There was a woman who set her husband on fire killed him
for raping her seven-year-old daughter She found him, murdered him
And yes she deserves the death penalty
What?!
♪ (intro music) ♪
(Off-screen): If you support the death penalty
Please take the light to the left
If you do not support the death penalty Take the light to the right
First statement step forward if you agree
If you do not agree
If it is not true for you stay exactly where you are
Having a death penalty deters people from committing crimes
(Genesta): I don't know that any regular human, the average human
which is who we're speaking about would risk their life
when that survival instinct is so incredibly ingrained and so strong
(Dillon): That's the foundation of my entire argument
The reason why I stay on the left hand side
not because I feel that Capital punishment should be handed out
dished out to everyone that commits a crime
No, I'm talking about the idea
that it in my opinion capital punishment is a deterrent
It influences the way people behave look at Michigan, Michigan abolished
Capital punishment in 1858
Look at the crime rate in Michigan now (Khalil): Ridiculous
So let me ask you guys your child grabs a vase purposely
You see them grab the vase, smash it on the ground
Look you dead in the eye Are they deserving of a punishment?
(Khalil, Omar): Yes
(Dillon): Are they aware of their actions? (Genesta): They're 4 years old!
(Dillon): Exactly
They looked you right in the eye
(Khalil): So they know what they did was wrong
(Genesta): They're 4 years old
(Omar): They know what they're doing wrong It's like a challenge
they're gonna continue to do the same thing over and over
(Genesta): What if I told you
that instead of punishing that child you spoke to that child
people though might not have all the information in the way
that a 4 year old doesn't have all the information
(Off-screen): Disagreers
(Sean): I really don't remember any time someone was like
you know, I really want to kill someone but that death penalty man
No, it just doesn't make sense to me that that's a deterrent
if anything a human connection to someone like to themselves or their family
or someone they care about has been the biggest deterrent in my idea
Of course
(Off-screen): Anyone can be rehabilitated back into society
Absolutely, absolutely y'all. Here's the thing. Here's the thing
I think this is probably the most hippie part about my whole thinking is
that unending optimism for people that I know better than to give up on someone
(Genesta): I agreed with the first half of the sentence
but not the second in that I think anybody can be rehabilitated
That doesn't mean that they're going back into society
There are options for somebody to
live a full complete life and not be a danger to society
(Omar): You also have to look at it with child molestation cases
How're you gonna sentence someone that did some crime like that
That's so heinous
it's happened many times where they release these people constantly
and they're still doing the same thing
No matter how much you try to rehabilitate someone
they also have to want to be rehabilitated in order for that
(Sean): We're assuming people don't want to be rehabilitated
That's my whole point
if you can believe that people don't want to be rehabilitated though
you have to also believe the possibility that they could redeem themselves
and do something amazing after that rehabilitation happens
For those people that are just like
past rehabilitation are they deserving of death?
Is that what we've come to?
(Khalil): It really depends on again what the circumstances, what this crime is
(Sean): But that's where we get into
who are we to say who's deserving or not
We need to actually know their entire story and who they are as a person
their upbringing what got them into that situation
their mental stability all of those things
can be taken more in consideration
But that goes to say once you read their book
you're gonna be empathetic and it's clear that they've taken--
You can't have empathy when families have lost their kids due to those--
(Sean): That's the entire most important time to have empathy
(Genesta):Yes
That's the whole point
is when a family's going through that to understand
what the family's going through on top of what the person went through
(Off-screen): Everyone deserves a second chance
(Omar): Personally I don't think everybody deserves a second chance
but I do believe that there are people who do deserve it
so it just depends again
like I was mentioning earlier depends on
what kind of crime they're committing if they killed somebody
I don't believe that they deserve a second chance
but if they did a lesser crime like they're stealing something from a store
like candy or something like that or a TV or a bike
I do believe that they deserve a second chance
(Sean): Here's the thing for me this is why it gets hypocritical to me
in this kind of discussion where we all think about the other person
of the victim or something like that in terms of second chances
But the whole biggest idea where we really confront this idea is if it was us
Would I want a second chance if I knew I messed up on something
however heinous or big it was or howsoever small it was
I want that second chance for me and for at least my family and friends
That's the least I want so that's why I know it applies to everyone
(Genesta): I think it depends on what the second chance is
that doesn't mean that there is absolute reentry into society
a second chance often means giving someone their life
(Austin): Let's just say a horrendous crime
they had someone raped then burned someone alive
It's a horrendous crime
To just let them out into society that's too much of a second chance
but from what within the confines of prison for such a heinous act
That you do get a little bit more
(Dillon): Only one
Just want to go back to statement People deserve chances
does every single person deserve a second chance?
