James Baldwin Debates William F. Buckley (1965)

>> [MUSIC] The
following program

is from NET,

the National Educational
Television Network.

>> Debate, James Baldwin,

versus William Buckley.

Subject, has the
American dream

been achieved
at the expense

of the American negro?

This debate was
held recently at

the Cambridge Union,
Cambridge University,

England, and was
recorded for use by NET.

>> Well, here we are in

the debating hall of
the Cambridge Union,

hundreds of
undergraduates and

myself waiting for
what could prove one

of the most
exciting debates in

the whole 150 years
of the Union history.

It really, I don't
think I've ever

seen the Union so
well attended.

They're undergraduates
everywhere.

They're on the benches,

and on the floor, but
in the galleries,

and there are a
lot more outside

clamoring to get in.

Well, the motion
that has drawn

this huge crowd
tonight is this that

the American
dream has been

achieved at the expense

of the American negro.

The debate will open with

two undergraduate
speakers,

one from each side.

And then we shall have

the first
distinguished guest,

Mr. James Baldwin,

the well known American

novelist who has achieved

a worldwide fame with

his novel,
Another Country.

Then opposing the
motion will be Mr.

William Buckley,
also an American,

very well known as
a conservative in

the United States
under stress

a conservative in
the American sense,

author of a book called
Up From Liberalism,

and editor of the
national review,

one of the earliest
supporters

of Senator Goldwater.

Well, this is the
setting of the debate,

and at any moment now,

the president
will be leading

in his officers and his
distinguished guests.

He'll take his chair, and

the debate will begin.

[APPLAUSE]

The motion before

the House tonight is

the American dream is at

the expense of the
American negro.

I propose of Mr. David

Haycock of
Pembroke College

and opposed Mr. Jeremy

Befort of
Emmanuel College.

Mr. James Baldwin
will speak first,

Mr. William Buckley
junior will speak forth.

Mr. Haycock is the heir

of the house.

[APPLAUSE]

>> Mr. President, sir, it

is the custom of
the House for

the first speaker
in any debate to

extend a formal welcome

to any visitors
to the house.

I can honestly
say, however,

that it is a very
great honor to be

able to welcome to the
house this evening,

Mr. William Buckley
and Mr. James Baldwin.

Mr. William Buckley has

the reputation of possibly

being the most
articulate conservative

in the United
States of America.

He was a graduate of Yale,

and he first gained

a reputation
for himself by

publishing a book entitled

God and Man and Yale.

[LAUGHTER] Since
then, he has

devoted himself
to the secular.

And this has included
Norman Mailer,

Kenneth Tyler and
Mary McCarthy,

and Fidel Castro,
none of whom

have come out of

their confrontations
unscathed.

[LAUGHTER] At present,

his principal
occupation is editing

a right wing newspaper in

the United States

entitle the
National Review.

Mr. James Baldwin is

hardly in need
of introduction.

His reputation,
both as a novelist,

and as an advocate of

civil rights is
international.

His third novel,
Another Country has

been published as

a paperback in
England today.

Mr. Baldwin and Mr.
Buckley are both

very welcome to the
house this evening.

[APPLAUSE]

Imagine, Mr. President,

a society which above

all values, freedom
and equality.

A society in which
artificial barriers to

fulfillment and achievement
are unheard of.

A society in which
a man may begin

his life as a
rail splitter

and end it as president,

a society in which all men

are free in every
sense of the word.

Free to live where
they choose,

free to work where
they choose,

equal in the
eyes of the law

and every public
authority,

and equal in the eyes of

their fellows, a society,

in fact, in which
intolerance and

prejudice are
meaningless terms.

Imagine, however,
Mr. President,

that a condition of
this utopia has been

the persistent and

quite deliberate
exploitation

of one ninth of
its inhabitants.

That one man in nine has

been denied those rights,

which the rest of

that society takes
for granted.

That one man in

nine does not have
the chance for

fulfillment or realization

of his innate
potentiality.

[NOISE] That one man
in nine cannot promise

his children a
secure future

and unlimited
opportunities.

Imagine this,
Mr. President,

and you have what
is in my opinion,

the bitter reality of
the American dream.

A few weeks ago,

Martin Luther
King had to hold

a non violent
demonstration in

Selma Alabama in his drive

to register negro voters.

By the end of the week
of his demonstrations,

he was able to write
quite accurately in

a national fund
raising letter

from Selma Alabama jail.

There are more
negroes in prison

with me than there are
on the voting rolls.

When King wrote
that letter,

335 out of 32,700

negroes in Dallas
had the vote,

1% of the Dallas
population.

After a mass march
to the courthouse,

237 negroes, King among
them were arrested.

The following day, 470

children who had deserted

their classrooms
to protest against

King's arrest were

charged with juvenile
delinquency.

[LAUGHTER] Thirty
six adults

on the same day
were charged with

contempt of court
for picketing

the courthouse while

state circuit court
was in session.

