0:00:09.104,0:00:11.649 [music] 0:00:17.252,0:00:19.990 Narrator:[br]The following program is from NET: 0:00:19.990,0:00:22.680 The National[br]Educational Television Network. 0:00:25.200,0:00:29.303 - Debate:[br]James Baldwin versus William Buckley. 0:00:29.303,0:00:31.689 Subject: Has the American Dream 0:00:31.689,0:00:34.869 Been Achieved at[br]the Expense of the American Negro? 0:00:34.869,0:00:39.639 This debate was held recently at the [br]Cambridge Union, Cambridge University 0:00:39.639,0:00:44.360 England, and was recorded for use by NET.[br] 0:00:44.360,0:00:47.040 Norman St. John Stevas, M.P: [br]Well, here we are in the debating hall 0:00:47.040,0:00:52.918 of the Cambridge Union, hundreds of[br]undergraduates and myself waiting for what 0:00:52.918,0:00:57.387 could prove one of the most exciting [br]debates in the whole 150 years 0:00:57.387,0:01:00.726 of the union history. [br]It rarely... I don't think I have ever 0:01:00.726,0:01:04.253 seen the union so well attended.[br]There are undergraduates everywhere. 0:01:04.253,0:01:07.506 They're on the benches and on the floor[br]and on the galleries. And there are a lot 0:01:07.506,0:01:12.855 more outside clamoring to get in.[br]Well, the motion that has drawn this huge 0:01:12.855,0:01:18.708 crowd tonight is this: That the American[br]Dream has been achieved at the expense 0:01:18.708,0:01:23.980 of the American negro. The debate will [br]open with two undergraduate speakers, 0:01:23.980,0:01:27.417 one from each side, and then we shall[br]have the first distinguished guest, 0:01:27.417,0:01:32.855 Mr James Baldwin, the well-known American[br]novelist who has achieved a worldwide 0:01:32.855,0:01:38.132 fame with his novel "Another Country."[br]Then opposing the motion will be 0:01:38.132,0:01:42.759 Mr. William Buckley, also an American.[br]Very well-known as a conservative in the 0:01:42.759,0:01:46.594 United States. I must stress a conservative[br]in the American sense. Author of a book 0:01:46.594,0:01:51.610 called "Up from Liberalism" and editor of[br]the "National Review." One of the early 0:01:51.610,0:01:55.880 supporters of Senator Goldwater.[br]Well, this is the setting of the debate, 0:01:55.880,0:02:00.720 and at any moment now, the president[br]will be leading in his officers and his 0:02:00.720,0:02:05.031 distinguished guests. He will take his [br]chair, and the debate will begin. 0:02:07.191,0:02:09.381 [applause] 0:02:46.213,0:02:49.913 President: The motion before the house [br]tonight is "The American Dream is at 0:02:50.006,0:02:53.554 the Expense of the American Negro." [br]The proposer, Mr. David Heycock of 0:02:53.554,0:02:57.414 Pembroke College, and our opposer, Mr. [br]Jeremy Burford of Emmanuel College. 0:02:57.414,0:03:01.702 Mr. James Baldwin will speak third. Mr. [br]William F. Buckley Jr. will speak fourth. 0:03:01.702,0:03:04.024 Mr. Heycock is the ear of the house. 0:03:04.024,0:03:06.988 [applause] 0:03:15.123,0:03:19.099 David Heycock: Mr. President, sir, it is[br]the custom of the house for the first 0:03:19.099,0:03:22.869 speaker in any debate to extend a[br]formal welcome to any visitors to the 0:03:22.869,0:03:26.931 house. I can honestly say, however, it is[br]a very great honor to be able to welcome 0:03:26.931,0:03:31.005 to the house this evening Mr. William[br]Buckley and Mr. James Baldwin. 0:03:31.005,0:03:35.099 Mr. William Buckley has the reputation[br]of possibly being the most articulate 0:03:35.099,0:03:39.240 conservative in the United States of[br]America. He was a graduate of Yale, 0:03:39.240,0:03:42.614 and he first gained a reputation for[br]himself by publishing a book entitled 0:03:42.614,0:03:44.419 "God and Man at Yale." 0:03:44.419,0:03:46.934 [laughter] 0:03:46.934,0:03:50.393 Since then, he has devoted himself to[br]the secular, and this has included 0:03:50.393,0:03:54.613 Norman Mailer, Kenneth Tynan, Mary [br]McCarthy, and Fidel Castro, none of whom 0:03:54.613,0:03:57.063 have come out of their[br]confrontations unscathed. 0:03:57.063,0:03:58.250 [laughter] 0:03:58.250,0:04:02.782 At present, his principal occupation is[br]editing a right-wing newspaper in the 0:04:02.782,0:04:04.923 United States entitled [br]"The National Review." 0:04:04.923,0:04:09.011 Mr. James Baldwin is hardly in need of[br]introduction. His reputation both as a 0:04:09.011,0:04:13.881 novelist and as an advocate of civil [br]rights is international. His third novel 0:04:13.881,0:04:18.238 "Another Country" has been published as[br]a paperback in England today. Mr. Baldwin 0:04:18.238,0:04:21.843 and Mr. Buckley are both very welcome[br]to the house this evening. 0:04:21.843,0:04:24.128 [applause] 0:04:40.973,0:04:45.947 Imagine, Mr. President, a society which[br]above all values freedom and equality. 0:04:45.947,0:04:49.247 A society in which artificial barriers to[br]fulfillment and achievement 0:04:49.247,0:04:51.267 are unheard of. 0:04:51.267,0:04:54.319 A society in which a man[br]may begin his life as a rail splitter 0:04:54.319,0:04:56.089 and end it as president. 0:04:56.089,0:05:01.029 A society in which all men are free in[br]every sense of the word. Free to live 0:05:01.029,0:05:04.720 where they choose. Free to work where they[br]choose. Equal in the eyes of the law and 0:05:04.720,0:05:08.264 every public authority[br]and equal in the eyes of their fellows. 0:05:08.264,0:05:11.724 A society in fact in which[br]intolerance and prejudice 0:05:11.724,0:05:15.745 are meaningless terms.[br]Imagine, however, Mr. President, 0:05:15.745,0:05:20.019 that a condition of this utopia has[br]been a persistent and quite deliberate 0:05:20.019,0:05:24.889 exploitation of one ninth of its [br]inhabitants. That one man in nine has 0:05:24.889,0:05:28.870 been denied those rights, which the [br]rest of that society takes for granted. 0:05:28.870,0:05:32.769 That one man in nine does not have[br]a chance for fulfillment or realization 0:05:32.769,0:05:36.818 of his innate potentiality. That one [br]man in nine cannot promise his 0:05:36.818,0:05:41.801 children a secure future and unlimited[br]opportunities. Imagine this Mr. President 0:05:41.801,0:05:46.470 and you have, what is in my opinion,[br]the bitter reality of the American Dream. 0:05:46.470,0:05:51.092 A few weeks ago Martin Luther King had[br]to hold a non-violent demonstration in 0:05:51.092,0:05:55.720 Selma, Alabama in his drive to register [br]negro voters. By the end of the week 0:05:55.720,0:05:59.385 of his demonstrations, he was able to[br]write quite accurately in a national 0:05:59.385,0:06:03.801 fundraising letter from Selma, Alabama[br]jail, "There are more negros in prison 0:06:03.801,0:06:07.552 with me than there are on the voting[br]rolls." When King wrote that letter, 0:06:07.552,0:06:11.570 335 out of 32,700 0:06:11.570,0:06:16.469 negros in Dallas had the vote. [br]One percent of the Dallas population. 0:06:16.469,0:06:21.209 After a mass march to the courthouse,[br]237 negros, 0:06:21.209,0:06:25.089 King among them, were arrested.[br]The following day, 470 0:06:25.089,0:06:28.418 children, who had deserted [br]their classrooms to protest against 0:06:28.418,0:06:31.670 King's arrest, were charged with juvenile[br]delinquency. 0:06:31.670,0:06:33.758 [laughter] 0:06:33.758,0:06:36.929 36 adults on the same day were[br]charged with contempt of court for 0:06:36.929,0:06:40.161 picketing the courthouse while [br]state circuit court was in session. 0:06:40.161,0:06:43.611 On the following day,[br]111 people were arrested on the 0:06:43.611,0:06:46.989 same charge despite their claim that [br]they merely wanted to see the voting 0:06:46.989,0:06:52.139 registrar. 