Diversity_and_Inclusion_BoF.webm

Recent initiative that has recently been
getting more and more important.

And we're not just talking about inclusion
due to gender, we want to talk about

sexual identity, gender identity,
invisible illness, disabilities, race,

creed, colour, whatever kind of colour you
might wear in your underpants - whatever.

So, I don’t want to run this as a lecture,
I want this to be a workshop.

I'm only here as a facilitator; I want you
people to get involved

that's why all the ambient microphones
here in the lecture theatre are on

but only for this session.

That means I don’t have to keep
passing the microphone around.

As most of you are probably aware -
I’m going to kick off with myself

and why it's so important for me -

as you’re well aware I’m a trans woman,
which is something the recent Trump

election has made me very very
scared about. I’m also bisexual.

I also have two invisible illnesses:
I’m a manic depressive and I suffer

from gout and arthritis.

So I tick many of the boxes that diversity
and inclusion are all about.

So this is why it’s important to me,
and I want you guys - anyone else want

to kick off and say what diversity and
inclusion means to them and what can

we as Debian do more to raise its
visibility, how to catch when it's

contravened, maybe possibly review our
diversity statement (though I think it's

pretty good as it is at the moment). So
does anyone else want to say anything

after I’ve finished my wurbling?
Go ahead guys it’s up to you - this is for

everyone to be involved

Well it’s interesting because Debian
as a whole if you look across the last

20 odd years is one of the most diverse
entities I can think of at this scale

and, you know, we have people of all
beliefs and none,

we have mostly men and too few women

we have very few physically disabled folk

we have very few visually impaired folk

relative to the numbers of Debian
developers Debian maintainers.

But actually we are a good diverse
community even if sometimes

we don't sound like it. We’re a lot
better than some of the main stream.

Oh I completely agree with you. I mean
last year was my first year at the mini

deb conf since I transitioned full time
and I was just amazed at how accepting

everybody was it was just fantastic and
it just was a non-issue and I blogged

about this on Plant Debian later.
But yeah, I agree we are more diverse

than the average but I still think
there's more we can do and

possibly I’d like to see more
pro-activism about it rather than

just passive acceptance if you see what I
mean.

Anybody else?

So a lot of people here will know me and
this is going to sound a bit odd

but I think Debian is doing very
badly at being inclusive to

people who don't like fighting

[audience laughter]

[audience] Thank you Ian

[audience] That's a fair point

And I'm very conscious of this
and I try very hard

to encourage and help those people.
And because I'm rather thick skinned

and being a bit older I don't care
so much what people think

I'm more able to fight than other people
are. But I'm still having to fight too

much. I'm having to fight too much
not so much for myself

but for other people that I think
are getting a raw deal.

And I don't really know what to do about
that.

You're entirely right

There is an adversarial approach

understanding your corner is how you
argue something forwards

and that same approach is what, as
you quite rightly say, puts a lot of

people off as they don't want to
fight because you may not have

enough confidence to your own
ability to stand your corner.

But the reason people are doing this
is purely because if you don't shout

if you don't push your own agenda
nothing will happen.

And we end up with the status quo.

So, how do we get other people involved?

How do we get the adversarial
approach out of this?

And I think this is covering the whole
diversity bit Lucy is talking about

is unless people are brave enough to
stand up and say this is an issue for me

nobody is going to pay any attention.

And part of the problem is you've got to
stand up and say this is an issue for me.

Where do we go?

So, I'm speaking from a position
of privilege.

So please tell me if what I'm about
to say you think is wrong.

You said that it would be a
good thing to take the

adversarial approach out of Debian

There’s a degree to which I’m not sure
that’s necessarily the best approach.

The scientific method, the Socratic
method the sort of actually

having debate to discuss what
the best solutions are

I think there is virtue in that. I think
there's and element to which you need

to argue your corner. But at the same
time what you're saying is that you're

having to fight too much. Certainly
conflicts can become personal

and they can become deeply adversarial
which is not necessarily good.