On the following
day, 111 people

were arrested on
the same charge,

despite their
claim that they

merely wanted to see
the voting registrar.

Four hundred students were

arrested and taken
to the armory,

where many of them
spent the night

on a cold cement floor.

The following day,
the demonstration

spread to Marion, Alabama.

In Marion, negroes
outnumber whites,

by 11 and a half thousands
to 6,000 people,

and yet only 300 are
registered to vote.

Negroes and Marion
were anxious to test

the public
accommodation section

of the civil rights law.

They entered a drug store,

and there they
were served with

coca cola laced with salt

and were told
that hamburgers

had risen to $5 each.

After the arrest
of 15 negroes

for protesting against
this treatment,

700 negroes boycotted
their classes

next day and marched

in orderly fashion
to the jail.

There, they sang
civil rights songs,

until they were warned by

a state trooper
that they would

be arrested if they
sang one more song.

Of course, they
sang another song,

and of course, all
700 were arrested.

American Society has felt

fit to use negro labor.

It has felt fit to use

the blood of the negro
in two world wars.

It felt fit to
listen to his music.

It has felt fit to
laugh at his jokes.

And yet, as far
as I'm concerned,

it has never felt fit to

give the American
negro a fair deal.

And for this reason,
Mr. President,

I would beg leave to
propose the motion that

the American dream is at

the expense of the
American negro. [APPLAUSE]

>> I now call Mr.
Jeremy Burford of

Emmanuel College to
oppose the motion.

[APPLAUSE]

>> Now I have Mr. Jeremy
Burford of Emmanuel College,

who is

the first undergraduate
opposing the motion.

>> James Baldwin is
well known as one of

the most vivid and
articulate writers

about the negro
problem in America.

Mr. Baldwin had a
difficult childhood,

and he has personally
himself suffered

discrimination
and ill treatment

in the South of America.

And I would like to
say at this time,

that it is not the
purpose of this side of

the House to condone
that in any way at all.

It is not our purpose
to oppose civil rights.

It is our purpose to
oppose this motion.

[LAUGHTER] Thank you, sir.

Come and collect
your fee afterwards.

[LAUGHTER]
[APPLAUSE] This side

of the House denies that

the American dream
has in any way been

helped by this
undoubted inequality

and suffering
of the negro.

We maintain that, in fact,

it has hindered the
American dream.

And if there had
been equity,

if there had been

true freedom of
opportunity,

the American dream
would be very

much more advanced
than it is now.

If the American dream has

made any progress,
and I think it has,

it has been made in
spite of the suffering

and inequality
of the American

negro and not
because of it.

Now, it is also implied
from this motion that

the American dream
is encouraging

and worsening
the suffering

of the American negro.

This is emphatically
not the case.

The American dream,

the American
economic prosperity

and respect for
civil liberties

has been the main factor
in bringing about

the undoubted
improvement in

race relations in America

in the last 20 years.

And Professor Arnold Rose,

who is the author of
the Negro in America,

which is perhaps

the definitive work
on the subject,

who is also a
contributor to

what was called a
freedom pamphlet.

So I should imagine that

if he has any bias at all,

it is in favor
of the negro.

He said that this
improvement in

race relations
will be seen

in years to come as
remarkably quick,

and he has put it down
to three main causes,

increased
industrialization

and technical advance,

the increased
social mobility

of the American people,

and the economic
prosperity.

And I would put
it to this house

that that
industrialization and

economic prosperity
are two of

the main ingredients
of the American dream.

And at the same
time, again,

I do not want to say that

the negro in America

is treated fairly,
but at the same time,

the average per capita

income of negroes
in America is

exactly the same
as the average

per capita income of
people in Great Britain.

Now,

[LAUGHTER] I found that
absolutely amazing,

and [LAUGHTER]
I understand

that some of
you do as well,

so I have got the
reference here from

the United States News and

World Report of
July the 22nd,

1963, in which
it points out,

this will have to be
the last interruption

I take as time is running.

>> Mr. President, on a
point of information,

is the speaker talking of

real income or money
income? [APPLAUSE]

>> I'm talking
of money income.

I would not wish
to disguise that.

I would also say that
in terms of this,

there are only
five countries

in the world where

the income is higher than

that of the
American negro,

and they do not
include countries like

West Germany and
France and Japan.

Now, there are in America

35 negro millionaires.

There are negro $6,000

[inaudible]
[LAUGHTER] Now,

I do not by saying this,

wish to emphasize but

the negros fairly treated,

I merely wish to
try and convey

a more realistic and
objective account

of the situation
of the negro.

I agree that there are

negroes who are very poor,

indeed [LAUGHTER] such as

the old gentleman
in the south,

who was talking about

some of his
wealthier brethren,

and he was saying, yes,

some of these
rich negroes,

they put on airs day like

the bottom figure
of a fraction.

The bigger they try to be,

the smaller they
really are.

