34C3 - The Snowden Refugees under Surveillance in Hong Kong

[Music]

Herald: So: since the Snowden movies, or

movie, and documentations, we know there
were many really, really awesome people

involved in the escape of Edward Snowden.
Today, we will hear a little bit more

about the personal sacrifices and big
risks these people took to shelter and

protect Edward Snowden. So, first, I will
give you Sönke Iwersen. An applause

for him please. He will start the whole
thing with a little bit of backstory,

after that we will have Robert Tibbo and
live on the screen, Edward Snowden; I'm

looking forward to it. But first, a big
applause again for Sönke Iwersen.

Applause — Iwersen: Good evening,
my name is Sönke Iwersen.

I'm a journalist for the German
Handelsblatt, and today the story I will tell

you is, you could put it on the motto “No
deed, no good deed, goes unpunished”.

In German: “Keine gute Tat bleibt
ungestraft”. It’s about 100 years old

and it holds true for Mr. Snowden, who is
now still in his exile in Moscow, and whom

Mr. Trump would like to shoot—those are
his words. And it also holds true for the

people who've helped Edward Snowden,
during a time when nobody able … nobody

else was able to help him. And these
people are still suffering under inhuman

conditions. You can see them here, I will
give you the names in a few seconds. To

start, this is the most famous story that
has been told of Edward Snowden. The movie

Citizenfour by lawyer Laura Poitras, a
very good movie. But there's a hole in the

story—let's see. Let's go back for just
a few seconds to June 10th, 2013. which is

the first day all of us here have ever
heard the name Edward Snowden. It was the

day that his interview was streamed by the
Guardian, and he uncovered the massive

surveillance of the US and the entire
world by the US government. And their

intelligence systems. And, well, this is
the Mira hotel, the interview took place

at that hotel. He was hiding here. In room
1014. This is a scene from the movie where

you can see him just after he realizes
that he doesn't know what to do next. He's

just been interviewed. This is the morning
after the interview. And the journalists

have left—Greenwald has left, he can't
go back because people like me, other

journalists have been… they have found him.
And they would follow him back to Snowden

if he went back to the hotel. So Laura
Poitras is filming this, but she can't

help him. And in the movie, there's a skip—
there's … it just skips over 14 days. The

next famous scene we have all seen
is Edward Snowden at the Hong Kong

International Airport—he's back
actually, holding a ticket to Moscow in

his hand. And that's it. The next time
we saw him again was in Moscow … we

saw pictures of him was in Moscow. But
that was 14 years later. So I don't know

about you, but I was always … had I for a
long time I've been wondering—well, how

did he do that? 14 days, the most hunted
man on the planet, the NSA, CIA, Hong Kong

police, all my colleagues—we're all
looking for him, but nobody found him. So

where did he go? And who helped him? And I
was lucky enough, two years ago, to meet

the people who hid Edward Snowden. It's
very … it was hard for me to believe at first

that these people were actually able to do
that and … but the next things that happen

may be even harder to believe. I'll just
introduce them quickly, because we're

coming to the main show in a few minutes.
This is Ajit—he's a former Sri Lankan

soldier. He has been stranded in Hong
Kong. While he was; his backstory: he

was captured by the military, he
was tortured, twice, then he was smuggled

into Hong Kong and his smuggler left him
without his passport in the middle of

Hong Kong. And Ajit was stranded there
and has been stranded there for … I think

since 2005 now. And in 2013, he met by
pure chance Edward Snowden, who was a

refugee at that time, suddenly, himself.
And Ajit became Snowden's bodyguard for

those two weeks in Hong Kong. He had
military training, there wasn't any

shootouts, but Ajit made sure that Snowden
stayed safe and was not found and

detected. This is Supun—another refugee.
He's also from Sri Lanka, he was also

tortured, beaten by the police and fled to
Hong Kong. His wife Nadeeka—she was

tortured, raped, beaten, when she went to
the police, she was sent out and beaten in

front of the police station again. So she
also fled, and in Hong Kong she met Supun

and they had these children. Sethumdi, the
daughter on the right, and Dinath, he was

just maybe six months when I met him two
years ago. This is Vanessa. Vanessa is a

Filipina—she was also raped in … at her
home. The police wouldn't help her because

her rapist had political connections, and
after trying several times, she finally

made it to Hong Kong where she applied for
asylum and never got it. Asylum seekers in

Hong Kong are not like asylum seekers here
—they have no rights at all, hardly any

help, they're not allowed to work, they get
food stamps. But for example, no stamps

for diapers if you have children, small
children. So what do you do if you don't get …

You're not allowed to work,
you're not allowed to steal.

If you're caught working, you can
be jailed for 22 months.

Which is longer than you
can be jailed for drug trafficking.

