Text: Interview with Dr. Heather W. Hackman
Human Relations & Multicultural Education
St. Cloud State University
By Dr. J. Q. Adams Educational & Interdisciplinary Studies Western Illinois University
Dr. J. Q. Adams: Good morning we have Dr. Heather Hackman here
and I'd like you to introduce yourself
and share with us some a little bit
about your background, and what you do.
Dr. Heather Hackman: Great! Well first of all
I just want to thank you for having me.
It's a privilege to be here and I have been
following the work that you and Janice
have done for a long time so.
I'm excited to have this conversation.
I teach up at St. Cloud State
in the College of Education, in the
Department of Human Relations and Multicultural,
and I think similar to Illinois.
Minnesota has a Human Relations
Multicultural Educational requirement
for all Teacher-Ed folks
and so, that's the bulk of my teaching load.
I've been there 11 years
and I only meant to stay a couple,
but then you get stuck right... in a good way
stuck in a good way.
And so what I do is, student's from all, all Teacher-Ed
Prep programs comes through that class
and then they go back out to their
Special Ed, Phy Ed, Tech Ed, L-Ed programs.
And so, that again has been the bulk
of my teaching for the least 11 years.
It's a very exciting field and exciting set of content.
It's incredibly frustrating to try and teach
all of that in one semester.
But as time has gone on just in my career
at St. Cloud State.
It's clear that it becomes more, more, and more necessary .
Which is actually what led me to
also do quite a bit of training in schools.
I think I mentioned to you
I do about forty trainings a year.
Primarily focusing on initially on
Diversity verses Cultural Competency
verses Social Justice Education and what the differences
are their all valuable approaches.
But their definitely not the same
and from that, then moving into
how we engage in anti-racist pedagogy.
How we address issues of racism
and white privilege in our schools.
How teachers, staff, and family and all support members
in a school environment can really learn
to address that in an ongoing way.
So, I would say the bulk of my work today
is an even split if you will
between teaching and working with pre-service
and in-service students
and then, time in schools, working with buildings
or whole districts and getting them
to move a little bit around issues
of racism and white privilege.
Adams: Where in the era of Obama
and there are many people who feel, of course,
that race is no longer a major issue.
Hackman: Yeah!
Adams: Can you kind of deconstruct that for us
and talk to us about why your work
now is perhaps even more important
then before Obama?
Hackman: Yeah... yeah you know I think
it's an interesting conversation about the
post-racial environment with Obama.
And my memory is, and correct me if I'm wrong,
Is that once he won the Iowa Caucuses
the amount of anti- or the amount of racist sentiment
directed toward him across the country was pretty profound.
I mean I kept reading in... in small side columns in newspapers
or hearing small stories in the news about effigies
hung from trees on college campuses.
Or effigies of him burned.
Anti-racist sentiment appearing on the dorm
residential hall doors
of students of color etc., etc..
And so, I think it would be interesting
if it was a post racial era.
But in point of fact, what I think it has done
is really raise to the four, the explicit nature
of race in the United States.
And the depth and breathe of the challenges
that this society has around racial justice,
and where it's a, it's a promise yet to be fulfilled.
Were not there yet, and... and the election
of one individual is certainly a step
so I don't mean to dismiss that at all.
I definitely saw the mall
on a very cold day in January
on his inauguration filled with people.
White folks who've been strong allies,
and folks of color from varies
communities of color, so deeply moved
because this was such a monumental day.
A day that many of them said,
I'd never thought I'd see this in my life time.
Adams: I was one of them.
Hackman: Yeah! So, both are true right?
Both are true, it was amazing, amazing moment.
And yet, that single moment,
or that single election,
or that single individual is not enough
to UN-weave the fabric of racism,
and racial injustice in the United States.
It's a step for sure, and it certainly
given us cause for conversation, just with the phrase
"Post-racial in the United States".
So that's been fabulous, and yet
it's not were we need to go
the way that translate into schools.
Is like, you know, on the one hand
many students of color have for generations
sat in US Public P12's,
and not seen themselves in the curriculum.
And so now here's an opportunity
to... for at least one community of color
to say yeah here I am... finally here I am.
And other communities of color can in similar ways say,
yes maybe some different things are possible
in the United States.
So on the one hand, it does change
the landscape of public schools just a little bit,
but on the other hand, our public school curriculum,
our teacher- ed structure, and the structure of
US education structure as a whole.
Has not fundamentally changed
with the election of President Obama.
Adams: Right!
Hackman: And so, that's the issue!
That's the issue that we need to get to.
Is what is the nature of this core structure,
and if were really committed to ending racism,
and challenging white privilege
in the United States.
Then we have to get very serious
about conversations about that structure.
So while curriculum changes are important,
and really valuable, and while the example
of President Obama is such a wonderful example
particularly for a little pee-wees, you know,
they see something very different in their life
this would have been normal.
So while that's so true, and powerful in our schools.
It is also true that we have to address
root causes, and the root structure
of racial inequality in our public schools,
and we haven't done that.
Adams: In your intro you... you differentiated
between a number of delivery systems.
Diversity Approaches, Cultural Competency,
and then your more Anti-racist way.
Hackman: Yeah!
Adams: Can you talk about what differs
between each of those, and why your work,
you think, maybe more salient then the others?
Hackman: Yeah! It's actually kind of the typical
intro lecture that I give. Both in my
Teacher-Ed classes, and often times
when I go into schools.
And so diversity is really fundamentally about
looking at appreciation, awareness
of difference, and that's a good thing.
So I'm not... I'm not dissing on that at all.
It's an very important component
to learning how to live in an, in an, incredibly
diverse along many different aspects in this society.
And so appreciation and awareness
of difference is vital...
it's really vital to our society.
And yet, it's problematic for a couple with reasons
Number one is that it doesn't ever look
at issues of power.
There's no conversation of power
in a conversation about awareness
and appreciation of difference.
And... and so we don't have a race base
achievement gap in our schools
because I don't appreciate you
or you don't appreciate me.
We have a race base achievement gap
in schools because of power and structures.
And so while diversity education,
and diversity programing,
and taking in diversity initiatives in our schools
are incredibly useful for helping us broaden
our... our spectrum of awareness, and understanding.
