportunity and so

642
00:25:15,894 --> 00:25:17,971
you have to start [hand jester] a little farther back.

643
00:25:17,971 --> 00:25:19,048
And so I often start with the

644
00:25:19,048 --> 00:25:22,263
Diversity, Cultural Competency, Social Justice conversation,

645
00:25:22,263 --> 00:25:23,879
and ask them to kind of figure out

646
00:25:23,879 --> 00:25:27,864
as a school, or a district, what is it that you really want to do?

647
00:25:27,864 --> 00:25:29,662
And you can do it just be honest about it,

648
00:25:29,662 --> 00:25:31,428
and understand that you can have

649
00:25:31,428 --> 00:25:32,944
food festivals all you want

650
00:25:32,944 --> 00:25:35,778
for cultural competency, and those are great.

651
00:25:35,778 --> 00:25:37,580
Everyone will be very full,

652
00:25:37,580 --> 00:25:39,730
and happy that they ate all that good stuff.

653
00:25:39,730 --> 00:25:41,746
But there will still be racism in your school

654
00:25:41,746 --> 00:25:43,144
so you just need to understand that.

655
00:25:43,144 --> 00:25:44,811
That while their milling down the tacos

656
00:25:44,811 --> 00:25:47,101
there also going to be with a full mouth [mouth jester]

657
00:25:47,101 --> 00:25:48,356
saying the thing their going to say, you know,

658
00:25:48,356 --> 00:25:51,102
and so get that, just get that.

659
00:25:51,102 --> 00:25:52,610
And just to be honest about it,

660
00:25:52,610 --> 00:25:56,162
and so many schools, you know, with that intro conversation

661
00:25:56,162 --> 00:25:59,861
do locate themselves, and then begin the process

662
00:25:59,861 --> 00:26:02,266
of moving along, and moving along.

663
00:26:02,266 --> 00:26:03,962
I don't think there's a linear development

664
00:26:03,962 --> 00:26:06,026
between the three, but I think in terms of

665
00:26:06,026 --> 00:26:10,145
risk assessment with the community actually.

666
00:26:10,145 --> 00:26:13,361
Minnesota is a largely white state,

667
00:26:13,361 --> 00:26:15,178
and so the risk assessment of jumping

668
00:26:15,178 --> 00:26:16,844
right to an anti-racist framework

669
00:26:16,844 --> 00:26:19,031
in a rural white school district

670
00:26:19,031 --> 00:26:20,361
that's a pretty risky thing to do.

671
00:26:20,361 --> 00:26:21,929
So, they actually do say let's begin here,

672
00:26:21,929 --> 00:26:23,444
and we want to get to this.

673
00:26:23,444 --> 00:26:24,580
But we've got to bring

674
00:26:24,580 --> 00:26:27,116
our community along as well.

675
00:26:27,116 --> 00:26:29,598
And so in some bandage situations, I start there.

676
00:26:29,598 --> 00:26:31,797
But in other situations where schools

677
00:26:31,797 --> 00:26:33,362
are districts, or buildings, are really

678
00:26:33,362 --> 00:26:36,414
ready to go, then I begin the conversation

679
00:26:36,414 --> 00:26:40,029
of race, racism with a conversation of race.

680
00:26:40,029 --> 00:26:42,895
What is, what is race?

681
00:26:42,895 --> 00:26:44,178
And I love that video series

682
00:26:44,178 --> 00:26:45,831
Race the Power of An Illusion.

683
00:26:45,831 --> 00:26:47,712
I strongly recommend it to anybody

684
00:26:47,712 --> 00:26:49,761
in Teacher-Ed absolutely use that.

685
00:26:49,761 --> 00:26:52,364
We talk about what's race?

686
00:26:52,364 --> 00:26:53,827
Because we've been socialized

687
00:26:53,827 --> 00:26:56,261
as a macro-society to not really question

688
00:26:56,261 --> 00:26:59,879
that, but just to assume that it is something.

689
00:26:59,879 --> 00:27:03,499
But it's not it's completely made up, totally made up.

690
00:27:03,499 --> 00:27:09,112
And... I think it was Goebbels or Himmler who said

691
00:27:09,112 --> 00:27:12,325
"If you say a lie enough times people will believe it."

692
00:27:12,325 --> 00:27:14,512
And that's the truth with race in this society.

693
00:27:14,512 --> 00:27:18,602
If you make race seem real... for long enough

694
00:27:18,602 --> 00:27:20,084
which we've been doing for a few hundred years.

695
00:27:20,084 --> 00:27:22,644
Then we get to the place

696
00:27:22,644 --> 00:27:23,664
were we are right now

697
00:27:23,664 --> 00:27:26,679
were we essentialize certain qualities, based on skin color.

698
00:27:26,679 --> 00:27:27,527
Adams: Yes.

699
00:27:27,527 --> 00:27:28,177
Hackman: The tricky thing about race

700
00:27:28,177 --> 00:27:29,465
is you get on one plane

701
00:27:29,465 --> 00:27:30,830
and you fly eight, ten, twelve hours

702
00:27:30,830 --> 00:27:32,645
and you get off somewhere else,

703
00:27:32,645 --> 00:27:33,913
and skin color may or may not have

704
00:27:33,913 --> 00:27:36,499
any salience whatsoever.

705
00:27:36,499 --> 00:27:39,713
And so I start with this construction of race

706
00:27:39,713 --> 00:27:42,979
because it speaks to, why was it created?

707
00:27:42,979 --> 00:27:44,862
How do you explain the decadence

708
00:27:44,862 --> 00:27:47,800
between the ideals and the actions

709
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,029
where does that come from?

710
00:27:49,029 --> 00:27:51,218
And in the process of doing that

711
00:27:51,218 --> 00:27:53,941
many most of the students in my classes or white.

712
00:27:53,941 --> 00:27:56,669
Most of the teachers I deal with in schools or white.

713
00:27:56,669 --> 00:27:59,532
They don't see themselves as racialized beings.

714
00:27:59,532 --> 00:28:02,413
Like white people think about race as all those folks.

715
00:28:02,413 --> 00:28:05,496
But the truth is white had to be created as well.

716
00:28:05,496 --> 00:28:07,730
So, you know, Europeans everyday

717
00:28:07,730 --> 00:28:10,708
Europeans didn't get on their boats, and say, [hand jester]

718
00:28:10,708 --> 00:28:11,982
come on let's go and be white.

719
00:28:11,982 --> 00:28:13,831
They didn't say that they came as

720
00:28:13,831 --> 00:28:15,729
Germans and French, Norwegians, and Swedes

721
00:28:15,729 --> 00:28:17,357
and whatever they got going on.

722
00:28:17,357 --> 00:28:19,846
And they get here, and the British power structure

723
00:28:19,846 --> 00:28:21,498
began to consolidate, consolidate,

724
00:28:21,498 --> 00:28:24,165
and saw that through class allegiance

725
00:28:24,165 --> 00:28:27,146
these white Europeans were actually

726
00:28:27,146 --> 00:28:29,214
chilling with these folks.

727
00:28:29,214 --> 00:28:30,715
Like you can't have that no,no,no,no,no,!

728
00:28:30,715 --> 00:28:32,779
Because you vastly out number me.

729
00:28:32,779 --> 00:28:34,316
You vastly out number me.

730
00:28:34,316 --> 00:28:37,430
I can't divide along class any more as we did in England

731
00:28:37,430 --> 00:28:38,814
because it's not quite working here.

732
00:28:38,814 --> 00:28:39,832
So what were going to do

733
00:28:39,832 --> 00:28:43,047
is create white, and were going to create race

734
00:28:43,047 --> 00:28:45,165
in the mid seventeenth century.

735
00:28:45,165 --> 00:28:47,099
Right around seventeen hundred in Virginia

736
00:28:47,099 --> 00:28:48,289
the Maryland documents,

737
00:28:48,289 --> 00:28:50,396
you actually start to see white codified.

738
00:28:50,396 --> 00:28:53,563
And so I'll let you live in this colony if you're white.

739
00:28:53,563 --> 00:28:54,781
Or I'll let you live in this state,

740
00:28:54,781 --> 00:28:56,333
or I'll let you have this job.

741
00:28:56,333 --> 00:28:57,765
You can do this thing if you start

742
00:28:57,765 --> 00:28:58,946
to swear allegiance to whiteness,

743
00:28:58,946 --> 00:29:01,613
and what that meant is, stop speaking German

744
00:29:01,613 --> 00:29:05,681
stop speaking Swedish, stop speaking French, and get all white! [hand jester]

745
00:29:05,681 --> 00:29:07,333
So, just get white will ya!

746
00:29:07,333 --> 00:29:08,848
And it didn't happen easily cause these folks,

747
00:29:08,848 --> 00:29:11,216
culture has such powerful meaning.

748
00:29:11,216 --> 00:29:12,983
Like I'm not going to get white!

749
00:29:12,983 --> 00:29:18,400
And yet, I've got five kids to feed... and so, alright maybe.

750
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:19,165
So you can look at Chicago,

751
00:29:19,165 --> 00:29:20,332
in the meat packing factories in Chicago,

752
00:29:20,332 --> 00:29:22,562
and the Polish population in Chicago,

753
00:29:22,562 --> 00:29:24,748
and I'm sorry you can't speak your language,

754
00:29:24,748 --> 00:29:25,797
you can't act the way you are,

755
00:29:25,797 --> 00:29:28,055
you can't eat the food, you got to get white.

