0:00:00.099,0:00:16.990 [Music] 0:00:16.990,0:00:19.990 Herald: So: since the Snowden movies, or 0:00:19.990,0:00:24.550 movie, and documentations, we know there[br]were many really, really awesome people 0:00:24.550,0:00:31.690 involved in the escape of Edward Snowden.[br]Today, we will hear a little bit more 0:00:31.690,0:00:37.139 about the personal sacrifices and big[br]risks these people took to shelter and 0:00:37.139,0:00:47.579 protect Edward Snowden. So, first, I will[br]give you Sönke Iwersen. An applause 0:00:47.579,0:01:03.749 for him please. He will start the whole[br]thing with a little bit of backstory, 0:01:03.749,0:01:09.780 after that we will have Robert Tibbo and[br]live on the screen, Edward Snowden; I'm 0:01:09.780,0:01:15.329 looking forward to it. But first, a big[br]applause again for Sönke Iwersen. 0:01:15.329,0:01:24.579 Applause — Iwersen: Good evening,[br]my name is Sönke Iwersen. 0:01:24.579,0:01:31.000 I'm a journalist for the German[br]Handelsblatt, and today the story I will tell 0:01:31.000,0:01:38.705 you is, you could put it on the motto “No[br]deed, no good deed, goes unpunished”. 0:01:38.705,0:01:45.910 In German: “Keine gute Tat bleibt[br]ungestraft”. It’s about 100 years old 0:01:45.910,0:01:53.450 and it holds true for Mr. Snowden, who is[br]now still in his exile in Moscow, and whom 0:01:53.450,0:01:59.680 Mr. Trump would like to shoot—those are[br]his words. And it also holds true for the 0:01:59.680,0:02:04.849 people who've helped Edward Snowden,[br]during a time when nobody able … nobody 0:02:04.849,0:02:11.500 else was able to help him. And these[br]people are still suffering under inhuman 0:02:11.500,0:02:22.610 conditions. You can see them here, I will[br]give you the names in a few seconds. To 0:02:22.610,0:02:29.800 start, this is the most famous story that[br]has been told of Edward Snowden. The movie 0:02:29.800,0:02:39.360 Citizenfour by lawyer Laura Poitras, a[br]very good movie. But there's a hole in the 0:02:39.360,0:02:52.180 story—let's see. Let's go back for just[br]a few seconds to June 10th, 2013. which is 0:02:52.180,0:02:57.230 the first day all of us here have ever[br]heard the name Edward Snowden. It was the 0:02:57.230,0:03:05.230 day that his interview was streamed by the[br]Guardian, and he uncovered the massive 0:03:05.230,0:03:12.250 surveillance of the US and the entire[br]world by the US government. And their 0:03:12.250,0:03:19.660 intelligence systems. And, well, this is[br]the Mira hotel, the interview took place 0:03:19.660,0:03:32.150 at that hotel. He was hiding here. In room[br]1014. This is a scene from the movie where 0:03:32.150,0:03:38.011 you can see him just after he realizes[br]that he doesn't know what to do next. He's 0:03:38.011,0:03:42.040 just been interviewed. This is the morning[br]after the interview. And the journalists 0:03:42.040,0:03:47.060 have left—Greenwald has left, he can't[br]go back because people like me, other 0:03:47.060,0:03:55.280 journalists have been… they have found him.[br]And they would follow him back to Snowden 0:03:55.280,0:03:59.120 if he went back to the hotel. So Laura[br]Poitras is filming this, but she can't 0:03:59.120,0:04:13.840 help him. And in the movie, there's a skip—[br]there's … it just skips over 14 days. The 0:04:13.840,0:04:20.720 next famous scene we have all seen[br]is Edward Snowden at the Hong Kong 0:04:20.720,0:04:26.850 International Airport—he's back[br]actually, holding a ticket to Moscow in 0:04:26.850,0:04:33.820 his hand. And that's it. The next time[br]we saw him again was in Moscow … we 0:04:33.820,0:04:39.680 saw pictures of him was in Moscow. But[br]that was 14 years later. So I don't know 0:04:39.680,0:04:45.241 about you, but I was always … had I for a[br]long time I've been wondering—well, how 0:04:45.241,0:04:54.760 did he do that? 14 days, the most hunted[br]man on the planet, the NSA, CIA, Hong Kong 0:04:54.760,0:05:02.170 police, all my colleagues—we're all[br]looking for him, but nobody found him. So 0:05:02.170,0:05:11.720 where did he go? And who helped him? And I[br]was lucky enough, two years ago, to meet 0:05:11.720,0:05:20.650 the people who hid Edward Snowden. It's[br]very … it was hard for me to believe at first 0:05:20.650,0:05:28.620 that these people were actually able to do[br]that and … but the next things that happen 0:05:28.620,0:05:33.220 may be even harder to believe. I'll just[br]introduce them quickly, because we're 0:05:33.220,0:05:40.590 coming to the main show in a few minutes.[br]This is Ajit—he's a former Sri Lankan 0:05:40.590,0:05:48.520 soldier. He has been stranded in Hong[br]Kong. While he was; his backstory: he 0:05:48.520,0:05:58.470 was captured by the military, he[br]was tortured, twice, then he was smuggled 0:05:58.470,0:06:05.230 into Hong Kong and his smuggler left him[br]without his passport in the middle of 0:06:05.230,0:06:10.820 Hong Kong. And Ajit was stranded there[br]and has been stranded there for … I think 0:06:10.820,0:06:21.360 since 2005 now. And in 2013, he met by[br]pure chance Edward Snowden, who was a 0:06:21.360,0:06:27.639 refugee at that time, suddenly, himself.[br]And Ajit became Snowden's bodyguard for 0:06:27.639,0:06:33.550 those two weeks in Hong Kong. He had[br]military training, there wasn't any 0:06:33.550,0:06:41.210 shootouts, but Ajit made sure that Snowden[br]stayed safe and was not found and 0:06:41.210,0:06:50.840 detected. This is Supun—another refugee.