They don't address the issues of power.
The second issue around diversity education.
Is it's typically used as euphemism for race issues.
And so I encounter a lot of superintendents
or a lot of principles, or teachers
majority white folks.
Who have a hard time using the word race.
Because their afraid that if they
even use the word race
their going to be called racist.
So they use diversity instead
cause it's a... fluffier term it's easy
it just rolls off the tongue... diversity.
And so they like that... they like that.
And so it's often euphemistically used as code for race.
But in point in fact, a true diversity agenda
would really look at racial diversity,
gender diversity, class diversity, disability oppression.
All the social identities that we have in the United States.
It would really address that
And so, and so diversity work is important,
but there are some problematic aspects
that haven't manifest in our schools.
Then you've got Cultural Competency.
Which is fundamentally about
developing a set of skills, and tools,
and again awareness, for me to reach across
cultural lines for me to understand
linguistic differences, cultural differences,
difference in values and beliefs.
And again that could not be more important
at this point in time.
I mean I just saw on CNN this morning
that one of the results from the most recent census was
that the Chicano Latino population
makes up over 50 million people in the US.
That's 1/6 of the US population.
So if I, as a white educator, don't learn and understand
kind of the nuances of language.
If I don't understand the nuances of culture,
and values, and beliefs I'm in some big trouble
in my ability to server students.
So there's, I would never argue that that's important.
The problem is cultural competency often means
on the ground, in schools, on the ground.
It often means that I as a white teacher
learn about that Latino students culture
so I can better help them be more like me.
And so, it's a very subtle... there's a subtle
dynamic of assimilation-ism in cultural
competency conversations.
Because they don't get down to...
again the issue of power.
And so while we have a multicultural society
there are certain identity groups
that also within their cultural identity
have access to structural power.
There are certain groups that don't.
That are continually marginalized.
So I don't get to talk about my cultural identity
as if it exist in a vacuum divorce from power,
and so what often happens again is white teachers
learn all these cultural tools
so that we can help those students
do better on our test.
So we can help them fit better in [hand jester] "our schools."
But it begs a question [hand jester] "who's the our there?."
Of course, it's my frame work, my beliefs, my values.
And so Cultural Competency work
is incredibly important, but again
the issue of power is lost.
So a social justice framework
is all about power and privilege.
Social justice ask questions about access to resources.
It ask who's got what and why?
It demands that we look rigorously
at our history, and say okay
what's led us to this moment?
Were not ahistorical beings although US-rs tend
to have a pretty bad sense of our history.
I've traveled to Europe a couple times
and most European taxi drivers
understand US history and politics
a little bit better then most US-rs do.
Adams: Sadly, but true... sadly, but true!
Hackman: Very interesting, very interesting dynamic!
So a social justice framework
demands a sense of history,
and a sense of understanding
how we got to this moment.
It demands critical thinking.
Which is completely different then just thinking.
Waking up in the morning and saying
I want cereal for breakfast.
Is not critical thinking it's just a thought.
But critical thinking is composed
of three primary components.
It means that I look at issues from multiple
non dominant retrospectives.
Multiple non dominant perspectives.
So the example I always give in class is
that when I was in third grade
I grew up in Vegas.
When I was in third grade Mrs. Schneider
was my homeroom teacher,
and when she talked about kind of,
and were in the West, and when she talked
about the West she called it Westward Expansion.
So that should give you a tip right there right!
Adams: Um Hum!
Hackman: Kind of the school house rock
elbow room conversation.
And she said, you know, they needed more room.
I don't know if she sounded like that
she was a heavy smoker,
there's a good chance that she did.
You know... lots of coffee, lots of cigarettes
And she said they got in their wagons, and they headed west,
and it was cold nights all kinds of survival issues,
and there were a few people there
bam, bam, get them out of the way....
then they got to the ocean
and stuck a flag in, and was like...WOW!!!
And I remember sitting there as a third grader thinking.
That is the most amazing story I have ever heard.
Like what an adventure camping, you know, it was just great!
What she failed to mention
was that there were already a minimum
of 10 million people just on this continent a minimum.
There's 500 plus nation bands and tribes
recognized in North America as a whole.
And so she just left that out... she just left it out.
I don't even know her motivations for doing it.
I don't know if she didn't have the information.
I don't know if she was just to scared.
I don't know if she was just
teaching by the book and sick of teaching.
I don't know what the deal was, but she left it out.
And I don't think had she put it in there
that as a third grader I would have said.
Mrs. Schneider that sounds more like
colonization then westward expansion,
you know, I don't think I would have done that.
But I think what I would have said is what all
third graders probably would have said.
Is raised my little hand, and said,
you know, where did all the people go?
So if there's all those people,
where did they all go? Like what happened?
Now she's faced with the difficult
proposition of talking about genocide
or talking about well, you know, there's only
the US population now is only
two percent indigenous.
She's left with a really hard conversation in her mind.
But it's honest conversation...
and so critical thinking involves looking at issues
from multiple non dominant perspectives.
Asking questions about power and privilege.
It's endemic to a social justice framework
to ask questions about power and privilege.
And rigorous self reflection, were I say,
how do I actually know what I know.
And so, a social justice framework
get's to issues of racism.
Because were looking at multiple perspectives
and asking questions about power
and fundamentally challenging,
and consistently challenging my assumptions
and what I think, I know, about these issues.
It demands that we talk about oppression...
yes... and therefore liberation.
So, if were going to identify what racism is, we have to talk about,
what an anti-racist society looks like.
What can this be with racial liberation
what would it look like?
What would it feel like?
Most white students say um-hum.
Which is really the honest answer... I don't know, I don't know!
But many students of color have an idea.
Just like many people who identify
and gender present as women have a sense of,
what would it be like if I could walk down the street
and not worry about sexual assault.
You know one third of all women in the US
are going to be sexually assaulted
in their life-time.
And so, what would that be like, and there's... it's an farian idea.
The oppressed will liberate the oppressors.
Because the oppressed, understand the nature of oppression,
but they have a sense of who they really are too,
and what it could be like.
But the oppressor only has the oppressive dynamic
that's the only thing they ever know.