That's her daughter, Nadeeka. Vanessa did
a lot for Edward Snowden. She

would … she hid his passport—she cooked
for him, she brought in the newspaper, and

she and her daughter sang birthday songs
for Edward Snowden's 30th birthday. So how

did this all come out? Why, why was I able
to find this story? In 2016 this movie

came out—another movie, but this time a
fictional, part-fictional, part-documentary

maybe by Oliver Stone. And it was clear
that the refugees would play a part in

this movie. So, after a long time of
thinking, they were willing to talk to a

journalist and have their story be told
rather than rely on a Hollywood director.

So here you have the two main actors
—Joseph Gordon-Levitt on the left

and Shailene Woodley, and of course
director Oliver Stone on the right. And

now, we come to the most important
people of the night—on the left,

Edward Snowden. And on the right, his
lawyer in Hong Kong, who made all this

possible. Because, of course, four
refugees in Hong Kong couldn't just meet

Edward Snowden on the street. It was this
man, Robert Tibbo, who brought them

together. It was a coincidence, again. He
was called out of the blue on the morning

of the 10th of June in 2013 because Edward
Snowden didn't know what to do, and

nobody, neither Snoden nor any of the
Guardian people had planned how to, what

to do on the next morning. So, this lawyer
was called up—a human rights lawyer who

has been working with refugees. And the
cases of Ajit, Nadeeka, Supun, and Vanessa

for years. And when he was suddenly tasked
with finding a solution for this

unbelievable problem—hiding the most
sought-after, the most wanted man on the

planet, he came up with this crazy idea:
well, let's hide them with other refugees.

Let's hide them, let's hide Mr. Snowden
where nobody would ever look—in the

slums of Hong Kong. And it worked. For
two weeks, Edward Snowden hid in the tiny

apartments with sometimes no bathrooms,
and was undetected by the entire Secret

Service force of several nations. And,
well, when I found this, I do what most

journalists would do—I wrote a very long
story. This was in 2016, we named it

“Snowdens Geheimnis”—Snowden's Secret—,
and I detailed all the stories of Vanessa,

Supun, Ajit, and Nadeeka, and how they
met and saved Edward Snowden. So the

story was very well received—a lot of
calls came in wanting to donate, people

wanted to donate all over the world
really because we also put out a English

version of this. And we were able to
funnel a lot of money to the refugees. Of

course not enough, but more than before.
And just briefly, Rob told me to

put this up here—it was awarded the
Kurt Tucholsky award this year, and …

[Applause]
Thank you. This is one year ago, not here,

but in Hamburg. Same place, another time.
When Rob and I told the story to the CCC

audience for the first time and things
were actually looking up—we were getting

money, we had connections to lawyers in
Canada who wanted to bring them to Canada,

because these people cannot stay in Hong
Kong. But as I said before—no good deed

goes unpunished, and it hasn't. And I
would like to now call Robert onto the

stage, because what happens next will
show you that certain governments in this

world do not want people to help those
in need. On the contrary, if you help

somebody who's in danger for his life, you
will get punished yourself. I think that's

the story, that's the lesson that is being
taught right now, and has been taught

for the last two years ever since
this story became public. Rob?

[Applause]
Robert Tibbo: Well thank you, thank you

for being here tonight. And thank you so
much for the interest that you have in my

clients. Mr. Snowden, of course, but also
the seven refugees who acted to protect

the world's most significant
whistleblower. Now what I'd like to do is

like to start from where I left off last
year. And this, the slide that you have

here, was on the same day—the same date
last year. And what has not been disclosed

is after this talk a year ago I had left
the auditorium, and I received phone calls

from Hong Kong. The Sri Lankan police had
flown into Hong Kong, the Criminal

Investigation Division, targeting the
Snowden refugees—seeking to engage them.

Immediately, we took action: a legal team
and those people helping the Snowden

refugees to move them to safe houses. So
what I'd like to do is to go through

what's happened to the Snowden refugees
this last year, because they've had a

terrible time. They've been targeted by
the Sri Lankan government, and they've

been targeted by the Hong Kong government,
and they've been punished by the Hong Kong

government. Simply for their association
with Mr. Snowden. Last September, their

seven cases were called up by the
Immigration Department after the

Immigration Department just ignored their
cases for about five years. And their

cases had nothing in common in terms of
the incidents in their home countries, but

the time that they were targeted for
persecution or torture, ill-treatment. The

time they left Sri Lanka in the
Philippines. And even the time they were

in Hong Kong when they raised their
refugee and asylum claims. And the only

factor that they had in common was the
kindness, humanity, empathy, and

compassion they showed Mr. Snowden. And
the Hong Kong government, instead of

recognizing the extraordinary deeds they
did, instead took the opposite approach.

