Recent initiative that has recently been getting more and more important.
And we're not just talking about inclusion due to gender, we want to talk about
sexual identity, gender identity, invisible illness, disabilities, race,
creed, colour, whatever kind of colour you might wear in your underpants - whatever.
So, I don’t want to run this as a lecture, I want this to be a workshop.
I'm only here as a facilitator; I want you people to get involved
that's why all the ambient microphones here in the lecture theatre are on
but only for this session.
That means I don’t have to keep passing the microphone around.
As most of you are probably aware - I’m going to kick off with myself
and why it's so important for me -
as you’re well aware I’m a trans woman, which is something the recent Trump
election has made me very very scared about. I’m also bisexual.
I also have two invisible illnesses: I’m a manic depressive and I suffer
from gout and arthritis.
So I tick many of the boxes that diversity and inclusion are all about.
So this is why it’s important to me, and I want you guys - anyone else want
to kick off and say what diversity and inclusion means to them and what can
we as Debian do more to raise its visibility, how to catch when it's
contravened, maybe possibly review our diversity statement (though I think it's
pretty good as it is at the moment). So does anyone else want to say anything
after I’ve finished my wurbling? Go ahead guys it’s up to you - this is for
everyone to be involved
Well it’s interesting because Debian as a whole if you look across the last
20 odd years is one of the most diverse entities I can think of at this scale
and, you know, we have people of all beliefs and none,
we have mostly men and too few women
we have very few physically disabled folk
we have very few visually impaired folk
relative to the numbers of Debian developers Debian maintainers.
But actually we are a good diverse community even if sometimes
we don't sound like it. We’re a lot better than some of the main stream.
Oh I completely agree with you. I mean last year was my first year at the mini
deb conf since I transitioned full time and I was just amazed at how accepting
everybody was it was just fantastic and it just was a non-issue and I blogged
about this on Plant Debian later. But yeah, I agree we are more diverse
than the average but I still think there's more we can do and
possibly I’d like to see more pro-activism about it rather than
just passive acceptance if you see what I mean.
Anybody else?
So a lot of people here will know me and this is going to sound a bit odd
but I think Debian is doing very badly at being inclusive to
people who don't like fighting
[audience laughter]
[audience] Thank you Ian
[audience] That's a fair point
And I'm very conscious of this and I try very hard
to encourage and help those people. And because I'm rather thick skinned
and being a bit older I don't care so much what people think
I'm more able to fight than other people are. But I'm still having to fight too
much. I'm having to fight too much not so much for myself
but for other people that I think are getting a raw deal.
And I don't really know what to do about that.
You're entirely right
There is an adversarial approach
understanding your corner is how you argue something forwards
and that same approach is what, as you quite rightly say, puts a lot of
people off as they don't want to fight because you may not have
enough confidence to your own ability to stand your corner.
But the reason people are doing this is purely because if you don't shout
if you don't push your own agenda nothing will happen.
And we end up with the status quo.
So, how do we get other people involved?
How do we get the adversarial approach out of this?
And I think this is covering the whole diversity bit Lucy is talking about
is unless people are brave enough to stand up and say this is an issue for me
nobody is going to pay any attention.
And part of the problem is you've got to stand up and say this is an issue for me.
Where do we go?
So, I'm speaking from a position of privilege.
So please tell me if what I'm about to say you think is wrong.
You said that it would be a good thing to take the
adversarial approach out of Debian
There’s a degree to which I’m not sure that’s necessarily the best approach.
The scientific method, the Socratic method the sort of actually
having debate to discuss what the best solutions are
I think there is virtue in that. I think there's and element to which you need
to argue your corner. But at the same time what you're saying is that you're
having to fight too much. Certainly conflicts can become personal
and they can become deeply adversarial which is not necessarily good.
I think the ideal is one where you can continue to engage in the Socratic
and the scientific method but may do so in a place where
it is safe to be wrong.
Lars you wanted to say something?
Yes, I was going to basically say what he said but stressing the fact that there is
a difference between a debate and a flame war.
Yes and recognising that is the point where it is becoming personal
is the point we've got to all stop.
In fact recognising it's about to become personal is the point we've got to stop.
I'm just going to throw out an idea here that may be completely bonkers
or not really that acceptable but is it possibly an idea to have
some kind of Debian appointed/ official personality moderators?
So basically if something seems to be going out of line they will take to
personal messaging someone saying can you cool it down a bit.