I would repeat,
Mr. President,

sir, in the last
minute I have,

that this debate
is not whether

civil rights
should be extended

to American
negroes or not.

If it were, it would
be a very easy motion

to argue for
and a very easy

motion to vote for.

The debate tonight
concerns whether

the American dream is at

the expense of the
American negro.

That is whether
the American negro

has paid for the
American dream with

his suffering or whether

the American dream has

furthered negro
inequality.

And I would deny both
those two precepts.

I would say that
negro inequality

has hindered the
American dream.

And I would say that the

American dream has
been very important

indeed in furthering
civil rights

and in furthering freedom

for the American negro.

Mr. President, sir, I

beg to oppose the
motion. [APPLAUSE]

>> It is now with
very great pleasure

and a very great
sense of honor

that I called Mr.
James Baldwin

to speak third to this
motion. [APPLAUSE]

>> Now we have Mr.
James Baldwin,

the star of the evening,

who has been sitting
listening attentively,

getting a wonderful
reception

here in the
Cambridge Union.

Tremendous enthusiasm
from all sides

of the house to
Mr. Baldwin,

who has been listening
to the arguments.

Now we'll bring the
voice of actual

experience to the debate.

>> Good evening.
[LAUGHTER]

I find myself, not
for the first time

and the position
of a Jeremiah.

For example, I
don't disagree

with Mr. Burford that

the inequality suffered by

the American Negro
population of

the United States has

hindered the
American dream.

Indeed, it has. I quarrel

with some other
things he has to say.

The other deeper
element of

a certain awkwardness
I feel has to do with,

it has to do
with one's point

of view, I had to
put it that way.

One sense, one
system of reality,

it would seem to me

the proposition
before the house,

if I put it that way, is

the American dream at

the expense of the
American Negro,

or the American dream is

at the expense of
the American Negro?

Is a question
hideously loaded,

and that one's response
to that question,

or one's reaction
to that question,

has it depend on

effect on where you

find yourself
in the world,

what your sense
of reality is,

what your system
of reality is.

That is, it depends on
assumptions which we

hold so deeply as

to be scarcely
aware of them.

White South African or

Mississippi Share crop

or Mississippi Sheriff,

or a Frenchman
driven out of

Algeria all
have at bottom,

a system of reality

which compels them
to, for example,

in the case of the French
exile from Algeria,

to defend French reasons

for having ruled Algeria.

The Mississippi or
Alabama Sheriff,

who really does believe
when he's facing

a Negro boy or girl,
that this woman,

this man, this child,

must be insane to

attack the system to which

he owes his
entire identity.

Of course, for
such a person,

the proposition of which

which we're trying to

discuss here tonight
does not exist.

And on the other hand,

I have to speak as

one other people who've
been most attacked

by what they must
now here call the

Western or the European
system of reality.

What white people
in the world,

the of white supremacy,

I hate to say it here
comes from Europe.

That's how it
got to America.

Beneath then, whatever
one's reaction

to this proposition
is has to

be the question
or whether or

not civilizations can
be considered as such,

equal or whether one
civilization has

the right to overtake and

subjugate and in fact
to destroy another.

Now, what happens
when that happens,

leaving aside all
the physical facts

which one can quote,

leaving aside
rape or murder,

leaving aside the bloody

catalog of oppression,

which we are in one way

too familiar with already.

What this does to the

subjugated, the
most private,

the most serious thing

this does to
the subjugated,

is to destroy his
sense of reality.

It destroys, for example,

his father's
authority over him.

His father can
no longer tell

him anything because
the past has

disappeared and his father

has no power in the world.

This means in the case
of an American Negro,

born in that
glittering republic,

at the moment
you are born,

since you don't
know any better.

Every stick in stone and
every face is white,

and since you have not
yet seen a mirror,

you suppose that
you are too.

It comes as a great shock

around the age
of five or six

or seven to discover

the flag to which you have

pledged allegiance,

along with everybody else,

as not pledge
allegiance to you.

It comes as a
great shock to

discover that Gary
Cooper killing

off the Indians
when you were

rooting for Gary Cooper,

that the Indians
were you. [LAUGHTER]

It comes as a great shock

to discover that
the country,

which is your birthplace

and to which you
owe your life and

your identity has not

in its whole
system of reality,

evolved any place for you.

The disaffection,
the demoralization,

and the gap between
one person and

another only on the basis

of the color of
their skins,

begins there
and accelerates

throughout a
whole lifetime.

So the presently you
realize you're 30,

and are having a terrible
time managing to

trust your countrymen
By the time you are 30,

you have been through
a certain mill,

and the most
serious effect

of the mill you've

been through is again,

not the catalogue
of disaster.

The policemen,
the taxi drivers,

the waiters, the landlady,

the landlord, the banks,

the insurance companies,

the millions of details,

24 hours of every day,

which spell out to

you that you are a
worthless human being.

It is not that. Is by

that time you've
begun to see it

happening in
your daughter or

your son or your
niece or your nephew.

