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[Music]

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Herald: So: since the Snowden movies, or

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movie, and documentations, we know there
were many really, really awesome people

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involved in the escape of Edward Snowden.
Today, we will hear a little bit more

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about the personal sacrifices and big
risks these people took to shelter and

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protect Edward Snowden. So, first, I will
give you Sönke Iwersen. An applause

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for him please. He will start the whole
thing with a little bit of backstory,

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after that we will have Robert Tibbo and
live on the screen, Edward Snowden; I'm

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looking forward to it. But first, a big
applause again for Sönke Iwersen.

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<i>Applause</i> — Iwersen: Good evening,
my name is Sönke Iwersen.

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I'm a journalist for the German
Handelsblatt, and today the story I will tell

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you is, you could put it on the motto “No
deed, no good deed, goes unpunished”.

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In German: “Keine gute Tat bleibt
ungestraft”. It’s about 100 years old

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and it holds true for Mr. Snowden, who is
now still in his exile in Moscow, and whom

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Mr. Trump would like to shoot—those are
his words. And it also holds true for the

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people who've helped Edward Snowden,
during a time when nobody able … nobody

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else was able to help him. And these
people are still suffering under inhuman

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conditions. You can see them here, I will
give you the names in a few seconds. To

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start, this is the most famous story that
has been told of Edward Snowden. The movie

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Citizenfour by lawyer Laura Poitras, a
very good movie. But there's a hole in the

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story—let's see. Let's go back for just
a few seconds to June 10th, 2013. which is

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the first day all of us here have ever
heard the name Edward Snowden. It was the

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day that his interview was streamed by the
Guardian, and he uncovered the massive

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surveillance of the US and the entire
world by the US government. And their

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intelligence systems. And, well, this is
the Mira hotel, the interview took place

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at that hotel. He was hiding here. In room
1014. This is a scene from the movie where

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you can see him just after he realizes
that he doesn't know what to do next. He's

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just been interviewed. This is the morning
after the interview. And the journalists

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have left—Greenwald has left, he can't
go back because people like me, other

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journalists have been… they have found him.
And they would follow him back to Snowden

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if he went back to the hotel. So Laura
Poitras is filming this, but she can't

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help him. And in the movie, there's a skip—
there's … it just skips over 14 days. The

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next famous scene we have all seen
is Edward Snowden at the Hong Kong

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International Airport—he's back
actually, holding a ticket to Moscow in

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his hand. And that's it. The next time
we saw him again was in Moscow … we

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saw pictures of him was in Moscow. But
that was 14 years later. So I don't know

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about you, but I was always … had I for a
long time I've been wondering—well, how

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did he do that? 14 days, the most hunted
man on the planet, the NSA, CIA, Hong Kong

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police, all my colleagues—we're all
looking for him, but nobody found him. So

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where did he go? And who helped him? And I
was lucky enough, two years ago, to meet

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the people who hid Edward Snowden. It's
very … it was hard for me to believe at first

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that these people were actually able to do
that and … but the next things that happen

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may be even harder to believe. I'll just
introduce them quickly, because we're

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coming to the main show in a few minutes.
This is Ajit—he's a former Sri Lankan

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soldier. He has been stranded in Hong
Kong. While he was; his backstory: he

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was captured by the military, he
was tortured, twice, then he was smuggled

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into Hong Kong and his smuggler left him
without his passport in the middle of

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Hong Kong. And Ajit was stranded there
and has been stranded there for … I think

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since 2005 now. And in 2013, he met by
pure chance Edward Snowden, who was a

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refugee at that time, suddenly, himself.
And Ajit became Snowden's bodyguard for

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those two weeks in Hong Kong. He had
military training, there wasn't any

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shootouts, but Ajit made sure that Snowden
stayed safe and was not found and

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detected. This is Supun—another refugee.
He's also from Sri Lanka, he was also

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tortured, beaten by the police and fled to
Hong Kong. His wife Nadeeka—she was

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tortured, raped, beaten, when she went to
the police, she was sent out and beaten in

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front of the police station again. So she
also fled, and in Hong Kong she met Supun

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and they had these children. Sethumdi, the
daughter on the right, and Dinath, he was

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just maybe six months when I met him two
years ago. This is Vanessa. Vanessa is a

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Filipina—she was also raped in … at her
home. The police wouldn't help her because

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her rapist had political connections, and
after trying several times, she finally

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made it to Hong Kong where she applied for
asylum and never got it. Asylum seekers in

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Hong Kong are not like asylum seekers here
—they have no rights at all, hardly any

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help, they're not allowed to work, they get
food stamps. But for example, no stamps

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for diapers if you have children, small
children. So what do you do if you don't get …

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You're not allowed to work,
you're not allowed to steal.

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If you're caught working, you can
be jailed for 22 months.

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Which is longer than you
can be jailed for drug trafficking.

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That's her daughter, Nadeeka. Vanessa did
a lot for Edward Snowden. She

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would … she hid his passport—she cooked
for him, she brought in the newspaper, and

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she and her daughter sang birthday songs
for Edward Snowden's 30th birthday. So how

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did this all come out? Why, why was I able
to find this story? In 2016 this movie

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came out—another movie, but this time a
fictional, part-fictional, part-documentary

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maybe by Oliver Stone. And it was clear
that the refugees would play a part in

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this movie. So, after a long time of
thinking, they were willing to talk to a

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journalist and have their story be told
rather than rely on a Hollywood director.

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So here you have the two main actors
—Joseph Gordon-Levitt on the left

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and Shailene Woodley, and of course
director Oliver Stone on the right. And

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now, we come to the most important
people of the night—on the left,

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Edward Snowden. And on the right, his
lawyer in Hong Kong, who made all this

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possible. Because, of course, four
refugees in Hong Kong couldn't just meet

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Edward Snowden on the street. It was this
man, Robert Tibbo, who brought them

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together. It was a coincidence, again. He
was called out of the blue on the morning

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of the 10th of June in 2013 because Edward
Snowden didn't know what to do, and

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nobody, neither Snoden nor any of the
Guardian people had planned how to, what

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to do on the next morning. So, this lawyer
was called up—a human rights lawyer who

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has been working with refugees. And the
cases of Ajit, Nadeeka, Supun, and Vanessa

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for years. And when he was suddenly tasked
with finding a solution for this

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unbelievable problem—hiding the most
sought-after, the most wanted man on the

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planet, he came up with this crazy idea:
well, let's hide them with other refugees.