And so a social justice framework
looks at critical thinking,
it looks at issues of power and privilege,
and in terms of issues of race, which is what I spend
much of my time consulting on.
It ask questions not just how racism
targets folks of color, but also asks
how white people benefit.
How does this system work as a whole.
Only, you know, not so we can study
that and feel depressed.
But so that we can finally get to a place of,
how do we create a racially just society,
or gender liberated society etc.
Adams: You know you mentioned
the importance of understanding history.
I think that's really one of the key points.
We... we do not do a good job
of helping young people understand history.
Because if you go back to those framers,
and you look at the inconsistencies
in their messages... there's some pretty brilliant people.
They had some good noble ideas,
but their practice, was much different then their ideology.
Especially in terms of obviously, the slave question.
The whole question of identity
when it comes to people
who didn't look like them.
Be it indigenous people, or be it Africans,
and then women, obviously, once again
were talking about creating a republic
democratic ideals, and so forth,
about half your population doesn't have the franchise.
So, it's... it's helping students develop
that understanding of what was in their minds,
you know, how would a Wachee know why
with these ideals, and then this application
which becomes our constitution,
our bill of rights, you know, the beginnings,
and the foundations of this country.
So, how do you do that?
How are you introducing that history
to your students in a way that's
palatable to them, and doesn't chase them out of the room
that makes them want to come back and be engaged?
Hackman: Yeah... that's a great question.
To be honest because I think
there's a particular flavor of history that's taught,
and so that flavor of history
is not just framed as information.
It's framed as the American experience.
The defining framework for how you understand
your existence in this society.
So, to challenge the history, begins to challenge,
and often they respond unconsciously,
but it begins to challenge their identity
as an American, and what does that mean.
And so I actually start by introducing
the conversation about what are your values?
And so, I go to the board,
and I drawl this really goofy thing
that looks like broccoli, but artistic license right,
and so you got a... it's supposed to be a tree
you've got branches
you've got the trunk
you've got the roots.
I have them do a little values clarification of,
what are some of the things
you value, but if it storm came through
and blew the branches off no big deal.
And they usually put stuff like... stuff
big car, fast car that kind of stuff.
Then on the trunk they put things like
education, health, and then at the bottom
they put things like family
or values that they hold
like compassion, justice, faith, honesty,
integrity those kinds of things.
And so then we talk about,
so we hold those, throughout the course of the semester,
and then we introduce history, and ask
kind of how does this version of history,
support or not your core values?
Then how does this understanding of history
help you honor your core values.
So, what we find is that
truth wins out in many ways.
Truth will kind of prevail
when it's set in the context
not of, macro social values, but who they
really are as human beings.
Who they really are as, no I believe in integrity
it's one of my most important things.
Well based on that, then we should have an honest
analyst of history, simply
so that we don't repeat it... right!
Adams: Um-hum absolutely!
Hackman: We really don't want to make
that mistake again.
And you've got them, in a sense,
like yeah well, I guess you're right.
And so then I make them read
Howard Zinn - A Peoples History of the United States
which freaks them out right
cause it's like a 650 page book or something.
And so I slice it up a little bit
to make it more palatable as you said,
cause it's totaling overwhelming
for many undergrads who are taking
many other classes.
Then we start to look at history
from the framework, not of those in power,
but those who've been disenfranchised.
We start to ask some questions
about what was in the minds of folks.
Like how do you establish colonies,
and later a larger society
based on the principles
democracy, and freedom, and engage
in the institution of slavery and genocide.
Like how does that work.
The primary way is they created race.
They construct the idea of race
so that you can hold both things as true.
Is that this is for people,
but unfortunately, people of color aren't people.
So were still okay, you know,
or women aren't fully human either
so were still okay.
Adams:Those small brains you have.
Hackman: Right! Yes, I know, I know it's really a problem.
Adams: It's all about cranium size [hand jester].
Hackman: It is... it is exactly!
And so there's ways that we construct justifications
to hold those two ideals at the same time.
Those constructions are alive and well today.
Adams: Once again, very misunderstood
we don't often see the connection
of how we got here from there.
I think that's the bridge that's necessary
for that critical consciousness to come into being.
One needs to know about those cranium studies.
One needs to know how standardized test
gets turned around in a way
that it begins to marginalize people.
Hackman: Yeah
Adams: One needs to understand, who and what
the Dillingham Commission did.
When you speak those truths to most
of our audiences, whether their undergrads or grads
they have know idea of what your talking about at all.
Hackman: Yeah.
Adams: That have not been part of their experience
in terms of understanding America.
Hackman: So what do you do for them in that moment?
How do you bridge potential resistance
or just shock, on someone in, like your experience?
Adams: I find shock is good! [laughter]
Actually a little cognitive dissonance
opens up the pathways.
What I do is have them create their own awe has.
So... so rather then, you know, my telling them this,
you know, I send them on an exploration for it, you know,
So read about Agassi,
read about Morton, read about these characters,
and then come and talk to me about
what you think this means.
Let's take a look at the Antibon Period, you know, in
let's explorer what was being preached in the pulpits.
Especially in the South.
Let's take a look at this version of Christianity
verses your own version of Christianity,
and suddenly, you know, those uh-huhs has happen...
it's like wow, I didn't know that this is what they were,
you know, saying from the pulpit .
Or I didn't know this was what modern science
was saying about, you know, issues of race.
and then the uh-huhs happen.
Hackman Yeah.
Adams: And once you create the uh-huhs,
then that's fertile ground for, you know,
for really doing that kind of work
that I think we both enjoy.
Hackman: Yeah!
I think two other questions that go with that well.
Are asking them, once they kind of have those moments
of cognitive dissonance, why do you think
you didn't know this?
What do you think happened there?
Your teachers were pretty smart people
what do you think happened?
with that history book, that said Rosa was just tired.
Were do you think that came from?
And then the critical question, I think,
is to say, and what will you do about this?
So what are you going to do in your own pedagogy,
when you get in a classroom
your the third grade teacher,
and that unit comes up, you know,
are you going to say, they needed more room,
or are you actually going to do something different.
And so it's the... that moment of dissonance
you can't go very far if they don't have it,
you know, or if I don't have it.