And last September, the Hong Kong
government utilized different departments

to punish the Snowden refugees. Vanessa,
Supun, Nadeeka went to the Social Welfare

Department, which uses a Swiss contractor
—International Social Services. And when

they went there to get the little
financial support they're given which does

not meet their basic needs, International
Social Services, on behalf of the Social

Welfare department, started asking them
about Mr. Snowden in private, information

about Mr. Snowden. And these extraordinary
people told the government that they're

not going to breach Mr. Snowden's
confidence. So they were punished—they

had their food taken away from them, they
had their housing taken away from them,

transport money. The little girl in
the front, on the right hand side,

($NAME), she was denied access to
education for one year. The little girl on

the left, Vanessa's daughter, Kiana - she
was denied education as well. And

fortunately there was an extraordinary
group in Hong Kong who ran a private

school who brought her in. So through last
September to December, the only assistance

they had from the government was stripped
away simply because they refused to

answer questions about Mr. Snowden. Now
parallel to this time, in Sri Lanka, the

Sri Lankan local government, the Sri
Lankan criminal investigation police

Criminal Investigation Division—
renowned for its use of torture as one of

its standard investigative tools in Sri
Lanka—and the military, went to Ajif

the soldier's house. Ajif is standing in
the middle, on my right-hand side. The

Sri Lankan police CID also went to Supun's
family's homes—they threatened the

families, they harassed the families, they
wanted the locations telephone numbers of

the families in Hong Kong, and they wanted
the names and telephone numbers and

addresses of the friends or people they
knew in Hong Kong. But the Snowden

refugees have extraordinary parents, and
they did not speak up. They refused to

assist, despite the threats.
[Applause]

With the Sri Lankan government using
oppressive means to get intelligence on my

clients in September and October, they
then flew into Hong Kong in October, and

through to December. And it was in
December that a number of witnesses

were able to find out the Sri Lankan
Criminal Investigation Division Department

were targeting my clients. Now, I
informed, as their lawyer, I informed the

Immigration Department. The Immigration
Department did nothing. We tried making a

complaint to the police, the Hong Kong
police. They just told us the Immigration

Department was conducting the
investigations. Which wasn't true. And

finally, by April, the Hong Kong police
agreed they would allow my clients to make

a formal complaint to the police about the
Sri Lankan police CID coming to Hong Kong.

And threatening their safety, their
security, and their lives. So for four

months, the Hong Kong government, the Hong
Kong police, failed to provide state

protection, they failed to investigate
they failed to act promptly. I brought my

clients in to the Hong Kong police to make
their complaint. The police didn't want to

take their complaint initially—they said
they had a few questions. And they had a

list of questions on a A4 size paper. They
asked my clients about Mr. Snowden. They

asked about Mr. Snowden's movements in
Hong Kong. The police's responsibilities

were to address the threat from the Sri
Lankan police, not asking questions about

Mr. Snowden's movements in June 2013.
Clearly, the police, as with the Social

Welfare Department, as with the contractor
ISS, has no interests in protecting and

providing support for my clients.
Their interest was to gather intelligence

on Mr. Snowden. I put a
stop to that—my

instructing solicitor Jonathan Man was
with me. And eventually police complaints

were made. But the police weren't
interested in investigating the Sri Lankan

police. I had it, I had put it to the
investigating officers—all you have to

do is to go to the Directorate of
immigrations office in Hong Kong, and ask

for the files of all Sri Lankan police
officers who travel to Hong Kong between

October and December 2016. That is because
every Sri Lankan who travels to Hong Kong

must obtain a visa from the Chinese
embassy in Colombo. They must provide a

photograph, and they must provide the
nature of their employment. Or who they're

employed by. And the police did nothing.
The Hong Kong government did nothing. And

it would have been a simple task—the
Hong Kong government could have said,

“there were no police officers coming to
Hong Kong from Sri Lanka at that time

because we have no records of such.”
And the fact that they didn't investigate

that, or at least disclose that they've
checked their files, indicates that

there's only one sole inference to be made
—that the Sri Lankan police were in fact

in Hong Kong. Aside from the fact that
there were a number of witnesses. Then, in

August of this year, the witnesses to the
Sri Lankan police coming to Hong Kong and

targeting the Snowden refugees were
grabbed by the police. They had committed

no crimes, they had done nothing wrong,
they were simply grabbed by six officers—

two immigration enforcement officers, four
police officers from the Criminal

Investigation Department in Hong Kong.
They were put into a van, and they were

held, unlawfully, on two days. And the
first question the police asked the first

detainee was about Mr. Snowden. And the
police were trying to make a case that the