And my opinion no because maybe
what the crime that they committed then you're talking about
I would love to have the chance to have a second chance
There's a difference between I would love to have it and I deserve it
I think I'm a little confused about where it is that this line is drawn
because that makes the difference between a second chance
between life and death between consideration and no consideration
I think I think it does start with
obviously the crime that you commit there is a difference between
intentionally and unintentionally
OK so what if I put a pillow over a woman's face
versus if I chop her up?
(All begin speaking)
So ending someone's life that is the height of violence
(Dillon): If it was calculated
I don't think you deserve a second chance in my opinion for a crime like that
No I don't care I've no remorse
I've no mercy for anyone who kills anyone
I spoke about this the other day
There was a woman who set her husband on fire
killed him for raping her 7 year old daughter
She found him murdered him
That was not self-defense It was premeditated
(Dillon): That's revenge
(Khalil): Yes and yes and yes she deserves the death penalty
What?!
(Khalil): Listen she can go through the legal--
I don't care how much it hurts I understand that... but I don't--
you still need to go through the legal process like everybody else
you don't take it into your own hands to go and--
(Genesta): So you guys talk about the death penalty like its global justice
like you're doing something for the world (Khalil): You are
like you are removing a threat
But that woman was doing some global justice if I ever heard it
(Khalil): that was not her right to do though
that's not how it works
(Genesta): You say that a jury of your peers that we as citizens
we as the constituency we have that right then
what because we have numbers because we have some process
A death penalty is a state sanctioned homicide
it still is a homicide
but it is decided by multiple people at that point--
(Sean): Here's the thing I think we need to go
above the legal system in this dialogue because it was legal to have slaves
(Dillon): Yeah exactly (All begin to talk)
We'd have to go beyond this and
that's when our ideas transcend what we're talking about
(Off-screen): If someone
genuinely apologizes for a crime their punishment should be reduced
(Sean): Um, duh (laughter/inaudible)
The thing is like of course it's the hardest part of this concept
This idea is how do you judge
someone's genuine authenticity in their apologeticness right?
I specifically remember a case Stanley Tookie Williams this guy
really convinced me that he was apologetic for his crime
and the thing was he believed he didn't commit the crime
He was innocent of the crime
but he was still apologetic for his past crimes that he'd done in his life
and the things that he did get convicted for
so when I saw that he made a children's book
about preventing other kids from actually ending up where he ended up
as a gang member and leader of the Crips I believe
That was enough for me where he's actually going out of his way
to prevent future crime from happening for other people
I'm like, all right I accept your apology man
I accept that big time
(Omar): There's no way of validating apology
I mean like
how do you know if they're apologizing they're lying, you know?
That happens a lot I mean
they're people who seem so genuine and behind their eyes
they're not truthful (Khalil): Yeah you don't know
Well let's just say gang on gang violence just say that a gang member
did a hit on a house of an opposing gang member and their family
and let's say while shooting he killed three people
Just say eventually he did apologize
It doesn't matter
He still killed someone and he should still serve a life sentence with it
(Sean): What if this person did so much to redeem themselves or account for that
and actually showed their genuine apologeticness behind--
(Austin): I do not care (Sean): You don't care
(Austin): I don't care (Sean): Gosh, OK
They committed murder they get life in prison
No death penalty
they get life
(Sean): So if they became Mother Teresa after this
(Austin): No, nope They get to see their life behind bars
(Genesta): I think it's important to consider
the stress that this gentleman is under
he's in a gang lifestyle in a gang environment
Where he's gonna get his ass beat if he does not go make this hit
even in military crimes (Austin): Yep
Like in world war II all those people that followed orders
Yes, they were guilty of those crimes
(Austin): There are people who opposed
or people who tried to within Hitler's own group tried to kill Hitler
You still as an individual chose to do an action
(Genesta): You can't count on somebody else to
have courage in the capacity that you do You can't count on
somebody to be as intelligent or as brave as you are
(Omar): if we just allow someone
to skirt by we're giving a bad example to everybody else in society
they're gonna think they can just repeat the same thing
and they're gonna get away with it
(Off-screen): I believe that anyone can forgive anyone given enough time
(Sean): I just want to sit on this side can I do that?
