WEBVTT

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There was a woman who 
set her husband on fire killed him

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for raping her seven-year-old daughter
She found him, murdered him

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And yes she deserves the death penalty

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What?!

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♪ (intro music) ♪

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(Off-screen): 
If you support the death penalty

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Please take the light to the left

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If you do not support the death penalty
Take the light to the right

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First statement step forward if you agree

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If you do not agree

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If it is not true for you
stay exactly where you are

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Having a death penalty 
deters people from committing crimes

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(Genesta): I don't know that
any regular human, the average human

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which is who we're speaking about
would risk their life

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when that survival instinct is
so incredibly ingrained and so strong

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(Dillon): That's the foundation
of my entire argument

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The reason why
I stay on the left hand side

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not because I feel that
Capital punishment should be handed out

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dished out to everyone
that commits a crime

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No, I'm talking about the idea

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that it in my opinion
capital punishment is a deterrent

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It influences the way people behave
look at Michigan, Michigan abolished

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Capital punishment in 1858

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Look at the crime rate in Michigan now
(Khalil): Ridiculous

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So let me ask you guys 
your child grabs a vase purposely

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You see them grab the vase,
smash it on the ground

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Look you dead in the eye
Are they deserving of a punishment?

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(Khalil, Omar): Yes

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(Dillon): Are they aware of their actions?
(Genesta): They're 4 years old!

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(Dillon): Exactly

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They looked you right in the eye

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(Khalil): 
So they know what they did was wrong

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(Genesta): They're 4 years old

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(Omar): They know what they're doing wrong
It's like a challenge

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they're gonna continue
to do the same thing over and over

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(Genesta): What if I told you

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that instead of punishing that child 
you spoke to that child

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people though might not have
all the information in the way

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that a 4 year old
doesn't have all the information

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(Off-screen): Disagreers

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(Sean): I really don't remember 
any time someone was like

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you know, I really want to kill someone
but that death penalty man

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No, it just doesn't make sense to me
that that's a deterrent

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if anything a human connection to someone
like to themselves or their family

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or someone they care about has been
the biggest deterrent in my idea

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Of course

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(Off-screen): Anyone can be 
rehabilitated back into society

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Absolutely, absolutely y'all. 
Here's the thing. Here's the thing

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I think this is probably the most
hippie part about my whole thinking is

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that unending optimism for people that
I know better than to give up on someone

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(Genesta): I agreed
with the first half of the sentence

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but not the second in that
I think anybody can be rehabilitated

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That doesn't mean that
they're going back into society

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There are options for somebody to

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live a full complete life
and not be a danger to society

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(Omar): You also have to look at it
with child molestation cases

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How're you gonna sentence someone
that did some crime like that

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That's so heinous

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it's happened many times
where they release these people constantly

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and they're still doing the same thing


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No matter how much
you try to rehabilitate someone

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they also have to 
want to be rehabilitated in order for that

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(Sean): We're assuming people 
don't want to be rehabilitated

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That's my whole point

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if you can believe that people don't
want to be rehabilitated though

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you have to also believe the possibility
that they could redeem themselves

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and do something amazing
after that rehabilitation happens

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For those people that are just like

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past rehabilitation are they
deserving of death?

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Is that what we've come to?

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(Khalil): It really depends on again
what the circumstances, what this crime is

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(Sean): But that's where we get into


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who are we to say
who's deserving or not

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We need to actually know their
entire story and who they are as a person

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their upbringing
what got them into that situation

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their mental stability
all of those things

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can be taken more in consideration

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But that goes to say
once you read their book

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you're gonna be empathetic
and it's clear that they've taken--

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You can't have empathy when families
have lost their kids due to those--

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(Sean): That's the entire
most important time to have empathy

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(Genesta):Yes

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That's the whole point

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is when a family's going through that
to understand

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what the family's going through
on top of what the person went through

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(Off-screen):
Everyone deserves a second chance

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(Omar): Personally I don't think
everybody deserves a second chance

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but I do believe that
there are people who do deserve it

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so it just depends again

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like I was mentioning earlier depends on

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what kind of crime they're committing
if they killed somebody

