There was a woman who set her husband on fire killed him for raping her seven-year-old daughter She found him, murdered him And yes she deserves the death penalty What?! ♪ (intro music) ♪ (Off-screen): If you support the death penalty Please take the light to the left If you do not support the death penalty Take the light to the right First statement step forward if you agree If you do not agree If it is not true for you stay exactly where you are Having a death penalty deters people from committing crimes (Genesta): I don't know that any regular human, the average human which is who we're speaking about would risk their life when that survival instinct is so incredibly ingrained and so strong (Dillon): That's the foundation of my entire argument The reason why I stay on the left hand side not because I feel that Capital punishment should be handed out dished out to everyone that commits a crime No, I'm talking about the idea that it in my opinion capital punishment is a deterrent It influences the way people behave look at Michigan, Michigan abolished Capital punishment in 1858 Look at the crime rate in Michigan now (Khalil): Ridiculous So let me ask you guys your child grabs a vase purposely You see them grab the vase, smash it on the ground Look you dead in the eye Are they deserving of a punishment? (Khalil, Omar): Yes (Dillon): Are they aware of their actions? (Genesta): They're 4 years old! (Dillon): Exactly They looked you right in the eye (Khalil): So they know what they did was wrong (Genesta): They're 4 years old (Omar): They know what they're doing wrong It's like a challenge they're gonna continue to do the same thing over and over (Genesta): What if I told you that instead of punishing that child you spoke to that child people though might not have all the information in the way that a 4 year old doesn't have all the information (Off-screen): Disagreers (Sean): I really don't remember any time someone was like you know, I really want to kill someone but that death penalty man No, it just doesn't make sense to me that that's a deterrent if anything a human connection to someone like to themselves or their family or someone they care about has been the biggest deterrent in my idea Of course (Off-screen): Anyone can be rehabilitated back into society Absolutely, absolutely y'all. Here's the thing. Here's the thing I think this is probably the most hippie part about my whole thinking is that unending optimism for people that I know better than to give up on someone (Genesta): I agreed with the first half of the sentence but not the second in that I think anybody can be rehabilitated That doesn't mean that they're going back into society There are options for somebody to live a full complete life and not be a danger to society (Omar): You also have to look at it with child molestation cases How're you gonna sentence someone that did some crime like that That's so heinous it's happened many times where they release these people constantly and they're still doing the same thing No matter how much you try to rehabilitate someone they also have to want to be rehabilitated in order for that (Sean): We're assuming people don't want to be rehabilitated That's my whole point if you can believe that people don't want to be rehabilitated though you have to also believe the possibility that they could redeem themselves and do something amazing after that rehabilitation happens For those people that are just like past rehabilitation are they deserving of death? Is that what we've come to? (Khalil): It really depends on again what the circumstances, what this crime is (Sean): But that's where we get into who are we to say who's deserving or not We need to actually know their entire story and who they are as a person their upbringing what got them into that situation their mental stability all of those things can be taken more in consideration But that goes to say once you read their book you're gonna be empathetic and it's clear that they've taken-- You can't have empathy when families have lost their kids due to those-- (Sean): That's the entire most important time to have empathy (Genesta):Yes That's the whole point is when a family's going through that to understand what the family's going through on top of what the person went through (Off-screen): Everyone deserves a second chance (Omar): Personally I don't think everybody deserves a second chance but I do believe that there are people who do deserve it so it just depends again like I was mentioning earlier depends on what kind of crime they're committing if they killed somebody I don't believe that they deserve a second chance but if they did a lesser crime like they're stealing something from a store like candy or something like that or a TV or a bike I do believe that they deserve a second chance (Sean): Here's the thing for me this is why it gets hypocritical to me in this kind of discussion where we all think about the other person of the victim or something like that in terms of second chances But the whole biggest idea where we really confront this idea is if it was us Would I want a second chance if