You are 30 by now,

and nothing you have done

has helped to
escape the trap.

But what is
worse than that

is that nothing
you have done,

and as far as you can
tell nothing you can

do will save your son or

your daughter from
meeting the same disaster

and not impossibly
coming to the same end.

Now, we're speaking about

expense and I suppose

there are several ways

to address oneself, too.

Some attempt to define

what that word means here.

Let me put it this way,

that from a very
literal point of view,

the harbors and
the ports and

the railroads
of the country.

The economy,

especially of the
southern states

could not conceivably
be what it has

become if they had

not had and do
not still have,

indeed, and for so long,

so many generations
cheap labor.

I am stating
very seriously,

and this is not
an overstatement.

That I picked the coffee,

and I carried it to
market and I built

the railroad under

someone else's
whip for nothing.

The southern Alagachi
which has until today,

so much power in
Washington, and therefore,

some power in the world

was created by
my labor and

my sweat and the violation

of my women and the
murder of my children.

This in the land of
the free and the home

of the brave and

no one can challenge
that statement,

it is a matter of
historical record.

In another way this dream,

and we'll get
to the dream in

a moment is at

the expense of the
American Negro.

You watch this in

the Deep South
in great relief,

but not only in
the Deep South.

In the Deep South,

you are dealing with a
sheriff or landlord or

landlady or the girl of

the Western Union desk.

And she doesn't know

quite who she's
dealing with,

by which I mean that

if you're not
part of the town,

and if you are a
northern nigger,

it shows in
millions of ways.

So she simply knows

that it's an
unknown quantity,

and she wants to have
nothing to do with it.

So she won't talk to you,

you have to wait for

a while to get
your telegram.

We all know this,
we've been through it,

and by the time you
get to be a man,

it's very easy
to deal with.

But what is happening
in the poor woman,

the poor man's
mind is this.

They have been
raised to believe,

and by now they
helplessly believe,

no matter how terrible
their lives may be,

and their lives have
been quite terrible.

No matter how
far they fall,

no matter what disaster
overtakes them,

they have one enormous

knowledge and consolation,

which is like a
heavenly revelation,

at least they
are not black.

Now, I suggest that of

all the terrible
things that

can happen to
a human being

that is one of the worst.

I suggest that what
has happened to

white southerners
is in some ways,

after all, much worse

than what has happened
to Negroes there.

Because Sheriff
Clark in Selma,

Alabama, cannot
be considered,

no one can be dismissed
as a total monster.

I'm sure he loves his
wife, his children.

I'm sure that
[LAUGHTER] he

likes to get drunk.

After all, one's
got to assume and

he is visibly
a man like me.

He doesn't know
what drives

him to use the club,

to menace with the gun,

and to use the
cattle prod.

Something awful must have

happened to a human being,

to be able to put
a cattle prod

against a woman's
breast, for example.

What happens to the
woman is ghastly.

What happens to the
man who does it

is in some ways
much much worse.

This is being
done after all.

Not 100 years
ago, but in 1965,

in a country which
is blessed with

what we call prosperity,

where do you want to
examine too closely?

With a certain
social coherence,

which calls itself a

civilized nation and which

espouses the notion
of the freedom

of the world and

it is perfectly true
from the point of view

now simply of an
American Negro.

Any American Negro
watching this,

no matter where he is,

from the vantage
point of Holland,

which is another
terrible place,

has to say to himself,

in spite of what the
government says,

the government
says, we can't

do anything about it.

But those are white
people being murdered

in Mississippi work farms,

being carried off to jail,

those are white children,

running up and
down the streets,

the government
would find some way

of doing something
about it.

We have a Civil
Rights Bill now.

We had an amendment,
the 15th Amendment

nearly 100 years ago.

I hate to sound again like

an old Testament prophet

but if the amendment
was not honored then,

I don't have any
reason for believing

the Civil Rights Bill
will be honored now.

And after all,
one's been there,

since before,

a lot of other
people got there.

If one has got

to prove one's
title to the land,

isn't 400 years enough?

400 years, at
least three wars.

The American
soil is full of

the corpses of
my ancestors.

Why is my freedom
or my citizenship,

or my right to live there,

how is it conceivably
a question now?

And I suggest further
that in the same way,

the moral life of

Alabama Sheriffs and

poor Alabama white ladies,

their moral
lives have been

destroyed by the
plague called color.

That the American sense

of reality has been
corrupted by it.

At the risk of
sounding excesses.

What I always felt when

I finally left
the country.

Found myself abroad
in other places,

and watched Americans
abroad and these

are my countrymen and
I do care about them.

And even if I didn't,

there is something
between us,

we have the
same shorthand.

I know, when

I look at a girl or a
boy from Tennessee,

where they came
from in Tennessee,

and what that means.

No Englishman knows
that, no Frenchman,

no one in the world
knows that except

another black man who

comes from the same place.

The one watches
these lonely people

denying the only
kin they have.

