Jacques Pépin at MAD5: "Techniques of the Past for the Future"

Jacques Pépin is a chef, author, and television host, as well as the dean of the International Culinary Center in New York City. Jacques opened MAD5 with stories from the French kitchens of the 50's, as he demonstrated his own technique by making chicken galatine and teaching the audience to make an omelette.

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(Jacques) Good morning!

Good morning, everybody!

(Audience) Good morning!

Claudine and I are delighted
to be with you this morning

to be the first ones.

I left home when I was 13
to go to apprenticeship,

that was in 1949.

Actually, home was a restaurant
where my mother was the chef,

I was already in that business.

In fact, there was 12 restaurants
through the years in my family

and 12 of them owned by women,

I'm the first male to enter
that business in my family.

I went into apprenticeship from Lyon,
where my mother had her little restaurant

to Bourg-en-Bresse, where
I was born a few miles away.

Prior to that, when we were
about 8-9 years old,

my mother had that little restaurant

so, my brother and I,
before going to school,

walked with my mother to the market

- the St. Antoine market
along the Saône river -

and she would walk the market one way,
about 1/2 a mile, and buy on her way back.

Buying a case of mushrooms
which were getting dark

maybe for a third of the price or less.

We carried, of course,
we didn't have a car at the time.

She'd get home and start doing
her vegetables, peeling for the day.

She did not have
a refrigerator at that time.

She had an ice box, that is
a block of ice into a little cabinet,

so she'd have chicken of the day, meat,

fish, usually, whiting or mackerel
or skate - inexpensive fish -

and that she has to use it that day.

And again, the day after,
we start all over again.

Everything was organic,
everything was local.

The word organic did not really exist --

well, since chemical fertilizers
did not exist either,

or fungicides, insecticides, pesticides,
all that stuff did not exist,

so everything was, you know, local and --

(Claudine) Organic.
(Jacques) Organic, that's it.

So, I went into apprenticeship,
I was 13 years old and, at that time,

it was very structured,
well, still is to certain extend,

you got to be there on time,
you got to be clean,

you have to be willing,

it's discipline, it's structure,
that's the way a kitchen can work.

We learn through a type of osmosis.

The chef never really explained
anything, he'd just say, "Do that".

And if you say, "Why?", and he'd say,
"Because I just told you".

That was about the end
of the apprenticeship.

Probably, just as good for
someone who's 13-14 years old.

So, we worked, repeating, and repeating,
and repeating those techniques ad nauseam;

we were not allowed
to go to the stove for a year.

So, during that year,
I did pluck a lot of chicken,

eviscerated a lot of chicken,
scaled fish, chopped parsley,

all of that type of things,
and then, the chef called me --

My name was "you" at the time,

then by the time I went to the stove,
they called me Jacques, so I got the name.

So, he said, "You start tomorrow".

"I start tomorrow?",
I didn't know how to do it;

I went to the stove
and I knew how to do it.

There was that type of osmosis,
things that you show, that you mentor.

I've got a book called, "La technique",
that I published in 1975,

so it's 40-year old,

and I don't cook
the way I did 40 years ago.

But the way I did an egg white,
or sharpen a knife,

or bone out a chicken,
to give you a sense;

it is that kind of permanence,
that kind of continuity,

that, you learn in the kitchen;

to be first a craftsman.

And it's very difficult,
very often, to explain in words

something that you can show --

It's easier to show --

than to explain

in words.

You can do that to chocolate as well.

You'd do that at exactly
the right temperature.

And we used to

put the butter in
a little container, that on top,

and now you can charge 20 bucks for it.

(Laughter)

Put that in water that's cold,
so we could do whatever.

(Applause)

Thank you, Titine.

For me, first you have to be a craftsman.

You have to be a craftsman, and is
that repeat, and repeat, and repeat,

that is very important.

Just like

you can spend a year, two years,
in a studio in art school

and learn the law of perspective,
it is perfectly fine,

and you learn how to mix
yellow and blue to make green,

you know what to do with your thumb,
with your spatula, with the brush;

then you can come out and
do one painting after another.

Does that make you a chef? Not really.

But you're by then, a good craftsman,
and that's very important.

You have, first, to know your trade,

whether you are

a shoemaker, or a cabinet maker
- like my father -

first, you know your trade.

So, those things that we boned out

I learned, as I said, as a child.

And then, I learned this from --

I don't remember where I learn that but --

when you learn something
you learn it a certain way

and after a while, you don't remember
where it comes from,

and you do it your own way, eventually.

To do a type of lollipop
like that, as we used to --

So, those techniques, as I said,
first make you a craftsman,

and if you are a good craftsman,
then you can run a restaurant.