Snowden refugees made up the story. In
October, I was informed that the Hong Kong

police finished the investigation and
there'd be no further investigation. But a

few weeks later another witness was
arrested by the Hong Kong police, again,

targeting the Snowden refugees and those
people acting for them. Now, why, why

would the Sri Lankan police be coming to
Hong Kong? And Hong Kong has a history of

allowing foreign agents to come into its
jurisdiction, and to target, engage, and

even extraordinarily rendition civilians
in Hong Kong. Sami al-Saadi in 2003,

Hong Kong assisted the UK and US
governments to have him rendition in a

private flight to Libya where he was
tortured. The booksellers in Hong Kong a

couple years ago were renditioned by the
mainland Chinese security, out of Hong

Kong in Thailand. And in January this year, a
Chinese billionaire, Xiao Jianhua, was taken

out of the Four Seasons Hotel, a Canadian
hotel, in Hong Kong. And renditioned

across the border—and he's disappeared.
So my clients have had a very hard time.

I've been targeted myself—the Hong Kong
director of immigration has sought to have

me removed from the cases. Has made
complaints to the Bar Association, and

without merit. They've reactivated dozens
of cases right before the Snowden refugee

appeals. The Hong Kong government has
simply acted egregiously and projecting

its authority with impunity. The Sri
Lankan police, I believe, came in to Hong

Kong simply because the Hong Kong
government has created an environment

where Hong Kong has not held any foreign
agent accountable for their unlawful

activities in Hong Kong. And by the way,
mainland China, the Chinese government, is

the biggest arms provider to the Sri
Lankan government. So they have a very

close military relationship there. Now,
strategy was put into place where we found

myself and the lawyers you can see in the
photo—on the far right hand side is

Jonathan Mann, beside him is Michael
Simkin from Canada, from Montreal Quebec,

Canada. Myself, originally from Montreal
Quebec, Canada. Marc-André Séguin, the lead

lawyer in Canada. And on the far left is
Francis Tourigny. They filed refugee claims

with the Canadian government, with the
Ministry of immigration; Ahmed Hussein, who

himself is a former refugee from Somalia.
In May, the Canadian government

communicated very clearly in writing that
they would expedite the screening of our

clients’ cases, aware that the situation
for our clients was serious and urgent. In

July of this year, the Canadian government
made a turnabout and said they would

assess the cases chronologically, which
takes 52 months. So on one hand the Hong

Kong government is simply trying to fast-
track and rush the screening process for

my clients in Hong Kong for their
asylum and refugee claims—

to deport them. And in Hong Kong, there's
an effective zero percent acceptance rate

of refugees in Hong Kong. Which is
extraordinary, and the UN Committee

Against Torture has said that this is …
has been very critical for the Hong Kong

government. So at this stage, these lawyers
are pushing the Canadian government to

have these cases decided in favour of
our clients, and to remind the Canadian

government that if the clients are removed
from Hong Kong, because the Canadian

government fails to act in time, the
Canadian refugee claims will extinguish.

Because the clients, once they return to
their home soil, they have no more refugee

claims. Under the Refugee Convention, you
must be outside of your home country.

Right, I'm gonna come to this last,
because the clients need support. And they

need support for food, for rent, because
the Hong Kong government is not providing

any of that. And we foresee that we we
have a continued battle through to 2018.

But at the same time, other the clients;
the clients will not be in Hong Kong by

the end of 2018. We, we know that as a
fact. They're either gonna be in their

home countries, or hopefully they'll be in
Canada. The one other thing I'd like to

mention is that when the Hong Kong police
grabbed the witnesses to the Snowden, for

the Snowden refugees, Sri Lankan police—
they took the cell phones from the

clients. From the re…, from the
witnesses, and they gained access to the

data in there. And they did that
unlawfully. So this is the environment in

Hong Kong. This is an environment where
police have acted with impunity against

the most vulnerable. Even to this day, the
Department of Justice in Hong Kong refuses

to believe that Mr. Snowden had ever met
the Snowden refugees—despite compelling

evidence. And it's an extraordinary and
bizarre situation in Hong Kong. But what

it is is, the government projecting its
power, and using it against the most

vulnerable. I'm going to stop here, and
what I would like to do now, is I'd like

to welcome my other client:
Mr. Edward Snowden.

[Applause]
Edward Snowden: So, we have a limited time.

Actually for the audio room—could you
cut my my feed for the room for a minute

while I speak—thank you. So, everything
that you've heard so far, is an indication

of the kind of things that hackers have
known about long before anybody else—we

are familiar with the fact that
governments abuse their power. We are

familiar with the fact, the idea, that
institutions, and the processes that we're

told to rely on don't always work as
promised. And the question is: Why is that?

What is a hacker? Why are you here?
You know, first of all, I have to thank

you, everyone, for coming to this talk,
because I know I had to be a long line.