We talk about integration

in America as though it

was some great
new conundrum.

The Parliament in America,
though we've been

integrated for
very long time.

Put me next to any

African and you
will see what I

mean and my grandmother
was not a rapist.

What we are not facing

is the results of
what we've done.

What one brags the
American people to do for

all our sakes is

simply to accept
our history.

I was there not
only as a slave,

but also as a concubine.

One knows the
power after all,

which can be used
against another person

who've got absolute
power over that person.

It seemed to me when I
watched Americans in

Europe but they didn't
know about Europeans.

Was what they didn't
know about me.

They weren't trying,
for example,

to be nasty to
the French girl

or rude to the
French waiter.

They didn't know, they
hurt their feelings.

They didn't have any sense

this particular woman,
this particular man,

though they spoke
another language

and had different
manners and

ways was a human being.

And they walked over them

the same bland ignorance,
condescension,

charming and cheerful,

with which they
had always patted

me on the head
and called me

shine and were upset
when I was upset.

What is relevant
about this is that,

whereas 40 years ago
when I was born,

the question of
having to deal

with what is unspoken
by the subjugated,

what is never said
to the master.

Having to deal with
this reality was

a very remote possibility,

I was in no one's mind.

When I was growing up, I

was taught in American
history books,

that Africa had
no history,

and neither did I,

that I was a savage

about who the less
said the better,

who had been
saved by Europe

and brought to America.

And of course,
I believed it,

I didn't have much choice

those are the only
books there were.

Everyone else
seem to agree

if you walk out of Harlem,

ride out of
Harlem, downtown,

the world agrees, what you

see is much
bigger, cleaner,

wider, richer, safer,
than where you are.

They collect the garbage,

people obviously can

pay their life insurance.

The children look
happy, safe,

you're not, and
you go back home.

And it would seem
then, of course,

that it's an act of
God that this is true,

that you belong,

where white people
have put you.

It is only since the
Second World War,

that there has
been a counter

image in the world.

And that image not come

about through any
legislation on

the part of any
American government,

but through the
fact that Africa

was suddenly on the
stage of the world,

and Africans
had to be dealt

with in a way

that never been
dealt with before.

This gave an American

Negro for the first time

a sense of himself beyond

a savage or a clown.

It is created and will

create a great
many conundrums.

One of the great things

that the white world does

not know but I
think I do know,

is that black
people are just

like everybody else.

One has used the
myths of Negro and

the myth of color to

pretend and to
assume that you are

dealing essentially
with something exotic,

bizarre, and
practically according

to human laws unknown.

Alas, that is not true.

We are also
mercenaries, dictators,

murderers, fliers.
We are human too.

What is crucial here,

is unless we can
manage to establish

some dialogue
between those people

whom I pretend has paid

for the American dream

and those other
people who have

not achieved it,

we will be in
terrible trouble.

I want to say at the end,

the last, is that

that is what
concerns me most.

We are sitting in
this room and we are

all we like to
think we are,

relatively civilized,
and we can

talk to each other at

least on certain levels.

So that we could walk
out of here assuming

that the measure of
our enlightenment or

at least our politeness

has some effect
on the world.

It may not. I remember,

for example, when the
ex Attorney General,

Mr. Robert Kennedy, said

that it was conceivable

that in 40 years
in America,

we might have a
Negro president.

And that sounded like

a very emancipated
statement,

I suppose, to
white people.

They were not in Harlem

when this statement
was first heard,

and did not hear and
possibly will never

hear the laughter and

the bitterness
and the scorn,

which the statement
was greeted.

From the point of
view of the man in

the N Harlem barbershop,

Bobby Kennedy
only got here

yesterday and now he's

already on his way
to the presidency.

We've been here
for 400 years,

and now he tells us
that maybe in 40 years,

if you're good, we

may let you
become president.

What is dangerous here
is the turning away

from anything any
white American says.

The reason for
the political

hesitation in spite of

the Johnson landslide
is the one who's been

betrayed by American
politicians for so long.

I'm a grown man,
and perhaps

I can be reasoned with,

I certainly hope I can be.

But I don't know and

neither does Martin
Luther King,

none of us know how to

deal with those
other people whom

the white world has
so long ignored,

who don't believe
anything the white world

says and don't entirely
believe anything

I or Martin say.

And one can't blame them,

you watch what
has happened to

them in less
than 20 years.

It seems to me that
the City of New York,

for example, this
is my last point.

We said Negroes
lived in it for

a very long time.

If the City of New York

were able as it has
indeed been able,

in the last 15 years
to reconstruct itself,

teared down buildings and

raise great new ones,

downtown and for money.

And it has done
nothing whatever

except build
housing projects in

the ghetto for the Negroes

and of course,
Negroes hate it.

Presently, the property

doesn't deteriorate
because

the children
cannot bear it.

They want to get
out of the ghetto.