400 students were[br]arrested and taken to the armory, 0:06:52.139,0:06:56.574 where many of them spent the night[br]on a cold cement floor. The following 0:06:56.574,0:07:00.721 day, the demonstrations spread to [br]Marion, Alabama. In Marion, negros 0:07:00.721,0:07:05.089 outnumber whites by 11,500[br]to 6,000 people 0:07:05.089,0:07:10.761 and yet, only 300 are registered to vote.[br]Negros in Marion were anxious 0:07:10.761,0:07:14.920 to test the public accommodations section[br]of the civil rights law. They entered a 0:07:14.920,0:07:19.269 drugstore and there they were served [br]with Coca-Cola laced with salt and were 0:07:19.269,0:07:24.770 told that hamburgers had risen[br]to $5 each. After the arrest of 15 0:07:24.770,0:07:28.349 negros for protesting against[br]this treatment, 700 negros 0:07:28.349,0:07:32.080 boycotted their classes the next day[br]and marched in orderly fashion to the 0:07:32.080,0:07:37.694 jail. There, they sang civil rights songs[br]until they were warned by a state trooper 0:07:37.694,0:07:41.389 that they would be arrested if they sung[br]one more song. Of course, they sung 0:07:41.389,0:07:45.429 another song, and of course, all[br]700 were arrested. American 0:07:45.429,0:07:50.096 society has felt fit to use negro labor.[br]It has felt fit to use the blood of the 0:07:50.096,0:07:54.380 negro in two world wars. It has felt fit to[br]listen to his music. It has felt fit to laugh 0:07:54.380,0:07:57.901 at his jokes, and yet, as far as I am[br]concerned, it has never felt fit to 0:07:57.901,0:08:02.070 give the American negro a fair deal;[br]and for this reason Mr. President, 0:08:02.070,0:08:05.230 I will beg leave to propose the motion[br]that the American Dream 0:08:05.230,0:08:07.698 is at the expense[br]of the American negro. 0:08:07.698,0:08:10.058 [applause] 0:08:17.628,0:08:22.768 - I now call Mr. Jeremy Burford[br]of Emmanuel College to oppose the motion. 0:08:22.768,0:08:24.806 [applause] 0:08:28.571,0:08:32.747 Narrator: Now, we have Mr. Jeremy [br]Burford of Emmanuel College who 0:08:32.747,0:08:35.343 is the first undergraduate opposing[br]the motion. 0:08:37.473,0:08:41.495 Jeremy Burford: James Baldwin is[br]well known as one of the most vivid 0:08:41.495,0:08:46.322 and articulate writers about the negro[br]problem in America. Mr. Baldwin 0:08:46.322,0:08:50.329 had a difficult childhood, and he [br]has personally himself suffered 0:08:50.329,0:08:54.720 discrimination and ill treatment [br]in the south of America, and I would 0:08:54.720,0:09:00.775 like to say at this time that it is[br]not the purpose of this side of 0:09:00.775,0:09:06.921 the house to condone that in any[br]way at all. It is not our purpose to 0:09:06.921,0:09:13.512 oppose civil rights. It is our purpose[br]to oppose this motion. 0:09:13.512,0:09:17.816 [laughter] 0:09:17.816,0:09:20.977 Thank you, sir. Come and collect [br]your fee afterwards. 0:09:20.977,0:09:23.858 [laughter and applause] 0:09:26.923,0:09:31.812 This side of the house denies that the[br]American Dream has in any way been 0:09:31.812,0:09:36.088 helped by this undoubted inequality [br]and suffering of the negro. 0:09:36.088,0:09:41.295 We maintain that in fact it has hindered[br]the American Dream, and if there had 0:09:41.295,0:09:45.268 been equality, if there had been true [br]freedom of opportunity, the American 0:09:45.268,0:09:49.734 Dream would be very much more advanced[br]than it is now. If the American Dream has 0:09:49.734,0:09:54.755 made any progress, and I think it has, [br]it has been made in spite of the suffering 0:09:54.755,0:10:00.879 and inequality of the American negro and[br]not because of it. Now it is also implied 0:10:00.879,0:10:05.910 from this motion that the American Dream[br]is encouraging and worsening the suffering 0:10:05.910,0:10:07.769 of the American negro. 0:10:07.769,0:10:12.039 This is emphatically not the case.[br]The American Dream, 0:10:12.039,0:10:17.028 the American economic prosperity and[br]respect for civil liberties has been the 0:10:17.028,0:10:19.166 main factor in bringing about 0:10:19.166,0:10:22.386 the undoubted improvement[br]in race relations in America 0:10:22.386,0:10:24.893 in the last twenty years. 0:10:24.893,0:10:28.403 And Professor Arnold Rose who is[br]the author of "The Negro in America," 0:10:28.403,0:10:33.271 which is perhaps the definitive[br]work on the subject, who is also 0:10:33.271,0:10:36.864 a contributor of what was called[br]"The Freedom Pamphlet," 0:10:36.864,0:10:40.753 so I should imagine that if he has any[br]bias at all, it is in favor of the negro. 0:10:40.753,0:10:44.953 He's said that this improvement[br]in race relations 0:10:44.953,0:10:49.244 will be seen in years to come as[br]remarkably quick, and he has put it down 0:10:49.244,0:10:54.718 to three main causes: increased[br]industrialization and technical advance, 0:10:54.718,0:10:59.020 the increased social mobility of the[br]American people, and the economic 0:10:59.020,0:11:04.304 prosperity. And I would put it to this[br]house that that industrialization and 0:11:04.304,0:11:09.658 economic prosperity are two of the main[br]ingredients of the American Dream and 0:11:09.658,0:11:15.232 at the same time--again, I do not want to[br]say that the negro in America is treated 0:11:15.232,0:11:20.345 fairly--but at the same time, the average[br]per capita income of negros in America 0:11:20.345,0:11:25.773 is exactly the same as the average per[br]capita income of people in Great Britain. 0:11:25.773,0:11:30.974 Now, I found that absolutely amazing.[br][laughter] 0:11:30.974,0:11:36.414 [laughter][br]I understand that some of you do as well. 0:11:36.414,0:11:40.434 So I've got the reference here from the[br]United States News and World Report 0:11:40.434,0:11:44.333 of July the 22nd 1963,[br]in which it points out-- 0:11:44.333,0:11:47.593 This will have to be the last interruption [br]I take because time is running short. 0:11:47.593,0:11:50.717 - Mr. President, on a point[br]of information, is this speaker 0:11:50.717,0:11:53.139 talking of real income[br]or money income? 0:11:53.139,0:11:55.743 - I'm talking of money income.[br][applause] 0:11:57.989,0:12:01.491 I am talking of money income.[br]I would not wish to disguise that. 0:12:01.491,0:12:06.633 I would also say that in terms of this,[br]there are only five countries in the world 0:12:06.633,0:12:08.577 where the income is higher 0:12:08.577,0:12:11.696 than that of the American negro,[br]and they do not include countries like 0:12:11.696,0:12:18.076 West Germany and France and Japan.[br]Now, there are in America 35 0:12:18.076,0:12:24.537 negro millionaires. There are negro 6,000[br]doctors and so on. Now I do not by saying 0:12:24.537,0:12:29.055 this wish to emphasize that the negro is[br]fairly treated. I merely wish to try and 0:12:29.055,0:12:34.616 convey a more realistic and objective[br]account of the situation of the negro. 0:12:34.616,0:12:41.654 I agree that there are negros who are[br]very poor indeed, such as the... 0:12:43.584,0:12:45.549 Such as the old gentlemen in the south 0:12:45.549,0:12:50.559 who was talking about[br]some of his wealthier brethren 0:12:50.559,0:12:53.606 and he was saying "Yes, sir,[br]some of these rich negros, 0:12:53.606,0:12:56.586 they put on airs, they're like[br]the bottom figure of a fraction, 0:12:56.586,0:12:59.244 the bigger they try to be,[br]the smaller they really are." 0:12:59.244,0:13:04.657 I would repeat Mr. President, sir, in the [br]last minute I have, that this debate 0:13:04.657,0:13:08.294 is not whether civil rights should be[br]extended to American negros or not; 0:13:08.294,0:13:12.136 if it were, it would be a very easy [br]motion to argue for and a very easy 0:13:12.136,0:13:17.959 motion to vote for. The debate tonight[br]concerns whether the American Dream 0:13:17.959,0:13:22.694 is at the expense of the American negro.