I won't get very far in my own learning.
But then the structural or power question
of why didn't you know?
It didn't just happen that way,
and what will you do about it now?
I think for a teacher-ed students it's critical.
Adams: Absolutely!
In that reflective piece that you referred to
sometimes I think that, perhaps it is the most important thing.
If we just get them to reflect,
you know, to really examine their actions
examine again, their own core values, and so forth,
and then how that relates to the students that their teaching,
and the world were preparing them for.
But once again... how do you get them
to make time to do that?
Given all the things that their juggling,
you know, as undergrads, or as practitioners,
you know, how do you get them to see
the value of reflection?
Hackman: Yeah, yeah it's yeah, it's
I think the action piece is what helps with that.
I think they see that, talking about oppression
doesn't mean just depression.
It's like... awe the world is horrible, you know,
and then have a good semester, and then your done,
you know, it can't be that
it has to be more than that.
And so, there's a sense of relief in thinking,
okay so now I understand this
and there's something I can do about it.
And so, that action [hand jester], you know, hope, and action together
are a really powerful combination.
Hope without action is, you know, kind of... stuck
it loses it's oomph, but action without any sense of hope
often leads to cynicism, and despair and so there has to be
that combination of oh... I can think of
a better way for this to go,
and I can do it to.
Adams: So, I'm interested your approaches
when your working with school districts.
Are you forced sometimes into bandage situations?
Or do you only take those school districts
who are willing to, [hand jester] roll their sleeves up,
and really be engaged?
Hackman: Um... I think it's a broad spectrum
actually it's a broad spectrum,
and I think in... in bandage moments
it's a moment of opportunity and so
you have to start [hand jester] a little farther back.
And so I often start with the
Diversity, Cultural Competency, Social Justice conversation,
and ask them to kind of figure out
as a school, or a district, what is it that you really want to do?
And you can do it just be honest about it,
and understand that you can have
food festivals all you want
for cultural competency, and those are great.
Everyone will be very full,
and happy that they ate all that good stuff.
But there will still be racism in your school
so you just need to understand that.
That while their milling down the tacos
there also going to be with a full mouth [mouth jester]
saying the thing their going to say, you know,
and so get that, just get that.
And just to be honest about it,
and so many schools, you know, with that intro conversation
do locate themselves, and then begin the process
of moving along, and moving along.
I don't think there's a linear development
between the three, but I think in terms of
risk assessment with the community actually.
Minnesota is a largely white state,
and so the risk assessment of jumping
right to an anti-racist framework
in a rural white school district
that's a pretty risky thing to do.
So, they actually do say let's begin here,
and we want to get to this.
But we've got to bring
our community along as well.
And so in some bandage situations, I start there.
But in other situations where schools
are districts, or buildings, are really
ready to go, then I begin the conversation
of race, racism with a conversation of race.
What is, what is race?
And I love that video series
Race the Power of An Illusion.
I strongly recommend it to anybody
in Teacher-Ed absolutely use that.
We talk about what's race?
Because we've been socialized
as a macro-society to not really question
that, but just to assume that it is something.
But it's not it's completely made up, totally made up.
And... I think it was Goebbels or Himmler who said
"If you say a lie enough times people will believe it."
And that's the truth with race in this society.
If you make race seem real... for long enough
which we've been doing for a few hundred years.
Then we get to the place
were we are right now
were we essentialize certain qualities, based on skin color.
Adams: Yes.
Hackman: The tricky thing about race
is you get on one plane
and you fly eight, ten, twelve hours
and you get off somewhere else,
and skin color may or may not have
any salience whatsoever.
And so I start with this construction of race
because it speaks to, why was it created?
How do you explain the decadence
between the ideals and the actions
where does that come from?
And in the process of doing that
many most of the students in my classes or white.
Most of the teachers I deal with in schools or white.
They don't see themselves as racialized beings.
Like white people think about race as all those folks.
But the truth is white had to be created as well.
So, you know, Europeans everyday
Europeans didn't get on their boats, and say, [hand jester]
come on let's go and be white.
They didn't say that they came as
Germans and French, Norwegians, and Swedes
and whatever they got going on.
And they get here, and the British power structure
began to consolidate, consolidate,
and saw that through class allegiance
these white Europeans were actually
chilling with these folks.
Like you can't have that no,no,no,no,no,!
Because you vastly out number me.
You vastly out number me.
I can't divide along class any more as we did in England
because it's not quite working here.
So what were going to do
is create white, and were going to create race
in the mid seventeenth century.
Right around seventeen hundred in Virginia
the Maryland documents,
you actually start to see white codified.
And so I'll let you live in this colony if you're white.
Or I'll let you live in this state,
or I'll let you have this job.
You can do this thing if you start
to swear allegiance to whiteness,
and what that meant is, stop speaking German
stop speaking Swedish, stop speaking French, and get all white! [hand jester]
So, just get white will ya!
And it didn't happen easily cause these folks,
culture has such powerful meaning.
Like I'm not going to get white!
And yet, I've got five kids to feed... and so, alright maybe.
So you can look at Chicago,
in the meat packing factories in Chicago,
and the Polish population in Chicago,
and I'm sorry you can't speak your language,
you can't act the way you are,
you can't eat the food, you got to get white.
And Henry Ford, and his plants in Detroit
had classes were he taught
European immigrants to assimilate
to a white dominant standard in the US.
Which was about speaking US standard dialect.
Which was about dressing a certain way.
Eating certain foods, engaging in certain moods
of behavior with each other.
Forming communities in very particular ways.
He made his employees take classes on that
so that they would assimilate.
And so, what happened is... I, you know,
these kind of Euro, many European folks
coming over here had capitol "C" culture in tack,
and they were told, [hand jester] give up "C" for "W."
and if you get "W" then you'll have
some of these benefits and privileges.
But over a few generations [hand jester]
"W" turns into "A"... the American dream!
Because I got take job, and then I got to go to college,
and then I got to pay that GI Bill house,
and I got to do all that stuff.
And so my [hand jester] "W" is an "A,"
and what it means to be an American is [hand jester] White!
Adams: Yes.
Hackman: But I don't know that
I was never taught that
I was just taught Americans is about freedom.