If the American
pretensions

were based on more solid,

a more honest assessment

of life and of themselves,

it would not
mean for Negroes

when someone says

urban renewal that Negroes

simply going to be

thrown out into
the streets.

This is what it
does mean now.

This is not an act of God,

we're dealing with
a society made

and ruled by men.

If the American Negro

had not been
present in America,

I'm convinced that
the history of

the American labor
movement would

be much more
edifying than it is.

It is a terrible thing

for an entire people to

surrender to
the notion that

one ninth of its population
is beneath them.

And until that moment,

until the moment
comes, when we,

the American people are

able to accept the fact

that I have to accept,

for example, that
my ancestors are

both white and black.

That on that continent,

we are trying to forge

a new identity for which
we need each other,

and that I am not
a ward of America.

I'm not an object of
missionary charity.

I am one of the people
who built the country.

Until this
moment, there are

scarcely any hope for
the American dream

because the people who are

denied participation in

it by their very
presence will wreck it,

and if that happens,

it's a very grave
moment for the West.

Thank you. [APPLAUSE].

>> Tremendously
moving moment now.

The whole of the
Union standing and

applauding this
magnificent speech

of James Baldwin.

Never seen this
happen before in

the Union in all the years

that I have known it.

Baldwin smiling,
obviously,

delighted by
his reception,

tremendously moved by it.

>> I am now very
grateful and

very pleased to
be able to call

Mr. William F Buckley
junior to speak

forth to this
motion.[APPLAUSE]

>> Now, we have Mr.
William Buckley,

who will need
all his skill to

establish ascendency
over his audience,

which has clearly been
so deeply moved by the

eloquent and
personal experience,

the preceding speaker.

>> Take, Mr.
President, gentlemen.

It seems to me that of

all the indictments
Mr. Baldwin,

has made of America are

here tonight and in

his copious literature
of protest.

The one that is most
striking involves in

effect the refusal of

the American community to

treat him other
than as a Negro.

The American community has

refused to do this.

The American
community almost

everywhere he goes,

treats him with the
kind of unction.

The kind of satisfaction

at posturing carefully for

his flagellations of
our civilization,

that indeed, are
quite properly of

commands the
contempt which

he so eloquently
showers upon it.

It is impossible in

my judgment to deal

with the indictment
of Mr. Baldwin,

unless one is prepared to

deal with him
as a white man.

Unless one is prepared
to say to him,

the fact that your
skin is black

is utterly irrelevant to

the arguments
that you raise.

The fact that you
sit here as is

your rhetorical
device and lay

the entire weight of
the Negro ordeal on

your own shoulders
is irrelevant

to the argument that we
are here to discuss.

The gravamen of
Mr. Baldwin's

charges against
America are

not so much that our
civilization has failed

him and his people

that our ideals
are insufficient,

but that we
have no ideals.

That our ideals,

rather or some sort of
a superficial coating,

which we come up with at

any given moment in order
to justify whatever

commercial and
anoxious experiment

we are engaged in.

Thus, Mr. Baldwin
can write his book,

the fire next time,

in which he
threatens America.

He didn't in writing
that book speak with

the British accents that

he used exclusively
tonight.

In which he threatened
America with

necessity for us to

jettison our entire
civilization.

The only thing that

the white man has that
the Negro should want,

he said is power.

And he is treated from

coast to coast
United states

with anguish
[BACKGROUND] goes

beyond anything that
was ever expected from

the most servile
Negro creature

by a southern family.

I propose to pay
him the honor

this night saying to
him, Mr. Baldwin,

I am going to speak
to you without

any reference whatever to

those surrounding
protections which you

are used to in virtue of

the fact that
you are a Negro.

And here we need to
ask the question.

What, in fact, shall
we do about it, Mr.

Present? What shall we in

America try to
do, for instance,

to eliminate those
psychic humiliation,

which I join Mr.
Baldwin in believing,

are the very worst aspects

of this discrimination?

Are you found
that a source of

considerable birth
to laugh away

the statistics of my
colleague, Mr. Burford.

I don't think they
are insignificant.

They are certainly
not insignificant,

or in a world
which attaches

a considerable importance

to material progress.

It is, in fact, the case,

that seven tenths
of the white income

of the United States

is equal to the
income that is

made by the average Negro.

I don't think this
is an irrelevant

statistic ladies
and gentlemen.

It takes a
capitalization of 15,16,

$17,000 per job in

the United States. This
is a capitalization.

That it was not created

exclusively as a result
of negro travail.

My great grandparents
worked too,

presumably yours
worked also.

I don't know if anything
that has ever been

created without the
expense of something,

all of you who hope for

a diploma here
are going to do

that at the expense

of a considerable
amount of effort.

And I would thank you.

Please [LAUGHTER] not
to belie the fact that

a considerable amount
of effort went into

the production of
a system which

grants a greater degree
of material well

being to the
American negro

other than that that is

enjoyed by 95% of

the other peoples
of the human race.

But even so, to

the extent that your
withering laughter

suggested here
that you found

this a contemptible
observation, I agree.