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Let's hide them, let's hide Mr. Snowden
where nobody would ever look—in the

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slums of Hong Kong. And it worked. For
two weeks, Edward Snowden hid in the tiny

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apartments with sometimes no bathrooms,
and was undetected by the entire Secret

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Service force of several nations. And,
well, when I found this, I do what most

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journalists would do—I wrote a very long
story. This was in 2016, we named it

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“Snowdens Geheimnis”—Snowden's Secret—,
and I detailed all the stories of Vanessa,

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Supun, Ajit, and Nadeeka, and how they
met and saved Edward Snowden. So the

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story was very well received—a lot of
calls came in wanting to donate, people

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wanted to donate all over the world
really because we also put out a English

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version of this. And we were able to
funnel a lot of money to the refugees. Of

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course not enough, but more than before.
And just briefly, Rob told me to

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put this up here—it was awarded the
Kurt Tucholsky award this year, and …

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[Applause]
Thank you. This is one year ago, not here,

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but in Hamburg. Same place, another time.
When Rob and I told the story to the CCC

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audience for the first time and things
were actually looking up—we were getting

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money, we had connections to lawyers in
Canada who wanted to bring them to Canada,

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because these people cannot stay in Hong
Kong. But as I said before—no good deed

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goes unpunished, and it hasn't. And I
would like to now call Robert onto the

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stage, because what happens next will
show you that certain governments in this

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world do not want people to help those
in need. On the contrary, if you help

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somebody who's in danger for his life, you
will get punished yourself. I think that's

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the story, that's the lesson that is being
taught right now, and has been taught

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for the last two years ever since
this story became public. Rob?

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[Applause]
Robert Tibbo: Well thank you, thank you

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for being here tonight. And thank you so
much for the interest that you have in my

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clients. Mr. Snowden, of course, but also
the seven refugees who acted to protect

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the world's most significant
whistleblower. Now what I'd like to do is

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like to start from where I left off last
year. And this, the slide that you have

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here, was on the same day—the same date
last year. And what has not been disclosed

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is after this talk a year ago I had left
the auditorium, and I received phone calls

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from Hong Kong. The Sri Lankan police had
flown into Hong Kong, the Criminal

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Investigation Division, targeting the
Snowden refugees—seeking to engage them.

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Immediately, we took action: a legal team
and those people helping the Snowden

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refugees to move them to safe houses. So
what I'd like to do is to go through

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what's happened to the Snowden refugees
this last year, because they've had a

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terrible time. They've been targeted by
the Sri Lankan government, and they've

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been targeted by the Hong Kong government,
and they've been punished by the Hong Kong

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government. Simply for their association
with Mr. Snowden. Last September, their

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seven cases were called up by the
Immigration Department after the

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Immigration Department just ignored their
cases for about five years. And their

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cases had nothing in common in terms of
the incidents in their home countries, but

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the time that they were targeted for
persecution or torture, ill-treatment. The

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time they left Sri Lanka in the
Philippines. And even the time they were

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in Hong Kong when they raised their
refugee and asylum claims. And the only

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factor that they had in common was the
kindness, humanity, empathy, and

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compassion they showed Mr. Snowden. And
the Hong Kong government, instead of

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recognizing the extraordinary deeds they
did, instead took the opposite approach.

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And last September, the Hong Kong
government utilized different departments

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to punish the Snowden refugees. Vanessa,
Supun, Nadeeka went to the Social Welfare

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Department, which uses a Swiss contractor
—International Social Services. And when

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they went there to get the little
financial support they're given which does

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not meet their basic needs, International
Social Services, on behalf of the Social

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Welfare department, started asking them
about Mr. Snowden in private, information

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about Mr. Snowden. And these extraordinary
people told the government that they're

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not going to breach Mr. Snowden's
confidence. So they were punished—they

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had their food taken away from them, they
had their housing taken away from them,

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transport money. The little girl in
the front, on the right hand side,

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($NAME), she was denied access to
education for one year. The little girl on

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the left, Vanessa's daughter, Kiana - she
was denied education as well. And

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fortunately there was an extraordinary
group in Hong Kong who ran a private

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school who brought her in. So through last
September to December, the only assistance

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they had from the government was stripped
away simply because they refused to

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answer questions about Mr. Snowden. Now
parallel to this time, in Sri Lanka, the

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Sri Lankan local government, the Sri
Lankan criminal investigation police

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Criminal Investigation Division—
renowned for its use of torture as one of

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its standard investigative tools in Sri
Lanka—and the military, went to Ajif

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the soldier's house. Ajif is standing in
the middle, on my right-hand side. The

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Sri Lankan police CID also went to Supun's
family's homes—they threatened the

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families, they harassed the families, they
wanted the locations telephone numbers of

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the families in Hong Kong, and they wanted
the names and telephone numbers and

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addresses of the friends or people they
knew in Hong Kong. But the Snowden

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refugees have extraordinary parents, and
they did not speak up. They refused to

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assist, despite the threats.
[Applause]

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With the Sri Lankan government using
oppressive means to get intelligence on my

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clients in September and October, they
then flew into Hong Kong in October, and

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through to December. And it was in
December that a number of witnesses

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were able to find out the Sri Lankan
Criminal Investigation Division Department

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were targeting my clients. Now, I
informed, as their lawyer, I informed the

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Immigration Department. The Immigration
Department did nothing. We tried making a

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complaint to the police, the Hong Kong
police. They just told us the Immigration

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Department was conducting the
investigations. Which wasn't true. And

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finally, by April, the Hong Kong police
agreed they would allow my clients to make

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a formal complaint to the police about the
Sri Lankan police CID coming to Hong Kong.