But slowly over time that structure gets in place.
So I use the construction of race
not to help people see the fallacies of essentializing
certain characteristics that students of color.
But also to help them see the fallacy
of essentializing certain things to whiteness.
That white is inherently superior... it's like No!
It's a game just like everything else.
So, we move to a... once we get race
then we move racism, then we talk about
the construction of white privilege and white supremacy.
And how if your going to look at
racial justice as a whole in the US.
You have to look at how racism targets folks of color.
But you must look at white privilege,
and white supremacy too.
Cause it takes a lot of work
to be racist... right?
Adams: Um hum.
Hackman: It's hard work! And so,
Brown verses Board of Education
May 17, 1954 the Supreme Court said:
"Desegregate these schools."
The macro power structure of whiteness said:
Oh... no, no, no, no, no..
And so found a way to fly under the radar
of a Supreme Court decision,
and still in 2005, Jonathan Kozol's book
"The Shame of the Nation" showed us that
the racial segregation levels in US public schools in 2005 were equal to 1968.
So, how do you do that, and not get sued... right!
And so what we find is it takes an enormous amount
of tricky work to maintain systems
of racism and it begs the question why?
And the reason why is because white people benefit.
I benefit from a system pf privilege.
I benefit from an ideology of supremacy
that everywhere I go tells me I'm superior.
And so that's... and that's last... right
you can imagine why I have to put that last.
But that's last, the last part of the conversation
when we then begin to drill down
at curriculum, policies, hiring practices
really look at what happening in that district.
Not only the ways that it marginalize people of color,
but the ways that it serves white people, inordinately, you know,
in disproportion, serves white people.
And so that's... that is not a lovely conversation.
Their not like... WOW I'm so glad
I came to this workshop!
Adams: Right, right!
Hackman: That's not one that they thought that they signed up for.
And yet, if we don't fundamentally address
both sides of this, we will never
get to racial equality in our schools... never.
Adams: Yeah... very nicely done.
What I'd like to do... to help them see that what was white in 1790,
is not what we think white is in 2011.
Who was American in the 18th, 19th century.
Is not who American is now.
Many of the groups that they come from
would not have been considered white
or American, and their just stunned
their actually stunned by that, you know,
so helping them process that, and see
see... see that through a deconstruction
is very powerful for them.
And then they begin to understand
oh this has been a struggle
for identity throughout the history
of this country, and it still is.
So, you know, that part of it
is very, very important as well.
Mort people don't understand
that up until relative recent times.
The only way you can become nationalized
as a citizen is if you are white.
Hackman: Yeah.
Adams: And so defining white
was always essential as you know.
Yeah, so that's a... that's a big one that's a tough one.
The denial that you initially get from those conversations
I find to be palatable, you know,
so strategies for getting people
to break through the denial.
Hackman: Yeah!
Adams: Do you have any good ones?
Hackan: I... you know, one of the things
I constantly say in teaching
and training around issues of race.
As a white person to other white people is
we just don't even have time for guilt and shame.
Now I know that every time
this topic has come up
in the past for you,
you've probably been encouraged
to feel guilt and shame.
Or subtlety directed towards there
or maybe just felt it cause
you didn't know what else to do.
And so what I do is I actually have some
some curricular pieces that I use
to help them understand that quilt and shame
is actually a tool of the dominant structure.
Because when you're guilty and shameful
you just don't have a lot of energy to move.
And so I'm very clear,
and I have to say it again, and again to white students.
No time for guilt and shame.
Like if racism and whiteness
is like a house on fire
it doesn't do anybody any good
to stand there and say
I feel so bad about that house burning down.
I'm so guilty about that house burning down.
I've read books about the house burning down.
I saw an important Oprah episode
about the house burning down.
Adams: [laughter]
Hackman: You know, like while you're
lamenting and feeling guilty
the house is burning down.
And so I get it, I totally get it.
And so I usually look at my watch and say:
"I'll give you 30 seconds to feel horrible...GO!"
You know, and then I... beep, beep, you're DONE!
Because what do we need to do
we need to move to action.
And also there isn't a little white pee-wee
born in the United States who says:
Yeah cut the cord, and clean me up,
and I can't wait to be racist.
Like it's a socialized process.
It's something we socialize people into,
and we know that because when we look at really young ones.
Thankfully we can video tape this,
and you get really clear evidence of it.
Of course they notice a difference in skin color.
They can make a differentiation among melanin.
But there's no assigned meaning to it.
So, they don't actually care, it's a noticing, but it's not a care.
Then at different age levels depending on their exposure.
You can see when suddenly it matters.
Suddenly it matters, and I can't play with you or I can't play with you,
or I can't hang out with you,
and you don't live in my neighborhood
and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And so the signing of that meeting happens,
but those children didn't ask for that to happen.
And so another piece that I use to address that is resistance.
Is to say, I know, that whatever you put
at the bottom of your value tree
is really powerful stuff.
I'm willing to bet that white supremacy,
and racism are not there.
And so what I know about you, is that you're good people
and what I know about you, you've been miseducation,
and led astray, from your core values.
So my invitation to you
is to come back to your core values.
Let who you say you are and want to be in the world,
match up with who you actually are.
Because coming into focus like that as a white person
is a profound experience morally,
ethically, spiritually, intellectually it's an amazing moment.
But this system of whiteness
in order to get you to be complicit.
The system of racism, in order to get you to be complicit,
has moved you so far away
through miseducation, and bad socialization
that it has harmed you, it has harmed you
and so it's time to come home to your core values.
Adams: That's...that's nice, I pick on the Christians a lot.
Hackman: [laughter]
Adams: Well, cause their so plentiful for one.
Hackman: There are quite a few
in the United States... sure yeah!
Adams: But basically, once again, the very foundation
of being a Christian is just what you were talking about
that you have these strong set of core values.
And so then what I want to do
is to take them back to seventeen hundreds.
Hackman: Yeah.
Adams: Okay, and so, let's try to understand
how you can be Christian, and own slaves?
Okay, then once we establish that, let's understand
how these Quakers, become conscious, of the fact that,
you know, I don't think I can get to heaven owning slaves.