(Khalil): I'll sit right here this time
(Sean): I mean once I read a story about
a mother that forgave the killer of her child
I'm like okay I believe in it
I believe anything is possible now
(Off-screen): Imagine your mother for a second
(Sean): oh s***e
(Off-screen): If someone were to kill your mother
Would you be able to forgive that person
No
(Sean): Eventually It'd be hard
(Khalil): The question was eventually with time
I'm gonna say yes with it sure with time
Unless you've really experienced something like that
You won't know yourself really
You only know what you feel right now
but unless you were in that motion where it did happen
that mentality you don't know
(Sean): Way to traumatize people with that question
(Khalil): Oh for real
(Dillon): Yeah, first of all guys asking that question about your mother
I applaud you for even giving the consideration to forgive that person
For myself personally if something like that did happen my mom
I would find it so hard for myself to forgive that person who committed that act
knowing that he has destroyed my life
also destroyed our family's lives
(Austin): I think I would eventually forgive
But I know there's people out there who would always hold a grudge
I can't justify someone killing my mother
I mean I can't see myself forgiving someone like that
(Sean): I heard a great concept about
immediately forgiving someone and finding the reasons to forgive them later
That actually helped me find peace of mind knowing
that that's the guaranteed like where I should end up anyway, you know
(Off-screen): So back to this concept of our own mothers
if my mother were to commit murder
I would vouch for her to receive capital punishment
I can't you know I can't sit here and be a hypocrite
And say that I'm for capital punishment
if my own mother would commit a crime as so heinous
I would be for even for her
(Khalil): The law applies to everyone
(Omar): Even my own mother
(Khalil): Yeah, if law enforcement has to abide by the law
if us citizens have to abide by the law
yeah mom should too
(Sean): This is a very a troubling thing for me
that anybody walked up to these chairs
Because one it's something that
I questioned morally and emotionally about our society
that we're not already crying
or feeling some kind of feeling about our own mother being on death row
because now we can easily imagine if we take it one more step further
that every single person on death row
is somebody's mother or father or sister or brother
We can't escape that we'll be sad
but at the same time they committed a crime and they have to pay for it
That's it for you though?
(Austin): Why does it have to be the death penalty though?
(Omar): Why would I be for the death penalty in the first place?
on other crimes
sex offenders
What would it be for and what if they were a sex offender themselves
that doesn't exclude them because they're my parents
(Off-screen): I am afraid that there are innocent people on death row
(Dillon): I think we can all agree.
(Genesta): Yep. Yeah.
(Dillon): There have been incidences. (Genesta): There's been many cases
There could be more too
(Austin): The current count I believe ever since President Carter
is a hundred people have been found not guilty due to
basically witnesses lying DNA and other such things
so a hundred people is not a small amount
(Sean): Yeah if one person is innocent
that's enough for me to not trust the legal system
and on top of that in terms of corruption, racism
all these kinds of things that affect our whole legal system
I don't know why it's taboo to say that
We need to admit that more and it's gonna be okay
like let's admit it and move forward
♪ (outro music) ♪
Can I just hug you?
(Omar): Yeah (general laughter)
(Sean): How is your mom? (Omar): She's good
(Sean): And how's your mom doing? (Khalil): She's chillin'
(Off-screen): That's a wrap Good job guys
(cast claps)
Hey guys this is Jason from Jubilee
We hope you enjoyed another wonderful episode of middle ground
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