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And threatening their safety, their
security, and their lives. So for four

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months, the Hong Kong government, the Hong
Kong police, failed to provide state

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protection, they failed to investigate
they failed to act promptly. I brought my

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clients in to the Hong Kong police to make
their complaint. The police didn't want to

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take their complaint initially—they said
they had a few questions. And they had a

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list of questions on a A4 size paper. They
asked my clients about Mr. Snowden. They

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asked about Mr. Snowden's movements in
Hong Kong. The police's responsibilities

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were to address the threat from the Sri
Lankan police, not asking questions about

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Mr. Snowden's movements in June 2013.
Clearly, the police, as with the Social

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Welfare Department, as with the contractor
ISS, has no interests in protecting and

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providing support for my clients.
Their interest was to gather intelligence

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on Mr. Snowden. I put a
stop to that—my

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instructing solicitor Jonathan Man was
with me. And eventually police complaints

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were made. But the police weren't
interested in investigating the Sri Lankan

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police. I had it, I had put it to the
investigating officers—all you have to

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do is to go to the Directorate of
immigrations office in Hong Kong, and ask

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for the files of all Sri Lankan police
officers who travel to Hong Kong between

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October and December 2016. That is because
every Sri Lankan who travels to Hong Kong

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must obtain a visa from the Chinese
embassy in Colombo. They must provide a

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photograph, and they must provide the
nature of their employment. Or who they're

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employed by. And the police did nothing.
The Hong Kong government did nothing. And

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it would have been a simple task—the
Hong Kong government could have said,

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“there were no police officers coming to
Hong Kong from Sri Lanka at that time

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because we have no records of such.”
And the fact that they didn't investigate

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that, or at least disclose that they've
checked their files, indicates that

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there's only one sole inference to be made
—that the Sri Lankan police were in fact

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in Hong Kong. Aside from the fact that
there were a number of witnesses. Then, in

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August of this year, the witnesses to the
Sri Lankan police coming to Hong Kong and

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targeting the Snowden refugees were
grabbed by the police. They had committed

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no crimes, they had done nothing wrong,
they were simply grabbed by six officers—

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two immigration enforcement officers, four
police officers from the Criminal

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Investigation Department in Hong Kong.
They were put into a van, and they were

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held, unlawfully, on two days. And the
first question the police asked the first

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detainee was about Mr. Snowden. And the
police were trying to make a case that the

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Snowden refugees made up the story. In
October, I was informed that the Hong Kong

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police finished the investigation and
there'd be no further investigation. But a

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few weeks later another witness was
arrested by the Hong Kong police, again,

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targeting the Snowden refugees and those
people acting for them. Now, why, why

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would the Sri Lankan police be coming to
Hong Kong? And Hong Kong has a history of

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allowing foreign agents to come into its
jurisdiction, and to target, engage, and

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even extraordinarily rendition civilians
in Hong Kong. Sami al-Saadi in 2003,

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Hong Kong assisted the UK and US
governments to have him rendition in a

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private flight to Libya where he was
tortured. The booksellers in Hong Kong a

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couple years ago were renditioned by the
mainland Chinese security, out of Hong

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Kong in Thailand. And in January this year, a
Chinese billionaire, Xiao Jianhua, was taken

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out of the Four Seasons Hotel, a Canadian
hotel, in Hong Kong. And renditioned

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across the border—and he's disappeared.
So my clients have had a very hard time.

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I've been targeted myself—the Hong Kong
director of immigration has sought to have

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me removed from the cases. Has made
complaints to the Bar Association, and

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without merit. They've reactivated dozens
of cases right before the Snowden refugee

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appeals. The Hong Kong government has
simply acted egregiously and projecting

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its authority with impunity. The Sri
Lankan police, I believe, came in to Hong

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Kong simply because the Hong Kong
government has created an environment

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where Hong Kong has not held any foreign
agent accountable for their unlawful

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activities in Hong Kong. And by the way,
mainland China, the Chinese government, is

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the biggest arms provider to the Sri
Lankan government. So they have a very

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close military relationship there. Now,
strategy was put into place where we found

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myself and the lawyers you can see in the
photo—on the far right hand side is

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Jonathan Mann, beside him is Michael
Simkin from Canada, from Montreal Quebec,

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Canada. Myself, originally from Montreal
Quebec, Canada. Marc-André Séguin, the lead

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lawyer in Canada. And on the far left is
Francis Tourigny. They filed refugee claims

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with the Canadian government, with the
Ministry of immigration; Ahmed Hussein, who

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himself is a former refugee from Somalia.
In May, the Canadian government

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communicated very clearly in writing that
they would expedite the screening of our

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clients’ cases, aware that the situation
for our clients was serious and urgent. In

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July of this year, the Canadian government
made a turnabout and said they would

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assess the cases chronologically, which
takes 52 months. So on one hand the Hong

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Kong government is simply trying to fast-
track and rush the screening process for

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my clients in Hong Kong for their
asylum and refugee claims—

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to deport them. And in Hong Kong, there's
an effective zero percent acceptance rate

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of refugees in Hong Kong. Which is
extraordinary, and the UN Committee

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Against Torture has said that this is …
has been very critical for the Hong Kong

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government. So at this stage, these lawyers
are pushing the Canadian government to

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have these cases decided in favour of
our clients, and to remind the Canadian

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government that if the clients are removed
from Hong Kong, because the Canadian

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government fails to act in time, the
Canadian refugee claims will extinguish.

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Because the clients, once they return to
their home soil, they have no more refugee

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claims. Under the Refugee Convention, you
must be outside of your home country.

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Right, I'm gonna come to this last,
because the clients need support. And they

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need support for food, for rent, because
the Hong Kong government is not providing

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any of that. And we foresee that we we
have a continued battle through to 2018.

