Diversity_and_Inclusion_BoF.webm

Recent initiative that has recently been
getting more and more important

And we're not just talking about inclusion
due to gender, we want to talk about

sexual identity, gender identity,
invisible illness, disabilities,

race, creed, colour, whatever kind of
colour you might wear in your underpants

whatever. So, I don’t want to run this
lecture I want this to be a workshop I'm

only here as a facilitator I want you
people to get involved that's why all the

ambient microphones here in the lecture
theatre are on but only for this session.

Ok. That means I don’t have to keep
passing the microphone around. As most

of you are probably aware I’m going to
kick off with myself and why it's so

important for me. As you’re very aware
I’m a trans woman which is something

the recent Trump election has made me
very very scared about. I’m also bisexual,

also have two invisible illnesses I’m a
manic depressive and I suffer from gout

and arthritis. So I tick many of the
boxes that diversity and inclusion are all

about. So this is why it’s important to
me and I want you guys, anyone else want

to kick off and say what diversity and
inclusion means to them and what can

we as Debian do more about it to raise
it’s visibility how to catch when it’s

contravened maybe possibly review our
diversity statement though I think it's

pretty good as it is at the moment. So
does anyone else want to say anything

after I’ve finished my wurbling. Go
ahead guys it’s up to you this is for

everyone to be involved

Well it’s interesting because Debian
as a whole if you look across the last

20 odd years is one of the most diverse
entities I can think of at this scale

and, you know, we have people of all
beliefs and none,

we have mostly men and too few women

we have very few physically disabled folk

we have very few visually impaired folk

relative to the numbers of Debian
developers Debian maintainers.

But actually we are a good diverse
community even if sometimes

we don't sound like it. We’re a lot
better than some of the main stream.

Oh I completely agree with you. I mean
last year was my first year at the mini

deb conf since I transitioned full time
and I was just amazed at how accepting

everybody was it was just fantastic and
it just was a non-issue and I blogged

about this on Plant Debian later.
But yeah, I agree we are more diverse

than the average but I still think
there's more we can do and

possibly I’d like to see more
pro-activism about it rather than

just passive acceptance if you see what I
mean.

Anybody else?

So a lot of people here will know me and
this is going to sound a bit odd

but I think Debian is doing very
badly at being inclusive to

people who don't like fighting
[audience laughter]

[audience] Thank you Ian

[audience] That's a fair point

And I'm very conscious of this
and I try very hard

to encourage and help those people.
And because I'm rather thick skinned

and, you know, being a bit older I
don't care so much what people think

I'm more able to fight than other people
are. But I'm still having to fight too

much. I'm having to fight too much
not so much for myself

but for other people that I think, you
know, are getting a raw deal.

And I don't really know what to do about
that.

You're entirely right

There is an adversarial approach

understanding your corner is how you
argue something forwards

and that same approach is what, as
you quite rightly say, puts a lot of

people off as they don't want to
fight because you don't have

enough confidence to your own
ability to stand your corner.

But the reason people are doing this
is purely because if you don't shout

if you don't push your own agenda
nothing will happen

and we end up with the status quo.

So, how do we get other people involved?

How do we get the adversarial
approach out of it?

And I think this is covering the whole
diversity bit Lucy is talking about

is unless people are brave enough to
stand up and say this is an issue for me

nobody is going to pay any attention

and part of the problem is you have to
stand up and say this is an issue for me.

Where do we go?

So, I'm speaking from a position
of privilege.

So please tell me if what I'm about
to say you think is wrong.

You said that it would be a
good thing to take the

adversarial approach out of Debian

There’s a degree to which I’m not sure
that’s necessarily the best approach.

The scientific method, the Socratic
method the sort of like actually

having debate to discuss what
the best solutions are

I think there is virtue in that. I think
there's and element to which you need

to argue your corner. But at the same
time what you're saying is that you're

having to fight too much.

Certainly conflicts can become personal
and they can become deeply adversarial

which is not necessarily good. I think
the ideal is one where you can

continue to engage in the Socratic
and the scientific method

but may do so in a place where
it is safe to be wrong.

Lars you wanted to say something?

Yes, I was going to basically say what he
said but stressing the fact that there is

a difference between a debate
and a flame war.

Yes and recognising that is the point
where it is becoming personal

is the point we've got to all stop.

In fact recognising it's about to become
personal is the point we've got to stop.

I'm just going to throw out an idea here
that may be completely bonkers

or not really that acceptable
but is it possibly an idea to have

some kind of Debian appointed/
official personality moderators?

So basically if something seems to be
giong out of line they will take to

personal messaging someone saying
can you cool it down a bit.

[audience] A speaker of the house or
referee?

more something/one that a people
who don’t feel they can for themselves

can go to or if they see in a discussion
that something’s going out of order

they can take the people aside and
say look calm down guys.

I mean it’s just an idea and those
people are publicised in some way

on the wiki or whatever.
Sorry Andy?

So hire some psychologist to monitor
our mailing list? [audience laughter]

It's interesting in fact because I've
spent 20 years plus on mailing lists.

I've seen flame wars in Debian like you
wouldn't believe. [audience laughter]

But, I think we're getting better.
And surprisingly I think we're

getting better because we're getting
used to operating at a distance

via the impersonal medium of
messaging and messages.

I think it's a thing you have to get used
to but when it becomes personal

then it becomes very difficult.
I suppose the only thing I

would like people to think and
try and remember is that respect

goes upwards, downwards, sideways.

And that sort of of respect across the
project works better.

I don't think we're doing well on diversity at all.
[audience]: I agree

Debian is extremely straight white

male working man's club community.

And if I look at my employers as well
in my team we're all white male.

And that's a team of 15 people,
that's not diverse.

Yeah, and unfortunately it's a problem
across the entire industry. [audience]:yes

One of the reasons I've been pushing
this recently is that I've been getting

involved in our own internal
ARM diversity and inclusion.

And in fact I was in a video they did
recently for Ada Lovelace day.

It's the fact that we're
not retaining women

the fact that a lot of people who feel
safe to be out in some other way is

limited and we're trying to
improve on this and

I'm just seeing this as an extension
of this, personally if I'm doing it in

one part of my life I want to
do it in other parts of my life.

That's why I wanted to launch this BoF.

But yes I agree I don't believe we are
representative we tend to be more

accepting but our inclusion's pretty
good but our diversity is pretty poor.

People agree with that?
[audience]: yes