Diversity_and_Inclusion_BoF.webm

Recent initiative that has recently been
getting more and more important

And we're not just talking about inclusion
due to gender, we want to talk about

sexual identity, gender identity,
invisible illness, disabilities,

race, creed, colour, whatever kind of
colour you might wear in your underpants

whatever. So, I don’t want to run this
lecture I want this to be a workshop I'm

only here as a facilitator I want you
people to get involved that's why all the

ambient microphones here in the lecture
theatre are on but only for this session.

Ok. That means I don’t have to keep
passing the microphone around. As most

of you are probably aware I’m going to
kick off with myself and why it's so

important for me. As you’re very aware
I’m a trans woman which is something

the recent Trump election has made me
very very scared about. I’m also bisexual,

also have two invisible illnesses I’m a
manic depressive and I suffer from gout

and arthritis. So I tick many of the
boxes that diversity and inclusion are all

about. So this is why it’s important to
me and I want you guys, anyone else want

to kick off and say what diversity and
inclusion means to them and what can

we as Debian do more about it to raise
it’s visibility how to catch when it’s

contravened maybe possibly review our
diversity statement though I think it's

pretty good as it is at the moment. So
does anyone else want to say anything

after I’ve finished my wurbling. Go
ahead guys it’s up to you this is for

everyone to be involved

Well it’s interesting because Debian
as a whole if you look across the last

20 odd years is one of the most diverse
entities I can think of at this scale

and, you know, we have people of all
beliefs and none,

we have mostly men and too few women

we have very few physically disabled folk

we have very few visually impaired folk

relative to the numbers of Debian
developers Debian maintainers.

But actually we are a good diverse
community even if sometimes

we don't sound like it. We’re a lot
better than some of the main stream.

Oh I completely agree with you. I mean
last year was my first year at the mini

deb conf since I transitioned full time
and I was just amazed at how accepting

everybody was it was just fantastic and
it just was a non-issue and I blogged

about this on Plant Debian later.
But yeah, I agree we are more diverse

than the average but I still think
there's more we can do and

possibly I’d like to see more
pro-activism about it rather than

just passive acceptance if you see what I
mean.

Anybody else?

So a lot of people here will know me and
this is going to sound a bit odd

but I think Debian is doing very
badly at being inclusive to

people who don't like fighting
[audience laughter]

[audience] Thank you Ian

[audience] That's a fair point

And I'm very conscious of this
and I try very hard

to encourage and help those people.
And because I'm rather thick skinned

and, you know, being a bit older I
don't care so much what people think

I'm more able to fight than other people
are. But I'm still having to fight too

much. I'm having to fight too much
not so much for myself

but for other people that I think, you
know, are getting a raw deal.

And I don't really know what to do about
that.

You're entirely right

There is an adversarial approach

understanding your corner is how you
argue something forwards

and that same approach is what, as
you quite rightly say, puts a lot of

people off as they don't want to
fight because you don't have

enough confidence to your own
ability to stand your corner.

But the reason people are doing this
is purely because if you don't shout

if you don't push your own agenda
nothing will happen

and we end up with the status quo.

So, how do we get other people involved?

How do we get the adversarial
approach out of it?

And I think this is covering the whole
diversity bit Lucy is talking about

is unless people are brave enough to
stand up and say this is an issue for me

nobody is going to pay any attention

and part of the problem is you have to
stand up and say this is an issue for me.

Where do we go?

So, I'm speaking from a position
of privilege.

So please tell me if what I'm about
to say you think is wrong.

You said that it would be a
good thing to take the

adversarial approach out of Debian

There’s a degree to which I’m not sure
that’s necessarily the best approach.

The scientific method, the Socratic
method the sort of like actually

having debate to discuss what
the best solutions are

I think there is virtue in that. I think
there's and element to which you need

to argue your corner. But at the same
time what you're saying is that you're

having to fight too much.

Certainly conflicts can become personal
and they can become deeply adversarial

which is not necessarily good. I think
the ideal is one where you can

continue to engage in the Socratic
and the scientific method

but may do so in a place where
it is safe to be wrong.

Lars you wanted to say something?

Yes, I was going to basically say what he
said but stressing the fact that there is

a difference between a debate
and a flame war.