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But at the same time, other the clients;
the clients will not be in Hong Kong by

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the end of 2018. We, we know that as a
fact. They're either gonna be in their

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home countries, or hopefully they'll be in
Canada. The one other thing I'd like to

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mention is that when the Hong Kong police
grabbed the witnesses to the Snowden, for

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the Snowden refugees, Sri Lankan police—
they took the cell phones from the

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clients. From the re…, from the
witnesses, and they gained access to the

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data in there. And they did that
unlawfully. So this is the environment in

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Hong Kong. This is an environment where
police have acted with impunity against

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the most vulnerable. Even to this day, the
Department of Justice in Hong Kong refuses

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to believe that Mr. Snowden had ever met
the Snowden refugees—despite compelling

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evidence. And it's an extraordinary and
bizarre situation in Hong Kong. But what

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it is is, the government projecting its
power, and using it against the most

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vulnerable. I'm going to stop here, and
what I would like to do now, is I'd like

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to welcome my other client:
Mr. Edward Snowden.

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[Applause]
Edward Snowden: So, we have a limited time.

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Actually for the audio room—could you
cut my my feed for the room for a minute

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while I speak—thank you. So, everything
that you've heard so far, is an indication

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of the kind of things that hackers have
known about long before anybody else—we

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are familiar with the fact that
governments abuse their power. We are

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familiar with the fact, the idea, that
institutions, and the processes that we're

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told to rely on don't always work as
promised. And the question is: Why is that?

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What is a hacker? Why are you here?
You know, first of all, I have to thank

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you, everyone, for coming to this talk,
because I know I had to be a long line.

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And you're here to hear about the
individual plight of these incredibly

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brave people: Supun, Nadeeka, Ajit, and
Vanessa and their children. Instead of,

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one of a hundred other talks, which I'm
sure given this timeslot are incredibly

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compelling and nobody wanted to miss. But
in this room, we have a thousand hackers

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for human rights. And I would argue the
reason for that is because you care. And

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this is important, right? This is no small
thing; this is not a platitude, this is

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not to be cute, this is not lip service,
right? Because caring is the prerequisite

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of progress—I don't care how smart you
are, I don't care how much talent you

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have, I don't care how connected you are,
what your resources are, who your friends

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are, where you went to school. All of
these capabilities are bottlenecked by a

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single thing—and that is concern.
That is how much you care.

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And you're here. These families
need our help. This is a problem that

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needs to be solved,
and I can think of no

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better to solve this than you, hackers,
right? Because it is that shared value

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that we all have. Where we look at these
things, this, this this common sentiment,

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this tribal value that defines all of us.
Regardless of how we feel about the

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politics. Regardless, of you know, the one
guy out there in the audience who's like,

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“Oh, I'm not gonna clap for this guy, he's
a Russian spy.” You know, we all know that

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person. And that's okay, right? Because
what is a hacker? One who doubts. That

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weirdo in the third row is that guy. Just
as the rest of us are. A hacker is one

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skeptical of claims—that the system
works as promised, or even design, rather

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than how it operates, as it's observed,
what we see. We take the risk every day of

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our work, of being wrong—in order to be
right. In order to do right. In order to

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fix problems. In order to discover things
people didn't know. Well, why, why did

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people do that why risk wasting hours and
euros and verifying some random API or

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running the fuzzer for weeks, just to see
what happens? And this is gonna sound like

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the most arrogant statement you'll hear,
you know, all week. But it's because we

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know better: all of us have reasons for
that doubt. That are different, but in each

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one of us we share a lived experience that
planted a seed in us that grew into that

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skepticism. That we should trust the
system. That we should rely upon the way

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the world is, as it is, and accept that
that's just the way things are. That what

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was promised is good enough. And boy,
ladies and gentlemen, what I say that this

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year has proved the value of our skepticism.
What you've heard so far about

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the familes, what you've heard so far
about the retaliation against Mr. Tibbo,

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which I promise you, based on personal
knowledge, goes far deeper than what he

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has said. Because he's kind of a
humble guy. But it is beyond

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injustice. and it's travelling into
inhumanity, right? So we look to the

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other side: Why? Why is the Hong Kong
government acting like this, right? Why

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are these, you know, few people being
dragged through coals when the government

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could very easily just say, “Okay fine, you
know, we know their names, they're in a

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movie, we're just gonna let them pass,
well, we'll give them asylum.” Even though

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in Hong Kong, the asylum admittance rate
is something less than 1%. In most

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countries I think it's more than 30%,
but in Hong Kong it's less than 1%.

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Nobody gets asylum. And the reason why
is because these people then become an

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example—they show that there are things
that are wrong, they show that the system

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is broke, and they show that things can
work better when people understand it.

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When somebody shows the flaw, when these
people become the proof of concept—

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suddenly there's pressure for change,
suddenly that caring begins.

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And suddenly, progress seems realistic.
And just as in many other countries,

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immigration, unfortunately, is a
politically contentious issue. Regardless

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of whether these are, you know, economic
migrants, or whether these are people who

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are legitimately flaming … fleeing torture
and violence, rape, and threats to life.

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And this is why I think this is so
important. This is why I think it's so

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important, to talk about this. To be
interested in this—even if you don't do

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anything about it, although I absolutely
hope that you will do something about it.

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Is because doubt is the first form of
dissent. We like to think of protest,

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right? We like to think of, you know,
people making arguments. Constructing

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them, writing, and sharing the debate. And
these things are important, but these all

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grow from that initial impulse, that
initial skepticism, that initial doubt,

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that just makes you go, “this doesn't seem
right!” Because if that doubt is powerful,

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doubt is valuable, doubt is that
motivator. But doubt makes enemies, right?

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And these people who doubted the
legitimacy of the Hong Kong government's

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approaches to them: the threats,
the coercion, the attempts at subversion

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to make them go against their initial
decision: that has made them enemies.

