There was a woman who
set her husband on fire killed him
for raping her seven-year-old daughter
She found him, murdered him
And yes she deserves the death penalty
What?!
♪ (intro music) ♪
(Off-screen):
If you support the death penalty
Please take the light to the left
If you do not support the death penalty
Take the light to the right
First statement step forward if you agree
If you do not agree
If it is not true for you
stay exactly where you are
Having a death penalty
deters people from committing crimes
(Genesta): I don't know that
any regular human, the average human
which is who we're speaking about
would risk their life
when that survival instinct is
so incredibly ingrained and so strong
(Dillon): That's the foundation
of my entire argument
The reason why
I stay on the left hand side
not because I feel that
Capital punishment should be handed out
dished out to everyone
that commits a crime
No, I'm talking about the idea
that it in my opinion
capital punishment is a deterrent
It influences the way people behave
look at Michigan, Michigan abolished
Capital punishment in 1858
Look at the crime rate in Michigan now
(Khalil): Ridiculous
So let me ask you guys
your child grabs a vase purposely
You see them grab the vase,
smash it on the ground
Look you dead in the eye
Are they deserving of a punishment?
(Khalil, Omar): Yes
(Dillon): Are they aware of their actions?
(Genesta): They're 4 years old!
(Dillon): Exactly
They looked you right in the eye
(Khalil):
So they know what they did was wrong
(Genesta): They're 4 years old
(Omar): They know what they're doing wrong
It's like a challenge
they're gonna continue
to do the same thing over and over
(Genesta): What if I told you
that instead of punishing that child
you spoke to that child
people though might not have
all the information in the way
that a 4 year old
doesn't have all the information
(Off-screen): Disagreers
(Sean): I really don't remember
any time someone was like
you know, I really want to kill someone
but that death penalty man
No, it just doesn't make sense to me
that that's a deterrent
if anything a human connection to someone
like to themselves or their family
or someone they care about has been
the biggest deterrent in my idea
Of course
(Off-screen): Anyone can be
rehabilitated back into society
Absolutely, absolutely y'all.
Here's the thing. Here's the thing
I think this is probably the most
hippie part about my whole thinking is
that unending optimism for people that
I know better than to give up on someone
(Genesta): I agreed
with the first half of the sentence
but not the second in that
I think anybody can be rehabilitated
That doesn't mean that
they're going back into society
There are options for somebody to
live a full complete life
and not be a danger to society
(Omar): You also have to look at it
with child molestation cases
How're you gonna sentence someone
that did some crime like that
That's so heinous
it's happened many times
where they release these people constantly
and they're still doing the same thing
No matter how much
you try to rehabilitate someone
they also have to
want to be rehabilitated in order for that
(Sean): We're assuming people
don't want to be rehabilitated
That's my whole point
if you can believe that people don't
want to be rehabilitated though
you have to also believe the possibility
that they could redeem themselves
and do something amazing
after that rehabilitation happens
For those people that are just like
past rehabilitation are they
deserving of death?
Is that what we've come to?
(Khalil): It really depends on again
what the circumstances, what this crime is
(Sean): But that's where we get into
who are we to say
who's deserving or not
We need to actually know their
entire story and who they are as a person
their upbringing
what got them into that situation
their mental stability
all of those things
can be taken more in consideration
But that goes to say
once you read their book
you're gonna be empathetic
and it's clear that they've taken--
You can't have empathy when families
have lost their kids due to those--
(Sean): That's the entire
most important time to have empathy
(Genesta):Yes
That's the whole point
is when a family's going through that
to understand
what the family's going through
on top of what the person went through
(Off-screen):
Everyone deserves a second chance
(Omar): Personally I don't think
everybody deserves a second chance
but I do believe that
there are people who do deserve it
so it just depends again
like I was mentioning earlier depends on
what kind of crime they're committing
if they killed somebody
I don't believe that they
deserve a second chance
but if they did a lesser crime like
they're stealing something from a store
like candy or something like that
or a TV or a bike
I do believe that they
deserve a second chance
(Sean): Here's the thing for me
this is why it gets hypocritical to me
in this kind of discussion
where we all think about the other person
of the victim or something like that in
terms of second chances
But the whole biggest idea where we
really confront this idea is if it was us
Would I want a second chance
if I knew I messed up on something
however heinous or big it was
or howsoever small it was
I want that second chance for me
and for at least my family and friends
That's the least I want so
that's why I know it applies to everyone
(Genesta): I think it depends on
what the second chance is
that doesn't mean that there is
absolute reentry into society
a second chance often means
giving someone their life
(Austin): Let's just say
a horrendous crime
they had someone raped
then burned someone alive
It's a horrendous crime
To just let them out into society
that's too much of a second chance
but from what within the confines of
prison for such a heinous act
That you do get a little bit more
(Dillon): Only one
Just want to go back to statement
People deserve chances
does every single person deserve
a second chance?