756
00:29:28,055 --> 00:29:30,361
And Henry Ford, and his plants in Detroit

757
00:29:30,361 --> 00:29:32,064
had classes were he taught

758
00:29:32,064 --> 00:29:33,450
European immigrants to assimilate

759
00:29:33,450 --> 00:29:35,963
to a white dominant standard in the US.

760
00:29:35,963 --> 00:29:39,285
Which was about speaking US standard dialect.

761
00:29:39,285 --> 00:29:41,448
Which was about dressing a certain way.

762
00:29:41,448 --> 00:29:44,918
Eating certain foods, engaging in certain moods

763
00:29:44,918 --> 00:29:46,780
of behavior with each other.

764
00:29:46,780 --> 00:29:49,243
Forming communities in very particular ways.

765
00:29:49,243 --> 00:29:51,483
He made his employees take classes on that

766
00:29:51,483 --> 00:29:54,167
so that they would assimilate.

767
00:29:54,167 --> 00:29:56,694
And so, what happened is... I, you know,

768
00:29:56,694 --> 00:29:58,652
these kind of Euro, many European folks

769
00:29:58,652 --> 00:30:01,772
coming over here had capitol "C" culture in tack,

770
00:30:01,772 --> 00:30:04,428
and they were told, [hand jester] give up "C" for "W."

771
00:30:04,428 --> 00:30:06,266
and if you get "W" then you'll have

772
00:30:06,266 --> 00:30:08,181
some of these benefits and privileges.

773
00:30:08,181 --> 00:30:09,749
But over a few generations [hand jester]

774
00:30:09,749 --> 00:30:13,114
"W" turns into "A"... the American dream!

775
00:30:13,114 --> 00:30:15,014
Because I got take job, and then I got to go to college,

776
00:30:15,014 --> 00:30:17,262
and then I got to pay that GI Bill house,

777
00:30:17,262 --> 00:30:18,715
and I got to do all that stuff.

778
00:30:18,715 --> 00:30:20,481
And so my [hand jester] "W" is an "A,"

779
00:30:20,481 --> 00:30:23,834
and what it means to be an American is [hand jester] White!

780
00:30:23,834 --> 00:30:24,447
Adams: Yes.

781
00:30:24,447 --> 00:30:25,334
Hackman: But I don't know that

782
00:30:25,334 --> 00:30:26,500
I was never taught that

783
00:30:26,500 --> 00:30:28,466
I was just taught Americans is about freedom.

784
00:30:28,466 --> 00:30:31,767
But slowly over time that structure gets in place.

785
00:30:31,767 --> 00:30:34,166
So I use the construction of race

786
00:30:34,166 --> 00:30:37,132
not to help people see the fallacies of essentializing

787
00:30:37,132 --> 00:30:39,666
certain characteristics that students of color.

788
00:30:39,666 --> 00:30:42,333
But also to help them see the fallacy

789
00:30:42,333 --> 00:30:44,774
of essentializing certain things to whiteness.

790
00:30:44,774 --> 00:30:47,373
That white is inherently superior... it's like No!

791
00:30:47,373 --> 00:30:50,110
It's a game just like everything else.

792
00:30:50,110 --> 00:30:51,525
So, we move to a... once we get race

793
00:30:51,525 --> 00:30:54,082
then we move racism, then we talk about

794
00:30:54,082 --> 00:30:56,894
the construction of white privilege and white supremacy.

795
00:30:56,894 --> 00:30:58,364
And how if your going to look at

796
00:30:58,364 --> 00:31:00,217
racial justice as a whole in the US.

797
00:31:00,217 --> 00:31:02,431
You have to look at how racism targets folks of color.

798
00:31:02,431 --> 00:31:05,027
But you must look at white privilege,

799
00:31:05,027 --> 00:31:06,714
and white supremacy too.

800
00:31:06,714 --> 00:31:07,682
Cause it takes a lot of work

801
00:31:07,682 --> 00:31:08,765
to be racist... right?

802
00:31:08,765 --> 00:31:09,265
Adams: Um hum.

803
00:31:09,265 --> 00:31:11,399
Hackman: It's hard work! And so,

804
00:31:11,399 --> 00:31:12,833
Brown verses Board of Education

805
00:31:12,833 --> 00:31:15,500
May 17, 1954 the Supreme Court said:

806
00:31:15,500 --> 00:31:16,815
"Desegregate these schools."

807
00:31:16,815 --> 00:31:18,750
The macro power structure of whiteness said:

808
00:31:18,750 --> 00:31:20,384
Oh... no, no, no, no, no..

809
00:31:20,384 --> 00:31:23,183
And so found a way to fly under the radar

810
00:31:23,183 --> 00:31:24,364
of a Supreme Court decision,

811
00:31:24,364 --> 00:31:27,834
and still in 2005, Jonathan Kozol's book

812
00:31:27,834 --> 00:31:30,409
"The Shame of the Nation" showed us that

813
00:31:30,409 --> 00:31:36,215
the racial segregation levels in US public schools in 2005 were equal to 1968.

814
00:31:36,215 --> 00:31:39,132
So, how do you do that, and not get sued... right!

815
00:31:39,132 --> 00:31:41,982
And so what we find is it takes an enormous amount

816
00:31:41,982 --> 00:31:44,302
of tricky work to maintain systems

817
00:31:44,302 --> 00:31:46,198
of racism and it begs the question why?

818
00:31:46,198 --> 00:31:48,601
And the reason why is because white people benefit.

819
00:31:48,601 --> 00:31:51,250
I benefit from a system pf privilege.

820
00:31:51,250 --> 00:31:53,668
I benefit from an ideology of supremacy

821
00:31:53,668 --> 00:31:56,600
that everywhere I go tells me I'm superior.

822
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,483
And so that's... and that's last... right

823
00:31:59,483 --> 00:32:00,856
you can imagine why I have to put that last.

824
00:32:00,856 --> 00:32:03,649
But that's last, the last part of the conversation

825
00:32:03,649 --> 00:32:05,800
when we then begin to drill down

826
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,299
at curriculum, policies, hiring practices

827
00:32:09,299 --> 00:32:11,516
really look at what happening in that district.

828
00:32:11,516 --> 00:32:14,300
Not only the ways that it marginalize people of color,

829
00:32:14,300 --> 00:32:17,768
but the ways that it serves white people, inordinately, you know,

830
00:32:17,768 --> 00:32:21,217
in disproportion, serves white people.

831
00:32:21,217 --> 00:32:26,732
And so that's... that is not a lovely conversation.

832
00:32:26,732 --> 00:32:28,235
Their not like... WOW I'm so glad

833
00:32:28,235 --> 00:32:29,450
I came to this workshop!

834
00:32:29,450 --> 00:32:30,444
Adams: Right, right!

835
00:32:30,444 --> 00:32:32,086
Hackman: That's not one that they thought that they signed up for.

836
00:32:32,086 --> 00:32:34,675
And yet, if we don't fundamentally address

837
00:32:34,675 --> 00:32:37,282
both sides of this, we will never

838
00:32:37,282 --> 00:32:39,934
get to racial equality in our schools... never.

839
00:32:39,934 --> 00:32:43,434
Adams: Yeah... very nicely done.

840
00:32:43,434 --> 00:32:50,274
What I'd like to do... to help them see that what was white in 1790,

841
00:32:50,274 --> 00:32:54,699
is not what we think white is in 2011.

842
00:32:54,699 --> 00:32:59,149
Who was American in the 18th, 19th century.

843
00:32:59,149 --> 00:33:01,565
Is not who American is now.

844
00:33:01,565 --> 00:33:04,169
Many of the groups that they come from

845
00:33:04,169 --> 00:33:05,984
would not have been considered white

846
00:33:05,984 --> 00:33:09,532
or American, and their just stunned

847
00:33:09,532 --> 00:33:13,633
their actually stunned by that, you know,

848
00:33:13,633 --> 00:33:16,494
so helping them process that, and see

849
00:33:16,494 --> 00:33:19,779
see... see that through a deconstruction

850
00:33:19,779 --> 00:33:21,684
is very powerful for them.

851
00:33:21,684 --> 00:33:23,251
And then they begin to understand

852
00:33:23,251 --> 00:33:26,901
oh this has been a struggle

853
00:33:26,901 --> 00:33:29,168
for identity throughout the history

854
00:33:29,168 --> 00:33:33,484
of this country, and it still is.

855
00:33:33,484 --> 00:33:35,734
So, you know, that part of it

856
00:33:35,734 --> 00:33:39,036
is very, very important as well.

857
00:33:39,036 --> 00:33:40,556
Mort people don't understand

858
00:33:40,556 --> 00:33:44,269
that up until relative recent times.

859
00:33:44,269 --> 00:33:46,117
The only way you can become nationalized

860
00:33:46,117 --> 00:33:48,385
as a citizen is if you are white.

861
00:33:48,385 --> 00:33:49,931
Hackman: Yeah.

862
00:33:49,931 --> 00:33:51,031
Adams: And so defining white

863
00:33:51,031 --> 00:33:54,500
was always essential as you know.

864
00:33:54,500 --> 00:33:58,767
Yeah, so that's a... that's a big one that's a tough one.

865
00:33:58,767 --> 00:34:02,966
The denial that you initially get from those conversations

866
00:34:02,966 --> 00:34:07,002
I find to be palatable, you know,

867
00:34:07,002 --> 00:34:09,752
so strategies for getting people

868
00:34:09,752 --> 00:34:12,024
to break through the denial.

869
00:34:12,024 --> 00:34:12,679
Hackman: Yeah!