[br]That is whether the American negro has 0:13:22.694,0:13:27.004 paid for the American Dream with his[br]suffering or whether the American Dream 0:13:27.004,0:13:31.290 has furthered negro inequality, and[br]I would deny both those two precepts. 0:13:31.290,0:13:35.918 I would say that negro inequality has[br]hindered the American Dream, 0:13:35.918,0:13:39.298 and I would say that the American [br]Dream has been very important indeed 0:13:39.298,0:13:40.908 in furthering civil rights 0:13:40.908,0:13:43.418 and in furthering[br]freedom for the American negro. 0:13:43.418,0:13:46.023 Mr. President, sir, I beg to oppose [br]the motion. 0:13:46.023,0:13:48.675 [applause] 0:13:57.602,0:14:00.579 - It is now with very great pleasure[br]and a very great sense of 0:14:00.579,0:14:04.072 honor that I call Mr. James Baldwin[br]to speak third to this motion. 0:14:04.072,0:14:06.817 [applause] 0:14:12.658,0:14:18.302 Narrator: Now we have Mr. James Baldwin,[br]the star of the evening, who has been [br] 0:14:18.302,0:14:23.766 sitting, listening attentively and getting[br]a wonderful reception here in the 0:14:23.766,0:14:25.531 Cambridge Union. 0:14:25.531,0:14:29.791 From members, enthusiasm[br]from all sides of the house for 0:14:29.791,0:14:33.173 Mr. Baldwin, who has been[br]listening to the arguments. 0:14:33.173,0:14:35.711 Now will bring the voice of actual[br]experience to the debate. 0:14:35.711,0:14:37.097 James Baldwin: Good evening. 0:14:37.097,0:14:40.667 [laughter] 0:14:40.667,0:14:50.782 I find myself, not for the first time, in [br]the position of a kind of Jeremiah. 0:14:53.894,0:15:00.201 For example, I don’t disagree with [br]Mr. Burford that the inequality 0:15:00.201,0:15:04.067 suffered by the American Negro population[br]of the United States has hindered 0:15:04.067,0:15:07.730 the American Dream.[br]Indeed, it has. 0:15:07.730,0:15:14.425 I quarrel with some other things he [br]has to say. The other, deeper, element of 0:15:14.425,0:15:25.652 a certain awkwardness I feel[br]has to do with one’s point of view. 0:15:25.652,0:15:29.194 I have to put it that way--[br]one’s sense, one’s system of reality. 0:15:29.194,0:15:33.238 It would seem to me the proposition [br]before the house, and I would put it 0:15:33.238,0:15:37.304 that way, is the American Dream at the [br]expense of the American negro, 0:15:37.304,0:15:40.382 or the American Dream is at [br]the expense of the American negro, 0:15:40.382,0:15:46.506 is a question hideously loaded, [br]and that one’s response to that question, 0:15:46.506,0:15:52.515 one’s reaction to that question,[br]has to depend on effect and, in effect, 0:15:52.515,0:15:56.751 where you find yourself in the world, [br]what your sense of reality is, 0:15:56.751,0:16:04.072 what your system of reality is. [br]That is, it depends on assumptions which 0:16:04.072,0:16:08.069 we hold so deeply as to [br]be scarcely aware of them. 0:16:08.069,0:16:12.812 A white South African or [br]a Mississippi sharecropper or 0:16:12.812,0:16:18.572 Mississippi sheriff, or a Frenchman [br]driven out of Algeria, all have, at bottom, 0:16:18.572,0:16:24.616 a system of reality which compels [br]them to, for example, in the case of the 0:16:24.616,0:16:30.096 French exile from Algeria, to defend[br]French reasons for having ruled Algeria. 0:16:30.096,0:16:34.401 The Mississippi or the Alabama sheriff, [br]who really does believe, when he’s facing 0:16:34.401,0:16:40.380 a negro boy or girl, that this woman, [br]this man, this child must be insane to 0:16:40.380,0:16:45.027 attack the system to which he owes [br]his entire identity. Of course, to 0:16:45.027,0:16:48.840 such a person, the proposition of which [br]we are trying to discuss here tonight 0:16:48.840,0:17:01.589 does not exist. And on the other hand, [br]I have to speak as one of the people 0:17:01.589,0:17:07.285 who’ve been most attacked by what [br]we must now here call the Western or 0:17:07.285,0:17:14.634 European system of reality.[br]What white people in the world-- 0:17:14.634,0:17:18.282 white supremacy, I hate to say it here,[br]comes from Europe. 0:17:18.282,0:17:25.006 That's how it got to America. Beneath [br]then, whatever one’s reaction to this 0:17:25.006,0:17:30.282 proposition is, has to be the question [br]of whether or not civilizations can 0:17:30.282,0:17:36.281 be considered, as such, equal, or [br]whether one civilization has the right 0:17:36.281,0:17:41.024 to overtake and subjugate, and, in fact, [br]to destroy another. 0:17:42.724,0:17:48.894 Now, what happens when that happens? [br]Leaving aside all the physical facts which 0:17:48.894,0:17:54.329 one can quote. Leaving aside rape [br]or murder. Leaving aside the bloody 0:17:54.329,0:17:59.651 catalog of oppression, which we [br]are in one way too familiar with already, 0:17:59.651,0:18:04.816 what this does to the subjugated, [br]the most private, the most serious 0:18:04.816,0:18:09.994 thing this does to the subjugated, [br]is to destroy his sense of reality. 0:18:09.994,0:18:16.045 It destroys, for example, his father’s [br]authority over him. His father can no 0:18:16.045,0:18:19.792 longer tell him anything, because [br]the past has disappeared, and his 0:18:19.792,0:18:24.236 father has no power in the world. [br]This means, in the case of an 0:18:24.236,0:18:29.603 American negro, born in that [br]glittering republic, and the moment you 0:18:29.603,0:18:32.076 are born, since you don’t [br]know any better, 0:18:32.076,0:18:36.013 every stick and stone and [br]every face is white. 0:18:36.013,0:18:39.614 And since you have not yet seen [br]a mirror, you suppose that you 0:18:39.614,0:18:47.535 are, too. It comes as a great shock [br]around the age of 5, or 6, or 7, to 0:18:47.535,0:18:51.158 discover the flag to which [br]you have pledged allegiance, along with 0:18:51.158,0:18:56.006 everybody else, has not pledged [br]allegiance to you. It comes as a 0:18:56.006,0:18:59.229 great shock to discover that Gary [br]Cooper killing off the Indians, when you 0:18:59.229,0:19:06.499 were rooting for Gary Cooper, [br]that the Indians were you. It comes as a 0:19:06.499,0:19:11.172 great shock to discover that the [br]country which is your birthplace and to 0:19:11.172,0:19:17.078 which you owe your life and your identity,[br]has not, in its whole system of reality, 0:19:17.078,0:19:24.594 evovled any place for you. The [br]disaffection, the demoralization, and the 0:19:24.594,0:19:29.794 gap between one person and another [br]only on the basis of the color of their 0:19:29.794,0:19:35.977 skin, begins there and accelerates--[br]accelerates throughout a whole lifetime 0:19:35.977,0:19:40.338 to the present when you realize [br]you’re thirty and are having a terrible 0:19:40.338,0:19:48.176 time managing to trust your [br]countrymen. By the time you are thirty, 0:19:48.176,0:19:55.654 you have been through a certain [br]kind of mill. And the most serious effect 0:19:55.654,0:19:59.839 of the mill you’ve been through is, [br]again, not the catalog of disaster, 0:19:59.839,0:20:07.137 the policemen, the taxi drivers, [br]the waiters, the landlady, the landlord, 0:20:07.137,0:20:12.494 the banks, the insurance companies, [br]the millions of details, twenty four 0:20:12.494,0:20:17.492 hours of every day, which spell [br]out to you that you are a worthless 0:20:17.492,0:20:23.185 human being. It is not that. It’s by [br]that time, you’ve begun to see 0:20:23.185,0:20:28.373 it happening in your daughter or your [br]son, or your niece or your nephew. 