Recent initiative that has recently been getting more and more important
And we're not just talking about inclusion due to gender, we want to talk about
sexual identity, gender identity, invisible illness, disabilities,
race, creed, colour, whatever kind of colour you might wear in your underpants
whatever. So, I don’t want to run this lecture I want this to be a workshop I'm
only here as a facilitator I want you people to get involved that's why all the
ambient microphones here in the lecture theatre are on but only for this session.
Ok. That means I don’t have to keep passing the microphone around. As most
of you are probably aware I’m going to kick off with myself and why it's so
important for me. As you’re very aware I’m a trans woman which is something
the recent Trump election has made me very very scared about. I’m also bisexual,
also have two invisible illnesses I’m a manic depressive and I suffer from gout
and arthritis. So I tick many of the boxes that diversity and inclusion are all
about. So this is why it’s important to me and I want you guys, anyone else want
to kick off and say what diversity and inclusion means to them and what can
we as Debian do more about it to raise it’s visibility how to catch when it’s
contravened maybe possibly review our diversity statement though I think it's
pretty good as it is at the moment. So does anyone else want to say anything
after I’ve finished my wurbling. Go ahead guys it’s up to you this is for
everyone to be involved
Well it’s interesting because Debian as a whole if you look across the last
20 odd years is one of the most diverse entities I can think of at this scale
and, you know, we have people of all beliefs and none,
we have mostly men and too few women
we have very few physically disabled folk
we have very few visually impaired folk
relative to the numbers of Debian developers Debian maintainers.
But actually we are a good diverse community even if sometimes
we don't sound like it. We’re a lot better than some of the main stream.
Oh I completely agree with you. I mean last year was my first year at the mini
deb conf since I transitioned full time and I was just amazed at how accepting
everybody was it was just fantastic and it just was a non-issue and I blogged
about this on Plant Debian later. But yeah, I agree we are more diverse
than the average but I still think there's more we can do and
possibly I’d like to see more pro-activism about it rather than
just passive acceptance if you see what I mean.
Anybody else?
So a lot of people here will know me and this is going to sound a bit odd
but I think Debian is doing very badly at being inclusive to
people who don't like fighting [audience laughter]
[audience] Thank you Ian
[audience] That's a fair point
And I'm very conscious of this and I try very hard
to encourage and help those people. And because I'm rather thick skinned
and, you know, being a bit older I don't care so much what people think
I'm more able to fight than other people are. But I'm still having to fight too
much. I'm having to fight too much not so much for myself
but for other people that I think, you know, are getting a raw deal.
And I don't really know what to do about that.
You're entirely right
There is an adversarial approach
understanding your corner is how you argue something forwards
and that same approach is what, as you quite rightly say, puts a lot of
people off as they don't want to fight because you don't have
enough confidence to your own ability to stand your corner.
But the reason people are doing this is purely because if you don't shout
if you don't push your own agenda nothing will happen
and we end up with the status quo.
So, how do we get other people involved?
How do we get the adversarial approach out of it?
And I think this is covering the whole diversity bit Lucy is talking about
is unless people are brave enough to stand up and say this is an issue for me
nobody is going to pay any attention
and part of the problem is you have to stand up and say this is an issue for me.
Where do we go?
So, I'm speaking from a position of privilege.
So please tell me if what I'm about to say you think is wrong.
You said that it would be a good thing to take the
adversarial approach out of Debian
There’s a degree to which I’m not sure that’s necessarily the best approach.
The scientific method, the Socratic method the sort of like actually
having debate to discuss what the best solutions are
I think there is virtue in that. I think there's and element to which you need
to argue your corner. But at the same time what you're saying is that you're
having to fight too much.
Certainly conflicts can become personal and they can become deeply adversarial
which is not necessarily good. I think the ideal is one where you can
continue to engage in the Socratic and the scientific method
but may do so in a place where it is safe to be wrong.
Lars you wanted to say something?
Yes, I was going to basically say what he said but stressing the fact that there is
a difference between a debate and a flame war.
Yes and recognising that is the point where it is becoming personal
is the point we've got to all stop.
In fact recognising it's about to become personal is the point we've got to stop.
I'm just going to throw out an idea here that may be completely bonkers
or not really that acceptable but is it possibly an idea to have
some kind of Debian appointed/ official personality moderators?
So basically if something seems to be giong out of line they will take to
personal messaging someone saying can you cool it down a bit.
[audience] A speaker of the house or referee?
more something/one that a people who don’t feel they can for themselves
can go to or if they see in a discussion that something’s going out of order
they can take the people aside and say look calm down guys.
I mean it’s just an idea and those people are publicised in some way
on the wiki or whatever. Sorry Andy?
So hire some psychologist to monitor our mailing list? [audience laughter]
It's interesting in fact because I've spent 20 years plus on mailing lists.
I've seen flame wars in Debian like you wouldn't believe. [audience laughter]
But, I think we're getting better. And surprisingly I think we're
getting better because we're getting used to operating at a distance
via the impersonal medium of messaging and messages.
I think it's a thing you have to get used to but when it becomes personal
then it becomes very difficult. I suppose the only thing I
would like people to think and try and remember is that respect
goes upwards, downwards, sideways.
And that sort of of respect across the project works better.
I don't think we're doing well on diversity at all. [audience]: I agree
Debian is extremely straight white
male working man's club community.
And if I look at my employers as well in my team we're all white male.
And that's a team of 15 people, that's not diverse.
Yeah, and unfortunately it's a problem across the entire industry. [audience]:yes
One of the reasons I've been pushing this recently is that I've been getting
involved in our own internal ARM diversity and inclusion.
And in fact I was in a video they did recently for Ada Lovelace day.
It's the fact that we're not retaining women
the fact that a lot of people who feel safe to be out in some other way is
limited and we're trying to improve on this and
I'm just seeing this as an extension of this, personally if I'm doing it in
one part of my life I want to do it in other parts of my life.
That's why I wanted to launch this BoF.
But yes I agree I don't believe we are representative we tend to be more
accepting but our inclusion's pretty good but our diversity is pretty poor.
People agree with that? [audience]: yes