870
00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:13,818
Adams: Do you have any good ones?

871
00:34:13,818 --> 00:34:15,711
Hackan: I... you know, one of the things

872
00:34:15,711 --> 00:34:17,386
I constantly say in teaching

873
00:34:17,386 --> 00:34:18,588
and training around issues of race.

874
00:34:18,588 --> 00:34:20,636
As a white person to other white people is

875
00:34:20,636 --> 00:34:24,363
we just don't even have time for guilt and shame.

876
00:34:24,363 --> 00:34:25,792
Now I know that every time

877
00:34:25,792 --> 00:34:26,631
this topic has come up

878
00:34:26,631 --> 00:34:27,753
in the past for you,

879
00:34:27,753 --> 00:34:29,302
you've probably been encouraged

880
00:34:29,302 --> 00:34:31,034
to feel guilt and shame.

881
00:34:31,034 --> 00:34:33,186
Or subtlety directed towards there

882
00:34:33,186 --> 00:34:34,601
or maybe just felt it cause

883
00:34:34,601 --> 00:34:35,735
you didn't know what else to do.

884
00:34:35,735 --> 00:34:38,077
And so what I do is I actually have some

885
00:34:38,077 --> 00:34:40,054
some curricular pieces that I use

886
00:34:40,054 --> 00:34:43,420
to help them understand that quilt and shame

887
00:34:43,420 --> 00:34:46,417
is actually a tool of the dominant structure.

888
00:34:46,417 --> 00:34:48,420
Because when you're guilty and shameful

889
00:34:48,420 --> 00:34:51,601
you just don't have a lot of energy to move.

890
00:34:51,601 --> 00:34:53,255
And so I'm very clear,

891
00:34:53,255 --> 00:34:56,603
and I have to say it again, and again to white students.

892
00:34:56,603 --> 00:34:58,253
No time for guilt and shame.

893
00:34:58,253 --> 00:34:59,808
Like if racism and whiteness

894
00:34:59,808 --> 00:35:01,552
is like a house on fire

895
00:35:01,552 --> 00:35:02,764
it doesn't do anybody any good

896
00:35:02,764 --> 00:35:03,852
to stand there and say

897
00:35:03,852 --> 00:35:06,287
I feel so bad about that house burning down.

898
00:35:06,287 --> 00:35:08,802
I'm so guilty about that house burning down.

899
00:35:08,802 --> 00:35:10,773
I've read books about the house burning down.

900
00:35:10,773 --> 00:35:12,035
I saw an important Oprah episode

901
00:35:12,035 --> 00:35:13,485
about the house burning down.

902
00:35:13,485 --> 00:35:14,186
Adams: [laughter]

903
00:35:14,186 --> 00:35:15,351
Hackman: You know, like while you're

904
00:35:15,351 --> 00:35:17,034
lamenting and feeling guilty

905
00:35:17,034 --> 00:35:18,920
the house is burning down.

906
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:20,253
And so I get it, I totally get it.

907
00:35:20,253 --> 00:35:23,154
And so I usually look at my watch and say:

908
00:35:23,154 --> 00:35:25,736
"I'll give you 30 seconds to feel horrible...GO!"

909
00:35:25,736 --> 00:35:27,386
You know, and then I... beep, beep, you're DONE!

910
00:35:27,386 --> 00:35:28,720
Because what do we need to do

911
00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:30,320
we need to move to action.

912
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,503
And also there isn't a little white pee-wee

913
00:35:33,503 --> 00:35:35,035
born in the United States who says:

914
00:35:35,035 --> 00:35:36,858
Yeah cut the cord, and clean me up,

915
00:35:36,858 --> 00:35:38,304
and I can't wait to be racist.

916
00:35:38,304 --> 00:35:40,402
Like it's a socialized process.

917
00:35:40,402 --> 00:35:42,694
It's something we socialize people into,

918
00:35:42,694 --> 00:35:48,640
and we know that because when we look at really young ones.

919
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:49,587
Thankfully we can video tape this,

920
00:35:49,587 --> 00:35:51,969
and you get really clear evidence of it.

921
00:35:51,969 --> 00:35:53,511
Of course they notice a difference in skin color.

922
00:35:53,511 --> 00:35:56,309
They can make a differentiation among melanin.

923
00:35:56,309 --> 00:35:59,353
But there's no assigned meaning to it.

924
00:35:59,353 --> 00:36:02,935
So, they don't actually care, it's a noticing, but it's not a care.

925
00:36:02,935 --> 00:36:05,986
Then at different age levels depending on their exposure.

926
00:36:05,986 --> 00:36:09,823
You can see when suddenly it matters.

927
00:36:09,823 --> 00:36:12,369
Suddenly it matters, and I can't play with you or I can't play with you,

928
00:36:12,369 --> 00:36:13,589
or I can't hang out with you,

929
00:36:13,589 --> 00:36:14,880
and you don't live in my neighborhood

930
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:16,331
and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

931
00:36:16,331 --> 00:36:18,589
And so the signing of that meeting happens,

932
00:36:18,589 --> 00:36:22,457
but those children didn't ask for that to happen.

933
00:36:22,457 --> 00:36:25,451
And so another piece that I use to address that is resistance.

934
00:36:25,451 --> 00:36:27,972
Is to say, I know, that whatever you put

935
00:36:27,972 --> 00:36:29,641
at the bottom of your value tree

936
00:36:29,641 --> 00:36:30,590
is really powerful stuff.

937
00:36:30,590 --> 00:36:32,251
I'm willing to bet that white supremacy,

938
00:36:32,251 --> 00:36:34,234
and racism are not there.

939
00:36:34,234 --> 00:36:38,002
And so what I know about you, is that you're good people

940
00:36:38,002 --> 00:36:41,005
and what I know about you, you've been miseducation,

941
00:36:41,005 --> 00:36:44,100
and led astray, from your core values.

942
00:36:44,100 --> 00:36:46,064
So my invitation to you

943
00:36:46,064 --> 00:36:48,547
is to come back to your core values.

944
00:36:48,547 --> 00:36:51,691
Let who you say you are and want to be in the world,

945
00:36:51,691 --> 00:36:54,223
match up with who you actually are.

946
00:36:54,223 --> 00:36:56,804
Because coming into focus like that as a white person

947
00:36:56,804 --> 00:37:00,255
is a profound experience morally,

948
00:37:00,255 --> 00:37:04,571
ethically, spiritually, intellectually it's an amazing moment.

949
00:37:04,571 --> 00:37:05,988
But this system of whiteness

950
00:37:05,988 --> 00:37:08,021
in order to get you to be complicit.

951
00:37:08,021 --> 00:37:10,638
The system of racism, in order to get you to be complicit,

952
00:37:10,638 --> 00:37:13,340
has moved you so far away

953
00:37:13,340 --> 00:37:15,889
through miseducation, and bad socialization

954
00:37:15,889 --> 00:37:19,176
that it has harmed you, it has harmed you

955
00:37:19,176 --> 00:37:22,438
and so it's time to come home to your core values.

956
00:37:22,438 --> 00:37:26,256
Adams: That's...that's nice, I pick on the Christians a lot.

957
00:37:26,256 --> 00:37:26,889
Hackman: [laughter]

958
00:37:26,889 --> 00:37:29,654
Adams: Well, cause their so plentiful for one.

959
00:37:29,654 --> 00:37:30,588
Hackman: There are quite a few

960
00:37:30,588 --> 00:37:32,059
in the United States... sure yeah!

961
00:37:32,059 --> 00:37:35,372
Adams: But basically, once again, the very foundation

962
00:37:35,372 --> 00:37:37,721
of being a Christian is just what you were talking about

963
00:37:37,721 --> 00:37:39,526
that you have these strong set of core values.

964
00:37:39,526 --> 00:37:41,422
And so then what I want to do

965
00:37:41,422 --> 00:37:44,105
is to take them back to seventeen hundreds.

966
00:37:44,105 --> 00:37:44,840
Hackman: Yeah.

967
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:46,896
Adams: Okay, and so, let's try to understand

968
00:37:46,896 --> 00:37:49,054
how you can be Christian, and own slaves?

969
00:37:49,054 --> 00:37:53,831
Okay, then once we establish that, let's understand

970
00:37:53,831 --> 00:37:59,140
how these Quakers, become conscious, of the fact that,

971
00:37:59,140 --> 00:38:03,619
you know, I don't think I can get to heaven owning slaves.

972
00:38:03,619 --> 00:38:09,507
And! Not only can I get there... okay... I must act.

973
00:38:09,507 --> 00:38:12,537
I can't just say I don't like this stuff.

974
00:38:12,537 --> 00:38:15,237
But I've got to put those beliefs now in action.

975
00:38:15,237 --> 00:38:18,906
What would that take during those time periods,

976
00:38:18,906 --> 00:38:22,239
you know, entire eighteenth century

977
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:24,905
almost the entire nineteenth century,

978
00:38:24,905 --> 00:38:28,058
you know, and stuff, and these people are saying

979
00:38:28,058 --> 00:38:30,960
are railing against this sin.

980
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:31,634
Hackman: Yeah.

981
00:38:31,634 --> 00:38:33,298
Adams: And so then we kind of, [hand jester] you know,

982
00:38:33,298 --> 00:38:35,508
once again we got to look at Christianity.

983
00:38:35,508 --> 00:38:37,828
What does that mean then to have

984
00:38:37,828 --> 00:38:41,873
this faith, this belief, that I believe in so powerfully

985
00:38:41,873 --> 00:38:46,572
act on behalf of this institution of slavery,

986
00:38:46,572 --> 00:38:49,305
and boy that's fun.