0:20:28.373,0:20:33.370 You are thirty by now and nothing you [br]have done has helped you to 0:20:33.370,0:20:38.134 escape the trap. But what is worse [br]than that, is that nothing you 0:20:38.134,0:20:44.076 have done, and as far as you can tell, [br]nothing you can do, will save your 0:20:44.076,0:20:49.721 son or your daughter from meeting [br]the same disaster and not 0:20:49.721,0:20:58.956 impossibly coming to the same [br]end. Now, we’re speaking about 0:20:58.956,0:21:06.189 expense. I suppose there are [br]several ways to address oneself, 0:21:06.189,0:21:15.707 to... some attempt to define what that [br]word means here. Let me put it 0:21:15.707,0:21:23.042 this way, that from a very literal [br]point of view, the harbors and the 0:21:23.042,0:21:30.992 ports, and the railroads of the [br]country, the economy, 0:21:30.992,0:21:39.966 especially of the Southern [br]states, could not conceivably be 0:21:39.966,0:21:45.639 what it has become, if they had [br]not had, and do not still have, 0:21:45.639,0:21:55.215 indeed, for so long, so many generations,[br]cheap labor. I am stating very 0:21:55.215,0:22:04.234 seriously, and this is not an [br]overstatement: I picked the cotton, 0:22:04.234,0:22:13.254 and I carried it to market, [br]and I built the railroads under 0:22:13.254,0:22:19.557 someone else’s whip for nothing. [br]For nothing. 0:22:21.187,0:22:26.815 The Southern oligarchy, which has [br]until today so much power in 0:22:26.815,0:22:31.384 Washington, and therefore some [br]power in the world, was created 0:22:31.384,0:22:37.217 by my labor and my sweat, and the [br]violation of my women and the murder of 0:22:37.217,0:22:45.359 my children. This, in the land of [br]the free, and the home of the brave. 0:22:45.359,0:22:50.604 And no one can challenge that statement. [br]It is a matter of historical record. 0:22:52.254,0:23:00.925 In another way, this dream, and we’ll [br]get to the dream in a moment, 0:23:00.925,0:23:06.581 is at the expense of the American [br]negro. You watched this in the Deep South 0:23:06.581,0:23:14.756 in great relief. But not only in the [br]Deep South. In the Deep South, you 0:23:14.756,0:23:17.997 are dealing with a sheriff or a [br]landlord, or a landlady or the 0:23:17.997,0:23:28.204 girl of the Western Union desk, and [br]she doesn’t know quite who she’s 0:23:28.204,0:23:31.666 dealing with, by which I mean, [br]that if you’re not a part of the town, 0:23:31.666,0:23:38.514 and if you are a northern nigger, [br]it shows in millions of ways. 0:23:38.514,0:23:43.550 So she simply knows that it’s an [br]unknown quantity, and she wants to 0:23:43.550,0:23:46.730 have nothing to do with it because [br]she won’t talk to you, you have 0:23:46.730,0:23:49.790 to wait for a while to get your [br]telegram. OK, we all know this. 0:23:49.790,0:23:54.005 We've been through it and, by the [br]time you get to be a man, it’s very easy 0:23:54.005,0:23:58.873 to deal with. But what is happening in [br]the poor woman, the poor man’s mind 0:23:58.873,0:24:06.474 is this: they’ve been raised to believe, [br]and by now they helplessly believe, 0:24:06.474,0:24:11.743 that no matter how terrible their lives [br]may be, and their lives have been 0:24:11.743,0:24:17.154 quite terrible, and no matter how [br]far they fall, no matter what disaster 0:24:17.154,0:24:19.986 overtakes them, they have one [br]enormous knowledge in 0:24:19.986,0:24:24.856 consolation, which is like a heavenly [br]revelation: at least, they are not black. 0:24:26.546,0:24:33.504 Now I suggest that of all the terrible [br]things that can happen to a 0:24:33.504,0:24:37.840 human being, that is one of the worst. [br]I suggest that what has happened 0:24:37.840,0:24:42.045 to white southerners is in some ways, [br]after all, much worse than 0:24:42.045,0:24:51.624 what has happened to negroes [br]there, because Sheriff Clark in 0:24:51.624,0:24:58.412 Selma, Alabama, cannot be considered,[br]you know, no one can be 0:24:58.412,0:25:00.728 dismissed as a total monster. 0:25:00.728,0:25:02.908 I’m sure he loves his wife, his children. 0:25:02.908,0:25:05.988 I’m sure that, you know,[br]he likes to get drunk. 0:25:07.778,0:25:11.577 You know, after all, one’s got to[br]assume--and he is visibly a man like me. 0:25:14.007,0:25:21.348 But he doesn’t know what drives [br]him to use the club, to menace with the 0:25:21.348,0:25:25.224 gun, and to use the cattle prod. [br]Something awful must have happened to 0:25:25.224,0:25:28.793 a human being to be able to put [br]a cattle prod against a 0:25:28.793,0:25:32.464 woman’s breasts, for example. [br]What happens to the woman is ghastly. 0:25:32.464,0:25:37.933 What happens to the man who [br]does it is in some ways much, much worse. 0:25:39.313,0:25:46.043 This is being done, after all, not[br]a hundred years ago, but in 1965, 0:25:46.043,0:25:51.884 in a country which is blessed with what we[br]call prosperity, a word we won’t examine 0:25:51.884,0:25:59.194 too closely, with a certain kind of [br]social coherence, which calls itself a 0:25:59.194,0:26:04.658 civilized nation, and which espouses [br]the notion of the freedom of the 0:26:04.658,0:26:10.466 world. And it is perfectly true[br]from the point of view now 0:26:10.466,0:26:16.005 simply of an American negro, any[br]American negro watching this, no matter 0:26:16.005,0:26:19.504 where he is, from the vantage point of [br]Harlem, which is another terrible 0:26:19.504,0:26:24.494 place, has to say to himself, in spite of [br]what the government says, 0:26:24.494,0:26:29.488 the government says we can’t do [br]anything about it, but if those were 0:26:29.488,0:26:33.962 white people being murdered in [br]Mississippi work farms, being carried 0:26:33.962,0:26:37.784 off to jail, if those were white children [br]running up and down the streets, 0:26:37.784,0:26:41.303 the government would find some [br]way of doing something about it. 0:26:41.303,0:26:45.464 We have a civil rights bill now [br]where an amendment, we have 0:26:45.464,0:26:49.444 the 15th amendment, nearly a hundred [br]years ago--I hate to sound again 0:26:49.444,0:26:52.438 like an Old Testament prophet,[br]but if the amendment was not 0:26:52.438,0:26:55.646 honored then, I don't have any [br]reason to believe the civil rights 0:26:55.646,0:26:58.296 bill will be honored now. 0:26:58.296,0:27:02.004 And after all one’s been there, since [br]before, you know, a lot of other 0:27:02.004,0:27:09.562 people got there. If one has got[br]to prove one’s title to the land, 0:27:09.562,0:27:15.020 isn't 400 years enough? [br]400 years? At least three wars? 0:27:16.370,0:27:20.273 The American soil is full of the [br]corpses of my ancestors. 0:27:20.273,0:27:25.772 Why is my freedom or my citizenship, [br]or my right to live there, how 0:27:25.772,0:27:31.741 is it conceivably a question now? [br]And I suggest further, and in the 0:27:31.741,0:27:37.328 same way, the moral life of Alabama [br]sheriffs and poor Alabama ladies, 0:27:37.328,0:27:41.729 white ladies, their moral lives [br]have been destroyed by the 0:27:41.729,0:27:47.312 plague called color, that the American [br]sense of reality has been corrupted by it. 0:27:48.782,0:27:53.366 At the risk of sounding excessive, [br]what I always felt, when I finally 0:27:53.366,0:27:58.369 left the country, found myself abroad, [br]in other places, and watched 0:27:58.369,0:28:03.409 the Americans abroad, and these are [br]my countrymen, and I do 0:28:03.409,0:28:09.015 care about them, and even if I didn’t, [br]there is something between us. 0:28:09.015,0:28:14.133 We have the same shorthand, I know, [br]if I look at a boy or a girl from 0:28:14.133,0:28:18.162 Tennessee, where they came from in [br]Tennessee, and what that means. 0:28:18.162,0:28:21.962 No Englishman knows that. No Frenchman.[br]No one in the world knows that except 0:28:21.962,0:28:24.342 another black man who comes [br]from the same place. 0:28:25.262,0:28:32.852 One watches these lonely people.