Death Penalty & Anti Death Penalty: Is There Middle Ground?

There was a woman who
set her husband on fire killed him

for raping her seven-year-old daughter
She found him, murdered him

And yes she deserves the death penalty

What?!

♪ (intro music) ♪

(Off-screen):
If you support the death penalty

Please take the light to the left

If you do not support the death penalty
Take the light to the right

First statement step forward if you agree

If you do not agree

If it is not true for you
stay exactly where you are

Having a death penalty
deters people from committing crimes

(Genesta): I don't know that
any regular human, the average human

which is who we're speaking about
would risk their life

when that survival instinct is
so incredibly ingrained and so strong

(Dillon): That's the foundation
of my entire argument

The reason why
I stay on the left hand side

not because I feel that
Capital punishment should be handed out

dished out to everyone
that commits a crime

No, I'm talking about the idea

that it in my opinion
capital punishment is a deterrent

It influences the way people behave
look at Michigan, Michigan abolished

Capital punishment in 1858

Look at the crime rate in Michigan now
(Khalil): Ridiculous

So let me ask you guys
your child grabs a vase purposely

You see them grab the vase,
smash it on the ground

Look you dead in the eye
Are they deserving of a punishment?

(Khalil, Omar): Yes

(Dillon): Are they aware of their actions?
(Genesta): They're 4 years old!

(Dillon): Exactly

They looked you right in the eye

(Khalil):
So they know what they did was wrong

(Genesta): They're 4 years old

(Omar): They know what they're doing wrong
It's like a challenge

they're gonna continue
to do the same thing over and over

(Genesta): What if I told you

that instead of punishing that child
you spoke to that child

people though might not have
all the information in the way

that a 4 year old
doesn't have all the information

(Off-screen): Disagreers

(Sean): I really don't remember
any time someone was like

you know, I really want to kill someone
but that death penalty man

No, it just doesn't make sense to me
that that's a deterrent

if anything a human connection to someone
like to themselves or their family

or someone they care about has been
the biggest deterrent in my idea

Of course

(Off-screen): Anyone can be
rehabilitated back into society

Absolutely, absolutely y'all.
Here's the thing. Here's the thing

I think this is probably the most
hippie part about my whole thinking is

that unending optimism for people that
I know better than to give up on someone

(Genesta): I agreed
with the first half of the sentence

but not the second in that
I think anybody can be rehabilitated

That doesn't mean that
they're going back into society

There are options for somebody to

live a full complete life
and not be a danger to society

(Omar): You also have to look at it
with child molestation cases

How're you gonna sentence someone
that did some crime like that

That's so heinous

it's happened many times
where they release these people constantly

and they're still doing the same thing

No matter how much
you try to rehabilitate someone

they also have to
want to be rehabilitated in order for that

(Sean): We're assuming people
don't want to be rehabilitated

That's my whole point

if you can believe that people don't
want to be rehabilitated though

you have to also believe the possibility
that they could redeem themselves

and do something amazing
after that rehabilitation happens

For those people that are just like

past rehabilitation are they
deserving of death?

Is that what we've come to?