987
00:38:49,305 --> 00:38:49,950
Hackman: Yeah.

988
00:38:49,950 --> 00:38:54,527
Adams: That's a real come to Jesus for a lot of them... okay.

989
00:38:54,527 --> 00:38:56,486
And... and that's what we have to do.

990
00:38:56,486 --> 00:38:58,122
And of course, I don't just pick on the Christians

991
00:38:58,122 --> 00:38:59,708
anybody else who's there

992
00:38:59,708 --> 00:39:00,788
will find something for them too.

993
00:39:00,788 --> 00:39:02,556
[laughter]

994
00:39:02,556 --> 00:39:05,008
Adams:But we have a lot of Christians,

995
00:39:05,008 --> 00:39:08,572
and they haven't had to ask that question.

996
00:39:08,572 --> 00:39:10,673
They haven't had to have that conversation.

997
00:39:10,673 --> 00:39:13,853
There is some real interesting new material

998
00:39:13,853 --> 00:39:17,190
out that looks at the role of religion and slavery.

999
00:39:17,190 --> 00:39:20,975
There's one scene in particular, in which,

1000
00:39:20,975 --> 00:39:26,539
the Christians actually met above an auction block.

1001
00:39:26,539 --> 00:39:29,621
And so you have the cells, in which,

1002
00:39:29,621 --> 00:39:30,957
the slaves were being held.

1003
00:39:30,957 --> 00:39:35,258
Their upstairs praying, having service,

1004
00:39:35,258 --> 00:39:37,894
and they can hear the wales

1005
00:39:37,894 --> 00:39:40,443
of the chattel beneath them.

1006
00:39:40,443 --> 00:39:46,155
How do you reconcile? How is that possible?

1007
00:39:46,155 --> 00:39:49,681
And... and so we have to also see

1008
00:39:49,681 --> 00:39:51,069
along with the political piece

1009
00:39:51,069 --> 00:39:53,286
how that religious piece works.

1010
00:39:53,286 --> 00:39:53,924
Hackman: Yeah.

1011
00:39:53,924 --> 00:39:55,592
Adams: As we alluded to earlier.

1012
00:39:55,592 --> 00:39:58,975
How the science works to justify that

1013
00:39:58,975 --> 00:40:02,747
because in order to create that thing called race

1014
00:40:02,747 --> 00:40:04,789
we needed all those powerful structures

1015
00:40:04,789 --> 00:40:09,641
working cohesively together, to... to create the amnesia.

1016
00:40:09,641 --> 00:40:10,274
Hackman: Right.

1017
00:40:10,274 --> 00:40:14,559
One of the things to... to tag onto that is.

1018
00:40:14,559 --> 00:40:17,093
I try to make a distinction between

1019
00:40:17,093 --> 00:40:21,618
christian hegemony, and the value set humans feel.

1020
00:40:21,618 --> 00:40:25,008
Because there are a lot of Christians in my class.

1021
00:40:25,008 --> 00:40:27,656
St. Cloud State is in central Minnesota.

1022
00:40:27,656 --> 00:40:29,143
So there's a lot of white students

1023
00:40:29,143 --> 00:40:31,592
who also happen to identify as Christian.

1024
00:40:31,592 --> 00:40:34,708
And that first approach is like, woe! [hand jester]

1025
00:40:34,708 --> 00:40:37,806
Now your not suppose assail my religion.

1026
00:40:37,806 --> 00:40:39,838
I'm like, I'm not actually, what I'm talking about is a

1027
00:40:39,838 --> 00:40:43,147
power structure of christian hegemony in the US.

1028
00:40:43,147 --> 00:40:45,308
I talk about how christian hegemony

1029
00:40:45,308 --> 00:40:48,974
it's an interesting kind of threesome here.

1030
00:40:48,974 --> 00:40:53,241
With class supremacy and white supremacy,

1031
00:40:53,241 --> 00:40:55,943
and thee way that those three work together

1032
00:40:55,943 --> 00:40:58,124
to constantly offset each other.

1033
00:40:58,124 --> 00:41:00,288
And so when you try to press on one

1034
00:41:00,288 --> 00:41:02,352
then you get the other two squeezing in there.

1035
00:41:02,352 --> 00:41:05,920
It's, it's remarkable, remarkable kind of pairing.

1036
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:06,807
Adams: Good joojoo!

1037
00:41:06,807 --> 00:41:08,483
Hackman: Yeah! It's remarkable way,

1038
00:41:08,483 --> 00:41:11,142
like if it wasn't so completely devastating

1039
00:41:11,142 --> 00:41:13,819
to so many, you know, tens of millions of people.

1040
00:41:13,819 --> 00:41:15,509
What you could look at and say,

1041
00:41:15,509 --> 00:41:17,941
that's a pretty elegant design, of the way

1042
00:41:17,941 --> 00:41:19,358
the three of them interact.

1043
00:41:19,358 --> 00:41:21,342
And so, you can't talk about race in the US,

1044
00:41:21,342 --> 00:41:23,358
without talking about the structure

1045
00:41:23,358 --> 00:41:25,309
of christian hegemony, you just can't do it.

1046
00:41:25,309 --> 00:41:27,426
Or class it's very difficult to do that.

1047
00:41:27,426 --> 00:41:31,176
Adams: Yeah and together boy what do they spawn

1048
00:41:31,176 --> 00:41:33,892
and the offshoots of it, of course,

1049
00:41:33,892 --> 00:41:35,375
around the rest of the planet to,

1050
00:41:35,375 --> 00:41:40,093
because the whole genetics, eugenics piece, oh my goodness.

1051
00:41:40,093 --> 00:41:45,486
We see the awesome manifestation of it, in Hitlers Germany.

1052
00:41:45,486 --> 00:41:46,260
Hackman: Yes, absolutely.

1053
00:41:46,260 --> 00:41:48,275
Adams: So, if you want to play those kind of games

1054
00:41:48,275 --> 00:41:50,574
let's see how then that plays out... okay.

1055
00:41:50,574 --> 00:41:55,801
Because here's the width and breathe... and that's sad.

1056
00:41:55,801 --> 00:41:57,491
Hackman: Yeah!

1057
00:41:57,491 --> 00:41:59,983
Adams: Incredibly, incredibly sad.

1058
00:41:59,983 --> 00:42:01,647
But when you play those games

1059
00:42:01,647 --> 00:42:05,809
of creating the other, then that's the by-product.

1060
00:42:05,809 --> 00:42:08,644
The by-product is, I can take 60 million people

1061
00:42:08,644 --> 00:42:12,320
from your Continent, take them on this aweful passage,

1062
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:16,458
we can lose 20, 30, percent of them,

1063
00:42:16,458 --> 00:42:18,824
and it's just a business lost.

1064
00:42:18,824 --> 00:42:21,075
It's not really lives being lost.

1065
00:42:21,075 --> 00:42:25,267
It's just property, okay, so that takes

1066
00:42:25,267 --> 00:42:30,221
powerful forces, powerful, powerful forces,.

1067
00:42:30,221 --> 00:42:31,958
Let's talk about empathy.

1068
00:42:31,958 --> 00:42:32,643
Hackman: Alright!

1069
00:42:32,643 --> 00:42:36,510
Adams: Yeah! I've given end to empathy.

1070
00:42:36,510 --> 00:42:40,621
It seems to me... it's that cohesive fabric

1071
00:42:40,621 --> 00:42:44,658
that we have that's part of being human,

1072
00:42:44,658 --> 00:42:47,725
that we all have, we all posses it.

1073
00:42:47,725 --> 00:42:50,475
I mean it's one of those things that are at birth.

1074
00:42:50,475 --> 00:42:53,460
But as you were talking about something happens

1075
00:42:53,460 --> 00:42:54,920
in the socialization process

1076
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,507
in which we rip empathy.

1077
00:42:57,507 --> 00:43:00,644
That we only have it for certain classes of people,

1078
00:43:00,644 --> 00:43:02,026
or certain kinds of things and stuff.

1079
00:43:02,026 --> 00:43:05,738
Now we have great empathy for our dogs and cats.

1080
00:43:05,738 --> 00:43:09,324
You know, when I see a dog or a cat in a Mercedes Benz.

1081
00:43:09,324 --> 00:43:11,993
I call it a Buddha cat or a Buddha dog.

1082
00:43:11,993 --> 00:43:13,595
Cause it must be a high reincarnation,

1083
00:43:13,595 --> 00:43:16,125
you know, I mean, to be able to get that kind of luxury.

1084
00:43:16,125 --> 00:43:19,327
But we do amazing things for our pets.

1085
00:43:19,327 --> 00:43:19,827
Hackman: Yeah!

1086
00:43:19,827 --> 00:43:22,308
Adams: That we won't do for our fellow human beings.

1087
00:43:22,308 --> 00:43:22,975
Hackman: Yeah!

1088
00:43:22,975 --> 00:43:24,421
Adams You know, so something is happen

1089
00:43:24,421 --> 00:43:26,574
to that empathy that is naturally there,

1090
00:43:26,574 --> 00:43:30,632
that is part of our process of being human

1091
00:43:30,632 --> 00:43:32,408
that can somehow get's torn,

1092
00:43:32,408 --> 00:43:37,968
through racism, or classism, or sexism, or homophobia.

1093
00:43:37,968 --> 00:43:42,417
Hackman: I, you know, I... it's a... kind of a number

1094
00:43:42,417 --> 00:43:45,591
of answers to this, so I'll try to sort them out.