[br]Denying the only kin they have. 0:28:32.852,0:28:36.432 We talk about integration in America[br]as though it were some great new 0:28:36.432,0:28:40.622 conundrum. The problem in America[br]is that we have been integrated for 0:28:40.622,0:28:46.717 a very long time. Put me next to any [br]African and you will see what I mean. 0:28:46.717,0:28:52.607 My grandmother was not a racist.[br]What we are not facing... 0:28:54.647,0:28:58.732 is the results of what we've done. 0:28:58.732,0:29:04.222 What one begs the American people to do[br]for all our sakes is simply to 0:29:04.222,0:29:07.542 accept our history. 0:29:07.542,0:29:11.982 I was there not only as a slave[br]but also as a concubine. [br] 0:29:11.982,0:29:16.792 One knows the power afterall which [br]can be used against another person 0:29:16.792,0:29:18.922 who has absolute power over [br]that person. 0:29:21.472,0:29:24.598 It seemed to me when I watched [br]Americans in Europe that what they 0:29:24.598,0:29:30.863 didn’t know about Europeans was [br]what they didn’t know about me. 0:29:30.863,0:29:34.545 They weren’t trying, for example, to be [br]nasty to the French girl, or 0:29:34.545,0:29:39.312 rude to the French waiter. They [br]didn’t know they hurt their feelings. 0:29:39.312,0:29:43.715 They didn’t have any sense this [br]particular woman, this particular man, 0:29:43.715,0:29:46.246 though they spoke another language [br]and had different manners 0:29:46.246,0:29:51.284 and ways, was a human being. And [br]they walked over them with the same kind 0:29:51.284,0:29:59.068 of bland ignorance, condescension, [br]charming and cheerful with which 0:29:59.068,0:30:03.833 they’d always patted me on the head [br]and called me Shine and were upset 0:30:03.833,0:30:14.739 when I was upset. What is relevant [br]about this is that whereas forty years ago 0:30:14.739,0:30:22.549 when I was born, the question of having [br]to deal with what is unspoken 0:30:22.549,0:30:28.049 by the subjugated, what is never said [br]to the master, of ever 0:30:28.049,0:30:31.006 having to deal with this reality [br]was a very remote possibility. 0:30:31.006,0:30:35.403 It was in no one’s mind. When I was[br]growing up, I was taught in 0:30:35.403,0:30:39.665 American history books, that Africa had[br]no history, and neither did I. 0:30:41.555,0:30:47.902 That I was a savage about whom the less [br]said, the better, who had been 0:30:47.902,0:30:55.587 saved by Europe and brought to America. [br]And, of course, I believed it. 0:30:57.347,0:31:02.273 I didn’t have much choice. [br]Those are the only books there were. 0:31:02.273,0:31:05.322 Everyone else seemed to agree. 0:31:05.322,0:31:09.842 If you walk out of Harlem, ride out [br]of Harlem, downtown, the world 0:31:09.842,0:31:16.582 agrees what you see is much bigger, [br]cleaner, whiter, richer, safer 0:31:16.582,0:31:21.331 than where you are. They collect [br]the garbage. People obviously can 0:31:21.331,0:31:25.312 pay their life insurance. Their children [br]look happy, safe. You’re not. 0:31:25.312,0:31:31.289 And you go back home, and it would [br]seem that, of course, that it’s an act 0:31:31.289,0:31:38.527 of God that this is true! That you [br]belong where white people have put you. 0:31:40.657,0:31:45.403 It is only since the Second World War, [br]that there’s been a 0:31:45.403,0:31:48.872 counter-image in the world. And that [br]image did not come about through 0:31:48.872,0:31:53.807 any legislation or part of any[br]American government, but through 0:31:53.807,0:32:01.216 the fact that Africa was suddenly [br]on the stage of the world, and Africans 0:32:01.216,0:32:05.196 had to be dealt with in a way they’d [br]never been dealt with before. 0:32:05.196,0:32:09.688 This gave an American negro for [br]the first time a sense of himself 0:32:09.688,0:32:19.728 beyond a savage or a clown. It has [br]created and will create a great 0:32:19.728,0:32:23.970 many conundrums. One of the great [br]things that the white world 0:32:23.970,0:32:29.615 does not know, but I think I do know, [br]is that black people are just like 0:32:29.615,0:32:34.386 everybody else. One has used the [br]myth of negro and the myth of color 0:32:34.386,0:32:39.288 to pretend and to assume that you [br]were dealing, essentially, 0:32:39.288,0:32:43.755 with something exotic, bizarre, [br]and practically, according to human laws, 0:32:43.755,0:32:49.074 unknown. Alas, it is not true. [br]We’re also mercenaries, 0:32:49.074,0:32:54.662 dictators, murderers, liars. [br]We are human too. 0:32:56.512,0:33:01.279 What is crucial here is that unless [br]we can manage to accept, establish 0:33:01.279,0:33:08.420 some kind of dialog between those [br]people whom I pretend have paid 0:33:08.420,0:33:16.380 for the American Dream and those [br]other people who have not achieved it, 0:33:16.380,0:33:23.362 we will be in terrible trouble. I want [br]to say, at the end, the last, is that 0:33:23.362,0:33:28.335 is what concerns me most. We are [br]sitting in this room, and we are all, 0:33:28.335,0:33:32.347 at least we’d like to think we are, [br]relatively civilized, and we can talk to 0:33:32.347,0:33:38.717 each other at least on certain levels,[br]so that we could walk out of here 0:33:38.717,0:33:43.213 assuming that the measure of our [br]enlightenment, or at least, our 0:33:43.213,0:33:46.655 politeness, has some effect on [br]the world. It may not. 0:33:48.285,0:33:54.558 I remember, for example, when the [br]ex-attorney-general Mr. Robert Kennedy 0:33:54.558,0:34:01.239 said that it was conceivable that in [br]forty years, in America, we might have 0:34:01.239,0:34:08.079 a negro president. That sounded [br]like a very emancipated statement, 0:34:08.079,0:34:14.008 I suppose, to white people. They were [br]not in Harlem when this statement 0:34:14.008,0:34:19.648 was first heard. And did not hear, [br]and possibly will never hear the laughter 0:34:19.648,0:34:22.129 and the bitterness, and the scorn [br]with which this statement was greeted. 0:34:22.129,0:34:25.860 From the point of view of the man [br]in the Harlem barbershop, Bobby Kennedy 0:34:25.860,0:34:32.506 only got here yesterday, and he’s [br]already on his way to the presidency. 0:34:32.506,0:34:36.837 We’ve been here for 400 years[br]and now he tells us that maybe 0:34:36.837,0:34:42.541 in forty years, if you’re good, [br]we may let you become president. 0:34:44.371,0:34:52.922 What is dangerous here is the turning [br]away from--the turning away from 0:34:52.922,0:34:59.499 anything any white American says. [br]The reason for the political hesitation, 0:34:59.499,0:35:03.694 in spite of the Johnson landslide is [br]that one has been betrayed by American 0:35:03.694,0:35:08.707 politicians for so long. And I am a [br]grown man and perhaps I can be 0:35:08.707,0:35:16.767 reasoned with. I certainly hope I can be. [br]But I don’t know, and neither does 0:35:16.767,0:35:21.254 Martin Luther King, none of us know [br]how to deal with those other people 0:35:21.254,0:35:24.191 whom the white world has so long [br]ignored, who don’t believe anything 0:35:24.191,0:35:30.688 the white world says and don’t entirely [br]believe anything I or Martin is saying. 0:35:32.388,0:35:34.891 And one can’t blame them. You watch [br]what has happened to them in less than 0:35:34.891,0:35:42.247 twenty years. It seems to me that the[br]city of New York, for example, this is 0:35:42.247,0:35:49.744 my last point, has had negroes[br]in it for a very long time. 0:35:49.744,0:35:55.886 If the city of New York were able, as it [br]has indeed been able, in the last fifteen 0:35:55.886,0:36:01.029 years to reconstruct itself, tear down [br]buildings and raise great new ones, 0:36:01.029,0:36:07.829 downtown and for money, and has [br]done nothing whatever except build 0:36:07.829,0:36:15.299 housing projects in the ghetto for the [br]negroes. And of course, negroes hate it. 0:36:15.299,0:36:18.843 Presently the property does indeed [br]deteriorate because the children 0:36:18.843,0:36:26.391 cannot bear it. They want to get out [br]of the ghetto. If the American pretensions 0:36:26.391,0:36:33.077 were based on more solid, a more [br]honest assessment of life and of 0:36:33.077,0:36:39.094 themselves, it would not mean for negroes [br]when someone says “urban renewal,” 0:36:39.094,0:36:41.859 that negroes simply are gonna [br]be thrown out into the streets. 