(Khalil): It really depends on again
what the circumstances, what this crime is

(Sean): But that's where we get into

who are we to say
who's deserving or not

We need to actually know their
entire story and who they are as a person

their upbringing
what got them into that situation

their mental stability
all of those things

can be taken more in consideration

But that goes to say
once you read their book

you're gonna be empathetic
and it's clear that they've taken--

You can't have empathy when families
have lost their kids due to those--

(Sean): That's the entire
most important time to have empathy

(Genesta):Yes

That's the whole point

is when a family's going through that
to understand

what the family's going through
on top of what the person went through

(Off-screen):
Everyone deserves a second chance

(Omar): Personally I don't think
everybody deserves a second chance

but I do believe that
there are people who do deserve it

so it just depends again

like I was mentioning earlier depends on

what kind of crime they're committing
if they killed somebody

I don't believe that they
deserve a second chance

but if they did a lesser crime like
they're stealing something from a store

like candy or something like that
or a TV or a bike

I do believe that they
deserve a second chance

(Sean): Here's the thing for me
this is why it gets hypocritical to me

in this kind of discussion
where we all think about the other person

of the victim or something like that in
terms of second chances

But the whole biggest idea where we
really confront this idea is if it was us

Would I want a second chance
if I knew I messed up on something

however heinous or big it was
or howsoever small it was

I want that second chance for me
and for at least my family and friends

That's the least I want so
that's why I know it applies to everyone

(Genesta): I think it depends on
what the second chance is

that doesn't mean that there is
absolute reentry into society

a second chance often means
giving someone their life

(Austin): Let's just say
a horrendous crime

they had someone raped
then burned someone alive

It's a horrendous crime

To just let them out into society
that's too much of a second chance

but from what within the confines of
prison for such a heinous act

That you do get a little bit more

(Dillon): Only one

Just want to go back to statement
People deserve chances

does every single person deserve
a second chance?

And my opinion no
because maybe

what the crime that they committed
then you're talking about

I would love to have the
chance to have a second chance

There's a difference between
I would love to have it and I deserve it

I think I'm a little confused about
where it is that this line is drawn

because that makes the difference
between a second chance

between life and death
between consideration and no consideration

I think I think it does start with

obviously the crime that you commit
there is a difference between

intentionally and unintentionally

OK so what if I put
a pillow over a woman's face

versus if I chop her up?

(All begin speaking)

So ending someone's life
that is the height of violence

(Dillon): If it was calculated

I don't think you deserve a second chance
in my opinion for a crime like that

No I don't care
I've no remorse

I've no mercy
for anyone who kills anyone

I spoke about this the other day

There was a woman who
set her husband on fire

killed him for raping
her 7 year old daughter

She found him
murdered him

That was not self-defense
It was premeditated

(Dillon): That's revenge

(Khalil): Yes and yes and yes
she deserves the death penalty

What?!

(Khalil):
Listen she can go through the legal--

I don't care how much it hurts
I understand that... but I don't--

you still need to go through
the legal process like everybody else

you don't take it into
your own hands to go and--

(Genesta): So you guys talk about
the death penalty like its global justice

like you're doing something for the world
(Khalil): You are

like you are removing a threat

But that woman was doing
some global justice if I ever heard it

(Khalil):
that was not her right to do though

that's not how it works

(Genesta): You say that
a jury of your peers that we as citizens

we as the constituency
we have that right then

what because we have numbers
because we have some process

A death penalty is
a state sanctioned homicide

it still is a homicide

but it is decided by multiple people
at that point--

(Sean):
Here's the thing I think we need to go

above the legal system in this dialogue
because it was legal to have slaves

(Dillon): Yeah exactly
(All begin to talk)

We'd have to go beyond this and

that's when our ideas transcend
what we're talking about

(Off-screen):
If someone

genuinely apologizes for a crime
their punishment should be reduced

(Sean): Um, duh
(laughter/inaudible)

The thing is like of course
it's the hardest part of this concept

This idea is how do you judge

someone's genuine authenticity
in their apologeticness right?

I specifically remember a case
Stanley Tookie Williams this guy

really convinced me that
he was apologetic for his crime

and the thing was
he believed he didn't commit the crime

He was innocent of the crime

but he was still apologetic for
his past crimes that he'd done in his life

and the things that
he did get convicted for

so when I saw that he made
a children's book

about preventing other kids from
actually ending up where he ended up

as a gang member
and leader of the Crips I believe

That was enough for me
where he's actually going out of his way

to prevent future crime from
happening for other people

I'm like, all right
I accept your apology man

I accept that big time

(Omar):
There's no way of validating apology

I mean like

how do you know if they're apologizing
they're lying, you know?