And you're here to hear about the
individual plight of these incredibly

brave people: Supun, Nadeeka, Ajit, and
Vanessa and their children. Instead of,

one of a hundred other talks, which I'm
sure given this timeslot are incredibly

compelling and nobody wanted to miss. But
in this room, we have a thousand hackers

for human rights. And I would argue the
reason for that is because you care. And

this is important, right? This is no small
thing; this is not a platitude, this is

not to be cute, this is not lip service,
right? Because caring is the prerequisite

of progress—I don't care how smart you
are, I don't care how much talent you

have, I don't care how connected you are,
what your resources are, who your friends

are, where you went to school. All of
these capabilities are bottlenecked by a

single thing—and that is concern.
That is how much you care.

And you're here. These families
need our help. This is a problem that

needs to be solved,
and I can think of no

better to solve this than you, hackers,
right? Because it is that shared value

that we all have. Where we look at these
things, this, this this common sentiment,

this tribal value that defines all of us.
Regardless of how we feel about the

politics. Regardless, of you know, the one
guy out there in the audience who's like,

“Oh, I'm not gonna clap for this guy, he's
a Russian spy.” You know, we all know that

person. And that's okay, right? Because
what is a hacker? One who doubts. That

weirdo in the third row is that guy. Just
as the rest of us are. A hacker is one

skeptical of claims—that the system
works as promised, or even design, rather

than how it operates, as it's observed,
what we see. We take the risk every day of

our work, of being wrong—in order to be
right. In order to do right. In order to

fix problems. In order to discover things
people didn't know. Well, why, why did

people do that why risk wasting hours and
euros and verifying some random API or

running the fuzzer for weeks, just to see
what happens? And this is gonna sound like

the most arrogant statement you'll hear,
you know, all week. But it's because we

know better: all of us have reasons for
that doubt. That are different, but in each

one of us we share a lived experience that
planted a seed in us that grew into that

skepticism. That we should trust the
system. That we should rely upon the way

the world is, as it is, and accept that
that's just the way things are. That what

was promised is good enough. And boy,
ladies and gentlemen, what I say that this

year has proved the value of our skepticism.
What you've heard so far about

the familes, what you've heard so far
about the retaliation against Mr. Tibbo,

which I promise you, based on personal
knowledge, goes far deeper than what he

has said. Because he's kind of a
humble guy. But it is beyond

injustice. and it's travelling into
inhumanity, right? So we look to the

other side: Why? Why is the Hong Kong
government acting like this, right? Why

are these, you know, few people being
dragged through coals when the government

could very easily just say, “Okay fine, you
know, we know their names, they're in a

movie, we're just gonna let them pass,
well, we'll give them asylum.” Even though

in Hong Kong, the asylum admittance rate
is something less than 1%. In most

countries I think it's more than 30%,
but in Hong Kong it's less than 1%.

Nobody gets asylum. And the reason why
is because these people then become an

example—they show that there are things
that are wrong, they show that the system

is broke, and they show that things can
work better when people understand it.

When somebody shows the flaw, when these
people become the proof of concept—

suddenly there's pressure for change,
suddenly that caring begins.

And suddenly, progress seems realistic.
And just as in many other countries,

immigration, unfortunately, is a
politically contentious issue. Regardless

of whether these are, you know, economic
migrants, or whether these are people who

are legitimately flaming … fleeing torture
and violence, rape, and threats to life.

And this is why I think this is so
important. This is why I think it's so

important, to talk about this. To be
interested in this—even if you don't do

anything about it, although I absolutely
hope that you will do something about it.

Is because doubt is the first form of
dissent. We like to think of protest,

right? We like to think of, you know,
people making arguments. Constructing

them, writing, and sharing the debate. And
these things are important, but these all

grow from that initial impulse, that
initial skepticism, that initial doubt,

that just makes you go, “this doesn't seem
right!” Because if that doubt is powerful,

doubt is valuable, doubt is that
motivator. But doubt makes enemies, right?

And these people who doubted the
legitimacy of the Hong Kong government's

approaches to them: the threats,
the coercion, the attempts at subversion

to make them go against their initial
decision: that has made them enemies.

And now they face retaliation,
and now they need our help. So what do we

do? You know, we are, ultimately, just
people. We are technologists, we are

technicians. And we are a community of so
many others. You know, this is a difficult

case for some people who have deeply
conservative political values—I would

hope they are not the majority in the
room. But I want you to put yourself, just

for a second, in the shoes of these
people, these families, my friends, live

in desperate poverty. They did not have a
toilet that you sat on—it was a hole in

the floor. The kitchen sink was the
bathroom sink. The stove was a camp stove

in the bathroom. People rotated sleeping
on the floor because there weren't enough

beds. These are not people living in
glamorous circumstances. These are not

people exploiting this system, right.
These are not people trying to get

something for nothing. These are people
trying to make the most of what they have.