And! Not only can I get there... okay... I must act.
I can't just say I don't like this stuff.
But I've got to put those beliefs now in action.
What would that take during those time periods,
you know, entire eighteenth century
almost the entire nineteenth century,
you know, and stuff, and these people are saying
are railing against this sin.
Hackman: Yeah.
Adams: And so then we kind of, [hand jester] you know,
once again we got to look at Christianity.
What does that mean then to have
this faith, this belief, that I believe in so powerfully
act on behalf of this institution of slavery,
and boy that's fun.
Hackman: Yeah.
Adams: That's a real come to Jesus for a lot of them... okay.
And... and that's what we have to do.
And of course, I don't just pick on the Christians
anybody else who's there
will find something for them too.
[laughter]
Adams:But we have a lot of Christians,
and they haven't had to ask that question.
They haven't had to have that conversation.
There is some real interesting new material
out that looks at the role of religion and slavery.
There's one scene in particular, in which,
the Christians actually met above an auction block.
And so you have the cells, in which,
the slaves were being held.
Their upstairs praying, having service,
and they can hear the wales
of the chattel beneath them.
How do you reconcile? How is that possible?
And... and so we have to also see
along with the political piece
how that religious piece works.
Hackman: Yeah.
Adams: As we alluded to earlier.
How the science works to justify that
because in order to create that thing called race
we needed all those powerful structures
working cohesively together, to... to create the amnesia.
Hackman: Right.
One of the things to... to tag onto that is.
I try to make a distinction between
christian hegemony, and the value set humans feel.
Because there are a lot of Christians in my class.
St. Cloud State is in central Minnesota.
So there's a lot of white students
who also happen to identify as Christian.
And that first approach is like, woe! [hand jester]
Now your not suppose assail my religion.
I'm like, I'm not actually, what I'm talking about is a
power structure of christian hegemony in the US.
I talk about how christian hegemony
it's an interesting kind of threesome here.
With class supremacy and white supremacy,
and thee way that those three work together
to constantly offset each other.
And so when you try to press on one
then you get the other two squeezing in there.
It's, it's remarkable, remarkable kind of pairing.
Adams: Good joojoo!
Hackman: Yeah! It's remarkable way,
like if it wasn't so completely devastating
to so many, you know, tens of millions of people.
What you could look at and say,
that's a pretty elegant design, of the way
the three of them interact.
And so, you can't talk about race in the US,
without talking about the structure
of christian hegemony, you just can't do it.
Or class it's very difficult to do that.
Adams: Yeah and together boy what do they spawn
and the offshoots of it, of course,
around the rest of the planet to,
because the whole genetics, eugenics piece, oh my goodness.
We see the awesome manifestation of it, in Hitlers Germany.
Hackman: Yes, absolutely.
Adams: So, if you want to play those kind of games
let's see how then that plays out... okay.
Because here's the width and breathe... and that's sad.
Hackman: Yeah!
Adams: Incredibly, incredibly sad.
But when you play those games
of creating the other, then that's the by-product.
The by-product is, I can take 60 million people
from your Continent, take them on this aweful passage,
we can lose 20, 30, percent of them,
and it's just a business lost.
It's not really lives being lost.
It's just property, okay, so that takes
powerful forces, powerful, powerful forces,.
Let's talk about empathy.
Hackman: Alright!
Adams: Yeah! I've given end to empathy.
It seems to me... it's that cohesive fabric
that we have that's part of being human,
that we all have, we all posses it.
I mean it's one of those things that are at birth.
But as you were talking about something happens
in the socialization process
in which we rip empathy.
That we only have it for certain classes of people,
or certain kinds of things and stuff.
Now we have great empathy for our dogs and cats.
You know, when I see a dog or a cat in a Mercedes Benz.
I call it a Buddha cat or a Buddha dog.
Cause it must be a high reincarnation,
you know, I mean, to be able to get that kind of luxury.
But we do amazing things for our pets.
Hackman: Yeah!
Adams: That we won't do for our fellow human beings.
Hackman: Yeah!
Adams You know, so something is happen
to that empathy that is naturally there,
that is part of our process of being human
that can somehow get's torn,
through racism, or classism, or sexism, or homophobia.
Hackman: I, you know, I... it's a... kind of a number
of answers to this, so I'll try to sort them out.
I do think that exactly what we were describing
is that there is a split, you know,
to go to church in the morning
in the white South.
And then to go to a lynching
with your family that afternoon
Adams: Picnic!
Hackman: as entertainment.
Adams: Picnic!
Hackman: Requires, exactly, requires
something to be torn away.
And... and it's difficult to collude
with oppression while your busy being
empathetic to the group that you're with.
So one of the components of oppression,
is it strips away the dominant groups
ability to do that for sure.
But i also think... I've been doing some workshops
with a colleague up in Minneapolis
entitled "More Than Skin Deep
Dismantling White Supremacy
One Cell At A Time."
And she and I are kind of moving into looking at
in addition to lots of ways of looking at issues
of race and racism that I've already discribed.
Looking at the issue of trauma,
and Dr. Joy DeGruy talks about, you know,
post-traumatic slave syndrome in her book,
and What does that mean, and how have white folks
been traumatized by the structures
of racism and white supremacy.
And let me be very clear, I'm not equalizing
in this moment, and so the one way
that super-whitey can recenter itself
is to say, oh yeah, I've been hurt by racism to
so it must go both ways.
No! it doesn't [hand jester]
let me be very clear about that.
However, what allows white people to have that split?
What allows me to turn away?
What allows me to say, oh no, I was just joking?
You know, what gets in the way of me being able
to meet you with my heart?
And so were exploring this idea of trauma,
and how, you know, kind of core survival responses
get triggered in a racist environment.
For folks of color those core survival responses
are such that, it, it creates this constant level of stress.
Which if you look at the you know
National Health Care Disparities report
that just came out this year... 2010.
You can see that even when you
mitigated for class communities of color
have higher rates of heart disease,
higher risk of death, blah, blah, blah,... than white people.
So it's not just access to insurance.
Because when you get class out of the way,
you get insurance out of the way,
racism is having a physical toil
on the people of color.
And so what we get to see is that it does
have physical manifestation.