That happens a lot
I mean

they're people who seem so genuine
and behind their eyes

they're not truthful
(Khalil): Yeah you don't know

Well let's just say gang on gang violence
just say that a gang member

did a hit on a house of
an opposing gang member and their family

and let's say
while shooting he killed three people

Just say eventually he did apologize

It doesn't matter

He still killed someone and he should
still serve a life sentence with it

(Sean): What if this person did so much
to redeem themselves or account for that

and actually showed
their genuine apologeticness behind--

(Austin): I do not care
(Sean): You don't care

(Austin): I don't care
(Sean): Gosh, OK

They committed murder
they get life in prison

No death penalty

they get life

(Sean): So if they became
Mother Teresa after this

(Austin): No, nope
They get to see their life behind bars

(Genesta):
I think it's important to consider

the stress that this gentleman is under

he's in a gang lifestyle
in a gang environment

Where he's gonna get his ass beat if
he does not go make this hit

even in military crimes
(Austin): Yep

Like in world war II
all those people that followed orders

Yes, they were guilty of those crimes

(Austin): There are people who opposed

or people who tried to within Hitler's
own group tried to kill Hitler

You still as an individual
chose to do an action

(Genesta):
You can't count on somebody else to

have courage in the capacity that you do
You can't count on

somebody to be as intelligent
or as brave as you are

(Omar): if we just allow someone

to skirt by we're giving a bad example
to everybody else in society

they're gonna think
they can just repeat the same thing

and they're gonna get away with it

(Off-screen): I believe that anyone
can forgive anyone given enough time

(Sean): I just want to sit on this side
can I do that?

(Khalil):
I'll sit right here this time

(Sean): I mean once I read a story about

a mother that forgave
the killer of her child

I'm like okay I believe in it

I believe anything is possible now

(Off-screen):
Imagine your mother for a second

(Sean): oh s***e

(Off-screen):
If someone were to kill your mother

Would you be able to forgive that person

No

(Sean): Eventually
It'd be hard

(Khalil):
The question was eventually with time

I'm gonna say yes with it sure with time

Unless you've really experienced
something like that

You won't know yourself really

You only know what you feel right now

but unless you were in that motion
where it did happen

that mentality
you don't know

(Sean): Way to traumatize people
with that question

(Khalil): Oh for real

(Dillon): Yeah, first of all guys
asking that question about your mother

I applaud you for even giving
the consideration to forgive that person

For myself personally
if something like that did happen my mom

I would find it so hard for myself to
forgive that person who committed that act

knowing that he has destroyed my life

also destroyed our family's lives

(Austin):
I think I would eventually forgive

But I know there's people out there
who would always hold a grudge

I can't justify someone killing my mother

I mean I can't see myself
forgiving someone like that

(Sean): I heard a great concept about

immediately forgiving someone and
finding the reasons to forgive them later

That actually helped me
find peace of mind knowing

that that's the guaranteed like
where I should end up anyway, you know

(Off-screen):
So back to this concept of our own mothers

if my mother were to commit murder

I would vouch for her
to receive capital punishment

I can't you know
I can't sit here and be a hypocrite

And say that I'm for capital punishment

if my own mother would
commit a crime as so heinous

I would be for even for her

(Khalil): The law applies to everyone

(Omar): Even my own mother

(Khalil): Yeah, if law enforcement
has to abide by the law

if us citizens have to abide by the law

yeah mom should too

(Sean):
This is a very a troubling thing for me

that anybody walked up to these chairs

Because one it's something that

I questioned morally
and emotionally about our society

that we're not already crying

or feeling some kind of feeling about
our own mother being on death row

because now we can easily imagine
if we take it one more step further

that every single person on death row

is somebody's mother
or father or sister or brother

We can't escape that we'll be sad

but at the same time they committed
a crime and they have to pay for it

That's it for you though?

(Austin): Why does it have to be
the death penalty though?

(Omar): Why would I be
for the death penalty in the first place?

on other crimes

sex offenders

What would it be for and what if
they were a sex offender themselves

that doesn't exclude them
because they're my parents

(Off-screen): I am afraid that
there are innocent people on death row

(Dillon): I think we can all agree.

(Genesta): Yep. Yeah.

(Dillon): There have been incidences.
(Genesta): There's been many cases

There could be more too

(Austin): The current count
I believe ever since President Carter

is a hundred people have been
found not guilty due to

basically witnesses lying
DNA and other such things

so a hundred people is not a small amount

(Sean): Yeah if one person is innocent

that's enough for me
to not trust the legal system

and on top of that in terms of
corruption, racism

all these kinds of things
that affect our whole legal system

I don't know why it's taboo to say that

We need to admit that more
and it's gonna be okay

like let's admit it and move forward

♪ (outro music) ♪

Can I just hug you?

(Omar): Yeah
(general laughter)

(Sean): How is your mom?
(Omar): She's good

(Sean): And how's your mom doing?
(Khalil): She's chillin'

(Off-screen): That's a wrap
Good job guys

(cast claps)

Hey guys this is Jason from Jubilee

We hope you enjoyed another
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