Trying to eke out an existence in a
difficult, competitive society that is not

their own. In a place where the language
is not their own. And trying to raise

children in, ultimately, hostile
circumstance and despite that, despite the

precarious situation in which they found
themselves, despite having nothing and

having no one but Mr. Tibbo to represent
them. And hope that one day, they would be

able to stay and have right to actually
just apply for a job—not even a

guarantee of work. Somebody showed up on
their doorstep. And imagine that was you,

and it's the most wanted man in the world.
And he needs help, right. Maybe he's the

worst person on earth, maybe he's the
best; you don't know. All you know is he's

hunted. These families knew what that was
like. They'd been there, they lived

through that. And because of that they
helped me get off the X. They risked a

lot. And I think, you know, so many people
say so negative things about refugees

today. They see them as the worst kind
of people. But I know for my lived

experience, right, my seed of doubt,
that there are cases that they're wrong.

And this is absolutely one of them—these
are some of the best people that I've ever

met, who have nothing but were willing to
risk everything for someone that they

didn't even know. Just because they knew
what it was like to need shelter. And so I

ask you, you know, think about what you
can do, in a small way. Maybe you can help

them, right. Maybe you can donate—we
have a website fortherefugees.com—it's a

fundraise for the family. But it's more
than that, right? Because this is not just

about what happens in this room, this is
not just about this individual case. These

problems are going to persist. Other
people are going to run into the same

challenges. And its going to be a question
of, who do they turn to, when they don't

have a movie to advocate for them, right?
And that's why I would say something that

frustrates me about what we have seen in
the advance of technologies just in these

last few years, is this used to be,
unfortunately, a very clubby community,

right? And it's broadened, we've got wider
participation, and that's awesome. But

with that, we've also seen a
commoditization of our work, of what we

do. We see people looking to land their
job at the Google, the Facebook. And to do

that, they sand down the sharp edges
of their own beliefs, of their own seeds,

of their own ideologies. We become more
likely to agree, rather than more likely

to argue. And I think we need to think
about what that means for the world when

we, and our occupation, our specialty in
this moment of history—the atomic moment

of computer science. Our work has never
been more important. You can't open a

newspaper without people talking about
cybersecurity, right? Cyber, cyber, cyber.

Because they don't know you should just
say computers; instead they want to invent

words, right? But the problem here is the
world is relying upon us; at the same time,

we are being pressured to be apolitical.
And ladies and gentlemen, I think that is

wrong, I think that is incorrect. I think
we have some of the brightest minds

in our communities, in this room.
And I think what you think, what you

believe, matters beyond what you can do
behind the keyboard. And I think what you

do behind the keyboard should be an
expression, an extension, of making that

real. Right, look around at the world:
look at the fact that we're having to come

together in conferences, and we're having
to hold largely off-topic conversations to

meet the basic needs of brave people. But
can we make that system better? And can we

do that on a broader stage than what we
have here, we're not even talking about

refugees—we're talking about the entire
body of humanity. I think we can, and I

think we should. We've seen progress,
we've seen where we have actually made

constructive advances here. You see in the
United States there's always this constant

talk about encryption, government spying
backdoors into it; the FBI is having to

beg on both knees corporations not to use
secure communications. It was not so very

long ago, ladies and gentlemen, that that
would have seemed like a joke. The

governments would have simply presumed
that they could have banned this easily,

they could have made the rule, set the
rules, and we would have to live by them.

Without even having a chance to consider
whether they were right or wrong, simply

because it was their sovereign decision.
But we are now a part of that sovereign:

this world is larger. Our ability to be
involved in our societies, our

democracies, and more broadly across
borders, our world is larger. And with

this role we need to be thinking about
what we can do. Maybe you're not a lawyer,

right? Maybe you have no influence in Hong
Kong; God knows I don't, right? Maybe we

can't guarantee the courts will be fair.
Maybe we cannot guarantee that the police

are going to be accurate. Maybe we cannot
guarantee that the government is going to

serve the people. But maybe we can ensure
that we don't need them to. And that is a

revolutionary idea. But it's a basic idea,
it's an old idea,

it's one that's as old as hacking itself.

We don't want to be told what to do. And
that's not to say that all government is

the enemy that's, not to say that we
shouldn't do anything at all. That doesn't

mean that, you know, all rules are bad.
But all rules should be challenged, all

rules should be proven. All implementations
should be tested. And that

goes beyond APIs, ladies and gentlemen.
And I hope, based on this you will help

Ajit, Supun, Nadeeka, Vanessa and their
kids. And I hope, ladies and gentlemen,

you will not stop there.
Thank you very much.

[Applause]
Edward Snowden: Just to be clear, I have

no audio, but I can see you. Thank you.
[Applause]

Robert Tibbo: Thank you,
thank you so much, Ed.

Edward Snowden: And thank you, thank you.
I don't know if we have time for

questions: I can't hear real well. Robert,
if you want to take them or anyone else.