Yes and recognising that is the point
where it is becoming personal

is the point we've got to all stop.

In fact recognising it's about to become
personal is the point we've got to stop.

I'm just going to throw out an idea here
that may be completely bonkers

or not really that acceptable
but is it possibly an idea to have

some kind of Debian appointed/
official personality moderators?

So basically if something seems to be
giong out of line they will take to

personal messaging someone saying
can you cool it down a bit.

[audience] A speaker of the house or
referee?

more something/one that a people
who don’t feel they can for themselves

can go to or if they see in a discussion
that something’s going out of order

they can take the people aside and
say look calm down guys.

I mean it’s just an idea and those
people are publicised in some way

on the wiki or whatever.
Sorry Andy?

So hire some psychologist to monitor
our mailing list? [audience laughter]

It's interesting in fact because I've
spent 20 years plus on mailing lists.

I've seen flame wars in Debian like you
wouldn't believe. [audience laughter]

But, I think we're getting better.
And surprisingly I think we're

getting better because we're getting
used to operating at a distance

via the impersonal medium of
messaging and messages.

I think it's a thing you have to get used
to but when it becomes personal

then it becomes very difficult.
I suppose the only thing I

would like people to think and
try and remember is that respect

goes upwards, downwards, sideways.

And that sort of of respect across the
project works better.

I don't think we're doing well on diversity at all.
[audience]: I agree

Debian is extremely straight white

male working man's club community.

And if I look at my employers as well
in my team we're all white male.

And that's a team of 15 people,
that's not diverse.

Yeah, and unfortunately it's a problem
across the entire industry. [audience]:yes

One of the reasons I've been pushing
this recently is that I've been getting

involved in our own internal
ARM diversity and inclusion.

And in fact I was in a video they did
recently for Ada Lovelace day.

It's the fact that we're
not retaining women

the fact that a lot of people who feel
safe to be out in some other way is

limited and we're trying to
improve on this and

I'm just seeing this as an extension
of this, personally if I'm doing it in

one part of my life I want to
do it in other parts of my life.

That's why I wanted to launch this BoF.

But yes I agree I don't believe we are
representative we tend to be more

accepting but our inclusion's pretty
good but our diversity is pretty poor.

People agree with that?
[audience]: yes

Steve

We keep on saying we have a diversity
statement we want to support diverse

people, absolutely, we're better than
we used to be but we're still crap.

I mean I remember 15 years ago
having discussions like this when

we had 3 whole female developers.

I don't know how many we have now.
[audience]: well more than that

If it's more than 20 or 30 I'd be
amazed. [audience]: Active?

It's certainly not many but in new
members, at least, we don't track it.

Precisely because it shouldn't be.

On a related note: when 2 Debian
Developers have children do they

become DDs automatically?
[audience]: laughter

So actually related to that, just looking
round the room one of the metrics

where we're not being very inclusive
is getting young people in.

Particularly if it's an adversarial
relationship and you have to argue

your case. If you're 16 years old then
that might be and unattractive place to be

Something to help support people and
get up to speed would be wonderful.

Well I have experience trying to get
someone of that age to a technical

related conference. At that age [yes]
even if you are extremely supportive

They won't go so I don't think that's
necessarily a fixable problem.

I'm trying to solve that problem.
My daughter has come to a couple

of Deb Confs she's not at that age yet
and will be later.

The approach is bring her earlier.
She'll be here tomorrow.

One problem I see is that I don't think
we should be openly proactive about it

like making a big deal out of it.
What I see is that when something

bad happens like a woman is
stalked by a man or

someone has a problem with your sexuality
then as a bystander what can I do

to make this better? Because if
I see something I don't know

what I should do to diffuse the
situation to make the one that is

stalking or making bad comments

[audience]: you should use your male white
privilege to call out bigotry

Yes
[audience]: And stand up for other people

Ok [audience]: should there be an
escalation process when that doesn't work?

No, it's de-escalation process.
You're not accusing people.

[audience]: But the point is when
it doesn't work.

When it doesn't work, right, ok.
When it continues potentially

the same offender in one case or many
cases. Is there a way that this is able to

be taken further by a group
in Debian that can potentially

deal with that individual or group?
Lars?