[audience] A speaker of the house or referee?
More something/one that people who don’t feel they can for themselves
can go to or if they see in a discussion that something’s going out of order
they can take the people aside and say look calm down guys.
I mean it’s just an idea and those people are publicised in some way
on the wiki or whatever. Sorry Andy?
So hire some psychologist to monitor our mailing list? [audience laughter]
It's interesting in fact because I've spent 20 years plus on mailing lists.
I've seen flame wars in Debian like you wouldn't believe. [audience laughter]
But, I think we're getting better. And surprisingly I think we're
getting better because we're getting used to operating at a distance
via the impersonal medium of messaging and messages.
I think it's a thing you have to get used to but when it becomes personal
then it becomes very difficult. I suppose the only thing I
would like people to think and try and remember is that
respect goes upwards, downwards, sideways.
And that sort of of respect across the project works better.
I don't think we're doing well on diversity at all. [audience]: I agree
I think Debian is extremely straight white male working men's club community.
And if I look at my employers as well in my team we're all white male.
And that's a team of 15 people, that's not diverse.
Yeah, and unfortunately it's a problem across the entire industry. [audience]:yes
One of the reasons I've been pushing this recently is that I've been getting
involved in our own internal ARM diversity and inclusion.
And in fact I was in a video they did recently for Ada Lovelace day.
It's the fact that we're not retaining women
the fact that a lot of people who feel safe to be out in some other way
is limited and we're trying to improve on this and
I'm just seeing this as an extension of this, personally if I'm doing it in
one part of my life I want to do it in other parts of my life.
That's why I wanted to launch this BoF.
But yes I agree I don't believe we are representative we tend to be more
accepting but our inclusion's pretty good but our diversity is pretty poor.
People agree with that? [audience]: yes
Steve
We keep on saying we have a diversity statement we want to support diverse
people, absolutely, we're better than we used to be but we're still crap.
I mean I remember 15 years ago having discussions like this when
we had 3 whole female developers.
I don't know how many we have now. [audience]: well more than that
If it's more than 20 or 30 I'd be amazed. [audience]: Active?
It's certainly not many but in new members, at least, we don't track it.
Precisely because it shouldn't be.
On a related note: when 2 Debian Developers have children do they
become DDs automatically? [audience]: laughter
So actually related to that, just looking round the room one of the metrics
where we're not being very inclusive is getting young people in.
Particularly if it's an adversarial relationship and you have to argue
your case. If you're 16 years old then that might be an unattractive place to be
Something to help support people and get up to speed would be wonderful.
Well I have experience trying to get someone of that age to a technical
related conference. At that age people are so self conscious that even if
you are extremely supportive they won't go.
So I don't think that's necessarily a fixable problem.
I'm trying to solve that problem. My daughter has come to a couple
of Deb Confs she's not at that age yet and will be later.
The approach is bring her earlier. She'll be here tomorrow.
One problem I see is that I don't think we should be openly pro-active about it
like making a big deal out of it. What I see is that when something
bad happens like a woman is stalked by a man or
someone has a problem with your sexuality then as a bystander what can I do
to make this better? Because if I see something I don't know
what I should do to diffuse the situation to make the one that is
stalking or making bad comments
[audience]: you should use your male white privilege to call out bigotry
Yes [audience]: And stand up for other people
Ok [audience]: should there be an escalation process when that doesn't work?
No, it's de-escalation process. You're not accusing people.
[audience]: But the point is when it doesn't work.
When it doesn't work, right, ok. [audience] When it continues potentially
the same offender in one case or many cases. Is there a way that this is able to
be taken further by a group in Debian that can potentially
deal with that individual or group? Lars?
So I see again a duality, people who need to be taught or need to learn
to not be jerks. [audience laughter] But most people are happy to not
be jerks if they're shown how not to. But there is a small group of people
who need to be kicked out. Yesterday in the evening, late in the evening, on the
Debian women channel mikeyUSA (?? 13:47) came back. [audience]: Oh oh, oh no
He was very happy of the US presidential (election result).
But like, I don't know, personally I block people on Facebook.
I have 35 people blocked on Facebook. Because I just don't want to.
And then my life became happier online [Laugh]
[audience]: That works on a personal level but having an irc channel
frequented by (?? 14:13) views of hate and indifference (?? 14:18)
needs to be corrected on a project level.