Or if we're behind schedule—I know CCC is
always tight—we can move on to the next …

Robert Tibbo: Well there's two things.

I think, I think probably, there should be
at least one question for you tonight. But

the Snowden refugees are gonna …
they're gonna come on screen right after

Ed answers the question. So you're gonna
have an opportunity to meet all seven of

Ed Snowden, Snowden's guardians or
guardian angels. So one question

Edward Snowden: And if I could ask the CCC
technical team: if you could type this for

me, that would help, because
I can't hear at all.

Question: Hi, so, thank you. So Russian
President Putin has said multiple times

that you met with Russian officials in
Hong Kong? At what point did that happen,

and, if it was during you staying with the
refugees, how did that work?

Edward Snowden: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear
the question but I think it was something

about the Russians, right? And so I'm glad
somebody asked, because this gets into the

whole doubting thing, right? Of course
we're gonna get the Russian question,

right? Well look, a lot of people are
interested in this, and a lot of people

wonder, because there's all of these
conspiracy theories out here. It's it's a

fabulous wonderful thing that we have
this skepticism, but it should also be

reasonable, right? Whenever we look at
argumentation, whenever we look at doubt,

there's this ancient rule. Which is,
that which is asserted without evidence

must be dismissed without evidence.
Because otherwise, we're wasting our time

We don't just want to be engaged in
speculation. There was a whole book

written by some crazy guy that was this
missing days theory, right? Where like

before I was even at the Mira, I was
secretly sneaking around with the

Russians, and it simply didn't happen.
They said I wasn't at the Mira hotel, I

had a, like, some handler or somebody like
that in in Hong Kong. And I was staying

with them. But the funny thing is we
actually had hotel receipts, right? So

this book comes out and we published them
and then they're like, “Oh! But you know,

maybe we just got it wrong, maybe it was a
little bit whatever.” But the reality is,

guys, look: what makes more sense, when we
talk about doubt? The idea that a guy

who's making a hell of a lot of money
without a high school degree in the United

States, working at the NSA, working at the
CIA; in Hawaii with a, living with a

beautiful woman that he loves very much,
that he's been together for years, is gonna

set his life on fire to go run off to Russia,
right? Particularly when his argument is

primarily against surveillance. Does that
make sense, okay? And then going beyond

this: if that's the case, right, and he
is a Russian spy: why in the hell does he

go to Hong Kong, first, right? Why doesn't
he just fly to Moscow, right? But setting

that aside, we got all these double games
and these wheels within wheels where I

didn't even choose to be in Russia. I had
a transit ticket that was just supposed to

be a layover for like 12 hours or
something like that in Moscow, en-route to

Latin America. And this is publicly known!
This isn't, like, speculation, this

isn't assertion. It's documented fact; you
can still go on Twitter and find pictures

of the plane to Cuba that was packed full
of journalists taking pictures of my empty

seat and Aeroflot leaked the ticket,
right, where where I was in it

or whatever. But it just goes on and on.
We got this continuing today, where I

just released a new app with the
freedom of the press foundation and

the Guardian project. Maybe some
of you guys have heard about it.

It's called Haven. It's an Android app, right,

It's completely open-source. It's free,
it's not for pay, there's no profit motive

in this. And we had, like, some former CIA
guys out there go into the meeting going,

“There's no way this isn't a Russian
government backdoor!” First of all, guys,

it's open source. It's … the program's
not that big, it's in Java. Just go look

at the code yourself. It's not there. But
even, even if it were there, it could be

there or wherever, guess how many lines of
code I wrote on Haven, guys. Zero, right?

I'm not a developer. I'm not trying to be.
The person you want to thank is Nate

Freitas. Who is, by the way, an American.
He's not a Russian, I don't think he's

even ever been to Russia. I don't even
have access to the git repo, specifically

to avoid people being able to make these
arguments. To try to undermine the

application. So even if I were a Russian
spy, right? Even if this were some sneaky

trick, planned the long game to try to get
into people's phones. How would that even

work, right? So just to answer the
question formally I would say: thank you

for being doubtful, thank you for being
skeptical, but at the same time, don't be

crazy. Thank you.
[Applause]

Robert Tibbo: Alright the, the next group
of people will be the Snowden refugees.

They're gonna come on in about a minute,
and there are a few things I also wanted

to disclose to you and … help you
understand that the Hong Kong government

has taken a view in all the cases I've
done, that the Philippines in Sri Lanka

are safe countries that have rule of law
and provide state protection. And that

couldn't be further from the truth. So
very quickly, under the President

Duterte's, and I would call it an
authoritarian regime, in the Philippines,

he's instituted martial law in Mindanao.
He successfully, in December, had that

extended for a year, but without lawful
basis. He broke off. He actually

ordered emergency … a state of emergency
across the country earlier this year.