There are about 20,000 restaurants in NY

and 100 are well known, maybe 200,
maybe 300, maybe 400 even,

but what happen to the 19,500
is that they are run by artisans,

people who know how to work properly,

and this is the only way if you become,
in my opinion, a good craftsman,

if you have that type of knowledge,
then you can express yourself.

This is half of yourself,

the other half has to do with talent.

If you have talent --

If you happen to have talent,

by this I mean, if you have taste,

if you have a bit of a vision,

if you have a little bit of creativity,

then you can express yourself,

you now have the means in your hands
to express yourself,

if you've gone through those techniques.

You have to repeat
those techniques, as I said,

long enough so that,
you can afford to forget it after.

Here we are,
half of this, now the filet.

(Claudine) If you have any questions
you should shout them out,

it's a good opportunity.

(Claudine) There's going to be a test.

(Laughter)

(Jacques) This way.

There's my carcass.

Now, the tip of the filet,
you remove it here.

This one here --

So, you free your hand
by learning those techniques

and as I said, you can now

think in term of texture,
in term of other things

because, as I said, you free your hand
by repeating and repeating.

Now, this is one part of yourself,

half of yourself is there,
it's the craftsman;

the other part of yourself

now depend on whether
you have talent or not,

and even if you have
a little bit of talent, not too much,

you can still run a little restaurant
by being a good technician.

If you have a lot of talent,
then you can take it further.

Not all the chefs are René Redzepi,

or David Chang,

or José Andrés --

Here we are.

(Applause) (Cheers)

(Jacques) At that point
you really don't want to cut the bone

because the skin will shrink
all over the place so, we break it.

And you know, the interesting part
is that if you carve in the dining room,

or if you do a quail
or a pheasant or a goose,

the morphology is the same.

If you cut a chicken
in pieces to do a skew,

you cut exactly in the sample place,
at the shoulder joint, at the hip joint --

Okay.

Now, you have to be very proud
of what you're doing

but you also have to be humble
to a certain extend

because there's always someone

who can think with
more creativity than you are,

who can think harder than you do.

We're all limited
by the extent of our taste

and they are different,

and sometimes, you have people,

like a food critic, who doesn't
really know how to cook

but maybe who can
taste better than you do.

We fail on that and sometimes
it's not easy to take,

but that's the way it is.

For me, a young chef should work
with a good chef, in a good place,

and at that point your aim is
to try to visualize what that chef does.

If she or he works with you,
then you try to see --

Yeah, that's where there are no bones --

a little bit here --

you try to see the food through
his or her sense of aesthetic,

their sense of taste,

and even if it doesn't coincide with you,

most of the time it won't coincide

with your sense of taste
or your sense of aesthetic,

but it doesn't
really matter at that point,

you have to look at it through that,

and you do it for a year or two,

then you work with another chef
for a year or two,

and again looking at things
through a different point of view,

different sense of aesthetic,

and then maybe with a third one
a few more times --

then, at some point,
you're going to give it back.

You're going to give it back,

and now you're going to filter it
through your sense of taste,

through your sense of aesthetic,

that's how it works

because ultimately, at some point,
you cannot escape yourself,

you are who you are, and that's the way
how you are going to do it.

It's always a bit of a paradox for me

because I work with young chefs
like at Boston University

and everyone wants to do
something special and different.

I do a class which I call a perfect meal,

which is a roast chicken,
a bowl of potatoes and a salad.

It used to be done this way:

They all go to the stove
to do the same type of things

and I say, "Don't try to blew my mind
because I know that I have 12 people here,

I'm going to have 12 different chicken."

Because that's the way it is,

you don't really have to torture yourself
to be different, you are different,

there's no way that you can
do exactly the same thing

than the person next to you.

This is a good beef stuffing
- not really - but

just to give you an idea.

Okay, Titine --

So, we have our galantine,
that is if we poach it,

and our ballotine if we roast it.

Thank you.

So, we put it this way --

(Claudine) No questions?

(Jacques) Okay.

(Jacques) Very quiet here.

(Claudine) I know.

(Claudine) Do you want some wine?

(Jacques) Ah, my daughter knows me --

(Laughter)

(Jacques) Our galantine, so --

(Applause)

(Jacques) Up to that point --

(Claudine) You have five minutes --

(Jacques) Oh yeah, okay.

The technique to do something
remain fairly constant,

but at that point
this is what it'll change:

when you're happy with the way
you cook it, what you do with it,

the seasoning and all of that
become your own.

Okay.

- (Jacques) Pepper, Titine?
- (Claudine) Yeah.