I think the ideal is one where you can
continue to engage in the Socratic

and the scientific method but
may do so in a place where

it is safe to be wrong.

Lars you wanted to say something?

Yes, I was going to basically say what he
said but stressing the fact that there is

a difference between a debate
and a flame war.

Yes and recognising that is the point
where it is becoming personal

is the point we've got to all stop.

In fact recognising it's about to become
personal is the point we've got to stop.

I'm just going to throw out an idea here
that may be completely bonkers

or not really that acceptable
but is it possibly an idea to have

some kind of Debian appointed/
official personality moderators?

So basically if something seems to be
going out of line they will take to

personal messaging someone saying
can you cool it down a bit.

[audience] A speaker of the house or
referee?

More something/one that people
who don’t feel they can for themselves

can go to or if they see in a discussion
that something’s going out of order

they can take the people aside and
say look calm down guys.

I mean it’s just an idea and those
people are publicised in some way

on the wiki or whatever.
Sorry Andy?

So hire some psychologist to monitor
our mailing list? [audience laughter]

It's interesting in fact because I've
spent 20 years plus on mailing lists.

I've seen flame wars in Debian like you
wouldn't believe. [audience laughter]

But, I think we're getting better.
And surprisingly I think we're

getting better because we're getting
used to operating at a distance

via the impersonal medium of
messaging and messages.

I think it's a thing you have to get used
to but when it becomes personal

then it becomes very difficult.
I suppose the only thing I

would like people to think and
try and remember is that

respect goes upwards, downwards, sideways.

And that sort of of respect across the
project works better.

I don't think we're doing well on diversity at all.
[audience]: I agree

I think Debian is extremely straight white
male working men's club community.

And if I look at my employers as well
in my team we're all white male.

And that's a team of 15 people,
that's not diverse.

Yeah, and unfortunately it's a problem
across the entire industry. [audience]:yes

One of the reasons I've been pushing
this recently is that I've been getting

involved in our own internal
ARM diversity and inclusion.

And in fact I was in a video they did
recently for Ada Lovelace day.

It's the fact that we're
not retaining women

the fact that a lot of people who feel
safe to be out in some other way

is limited and we're trying
to improve on this and

I'm just seeing this as an extension
of this, personally if I'm doing it in

one part of my life I want to
do it in other parts of my life.

That's why I wanted to launch this BoF.

But yes I agree I don't believe we are
representative we tend to be more

accepting but our inclusion's pretty
good but our diversity is pretty poor.

People agree with that?
[audience]: yes

Steve

We keep on saying we have a diversity
statement we want to support diverse

people, absolutely, we're better than
we used to be but we're still crap.

I mean I remember 15 years ago
having discussions like this when

we had 3 whole female developers.

I don't know how many we have now.
[audience]: well more than that

If it's more than 20 or 30 I'd be
amazed. [audience]: Active?

It's certainly not many but in new
members, at least, we don't track it.

Precisely because it shouldn't be.

On a related note: when 2 Debian
Developers have children do they

become DDs automatically?
[audience]: laughter

So actually related to that, just looking
round the room one of the metrics

where we're not being very inclusive
is getting young people in.

Particularly if it's an adversarial
relationship and you have to argue

your case. If you're 16 years old then
that might be an unattractive place to be

Something to help support people and
get up to speed would be wonderful.

Well I have experience trying to get
someone of that age to a technical

related conference. At that age people
are so self conscious that even if

you are extremely supportive they
won't go.

So I don't think that's
necessarily a fixable problem.

I'm trying to solve that problem.
My daughter has come to a couple

of Deb Confs she's not at that age yet
and will be later.

The approach is bring her earlier.
She'll be here tomorrow.