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And now they face retaliation,
and now they need our help. So what do we

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do? You know, we are, ultimately, just
people. We are technologists, we are

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technicians. And we are a community of so
many others. You know, this is a difficult

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case for some people who have deeply
conservative political values—I would

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hope they are not the majority in the
room. But I want you to put yourself, just

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for a second, in the shoes of these
people, these families, my friends, live

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in desperate poverty. They did not have a
toilet that you sat on—it was a hole in

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the floor. The kitchen sink was the
bathroom sink. The stove was a camp stove

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in the bathroom. People rotated sleeping
on the floor because there weren't enough

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beds. These are not people living in
glamorous circumstances. These are not

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people exploiting this system, right.
These are not people trying to get

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something for nothing. These are people
trying to make the most of what they have.

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Trying to eke out an existence in a
difficult, competitive society that is not

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their own. In a place where the language
is not their own. And trying to raise

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children in, ultimately, hostile
circumstance and despite that, despite the

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precarious situation in which they found
themselves, despite having nothing and

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having no one but Mr. Tibbo to represent
them. And hope that one day, they would be

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able to stay and have right to actually
just apply for a job—not even a

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guarantee of work. Somebody showed up on
their doorstep. And imagine that was you,

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and it's the most wanted man in the world.
And he needs help, right. Maybe he's the

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worst person on earth, maybe he's the
best; you don't know. All you know is he's

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hunted. These families knew what that was
like. They'd been there, they lived

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through that. And because of that they
helped me get off the X. They risked a

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lot. And I think, you know, so many people
say so negative things about refugees

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today. They see them as the worst kind
of people. But I know for my lived

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experience, right, my seed of doubt,
that there are cases that they're wrong.

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And this is absolutely one of them—these
are some of the best people that I've ever

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met, who have nothing but were willing to
risk everything for someone that they

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didn't even know. Just because they knew
what it was like to need shelter. And so I

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ask you, you know, think about what you
can do, in a small way. Maybe you can help

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them, right. Maybe you can donate—we
have a website fortherefugees.com—it's a

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fundraise for the family. But it's more
than that, right? Because this is not just

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about what happens in this room, this is
not just about this individual case. These

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problems are going to persist. Other
people are going to run into the same

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challenges. And its going to be a question
of, who do they turn to, when they don't

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have a movie to advocate for them, right?
And that's why I would say something that

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frustrates me about what we have seen in
the advance of technologies just in these

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last few years, is this used to be,
unfortunately, a very clubby community,

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right? And it's broadened, we've got wider
participation, and that's awesome. But

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with that, we've also seen a
commoditization of our work, of what we

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do. We see people looking to land their
job at the Google, the Facebook. And to do

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that, they sand down the sharp edges
of their own beliefs, of their own seeds,

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of their own ideologies. We become more
likely to agree, rather than more likely

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to argue. And I think we need to think
about what that means for the world when

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we, and our occupation, our specialty in
this moment of history—the atomic moment

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00:44:42,580 --> 00:44:48,060
of computer science. Our work has never
been more important. You can't open a

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newspaper without people talking about
cybersecurity, right? Cyber, cyber, cyber.

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Because they don't know you should just
say computers; instead they want to invent

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words, right? But the problem here is the
world is relying upon us; at the same time,

390
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:07,140
we are being pressured to be apolitical.
And ladies and gentlemen, I think that is

391
00:45:07,140 --> 00:45:10,910
wrong, I think that is incorrect. I think
we have some of the brightest minds

392
00:45:10,910 --> 00:45:16,590
in our communities, in this room.
And I think what you think, what you

393
00:45:16,590 --> 00:45:20,270
believe, matters beyond what you can do
behind the keyboard. And I think what you

394
00:45:20,270 --> 00:45:24,770
do behind the keyboard should be an
expression, an extension, of making that

395
00:45:24,770 --> 00:45:30,010
real. Right, look around at the world:
look at the fact that we're having to come

396
00:45:30,010 --> 00:45:35,360
together in conferences, and we're having
to hold largely off-topic conversations to

397
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:41,630
meet the basic needs of brave people. But
can we make that system better? And can we

398
00:45:41,630 --> 00:45:45,910
do that on a broader stage than what we
have here, we're not even talking about

399
00:45:45,910 --> 00:45:50,920
refugees—we're talking about the entire
body of humanity. I think we can, and I

400
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:57,540
think we should. We've seen progress,
we've seen where we have actually made

401
00:45:57,540 --> 00:46:01,810
constructive advances here. You see in the
United States there's always this constant

402
00:46:01,810 --> 00:46:05,930
talk about encryption, government spying
backdoors into it; the FBI is having to

403
00:46:05,930 --> 00:46:13,710
beg on both knees corporations not to use
secure communications. It was not so very

404
00:46:13,710 --> 00:46:17,550
long ago, ladies and gentlemen, that that
would have seemed like a joke. The

405
00:46:17,550 --> 00:46:21,280
governments would have simply presumed
that they could have banned this easily,

406
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:25,060
they could have made the rule, set the
rules, and we would have to live by them.

407
00:46:25,060 --> 00:46:28,971
Without even having a chance to consider
whether they were right or wrong, simply

408
00:46:28,971 --> 00:46:33,780
because it was their sovereign decision.
But we are now a part of that sovereign:

409
00:46:33,780 --> 00:46:38,770
this world is larger. Our ability to be
involved in our societies, our

410
00:46:38,770 --> 00:46:45,020
democracies, and more broadly across
borders, our world is larger. And with

411
00:46:45,020 --> 00:46:50,520
this role we need to be thinking about
what we can do. Maybe you're not a lawyer,

412
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:56,600
right? Maybe you have no influence in Hong
Kong; God knows I don't, right? Maybe we

413
00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:03,590
can't guarantee the courts will be fair.
Maybe we cannot guarantee that the police

414
00:47:03,590 --> 00:47:08,470
are going to be accurate. Maybe we cannot
guarantee that the government is going to

415
00:47:08,470 --> 00:47:19,560
serve the people. But maybe we can ensure
that we don't need them to. And that is a

416
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:24,230
revolutionary idea. But it's a basic idea,
it's an old idea,

417
00:47:24,230 --> 00:47:26,510
it's one that's as old as hacking itself.

