Doreen Garner on Her Own Terms | Art21 "New York Close Up"

- [Doreen Garner] I've been
having more conversations

with God in the morning and you know,

it's usually you know smoke like a joint

and then talk in a mirror.

A lot of my most impactful works

are through those conversations.

Since lockdown I've changed
material tone a lot,

you know, I've been really aware of

how Black people are viewing like

Black bodies in public spaces,

especially if they like allude
to any type of violence.

So, you know, my sculptures

usually end up looking pretty violent or

grotesque or however you
want to describe them.

And so I didn't want to trigger anybody

more so than before COVID and

ways that Black death was
broadcasted on TV last year.

So I'm kind of changing tone materially.

I'm working more with white flesh and

disease and toxicity.

- [Doreen Garner] Yeah

(Doreen laughs)

(suspenseful fast paced music)

Right now,

I'm doing some castings
for a piece I'm working on

it's, it's a series,

but I'm starting two of the flags

and they're made out of flesh.

It's supposed to be white
diseased skin on the front

composing colonizing country flags,

and then Black bodies on the backside

that are kind of bloody and piled up.

The two flags I'm working on right now,

it's the British flag. And
then the flag of Portugal.

- [Doreen Garner] Those are
just two of a few countries

that were leading in the
transatlantic slave trade.

These two pieces are going
to a solo show in Austria,

and I don't want to put a
bunch of bloody Black bodies

just by themselves as
entertainment. So I want them

to think about ways that their whiteness,

adds to racism experienced
throughout the globe,

regardless of whether they think

that they're involved or not.

A lot of Europeans are like, no,

we don't do that over
here. It's like, well,

y'all started this shit.

This piece is a smallpox piece.

And then this one is more syphilis.

Working now with white flesh,
it's been really difficult

making the adjustment color-wise.

There has been a complete
shift in my palette

and figuring out what looks human.

I've been getting so frustrated

with trying to get white
people's skin tone right.

And I was explaining
this to my friend Nene,

and she was like, oh, you know,

I totally feel you because for so long,

they've gotten our skin tone wrong.

And it just sent chills because

I think about all the
ways that Black people

have been misrepresented aesthetically

and they're totally wrong and offensive.

And so it's really crazy for me

to actively try to get
their skin tone right,

when there hasn't been the
same amount of consideration

in ways that they represent us.

The piece that I did for Basel

did kind of focus more on whiteness.

And focusing on whiteness for that piece,

people read as a more
abstract and you know,

that the piece hasn't sold yet,

not to say that it won't sell,

but just thinking about ways
that pieces that I've made

that have had Black
bodies have sold faster,

you know, something to think about.

- [Doreen Garner] I
mean, that's the thing is

I'm not really trying to
shit on the art world.

It just makes me feel viscerally
uncomfortable sometimes.

And that can come in social
anxiety at exhibition,

or staying up all night,

trying to prepare files for an application

that I might get denied for.

And what does that do to me? You know,

it's like constantly setting
up yourself for denial.

Seems kind of unhealthy,
right? Mentally unhealthy.

And I think that's why
I really enjoy tattooing

because I don't have to think
about that stuff anymore.

I'm just interacting with that one person

for a few hours.

It's not rooted in acceptance or denial.

- [Doreen Garner] You ready Debbie?

- [Debbie Snax] Yeah.

- [Doreen Garner] We're gonna put it on.

We met on the internet.

Debbie is a tattooer from Atlanta

and now we're like little tattoo besties.

- [Debbie Snax] Being a
traditional tattooer is mostly a,

it's a traditional white
thing to do. You know?

So most of the time, if I
find people who are kind of

on my same level then they're white.

So being around Doreen
has made me want to,

not transform myself
into more Black, but just

it's made me more comfortable
with drawing Black things.

- [Doreen] The community that
I have in the tattoo world,

you know they're just more my people.

Very weird. You know weird, tattooed.

(laughing)

- [Doreen] I love it, I love it.

- [Off Camera] Oh my god,
I hate this, I hate this.

- Oh my gosh

(laughter)

- [Debbie Snax] When you
first became into yourself,

did you think you would be a tattooer?

- [Doreen Garner] No, I mean, I always,

I was always such a shy nerd.

And I never thought, I
mean I had always hoped

that I would be covered in tattoos

and a lot of gold jewelry.

You know, now that it's happening,

I'm about it.

- [Debbie Snax] Right,
it's a cute little vibe.

- [Doreen Garner] It's a cute little vibe.

- [Debbie Snax] Yeah (laughs)

[Doreen Garner] Then with tattooing,

it allows people to collect my work.

You know, they wouldn't
necessarily be able

to buy a 50 inch flag made of flesh

and put on their wall, you know.

Most of the people that I tattoo

have no idea that I'm a sculptor

and to what degree my art practice goes.

If you are Black, melanated and tattooed,

we're going to be taking some photographs

of Black people that have tattoos,

because there's not a lot of documentation

of Black people with tattoos.

- [Interviewee] I'm sure,

everybody here has been tatted by Doreen.

- [Off camera] They have.

- [Interviewee] Including yourself?

- [Off Camera] No, I'm
the last one standing.

- [Interviewee] This is not good.

- [Doreen Garner] You
know, with my tattoos,

I'm just trying to create the images

that Black people wanna
get on their body, forever.

Things that they resonate with,

things that make them feel beautiful.