(Jacques) That's your salt --

(Pepper mill grinding)

(Claudine) Everybody needs one of me
in your kitchen, you all need me --

(Laughter)

(Jacques) Now I cook with
my granddaughter as well.

(Claudine) She's 12.

(Jacques) Yes --

when I did a television show
with Claudine many years ago --

(Jacques) Why did you
give me two of those?

(Claudine) I offered
whatever you want it --

(Jacques) Okay, good.

(Jacques) I learned how to make
three different types of omelettes.

A flat omelette, called à la piperade

or omelette basquaise and so forth --

Western omelette, as it's called the US,

and then, we did an omelette
that my mother would do

with very large curd, brown --

and then we did a more
classic omelette - like this one -

and for those we want to make
very small curds, like scramble egg.

Now, there are three different
types of omelettes that I would do,

one is not better than the other,
it's just different.

A few weeks ago,
I did that for a television

who came to my house and wanted me
to do the three types of omelettes,

which I did --

and then they realized they only have
a minute and a half when they edited,

so they just took some stuff
from one omelette to the other,

to the other, and mix
the whole thing together --

(Laughter)

(Jacques) What a waste!

So, here you bring it back here,

so that you're now rolling
really a carpet --

so you're just bringing one lid --

one lid here and a half moon --

nice half moon --

bring that here --

bring the other lid on top --

this is the time
when you want to stuff it,

change hands --

and then that omelette should be --

to the edge --

Ooooh!

The chef in my kitchen --

(Applause)

The chef in my kitchen
would have seen the pleads on top

and he would have done some reference
to the behind of his grandmother --

(Laughter)

As you see, it should be pale
right on top, very creamy,

very soft inside, like scramble eggs,

and that's what a classic omelette is.

Yes, Claudine?

(Claudine) Yes, papa!

(Jacques) Will you drink to that?

(Claudine) I will!

(Jacques) Thank you very much!

(Applause) (Cheers)

(Claudine) Whatever
you take away from here, I hope --

and it's so wonderful that
you're taking the time to be here,

I hope you share
your knowledge with everyone

because that's how the craft continues,

that's how our trade continues,
that's how it gets better.

(Jacques) Yeah, I realized quite well,
all of you know those techniques,

some better than me...
yet, I thank you for coming

and listening to me, but for me
the permanence is there,

to teach, to explain and to show
at least the basic structure,

and at that point, when you have
that type of manual dexterity

or technical knowledge,

then you can run a kitchen quite well.

As I said, if you happen to have talent,

then you bring it to a another level

and, like the person who works
in a studio for a couple of years,

after that, you know how
to mix all your paintings,

and know what you can do with a brush,

you step outside you do
one painting after another --

Does that make you an artist?

Not really, at that point
you're a good craftsman.

If, however, you have talent,

now you have the means in your hands
to express that talent,

to take it somewhere.

As I said, you do have to
transcend that level

at which you have to concentrate
on the manual task that you're at.

You see a beginner coming around
and you say: "Do you have any parsley?"

and he says: "Don't disturb me,
someone is slicing something."

You have to transcend that level
so you don't have to think about it,

things that are there,
so you can think in terms of texture,

combination of ingredients,
or things like these.

Right, Titine?

(Claudine) Right.
Do you have any questions?

(Jacques) I think I was there
at one and a half minute,

now I'm back to seven minutes?

(Laughter)

(Claudine) Okay!

(Jacques) Yes --

Any questions?

No questions? Yes, sir?

(Audience comments)

(Claudine) Oh, yeah.
(Jacques) Do I know that man here?

(Claudine) I gave him 20 bucks before
to say that. Thank you, Michelle!

(Claudine blows a kiss)

(Jacques) Thank you, Michelle... yes!

I know that there are great,
fantastic chefs here --

we had an extraordinary,
extraordinary meal at Noma,

I'm gratified to be here,

I know I'm the oldest of the group

and now that I've passed 80 years old
I'm supposed to be wise.

I don't think that I'm wiser
than when I was 30 years old

but this is what happens when you get old.

You think I'm wise, Claudine?

- (Claudine) Yes, yes, of course, you are!
- (Jacques) Ok, that's a good daughter.

(Laughter)

(Jacques) Now I'm doing a show
with my granddaughter, Shorey,

which we called "Lesson of a grandfather".

So, little things,
even how to set up a table,

eat properly at the table or --

But no, not enjoying wine yet.

(Claudine) No, no, no wine yet,
it's just to give us show, so --

(Laughter)

(Claudine) Yes, sir?

(Audience comments)

It's a very interesting question.
Do you want to repeat the question?

(Claudine) The question is
how are the kitchens today

different than the kitchens
that my father was an apprentice in.