So I see again a duality, people who
need to be taught or need to learn

to not be jerks. [audience laughter]
But most people are happy to not

be jerks if they're shown how not to.
But there is a small group of people

who need to be kicked out. Yesterday in
the evening, late in the evening, on the

Debian women channel mikeyUSA (?? 13:47) came
back. [audience]: Oh oh, oh no

He was very happy of the US presidential
(election result).

But like, I don't know, personally I
block people on Facebook.

I have like 35 people blocked on Facebook.
Because I just don't want to.

And then my life became happier online
[Laugh]

[audience]: That works on a personal
level but having an irc channel

frequentedby [muffled] views of hate and
indifference (?? 14:18)

needs to be corrected on a project level.

one things that's been suggested before
but never really actually happened

is a lot of Debian's discussions
take place on mailing lists

that are not only publicly viewable
they are totally un-moderated.

And this is good in one sense it helps
keep the wider community involved

but it also means that there
are people who get involved

on those mailing lists who I do
not believe are in any reasonable

sense part of the Debian project
and are not communicating with it.

And who come along pretty much I
think purely to stir up arguments.

How much of the systemd flame war [laugh]
was people who were actively involved

in the project? And how much of it was?
Do we need somewhere the project can

discuss things that can't just be posted
to be any random troll on the internet?

Well, in Ubuntu Ubuntu Devel was
split into Ubuntu Devel for members only

and it's basic access rights and then
discuss for general public.

The net result was that yes the flame wars
disappeared, however the community

contracted a lot as well. And that turned
a whole bunch of people so much that

the traffic just became dead.

[audience]: It may also result in just
all flame wars just moving from one

mailing list to a different mailing list
and staying

Right, initially that's what happened.
But then loads of people unsubscribed

And then people disappeared,
over a longer time.

[audience]: Can I ask a question
about this experiment in Ubuntu?

What was the situation if you were a
non-Ubuntu developer/person and you

mailed that mailing list? Would
somebody moderate it?

It goes to moderation queue and
then Colin Watson every other fortnight

He would approve a whole bunch of messages
if they were fine.

[audience]: And would you get
white-listed eventually?

And yes, if you post enough
you get white-listed by Colin.

But it all falls back to Colin
or something like that.

[audience] That's a lot of overhead
for a team that already can't

keep up in our case.

[audience]: It also slows down the
discussion a lot.

Facilitator: And to be honest these are
all reactive containing measures.

[audience]: yeah, we shouldn't have
this problem in the first place.

But the problem is that the world has
crappy people in it and if we set up

a thing that is attractive to those
crappy people where they can do

their crappy things then
they will come and do it.

And you can say well that's bad, but you
know if you have a solution for dealing

with that for the whole world then [laugh]

[audience]: You can't fight social
problems with technical measures.

[audience]: They can help

That's completely false, for example
Debian bug tracker should stop

unsubscribing me because I use Gmail.
[Laughter] But that's unrelated to topic.

I was thinking about one thing to have a
discussion in a more (?? 17:42) environment

I think more of them are via wiki as you
don't have the personality that's put

forward so much, you can edit if there
is anything too offensive. You still have

the history so it's not lost the thing
that's displayed there if it hasn't been

edited for let's say a day it's probably
the (?? 17:58)

this is not bad and if you edit you
explicitly, it's visible to everybody

that it was considered (??18:04) not bad and then
after when you have the discussion

you can have section about argument
and people they answer just below

And then you don't keep repeating
yourself about what you said.

You answer some question and somebody
asks again the same thing you have

everything there. If it's not there you
add it. I don't think you can do

everything this way but when you have an
idea in open discussion it's not going

to work. But when you have an idea you
try to reach consensus for something

maybe using a wiki could be quite useful.
Something which is not conversation based

but you know just shared
[audience]: content based

[audience]: In Wikipedia they have long
discussions about things and it's quite

you can have sections often that these
don't help to create some concerns.

Even the same arguments are repeated
over and over again.

So it doesn't really help, in my opinion.
Facilitator: Andy

It strikes me we're all in agreement
that we shouldn't be tolerating anything

we should be and we're saying
who's going to moderate it.

The simple answer is every single
person has to moderate it.