0:36:41.859,0:36:45.345 Which is what it does mean now. [br]This is not an act of God. We’re 0:36:45.345,0:36:52.490 dealing with a society made and ruled [br]by men. If the American negro had not 0:36:52.490,0:36:56.239 been present in America, I am convinced [br]that the history of the American labor 0:36:56.246,0:36:59.181 movement would be much [br]more edifying than it is. 0:36:59.181,0:37:05.783 It is a terrible thing for an entire [br]people to surrender to the notion 0:37:05.783,0:37:12.061 that one-ninth of its population is [br]beneath them. And until that moment, 0:37:12.061,0:37:18.277 until the moment comes when we, the [br]Americans, we, the American people, 0:37:18.277,0:37:23.305 are able to accept the fact, that I have [br]to accept, for example, that my ancestors 0:37:23.305,0:37:28.617 are both white and black, that on that [br]continent we are trying to forge a new 0:37:28.617,0:37:34.814 identity for which we need each other [br]and that I am not a ward of America, 0:37:34.814,0:37:40.512 I am not an object of missionary charity.[br]I am one of the people who built 0:37:40.512,0:37:46.772 the country, until this moment, there is [br]scarcely any hope for the American Dream, 0:37:46.772,0:37:53.418 because the people who are denied [br]participation in it, by their very 0:37:53.418,0:37:59.046 presence, will wreck it. And if that [br]happens, it is a very grave moment for 0:37:59.046,0:38:00.898 the West. Thank you. 0:38:00.898,0:38:04.449 [loud applause] 0:38:22.247,0:38:28.430 Narrator: Tremendously moving moment now.[br]The whole of the union standing and 0:38:28.430,0:38:34.945 applauding this magnificent speech of[br]James Baldwin. Never seen this happen 0:38:34.945,0:38:41.017 before in the union in all the years[br]that I have known it. Baldwin smiling, 0:38:41.017,0:38:46.493 obviously delighted by his reception,[br]tremendously moved by it. 0:38:46.493,0:38:48.707 [applause] 0:39:04.623,0:39:07.385 President: I am now very grateful [br]and very pleased to be 0:39:07.385,0:39:11.239 able to call Mr. William F Buckley Jr.[br]to speak fourth to this motion. 0:39:11.239,0:39:14.441 [applause] 0:39:19.409,0:39:23.436 Narrator: Now we have Mr. William [br]Buckley, who will need all his skill to 0:39:23.436,0:39:27.286 establish ascendancy over his audience, [br]which has clearly been so deeply 0:39:27.286,0:39:31.564 moved by the eloquence and personal [br]experience of the preceding speaker. 0:39:31.564,0:39:34.381 William Buckley: Thank you Mr. President, [br]Baldwin, Heycock, Burford, gentlemen. 0:39:39.391,0:39:49.242 It seems to me that of all the indictments[br]Mr. Baldwin has made of America[br] 0:39:49.242,0:39:58.894 here tonight and in his copious literature[br]of protest, that the one that is most 0:39:58.894,0:40:11.508 striking, involves, in effect, the refusal[br]of the American community to treat 0:40:11.508,0:40:19.647 him other than as a negro.[br]The American community has refused 0:40:19.647,0:40:26.424 to do this. The American community[br]almost everywhere he goes 0:40:26.424,0:40:36.061 treats him with a kind of unction,[br]of a kind of satisfaction at posturing 0:40:36.061,0:40:44.278 carefully for his flagellations[br]of our civilization. That indeed, 0:40:44.278,0:40:50.680 quite properly, commands the contempt[br]which he so eloquently showers upon us. 0:40:52.100,0:40:57.333 It is impossible in my judgment to deal[br]with the indictment of Mr. Baldwin 0:40:57.333,0:41:03.489 unless one is prepared to deal with him as[br]a white man. Unless one is prepared to 0:41:03.489,0:41:08.425 say to him, the fact that your skin is [br]black is utterly irrelevant to the 0:41:08.425,0:41:14.304 arguments that you raise, or the [br]fact that you sit here as is your 0:41:14.304,0:41:20.367 rhetorical device and lay the entire[br]weight of the negro ordeal on your 0:41:20.367,0:41:26.410 own shoulders is irrelevant to the[br]argument that we are here to discuss. 0:41:29.070,0:41:36.098 The gravamen of Mr. Baldwin's charges [br]against America are not so much that our 0:41:36.098,0:41:41.737 civilization has failed him and his [br]people. That our ideals are 0:41:41.737,0:41:48.772 insufficient or that we have no [br]ideals. That our ideals, rather, 0:41:48.772,0:41:54.372 are some sort of a superficial coating[br]which we come up with at any 0:41:54.372,0:41:58.756 given moment in order to justify[br]whatever commercial and 0:41:58.756,0:42:04.442 noxious experiment we are engaged in.[br]Thus, Mr. Baldwin can write his 0:42:04.442,0:42:10.019 book "The Fire Next Time," in which[br]he threatens America. He didn't 0:42:10.019,0:42:13.923 in writing that book speak with a[br]British accent that he used 0:42:13.923,0:42:17.700 exclusively tonight, in which he [br]threatened America with a 0:42:17.700,0:42:27.434 necessity for us to jettison...[br]for us to jettison our entire 0:42:27.434,0:42:32.791 civilization, the only thing that the[br]white man has that the negro should 0:42:32.791,0:42:37.435 want, he said, is power,[br]and he is treated 0:42:37.435,0:42:42.060 from coast to coast of the United[br]States with a kind of unctuous... 0:42:42.060,0:42:46.664 [Narrator speaking over him: inaudible] 0:42:46.664,0:42:49.850 ... that goes beyond anything that was[br]ever expected from the most 0:42:49.850,0:42:54.100 servile negro creature by a southern[br]family. I propose to pay him the honor 0:42:54.100,0:43:00.711 this night of saying to him, Mr. Baldwin,[br]I am going to speak to you without any 0:43:00.711,0:43:08.035 reference whatever to those surrounding[br]protections which you are used to 0:43:08.035,0:43:12.673 in virtue of the fact that you are a[br]negro. Here we need to ask the question, 0:43:12.673,0:43:17.132 what in fact shall we do about it,[br]Mr. President? What shall we in America 0:43:17.132,0:43:25.320 try to do? For instance, to eliminate [br]those psychic humiliations which I join 0:43:25.320,0:43:30.052 Mr. Baldwin in believing are the very[br]worst aspects of this discrimination. 0:43:30.052,0:43:35.344 You found it a source of considerable[br]mirth to laugh away the statistics 0:43:35.344,0:43:39.820 of my colleague, Mr. Burford. I don't [br]think they are insignificant. They 0:43:39.820,0:43:45.010 certainly are not insignificant in a world[br]which attaches a considerable importance 0:43:45.010,0:43:53.252 to material progress. It is in fact the case[br]that seven-tenths of the white income 0:43:53.252,0:43:57.359 of the United States is equal to the [br]income that is made by the average 0:43:57.359,0:44:02.865 negro. I don't think this is an irrelevant [br]statistic, ladies and gentleman. It takes 0:44:02.865,0:44:06.796 the capitalization of fifteen, sixteen,[br]seventeen thousand dollars per job in the 0:44:06.796,0:44:12.287 United States. This is capitalization that[br]was not created exclusively as a result 0:44:12.287,0:44:17.615 of negro travail. My great grandparents[br]worked too, presumably yours worked 0:44:17.615,0:44:21.113 also. I don't know of anything that has [br]ever been created without the expense 0:44:21.113,0:44:25.529 of something. All of you who hope for a[br]diploma here are going to do that at the 0:44:25.529,0:44:30.108 expense of a considerable amount of [br]effort. And I would thank you to please 0:44:30.108,0:44:35.130 not to belie the fact that a