1095
00:43:45,591 --> 00:43:47,882
I do think that exactly what we were describing

1096
00:43:47,882 --> 00:43:50,404
is that there is a split, you know,

1097
00:43:50,404 --> 00:43:52,893
to go to church in the morning

1098
00:43:52,893 --> 00:43:54,070
in the white South.

1099
00:43:54,070 --> 00:43:55,394
And then to go to a lynching

1100
00:43:55,394 --> 00:43:57,228
with your family that afternoon

1101
00:43:57,228 --> 00:43:57,728
Adams: Picnic!

1102
00:43:57,728 --> 00:43:58,581
Hackman: as entertainment.

1103
00:43:58,581 --> 00:43:59,960
Adams: Picnic!

1104
00:43:59,960 --> 00:44:01,592
Hackman: Requires, exactly, requires

1105
00:44:01,592 --> 00:44:03,338
something to be torn away.

1106
00:44:03,338 --> 00:44:07,199
And... and it's difficult to collude

1107
00:44:07,199 --> 00:44:09,180
with oppression while your busy being

1108
00:44:09,180 --> 00:44:10,978
empathetic to the group that you're with.

1109
00:44:10,978 --> 00:44:12,785
So one of the components of oppression,

1110
00:44:12,785 --> 00:44:15,310
is it strips away the dominant groups

1111
00:44:15,310 --> 00:44:16,930
ability to do that for sure.

1112
00:44:16,930 --> 00:44:19,827
But i also think... I've been doing some workshops

1113
00:44:19,827 --> 00:44:22,692
with a colleague up in Minneapolis

1114
00:44:22,692 --> 00:44:24,594
entitled "More Than Skin Deep

1115
00:44:24,594 --> 00:44:25,989
Dismantling White Supremacy

1116
00:44:25,989 --> 00:44:27,261
One Cell At A Time."

1117
00:44:27,261 --> 00:44:30,698
And she and I are kind of moving into looking at

1118
00:44:30,698 --> 00:44:33,103
in addition to lots of ways of looking at issues

1119
00:44:33,103 --> 00:44:34,898
of race and racism that I've already discribed.

1120
00:44:34,898 --> 00:44:37,396
Looking at the issue of trauma,

1121
00:44:37,396 --> 00:44:40,528
and Dr. Joy DeGruy talks about, you know,

1122
00:44:40,528 --> 00:44:43,782
post-traumatic slave syndrome in her book,

1123
00:44:43,782 --> 00:44:47,845
and What does that mean, and how have white folks

1124
00:44:47,845 --> 00:44:50,264
been traumatized by the structures

1125
00:44:50,264 --> 00:44:51,876
of racism and white supremacy.

1126
00:44:51,876 --> 00:44:54,493
And let me be very clear, I'm not equalizing

1127
00:44:54,493 --> 00:44:57,895
in this moment, and so the one way

1128
00:44:57,895 --> 00:45:00,209
that super-whitey can recenter itself

1129
00:45:00,209 --> 00:45:03,319
is to say, oh yeah, I've been hurt by racism to

1130
00:45:03,319 --> 00:45:04,519
so it must go both ways.

1131
00:45:04,519 --> 00:45:05,861
No! it doesn't [hand jester]

1132
00:45:05,861 --> 00:45:07,229
let me be very clear about that.

1133
00:45:07,229 --> 00:45:11,200
However, what allows white people to have that split?

1134
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,711
What allows me to turn away?

1135
00:45:13,711 --> 00:45:16,310
What allows me to say, oh no, I was just joking?

1136
00:45:16,310 --> 00:45:18,729
You know, what gets in the way of me being able

1137
00:45:18,729 --> 00:45:20,210
to meet you with my heart?

1138
00:45:20,210 --> 00:45:23,562
And so were exploring this idea of trauma,

1139
00:45:23,562 --> 00:45:27,512
and how, you know, kind of core survival responses

1140
00:45:27,512 --> 00:45:30,763
get triggered in a racist environment.

1141
00:45:30,763 --> 00:45:33,796
For folks of color those core survival responses

1142
00:45:33,796 --> 00:45:38,461
are such that, it, it creates this constant level of stress.

1143
00:45:38,461 --> 00:45:39,929
Which if you look at the you know

1144
00:45:39,929 --> 00:45:42,062
National Health Care Disparities report

1145
00:45:42,062 --> 00:45:44,063
that just came out this year... 2010.

1146
00:45:44,063 --> 00:45:46,367
You can see that even when you

1147
00:45:46,367 --> 00:45:48,578
mitigated for class communities of color

1148
00:45:48,578 --> 00:45:50,181
have higher rates of heart disease,

1149
00:45:50,181 --> 00:45:54,562
higher risk of death, blah, blah, blah,... than white people.

1150
00:45:54,562 --> 00:45:56,779
So it's not just access to insurance.

1151
00:45:56,779 --> 00:45:59,063
Because when you get class out of the way,

1152
00:45:59,063 --> 00:46:00,745
you get insurance out of the way,

1153
00:46:00,745 --> 00:46:02,629
racism is having a physical toil

1154
00:46:02,629 --> 00:46:04,163
on the people of color.

1155
00:46:04,163 --> 00:46:05,830
And so what we get to see is that it does

1156
00:46:05,830 --> 00:46:07,496
have physical manifestation.

1157
00:46:07,496 --> 00:46:10,423
So what are the physical manifestation for white people.

1158
00:46:10,423 --> 00:46:12,948
It's a tearing of our humanity.

1159
00:46:12,948 --> 00:46:15,674
What does that do? What does that do?

1160
00:46:15,674 --> 00:46:18,079
And so were exploring through kind of looking

1161
00:46:18,079 --> 00:46:21,329
at mechanism of trauma, and survival responses.

1162
00:46:21,329 --> 00:46:24,065
How have white folks been socialized,

1163
00:46:24,065 --> 00:46:25,712
and traumatized in such a way by race

1164
00:46:25,712 --> 00:46:30,814
that I have been deluded to think that my survival, [hand jester]

1165
00:46:30,814 --> 00:46:33,689
depends on maintaining racism and whiteness.

1166
00:46:33,689 --> 00:46:36,264
When in point in fact, this system is killing me.

1167
00:46:36,264 --> 00:46:39,697
It's killing you, it's killing all of us, in this society .

1168
00:46:39,697 --> 00:46:42,564
And so getting down to deeper

1169
00:46:42,564 --> 00:46:44,690
causes and conditions biological,

1170
00:46:44,690 --> 00:46:48,169
physiological causes and conditions

1171
00:46:48,169 --> 00:46:50,553
of racism in white people.

1172
00:46:50,553 --> 00:46:52,927
Is one pathway to begin to explore

1173
00:46:52,927 --> 00:46:54,858
what have I lost in my ability

1174
00:46:54,858 --> 00:46:56,886
to engage in the moment.

1175
00:46:56,886 --> 00:46:58,956
That kind of trauma explanation

1176
00:46:58,956 --> 00:47:00,447
helps us to understand why you can have

1177
00:47:00,447 --> 00:47:02,414
very well educated white people

1178
00:47:02,414 --> 00:47:04,099
I've read everything about white privilege,

1179
00:47:04,099 --> 00:47:06,191
in fact, I teach a class on white privilege.

1180
00:47:06,191 --> 00:47:08,254
I'm sitting in a meeting, you know,

1181
00:47:08,254 --> 00:47:09,765
a department meeting or something,

1182
00:47:09,765 --> 00:47:13,164
and some racist comment goes down and I freeze.

1183
00:47:13,164 --> 00:47:15,366
So here I am... like this big [mouth jester]

1184
00:47:15,366 --> 00:47:18,399
about whiteness. And yet this moment comes,

1185
00:47:18,399 --> 00:47:21,065
and I panic, and I freeze, and so

1186
00:47:21,065 --> 00:47:22,796
the trauma piece explains that

1187
00:47:22,796 --> 00:47:24,314
because trauma is in the frog brain,

1188
00:47:24,314 --> 00:47:26,369
survival responses are back here [hand jester]

1189
00:47:26,369 --> 00:47:28,016
and all my reading is up hear ][hand jester].

1190
00:47:28,016 --> 00:47:30,049
And then those terrifying moments,

1191
00:47:30,049 --> 00:47:32,349
tense moments, I go [hand jester] back here.

1192
00:47:32,349 --> 00:47:34,623
And so the trauma piece helps us

1193
00:47:34,623 --> 00:47:37,182
not resocialize, and re-educate

1194
00:47:37,182 --> 00:47:42,066
in just this way, but it helps us to reach back to the lie

1195
00:47:42,066 --> 00:47:44,290
that my survival really depends

1196
00:47:44,290 --> 00:47:46,264
on maintaining racism and whiteness,

1197
00:47:46,264 --> 00:47:48,493
and you can rewire that too.

1198
00:47:48,493 --> 00:47:50,380
We can rewire how we've been

1199
00:47:50,380 --> 00:47:51,997
brought up as white people.

1200
00:47:51,997 --> 00:47:55,364
And that will allow me to more effectively

1201
00:47:55,364 --> 00:47:58,150
work in the service of ending racism..

1202
00:47:58,150 --> 00:47:59,581
Because in those tense moments

1203
00:47:59,581 --> 00:48:01,532
I'll not only have some information to bear,

1204
00:48:01,532 --> 00:48:04,101
but I'll have checked myself, and I'll stay in the room.

1205
00:48:04,101 --> 00:48:04,771
Adams: Yeah.