One problem I see is that I don't think
we should be openly pro-active about it

like making a big deal out of it.
What I see is that when something

bad happens like a woman is
stalked by a man or

someone has a problem with your sexuality
then as a bystander what can I do

to make this better? Because if
I see something I don't know

what I should do to diffuse the
situation to make the one that is

stalking or making bad comments

[audience]: you should use your male white
privilege to call out bigotry

Yes
[audience]: And stand up for other people

Ok [audience]: should there be an
escalation process when that doesn't work?

No, it's de-escalation process.
You're not accusing people.

[audience]: But the point is when
it doesn't work.

When it doesn't work, right, ok.
[audience] When it continues potentially

the same offender in one case or many
cases. Is there a way that this is able to

be taken further by a group
in Debian that can potentially

deal with that individual or group?
Lars?

So I see again a duality, people who
need to be taught or need to learn

to not be jerks. [audience laughter]
But most people are happy to not

be jerks if they're shown how not to.
But there is a small group of people

who need to be kicked out. Yesterday in
the evening, late in the evening, on the

Debian women channel mikeyUSA (?? 13:47) came
back. [audience]: Oh oh, oh no

He was very happy of the US presidential
(election result).

But like, I don't know, personally I
block people on Facebook.

I have 35 people blocked on Facebook.
Because I just don't want to.

And then my life became happier online
[Laugh]

[audience]: That works on a personal
level but having an irc channel

frequented by (?? 14:13) views of hate and
indifference (?? 14:18)

needs to be corrected on a project level.

One thing that's been suggested before
but never really actually happened

is a lot of Debian's discussions
take place on mailing lists

that are not only publicly viewable
they are totally un-moderated.

And this is good in one sense it helps
keep the wider community involved

but it also means that there
are people who get involved

on those mailing lists who I do
not believe are in any reasonable

sense part of the Debian project
and are not communicating with it.

And who come along pretty much I
think purely to stir up arguments.

How much of the system-d (?? 15:08) flame war [laugh]
was people who were actively involved

in the project? And how much of it was?
Do we need somewhere the project can

discuss things that can't just be posted
to be any random troll on the internet?

Well, in Ubuntu Ubuntu Devel was
split into Ubuntu Devel for members only

and it's basic access rights and then
discuss for general public.

The net result was that yes the flame wars
disappeared, however the community

contracted a lot as well. And that turned
a whole bunch of people so much that

the traffic just became dead.

[audience]: It may also result in just
all flame wars just moving from one

mailing list to a different mailing list
and staying

Right, initially that's what happened.
But then loads of people unsubscribed

And then people disappeared,
over a longer time.

[audience]: Can I ask a question
about this experiment in Ubuntu?

What was the situation if you were a
non-Ubuntu developer/person and you

mailed that mailing list? Would
somebody moderate it?

It goes to moderation queue and
then Colin Watson, every other fortnight,

He would approve a whole bunch
of messages if they were fine.

[audience]: And would you get
white-listed eventually?

And yes, if you post enough
you get white-listed by Colin.

But it all falls back to Colin
or something like that.

[audience] That's a lot of overhead
for a team that already can't

keep up in our case.

[audience]: It also slows down the
discussion a lot.

[Facilitator]: And to be honest these are
all reactive containing measures.

[audience]: yeah, we shouldn't have
this problem in the first place.

But the problem is that the world has
crappy people in it and if we set up

a thing that is attractive to those
crappy people where they can do

their crappy things then
they will come and do it.

And you can say well that's bad, but you
know if you have a solution for dealing

with that for the whole world then [laugh]

[audience]: You can't fight social
problems with technical measures.

[audience]: They can help

That's completely false, for example
Debian bug tracker (??172:7) should stop

unsubscribing me because I use Gmail.
But that's unrelated to the topic.

I was thinking about one thing to have a
discussion in a more (?? 17:42) environment

I think more of them are via wiki as you
don't have the personality that's put

forward so much, you can edit if there
is anything too offensive. You still have

the history so it's not lost the thing
that's displayed there if it hasn't been

edited for let's say a day it's probably
the (?? 17:58)

this is not bad and if you edit you
explicitly, it's visible to everybody

that it was considered (??18:04) not bad and then
after when you have the discussion

you can have section about argument
and people they answer just below

And then you don't keep repeating
yourself about what you said.