One thing that's been suggested before but never really actually happened
is a lot of Debian's discussions take place on mailing lists
that are not only publicly viewable they are totally un-moderated.
And this is good in one sense it helps keep the wider community involved
but it also means that there are people who get involved
on those mailing lists who I do not believe are in any reasonable
sense part of the Debian project and are not communicating with it.
And who come along pretty much I think purely to stir up arguments.
How much of the system-d (?? 15:08) flame war [laugh] was people who were actively involved
in the project? And how much of it was? Do we need somewhere the project can
discuss things that can't just be posted to be any random troll on the internet?
Well, in Ubuntu Ubuntu Devel was split into Ubuntu Devel for members only
and it's basic access rights and then discuss for general public.
The net result was that yes the flame wars disappeared, however the community
contracted a lot as well. And that turned a whole bunch of people so much that
the traffic just became dead.
[audience]: It may also result in just all flame wars just moving from one
mailing list to a different mailing list and staying
Right, initially that's what happened. But then loads of people unsubscribed
And then people disappeared, over a longer time.
[audience]: Can I ask a question about this experiment in Ubuntu?
What was the situation if you were a non-Ubuntu developer/person and you
mailed that mailing list? Would somebody moderate it?
It goes to moderation queue and then Colin Watson, every other fortnight,
He would approve a whole bunch of messages if they were fine.
[audience]: And would you get white-listed eventually?
And yes, if you post enough you get white-listed by Colin.
But it all falls back to Colin or something like that.
[audience] That's a lot of overhead for a team that already can't
keep up in our case.
[audience]: It also slows down the discussion a lot.
[Facilitator]: And to be honest these are all reactive containing measures.
[audience]: yeah, we shouldn't have this problem in the first place.
But the problem is that the world has crappy people in it and if we set up
a thing that is attractive to those crappy people where they can do
their crappy things then they will come and do it.
And you can say well that's bad, but you know if you have a solution for dealing
with that for the whole world then [laugh]
[audience]: You can't fight social problems with technical measures.
[audience]: They can help
That's completely false, for example Debian bug tracker (??172:7) should stop
unsubscribing me because I use Gmail. But that's unrelated to the topic.
I was thinking about one thing to have a discussion in a more (?? 17:42) environment
I think more of them are via wiki as you don't have the personality that's put
forward so much, you can edit if there is anything too offensive. You still have
the history so it's not lost the thing that's displayed there if it hasn't been
edited for let's say a day it's probably the (?? 17:58)
this is not bad and if you edit you explicitly, it's visible to everybody
that it was considered (??18:04) not bad and then after when you have the discussion
you can have section about argument and people they answer just below
And then you don't keep repeating yourself about what you said.
You answer some question and somebody asks again the same thing you have
everything there. If it's not there you add it. I don't think you can do
everything this way but when you have an idea in open discussion it's not going
to work. But when you have an idea you try to reach consensus for something
maybe using a wiki could be quite useful. Something which is not conversation based
but you know just shared [audience]: content based
[audience]: In Wikipedia they have long discussions about things and it's quite
often you can have sections often that these don't help to create some concerns.
Even the same arguments are repeated over and over again.
So it doesn't really help, in my opinion. Facilitator: Andy
It strikes me we're all in agreement that we shouldn't be tolerating anything
we should be and we're saying who's going to moderate it.
The simple answer is every single person has to moderate it.
There and then, at the point you see something you've got to call it out.
We've got to stop being rocks and being passive ourselves.
And until that happens we're not going to create an environment
where people feel safe to state their opinion and beliefs and their identities.
Because of fear that their going to be called out in some way.
And so we've got to, you now if I'm out of order stop me now don't wait a week
and bitch that Andy's being a bit of a dick out there and have a moan.
At the point I start to be a dick stop me. [audience laughter]
And that should apply to every single person.
Facilitator: Again we're talking about reactive. What can we do to be more
proactive and get more people involved?
I just wanted to say that I've ended up in a couple of Debian devel discussions
and on the front page of happy news and slash dot and the Debian devel discussion
was going on there was lots of personal attacks and it was Ian Jackson stepped in
and a couple of other developers stepped in and they defended me.
And it was because I'd seen that there were people that were going
"no what are you doing, this is wrong don't do this"
I knew that that wasn't the overall view of the community.
And just seeing something happening made everything a lot better.