[br]He's also from Sri Lanka, he was also 0:06:50.840,0:07:03.530 tortured, beaten by the police and fled to[br]Hong Kong. His wife Nadeeka—she was 0:07:03.530,0:07:08.840 tortured, raped, beaten, when she went to[br]the police, she was sent out and beaten in 0:07:08.840,0:07:16.889 front of the police station again. So she[br]also fled, and in Hong Kong she met Supun 0:07:16.889,0:07:25.090 and they had these children. Sethumdi, the[br]daughter on the right, and Dinath, he was 0:07:25.090,0:07:36.220 just maybe six months when I met him two[br]years ago. This is Vanessa. Vanessa is a 0:07:36.220,0:07:46.440 Filipina—she was also raped in … at her[br]home. The police wouldn't help her because 0:07:46.440,0:07:54.080 her rapist had political connections, and[br]after trying several times, she finally 0:07:54.080,0:08:01.520 made it to Hong Kong where she applied for[br]asylum and never got it. Asylum seekers in 0:08:01.520,0:08:07.270 Hong Kong are not like asylum seekers here[br]—they have no rights at all, hardly any 0:08:07.270,0:08:12.320 help, they're not allowed to work, they get[br]food stamps. But for example, no stamps 0:08:12.320,0:08:18.390 for diapers if you have children, small[br]children. So what do you do if you don't get … 0:08:18.390,0:08:21.160 You're not allowed to work,[br]you're not allowed to steal. 0:08:21.160,0:08:25.370 If you're caught working, you can[br]be jailed for 22 months. 0:08:25.370,0:08:29.420 Which is longer than you[br]can be jailed for drug trafficking. 0:08:30.720,0:08:41.380 That's her daughter, Nadeeka. Vanessa did[br]a lot for Edward Snowden. She 0:08:41.380,0:08:49.980 would … she hid his passport—she cooked[br]for him, she brought in the newspaper, and 0:08:49.980,0:09:00.730 she and her daughter sang birthday songs[br]for Edward Snowden's 30th birthday. So how 0:09:00.730,0:09:09.910 did this all come out? Why, why was I able[br]to find this story? In 2016 this movie 0:09:09.910,0:09:14.040 came out—another movie, but this time a[br]fictional, part-fictional, part-documentary 0:09:14.040,0:09:21.380 maybe by Oliver Stone. And it was clear[br]that the refugees would play a part in 0:09:21.380,0:09:26.910 this movie. So, after a long time of[br]thinking, they were willing to talk to a 0:09:26.910,0:09:36.399 journalist and have their story be told[br]rather than rely on a Hollywood director. 0:09:36.399,0:09:43.990 So here you have the two main actors[br]—Joseph Gordon-Levitt on the left 0:09:43.990,0:09:52.990 and Shailene Woodley, and of course[br]director Oliver Stone on the right. And 0:09:52.990,0:10:00.769 now, we come to the most important[br]people of the night—on the left, 0:10:00.769,0:10:06.379 Edward Snowden. And on the right, his[br]lawyer in Hong Kong, who made all this 0:10:06.379,0:10:12.259 possible. Because, of course, four[br]refugees in Hong Kong couldn't just meet 0:10:12.259,0:10:17.480 Edward Snowden on the street. It was this[br]man, Robert Tibbo, who brought them 0:10:17.480,0:10:23.779 together. It was a coincidence, again. He[br]was called out of the blue on the morning 0:10:23.779,0:10:31.800 of the 10th of June in 2013 because Edward[br]Snowden didn't know what to do, and 0:10:31.800,0:10:39.030 nobody, neither Snoden nor any of the[br]Guardian people had planned how to, what 0:10:39.030,0:10:44.389 to do on the next morning. So, this lawyer[br]was called up—a human rights lawyer who 0:10:44.389,0:10:50.160 has been working with refugees. And the[br]cases of Ajit, Nadeeka, Supun, and Vanessa 0:10:50.160,0:10:58.279 for years. And when he was suddenly tasked[br]with finding a solution for this 0:10:58.279,0:11:03.899 unbelievable problem—hiding the most[br]sought-after, the most wanted man on the 0:11:03.899,0:11:11.879 planet, he came up with this crazy idea:[br]well, let's hide them with other refugees. 0:11:11.879,0:11:17.561 Let's hide them, let's hide Mr. Snowden[br]where nobody would ever look—in the 0:11:17.561,0:11:26.899 slums of Hong Kong. And it worked. For[br]two weeks, Edward Snowden hid in the tiny 0:11:26.899,0:11:36.339 apartments with sometimes no bathrooms,[br]and was undetected by the entire Secret 0:11:36.339,0:11:47.369 Service force of several nations. And,[br]well, when I found this, I do what most 0:11:47.369,0:11:55.659 journalists would do—I wrote a very long[br]story. This was in 2016, we named it 0:11:55.659,0:12:01.769 “Snowdens Geheimnis”—Snowden's Secret—,[br]and I detailed all the stories of Vanessa, 0:12:01.769,0:12:11.990 Supun, Ajit, and Nadeeka, and how they[br]met and saved Edward Snowden. So the 0:12:11.990,0:12:16.429 story was very well received—a lot of[br]calls came in wanting to donate, people 0:12:16.429,0:12:21.009 wanted to donate all over the world[br]really because we also put out a English 0:12:21.009,0:12:28.900 version of this. And we were able to[br]funnel a lot of money to the refugees. Of 0:12:28.900,0:12:38.399 course not enough, but more than before.[br]And just briefly, Rob told me to 0:12:38.399,0:12:50.730 put this up here—it was awarded the[br]Kurt Tucholsky award this year, and … 0:12:50.730,0:13:01.209 [Applause][br]Thank you. This is one year ago, not here, 0:13:01.209,0:13:12.110 but in Hamburg. Same place, another time.[br]When Rob and I told the story to the CCC 0:13:12.110,0:13:17.429 audience for the first time and things[br]were actually looking up—we were getting 0:13:17.429,0:13:25.040 money, we had connections to lawyers in[br]Canada who wanted to bring them to Canada, 0:13:25.040,0:13:32.670 because these people cannot stay in Hong[br]Kong. But as I said before—no good deed 0:13:32.670,0:13:40.309 goes unpunished, and it hasn't. And I[br]would like to now call Robert onto the 0:13:40.309,0:13:49.490 stage, because what happens next will[br]show you that certain governments in this 0:13:49.490,0:13:55.449 world do not want people to help those[br]in need. On the contrary, if you help 0:13:55.449,0:14:03.089 somebody who's in danger for his life, you[br]will get punished yourself. I think that's 0:14:03.089,0:14:11.730 the story, that's the lesson that is being[br]taught right now, and has been taught 0:14:11.730,0:14:21.690 for the last two years ever since[br]this story became public. Rob? 0:14:21.690,0:14:40.839 [Applause][br]Robert Tibbo: Well thank you, thank you 0:14:40.839,0:14:48.870 for being here tonight. And thank you so[br]much for the interest that you have in my 0:14:48.870,0:14:59.199 clients. Mr. Snowden, of course, but also[br]the seven refugees who acted to protect 