So what are the physical manifestation for white people.
It's a tearing of our humanity.
What does that do? What does that do?
And so were exploring through kind of looking
at mechanism of trauma, and survival responses.
How have white folks been socialized,
and traumatized in such a way by race
that I have been deluded to think that my survival, [hand jester]
depends on maintaining racism and whiteness.
When in point in fact, this system is killing me.
It's killing you, it's killing all of us, in this society .
And so getting down to deeper
causes and conditions biological,
physiological causes and conditions
of racism in white people.
Is one pathway to begin to explore
what have I lost in my ability
to engage in the moment.
That kind of trauma explanation
helps us to understand why you can have
very well educated white people
I've read everything about white privilege,
in fact, I teach a class on white privilege.
I'm sitting in a meeting, you know,
a department meeting or something,
and some racist comment goes down and I freeze.
So here I am... like this big [mouth jester]
about whiteness. And yet this moment comes,
and I panic, and I freeze, and so
the trauma piece explains that
because trauma is in the frog brain,
survival responses are back here [hand jester]
and all my reading is up hear ][hand jester].
And then those terrifying moments,
tense moments, I go [hand jester] back here.
And so the trauma piece helps us
not resocialize, and re-educate
in just this way, but it helps us to reach back to the lie
that my survival really depends
on maintaining racism and whiteness,
and you can rewire that too.
We can rewire how we've been
brought up as white people.
And that will allow me to more effectively
work in the service of ending racism..
Because in those tense moments
I'll not only have some information to bear,
but I'll have checked myself, and I'll stay in the room.
Adams: Yeah.
Hackman: And I'll say woe, look I'm freaking out... don't leave.
Instead I'll say something.
Adams: What immediately came to mind
when you articulated that was.
The absolute discomfort that affirmative action
has for white people.
They can get five minutes of it,
and be screaming... okay.
But oppressed groups, people of color, women, and so forth
had to endure it for hundreds of years.
Five minutes, they freak out, this is totally un-just... Yes!
Hackman: Yeah... well I think there's a couple pieces
about affirmative action.
One is I get to look at, go to the Bureau of Labor,
and look at the stats around,
and the primary beneficiaries
of affirmative legislation has been
middle-class white women,
have not people of color.
So while I'm all jacked up about [hand jester] wah, wah, wah, wah.
I got my job because of affirmative action.
So, I have to be honest about that.
The second piece though is to complicate
the understanding of affirmative action.
Such that I put white privilege,
and white supremacy into the equation.
And I have students do a race,
and cultural analysis paper.
And I say, well tell me where your family came from,
what's your capitol "C" culture,
what you got going on there?
And their like, uh... I don't know,
but then they dig around, and they go back,
and they realize that, you know their... their
half German, and their German great, great,
grand parents came to Iowa,
and farmed 8 days a week for 40 hours a day,
you know, it snowed all year round then,
and it was horrible, you know, all this struggle,
and this and that.
Or lest say it was in Minnesota,
and they got this farm in 1862.
And I say, on my feedback,
what happened in 1862 do you think?
What happened was, you know,
in this State of Minnesota, is that, varies governors
just took all this land wanted to make sure
it populated quickly with white people, and so
sold it at basement prices... right.
And so then you ask the question
how did your family get that farm
with no money as immigrants
that's an amazing trick... like
tell me how that works, and I might, you know, get into that.
Then what they identify is, well this happened.
I'm like, well who's land was it? well how did that happen?
As you trace the history back, I start to see
that everything that I've got
comes as a result of affirmative action at the hands of
white privilege, and white supremacy,
and so there's a way that we take the legislation
out of the small niche of that, and broaden it, so that
white people have to really become responsible.
Again, not guilty and shameful
that's not terrible useful.
But what would it mean if I'm responsible around it?
What would it mean?
Maybe it means I give the land back.
There's a great book by Dr. Waziyatawin who
the title of the book is "What Does Justice Look Like."
And her suggestion as an indigenous women in Minnesota.
Is give all the state land back.
Every state park give it back,
but before you give it back,
you need to clean it up!
You got to return it in the condition
that you found it... right!
Adams: Nice!
Hackman: And so, give it back! Give those 11 million acres back.
I think to myself... that's not a bad idea actually.
It's not a bad idea, it's about making a mends,
and so when the United States Congress
was about to, you know, pass some kind of resolution
not a law or anything, but a resolution.
I think it was toward the Turkish government
about Armenian Genocide.
The European press said, you know, "It's fascinating
that your concerned about genocide,
you know, were just curious, what are you doing about,
you know, American Indian Genocide?"
And quickly congress said... well we don't have time
to talk about that right now, you know,
and they dropped it! They dropped it!
And so it does it begs the question of
when we learn the true history
what do we do about it?
And more than just apologizing
we have the capacity, as a white dominant society
to make amends, and set it right.
Adams: Hard for us!
Hackman: Yeah!
Adams: You know, hard for us.
So much to talk about let, let's go
a little bit back to the P12's,
and talk about children, and what messages
we need to be sending to them as early as possible.
One about getting the history straight.
And then second their responsibility
to live a life that has social justice
Hackman: Yeah.
Adams: as a core value? How do we do that one?
Hackman: Um... I think it's more than just a...
some kind of a casual kum ba yah type of mements.
I think it's really more about
embedding care, and concern for others,
and not just [hand jester] kind of, I like you.
But care and concern as we understand
the relationship to resources,
and as we understand the relationship to community.
Deeply embed that in the ways
that we engage with young people in society.
And so what that produces then is a hunger
for justice, more than the seductive
privileges of oppression.
And so if we can embed those kinds of principles
in early education, and I often say,
cause I think there's a little bit of bias
in P12, were secondary folks are like
WELL [hand jester] REAL EDUCATION HAPPENS IN HIGH SCHOOL!
You know, and their like yeah!
My analogy to that is that would be like saying
eat McDonald's until ninth grade.
Like subsist on nothing but McDonald's,
and then worry about your diet when your fourteen.
Like, you'll be five hundred pounds with heart disease
a fourteen year old, and so that's ridiculous.
We need to worry about it from the get go.