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I don't believe that they
deserve a second chance

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but if they did a lesser crime like
they're stealing something from a store

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like candy or something like that
or a TV or a bike

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I do believe that they
deserve a second chance

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(Sean): Here's the thing for me
this is why it gets hypocritical to me

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in this kind of discussion
where we all think about the other person

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of the victim or something like that in
terms of second chances

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But the whole biggest idea where we
really confront this idea is if it was us

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Would I want a second chance
if I knew I messed up on something

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however heinous or big it was
or howsoever small it was

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I want that second chance for me
and for at least my family and friends

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That's the least I want so
that's why I know it applies to everyone

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(Genesta): I think it depends on
what the second chance is

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that doesn't mean that there is
absolute reentry into society

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a second chance often means
giving someone their life

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(Austin): Let's just say
a horrendous crime

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they had someone raped
then burned someone alive

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It's a horrendous crime

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To just let them out into society
that's too much of a second chance

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but from what within the confines of
prison for such a heinous act

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That you do get a little bit more

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(Dillon): Only one

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Just want to go back to statement
People deserve chances

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does every single person deserve
a second chance?

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And my opinion no
because maybe

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what the crime that they committed
then you're talking about

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I would love to have the
chance to have a second chance

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There's a difference between
I would love to have it and I deserve it

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I think I'm a little confused about
where it is that this line is drawn

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because that makes the difference
between a second chance

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between life and death
between consideration and no consideration

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I think I think it does start with

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obviously the crime that you commit
there is a difference between

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intentionally and unintentionally

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OK so what if I put
a pillow over a woman's face

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versus if I chop her up?

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(All begin speaking)

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So ending someone's life
that is the height of violence

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(Dillon): If it was calculated

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I don't think you deserve a second chance
in my opinion for a crime like that

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No I don't care
I've no remorse

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I've no mercy
for anyone who kills anyone

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I spoke about this the other day

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There was a woman who
set her husband on fire

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killed him for raping
her 7 year old daughter

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She found him
murdered him

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That was not self-defense
It was premeditated

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(Dillon): That's revenge

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(Khalil): Yes and yes and yes
she deserves the death penalty

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What?!

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(Khalil):
Listen she can go through the legal--

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I don't care how much it hurts
I understand that... but I don't--

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you still need to go through
the legal process like everybody else

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you don't take it into
your own hands to go and--

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(Genesta): So you guys talk about
the death penalty like its global justice

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like you're doing something for the world
(Khalil): You are

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like you are removing a threat

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But that woman was doing
some global justice if I ever heard it

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(Khalil):
that was not her right to do though


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that's not how it works

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(Genesta): You say that
a jury of your peers that we as citizens

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we as the constituency
we have that right then

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what because we have numbers
because we have some process

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A death penalty is
a state sanctioned homicide

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it still is a homicide

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but it is decided by multiple people
at that point--

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(Sean):
Here's the thing I think we need to go

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above the legal system in this dialogue
because it was legal to have slaves

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(Dillon): Yeah exactly
(All begin to talk)

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We'd have to go beyond this and

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that's when our ideas transcend
what we're talking about

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(Off-screen):
If someone

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genuinely apologizes for a crime
their punishment should be reduced

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(Sean): Um, duh
(laughter/inaudible)

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The thing is like of course
it's the hardest part of this concept

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This idea is how do you judge

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someone's genuine authenticity
in their apologeticness right?

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I specifically remember a case
Stanley Tookie Williams this guy

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really convinced me that
he was apologetic for his crime

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and the thing was
he believed he didn't commit the crime

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He was innocent of the crime

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but he was still apologetic for
his past crimes that he'd done in his life

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and the things that
he did get convicted for

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so when I saw that he made
a children's book

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about preventing other kids from
actually ending up where he ended up

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as a gang member
and leader of the Crips I believe

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That was enough for me
where he's actually going out of his way

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to prevent future crime from
happening for other people

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I'm like, all right
I accept your apology man

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I accept that big time

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(Omar):
There's no way of validating apology

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I mean like

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how do you know if they're apologizing
they're lying, you know?