0:14:59.199,0:15:06.279 the world's most significant[br]whistleblower. Now what I'd like to do is 0:15:06.279,0:15:14.630 like to start from where I left off last[br]year. And this, the slide that you have 0:15:14.630,0:15:23.829 here, was on the same day—the same date[br]last year. And what has not been disclosed 0:15:23.829,0:15:31.819 is after this talk a year ago I had left[br]the auditorium, and I received phone calls 0:15:31.819,0:15:39.529 from Hong Kong. The Sri Lankan police had[br]flown into Hong Kong, the Criminal 0:15:39.529,0:15:47.999 Investigation Division, targeting the[br]Snowden refugees—seeking to engage them. 0:15:47.999,0:15:57.359 Immediately, we took action: a legal team[br]and those people helping the Snowden 0:15:57.359,0:16:04.980 refugees to move them to safe houses. So[br]what I'd like to do is to go through 0:16:04.980,0:16:09.389 what's happened to the Snowden refugees[br]this last year, because they've had a 0:16:09.389,0:16:14.660 terrible time. They've been targeted by[br]the Sri Lankan government, and they've 0:16:14.660,0:16:19.069 been targeted by the Hong Kong government,[br]and they've been punished by the Hong Kong 0:16:19.069,0:16:35.300 government. Simply for their association[br]with Mr. Snowden. Last September, their 0:16:35.300,0:16:39.230 seven cases were called up by the[br]Immigration Department after the 0:16:39.230,0:16:45.259 Immigration Department just ignored their[br]cases for about five years. And their 0:16:45.259,0:16:49.889 cases had nothing in common in terms of[br]the incidents in their home countries, but 0:16:49.889,0:16:56.310 the time that they were targeted for[br]persecution or torture, ill-treatment. The 0:16:56.310,0:17:00.621 time they left Sri Lanka in the[br]Philippines. And even the time they were 0:17:00.621,0:17:03.759 in Hong Kong when they raised their[br]refugee and asylum claims. And the only 0:17:03.759,0:17:11.949 factor that they had in common was the[br]kindness, humanity, empathy, and 0:17:11.949,0:17:19.099 compassion they showed Mr. Snowden. And[br]the Hong Kong government, instead of 0:17:19.099,0:17:31.730 recognizing the extraordinary deeds they[br]did, instead took the opposite approach. 0:17:31.730,0:17:38.460 And last September, the Hong Kong[br]government utilized different departments 0:17:38.460,0:17:45.550 to punish the Snowden refugees. Vanessa,[br]Supun, Nadeeka went to the Social Welfare 0:17:45.550,0:17:51.000 Department, which uses a Swiss contractor[br]—International Social Services. And when 0:17:51.000,0:17:55.399 they went there to get the little[br]financial support they're given which does 0:17:55.399,0:18:01.200 not meet their basic needs, International[br]Social Services, on behalf of the Social 0:18:01.200,0:18:05.649 Welfare department, started asking them[br]about Mr. Snowden in private, information 0:18:05.649,0:18:13.090 about Mr. Snowden. And these extraordinary[br]people told the government that they're 0:18:13.090,0:18:19.299 not going to breach Mr. Snowden's[br]confidence. So they were punished—they 0:18:19.299,0:18:23.710 had their food taken away from them, they[br]had their housing taken away from them, 0:18:23.710,0:18:31.720 transport money. The little girl in[br]the front, on the right hand side, 0:18:31.720,0:18:38.130 ($NAME), she was denied access to[br]education for one year. The little girl on 0:18:38.130,0:18:45.631 the left, Vanessa's daughter, Kiana - she[br]was denied education as well. And 0:18:45.631,0:18:50.320 fortunately there was an extraordinary[br]group in Hong Kong who ran a private 0:18:50.320,0:19:00.370 school who brought her in. So through last[br]September to December, the only assistance 0:19:00.370,0:19:04.160 they had from the government was stripped[br]away simply because they refused to 0:19:04.160,0:19:13.040 answer questions about Mr. Snowden. Now[br]parallel to this time, in Sri Lanka, the 0:19:13.040,0:19:19.000 Sri Lankan local government, the Sri[br]Lankan criminal investigation police 0:19:19.000,0:19:24.820 Criminal Investigation Division—[br]renowned for its use of torture as one of 0:19:24.820,0:19:31.169 its standard investigative tools in Sri[br]Lanka—and the military, went to Ajif 0:19:31.169,0:19:39.179 the soldier's house. Ajif is standing in[br]the middle, on my right-hand side. The 0:19:39.179,0:19:45.970 Sri Lankan police CID also went to Supun's[br]family's homes—they threatened the 0:19:45.970,0:19:51.830 families, they harassed the families, they[br]wanted the locations telephone numbers of 0:19:51.830,0:19:55.210 the families in Hong Kong, and they wanted[br]the names and telephone numbers and 0:19:55.210,0:20:03.219 addresses of the friends or people they[br]knew in Hong Kong. But the Snowden 0:20:03.219,0:20:09.850 refugees have extraordinary parents, and[br]they did not speak up. They refused to 0:20:09.850,0:20:27.049 assist, despite the threats.[br][Applause] 0:20:27.049,0:20:32.110 With the Sri Lankan government using[br]oppressive means to get intelligence on my 0:20:32.110,0:20:38.691 clients in September and October, they[br]then flew into Hong Kong in October, and 0:20:38.691,0:20:48.500 through to December. And it was in[br]December that a number of witnesses 0:20:48.500,0:20:53.009 were able to find out the Sri Lankan[br]Criminal Investigation Division Department 0:20:53.009,0:21:02.000 were targeting my clients. Now, I[br]informed, as their lawyer, I informed the 0:21:02.000,0:21:07.090 Immigration Department. The Immigration[br]Department did nothing. We tried making a 0:21:07.090,0:21:12.230 complaint to the police, the Hong Kong[br]police. They just told us the Immigration 0:21:12.230,0:21:19.840 Department was conducting the[br]investigations. Which wasn't true. And 0:21:19.840,0:21:25.070 finally, by April, the Hong Kong police[br]agreed they would allow my clients to make 0:21:25.070,0:21:30.529 a formal complaint to the police about the[br]Sri Lankan police CID coming to Hong Kong. 0:21:30.529,0:21:35.350 And threatening their safety, their[br]security, and their lives. So for four 0:21:35.350,0:21:40.150 months, the Hong Kong government, the Hong[br]Kong police, failed to provide state 0:21:40.150,0:21:47.110 protection, they failed to investigate[br]they failed to act promptly. I brought my 0:21:47.110,0:21:53.480 clients in to the Hong Kong police to make[br]their complaint. The police didn't want to 0:21:53.480,0:22:00.080 take their complaint initially—they said[br]they had a few questions. And they had a 0:22:00.080,0:22:12.111 list of questions on a A4 size paper. They[br]asked my clients about Mr. Snowden. They 0:22:12.111,0:22:18.419 asked about Mr. Snowden's movements in[br]Hong Kong. The police's responsibilities 0:22:18.419,0:22:22.269 were to address the threat from the Sri[br]Lankan police, not asking questions about 0:22:22.269,0:22:29.540 Mr. Snowden's movements in June 2013.