And my opinion no
because maybe
what the crime that they committed
then you're talking about
I would love to have the
chance to have a second chance
There's a difference between
I would love to have it and I deserve it
I think I'm a little confused about
where it is that this line is drawn
because that makes the difference
between a second chance
between life and death
between consideration and no consideration
I think I think it does start with
obviously the crime that you commit
there is a difference between
intentionally and unintentionally
OK so what if I put
a pillow over a woman's face
versus if I chop her up?
(All begin speaking)
So ending someone's life
that is the height of violence
(Dillon): If it was calculated
I don't think you deserve a second chance
in my opinion for a crime like that
No I don't care
I've no remorse
I've no mercy
for anyone who kills anyone
I spoke about this the other day
There was a woman who
set her husband on fire
killed him for raping
her 7 year old daughter
She found him
murdered him
That was not self-defense
It was premeditated
(Dillon): That's revenge
(Khalil): Yes and yes and yes
she deserves the death penalty
What?!
(Khalil):
Listen she can go through the legal--
I don't care how much it hurts
I understand that... but I don't--
you still need to go through
the legal process like everybody else
you don't take it into
your own hands to go and--
(Genesta): So you guys talk about
the death penalty like its global justice
like you're doing something for the world
(Khalil): You are
like you are removing a threat
But that woman was doing
some global justice if I ever heard it
(Khalil):
that was not her right to do though
that's not how it works
(Genesta): You say that
a jury of your peers that we as citizens
we as the constituency
we have that right then
what because we have numbers
because we have some process
A death penalty is
a state sanctioned homicide
it still is a homicide
but it is decided by multiple people
at that point--
(Sean):
Here's the thing I think we need to go
above the legal system in this dialogue
because it was legal to have slaves
(Dillon): Yeah exactly
(All begin to talk)
We'd have to go beyond this and
that's when our ideas transcend
what we're talking about
(Off-screen):
If someone
genuinely apologizes for a crime
their punishment should be reduced
(Sean): Um, duh
(laughter/inaudible)
The thing is like of course
it's the hardest part of this concept
This idea is how do you judge
someone's genuine authenticity
in their apologeticness right?
I specifically remember a case
Stanley Tookie Williams this guy
really convinced me that
he was apologetic for his crime
and the thing was
he believed he didn't commit the crime
He was innocent of the crime
but he was still apologetic for
his past crimes that he'd done in his life
and the things that
he did get convicted for
so when I saw that he made
a children's book
about preventing other kids from
actually ending up where he ended up
as a gang member
and leader of the Crips I believe
That was enough for me
where he's actually going out of his way
to prevent future crime from
happening for other people
I'm like, all right
I accept your apology man
I accept that big time
(Omar):
There's no way of validating apology
I mean like
how do you know if they're apologizing
they're lying, you know?
That happens a lot
I mean
they're people who seem so genuine
and behind their eyes
they're not truthful
(Khalil): Yeah you don't know
Well let's just say gang on gang violence
just say that a gang member
did a hit on a house of
an opposing gang member and their family
and let's say
while shooting he killed three people
Just say eventually he did apologize
It doesn't matter
He still killed someone and he should
still serve a life sentence with it
(Sean): What if this person did so much
to redeem themselves or account for that
and actually showed
their genuine apologeticness behind--
(Austin): I do not care
(Sean): You don't care
(Austin): I don't care
(Sean): Gosh, OK
They committed murder
they get life in prison
No death penalty
they get life
(Sean): So if they became
Mother Teresa after this
(Austin): No, nope
They get to see their life behind bars
(Genesta):
I think it's important to consider
the stress that this gentleman is under
he's in a gang lifestyle
in a gang environment
Where he's gonna get his ass beat if
he does not go make this hit
even in military crimes
(Austin): Yep
Like in world war II
all those people that followed orders
Yes, they were guilty of those crimes
(Austin): There are people who opposed
or people who tried to within Hitler's
own group tried to kill Hitler
You still as an individual
chose to do an action
(Genesta):
You can't count on somebody else to
have courage in the capacity that you do
You can't count on
somebody to be as intelligent
or as brave as you are
(Omar): if we just allow someone
to skirt by we're giving a bad example
to everybody else in society
they're gonna think
they can just repeat the same thing
and they're gonna get away with it
(Off-screen): I believe that anyone
can forgive anyone given enough time
(Sean): I just want to sit on this side
can I do that?
