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Recent initiative that has recently been 
getting more and more important

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And we're not just talking about inclusion
due to gender, we want to talk about

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sexual identity, gender identity, 
invisible illness, disabilities,

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race, creed, colour, whatever kind of 
colour you might wear in your underpants

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whatever. So, I don’t want to run this 
lecture I want this to be a workshop I'm

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only here as a facilitator I want you 
people to get involved that's why all the

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ambient microphones here in the lecture 
theatre are on but only for this session.

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Ok. That means I don’t have to keep 
passing the microphone around. As most

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of you are probably aware I’m going to 
kick off with myself and why it's so

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important for me. As you’re very aware 
I’m a trans woman which is something

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the recent Trump election has made me 
very very scared about. I’m also bisexual,

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also have two invisible illnesses I’m a 
manic depressive and I suffer from gout

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and arthritis. So I tick many of the 
boxes that diversity and inclusion are all

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about. So this is why it’s important to 
me and I want you guys, anyone else want

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to kick off and say what diversity and 
inclusion means to them and what can

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we as Debian do more about it to raise 
it’s visibility how to catch when it’s

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contravened maybe possibly review our 
diversity statement though I think it's

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pretty good as it is at the moment. So 
does anyone else want to say anything

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after I’ve finished my wurbling. Go 
ahead guys it’s up to you this is for

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everyone to be involved

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Well it’s interesting because Debian 
as a whole if you look across the last

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20 odd years is one of the most diverse 
entities I can think of at this scale

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and, you know, we have people of all 
beliefs and none,

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we have mostly men and too few women

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we have very few physically disabled folk

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we have very few visually impaired folk

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relative to the numbers of Debian 
developers Debian maintainers.

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But actually we are a good diverse 
community even if sometimes

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we don't sound like it. We’re a lot 
better than some of the main stream.

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Oh I completely agree with you. I mean 
last year was my first year at the mini

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deb conf since I transitioned full time 
and I was just amazed at how accepting

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everybody was it was just fantastic and 
it just was a non-issue and I blogged

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about this on Plant Debian later. 
But yeah, I agree we are more diverse

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than the average but I still think 
there's more we can do and

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possibly I’d like to see more 
pro-activism about it rather than

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just passive acceptance if you see what I 
mean.

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Anybody else?

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So a lot of people here will know me and 
this is going to sound a bit odd

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but I think Debian is doing very 
badly at being inclusive to

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people who don't like fighting 
[audience laughter]

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[audience] Thank you Ian

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[audience] That's a fair point

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And I'm very conscious of this 
and I try very hard

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to encourage and help those people.
And because I'm rather thick skinned

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and, you know, being a bit older I 
don't care so much what people think

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I'm more able to fight than other people 
are. But I'm still having to fight too

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much. I'm having to fight too much 
not so much for myself

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but for other people that I think, you
know, are getting a raw deal.

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And I don't really know what to do about 
that.

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You're entirely right

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There is an adversarial approach

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understanding your corner is how you 
argue something forwards

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and that same approach is what, as 
you quite rightly say, puts a lot of

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people off as they don't want to 
fight because you don't have

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enough confidence to your own 
ability to stand your corner.

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But the reason people are doing this
is purely because if you don't shout

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if you don't push your own agenda
nothing will happen

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and we end up with the status quo.

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So, how do we get other people involved?

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How do we get the adversarial 
approach out of it?

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And I think this is covering the whole
diversity bit Lucy is talking about

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is unless people are brave enough to
stand up and say this is an issue for me

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nobody is going to pay any attention

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and part of the problem is you have to 
stand up and say this is an issue for me.

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Where do we go?

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So, I'm speaking from a position
of privilege.

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So please tell me if what I'm about 
to say you think is wrong.

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You said that it would be a 
good thing to take the

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adversarial approach out of Debian

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There’s a degree to which I’m not sure 
that’s necessarily the best approach.

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The scientific method, the Socratic 
method the sort of like actually

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having debate to discuss what 
the best solutions are

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I think there is virtue in that. I think 
there's and element to which you need

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to argue your corner. But at the same
time what you're saying is that you're

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having to fight too much.

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Certainly conflicts can become personal
and they can become deeply adversarial

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which is not necessarily good. I think 
the ideal is one where you can

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continue to engage in the Socratic 
and the scientific method

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but may do so in a place where
it is safe to be wrong.

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Lars you wanted to say something?

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Yes, I was going to basically say what he 
said but stressing the fact that there is

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a difference between a debate 
and a flame war.

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Yes and recognising that is the point
where it is becoming personal

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is the point we've got to all stop.

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In fact recognising it's about to become
personal is the point we've got to stop.

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I'm just going to throw out an idea here
that may be completely bonkers

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or not really that acceptable 
but is it possibly an idea to have

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some kind of Debian appointed/
official personality moderators?

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So basically if something seems to be 
giong out of line they will take to

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personal messaging someone saying
can you cool it down a bit.

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[audience] A speaker of the house or 
referee?

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more something/one that a people 
who don’t feel they can for themselves

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can go to or if they see in a discussion 
that something’s going out of order

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they can take the people aside and 
say look calm down guys.

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I mean it’s just an idea and those 
people are publicised in some way

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on the wiki or whatever.
Sorry Andy?

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So hire some psychologist to monitor 
our mailing list? [audience laughter]

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It's interesting in fact because I've 
spent 20 years plus on mailing lists.

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I've seen flame wars in Debian like you 
wouldn't believe. [audience laughter]

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But, I think we're getting better. 
And surprisingly I think we're

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getting better because we're getting
used to operating at a distance

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via the impersonal medium of
messaging and messages.

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I think it's a thing you have to get used
to but when it becomes personal

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then it becomes very difficult.
I suppose the only thing I

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would like people to think and
try and remember is that respect

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goes upwards, downwards, sideways.

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And that sort of of respect across the 
project works better.

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I don't think we're doing well on diversity at all.
[audience]: I agree

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Debian is extremely straight white


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male working man's club community.

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And if I look at my employers as well
in my team we're all white male.

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And that's a team of 15 people, 
that's not diverse.

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Yeah, and unfortunately it's a problem 
across the entire industry. [audience]:yes

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One of the reasons I've been pushing
this recently is that I've been getting

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involved in our own internal 
ARM diversity and inclusion.

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And in fact I was in a video they did 
recently for Ada Lovelace day.

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It's the fact that we're 
not retaining women

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the fact that a lot of people who feel 
safe to be out in some other way is

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limited and we're trying to 
improve on this and

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I'm just seeing this as an extension 
of this, personally if I'm doing it in

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one part of my life I want to 
do it in other parts of my life.

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That's why I wanted to launch this BoF.

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But yes I agree I don't believe we are 
representative we tend to be more

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accepting but our inclusion's pretty 
good but our diversity is pretty poor.

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People agree with that?
[audience]: yes