You answer some question and somebody
asks again the same thing you have

everything there. If it's not there you
add it. I don't think you can do

everything this way but when you have an
idea in open discussion it's not going

to work. But when you have an idea you
try to reach consensus for something

maybe using a wiki could be quite useful.
Something which is not conversation based

but you know just shared
[audience]: content based

[audience]: In Wikipedia they have long
discussions about things and it's quite

often you can have sections often that
these don't help to create some concerns.

Even the same arguments are repeated
over and over again.

So it doesn't really help, in my opinion.
Facilitator: Andy

It strikes me we're all in agreement
that we shouldn't be tolerating anything

we should be and we're saying
who's going to moderate it.

The simple answer is every single
person has to moderate it.

There and then, at the point you see
something you've got to call it out.

We've got to stop being rocks
and being passive ourselves.

And until that happens we're not
going to create an environment

where people feel safe to state their
opinion and beliefs and their identities.

Because of fear that their going to be
called out in some way.

And so we've got to, you now if I'm out
of order stop me now don't wait a week

and bitch that Andy's being a bit of a
dick out there and have a moan.

At the point I start to be a dick stop me.
[audience laughter]

And that should apply to
every single person.

Facilitator: Again we're talking about
reactive. What can we do to be more

proactive and get more people involved?

I just wanted to say that I've ended up
in a couple of Debian devel discussions

and on the front page of happy news and
slash dot and the Debian devel discussion

was going on there was lots of personal
attacks and it was Ian Jackson stepped in

and a couple of other developers
stepped in and they defended me.

And it was because I'd seen that there
were people that were going

"no what are you doing, this
is wrong don't do this"

I knew that that wasn't the
overall view of the community.

And just seeing something happening
made everything a lot better.

Facilitator: This is going back to the
concept I was talking about about the

personality moderators. And as I say
sometimes you may be wanting to say

something but you don't feel you can.
And because it's a silent thing people

aren't going to know that you did want to
something which is why you need people

you can approach and say this
is what I want to say, this is why

I don't feel I can say it.

So, how can I try to be proactive with
diversity? I think that's one of the..

we're all in agreement that we should be
more diverse, what can we do to fix that?

In Debian we have an outreach team
which runs / participates in internship

programmes: Google Summer of Code,
Outreachy. That are programmes that try

to involve new people in our community.

We are struggling with finding good
projects and good mentors to guide

those interns in the project.

We're also trying to do diversity
bursaries for DebConf so bringing

new people into those conferences.

We need, I guess, help to do that.
[audience]: Where do we sign up?

[audience]: Where do we sign up to help?
[audience laughter]

So, there is a Debian outreach mailing
list where we send announcements

about programmes. We can talk and add
more people to the outreach ideas.

And if you have ideas about what we can,
what we should do, then you can speak up.

Facilitator: What's the first port of call
for any new person for the Debian Project?

[audience] There is a welcome
team, I'm not part of it

No, I mean when someone says here's
Debian I want to find out about it.

Where's the first place they go?
[audience]: Front page

Facilitator: Yes. We need something linked
off the front page. There's nothing on or

linked from the front page that indicates
our diversity because I had difficulty

finding our diversity page a couple of
days ago in preparation for this BoF.

[audience]: good point
Facilitator: Some of the information is

there but it's not immediately visible.
It's silent and that's where we need

to increase our visibility and say look
we are inclusive of these things

come and join us.

[audience]: I don't know, I always view
Debian as a social project rather than

a technical one.
Facilitator: It's a mixture of both

[audience]: How is that relevant?