I don't think it
matters that there are

35 millionaires among
the negro community.

If there were 20
million millionaires

among the negro community

of the United States,

I would still
agree with you.

That we have a
dastardly situation.

But I'm asking you not
to make politics as

the pro flies to use

the fleeted phrase of
Professor Oakeshott,

but rather to
consider, what in

fact is it that we
Americans ought to do?

What are your
instructions that

I'm to take back to
the United States,

my friend [LAUGHTER] I

want to know what it
is that we should do,

and especially
I want to know

whether it is
time, in fact,

to abandon the
American dream,

as it has been defined

by Mr. Haycock,
Mr. Burford.

What in fact is it that

we ought to do
for instance?

To avoid do humiliations
mentioned by Mr.

Baldwin as being a part of

his own experience
during his lifetime.

At the age of 12, you

will find on
reading his book,

he trespassed
outside the ghetto

of Harlem and was

taken by the scruff
of the neck by

a policeman on 42nd Street

in Madison
Avenue and said,

here you nigger, go back

to where you belong.

Fifteen, 20 years later,

he goes in and asks
for a scotch whiskey

at the airport
at Chicago and

is told by the white
barman that he is

obviously underage
and under

the circumstances
cannot be served.

I know from your
faces that you

share with me
the feeling of

compassion and
the feeling of

outrage that this kind

of thing should
have happened.

What, in fact, are we

going to do to
this policeman?

And what in fact
are we going to

do to this barman?

How are we going to avoid?

The kind of
humiliations that are

perpetually
visited on members

of the minority race.

Obviously, the first
element is concern.

We've got the care
that it happens.

We have got to do what we

can to change the
warp and woof of

moral thought
in society in

such fashion as to try

to make it happen
less and less.

Let me urge this
point to you,

which I can do with
authority, my friends.

The only thing that I can

tonight and that is to

tell you that in
the United States,

there is a concern for
the negro problem.

Now [LAUGHTER]
[APPLAUSE] if you get

up to me and say,

well, now, is there
the kind of concern

that we students of
Cambridge would show,

if the problem
were our own?

All I can say is
I don't know.

It may very well be

that there has
been some sort of

a sunburst of moral
enlightenment

that has hit
this community.

[LAUGHTER] So
as to make it

predictable that
if you were

the governors of
the United States,

the situation would
change overnight.

I'm prepared to
grant this as

a form of courtesy,
Mr. President.

[LAUGHTER] But meanwhile,
I'm saying to you

that the engines
of concern

in the United
States are working.

The presence of Mr.
Baldwin here tonight is

in part a reflection
of that concern.

[LAUGHTER] You cannot go

to a university in
the United States.

A university in
the United States

presumably also

governed by the Lord
spiritual as you are,

in which Mr.
Baldwin is not

the toast of the town.

You cannot go to

a university of
the United States,

in which practically
all other problems

of public policy are

preempted by the
primary policy

of concern for the negro.

I challenge you to name

me another
civilization anytime,

anywhere in the
history of the world,

in which the problems of

a minority which
have been showing

considerable material

and political
advancement is

as much a subject of

dramatic concern as it

is in the United States.

Let me just say,

finally, ladies
and gentlemen,

this, there is

no instant cure for

the race problem
in America.

And anybody who tells
you that there is is

a charlatan and
ultimately a boring man,

a boring precisely because

he is then speaking in

the kind of
abstractions that do

not relate to the
human experience.

The trouble in America,

where the negro community
is concerned is

a very complicated one.

I urge those of you who

have an actual rather than

a purely ideologized
interest

in the problem to read

the book beyond
the melting part

by Professor Glazer,

also co author of
the Lonely Crowd,

a prominent Jewish
intellectual,

who points to
the fact that

the situation in America
where the negroes

are concerned is
extremely complex as

a result of

an unfortunate conjunction
of two factors.

One is the
dreadful efforts

to perpetuate
discrimination by

many individual
American citizens as

a result of their lack of

that final and
ultimate concern which

some people are truly
trying to agitate

the other is as

a result of the failure of

the negro community
itself to make

certain exertions
which were

made by other
minority groups

during the American
experience.

If you can stand
a statistic

not of my own making,

let me give you one which

Professor Glazer
considers as relevant.

He says, for
instance, in 1900,

there were 3,500 negro
doctors in America.

In 1960, there were 3,900,

an increase in 400.

Is this because there
were no opportunities,

as has been
suggested by Mr.

Haycock and also by Mr.
Baldwin implicitly?

No, says Professor Glazer.

There are a great
many medical schools

who are by no means
practice discrimination,

who are anxious
to receive,

to train negro doctors.

There are scholarships
available

to put them through.

But in fact, that
particular energy,

which he remarks was so

noticeable in the
Jewish community and to

a certain and
lesser extent in

the Italian
Irish community

for some reason
is not there.

We should focus on

the necessity to

animate this
particular energy,

but he comes to
the conclusion

which strikes me
as plausible.