1206
00:48:04,771 --> 00:48:08,914
Hackman: And I'll say woe, look I'm freaking out... don't leave.

1207
00:48:08,914 --> 00:48:10,747
Instead I'll say something.

1208
00:48:10,747 --> 00:48:11,932
Adams: What immediately came to mind

1209
00:48:11,932 --> 00:48:15,469
when you articulated that was.

1210
00:48:15,469 --> 00:48:20,134
The absolute discomfort that affirmative action

1211
00:48:20,134 --> 00:48:22,831
has for white people.

1212
00:48:22,831 --> 00:48:24,733
They can get five minutes of it,

1213
00:48:24,733 --> 00:48:28,509
and be screaming... okay.

1214
00:48:28,509 --> 00:48:31,317
But oppressed groups, people of color, women, and so forth

1215
00:48:31,317 --> 00:48:34,633
had to endure it for hundreds of years.

1216
00:48:34,633 --> 00:48:41,185
Five minutes, they freak out, this is totally un-just... Yes!

1217
00:48:41,185 --> 00:48:45,148
Hackman: Yeah... well I think there's a couple pieces

1218
00:48:45,148 --> 00:48:46,031
about affirmative action.

1219
00:48:46,031 --> 00:48:48,766
One is I get to look at, go to the Bureau of Labor,

1220
00:48:48,766 --> 00:48:49,899
and look at the stats around,

1221
00:48:49,899 --> 00:48:51,017
and the primary beneficiaries

1222
00:48:51,017 --> 00:48:52,929
of affirmative legislation has been

1223
00:48:52,929 --> 00:48:54,195
middle-class white women,

1224
00:48:54,195 --> 00:48:55,862
have not people of color.

1225
00:48:55,862 --> 00:48:58,575
So while I'm all jacked up about [hand jester] wah, wah, wah, wah.

1226
00:48:58,575 --> 00:49:01,187
I got my job because of affirmative action.

1227
00:49:01,187 --> 00:49:02,767
So, I have to be honest about that.

1228
00:49:02,767 --> 00:49:06,183
The second piece though is to complicate

1229
00:49:06,183 --> 00:49:08,045
the understanding of affirmative action.

1230
00:49:08,045 --> 00:49:09,662
Such that I put white privilege,

1231
00:49:09,662 --> 00:49:12,066
and white supremacy into the equation.

1232
00:49:12,066 --> 00:49:12,984
And I have students do a race,

1233
00:49:12,984 --> 00:49:14,522
and cultural analysis paper.

1234
00:49:14,522 --> 00:49:16,017
And I say, well tell me where your family came from,

1235
00:49:16,017 --> 00:49:17,816
what's your capitol "C" culture,

1236
00:49:17,816 --> 00:49:18,814
what you got going on there?

1237
00:49:18,814 --> 00:49:19,658
And their like, uh... I don't know,

1238
00:49:19,658 --> 00:49:21,318
but then they dig around, and they go back,

1239
00:49:21,318 --> 00:49:23,110
and they realize that, you know their... their

1240
00:49:23,110 --> 00:49:25,638
half German, and their German great, great,

1241
00:49:25,638 --> 00:49:27,363
grand parents came to Iowa,

1242
00:49:27,363 --> 00:49:31,216
and farmed 8 days a week for 40 hours a day,

1243
00:49:31,216 --> 00:49:33,066
you know, it snowed all year round then,

1244
00:49:33,066 --> 00:49:35,410
and it was horrible, you know, all this struggle,

1245
00:49:35,410 --> 00:49:36,567
and this and that.

1246
00:49:36,567 --> 00:49:38,673
Or lest say it was in Minnesota,

1247
00:49:38,673 --> 00:49:41,839
and they got this farm in 1862.

1248
00:49:41,839 --> 00:49:44,281
And I say, on my feedback,

1249
00:49:44,281 --> 00:49:46,685
what happened in 1862 do you think?

1250
00:49:46,685 --> 00:49:48,603
What happened was, you know,

1251
00:49:48,603 --> 00:49:50,483
in this State of Minnesota, is that, varies governors

1252
00:49:50,483 --> 00:49:53,799
just took all this land wanted to make sure

1253
00:49:53,799 --> 00:49:56,166
it populated quickly with white people, and so

1254
00:49:56,166 --> 00:49:58,667
sold it at basement prices... right.

1255
00:49:58,667 --> 00:49:59,900
And so then you ask the question

1256
00:49:59,900 --> 00:50:01,433
how did your family get that farm

1257
00:50:01,433 --> 00:50:02,799
with no money as immigrants

1258
00:50:02,799 --> 00:50:05,466
that's an amazing trick... like

1259
00:50:05,466 --> 00:50:08,035
tell me how that works, and I might, you know, get into that.

1260
00:50:08,035 --> 00:50:11,340
Then what they identify is, well this happened.

1261
00:50:11,340 --> 00:50:13,390
I'm like, well who's land was it? well how did that happen?

1262
00:50:13,390 --> 00:50:16,231
As you trace the history back, I start to see

1263
00:50:16,231 --> 00:50:17,821
that everything that I've got

1264
00:50:17,821 --> 00:50:20,734
comes as a result of affirmative action at the hands of

1265
00:50:20,734 --> 00:50:22,482
white privilege, and white supremacy,

1266
00:50:22,482 --> 00:50:25,017
and so there's a way that we take the legislation

1267
00:50:25,017 --> 00:50:28,722
out of the small niche of that, and broaden it, so that

1268
00:50:28,722 --> 00:50:31,233
white people have to really become responsible.

1269
00:50:31,233 --> 00:50:32,666
Again, not guilty and shameful

1270
00:50:32,666 --> 00:50:33,851
that's not terrible useful.

1271
00:50:33,851 --> 00:50:37,151
But what would it mean if I'm responsible around it?

1272
00:50:37,151 --> 00:50:38,520
What would it mean?

1273
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:40,069
Maybe it means I give the land back.

1274
00:50:40,069 --> 00:50:45,703
There's a great book by Dr. Waziyatawin who

1275
00:50:45,703 --> 00:50:48,250
the title of the book is "What Does Justice Look Like."

1276
00:50:48,250 --> 00:50:50,998
And her suggestion as an indigenous women in Minnesota.

1277
00:50:50,998 --> 00:50:53,769
Is give all the state land back.

1278
00:50:53,769 --> 00:50:55,251
Every state park give it back,

1279
00:50:55,251 --> 00:50:56,683
but before you give it back,

1280
00:50:56,683 --> 00:50:58,179
you need to clean it up!

1281
00:50:58,179 --> 00:50:59,551
You got to return it in the condition

1282
00:50:59,551 --> 00:51:00,882
that you found it... right!

1283
00:51:00,882 --> 00:51:01,583
Adams: Nice!

1284
00:51:01,583 --> 00:51:04,568
Hackman: And so, give it back! Give those 11 million acres back.

1285
00:51:04,568 --> 00:51:08,129
I think to myself... that's not a bad idea actually.

1286
00:51:08,129 --> 00:51:10,215
It's not a bad idea, it's about making a mends,

1287
00:51:10,215 --> 00:51:12,168
and so when the United States Congress

1288
00:51:12,168 --> 00:51:15,371
was about to, you know, pass some kind of resolution

1289
00:51:15,371 --> 00:51:17,169
not a law or anything, but a resolution.

1290
00:51:17,169 --> 00:51:19,069
I think it was toward the Turkish government

1291
00:51:19,069 --> 00:51:20,735
about Armenian Genocide.

1292
00:51:20,735 --> 00:51:24,051
The European press said, you know, "It's fascinating

1293
00:51:24,051 --> 00:51:25,606
that your concerned about genocide,

1294
00:51:25,606 --> 00:51:28,553
you know, were just curious, what are you doing about,

1295
00:51:28,553 --> 00:51:30,250
you know, American Indian Genocide?"

1296
00:51:30,250 --> 00:51:32,652
And quickly congress said... well we don't have time

1297
00:51:32,652 --> 00:51:33,750
to talk about that right now, you know,

1298
00:51:33,750 --> 00:51:35,486
and they dropped it! They dropped it!

1299
00:51:35,486 --> 00:51:38,415
And so it does it begs the question of

1300
00:51:38,415 --> 00:51:39,536
when we learn the true history

1301
00:51:39,536 --> 00:51:40,885
what do we do about it?

1302
00:51:40,885 --> 00:51:41,852
And more than just apologizing

1303
00:51:41,852 --> 00:51:44,772
we have the capacity, as a white dominant society

1304
00:51:44,772 --> 00:51:47,001
to make amends, and set it right.

1305
00:51:47,001 --> 00:51:48,036
Adams: Hard for us!

1306
00:51:48,036 --> 00:51:48,937
Hackman: Yeah!

1307
00:51:48,937 --> 00:51:55,701
Adams: You know, hard for us.

1308
00:51:55,701 --> 00:51:59,414
So much to talk about let, let's go

1309
00:51:59,414 --> 00:52:01,586
a little bit back to the P12's,

1310
00:52:01,586 --> 00:52:07,018
and talk about children, and what messages

1311
00:52:07,018 --> 00:52:10,790
we need to be sending to them as early as possible.

1312
00:52:10,790 --> 00:52:13,454
One about getting the history straight.

1313
00:52:13,454 --> 00:52:16,517
And then second their responsibility

1314
00:52:16,517 --> 00:52:18,417
to live a life that has social justice

1315
00:52:18,417 --> 00:52:19,170
Hackman: Yeah.