418
00:47:26,510 --> 00:47:32,530
We don't want to be told what to do. And
that's not to say that all government is

419
00:47:32,530 --> 00:47:35,900
the enemy that's, not to say that we
shouldn't do anything at all. That doesn't

420
00:47:35,900 --> 00:47:41,181
mean that, you know, all rules are bad.
But all rules should be challenged, all

421
00:47:41,181 --> 00:47:47,511
rules should be proven. All implementations
should be tested. And that

422
00:47:47,511 --> 00:47:53,470
goes beyond APIs, ladies and gentlemen.
And I hope, based on this you will help

423
00:47:53,470 --> 00:47:58,920
Ajit, Supun, Nadeeka, Vanessa and their
kids. And I hope, ladies and gentlemen,

424
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:03,290
you will not stop there.
Thank you very much.

425
00:48:03,290 --> 00:48:23,471
[Applause]
Edward Snowden: Just to be clear, I have

426
00:48:23,471 --> 00:48:47,040
no audio, but I can see you. Thank you.
[Applause]

427
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:52,160
Robert Tibbo: Thank you,
thank you so much, Ed.

428
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:56,230
Edward Snowden: And thank you, thank you.
I don't know if we have time for

429
00:48:56,230 --> 00:49:01,120
questions: I can't hear real well. Robert,
if you want to take them or anyone else.

430
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:05,140
Or if we're behind schedule—I know CCC is
always tight—we can move on to the next …

431
00:49:05,140 --> 00:49:06,530
Robert Tibbo: Well there's two things.

432
00:49:06,530 --> 00:49:13,930
I think, I think probably, there should be
at least one question for you tonight. But

433
00:49:13,930 --> 00:49:20,070
the Snowden refugees are gonna … 
they're gonna come on screen right after

434
00:49:20,070 --> 00:49:27,040
Ed answers the question. So you're gonna
have an opportunity to meet all seven of

435
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:32,530
Ed Snowden, Snowden's guardians or
guardian angels. So one question

436
00:49:32,530 --> 00:49:41,900
Edward Snowden: And if I could ask the CCC
technical team: if you could type this for

437
00:49:41,900 --> 00:49:46,430
me, that would help, because
I can't hear at all.

438
00:49:46,430 --> 00:49:51,040
Question: Hi, so, thank you. So Russian
President Putin has said multiple times

439
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:57,300
that you met with Russian officials in
Hong Kong? At what point did that happen,

440
00:49:57,300 --> 00:50:02,420
and, if it was during you staying with the
refugees, how did that work?

441
00:50:02,420 --> 00:50:09,110
Edward Snowden: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear
the question but I think it was something

442
00:50:09,110 --> 00:50:13,750
about the Russians, right? And so I'm glad
somebody asked, because this gets into the

443
00:50:13,750 --> 00:50:22,850
whole doubting thing, right? Of course
we're gonna get the Russian question,

444
00:50:22,850 --> 00:50:26,980
right? Well look, a lot of people are
interested in this, and a lot of people

445
00:50:26,980 --> 00:50:30,420
wonder, because there's all of these
conspiracy theories out here. It's it's a

446
00:50:30,420 --> 00:50:37,230
fabulous wonderful thing that we have
this skepticism, but it should also be

447
00:50:37,230 --> 00:50:42,730
reasonable, right? Whenever we look at
argumentation, whenever we look at doubt,

448
00:50:42,730 --> 00:50:49,690
there's this ancient rule. Which is,
that which is asserted without evidence

449
00:50:49,690 --> 00:50:55,130
must be dismissed without evidence.
Because otherwise, we're wasting our time

450
00:50:55,130 --> 00:50:59,160
We don't just want to be engaged in
speculation. There was a whole book

451
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:05,460
written by some crazy guy that was this
missing days theory, right? Where like

452
00:51:05,460 --> 00:51:10,490
before I was even at the Mira, I was
secretly sneaking around with the

453
00:51:10,490 --> 00:51:15,750
Russians, and it simply didn't happen.
They said I wasn't at the Mira hotel, I

454
00:51:15,750 --> 00:51:22,530
had a, like, some handler or somebody like
that in in Hong Kong. And I was staying

455
00:51:22,530 --> 00:51:27,650
with them. But the funny thing is we
actually had hotel receipts, right? So

456
00:51:27,650 --> 00:51:30,980
this book comes out and we published them
and then they're like, “Oh! But you know,

457
00:51:30,980 --> 00:51:36,200
maybe we just got it wrong, maybe it was a
little bit whatever.” But the reality is,

458
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:45,800
guys, look: what makes more sense, when we
talk about doubt? The idea that a guy

459
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:51,520
who's making a hell of a lot of money
without a high school degree in the United

460
00:51:51,520 --> 00:52:00,270
States, working at the NSA, working at the
CIA; in Hawaii with a, living with a

461
00:52:00,270 --> 00:52:04,880
beautiful woman that he loves very much,
that he's been together for years, is gonna

462
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:12,320
set his life on fire to go run off to Russia,
right? Particularly when his argument is

463
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:16,950
primarily against surveillance. Does that
make sense, okay? And then going beyond

464
00:52:16,950 --> 00:52:23,970
this: if that's the case, right, and he
is a Russian spy: why in the hell does he

465
00:52:23,970 --> 00:52:29,240
go to Hong Kong, first, right? Why doesn't
he just fly to Moscow, right? But setting

466
00:52:29,240 --> 00:52:35,700
that aside, we got all these double games
and these wheels within wheels where I

467
00:52:35,700 --> 00:52:43,150
didn't even choose to be in Russia. I had
a transit ticket that was just supposed to

468
00:52:43,150 --> 00:52:48,070
be a layover for like 12 hours or
something like that in Moscow, en-route to

469
00:52:48,070 --> 00:52:53,480
Latin America. And this is publicly known!
This isn't, like, speculation, this

470
00:52:53,480 --> 00:53:00,010
isn't assertion. It's documented fact; you
can still go on Twitter and find pictures

471
00:53:00,010 --> 00:53:06,430
of the plane to Cuba that was packed full
of journalists taking pictures of my empty

472
00:53:06,430 --> 00:53:10,650
seat and Aeroflot leaked the ticket,
right, where where I was in it

473
00:53:10,650 --> 00:53:16,540
or whatever. But it just goes on and on.
We got this continuing today, where I

474
00:53:16,540 --> 00:53:19,340
just released a new app with the
freedom of the press foundation and

475
00:53:19,340 --> 00:53:22,050
the Guardian project. Maybe some
of you guys have heard about it.