Facilitator: This is going back to the concept I was talking about about the
personality moderators. And as I say sometimes you may be wanting to say
something but you don't feel you can. And because it's a silent thing people
aren't going to know that you did want to something which is why you need people
you can approach and say this is what I want to say, this is why
I don't feel I can say it.
So, how can I try to be proactive with diversity? I think that's one of the..
we're all in agreement that we should be more diverse, what can we do to fix that?
In Debian we have an outreach team which runs / participates in internship
programmes: Google Summer of Code, Outreachy. That are programmes that try
to involve new people in our community.
We are struggling with finding good projects and good mentors to guide
those interns in the project.
We're also trying to do diversity bursaries for DebConf so bringing
new people into those conferences.
We need, I guess, help to do that. [audience]: Where do we sign up?
[audience]: Where do we sign up to help? [audience laughter]
So, there is a Debian outreach mailing list where we send announcements
about programmes. We can talk and add more people to the outreach ideas.
And if you have ideas about what we can, what we should do, then you can speak up.
Facilitator: What's the first port of call for any new person for the Debian Project?
[audience] There is a welcome team, I'm not part of it
No, I mean when someone says here's Debian I want to find out about it.
Where's the first place they go? [audience]: Front page
Facilitator: Yes. We need something linked off the front page. There's nothing on or
linked from the front page that indicates our diversity because I had difficulty
finding our diversity page a couple of days ago in preparation for this BoF.
[audience]: good point Facilitator: Some of the information is
there but it's not immediately visible. It's silent and that's where we need
to increase our visibility and say look we are inclusive of these things
come and join us.
[audience]: I don't know, I always view Debian as a social project rather than
a technical one. Facilitator: It's a mixture of both
[audience]: How is that relevant?
Because our front page is all about how to download the ISO (?? 23:45)
[audience]: So debian.org, in your opinion, is directly technical
rather than social? Yes. [audience]: And it should be both
[audience]: So we need to fix that
[audience]: That's quite a sweeping assessment. [laughter]
I'm exaggerating. [audience]: There is some people stuff on there as well
but it's smaller than all the rest. There should be something there.
There is, the text is like this big [very small].
There's a number of bugs open on www.debian.org and the problems
that I think we have and we talked about in Vienna if you wanted to
get started with packaging you have no hope. [laughter] You have literally
no hope. We tried to organise the wiki pages and there was no easy way to
get started. So I think we are closed to new people unless you already know
someone who can help you get started. The downloading of ISOs (?? 24:49) is entirely
done badly and Steve has a bug on that. And the blends (?? 24:55) pages were all listed
under the developers section even though that was user documentation.
So I moved those out. But there is a lot of work to be done on the website and
I think the first step for that is filing bugs with ideas of how to reorganise
this and there really does need to be a project for that.
[audience]: does anybody here even look at the front page or use it for anything?
Because I go to tracker.debian.org, that's the only URL I go to
[audience]: I can never remember the categorisation of the URL so I have to
not URL hack, because I always end up at some 404. So I have to go via
the front page and its maddening. [Laughter]
Speaking of packaging I remember (?? 25.38) back in the days when I didn't know
basically I needed help with how the dev packages were made up, what's inside it,
but I didn't know how to create the ones except create Debian capital directory
and package into it. [audience laughter] I remember that I learned how to do that
not through debian.org but I knew someone who knew how to create
Debian packages using dev helper and they gave me, like, a long Debian roll script
100 lines of something and I started hacking on that and just trying things out
but these days it's slightly better but I still don't know what page to point
people at. Probably something on the wiki but no idea actually.
[audience]: is it slightly better or are you just more familiar with what needs
to be done? When I try to find a specification
of multiarch it's on the wiki. [audience]: That's the Canonical location.
I tried to learn how to use dev triggers last week. I later learned that I don't
actually need triggers for that package I can do it differently, I didn't use
triggers in the end. But, I actually went to an internal Collabora wiki/resource
an internal source that used triggers. [audience]: Can I interrupt you here a
moment and say we seem to be getting derailed into a discussion of
of our technical deficiencies with our technical documentation and I'm
sure that all of us are aware of deficiencies in our technical
documentation. And I'm not sure that as part of an outreach effort is quite
the right framing for that. [audience]: it's one of many things
we need to improve but the very very first thing people see, as Lucy said, is
way below par. [audience]: But this, I think, actually
quite a good point because we are getting lost ourselves and getting sidetracked
of the issue of how do we pro-actively encourage diversity. And we seem as a
group to be spiraling down the technocracy again. We seem to be fixated on the
technical and how do we break that fixation.