[br]Clearly, the police, as with the Social 0:22:29.540,0:22:34.610 Welfare Department, as with the contractor[br]ISS, has no interests in protecting and 0:22:34.610,0:22:39.029 providing support for my clients.[br]Their interest was to gather intelligence 0:22:39.029,0:22:44.789 on Mr. Snowden. I put a[br]stop to that—my 0:22:44.789,0:22:49.780 instructing solicitor Jonathan Man was[br]with me. And eventually police complaints 0:22:49.780,0:22:58.429 were made. But the police weren't[br]interested in investigating the Sri Lankan 0:22:58.429,0:23:04.299 police. I had it, I had put it to the[br]investigating officers—all you have to 0:23:04.299,0:23:08.400 do is to go to the Directorate of[br]immigrations office in Hong Kong, and ask 0:23:08.400,0:23:13.120 for the files of all Sri Lankan police[br]officers who travel to Hong Kong between 0:23:13.120,0:23:20.600 October and December 2016. That is because[br]every Sri Lankan who travels to Hong Kong 0:23:20.600,0:23:26.220 must obtain a visa from the Chinese[br]embassy in Colombo. They must provide a 0:23:26.220,0:23:31.809 photograph, and they must provide the[br]nature of their employment. Or who they're 0:23:31.809,0:23:43.050 employed by. And the police did nothing.[br]The Hong Kong government did nothing. And 0:23:43.050,0:23:46.470 it would have been a simple task—the[br]Hong Kong government could have said, 0:23:46.470,0:23:50.860 “there were no police officers coming to[br]Hong Kong from Sri Lanka at that time 0:23:50.860,0:23:57.340 because we have no records of such.”[br]And the fact that they didn't investigate 0:23:57.340,0:24:02.389 that, or at least disclose that they've[br]checked their files, indicates that 0:24:02.389,0:24:06.680 there's only one sole inference to be made[br]—that the Sri Lankan police were in fact 0:24:06.680,0:24:16.520 in Hong Kong. Aside from the fact that[br]there were a number of witnesses. Then, in 0:24:16.520,0:24:24.330 August of this year, the witnesses to the[br]Sri Lankan police coming to Hong Kong and 0:24:24.330,0:24:32.549 targeting the Snowden refugees were[br]grabbed by the police. They had committed 0:24:32.549,0:24:39.130 no crimes, they had done nothing wrong,[br]they were simply grabbed by six officers— 0:24:39.130,0:24:43.840 two immigration enforcement officers, four[br]police officers from the Criminal 0:24:43.840,0:24:50.370 Investigation Department in Hong Kong.[br]They were put into a van, and they were 0:24:50.370,0:25:00.059 held, unlawfully, on two days. And the[br]first question the police asked the first 0:25:00.059,0:25:14.830 detainee was about Mr. Snowden. And the[br]police were trying to make a case that the 0:25:14.830,0:25:27.270 Snowden refugees made up the story. In[br]October, I was informed that the Hong Kong 0:25:27.270,0:25:33.610 police finished the investigation and[br]there'd be no further investigation. But a 0:25:33.610,0:25:39.220 few weeks later another witness was[br]arrested by the Hong Kong police, again, 0:25:39.220,0:25:49.750 targeting the Snowden refugees and those[br]people acting for them. Now, why, why 0:25:49.750,0:25:58.340 would the Sri Lankan police be coming to[br]Hong Kong? And Hong Kong has a history of 0:25:58.340,0:26:04.640 allowing foreign agents to come into its[br]jurisdiction, and to target, engage, and 0:26:04.640,0:26:13.080 even extraordinarily rendition civilians[br]in Hong Kong. Sami al-Saadi in 2003, 0:26:13.080,0:26:18.940 Hong Kong assisted the UK and US[br]governments to have him rendition in a 0:26:18.940,0:26:24.409 private flight to Libya where he was[br]tortured. The booksellers in Hong Kong a 0:26:24.409,0:26:30.860 couple years ago were renditioned by the[br]mainland Chinese security, out of Hong 0:26:30.860,0:26:37.320 Kong in Thailand. And in January this year, a[br]Chinese billionaire, Xiao Jianhua, was taken 0:26:37.320,0:26:42.470 out of the Four Seasons Hotel, a Canadian[br]hotel, in Hong Kong. And renditioned 0:26:42.470,0:26:52.690 across the border—and he's disappeared.[br]So my clients have had a very hard time. 0:26:52.690,0:26:59.210 I've been targeted myself—the Hong Kong[br]director of immigration has sought to have 0:26:59.210,0:27:03.709 me removed from the cases. Has made[br]complaints to the Bar Association, and 0:27:03.709,0:27:12.160 without merit. They've reactivated dozens[br]of cases right before the Snowden refugee 0:27:12.160,0:27:22.299 appeals. The Hong Kong government has[br]simply acted egregiously and projecting 0:27:22.299,0:27:29.200 its authority with impunity. The Sri[br]Lankan police, I believe, came in to Hong 0:27:29.200,0:27:35.669 Kong simply because the Hong Kong[br]government has created an environment 0:27:35.669,0:27:41.720 where Hong Kong has not held any foreign[br]agent accountable for their unlawful 0:27:41.720,0:27:46.559 activities in Hong Kong. And by the way,[br]mainland China, the Chinese government, is 0:27:46.559,0:27:51.340 the biggest arms provider to the Sri[br]Lankan government. So they have a very 0:27:51.340,0:28:05.470 close military relationship there. Now,[br]strategy was put into place where we found 0:28:05.470,0:28:09.080 myself and the lawyers you can see in the[br]photo—on the far right hand side is 0:28:09.080,0:28:14.549 Jonathan Mann, beside him is Michael[br]Simkin from Canada, from Montreal Quebec, 0:28:14.549,0:28:19.159 Canada. Myself, originally from Montreal[br]Quebec, Canada. Marc-André Séguin, the lead 0:28:19.159,0:28:27.370 lawyer in Canada. And on the far left is[br]Francis Tourigny. They filed refugee claims 0:28:27.370,0:28:31.139 with the Canadian government, with the[br]Ministry of immigration; Ahmed Hussein, who 0:28:31.139,0:28:38.610 himself is a former refugee from Somalia.