Because our front page is all about
how to download the ISO (?? 23:45)

[audience]: So debian.org, in your
opinion, is directly technical

rather than social? Yes.
[audience]: And it should be both

[audience]: So we need to fix that

[audience]: That's quite a sweeping
assessment. [laughter]

I'm exaggerating. [audience]: There is
some people stuff on there as well

but it's smaller than all the rest.
There should be something there.

There is, the text is like this big
[very small].

There's a number of bugs open on
www.debian.org and the problems

that I think we have and we talked
about in Vienna if you wanted to

get started with packaging you have
no hope. [laughter] You have literally

no hope. We tried to organise the wiki
pages and there was no easy way to

get started. So I think we are closed to
new people unless you already know

someone who can help you get started.
The downloading of ISOs (?? 24:49) is entirely

done badly and Steve has a bug on that.
And the blends (?? 24:55) pages were all listed

under the developers section even though
that was user documentation.

So I moved those out. But there is a lot
of work to be done on the website and

I think the first step for that is filing
bugs with ideas of how to reorganise

this and there really does need to be a
project for that.

[audience]: does anybody here even look at
the front page or use it for anything?

Because I go to tracker.debian.org,
that's the only URL I go to

[audience]: I can never remember the
categorisation of the URL so I have to

not URL hack, because I always end
up at some 404. So I have to go via

the front page and its maddening.
[Laughter]

Speaking of packaging I remember (?? 25.38)
back in the days when I didn't know

basically I needed help with how the dev
packages were made up, what's inside it,

but I didn't know how to create the ones
except create Debian capital directory

and package into it. [audience laughter]
I remember that I learned how to do that

not through debian.org but I knew
someone who knew how to create

Debian packages using dev helper and they
gave me, like, a long Debian roll script

100 lines of something and I started
hacking on that and just trying things out

but these days it's slightly better but I
still don't know what page to point

people at. Probably something on the
wiki but no idea actually.

[audience]: is it slightly better or are
you just more familiar with what needs

to be done?
When I try to find a specification

of multiarch it's on the wiki.
[audience]: That's the Canonical location.

I tried to learn how to use dev triggers
last week. I later learned that I don't

actually need triggers for that package
I can do it differently, I didn't use

triggers in the end. But, I actually went
to an internal Collabora wiki/resource

an internal source that used triggers.
[audience]: Can I interrupt you here a

moment and say we seem to be
getting derailed into a discussion of

of our technical deficiencies with our
technical documentation and I'm

sure that all of us are aware of
deficiencies in our technical

documentation. And I'm not sure that
as part of an outreach effort is quite

the right framing for that.
[audience]: it's one of many things

we need to improve but the very very
first thing people see, as Lucy said, is

way below par.
[audience]: But this, I think, actually

quite a good point because we are getting
lost ourselves and getting sidetracked

of the issue of how do we pro-actively
encourage diversity. And we seem as a

group to be spiraling down the technocracy
again. We seem to be fixated on the

technical and how do we break that
fixation.

[audience]: Well we're technical people
[laughter]

[audience]: so how do we get people who
are not technical.

[audience]: I'm going to say something
very controversial here and so be aware

there's somebody at the back of the room
you can throw things at. [Laughter]

I'm physically disabled I'm also what you
might call neuro-diverse. If I'm feeling

bloody minded I just say I'm brain
damaged. There are a lot of people

around me in Debian and also elsewhere
who are on the autistic spectrum somewhere

who are technical types. We all tend to be
focused, technical, dealing with technical

stuff is sometimes a lot easier than
dealing with people.

We are the wrong people to be trying
to pull people in and in fact

my other half was here last year, she sat
in the kitchen and she said "god imagine

if you went to central casting and
asked for geeks this is what you'd get"

I don't know that we are good at or going
to be able to get more diverse people in.