considerable[br]amount of effort went into the production 0:44:35.130,0:44:39.606 of a system which grants a greater degree[br]of material well-being to the American 0:44:39.606,0:44:44.129 negro, than that that is enjoyed[br]by 95% of the other peoples of the human 0:44:44.129,0:44:50.593 race. But even so, to the extent that [br]your withering laughter suggested here 0:44:50.593,0:44:56.249 that you found this a contemptible [br]observation, I agree. I don't think it 0:44:56.249,0:45:00.802 matters that there are 35 millionaires[br]among the negro community 0:45:00.802,0:45:04.277 if there were 35, if there were [br]20 million millionaires among 0:45:04.277,0:45:08.257 the negro community of the United States,[br]I would still agree with you that we 0:45:08.257,0:45:14.571 have a dastardly situation. But I am [br]asking you not to make politics as 0:45:14.571,0:45:20.094 the crow flies, to use the fleeted phrase [br]of Professor Oakshock, but rather to consider 0:45:20.094,0:45:24.957 what in fact is it that we Americans ought [br]to do? What are your instructions that 0:45:24.957,0:45:29.538 I am to take back to the United States[br]my friend? I want to know what it is 0:45:29.538,0:45:34.613 that we should do and especially, I want [br]to know whether it is time in fact 0:45:34.613,0:45:38.957 to abandon the American Dream as it [br]has been defined by Mr. Heycock and 0:45:38.957,0:45:44.009 Mr. Burford. What in fact is it we[br]ought to do, for instance, to avoid 0:45:44.009,0:45:52.316 due humiliations mentioned by Mr. Baldwin [br]as being a part of his own experience 0:45:52.316,0:45:57.680 during his lifetime. At the age of twelve,[br]you will find on reading his book, 0:45:57.680,0:46:04.293 he trespassed outside the ghetto of [br]Harlem and was taken by the scruff of the 0:46:04.293,0:46:08.787 neck by a policeman on 42nd Street,[br]Madison Avenue and said, "Here, 0:46:08.787,0:46:14.563 you nigger, go back to where you belong."[br]Fifteen, twenty years later he goes in 0:46:14.563,0:46:20.580 and asks for a scotch whiskey at the [br]airport at Chicago and is told by the 0:46:20.580,0:46:25.860 white woman that he is obviously underage[br]and under the circumstances, can't be 0:46:25.860,0:46:32.633 served. I know. I know from your faces [br]that you share with me the feeling of 0:46:32.633,0:46:38.245 compassion and the feeling of outrage[br]that this kind of thing should have 0:46:38.245,0:46:43.781 happened. What in fact are we going to [br]do to this policeman and what in fact are 0:46:43.781,0:46:52.128 we going to do to this barman? How are we [br]going to avoid the kind of humiliations 0:46:52.128,0:46:58.413 that are perpetually visited on members[br]of the minority race? Obviously, the first 0:46:58.413,0:47:03.952 element is concern. We've got to[br]care that it happens. We've got to 0:47:03.952,0:47:09.387 do what we can to change the warp[br]and woof of moral thought in society 0:47:09.387,0:47:15.260 in such fashion as to try to make it [br]happen less and less. Let me urge this 0:47:15.260,0:47:18.861 point to you, which I can do with [br]authority, my friends. The only thing that 0:47:18.861,0:47:24.660 I can tonight, and that is to tell you [br]that in the United States there is a 0:47:24.660,0:47:27.843 concern for the negro problem.[br]Now if you get up to me and 0:47:27.843,0:47:32.847 say--[laughter] 0:47:32.847,0:47:36.558 If you get up to me and say, [br]"Well, now is there the kind of 0:47:36.558,0:47:40.920 concern that we, students of Cambridge, [br]would show if the problem were our 0:47:40.920,0:47:46.205 own?" All I can say is, I don't know. [br]It may very well be that there has 0:47:46.205,0:47:51.592 been some sort of a sunburst of [br]moral enlightenment that has hit this 0:47:51.592,0:47:55.821 community so as to make it predictable [br]that if you were the 0:47:55.821,0:47:59.896 governors of the United States,[br]the situation would change overnight. 0:47:59.896,0:48:04.827 I am prepared to grant this as a [br]form of courtesy, Mr. President, but 0:48:04.827,0:48:10.651 meanwhile, I am saying to you that the [br]engines of concern in the United States 0:48:10.651,0:48:17.237 are working. The presence of Mr. Baldwin [br]here tonight is in part a reflection of 0:48:17.237,0:48:21.216 that concern. [audience member [br]yells out] You cannot go to a 0:48:21.216,0:48:25.411 university in the United States, a [br]university in the United States presumably 0:48:25.411,0:48:30.723 also governed by the lord spiritual as [br]you are, in which Mr. Baldwin is not the 0:48:30.723,0:48:36.023 toast of the town. You cannot go to a [br]university of the United States in which 0:48:36.023,0:48:43.336 practically all other problems of public policy[br]are preempted by the primary policy of concern 0:48:43.336,0:48:48.786 for the negro. I challenge you to name[br]another civilization any time 0:48:48.786,0:48:53.338 anywhere in the history of the world [br]in which the problems of the minority, 0:48:53.338,0:48:58.067 which have been showing considerable[br]material and political advancement is as 0:48:58.067,0:49:03.195 much a subject of dramatic concern as it [br]is in the United States, but let me just 0:49:03.195,0:49:12.010 say finally, ladies and gentlemen, this. [br]There is no instant cure for the race 0:49:12.010,0:49:16.593 problem in America and anybody[br]who tells you that there is 0:49:16.593,0:49:21.193 is a charlatan and[br]ultimately a boring man. 0:49:21.193,0:49:27.743 Boring precisely because he is then[br]speaking in the kind of abstractions that 0:49:27.743,0:49:33.430 do not relate to the human experience.[br]The trouble in America where the negro 0:49:33.430,0:49:38.706 community is concerned is a very[br]complicated one. I urge those of you 0:49:38.706,0:49:44.431 who have an actual rather than a [br]purely ideologized interest in the 0:49:44.431,0:49:50.514 problem to read the book "Beyond[br]the Melting Pot" by Professor Glazer, 0:49:50.514,0:49:56.830 also co-author of the "The Lonely Proud"[br]a prominent Jewish intellectual who 0:49:56.830,0:50:02.164 points at the fact that the situation in[br]America where the negros are concerned 0:50:02.164,0:50:08.619 is extremely complex as the result of an[br]unfortunate conjunction of two factors. 0:50:08.619,0:50:15.928 One is the dreadful efforts to perpetuate[br]discrimination by many individual American 0:50:15.928,0:50:21.910 citizens as a result of their lack of that[br]final and ultimate concern which some 0:50:21.910,0:50:27.317 people are truly trying to agitate, the other[br]is as a result of the failure of the negro 0:50:27.317,0:50:35.034 community itself to make certain exertions[br]which were made by other minority groups 0:50:35.034,0:50:40.434 during the American experience. If you can[br]stand a statistic not of my own making, 0:50:40.434,0:50:45.514 let me give you one which Professor [br]Glazer considers as relevant. He says 0:50:45.514,0:50:51.367 for instance, in 1900 there were[br]3,500 negro doctors in America. 