[audience]: Well we're technical people [laughter]
[audience]: so how do we get people who are not technical.
[audience]: I'm going to say something very controversial here and so be aware
there's somebody at the back of the room you can throw things at. [Laughter]
I'm physically disabled I'm also what you might call neuro-diverse. If I'm feeling
bloody minded I just say I'm brain damaged. There are a lot of people
around me in Debian and also elsewhere who are on the autistic spectrum somewhere
who are technical types. We all tend to be focused, technical, dealing with technical
stuff is sometimes a lot easier than dealing with people.
We are the wrong people to be trying to pull people in and in fact
my other half was here last year, she sat in the kitchen and she said "god imagine
if you went to central casting and asked for geeks this is what you'd get"
I don't know that we are good at or going to be able to get more diverse people in.
But what we are good at is other aspects of diversity. We are good at allowing
people to be themselves in terms of gender, sexuality, sexual expression
and that kind of stuff. Which other parts of the world generally aren't
I mean it's not for nothing that we had a presentation last year on BDSM and Debian
from Enrico. [audience laughter]
Facilitator: Well I wonder if we can learn something from one of the other
major geek communities which is the sci-fi / fantasy fandom which have a very
wide diversity and have no problems attracting people. I mean the fact we're
geeks should preclude us from being able to be social. [audience]: I agree
[audience]: I mean Debian does attract weird people and I once said that by
definition to become a DD being weird is a requirement. [audience laughter]
But why stop there. We can do more.
[audience]: What include normal people? [audience laughter]
[audience]: Steady on. Lets not go there [audience]: How do you define normal again?
[audience]:Standing up straight
[audience]: one thing, I've just been clicking around on the Debian website
and basically there's only one image there and that's the Debian logo
[audience]: That's on purpose I don't say make it like Wouter's (?? 31:03) website
But there is some room I think for more, it doesn't have to be stock photo.
[audience]: Well on the Ubuntu website we have a lot of group photos from
conferences. [audience]: Could we put a picture from
DebConf. We are people like Debian [audience]: It's very impersonal though
and of course it's nice for big building times.
Facilitator: What about a few selected biographies with pictures and people
saying what Debian means to them and getting as a wide a selection of
people as possible? [audience]: How about 'We are Debian' and
literally small bits and pieces. You've seen quite a lot of the advertising
campaigns the bios don't necessarily need to put stuff behind but a photo,
random photo of every DD if they're happy to have it on the front page.
Picked at random photo show the diversity we've got so yes we're possibly
going to need to positively bias this. But show the diversity and by showing
what little diversity we've got but stressing it more frequently we're making
a safe, safe is the wrong word, a place where people are comfortable to be
themselves. [audience]: welcoming? Yes, welcoming.
And put that front and centre. Ultimately I would hope that
most of us in this room would say that we try to leave our prejudice
at the door. I think most of us are happy to recognise that we have
prejudice and have it called out on us when we cross a line.
And unless everybody else is prepared to do the same to us then we can't be
welcoming to anybody else because we're not creating an environment
where other people feel happy and safe in the first place.
[Facilitator]: And of course a lot of bias is unconscious.
[audience]: Very much unconscious and that's what we've got to overcome
so we've got to actively overcome it.
Would anybody here genuinely be upset if we put their photos on the front page?
[audience]: see also collabora.com [audience]: well quite. Modulo (??33.39) scaring
people away with my ugly face [audience laughter] but I've been doing that for
years and it doesn't seem to have had a major problem.
[Facilitator]: David Sorry I need to get my thoughts back
So you were saying something along the lines of unconscious biases and
wanting to see that corrected. I have certainly discovered that I've been
exhibiting this myself in the past and people have told me that this was a
thing and I've gone 'oh my god I'm so sorry'. Being able to do that in a public
forum and to be able to be able to set a good example as to what good
behaviour looks like I think might also have some value. I think there're lots
of people who are trying to do this already. I don't know if there's
anything that could be added there as well.
[audience]: meeting in real life really does help.
[audience]: Massively [audience]: Yes absolutely
[Facilitator]: Steve So I've heard quite a number of good ideas
a lot of which are going to need some technical work to make them happen.
There is a next obvious question: Who want's to help?