[br]In May, the Canadian government 0:28:38.610,0:28:42.899 communicated very clearly in writing that[br]they would expedite the screening of our 0:28:42.899,0:28:51.770 clients’ cases, aware that the situation[br]for our clients was serious and urgent. In 0:28:51.770,0:28:56.220 July of this year, the Canadian government[br]made a turnabout and said they would 0:28:56.220,0:29:05.000 assess the cases chronologically, which[br]takes 52 months. So on one hand the Hong 0:29:05.000,0:29:11.090 Kong government is simply trying to fast-[br]track and rush the screening process for 0:29:11.090,0:29:16.740 my clients in Hong Kong for their[br]asylum and refugee claims— 0:29:16.740,0:29:22.499 to deport them. And in Hong Kong, there's[br]an effective zero percent acceptance rate 0:29:22.499,0:29:27.179 of refugees in Hong Kong. Which is[br]extraordinary, and the UN Committee 0:29:27.179,0:29:32.070 Against Torture has said that this is …[br]has been very critical for the Hong Kong 0:29:32.070,0:29:39.830 government. So at this stage, these lawyers[br]are pushing the Canadian government to 0:29:39.830,0:29:45.029 have these cases decided in favour of[br]our clients, and to remind the Canadian 0:29:45.029,0:29:49.070 government that if the clients are removed[br]from Hong Kong, because the Canadian 0:29:49.070,0:29:55.059 government fails to act in time, the[br]Canadian refugee claims will extinguish. 0:29:55.059,0:29:58.860 Because the clients, once they return to[br]their home soil, they have no more refugee 0:29:58.860,0:30:07.259 claims. Under the Refugee Convention, you[br]must be outside of your home country. 0:30:07.259,0:30:19.490 Right, I'm gonna come to this last,[br]because the clients need support. And they 0:30:19.490,0:30:24.039 need support for food, for rent, because[br]the Hong Kong government is not providing 0:30:24.039,0:30:30.679 any of that. And we foresee that we we[br]have a continued battle through to 2018. 0:30:30.679,0:30:37.200 But at the same time, other the clients;[br]the clients will not be in Hong Kong by 0:30:37.200,0:30:41.669 the end of 2018. We, we know that as a[br]fact. They're either gonna be in their 0:30:41.669,0:30:54.650 home countries, or hopefully they'll be in[br]Canada. The one other thing I'd like to 0:30:54.650,0:30:59.281 mention is that when the Hong Kong police[br]grabbed the witnesses to the Snowden, for 0:30:59.281,0:31:07.230 the Snowden refugees, Sri Lankan police—[br]they took the cell phones from the 0:31:07.230,0:31:13.149 clients. From the re…, from the[br]witnesses, and they gained access to the 0:31:13.149,0:31:17.809 data in there. And they did that[br]unlawfully. So this is the environment in 0:31:17.809,0:31:22.710 Hong Kong. This is an environment where[br]police have acted with impunity against 0:31:22.710,0:31:32.299 the most vulnerable. Even to this day, the[br]Department of Justice in Hong Kong refuses 0:31:32.299,0:31:39.520 to believe that Mr. Snowden had ever met[br]the Snowden refugees—despite compelling 0:31:39.520,0:31:45.700 evidence. And it's an extraordinary and[br]bizarre situation in Hong Kong. But what 0:31:45.700,0:31:50.740 it is is, the government projecting its[br]power, and using it against the most 0:31:50.740,0:31:59.500 vulnerable. I'm going to stop here, and[br]what I would like to do now, is I'd like 0:31:59.500,0:32:05.140 to welcome my other client:[br]Mr. Edward Snowden. 0:32:05.140,0:32:42.520 [Applause][br]Edward Snowden: So, we have a limited time. 0:32:42.520,0:32:46.719 Actually for the audio room—could you[br]cut my my feed for the room for a minute 0:32:46.719,0:32:59.340 while I speak—thank you. So, everything[br]that you've heard so far, is an indication 0:32:59.340,0:33:04.179 of the kind of things that hackers have[br]known about long before anybody else—we 0:33:04.179,0:33:10.149 are familiar with the fact that[br]governments abuse their power. We are 0:33:10.149,0:33:16.700 familiar with the fact, the idea, that[br]institutions, and the processes that we're 0:33:16.700,0:33:25.370 told to rely on don't always work as[br]promised. And the question is: Why is that? 0:33:25.370,0:33:32.159 What is a hacker? Why are you here?[br]You know, first of all, I have to thank 0:33:32.159,0:33:38.460 you, everyone, for coming to this talk,[br]because I know I had to be a long line. 0:33:38.460,0:33:43.190 And you're here to hear about the[br]individual plight of these incredibly 0:33:43.190,0:33:52.470 brave people: Supun, Nadeeka, Ajit, and[br]Vanessa and their children. Instead of, 0:33:52.470,0:33:56.240 one of a hundred other talks, which I'm[br]sure given this timeslot are incredibly 0:33:56.240,0:34:01.909 compelling and nobody wanted to miss. But[br]in this room, we have a thousand hackers 0:34:01.909,0:34:06.880 for human rights. And I would argue the[br]reason for that is because you care. And 0:34:06.880,0:34:10.860 this is important, right? This is no small[br]thing; this is not a platitude, this is 0:34:10.860,0:34:16.880 not to be cute, this is not lip service,[br]right? Because caring is the prerequisite 0:34:16.880,0:34:22.670 of progress—I don't care how smart you[br]are, I don't care how much talent you 0:34:22.670,0:34:26.989 have, I don't care how connected you are,[br]what your resources are, who your friends 0:34:26.989,0:34:33.389 are, where you went to school. All of[br]these capabilities are bottlenecked by a 0:34:33.389,0:34:37.610 single thing—and that is concern.