That the people who
can best do it,

who can do it
most effectively

are negroes themselves.

Let me conclude
by reminding you,

ladies and gentlemen, that

where the negro
is concerned,

the dangers as far
as I can see at

this moment is
that they will

seek to reach out
for some sort of

radical solutions
on the basis of

which the true
problem is obscured.

They have done a great
deal to focus on

the fact of

white discrimination
against the negroes.

They have done
a great deal to

agitate a moral concern,

but where in fact,
do they go now?

They seem to be slipping.

If you will read
carefully, for instance,

the words of Mr.
Bayard Rustin towards

some sort of a
procrustan formulation

which ends up less urging

the advancement
of the negro

than the regression
of the white people.

Fourteen times as
many people in

New York City born of

negroes are illegitimate
as of whites.

This is a problem. How
shall we address it?

By seeking out laws that

encourage illegitimacy
in white people?

This unfortunately
tends to be

the rhetorical
momentum that

some of their
arguments are taken.

>> One thing you might do,

Mr. Buckley is let them

vote in Mississippi
[APPLAUSE]

>> I couldn't agree
with you more

[LAUGHTER]

except unless I appear
too ingratiating,

which is hardly my
objective here tonight.

I think actually what

is wrong in
Mississippi, sir,

is not that not enough
negroes are voting,

but that too many
white people

are voting [LAUGHTER]

Booker T. Washington said

that the important
thing where negroes are

concerned is not that

they hold public office,

but that they be

prepared to hold
public office.

Not that they vote,

but that they be
prepared to vote.

What are we
going to do with

the negroes having taught

the negroes in Mississippi

to despise Rose Barnett?

Shall we then teach
them to emulate

their cousins in Harlem

and adore Adam Clayton
Powell Junior?

Well, it is much
more complicated,

sir, than simply
the question

of giving them the vote.

If I were myself
a constituent

of the community of

Mississippi at
this moment,

what I would do
is vote to lift

the standards of
the vote so as to

disqualify 65%

of the white people who
are presently voting

[LAUGHTER]
[APPLAUSE] I say

then that what we need

is a considerable
amount of

frankness that
acknowledges that

there are two sets
of difficulties.

The difficulties of
the white person

who acts as white
people and brown people

and black people
do all over

the world to protect

their own vested
interests,

who have, as all of

the races in the
entire world have,

and suffer from a kind of

a racial narcissism,

which tends
always to convert

every contingency
into such a way

as to maximize
their own power.

That, yes, we must do.

But we must also reach

through to the negro
people and tell them

that their best
chances are in

a mobile society and

the most mobile society
in the world today,

my friends, is the United
States of America.

The most mobile society of

the United States
in the world

is the United
States of America,

and it is precisely
that mobility,

which will give
opportunities

to the negroes,

which they must
be encouraged to

take, but they must not.

In the course of
their ordeal,

be encouraged to adopt
the kind of cynicism,

the kind of despair,

the kind of iconoclasm

that is urged upon them

by Mr. Baldwin in
his recent works,

because of one thing,
I can tell you,

I believe with
absolute authority,

that where the United
States is concerned,

if it ever becomes
a confrontation,

between a continuation of

our own sort of idealism.

The private stock
of which granted,

like most people
in the world,

we tend to lavish only
every now and then on

public enterprises
reserving it so

often for our own
irritations and pleasures.

But the fundamental
trend of

the negro people in

the United States is
the good nature and is

the generosity and is
the good wishes is

the fundamental
decency that do

lie at the reserves of

the spirit of the
American people.

These must not
be laughed at.

And under no circumstances

must they be laughed at,

and under no circumstances
must America be

addressed and hold that

the only alternative
to the status quo,

is to overthrow
that civilization,

which we consider to

be the faith of
our fathers,

the faith indeed
of your fathers.

This is what must animate

whatever meliorism
must come

because if it does
finally come to

a radical confrontation

between giving up what

we understand to be

the best features of

the American way of life,

which at that level is

indistinguishable
so far as

I can see from the
European way of life.

Then we will
fight the issue.

And we will fight
the issue, not

only in the
Cambridge Union,

but we will fight it as

you were once recently

called to do on beaches

and on hills and
on mountains,

and on landing grounds,

and we will be convinced
that just as you won

the war against

a particular threat
to civilization,

you were
nevertheless waging

a war in favor of than

for the benefit of
Germans, your own enemies,

just as we are convinced
that if it should

ever come to that kind
of a confrontation,

our own determination to

win the struggle will be

a determination to wage

a war not only for whites,

but also for
negroes [APPLAUSE]

>> Will the tellers

take their places, please?

They voted in favor
of the motion,

the motion being at
the American dreams

at the expense
of the negro.

They voted in favor
of that motion,

544 persons and
against 164 persons.

The motion is therefore
carried by 380 votes.

I declare the
House to stand

adjourned. [APPLAUSE]