1316
00:52:19,170 --> 00:52:24,224
Adams: as a core value? How do we do that one?

1317
00:52:24,224 --> 00:52:27,443
Hackman: Um... I think it's more than just a...

1318
00:52:27,443 --> 00:52:29,770
some kind of a casual kum ba yah type of mements.

1319
00:52:29,770 --> 00:52:31,994
I think it's really more about

1320
00:52:31,994 --> 00:52:36,800
embedding care, and concern for others,

1321
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:40,754
and not just [hand jester] kind of, I like you.

1322
00:52:40,754 --> 00:52:43,085
But care and concern as we understand

1323
00:52:43,085 --> 00:52:44,419
the relationship to resources,

1324
00:52:44,419 --> 00:52:47,552
and as we understand the relationship to community.

1325
00:52:47,552 --> 00:52:50,271
Deeply embed that in the ways

1326
00:52:50,271 --> 00:52:53,001
that we engage with young people in society.

1327
00:52:53,001 --> 00:52:57,001
And so what that produces then is a hunger

1328
00:52:57,001 --> 00:53:00,973
for justice, more than the seductive

1329
00:53:00,973 --> 00:53:03,021
privileges of oppression.

1330
00:53:03,021 --> 00:53:06,535
And so if we can embed those kinds of principles

1331
00:53:06,535 --> 00:53:09,150
in early education, and I often say,

1332
00:53:09,150 --> 00:53:10,987
cause I think there's a little bit of bias

1333
00:53:10,987 --> 00:53:13,688
in P12, were secondary folks are like

1334
00:53:13,688 --> 00:53:16,529
WELL [hand jester] REAL EDUCATION HAPPENS IN HIGH SCHOOL!

1335
00:53:16,529 --> 00:53:17,653
You know, and their like yeah!

1336
00:53:17,653 --> 00:53:19,760
My analogy to that is that would be like saying

1337
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:21,771
eat McDonald's until ninth grade.

1338
00:53:21,771 --> 00:53:23,896
Like subsist on nothing but McDonald's,

1339
00:53:23,896 --> 00:53:26,320
and then worry about your diet when your fourteen.

1340
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:28,892
Like, you'll be five hundred pounds with heart disease

1341
00:53:28,892 --> 00:53:32,003
a fourteen year old, and so that's ridiculous.

1342
00:53:32,003 --> 00:53:33,691
We need to worry about it from the get go.

1343
00:53:33,691 --> 00:53:35,423
We need to worry about these issues,

1344
00:53:35,423 --> 00:53:37,456
about how to deeply, and thoughtfully, and critically

1345
00:53:37,456 --> 00:53:39,254
educate young people from the get go.

1346
00:53:39,254 --> 00:53:42,137
And those are about, not just about care

1347
00:53:42,137 --> 00:53:43,855
in a white liberal sense.

1348
00:53:43,855 --> 00:53:47,633
White liberalism is were, I feel so bad for those people.

1349
00:53:47,633 --> 00:53:49,621
I'm gonna go save those people.

1350
00:53:49,621 --> 00:53:51,105
Instead what were doing is were recognizing

1351
00:53:51,105 --> 00:53:56,539
that my core humanity, is directly tied to yours.

1352
00:53:56,539 --> 00:53:57,871
We are in this boat together,

1353
00:53:57,871 --> 00:54:01,072
so what happens to you does happen to me.

1354
00:54:01,072 --> 00:54:03,237
We engender that with young people

1355
00:54:03,237 --> 00:54:05,338
with deeper conversations about

1356
00:54:05,338 --> 00:54:08,003
social responsibility, about different ways

1357
00:54:08,003 --> 00:54:10,859
of shaping community, and inter, and being interdependent.

1358
00:54:10,859 --> 00:54:13,486
Not independent, but interdependent.

1359
00:54:13,486 --> 00:54:15,255
We start to ask questions about resources.

1360
00:54:15,255 --> 00:54:18,356
I'm not going to give a kindergartner a lecture on

1361
00:54:18,356 --> 00:54:21,369
multinational corporations and, you know,

1362
00:54:21,369 --> 00:54:22,855
class structure in the United States.

1363
00:54:22,855 --> 00:54:27,485
I am going to say: If everybody has enough everybody does better.

1364
00:54:27,485 --> 00:54:29,905
Everybody does better when we all do better.

1365
00:54:29,905 --> 00:54:31,737
And now I'm going to get critics

1366
00:54:31,737 --> 00:54:33,456
your a communist, I'm not saying

1367
00:54:33,456 --> 00:54:35,777
that social justice education doesn't say

1368
00:54:35,777 --> 00:54:37,387
everybody's got to have the same.

1369
00:54:37,387 --> 00:54:39,771
It says: Everybody needs to have enough to be okay.

1370
00:54:39,771 --> 00:54:41,737
Then if you want your big mansion

1371
00:54:41,737 --> 00:54:43,655
I guess you can have that, that's fine.

1372
00:54:43,655 --> 00:54:45,867
But not at the expense of some schools

1373
00:54:45,867 --> 00:54:47,640
not having books in their schools.

1374
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:48,994
It's totally unacceptable,

1375
00:54:48,994 --> 00:54:51,092
and it's an uncivilized way to live.

1376
00:54:51,092 --> 00:54:52,753
And so let's find an humane base line.

1377
00:54:52,753 --> 00:54:54,288
Everybody can take books home.

1378
00:54:54,288 --> 00:54:56,575
Everybody can you know blah, blah, blah, blah , blah.

1379
00:54:56,575 --> 00:54:57,872
And then anything above that,

1380
00:54:57,872 --> 00:54:59,857
if you can achieve that go right ahead.

1381
00:54:59,857 --> 00:55:02,940
But we will never have success in this society

1382
00:55:02,940 --> 00:55:05,504
at the expense of the base humanity of other people.

1383
00:55:05,504 --> 00:55:08,006
So when we talk about resources to young people

1384
00:55:08,006 --> 00:55:10,338
we talk about what's the humane baseline?

1385
00:55:10,338 --> 00:55:12,688
And how will we make sure everyone has enough?

1386
00:55:12,688 --> 00:55:15,689
And then so you can actualize, and achieve

1387
00:55:15,689 --> 00:55:17,191
to your fullest potential.

1388
00:55:17,191 --> 00:55:18,402
But your not going to do well

1389
00:55:18,402 --> 00:55:20,017
if you hadn't eaten that day.

1390
00:55:20,017 --> 00:55:20,517
Adams: Yes!

1391
00:55:20,517 --> 00:55:21,921
Hackman: One of my classes you know,

1392
00:55:21,921 --> 00:55:24,022
I acknowledged that 3 out of 10 people

1393
00:55:24,022 --> 00:55:25,818
identify, and gender present as women

1394
00:55:25,818 --> 00:55:27,191
have active eating disorders.

1395
00:55:27,191 --> 00:55:29,216
So I'm really clear about that, but I say,

1396
00:55:29,216 --> 00:55:31,772
you know, if on reflection for yourself

1397
00:55:31,772 --> 00:55:32,907
your not one of those people.

1398
00:55:32,907 --> 00:55:34,804
And I usually teach classes

1399
00:55:34,804 --> 00:55:36,942
in the late morning in the afternoon.

1400
00:55:36,942 --> 00:55:40,637
I say don't eat before class, don't eat a thing

1401
00:55:40,637 --> 00:55:42,505
before you come to class

1402
00:55:42,505 --> 00:55:44,240
on the next class period.

1403
00:55:44,240 --> 00:55:46,358
And were going to see how well you do, you know,

1404
00:55:46,358 --> 00:55:48,615
and so have experience of understanding

1405
00:55:48,615 --> 00:55:50,785
a lack of resources, if you don't already have that.

1406
00:55:50,785 --> 00:55:52,372
Maybe you come from a class background

1407
00:55:52,372 --> 00:55:54,096
were you actually do have that.

1408
00:55:54,096 --> 00:55:56,658
But if you're sitting here not understanding

1409
00:55:56,658 --> 00:55:58,625
why those people can't eat, or why those people

1410
00:55:58,625 --> 00:56:01,204
can't do well on test. Then put yourself

1411
00:56:01,204 --> 00:56:05,424
in that position for just a minute, and look at what happens

1412
00:56:05,424 --> 00:56:08,929
to your cognitive capacity when your blood sugar is that low.

1413
00:56:08,929 --> 00:56:11,607
When you haven't been well fed that day.

1414
00:56:11,607 --> 00:56:13,878
And so what would it mean for all of our achievement.

1415
00:56:13,878 --> 00:56:16,001
If we just made sure everybody had enough food.

1416
00:56:16,001 --> 00:56:18,005
And so with young people we talk about

1417
00:56:18,005 --> 00:56:20,072
community and interdependence,

1418
00:56:20,072 --> 00:56:21,698
we talk about social justice values,

1419
00:56:21,698 --> 00:56:24,882
we talk about those kinds of things and embed that.

1420
00:56:24,882 --> 00:56:27,523
The challenge for every school that tries to do that.

1421
00:56:27,523 --> 00:56:30,189
Is you're going to be accused of being a communist.

1422
00:56:30,189 --> 00:56:32,723
You know, that anti American.. rugged individualism.

1423
00:56:32,723 --> 00:56:34,556
I have lots of students who say

1424
00:56:34,556 --> 00:56:37,257
I'm an individual, you know, I don't like this group

1425
00:56:37,257 --> 00:56:38,587
think crap your putting out there,

1426
00:56:38,587 --> 00:56:39,757
I'm like fair enough.