476
00:53:22,050 --> 00:53:25,100
It's called Haven. It's an Android app, right,

477
00:53:25,100 --> 00:53:30,170
It's completely open-source. It's free,
it's not for pay, there's no profit motive

478
00:53:30,170 --> 00:53:36,890
in this. And we had, like, some former CIA
guys out there go into the meeting going,

479
00:53:36,890 --> 00:53:41,150
“There's no way this isn't a Russian
government backdoor!” First of all, guys,

480
00:53:41,150 --> 00:53:44,530
it's open source. It's … the program's
not that big, it's in Java. Just go look

481
00:53:44,530 --> 00:53:50,530
at the code yourself. It's not there. But
even, even if it were there, it could be

482
00:53:50,530 --> 00:53:58,910
there or wherever, guess how many lines of
code I wrote on Haven, guys. Zero, right?

483
00:53:58,910 --> 00:54:03,140
I'm not a developer. I'm not trying to be.
The person you want to thank is Nate

484
00:54:03,140 --> 00:54:07,150
Freitas. Who is, by the way, an American.
He's not a Russian, I don't think he's

485
00:54:07,150 --> 00:54:13,120
even ever been to Russia. I don't even
have access to the git repo, specifically

486
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:18,050
to avoid people being able to make these
arguments. To try to undermine the

487
00:54:18,050 --> 00:54:23,230
application. So even if I were a Russian
spy, right? Even if this were some sneaky

488
00:54:23,230 --> 00:54:30,020
trick, planned the long game to try to get
into people's phones. How would that even

489
00:54:30,020 --> 00:54:37,420
work, right? So just to answer the
question formally I would say: thank you

490
00:54:37,420 --> 00:54:41,220
for being doubtful, thank you for being
skeptical, but at the same time, don't be

491
00:54:41,220 --> 00:55:03,200
crazy. Thank you.
[Applause]

492
00:55:04,380 --> 00:55:11,080
Robert Tibbo: Alright the, the next group
of people will be the Snowden refugees.

493
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:16,020
They're gonna come on in about a minute,
and there are a few things I also wanted

494
00:55:16,020 --> 00:55:26,090
to disclose to you and … help you
understand that the Hong Kong government

495
00:55:26,090 --> 00:55:30,420
has taken a view in all the cases I've
done, that the Philippines in Sri Lanka

496
00:55:30,420 --> 00:55:39,171
are safe countries that have rule of law
and provide state protection. And that

497
00:55:39,171 --> 00:55:46,000
couldn't be further from the truth. So
very quickly, under the President

498
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:53,600
Duterte's, and I would call it an
authoritarian regime, in the Philippines,

499
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:58,990
he's instituted martial law in Mindanao.
He successfully, in December, had that

500
00:55:58,990 --> 00:56:05,311
extended for a year, but without lawful
basis. He broke off. He actually

501
00:56:05,311 --> 00:56:11,580
ordered emergency … a state of emergency
across the country earlier this year.

502
00:56:11,580 --> 00:56:16,510
Over 10,000 people have lost their lives
in the name of his drug war. Which

503
00:56:16,510 --> 00:56:29,130
in fact, is just a façade for basically
creating fear in the Philippines. And he's

504
00:56:29,130 --> 00:56:34,270
expanded that war on drugs targeting
politicians, journalists, and political

505
00:56:34,270 --> 00:56:41,010
activists. And only a few months ago, he
threatened the United Nations Special

506
00:56:41,010 --> 00:56:48,900
Rapporteur on or extrajudicial killings
and summary executions by telling her that

507
00:56:48,900 --> 00:56:55,630
if he sees her he's going to slap her in
the face. He's a self-confessed murderer.

508
00:56:55,630 --> 00:57:00,270
He broke off negotiations, peace talks,
with the New People's Army—and this is

509
00:57:00,270 --> 00:57:06,760
the group that persecuted Vanessa. And
here are my clients.

510
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:46,420
[Applause]
Robert Tibbo: Vanessa, Supun, Nadeeka,

511
00:57:46,420 --> 00:57:51,670
Ajit: can you hear everybody?
Daughter: Hi!

512
00:57:51,670 --> 00:58:02,221
Robert Tibbo: Alright, so what I'd like to
do is, I'd like to open this up to Q&A. So

513
00:58:02,221 --> 00:58:07,170
if you'd like … if you have any questions
for my clients, they'd be more than happy

514
00:58:07,170 --> 00:58:14,880
to to try to answer your questions.
[Silence followed by laughter]

515
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:27,560
Robert Tibbo: Don't be afraid! All right,
so. So Vanessa's from the Philippines, and

516
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:36,940
the other three adults are from Sri Lanka.
And so we've been doing everything to keep

517
00:58:36,940 --> 00:58:45,120
their cases alive in Hong Kong, and also
advocating to the Canadian government to,

518
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:51,890
to act quickly, to act promptly. A couple
things I'll mention about the Snowden

519
00:58:51,890 --> 00:58:56,400
refugees is that I raised their asylum
claims for the children under the United

520
00:58:56,400 --> 00:59:02,310
Nations Convention on rights of the child.
And the Hong Kong government had signed

521
00:59:02,310 --> 00:59:09,980
that International Convention, but decided
that they didn't have to follow it. They

522
00:59:09,980 --> 00:59:14,880
said, because we didn't incorporate it
into domestic legislation, these children

523
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:18,830
don't have the benefit on the UN
Convention and rights to the child. And

524
00:59:18,830 --> 00:59:27,000
refused to assess their asylum claims on
that basis. So Hong Kong, they're without

525
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:32,900
a doubt, the richest jurisdiction in the
world. This is how they view the treatment

526
00:59:32,900 --> 00:59:39,870
of the vulnerable, but in particular,
vulnerable children. Vanessa, is there

527
00:59:39,870 --> 00:59:46,380
anything you'd like to say? Oh are there
questions? Yes, please.