I knew I messed up on something however heinous or big it was or howsoever small it was I want that second chance for me and for at least my family and friends That's the least I want so that's why I know it applies to everyone (Genesta): I think it depends on what the second chance is that doesn't mean that there is absolute reentry into society a second chance often means giving someone their life (Austin): Let's just say a horrendous crime they had someone raped then burned someone alive It's a horrendous crime To just let them out into society that's too much of a second chance but from what within the confines of prison for such a heinous act That you do get a little bit more (Dillon): Only one Just want to go back to statement People deserve chances does every single person deserve a second chance? And my opinion no because maybe what the crime that they committed then you're talking about I would love to have the chance to have a second chance There's a difference between I would love to have it and I deserve it I think I'm a little confused about where it is that this line is drawn because that makes the difference between a second chance between life and death between consideration and no consideration I think I think it does start with obviously the crime that you commit there is a difference between intentionally and unintentionally OK so what if I put a pillow over a woman's face versus if I chop her up? (All begin speaking) So ending someone's life that is the height of violence (Dillon): If it was calculated I don't think you deserve a second chance in my opinion for a crime like that No I don't care I've no remorse I've no mercy for anyone who kills anyone I spoke about this the other day There was a woman who set her husband on fire killed him for raping her 7 year old daughter She found him murdered him That was not self-defense It was premeditated (Dillon): That's revenge (Khalil): Yes and yes and yes she deserves the death penalty What?! (Khalil): Listen she can go through the legal-- I don't care how much it hurts I understand that... but I don't-- you still need to go through the legal process like everybody else you don't take it into your own hands to go and-- (Genesta): So you guys talk about the death penalty like its global justice like you're doing something for the world (Khalil): You are like you are removing a threat But that woman was doing some global justice if I ever heard it (Khalil): that was not her right to do though that's not how it works (Genesta): You say that a jury of your peers that we as citizens we as the constituency we have that right then what because we have numbers because we have some process A death penalty is a state sanctioned homicide it still is a homicide but it is decided by multiple people at that point-- (Sean): Here's the thing I think we need to go above the legal system in this dialogue because it was legal to have slaves (Dillon): Yeah exactly (All begin to talk) We'd have to go beyond this and that's when our ideas transcend what we're talking about (Off-screen): If someone genuinely apologizes for a crime their punishment should be reduced (Sean): Um, duh (laughter/inaudible) The thing is like of course it's the hardest part of this concept This idea is how do you judge someone's genuine authenticity in their apologeticness right? I specifically remember a case Stanley Tookie Williams this guy really convinced me that he was apologetic for his crime and the thing was he believed he didn't commit the crime He was innocent of the crime but he was still apologetic for his past crimes that he'd done in his life and the things that he did get convicted for so when I saw that he made a children's book about preventing other kids from actually ending up where he ended up as a gang member and leader of the Crips I believe That was enough for me where he's actually going out of his way to prevent future crime from happening for other people I'm like, all right I accept your apology man I accept that big time (Omar): There's no way of validating apology I mean like how do you know if they're apologizing they're lying, you know? That happens a lot I mean they're people who seem so genuine and behind their eyes they're not truthful (Khalil): Yeah you don't know Well let's just say gang on gang violence just say that a gang member did a hit on a house of an opposing gang member and their family and let's say while shooting he killed three people Just say eventually he did apologize It doesn't matter He still killed someone and he should still serve a life sentence with it (Sean): What if this person did so much to redeem themselves or account for that and actually showed their genuine apologeticness behind-- (Austin): I do not care (Sean): You don't care (Austin): I don't care (Sean): Gosh, OK They committed murder they get life in prison No death penalty they get life (Sean): So if they became Mother Teresa after this (Austin): No, nope They get to see their life behind bars (Genesta): I think it's important to consider the stress that this gentleman is under he's in a gang lifestyle in a gang environment