1427
00:56:39,757 --> 00:56:41,055
So you are an individual,

1428
00:56:41,055 --> 00:56:42,278
you have achieved everything all by yourself?

1429
00:56:42,278 --> 00:56:44,540
And their like, heck yeah! I'm like

1430
00:56:44,540 --> 00:56:46,574
so you failed the tree, made the paper,

1431
00:56:46,574 --> 00:56:49,740
printed that book that your reading

1432
00:56:49,740 --> 00:56:51,573
like that's astounding that you had time

1433
00:56:51,573 --> 00:56:53,274
to do that and I'm grateful that you did it

1434
00:56:53,274 --> 00:56:54,239
cause I like that book too.

1435
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:57,322
You know, and so you grew the food you ate this morning?

1436
00:56:57,322 --> 00:57:00,825
And you, you know, mined the... drilled the oil

1437
00:57:00,825 --> 00:57:01,457
that made it blah, blah, blah.

1438
00:57:01,457 --> 00:57:02,792
And no they haven't, they haven't.

1439
00:57:02,792 --> 00:57:06,289
So the illusion of rugged individualism is just that!

1440
00:57:06,289 --> 00:57:09,691
It's an illusion... were deeply interdependent society.

1441
00:57:09,691 --> 00:57:12,086
So, let's be honest with the peewees about that,

1442
00:57:12,086 --> 00:57:14,558
and help them learn to act in such a way.

1443
00:57:14,558 --> 00:57:16,773
again it doesn't mean were all calling

1444
00:57:16,773 --> 00:57:19,123
each other Conrade or something like that.

1445
00:57:19,123 --> 00:57:21,240
What it means is, were walking around

1446
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:23,243
knowing that everybody has enough.

1447
00:57:23,243 --> 00:57:24,240
When everybody has enough

1448
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:27,506
that makes a society far more safe and secured.

1449
00:57:27,506 --> 00:57:30,158
Far more productive, and far happier,

1450
00:57:30,158 --> 00:57:33,137
we just are happier people, healthier people.

1451
00:57:33,137 --> 00:57:35,026
Adams: Yeah, and that's reestablishing

1452
00:57:35,026 --> 00:57:37,812
that connections back to our empathy.

1453
00:57:37,812 --> 00:57:39,081
Hackman: Yeah!

1454
00:57:39,081 --> 00:57:41,724
Adams: Were we can really truly see

1455
00:57:41,724 --> 00:57:45,867
people as connected to us as brothers and sisters.

1456
00:57:45,867 --> 00:57:47,034
I mean there's something about that

1457
00:57:47,034 --> 00:57:48,494
I really like a lot.

1458
00:57:48,494 --> 00:57:50,505
Hackman: Yeah, I do to.

1459
00:57:50,505 --> 00:57:51,488
Adams: And... I use it a lot and sometimes

1460
00:57:51,488 --> 00:57:53,876
I disarm people, you know, and they say

1461
00:57:53,876 --> 00:57:55,611
whew I thought you only called

1462
00:57:55,611 --> 00:57:57,709
people of color your brothers and sisters.

1463
00:57:57,709 --> 00:58:02,162
Well, you look my brother and sister too, you know,

1464
00:58:02,162 --> 00:58:05,855
If we can get used to that

1465
00:58:05,855 --> 00:58:08,574
we have a much better chance of easing

1466
00:58:08,574 --> 00:58:13,482
some of this distress that exist in the planet.

1467
00:58:13,482 --> 00:58:17,885
Anything you like to add before we wrap this up?

1468
00:58:17,885 --> 00:58:21,610
Hackman: Well, just a couple thoughts.

1469
00:58:21,610 --> 00:58:24,893
One is that I think that many times

1470
00:58:24,893 --> 00:58:29,108
when we look at critical issues like these

1471
00:58:29,108 --> 00:58:33,245
we kind of turn our eye toward P12's,

1472
00:58:33,245 --> 00:58:36,042
and I actually turned much of my frustration

1473
00:58:36,042 --> 00:58:37,930
toward teacher education.

1474
00:58:37,930 --> 00:58:41,738
In that we are, in my opinion, and from what I have read.

1475
00:58:41,738 --> 00:58:45,541
Willfully behind, the realities of whats

1476
00:58:45,541 --> 00:58:47,875
on the ground in our public schools.

1477
00:58:47,875 --> 00:58:50,527
And so I have some interesting experiences

1478
00:58:50,527 --> 00:58:52,526
with other colleagues in teacher education

1479
00:58:52,526 --> 00:58:54,610
who actually find what I teach, and what you teach

1480
00:58:54,610 --> 00:58:56,096
to be completely irrelevant

1481
00:58:56,096 --> 00:58:56,596
Adams: Yes.

1482
00:58:56,596 --> 00:58:58,492
Hackman: and a waste of time.

1483
00:58:58,492 --> 00:59:00,259
That is such out dated thinking,

1484
00:59:00,259 --> 00:59:01,249
and we don't even have time for that.

1485
00:59:01,249 --> 00:59:07,225
I mean it's just... it's such an unbelievable conversation in 2011.

1486
00:59:07,225 --> 00:59:09,743
And so I guess that one thing I would say

1487
00:59:09,743 --> 00:59:11,842
is to put a call to teacher education,

1488
00:59:11,842 --> 00:59:13,842
and say in simple terms

1489
00:59:13,842 --> 00:59:15,866
can you get with the program here... honestly.

1490
00:59:15,866 --> 00:59:18,812
Get with what's the reality of this society,

1491
00:59:18,812 --> 00:59:22,576
and learn to embed, social justice issues

1492
00:59:22,576 --> 00:59:25,230
in every aspect of teacher education,

1493
00:59:25,230 --> 00:59:26,759
and prepare what is still a majority

1494
00:59:26,759 --> 00:59:30,091
white teaching force, to be far more aware,

1495
00:59:30,091 --> 00:59:32,475
culturally competent, and critically able

1496
00:59:32,475 --> 00:59:35,075
to address issues of racism, sexism,

1497
00:59:35,075 --> 00:59:37,838
hetero-sexism, homophobia in our schools. .

1498
00:59:37,838 --> 00:59:40,076
If we made a mass movement

1499
00:59:40,076 --> 00:59:42,059
in teacher education in that direction.

1500
00:59:42,059 --> 00:59:44,577
Then we would find some profound change

1501
00:59:44,577 --> 00:59:45,976
happening in our schools.

1502
00:59:45,976 --> 00:59:48,477
Profound change, but as long as we allow

1503
00:59:48,477 --> 00:59:49,943
Teacher-Ed to be a little bit

1504
00:59:49,943 --> 00:59:51,943
behind the curve in theses issues,

1505
00:59:51,943 --> 00:59:54,326
and don't prepare teachers for it,

1506
00:59:54,326 --> 00:59:56,494
and then have a vastly changing,

1507
00:59:56,494 --> 00:59:59,330
dramatically changing student, and family demographic,

1508
00:59:59,330 --> 01:00:01,661
that has a different set of needs.

1509
01:00:01,661 --> 01:00:05,536
Then, and then blame public education for it,

1510
01:00:05,536 --> 01:00:07,177
without looking at Teacher-Ed

1511
01:00:07,177 --> 01:00:09,222
we will forever be struggling with the same issues,

1512
01:00:09,222 --> 01:00:12,663
again, and again, and again and we will lose,

1513
01:00:12,663 --> 01:00:16,047
we will lose an enormous amount of human capital.

1514
01:00:16,047 --> 01:00:18,911
Enormous amount of human capital!

1515
01:00:18,911 --> 01:00:21,767
So yeah! I quest I would, my last words would be...

1516
01:00:21,767 --> 01:00:24,523
kind of, a call to Teacher-Ed

1517
01:00:24,523 --> 01:00:25,696
to step up more [head jester].

1518
01:00:25,696 --> 01:00:27,892
Adams: Outstanding! Thank you very much!

1519
01:00:27,892 --> 01:00:29,920
Hackman: Cool! Thank you! Thanks a lot!

1520
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:31,162
It's good to be here!

1521
01:00:31,162 --> 01:00:32,807
[Music Bridge]

1522
01:00:32,807 --> 01:00:36,192
Text: Researcher and Interviewer

1523
01:00:36,192 --> 01:00:39,940
Dr. J. Q. Adams Western Illinois University

1524
01:00:39,940 --> 01:00:41,262
Producer

1525
01:00:41,262 --> 01:00:43,144
Dr. Janice R. Welsch

1526
01:00:43,144 --> 01:00:46,473
Western Illinois University

1527
01:00:46,473 --> 01:00:47,753
[Music Bridge]

1528
01:00:47,753 --> 01:00:52,349
Text: Special Thanks to Dr. Heather W. Hackman

1529
01:00:52,349 --> 01:00:55,063
[Music Bridge]

1530
01:00:55,063 --> 01:01:02,599
Credits: Director/Editor Mark A. Dial

1531
01:01:02,599 --> 01:01:04,884
Production Facilities provided by

1532
01:01:04,884 --> 01:01:09,991
University Television Wester Illinois University

1533
01:01:09,991 --> 01:01:13,369
Funding Provided by California Community Foundation

1534
01:01:13,369 --> 01:01:15,574
Illinois Association of Cultural Diversity

1535
01:01:15,574 --> 01:01:18,122
Western Illinois University

1536
01:01:18,122 --> 01:01:24,390
Western Illinois University [copyright] 2011

1537
01:01:24,390 --> 01:01:25,651
[Music Bridge]