We need to worry about these issues,
about how to deeply, and thoughtfully, and critically
educate young people from the get go.
And those are about, not just about care
in a white liberal sense.
White liberalism is were, I feel so bad for those people.
I'm gonna go save those people.
Instead what were doing is were recognizing
that my core humanity, is directly tied to yours.
We are in this boat together,
so what happens to you does happen to me.
We engender that with young people
with deeper conversations about
social responsibility, about different ways
of shaping community, and inter, and being interdependent.
Not independent, but interdependent.
We start to ask questions about resources.
I'm not going to give a kindergartner a lecture on
multinational corporations and, you know,
class structure in the United States.
I am going to say: If everybody has enough everybody does better.
Everybody does better when we all do better.
And now I'm going to get critics
your a communist, I'm not saying
that social justice education doesn't say
everybody's got to have the same.
It says: Everybody needs to have enough to be okay.
Then if you want your big mansion
I guess you can have that, that's fine.
But not at the expense of some schools
not having books in their schools.
It's totally unacceptable,
and it's an uncivilized way to live.
And so let's find an humane base line.
Everybody can take books home.
Everybody can you know blah, blah, blah, blah , blah.
And then anything above that,
if you can achieve that go right ahead.
But we will never have success in this society
at the expense of the base humanity of other people.
So when we talk about resources to young people
we talk about what's the humane baseline?
And how will we make sure everyone has enough?
And then so you can actualize, and achieve
to your fullest potential.
But your not going to do well
if you hadn't eaten that day.
Adams: Yes!
Hackman: One of my classes you know,
I acknowledged that 3 out of 10 people
identify, and gender present as women
have active eating disorders.
So I'm really clear about that, but I say,
you know, if on reflection for yourself
your not one of those people.
And I usually teach classes
in the late morning in the afternoon.
I say don't eat before class, don't eat a thing
before you come to class
on the next class period.
And were going to see how well you do, you know,
and so have experience of understanding
a lack of resources, if you don't already have that.
Maybe you come from a class background
were you actually do have that.
But if you're sitting here not understanding
why those people can't eat, or why those people
can't do well on test. Then put yourself
in that position for just a minute, and look at what happens
to your cognitive capacity when your blood sugar is that low.
When you haven't been well fed that day.
And so what would it mean for all of our achievement.
If we just made sure everybody had enough food.
And so with young people we talk about
community and interdependence,
we talk about social justice values,
we talk about those kinds of things and embed that.
The challenge for every school that tries to do that.
Is you're going to be accused of being a communist.
You know, that anti American.. rugged individualism.
I have lots of students who say
I'm an individual, you know, I don't like this group
think crap your putting out there,
I'm like fair enough.
So you are an individual,
you have achieved everything all by yourself?
And their like, heck yeah! I'm like
so you failed the tree, made the paper,
printed that book that your reading
like that's astounding that you had time
to do that and I'm grateful that you did it
cause I like that book too.
You know, and so you grew the food you ate this morning?
And you, you know, mined the... drilled the oil
that made it blah, blah, blah.
And no they haven't, they haven't.
So the illusion of rugged individualism is just that!
It's an illusion... were deeply interdependent society.
So, let's be honest with the peewees about that,
and help them learn to act in such a way.
again it doesn't mean were all calling
each other Conrade or something like that.
What it means is, were walking around
knowing that everybody has enough.
When everybody has enough
that makes a society far more safe and secured.
Far more productive, and far happier,
we just are happier people, healthier people.
Adams: Yeah, and that's reestablishing
that connections back to our empathy.
Hackman: Yeah!
Adams: Were we can really truly see
people as connected to us as brothers and sisters.
I mean there's something about that
I really like a lot.
Hackman: Yeah, I do to.
Adams: And... I use it a lot and sometimes
I disarm people, you know, and they say
whew I thought you only called
people of color your brothers and sisters.
Well, you look my brother and sister too, you know,
If we can get used to that
we have a much better chance of easing
some of this distress that exist in the planet.
Anything you like to add before we wrap this up?
Hackman: Well, just a couple thoughts.
One is that I think that many times
when we look at critical issues like these
we kind of turn our eye toward P12's,
and I actually turned much of my frustration
toward teacher education.
In that we are, in my opinion, and from what I have read.
Willfully behind, the realities of whats
on the ground in our public schools.
And so I have some interesting experiences
with other colleagues in teacher education
who actually find what I teach, and what you teach
to be completely irrelevant
Adams: Yes.
Hackman: and a waste of time.
That is such out dated thinking,
and we don't even have time for that.
I mean it's just... it's such an unbelievable conversation in 2011.
And so I guess that one thing I would say
is to put a call to teacher education,
and say in simple terms
can you get with the program here... honestly.
Get with what's the reality of this society,
and learn to embed, social justice issues
in every aspect of teacher education,
and prepare what is still a majority
white teaching force, to be far more aware,
culturally competent, and critically able
to address issues of racism, sexism,
hetero-sexism, homophobia in our schools. .
If we made a mass movement
in teacher education in that direction.
Then we would find some profound change
happening in our schools.
Profound change, but as long as we allow
Teacher-Ed to be a little bit
behind the curve in theses issues,
and don't prepare teachers for it,
and then have a vastly changing,
dramatically changing student, and family demographic,
that has a different set of needs.
Then, and then blame public education for it,
without looking at Teacher-Ed
we will forever be struggling with the same issues,
again, and again, and again and we will lose,
we will lose an enormous amount of human capital.
Enormous amount of human capital!
So yeah! I quest I would, my last words would be...
kind of, a call to Teacher-Ed
to step up more [head jester].
Adams: Outstanding! Thank you very much!
Hackman: Cool! Thank you! Thanks a lot!
It's good to be here!
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Text: Researcher and Interviewer
Dr. J. Q. Adams Western Illinois University
Producer
Dr. Janice R. Welsch
Western Illinois University
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Text: Special Thanks to Dr. Heather W. Hackman
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Credits: Director/Editor Mark A. Dial
Production Facilities provided by
University Television Wester Illinois University
Funding Provided by California Community Foundation
Illinois Association of Cultural Diversity
Western Illinois University
Western Illinois University [copyright] 2011
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