[br]That is how much you care. 0:34:37.610,0:34:44.119 And you're here. These families[br]need our help. This is a problem that 0:34:44.119,0:34:47.000 needs to be solved,[br]and I can think of no 0:34:47.000,0:34:53.710 better to solve this than you, hackers,[br]right? Because it is that shared value 0:34:53.710,0:35:00.150 that we all have. Where we look at these[br]things, this, this this common sentiment, 0:35:00.150,0:35:04.500 this tribal value that defines all of us.[br]Regardless of how we feel about the 0:35:04.500,0:35:08.820 politics. Regardless, of you know, the one[br]guy out there in the audience who's like, 0:35:08.820,0:35:14.700 “Oh, I'm not gonna clap for this guy, he's[br]a Russian spy.” You know, we all know that 0:35:14.700,0:35:25.020 person. And that's okay, right? Because[br]what is a hacker? One who doubts. That 0:35:25.020,0:35:30.730 weirdo in the third row is that guy. Just[br]as the rest of us are. A hacker is one 0:35:30.730,0:35:36.610 skeptical of claims—that the system[br]works as promised, or even design, rather 0:35:36.610,0:35:42.770 than how it operates, as it's observed,[br]what we see. We take the risk every day of 0:35:42.770,0:35:52.940 our work, of being wrong—in order to be[br]right. In order to do right. In order to 0:35:52.940,0:36:00.350 fix problems. In order to discover things[br]people didn't know. Well, why, why did 0:36:00.350,0:36:06.930 people do that why risk wasting hours and[br]euros and verifying some random API or 0:36:06.930,0:36:13.560 running the fuzzer for weeks, just to see[br]what happens? And this is gonna sound like 0:36:13.560,0:36:18.120 the most arrogant statement you'll hear,[br]you know, all week. But it's because we 0:36:18.120,0:36:27.100 know better: all of us have reasons for[br]that doubt. That are different, but in each 0:36:27.100,0:36:34.160 one of us we share a lived experience that[br]planted a seed in us that grew into that 0:36:34.160,0:36:40.660 skepticism. That we should trust the[br]system. That we should rely upon the way 0:36:40.660,0:36:45.150 the world is, as it is, and accept that[br]that's just the way things are. That what 0:36:45.150,0:36:50.950 was promised is good enough. And boy,[br]ladies and gentlemen, what I say that this 0:36:50.950,0:36:57.290 year has proved the value of our skepticism.[br]What you've heard so far about 0:36:57.290,0:37:01.360 the familes, what you've heard so far[br]about the retaliation against Mr. Tibbo, 0:37:01.360,0:37:05.700 which I promise you, based on personal[br]knowledge, goes far deeper than what he 0:37:05.700,0:37:14.830 has said. Because he's kind of a[br]humble guy. But it is beyond 0:37:14.830,0:37:22.140 injustice. and it's travelling into[br]inhumanity, right? So we look to the 0:37:22.140,0:37:27.230 other side: Why? Why is the Hong Kong[br]government acting like this, right? Why 0:37:27.230,0:37:36.790 are these, you know, few people being[br]dragged through coals when the government 0:37:36.790,0:37:41.940 could very easily just say, “Okay fine, you[br]know, we know their names, they're in a 0:37:41.940,0:37:46.840 movie, we're just gonna let them pass,[br]well, we'll give them asylum.” Even though 0:37:46.840,0:37:51.980 in Hong Kong, the asylum admittance rate[br]is something less than 1%. In most 0:37:51.980,0:37:56.560 countries I think it's more than 30%,[br]but in Hong Kong it's less than 1%. 0:37:56.560,0:38:02.620 Nobody gets asylum. And the reason why[br]is because these people then become an 0:38:02.620,0:38:06.590 example—they show that there are things[br]that are wrong, they show that the system 0:38:06.590,0:38:11.370 is broke, and they show that things can[br]work better when people understand it. 0:38:11.370,0:38:18.330 When somebody shows the flaw, when these[br]people become the proof of concept— 0:38:18.330,0:38:23.000 suddenly there's pressure for change,[br]suddenly that caring begins. 0:38:23.000,0:38:27.840 And suddenly, progress seems realistic.[br]And just as in many other countries, 0:38:27.840,0:38:32.900 immigration, unfortunately, is a[br]politically contentious issue. Regardless 0:38:32.900,0:38:37.000 of whether these are, you know, economic[br]migrants, or whether these are people who 0:38:37.000,0:38:46.420 are legitimately flaming … fleeing torture[br]and violence, rape, and threats to life. 0:38:46.420,0:38:49.900 And this is why I think this is so[br]important. This is why I think it's so 0:38:49.900,0:38:53.940 important, to talk about this. To be[br]interested in this—even if you don't do 0:38:53.940,0:38:58.020 anything about it, although I absolutely[br]hope that you will do something about it. 0:38:58.020,0:39:04.100 Is because doubt is the first form of[br]dissent. We like to think of protest, 0:39:04.100,0:39:10.900 right? We like to think of, you know,[br]people making arguments. Constructing 0:39:10.900,0:39:14.730 them, writing, and sharing the debate. And[br]these things are important, but these all 0:39:14.730,0:39:20.160 grow from that initial impulse, that[br]initial skepticism, that initial doubt, 0:39:20.160,0:39:29.390 that just makes you go, “this doesn't seem[br]right!” Because if that doubt is powerful, 0:39:29.390,0:39:37.670 doubt is valuable, doubt is that[br]motivator. But doubt makes enemies, right? 0:39:37.670,0:39:43.430 And these people who doubted the[br]legitimacy of the Hong Kong government's 0:39:43.430,0:39:50.450 approaches to them: the threats,[br]the coercion, the attempts at subversion 0:39:50.450,0:39:57.675 to make them go against their initial[br]decision: that has made them enemies. 