There and then, at the point you see
something you've got to call it out.

We've got to stop being rocks
and being passive ourselves.

And until that happens we're not
going to create an environment

where people feel safe to state their
opinion and beliefs and their identities

because of fear that their going to be
called out in some way.

And so we've got to, you now if I'm out
of order stop me now don't wait a week

and bitch that Andy's being a bit of a
dick out there and have a moan [laughter].

At the point I start to be a dick stop me.
[audience laughter]

And that should apply to
every single person.

Facilitator: Again we're talking about
reactive. What can we do to be more

proactive and get more people involved?
Sorry.

I just wanted to say that I've ended up
in a couple of Debian devel discussions

and on the front page of happy news and
slash dot and the Debian devel discussion

was going on there was lots of personal
attacks and it was Ian Jackson stepped in

and a couple of other developers
stepped in and they defended me.

And it was because I'd seen that there
were people that were going

"no what are you doing, this
is wrong don't do this"

I knew that that wasn't the
overall view of the community.

And just seeing something happening
made everything a lot better.

Facilitator: This is going back to the
concept I was talking about about the

personality moderators. And as I say
sometimes you may be wanting to say

something but you don't feel you can.
And because it's a silent thing people

aren't going to know that you did want to
something which is why you need people

you can approach and say this
is what I want to say, this is why

I don't feel I can say it.

So, how can I try to be proactive with
diversity? I think that's one of the..

we're all in agreement that we should be
more diverse, what can we do to fix that?

In Debian we have an outreach team
which runs/participates in internship

programmes: Google Summer of Code,
Outreachy. That are programmes that try

to involve new people in our community.

We are struggling with finding good
projects and good mentors to guide

those interns in the project.

We're also trying to do diversity
bursaries for DebConf so bringing

new people into those conferences.

We need, I guess, help to do that.
[audience]: Where do we sign up?

[audience]: Where do we sign up to help?
[audience laughter]

So, there is a Debian outreach mailing
list were we send announcements

about programmes. We can talk and add
more people to the outreach ideas.

And if you have ideas about what we can,
what we should do, then you can speak up.

Facilitator: What's the first port of call
for a new person for the Debian Project?

[audience] There is a welcome
team, I'm not part of it

No, I mean when someone says here's
Debian I want to find out about it.

Where's the first place they go?
[audience]: Front page

Facilitator: Yes. We need something linked
off the front page. There's nothing on or

linked from the front page that indicates
our diversity because I had difficulty

finding our diversity page a couple of
days ago in preparation for this BoF.

[audience]: good point
Facilitator: Some of the information is

there but it's not immediately visible.
It's silent and that's where we need

to increase our visibility and say look
we are inclusive of these things

come and join us.

[audience]: I don't know, I always view
Debian as a social project rather than

a technical one.
Facilitator: It's a mixture of both

[audience]: How is that relevant?

Because our front page is all about
how to download the ISO [laughs]

[audience]: So debian.org, in your
opinion, is directly technical

rather than social? Yes.
[audience]: And it should be both

[audience]: So we need to fix that

[audience]: that's quite a sweeping
assessment. [laughter]

I'm exaggerating. [audience]: There is
some people stuff on there as well

but it's smaller than all the rest.
There should be something there

and the text is quite this big [very
small].

There's a number of bugs open on
www.debian.org and the problems

that I think we have and we talked
about in Vienna if you wanted to

get started with packaging you have
no hope. [laughter] You have literally

no hope. We tried to organise the wiki
pages and there was no easy way to

get started so I think we are closed to
new people unless you already know

someone who can help you get started.
The downloading of ISOs is entirely

done badly and Steve has a bug on that.
And the blends (?? 24:55) pages were all listed

under the developers section even though
that was user documentation.

So I moved those out. But there is a lot
of work to be done on the website and

I think the first step for that is filing
bugs with ideas of how to reorganise

this and there really does need to be a
project for that.

[audience]: does anybody here even look at
the front page or use it for anything?

Because I go to tracker.debian.org,
that's the only URL I go to

[audience]: I can never remember the
categorisation of the URL so I have to

not URL hack, because I always end
up at some 404. So I have to go via

the front page and its maddening.
[Laughter]