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That happens a lot
I mean

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they're people who seem so genuine
and behind their eyes

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they're not truthful
(Khalil): Yeah you don't know

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Well let's just say gang on gang violence
just say that a gang member

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did a hit on a house of
an opposing gang member and their family

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and let's say
while shooting he killed three people

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Just say eventually he did apologize

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It doesn't matter

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He still killed someone and he should
still serve a life sentence with it

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(Sean): What if this person did so much
to redeem themselves or account for that

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and actually showed
their genuine apologeticness behind--

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(Austin): I do not care
(Sean): You don't care

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(Austin): I don't care
(Sean): Gosh, OK


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They committed murder
they get life in prison

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No death penalty

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they get life

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(Sean): So if they became
Mother Teresa after this

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(Austin): No, nope
They get to see their life behind bars

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(Genesta):
I think it's important to consider

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the stress that this gentleman is under


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he's in a gang lifestyle
in a gang environment

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Where he's gonna get his ass beat if
he does not go make this hit

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even in military crimes
(Austin): Yep

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Like in world war II
all those people that followed orders

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Yes, they were guilty of those crimes

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(Austin): There are people who opposed

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or people who tried to within Hitler's
own group tried to kill Hitler

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You still as an individual
chose to do an action

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(Genesta):
You can't count on somebody else to

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have courage in the capacity that you do
You can't count on

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somebody to be as intelligent
or as brave as you are

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(Omar): if we just allow someone

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to skirt by we're giving a bad example
to everybody else in society

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they're gonna think
they can just repeat the same thing

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and they're gonna get away with it

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(Off-screen): I believe that anyone
can forgive anyone given enough time

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(Sean): I just want to sit on this side
can I do that?

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(Khalil):
I'll sit right here this time

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(Sean): I mean once I read a story about

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a mother that forgave
the killer of her child

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I'm like okay I believe in it

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I believe anything is possible now

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(Off-screen):
Imagine your mother for a second

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(Sean): oh s***e

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(Off-screen):
If someone were to kill your mother

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Would you be able to forgive that person

NOTE Paragraph

00:11:47.670 --> 00:11:49.670
No

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(Sean): Eventually
It'd be hard

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(Khalil):
The question was eventually with time

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I'm gonna say yes with it sure with time

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Unless you've really experienced
something like that

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You won't know yourself really

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You only know what you feel right now

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but unless you were in that motion
where it did happen

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that mentality
you don't know

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(Sean): Way to traumatize people
with that question

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(Khalil): Oh for real

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(Dillon): Yeah, first of all guys
asking that question about your mother

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I applaud you for even giving
the consideration to forgive that person

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For myself personally
if something like that did happen my mom

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I would find it so hard for myself to
forgive that person who committed that act

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knowing that he has destroyed my life

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also destroyed our family's lives

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(Austin):
I think I would eventually forgive

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But I know there's people out there
who would always hold a grudge

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I can't justify someone killing my mother

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I mean I can't see myself
forgiving someone like that

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(Sean): I heard a great concept about

00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:52.020
immediately forgiving someone and
finding the reasons to forgive them later

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That actually helped me
find peace of mind knowing

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that that's the guaranteed like
where I should end up anyway, you know

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(Off-screen):
So back to this concept of our own mothers

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if my mother were to commit murder

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I would vouch for her
to receive capital punishment

00:13:23.640 --> 00:13:26.630
I can't you know
I can't sit here and be a hypocrite

00:13:26.850 --> 00:13:29.420
And say that I'm for capital punishment

00:13:29.420 --> 00:13:32.110
if my own mother would
commit a crime as so heinous

00:13:32.110 --> 00:13:34.030
I would be for even for her

00:13:34.030 --> 00:13:36.470
(Khalil): The law applies to everyone

00:13:36.470 --> 00:13:38.180
(Omar): Even my own mother

00:13:38.180 --> 00:13:41.795
(Khalil): Yeah, if law enforcement
has to abide by the law

00:13:41.795 --> 00:13:43.837
if us citizens have to abide by the law

00:13:43.837 --> 00:13:45.237
yeah mom should too

00:13:49.040 --> 00:13:51.600
(Sean):
This is a very a troubling thing for me

00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:54.110
that anybody walked up to these chairs