0:50:51.367,0:50:57.200 In 1960, there were 3,900. An [br]increase in 400. Is this because 0:50:57.200,0:51:01.254 there were no opportunities, as has been [br]suggested by Mr. Heycock and also by 0:51:01.254,0:51:06.284 Mr. Baldwin implicitly. "No," says[br]Professor Glazer. There are a great many 0:51:06.284,0:51:11.876 medical schools who by no means practice [br]discrimination, who are anxious to recieve 0:51:11.876,0:51:15.734 the trained negro doctors. There are [br]scholarships available to put them 0:51:15.734,0:51:21.158 through, but in fact that particular [br]energy which he remarks was so noticeable 0:51:21.158,0:51:24.275 in the Jewish community and to a certain [br]and lesser extent in the Italian and 0:51:24.275,0:51:29.066 Irish community, for some reason is [br]not there. We should focus on the 0:51:29.066,0:51:34.154 necessity to animate this particular [br]energy, but he comes to the conclusion 0:51:34.154,0:51:38.606 which strikes me as plausible. The people [br]who can best do it most effectively 0:51:38.606,0:51:44.812 are negros themselves. Let me conclude[br]by reminding you, ladies and gentlemen 0:51:44.812,0:51:50.307 that where the negro is concerned,[br]the dangers, far as I can see at this 0:51:50.307,0:51:56.144 moment is that they will seek to[br]reach out for some sort of radical 0:51:56.144,0:52:01.797 solutions on the basis of which the true [br]problem is obscured. They have done a 0:52:01.797,0:52:08.589 great deal to focus on the fact of white [br]discrimination against negros. They have 0:52:08.589,0:52:14.214 done a great deal to agitate a moral [br]concern, but where in fact do they go 0:52:14.214,0:52:18.747 now? They seem to be slipping, if you read[br]carefully for instance the words of 0:52:18.747,0:52:25.274 Mr. Bayard Rustin, toward some sort of a [br]procrustean formulation which ends up 0:52:25.274,0:52:30.458 less urging the advancement of the negro[br]than the regression of the white people. 0:52:30.458,0:52:36.224 Fourteen times as many people in New[br]York City born of negros are illegitimate 0:52:36.224,0:52:40.854 as of whites. This is a problem. How[br]should we address it? By seeking out laws 0:52:40.854,0:52:45.514 that encourage illegitimacy in white [br]people? This unfortunately tends to be[br] 0:52:45.514,0:52:48.910 the rhetorical momentum that[br]some of the arguments are taking. 0:52:48.910,0:52:54.220 - One thing you might do Mr. Buckley is[br]let them vote in Mississippi. [applause] 0:52:54.220,0:52:55.644 Buckley: I agree. 0:52:59.664,0:53:06.874 I couldn't agree with you more[br]and for... except, lest I appear too 0:53:06.874,0:53:12.452 ingratiating which is hardly my objective[br]here tonight. I think actually what is 0:53:12.452,0:53:16.110 wrong in Mississippi, sir, is not that not[br]enough negros are voting but that 0:53:16.110,0:53:18.659 too many white people are voting. 0:53:18.659,0:53:21.443 [laughter] 0:53:25.661,0:53:32.726 Booker T. Washington said, "That the[br]important thing where negros are 0:53:32.726,0:53:37.989 concerned is not that they hold[br]public office, but they be prepared 0:53:37.989,0:53:42.017 to hold public office. Not that they vote,[br]but that they be prepared to vote." 0:53:42.017,0:53:45.348 What are we going to do with the[br]negros having taught the negros 0:53:45.348,0:53:49.929 in Mississippi to despise Barnett, [br]Ross Barnett, shall we then teach 0:53:49.929,0:53:53.720 them to emulate their cousins [br]in Harlem and adore Adam 0:53:53.720,0:53:58.538 Clayton Powell Jr.? It is much more[br]complicated, sir, than simply the 0:53:58.538,0:54:02.829 question of giving them the vote.[br]If I were myself a constituent of the 0:54:02.829,0:54:06.810 community of Mississippi at this moment,[br]what I would do is vote to lift the 0:54:06.810,0:54:12.124 standards of the vote so as to[br]disqualify 65% of the white people who 0:54:12.124,0:54:14.444 are presently voting, not simply... 0:54:14.444,0:54:16.995 [applause] 0:54:19.784,0:54:21.933 I say, then, that what we need 0:54:21.933,0:54:26.373 is a considerable amount[br]of frankness that acknowledges 0:54:26.373,0:54:31.624 that there are two sets of difficulties, [br]the difficulties of the white person who 0:54:31.624,0:54:38.122 acts as white people and brown people[br]and black people do all over the world to 0:54:38.122,0:54:42.709 protect their own vested interests, who[br]have as all the races in the entire world 0:54:42.709,0:54:50.349 have and suffer from a kind of racial [br]narcissism which tends always to 0:54:50.349,0:54:54.529 convert every contingency in such a way[br]as to maximize their own power. 0:54:54.529,0:54:57.400 That, yes, we must do,[br]but we must also 0:54:57.400,0:55:00.620 reach through to[br]the negro people and tell them 0:55:00.620,0:55:05.982 that their best chances are in a mobile [br]society and the most mobile society 0:55:05.982,0:55:11.048 in the world today, my friends, is the [br]United States of America. The most 0:55:11.048,0:55:14.717 mobile society in the world is the [br]United States of America, and it is [br] 0:55:14.717,0:55:19.817 precisely that mobility which will give[br]opportunities to the negros which 0:55:19.817,0:55:24.778 they must be encouraged to take, but[br]they must not in the course of their 0:55:24.778,0:55:32.235 ordeal be encouraged to adopt the kind[br]of cynicism, the kind of despair, the kind 0:55:32.235,0:55:38.266 of iconoclasm that is urged upon them[br]by Mr. Baldwin in his recent works because 0:55:38.266,0:55:44.516 one thing I can tell you, I believe with [br]absolute authority, that where the 0:55:44.516,0:55:50.654 United States is concerned, if it ever[br]becomes a confrontation between a 0:55:50.654,0:55:58.814 continuation of our own sort of idealism,[br]the private stock of which, granted like 0:55:58.814,0:56:02.285 most people in the world, we tend to [br]lavish only every now and then on 0:56:02.285,0:56:06.694 public enterprises, reserving it so often[br]for our own irritations and pleasures, 0:56:06.694,0:56:13.761 but the fundamental friend of the negro[br]people in the United States is the good 0:56:13.761,0:56:20.342 nature and is the generosity and is the[br]good wishes, is the decency, the 0:56:20.342,0:56:25.768 fundamental decency that do lie at the [br]reserves of the spirit of the American 0:56:25.768,0:56:31.246 people. These must not be laughed at [br]and under no circumstances must they 0:56:31.246,0:56:36.723 be laughed at and under no circumstances[br]must America be addressed and told that 0:56:36.723,0:56:42.090 the only alternative to the status [br]quo is to overthrow that civilization 0:56:42.090,0:56:47.074 which we consider to be the faith[br]of our fathers, the faith indeed of 0:56:47.074,0:56:52.435 your fathers. This is what must[br]animate whatever meliorism must 0:56:52.435,0:56:58.316 come because if it does finally come to [br]a confrontation, a radical confrontation, 0:56:58.316,0:57:02.991 between giving up what we understand[br]to be the best features of the American 0:57:02.991,0:57:06.975 way of life, which at that level is [br]indistinguishable so far as I can see 0:57:06.975,0:57:11.324 from the European way of life, then[br]we will fight the issue and we will 0:57:11.324,0:57:15.561 fight the issue not only in the Cambridge[br]Union, but we will fight it as you were 0:57:15.561,0:57:19.882 once recently called to do on beaches[br]and on hills and on mountains and 0:57:19.882,0:57:24.665 on landing grounds and we will be [br]convinced that just as you won the 0:57:24.665,0:57:31.132 war against a particular threat to[br]civilization, you were nevertheless 0:57:31.132,0:57:36.186 waging a war in favor of and for [br]the benefit of Germans, your own 0:57:36.186,0:57:40.549 enemies, just as we are convinced that if [br]it should ever come to that kind of a 0:57:40.549,0:57:44.886 confrontation, our own determination [br]to win the struggle will be a 0:57:44.886,0:57:49.314 determination to wage a war not only for [br]whites but also for negros. 0:57:49.314,0:57:53.532 [long applause] 0:58:20.893,0:58:25.511 President: Will the tellers take [br]their places please? They voted 0:58:25.511,0:58:29.065 in favor of the motion, the motion being[br]that the American Dream is at the expense 0:58:29.065,0:58:33.009 of the negro, they voted in favor[br]of that motion 544 persons 0:58:33.009,0:58:36.452 and against, 164 persons.[br]The motion is 0:58:36.452,0:58:39.554 therefore carried by 380 votes,[br]I declare the house 0:58:39.554,0:58:43.944 to stand adjourned. [applause]