Where he's gonna get his ass beat if he does not go make this hit even in military crimes (Austin): Yep Like in world war II all those people that followed orders Yes, they were guilty of those crimes (Austin): There are people who opposed or people who tried to within Hitler's own group tried to kill Hitler You still as an individual chose to do an action (Genesta): You can't count on somebody else to have courage in the capacity that you do You can't count on somebody to be as intelligent or as brave as you are (Omar): if we just allow someone to skirt by we're giving a bad example to everybody else in society they're gonna think they can just repeat the same thing and they're gonna get away with it (Off-screen): I believe that anyone can forgive anyone given enough time (Sean): I just want to sit on this side can I do that? (Khalil): I'll sit right here this time (Sean): I mean once I read a story about a mother that forgave the killer of her child I'm like okay I believe in it I believe anything is possible now (Off-screen): Imagine your mother for a second (Sean): oh s***e (Off-screen): If someone were to kill your mother Would you be able to forgive that person No (Sean): Eventually It'd be hard (Khalil): The question was eventually with time I'm gonna say yes with it sure with time Unless you've really experienced something like that You won't know yourself really You only know what you feel right now but unless you were in that motion where it did happen that mentality you don't know (Sean): Way to traumatize people with that question (Khalil): Oh for real (Dillon): Yeah, first of all guys asking that question about your mother I applaud you for even giving the consideration to forgive that person For myself personally if something like that did happen my mom I would find it so hard for myself to forgive that person who committed that act knowing that he has destroyed my life also destroyed our family's lives (Austin): I think I would eventually forgive But I know there's people out there who would always hold a grudge I can't justify someone killing my mother I mean I can't see myself forgiving someone like that (Sean): I heard a great concept about immediately forgiving someone and finding the reasons to forgive them later That actually helped me find peace of mind knowing that that's the guaranteed like where I should end up anyway, you know (Off-screen): So back to this concept of our own mothers if my mother were to commit murder I would vouch for her to receive capital punishment I can't you know I can't sit here and be a hypocrite And say that I'm for capital punishment if my own mother would commit a crime as so heinous I would be for even for her (Khalil): The law applies to everyone (Omar): Even my own mother (Khalil): Yeah, if law enforcement has to abide by the law if us citizens have to abide by the law yeah mom should too (Sean): This is a very a troubling thing for me that anybody walked up to these chairs Because one it's something that I questioned morally and emotionally about our society that we're not already crying or feeling some kind of feeling about our own mother being on death row because now we can easily imagine if we take it one more step further that every single person on death row is somebody's mother or father or sister or brother We can't escape that we'll be sad but at the same time they committed a crime and they have to pay for it That's it for you though? (Austin): Why does it have to be the death penalty though? (Omar): Why would I be for the death penalty in the first place? on other crimes sex offenders What would it be for and what if they were a sex offender themselves that doesn't exclude them because they're my parents (Off-screen): I am afraid that there are innocent people on death row (Dillon): I think we can all agree. (Genesta): Yep. Yeah. (Dillon): There have been incidences. (Genesta): There's been many cases There could be more too (Austin): The current count I believe ever since President Carter is a hundred people have been found not guilty due to basically witnesses lying DNA and other such things so a hundred people is not a small amount (Sean): Yeah if one person is innocent that's enough for me to not trust the legal system and on top of that in terms of corruption, racism all these kinds of things that affect our whole legal system I don't know why it's taboo to say that We need to admit that more and it's gonna be okay like let's admit it and move forward ♪ (outro music) ♪ Can I just hug you? (Omar): Yeah (general laughter) (Sean): How is your mom? (Omar): She's good (Sean): And how's your mom doing? (Khalil): She's chillin' (Off-screen): That's a wrap Good job guys (cast claps) Hey guys this is Jason from Jubilee We hope you enjoyed another wonderful episode of middle ground Let us know in the comments below what you thought as well as let us know if you have any ideas for any new episodes As you can tell we're listening to you guys and a lot of these are your suggestions So thank you Make sure you click here for more videos Click here to subscribe and we will see you guys next time