528
00:59:46,380 --> 00:59:53,770
Question: Yes, I think the German
government should be ash… the German

529
00:59:53,770 --> 00:59:59,740
government should be ashamed that
Edward Snowden cannot come here

530
00:59:59,740 --> 01:00:07,050
as a political refugee. Would it be helpful
if we pressure the German government

531
01:00:07,050 --> 01:00:14,780
to give political refugee status to
Edward Snowden's guardian angels?

532
01:00:14,780 --> 01:00:17,930
If the Canadian government is
not moving fast enough, maybe

533
01:00:17,930 --> 01:00:22,800
we can get the German government
to move fast enough?

534
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:40,601
[Applause]
Robert Tibbo: Vanessa, Supun; the question

535
01:00:40,601 --> 01:00:44,310
is: if Canada doesn't act, would you
like it if the German government is

536
01:00:44,310 --> 01:00:51,770
asked to act? To provide asylum to you
and the other families.

537
01:00:51,770 --> 01:01:02,470
[Silence}
Robert Tibbo: Can you hear? Are you able

538
01:01:02,470 --> 01:01:17,160
to hear us? I think we've lost the sound.
Yes definitely, definitely.

539
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:27,550
[Applause]
There are only seven Snowden refugees in

540
01:01:27,550 --> 01:01:33,950
the world. Who did the extraordinary. And
as you learned tonight, their families in

541
01:01:33,950 --> 01:01:39,290
Sri Lanka did the extraordinary. To
protect Edward Snowden. Because they knew

542
01:01:39,290 --> 01:01:49,570
it was the right thing to do. And without
without hesitation. There; it is

543
01:01:49,570 --> 01:01:57,340
extraordinary that in this world today,
that there's no room for seven refugees.

544
01:01:57,340 --> 01:02:09,440
No room. These specific extraordinary
people. And, it's just, it would be an

545
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:14,241
easy one step forward by the German
government to offer them asylum. There's

546
01:02:14,241 --> 01:02:18,270
another question, I think,
from number seven.

547
01:02:18,270 --> 01:02:23,010
Mic 7: Yeah hi—I just wanted to say
thank you to the refugees for their

548
01:02:23,010 --> 01:02:27,190
bravecy… their bravery.
[Applause]

549
01:02:27,190 --> 01:02:38,780
Mic 7: For our privacy. And also ask,
given the difficulties of your situation

550
01:02:38,780 --> 01:02:46,830
before you met this man:
What compelled you to help him?

551
01:02:46,830 --> 01:02:59,500
Robert Tibbo: Can you guys hear the
question? Can you hear? It looks like

552
01:02:59,500 --> 01:03:09,030
we've lost the sound again. There we go,
it sounds working. All right, can you, can

553
01:03:09,030 --> 01:03:30,300
you hear? Can you hear?
Vanessa: Now we can hear you

554
01:03:30,300 --> 01:03:48,610
Robert Tibbo: You can hear now right? Why
did you help Mr. Snowden? Vanessa, why did

555
01:03:48,610 --> 01:03:56,630
you all, why did you all help mr. Snowden?
Vanessa: Because he needs help, and we

556
01:03:56,630 --> 01:04:12,570
were able to help him.
[Applause]

557
01:04:12,570 --> 01:04:19,060
Robert Tibbo: And now after everything
that's happened over the last five years,

558
01:04:19,060 --> 01:04:22,280
would you do it again?
Vanessa: Yes

559
01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:31,380
[Applause]
Mic 7: Thank you

560
01:04:33,250 --> 01:04:37,490
Robert Tibbo: All right, we're gonna leave
you, leave you for the evening, Vanessa,

561
01:04:37,490 --> 01:04:48,050
Supun, Nadeeka, Ajit, Satum, Kiana.
Thank you so much for showing up tonight.

562
01:04:48,050 --> 01:05:17,390
[Applause]
Robert Tibbo: I need to get one more slide

563
01:05:17,390 --> 01:05:19,770
up.
Herald: It's up, it's up

564
01:05:19,770 --> 01:05:23,440
Robert Tibbo: Thank you. If you go to
fortherefugees site, it's a new site

565
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:29,500
that's been launched as of today. And it
has a variety of options if you'd like to

566
01:05:29,500 --> 01:05:35,010
donate. And we ask you to help. These
families need help. And the money goes to

567
01:05:35,010 --> 01:05:39,400
them—it doesn't go to the lawyers, it
doesn't go to administrators, it all goes

568
01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:47,820
to the families 100%. And there's Bitcoin,
credit card. Tap, there, there's different

569
01:05:47,820 --> 01:05:52,320
ways you can get the cash to the families,
yes. There can be telegraphic transfers,

570
01:05:52,320 --> 01:06:00,030
and somebody here in Leipzig could could
accept the cash and send it on to

571
01:06:00,030 --> 01:06:05,410
fortherefugees in Montreal. And so I'll
leave it at that, I think we're over time

572
01:06:05,410 --> 01:06:10,270
Herald: Yeah, we're a little bit over time.
Thank you very much, once again, great

573
01:06:10,270 --> 01:06:19,210
talk
[Applause]

574
01:06:19,210 --> 01:06:24,365
[Music]

575
01:06:24,365 --> 01:06:39,000
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