But what we are good at is other aspects
of diversity. We are good at allowing

people to be themselves in terms of
gender, sexuality, sexual expression

and that kind of stuff. Which other
parts of the world generally aren't

I mean it's not for nothing that we had a
presentation last year on BDSM and Debian

from Enrico.
[audience laughter]

Facilitator: Well I wonder if we can
learn something from one of the other

major geek communities which is the
sci-fi / fantasy fandom which have a very

wide diversity and have no problems
attracting people. I mean the fact we're

geeks should preclude us from being
able to be social. [audience]: I agree

[audience]: I mean Debian does attract
weird people and I once said that by

definition to become a DD being weird
is a requirement. [audience laughter]

But why stop there. We can do more.

[audience]: What include normal people?
[audience laughter]

[audience]: Steady on. Lets not go there
[audience]: How do you define normal again?

[audience]:Standing up straight

[audience]: one thing, I've just been
clicking around on the Debian website

and basically there's only one image there
and that's the Debian logo

[audience]: That's on purpose
I don't say make it like Wouter's (?? 31:03) website

But there is some room I think for more,
it doesn't have to be stock photo.

[audience]: Well on the Ubuntu website
we have a lot of group photos from

conferences.
[audience]: Could we put a picture from

DebConf. We are people like Debian
[audience]: It's very impersonal though

and of course it's nice for big building
times.

Facilitator: What about a few selected
biographies with pictures and people

saying what Debian means to them
and getting as a wide a selection of

people as possible?
[audience]: How about 'We are Debian' and

literally small bits and pieces. You've
seen quite a lot of the advertising

campaigns the bios don't necessarily
need to put stuff behind but a photo,

random photo of every DD if they're
happy to have it on the front page.

Picked at random photo show the
diversity we've got so yes we're possibly

going to need to positively bias this.
But show the diversity and by showing

what little diversity we've got but
stressing it more frequently we're making

a safe, safe is the wrong word, a place
where people are comfortable to be

themselves. [audience]: welcoming?
Yes, welcoming.

And put that front and centre.
Ultimately I would hope that

most of us in this room would say
that we try to leave our prejudice

at the door. I think most of us are
happy to recognise that we have

prejudice and have it called out on us
when we cross a line.

And unless everybody else is prepared
to do the same to us then we can't be

welcoming to anybody else because
we're not creating an environment

where other people feel happy and
safe in the first place.

[Facilitator]: And of course a lot of bias
is unconscious.

[audience]: Very much unconscious and
that's what we've got to overcome

so we've got to actively overcome it.

Would anybody here genuinely be upset
if we put their photos on the front page?

[audience]: see also collabora.com
[audience]: well quite. Modulo (??33.39) scaring

people away with my ugly face [audience
laughter] but I've been doing that for

years and it doesn't seem to have
had a major problem.

[Facilitator]: David
Sorry I need to get my thoughts back

So you were saying something along
the lines of unconscious biases and

wanting to see that corrected. I have
certainly discovered that I've been

exhibiting this myself in the past and
people have told me that this was a

thing and I've gone 'oh my god I'm so
sorry'. Being able to do that in a public

forum and to be able to be able to
set a good example as to what good

behaviour looks like I think might also
have some value. I think there're lots

of people who are trying to do this
already. I don't know if there's

anything that could be
added there as well.

[audience]: meeting in real life really
does help.

[audience]: Massively
[audience]: Yes absolutely

[Facilitator]: Steve
So I've heard quite a number of good ideas

a lot of which are going to need some
technical work to make them happen.

There is a next obvious question:
Who want's to help?

[audience]: Lots of voices saying "Me"

[audience]: we should take a picture of
the DPL and put a face on the front page

with a quote, right, that's an action item
[audience]: It's a start

[audience]: and to say we are a social
project. Yes we have an operating system

but we have a social project as well.
[audience]: absolutely, we've already

suggested several improvements we
could make to our website and various

other things. A lot of the problems that
we have in those areas are not that

people don't agree with those ideas, it's
just finite effort. And we have a limited

number of people who've been able to
find the time to do what is already

necessary and what we
know is needed technically.

Again, we will need more help
to do this kind of thing.

[audience]: I would object to raising the
DPL as the one person to stick on the

front page. Please don't do that. Because
there are more people in Debian.