Over 10,000 people have lost their lives
in the name of his drug war. Which

in fact, is just a façade for basically
creating fear in the Philippines. And he's

expanded that war on drugs targeting
politicians, journalists, and political

activists. And only a few months ago, he
threatened the United Nations Special

Rapporteur on or extrajudicial killings
and summary executions by telling her that

if he sees her he's going to slap her in
the face. He's a self-confessed murderer.

He broke off negotiations, peace talks,
with the New People's Army—and this is

the group that persecuted Vanessa. And
here are my clients.

[Applause]
Robert Tibbo: Vanessa, Supun, Nadeeka,

Ajit: can you hear everybody?
Daughter: Hi!

Robert Tibbo: Alright, so what I'd like to
do is, I'd like to open this up to Q&A. So

if you'd like … if you have any questions
for my clients, they'd be more than happy

to to try to answer your questions.
[Silence followed by laughter]

Robert Tibbo: Don't be afraid! All right,
so. So Vanessa's from the Philippines, and

the other three adults are from Sri Lanka.
And so we've been doing everything to keep

their cases alive in Hong Kong, and also
advocating to the Canadian government to,

to act quickly, to act promptly. A couple
things I'll mention about the Snowden

refugees is that I raised their asylum
claims for the children under the United

Nations Convention on rights of the child.
And the Hong Kong government had signed

that International Convention, but decided
that they didn't have to follow it. They

said, because we didn't incorporate it
into domestic legislation, these children

don't have the benefit on the UN
Convention and rights to the child. And

refused to assess their asylum claims on
that basis. So Hong Kong, they're without

a doubt, the richest jurisdiction in the
world. This is how they view the treatment

of the vulnerable, but in particular,
vulnerable children. Vanessa, is there

anything you'd like to say? Oh are there
questions? Yes, please.

Question: Yes, I think the German
government should be ash… the German

government should be ashamed that
Edward Snowden cannot come here

as a political refugee. Would it be helpful
if we pressure the German government

to give political refugee status to
Edward Snowden's guardian angels?

If the Canadian government is
not moving fast enough, maybe

we can get the German government
to move fast enough?

[Applause]
Robert Tibbo: Vanessa, Supun; the question

is: if Canada doesn't act, would you
like it if the German government is

asked to act? To provide asylum to you
and the other families.

[Silence}
Robert Tibbo: Can you hear? Are you able

to hear us? I think we've lost the sound.
Yes definitely, definitely.

[Applause]
There are only seven Snowden refugees in

the world. Who did the extraordinary. And
as you learned tonight, their families in

Sri Lanka did the extraordinary. To
protect Edward Snowden. Because they knew

it was the right thing to do. And without
without hesitation. There; it is

extraordinary that in this world today,
that there's no room for seven refugees.

No room. These specific extraordinary
people. And, it's just, it would be an

easy one step forward by the German
government to offer them asylum. There's

another question, I think,
from number seven.

Mic 7: Yeah hi—I just wanted to say
thank you to the refugees for their

bravecy… their bravery.
[Applause]

Mic 7: For our privacy. And also ask,
given the difficulties of your situation

before you met this man:
What compelled you to help him?

Robert Tibbo: Can you guys hear the
question? Can you hear? It looks like

we've lost the sound again. There we go,
it sounds working. All right, can you, can

you hear? Can you hear?
Vanessa: Now we can hear you

Robert Tibbo: You can hear now right? Why
did you help Mr. Snowden? Vanessa, why did

you all, why did you all help mr. Snowden?
Vanessa: Because he needs help, and we

were able to help him.
[Applause]

Robert Tibbo: And now after everything
that's happened over the last five years,

would you do it again?
Vanessa: Yes

[Applause]
Mic 7: Thank you

Robert Tibbo: All right, we're gonna leave
you, leave you for the evening, Vanessa,

Supun, Nadeeka, Ajit, Satum, Kiana.
Thank you so much for showing up tonight.

[Applause]
Robert Tibbo: I need to get one more slide

up.
Herald: It's up, it's up

Robert Tibbo: Thank you. If you go to
fortherefugees site, it's a new site

that's been launched as of today. And it
has a variety of options if you'd like to

donate. And we ask you to help. These
families need help. And the money goes to

them—it doesn't go to the lawyers, it
doesn't go to administrators, it all goes

to the families 100%. And there's Bitcoin,
credit card. Tap, there, there's different

ways you can get the cash to the families,
yes. There can be telegraphic transfers,

and somebody here in Leipzig could could
accept the cash and send it on to

fortherefugees in Montreal. And so I'll
leave it at that, I think we're over time

Herald: Yeah, we're a little bit over time.
Thank you very much, once again, great

talk
[Applause]

[Music]

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