Pretty dramatic?

(Jacques) Yes, well, no... but, yes!

(Laughter)

There is a permanence there,
the point is that

you still have to come on time,

you still have to be ready to work,

you still work in a place which is
very structured, very disciplined,

like in the army,

you don't say, "Yes, captain!",
but you say, "Yes, chef!",

it's about the same thing
and you have to --

you have to, so that
the kitchen works properly.

You're a member of a team,

and if you're late or don't show up
to be part of that team,

you're going to destroy the structure,

so that remains the same.

That being said, when I was a kid,

we would never up there
to cut a tomato --

we only cut it in one direction,

we'd never alternate to the other side
when I worked at the Plaza and in Paris,

or whatever in the fifties.

Now, there's a much greater deal

and innovation is part of yourself too.

And, of course, we,
up to 20-30 years ago --

I've been in the kitchen 65-67 years --

the cook were at the bottom
of the social scale.

Any good mother would have wanted
her child to marry a doctor, an architect,

certainly not a cook.

Now we are genius! I don't know
exactly what happened but --

this is great, this is terrific,
so it's quite different.

- (Claudine) Papa, he has a question.
- (Jacques) Yes, sir.

- (René) I have a question for you.
- (Jacques) Yes.

(René) You said you're
more than 80, right?

(Jacques) Yes.

(René) I'm 39.

I think a lot of cooks
that deal with this --

what can I say, like, guilt, sometimes --

they feel like they should be yearning
for something in the past,

that in the past
things were better, kind of --

Can you please tell us

how it used to be in the kitchen

and whether you think
the life in the kitchen is better today,

and actually, do you think
that food has become better

- and is becoming better?
- (Jacques) Yes.

(René) Or, was it better
back in the old days?

No, it is better,
there's a cycle also --

certainly as I said, my mother used
only organic products too

but that's what we have,
we didn't have anything else,

so we're going back to that,
which is a great thing, of course,

to be in communion with the Earth

and in communion to where you work,

and be local, and so forth.

Yes, absolutely.

The cooks now still have

the same structure
that we used to have

but you have much more freedom
than we ever had before.

Certainly, I got kicked in the rear end
a few times by my chefs,

I mean it was the type of things
that it was supposed at that time --

it was supposed to be difficult,

you have to go to
a rite of passage and all of that,

which is not really necessary,

you don't need to be yelled at --

I've seen a lot of show on television,
certainly, reality show,

and the kitchen is like mayhem and
the chef is yelling all over the place.

This is not conducive
to good work, certainly.

There's a great deal of love, a great deal
of yourself that you put in that food,

and the yelling at other people,
the lack of respect,

those things are not conducive,
in my opinion, to learning well

and teaching people how to cook.

At a certain age, when I was 12-13,
the best way of learning

was probably through
that kind of osmotic way:

you look, you repeat,
you look, you repeat, and so forth.

We passed that level now.

Chefs come from cooking schools,

they come out from college
when they are older,

they want to know how to do it,
they want us to explain,

so it's a different way of teaching
than what we're used to;

and people are much more in a hurry
than how we were too;

we had at least three other apprenticeship
without paid or anything,

so, you know, there are
six apprentices in front of you --

so, this is much better now.

A much greater respect for the chef,
for what we do for our tradition,

and this is why, I mean,
we're here today --

- Yes?
- (Claudine) Wrap it up.

(Jacques) Wrap it up. Yes, ma'm, okay.
But I still see one minute --

(Claudine) Trust me.

(Jacques) I don't know whether
that's the right answer to your question,

or whether I was not
specific enough but --

(René) Can you just say in a yes or no?

(Laughter)

(Claudine) You'll be the first one
to ever get that answer, if it's possible.

- (René) If you look back when you were 30
- (Jacques) Right --

(René) and you look at kitchens
and chefs and cooking now,

do you believe that is better now?

(Jacques) Oh yes, absolutely,
no question at all.

- (René) Thank you so much!
- (Jacques) No question at all!

(Applause)

(Claudine) Thank you, of course,
to the MAD team for working there,

took us off to the extend
that I find extraordinary

and rather inspiring so,

I hope that everyone feels
really good about the work here,

but, of course, thanks to all of you
for caring so much about what we do

and about what you do
and bringing it to the next level.

We hope you have a wonderful,
wonderful couple of days.

- Thank you!
- (Jacques) We are!

And drink a lot of wine!
Thank you!

(Applause) (Cheers)

My daughter, Claudine!

- (Jacques) Jose is not here?
- (René) He's here --

(Jacques) Okay. Everything I know,
I learned from him, you know.

(Laughter)

English subtitles by Jenny Lam-Chowdhury