0:39:57.675,0:40:02.720 And now they face retaliation,[br]and now they need our help. So what do we 0:40:02.720,0:40:11.380 do? You know, we are, ultimately, just[br]people. We are technologists, we are 0:40:11.380,0:40:19.800 technicians. And we are a community of so[br]many others. You know, this is a difficult 0:40:19.800,0:40:24.210 case for some people who have deeply[br]conservative political values—I would 0:40:24.210,0:40:29.810 hope they are not the majority in the[br]room. But I want you to put yourself, just 0:40:29.810,0:40:38.030 for a second, in the shoes of these[br]people, these families, my friends, live 0:40:38.030,0:40:45.810 in desperate poverty. They did not have a[br]toilet that you sat on—it was a hole in 0:40:45.810,0:40:54.470 the floor. The kitchen sink was the[br]bathroom sink. The stove was a camp stove 0:40:54.470,0:41:02.580 in the bathroom. People rotated sleeping[br]on the floor because there weren't enough 0:41:02.580,0:41:09.810 beds. These are not people living in[br]glamorous circumstances. These are not 0:41:09.810,0:41:14.130 people exploiting this system, right.[br]These are not people trying to get 0:41:14.130,0:41:18.450 something for nothing. These are people[br]trying to make the most of what they have. 0:41:18.450,0:41:22.850 Trying to eke out an existence in a[br]difficult, competitive society that is not 0:41:22.850,0:41:28.680 their own. In a place where the language[br]is not their own. And trying to raise 0:41:28.680,0:41:34.370 children in, ultimately, hostile[br]circumstance and despite that, despite the 0:41:34.370,0:41:38.820 precarious situation in which they found[br]themselves, despite having nothing and 0:41:38.820,0:41:44.600 having no one but Mr. Tibbo to represent[br]them. And hope that one day, they would be 0:41:44.600,0:41:49.220 able to stay and have right to actually[br]just apply for a job—not even a 0:41:49.220,0:41:57.730 guarantee of work. Somebody showed up on[br]their doorstep. And imagine that was you, 0:41:57.730,0:42:06.870 and it's the most wanted man in the world.[br]And he needs help, right. Maybe he's the 0:42:06.870,0:42:10.140 worst person on earth, maybe he's the[br]best; you don't know. All you know is he's 0:42:10.140,0:42:17.660 hunted. These families knew what that was[br]like. They'd been there, they lived 0:42:17.660,0:42:27.370 through that. And because of that they[br]helped me get off the X. They risked a 0:42:27.370,0:42:38.840 lot. And I think, you know, so many people[br]say so negative things about refugees 0:42:38.840,0:42:43.820 today. They see them as the worst kind[br]of people. But I know for my lived 0:42:43.820,0:42:51.120 experience, right, my seed of doubt,[br]that there are cases that they're wrong. 0:42:51.120,0:42:55.020 And this is absolutely one of them—these[br]are some of the best people that I've ever 0:42:55.020,0:43:03.300 met, who have nothing but were willing to[br]risk everything for someone that they 0:43:03.300,0:43:12.931 didn't even know. Just because they knew[br]what it was like to need shelter. And so I 0:43:12.931,0:43:17.630 ask you, you know, think about what you[br]can do, in a small way. Maybe you can help 0:43:17.630,0:43:26.350 them, right. Maybe you can donate—we[br]have a website fortherefugees.com—it's a 0:43:26.350,0:43:30.860 fundraise for the family. But it's more[br]than that, right? Because this is not just 0:43:30.860,0:43:34.181 about what happens in this room, this is[br]not just about this individual case. These 0:43:34.181,0:43:38.940 problems are going to persist. Other[br]people are going to run into the same 0:43:38.940,0:43:43.530 challenges. And its going to be a question[br]of, who do they turn to, when they don't 0:43:43.530,0:43:49.400 have a movie to advocate for them, right?[br]And that's why I would say something that 0:43:49.400,0:43:53.470 frustrates me about what we have seen in[br]the advance of technologies just in these 0:43:53.470,0:44:02.580 last few years, is this used to be,[br]unfortunately, a very clubby community, 0:44:02.580,0:44:08.680 right? And it's broadened, we've got wider[br]participation, and that's awesome. But 0:44:08.680,0:44:13.030 with that, we've also seen a[br]commoditization of our work, of what we 0:44:13.030,0:44:17.230 do. We see people looking to land their[br]job at the Google, the Facebook. And to do 0:44:17.230,0:44:25.150 that, they sand down the sharp edges[br]of their own beliefs, of their own seeds, 0:44:25.150,0:44:31.500 of their own ideologies. We become more[br]likely to agree, rather than more likely 0:44:31.500,0:44:36.520 to argue. And I think we need to think[br]about what that means for the world when 0:44:36.520,0:44:42.580 we, and our occupation, our specialty in[br]this moment of history—the atomic moment 0:44:42.580,0:44:48.060 of computer science. Our work has never[br]been more important. You can't open a 0:44:48.060,0:44:51.920 newspaper without people talking about[br]cybersecurity, right? Cyber, cyber, cyber. 0:44:51.920,0:44:55.410 Because they don't know you should just[br]say computers; instead they want to invent 0:44:55.410,0:45:03.200 words, right? But the problem here is the[br]world is relying upon us; at the same time, 0:45:03.200,0:45:07.140 we are being pressured to be apolitical.[br]And ladies and gentlemen, I think that is 0:45:07.140,0:45:10.910 wrong, I think that is incorrect. I think[br]we have some of the brightest minds 0:45:10.910,0:45:16.590 in our communities, in this room.