[audience]: And will never apply to be
DPL ever again. [audience]: yeah, yeah

[audience]: So if people want to help
with this and actually get involved

technically to do it, that doesn't mean
editing wml but it will mean writing

content. It will mean getting some
stuff done. We can go forward with that

we can make it happen. But it is
going to need some effort.

[audience]: I'll volunteer to write wml
if someone decides that needs writing

[audience]: Ditto, I will do that for
people if they need it.

[facilitator]: I'm happy to produce
content as you're probably well aware.

[audience]: There's nothing in the Social
Contract about diversity.

[Facilitator]: That's an interesting point

[audience]: There doesn't have to be.

[audience]: There isn't we did make, we
had a public vote, and we made a

diversity statement a few years ago.
We have made a very loud public statement

about the values of the project. In a
similar fashion to what we did with

the Social Contract. Do you think it
would help if there was something

about that in a modified Social Contract?

[audience]: Yes, because then it would be
obviously central.

[audience]: At least part of the
statement in the DFSG about not

discriminating in software against
anybody.

[audience]: Yeah, I'm not sure that that
would help given the rows there've been

over the Social Contract before.
In all seriousness we promote Debian

as the universal operating system.
We promote it as something for everybody.

Rather than putting it into our technical
documentation we're better to live it.

Put it on the website, explain it. Live
it in conferences like this.

I don't think we need to add it to every
piece of technical documentation

provided we can live the culture.
[audience]: Is the Social Contract a piece

of technical documentation? That's kind of
interesting.

[audience]: If you want to push that
you have my vote but I don't think

it's important.

[audience]: something that might help is
showing these things not modifying them

but showing them on the same page. The
DFSG is appended to the Social Contract.

Have the diversity statement there and
anything else that's relevant and

you can find them in one place.

[Facilitator]: Right we need to wrap
this up in the next few minutes.

So has anyone else got any points
they want to raise at this point?

[audience]: Please make sure that the
points that have been raised are in the

Gobby doc, we seem to have
run out of steam there.

[audience]: One last thing, sorry.
It comes into Social stuff

accessibility software, things like
Dasher, things like anything you need

to do when you're blind or you've only
got one arm or that kind of stuff

is at least as important in someways
as some of the other diversity stuff.

As otherwise we will be excluding groups.

[Facilitator]: yeah I think that's quite valid.

[audience] I think that needs to be
considered if we make any changes to

the website. Because at the moment it's
lovely for screen readers. And don't take

that away. If we make the website all
HTML5, JavaScript, CSS, Flash nonsense

we're going to screw screen readers.
[audience]: no we can improve the website

whilst retaining it's current
standard for accessibility.

Because the standard of accessibility
for the Debian website is better

better than everything else
out there. It's amazing.

So there are constraints on what
we can do, that's well known.

Is Debian a universal operating system
or is it a global social project?

An experiment?
[audience]: Yes, both.

[audience]: It does not state that.

[audience]: So the first thing people
look at is here's a load of technical

stuff about Debian. We have this many
packages, here's how to download.

There is nothing to say Debian is also
a big diverse project you could join in.

[audience]: It's a social project.
[audience]: Definitely

[Facilitator]: Any other different
opinions or things to raise before

we run out of time? I think
we've done this bit to death now.

[audience]: Maybe one question with
diversity. Do we want to reach or express

that we are diverse to our users or our
developers. Is there a priority between

the 2? I think it would go from user
to developer.

[Facilitator]: Well it's a bit blurred
anyway.

[audience]: If we're a social project
then everybody's included.

And that includes the users,
the developers because that's

the point of a social group.
It's a big huge social group.

It's a social network:
I run Debian [laugh].

[Facilitator]: Right I think
we can wrap it up there.

Thank you very very much
all of you for taking part.

[audience]: Thank you for
pushing this as well.

[Facilitator]: Thank you
[audience]: Applause.