[audience]: Lots of voices saying "Me"
[audience]: we should take a picture of the DPL and put a face on the front page
with a quote, right, that's an action item [audience]: It's a start
[audience]: and to say we are a social project. Yes we have an operating system
but we have a social project as well. [audience]: absolutely, we've already
suggested several improvements we could make to our website and various
other things. A lot of the problems that we have in those areas are not that
people don't agree with those ideas, it's just finite effort. And we have a limited
number of people who've been able to find the time to do what is already
necessary and what we know is needed technically.
Again, we will need more help to do this kind of thing.
[audience]: I would object to raising the DPL as the one person to stick on the
front page. Please don't do that. Because there are more people in Debian.
[audience]: And will never apply to be DPL ever again. [audience]: yeah, yeah
[audience]: So if people want to help with this and actually get involved
technically to do it, that doesn't mean editing wml but it will mean writing
content. It will mean getting some stuff done. We can go forward with that
we can make it happen. But it is going to need some effort.
[audience]: I'll volunteer to write wml if someone decides that needs writing
[audience]: Ditto, I will do that for people if they need it.
[facilitator]: I'm happy to produce content as you're probably well aware.
[audience]: There's nothing in the Social Contract about diversity.
[Facilitator]: That's an interesting point
[audience]: There doesn't have to be.
[audience]: There isn't we did make, we had a public vote, and we made a
diversity statement a few years ago. We have made a very loud public statement
about the values of the project. In a similar fashion to what we did with
the Social Contract. Do you think it would help if there was something
about that in a modified Social Contract?
[audience]: Yes, because then it would be obviously central.
[audience]: At least part of the statement in the DFSG about not
discriminating in software against anybody.
[audience]: Yeah, I'm not sure that that would help given the rows there've been
over the Social Contract before. In all seriousness we promote Debian
as the universal operating system. We promote it as something for everybody.
Rather than putting it into our technical documentation we're better to live it.
Put it on the website, explain it. Live it in conferences like this.
I don't think we need to add it to every piece of technical documentation
provided we can live the culture. [audience]: Is the Social Contract a piece
of technical documentation? That's kind of interesting.
[audience]: If you want to push that you have my vote but I don't think
it's important.
[audience]: something that might help is showing these things not modifying them
but showing them on the same page. The DFSG is appended to the Social Contract.
Have the diversity statement there and anything else that's relevant and
you can find them in one place.
[Facilitator]: Right we need to wrap this up in the next few minutes.
So has anyone else got any points they want to raise at this point?
[audience]: Please make sure that the points that have been raised are in the
Gobby doc, we seem to have run out of steam there.
[audience]: One last thing, sorry. It comes into Social stuff
accessibility software, things like Dasher, things like anything you need
to do when you're blind or you've only got one arm or that kind of stuff
is at least as important in someways as some of the other diversity stuff.
As otherwise we will be excluding groups.
[Facilitator]: yeah I think that's quite valid.
[audience] I think that needs to be considered if we make any changes to
the website. Because at the moment it's lovely for screen readers. And don't take
that away. If we make the website all HTML5, JavaScript, CSS, Flash nonsense
we're going to screw screen readers. [audience]: no we can improve the website
whilst retaining it's current standard for accessibility.
Because the standard of accessibility for the Debian website is better
better than everything else out there. It's amazing.
So there are constraints on what we can do, that's well known.
Is Debian a universal operating system or is it a global social project?
An experiment? [audience]: Yes, both.
[audience]: It does not state that.
[audience]: So the first thing people look at is here's a load of technical
stuff about Debian. We have this many packages, here's how to download.
There is nothing to say Debian is also a big diverse project you could join in.
[audience]: It's a social project. [audience]: Definitely
[Facilitator]: Any other different opinions or things to raise before
we run out of time? I think we've done this bit to death now.
[audience]: Maybe one question with diversity. Do we want to reach or express
that we are diverse to our users or our developers. Is there a priority between
the 2? I think it would go from user to developer.
[Facilitator]: Well it's a bit blurred anyway.
[audience]: If we're a social project then everybody's included.
And that includes the users, the developers because that's
the point of a social group. It's a big huge social group.
It's a social network: I run Debian [laugh].
[Facilitator]: Right I think we can wrap it up there.
Thank you very very much all of you for taking part.
[audience]: Thank you for pushing this as well.
[Facilitator]: Thank you [audience]: Applause.