(Khalil):
I'll sit right here this time
(Sean): I mean once I read a story about
a mother that forgave
the killer of her child
I'm like okay I believe in it
I believe anything is possible now
(Off-screen):
Imagine your mother for a second
(Sean): oh s***e
(Off-screen):
If someone were to kill your mother
Would you be able to forgive that person
No
(Sean): Eventually
It'd be hard
(Khalil):
The question was eventually with time
I'm gonna say yes with it sure with time
Unless you've really experienced
something like that
You won't know yourself really
You only know what you feel right now
but unless you were in that motion
where it did happen
that mentality
you don't know
(Sean): Way to traumatize people
with that question
(Khalil): Oh for real
(Dillon): Yeah, first of all guys
asking that question about your mother
I applaud you for even giving
the consideration to forgive that person
For myself personally
if something like that did happen my mom
I would find it so hard for myself to
forgive that person who committed that act
knowing that he has destroyed my life
also destroyed our family's lives
(Austin):
I think I would eventually forgive
But I know there's people out there
who would always hold a grudge
I can't justify someone killing my mother
I mean I can't see myself
forgiving someone like that
(Sean): I heard a great concept about
immediately forgiving someone and
finding the reasons to forgive them later
That actually helped me
find peace of mind knowing
that that's the guaranteed like
where I should end up anyway, you know
(Off-screen):
So back to this concept of our own mothers
if my mother were to commit murder
I would vouch for her
to receive capital punishment
I can't you know
I can't sit here and be a hypocrite
And say that I'm for capital punishment
if my own mother would
commit a crime as so heinous
I would be for even for her
(Khalil): The law applies to everyone
(Omar): Even my own mother
(Khalil): Yeah, if law enforcement
has to abide by the law
if us citizens have to abide by the law
yeah mom should too
(Sean):
This is a very a troubling thing for me
that anybody walked up to these chairs
Because one it's something that
I questioned morally
and emotionally about our society
that we're not already crying
or feeling some kind of feeling about
our own mother being on death row
because now we can easily imagine
if we take it one more step further
that every single person on death row
is somebody's mother
or father or sister or brother
We can't escape that we'll be sad
but at the same time they committed
a crime and they have to pay for it
That's it for you though?
(Austin): Why does it have to be
the death penalty though?
(Omar): Why would I be
for the death penalty in the first place?
on other crimes
sex offenders
What would it be for and what if
they were a sex offender themselves
that doesn't exclude them
because they're my parents
(Off-screen): I am afraid that
there are innocent people on death row
(Dillon): I think we can all agree.
(Genesta): Yep. Yeah.
(Dillon): There have been incidences.
(Genesta): There's been many cases
There could be more too
(Austin): The current count
I believe ever since President Carter
is a hundred people have been
found not guilty due to
basically witnesses lying
DNA and other such things
so a hundred people is not a small amount
(Sean): Yeah if one person is innocent
that's enough for me
to not trust the legal system
and on top of that in terms of
corruption, racism
all these kinds of things
that affect our whole legal system
I don't know why it's taboo to say that
We need to admit that more
and it's gonna be okay
like let's admit it and move forward
♪ (outro music) ♪
Can I just hug you?
(Omar): Yeah
(general laughter)
(Sean): How is your mom?
(Omar): She's good
(Sean): And how's your mom doing?
(Khalil): She's chillin'
(Off-screen): That's a wrap
Good job guys
(cast claps)
Hey guys this is Jason from Jubilee
We hope you enjoyed another
wonderful episode of middle ground
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