00:13:54.110 --> 00:13:56.210
Because one it's something that

00:13:56.210 --> 00:13:59.100
I questioned morally
and emotionally about our society

00:13:59.100 --> 00:14:00.510
that we're not already crying

00:14:00.510 --> 00:14:04.850
or feeling some kind of feeling about
our own mother being on death row

00:14:04.850 --> 00:14:09.610
because now we can easily imagine
if we take it one more step further

00:14:09.610 --> 00:14:11.370
that every single person on death row

00:14:11.370 --> 00:14:13.749
is somebody's mother
or father or sister or brother

00:14:14.020 --> 00:14:15.929
We can't escape that we'll be sad

00:14:15.929 --> 00:14:19.599
but at the same time they committed
a crime and they have to pay for it

00:14:19.599 --> 00:14:21.169
That's it for you though?

00:14:21.169 --> 00:14:23.930
(Austin): Why does it have to be
the death penalty though?

00:14:24.060 --> 00:14:27.160
(Omar): Why would I be
for the death penalty in the first place?

00:14:27.160 --> 00:14:28.340
on other crimes

00:14:28.340 --> 00:14:29.340
sex offenders

00:14:29.340 --> 00:14:32.530
What would it be for and what if
they were a sex offender themselves

00:14:32.530 --> 00:14:35.520
that doesn't exclude them
because they're my parents

00:14:35.870 --> 00:14:39.879
(Off-screen): I am afraid that
there are innocent people on death row

00:14:48.390 --> 00:14:50.220
(Dillon): I think we can all agree.

00:14:50.220 --> 00:14:51.250
(Genesta): Yep. Yeah.

00:14:51.250 --> 00:14:54.760
(Dillon): There have been incidences.
(Genesta): There's been many cases

00:14:54.760 --> 00:14:56.210
There could be more too

00:14:56.210 --> 00:14:59.260
(Austin): The current count
I believe ever since President Carter

00:14:59.260 --> 00:15:02.760
is a hundred people have been
found not guilty due to

00:15:02.760 --> 00:15:06.420
basically witnesses lying
DNA and other such things

00:15:06.420 --> 00:15:10.160
so a hundred people is not a small amount

00:15:10.410 --> 00:15:12.220
(Sean): Yeah if one person is innocent

00:15:12.220 --> 00:15:14.550
that's enough for me
to not trust the legal system

00:15:14.550 --> 00:15:16.840
and on top of that in terms of
corruption, racism

00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:19.650
all these kinds of things
that affect our whole legal system

00:15:19.650 --> 00:15:21.510
I don't know why it's taboo to say that

00:15:21.510 --> 00:15:23.800
We need to admit that more
and it's gonna be okay

00:15:23.800 --> 00:15:25.560
like let's admit it and move forward

00:15:25.560 --> 00:15:26.600
♪ (outro music) ♪

00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:27.510
Can I just hug you?

00:15:27.510 --> 00:15:29.400
(Omar): Yeah
(general laughter)

00:15:29.429 --> 00:15:31.679
(Sean): How is your mom?
(Omar): She's good

00:15:31.884 --> 00:15:34.954
(Sean): And how's your mom doing?
(Khalil): She's chillin'

00:15:36.586 --> 00:15:38.836
(Off-screen): That's a wrap
Good job guys

00:15:38.836 --> 00:15:41.446
(cast claps)

00:15:45.999 --> 00:15:47.709
Hey guys this is Jason from Jubilee

00:15:47.709 --> 00:15:51.129
We hope you enjoyed another
wonderful episode of middle ground

00:15:51.129 --> 00:15:53.700
Let us know in the comments below
what you thought

00:15:53.700 --> 00:15:56.950
as well as let us know if you have
any ideas for any new episodes

00:15:56.950 --> 00:15:57.780
As you can tell

00:15:57.780 --> 00:16:00.920
we're listening to you guys
and a lot of these are your suggestions

00:16:00.920 --> 00:16:02.250
So thank you

00:16:02.250 --> 00:16:04.209
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