[br]And I think what you think, what you 0:45:16.590,0:45:20.270 believe, matters beyond what you can do[br]behind the keyboard. And I think what you 0:45:20.270,0:45:24.770 do behind the keyboard should be an[br]expression, an extension, of making that 0:45:24.770,0:45:30.010 real. Right, look around at the world:[br]look at the fact that we're having to come 0:45:30.010,0:45:35.360 together in conferences, and we're having[br]to hold largely off-topic conversations to 0:45:35.360,0:45:41.630 meet the basic needs of brave people. But[br]can we make that system better? And can we 0:45:41.630,0:45:45.910 do that on a broader stage than what we[br]have here, we're not even talking about 0:45:45.910,0:45:50.920 refugees—we're talking about the entire[br]body of humanity. I think we can, and I 0:45:50.920,0:45:57.540 think we should. We've seen progress,[br]we've seen where we have actually made 0:45:57.540,0:46:01.810 constructive advances here. You see in the[br]United States there's always this constant 0:46:01.810,0:46:05.930 talk about encryption, government spying[br]backdoors into it; the FBI is having to 0:46:05.930,0:46:13.710 beg on both knees corporations not to use[br]secure communications. It was not so very 0:46:13.710,0:46:17.550 long ago, ladies and gentlemen, that that[br]would have seemed like a joke. The 0:46:17.550,0:46:21.280 governments would have simply presumed[br]that they could have banned this easily, 0:46:21.280,0:46:25.060 they could have made the rule, set the[br]rules, and we would have to live by them. 0:46:25.060,0:46:28.971 Without even having a chance to consider[br]whether they were right or wrong, simply 0:46:28.971,0:46:33.780 because it was their sovereign decision.[br]But we are now a part of that sovereign: 0:46:33.780,0:46:38.770 this world is larger. Our ability to be[br]involved in our societies, our 0:46:38.770,0:46:45.020 democracies, and more broadly across[br]borders, our world is larger. And with 0:46:45.020,0:46:50.520 this role we need to be thinking about[br]what we can do. Maybe you're not a lawyer, 0:46:50.520,0:46:56.600 right? Maybe you have no influence in Hong[br]Kong; God knows I don't, right? Maybe we 0:46:56.600,0:47:03.590 can't guarantee the courts will be fair.[br]Maybe we cannot guarantee that the police 0:47:03.590,0:47:08.470 are going to be accurate. Maybe we cannot[br]guarantee that the government is going to 0:47:08.470,0:47:19.560 serve the people. But maybe we can ensure[br]that we don't need them to. And that is a 0:47:19.560,0:47:24.230 revolutionary idea. But it's a basic idea,[br]it's an old idea, 0:47:24.230,0:47:26.510 it's one that's as old as hacking itself. 0:47:26.510,0:47:32.530 We don't want to be told what to do. And[br]that's not to say that all government is 0:47:32.530,0:47:35.900 the enemy that's, not to say that we[br]shouldn't do anything at all. That doesn't 0:47:35.900,0:47:41.181 mean that, you know, all rules are bad.[br]But all rules should be challenged, all 0:47:41.181,0:47:47.511 rules should be proven. All implementations[br]should be tested. And that 0:47:47.511,0:47:53.470 goes beyond APIs, ladies and gentlemen.[br]And I hope, based on this you will help 0:47:53.470,0:47:58.920 Ajit, Supun, Nadeeka, Vanessa and their[br]kids. And I hope, ladies and gentlemen, 0:47:58.920,0:48:03.290 you will not stop there.[br]Thank you very much. 0:48:03.290,0:48:23.471 [Applause][br]Edward Snowden: Just to be clear, I have 0:48:23.471,0:48:47.040 no audio, but I can see you. Thank you.[br][Applause] 0:48:47.040,0:48:52.160 Robert Tibbo: Thank you,[br]thank you so much, Ed. 0:48:52.160,0:48:56.230 Edward Snowden: And thank you, thank you.[br]I don't know if we have time for 0:48:56.230,0:49:01.120 questions: I can't hear real well. Robert,[br]if you want to take them or anyone else. 0:49:01.120,0:49:05.140 Or if we're behind schedule—I know CCC is[br]always tight—we can move on to the next … 0:49:05.140,0:49:06.530 Robert Tibbo: Well there's two things. 0:49:06.530,0:49:13.930 I think, I think probably, there should be[br]at least one question for you tonight. But 0:49:13.930,0:49:20.070 the Snowden refugees are gonna … [br]they're gonna come on screen right after 0:49:20.070,0:49:27.040 Ed answers the question. So you're gonna[br]have an opportunity to meet all seven of 0:49:27.040,0:49:32.530 Ed Snowden, Snowden's guardians or[br]guardian angels. So one question 0:49:32.530,0:49:41.900 Edward Snowden: And if I could ask the CCC[br]technical team: if you could type this for 0:49:41.900,0:49:46.430 me, that would help, because[br]I can't hear at all. 0:49:46.430,0:49:51.040 Question: Hi, so, thank you. So Russian[br]President Putin has said multiple times 0:49:51.040,0:49:57.300 that you met with Russian officials in[br]Hong Kong? At what point did that happen, 0:49:57.300,0:50:02.420 and, if it was during you staying with the[br]refugees, how did that work? 0:50:02.420,0:50:09.110 Edward Snowden: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear[br]the question but I think it was something 0:50:09.110,0:50:13.750 about the Russians, right? And so I'm glad[br]somebody asked, because this gets into the 0:50:13.750,0:50:22.850 whole doubting thing, right? Of course[br]we're gonna get the Russian question, 0:50:22.850,0:50:26.980 right? Well look, a lot of people are[br]interested in this, and a lot of people 0:50:26.980,0:50:30.420 wonder, because there's all of these[br]conspiracy theories out here. It's it's a 0:50:30.420,0:50:37.230 fabulous wonderful thing that we have[br]this skepticism, but it should also be 0:50:37.230,0:50:42.730 reasonable, right? Whenever we look at[br]argumentation, whenever we look at doubt, 0:50:42.730,0:50:49.690 there's this ancient rule. Which is,[br]that which is asserted without evidence 0:50:49.690,0:50:55.130 must be dismissed without evidence.[br]Because otherwise, we're wasting our time 0:50:55.130,0:50:59.160 We don't just want to be engaged in[br]speculation. There was a whole book 0:50:59.160,0:51:05.460 written by some crazy guy that was this[br]missing days theory, right? Where like 0:51:05.460,0:51:10.490 before I was even at the Mira, I was[br]secretly sneaking around with the 0:51:10.490,0:51:15.750 Russians, and it simply didn't happen.[br]They said I wasn't at the Mira hotel, I 0:51:15.750,0:51:22.530 had a, like, some handler or somebody like[br]that in in Hong Kong. And I was staying 0:51:22.530,0:51:27.650 with them. But the funny thing is we[br]actually had hotel receipts, right? So 0:51:27.650,0:51:30.980 this book comes out and we published them[br]and then they're like, “Oh! But you know, 0:51:30.980,0:51:36.200 maybe we just got it wrong, maybe it was a[br]little bit whatever.” But the reality is, 0:51:36.200,0:51:45.800 guys, look: what makes more sense, when we[br]talk about doubt? The idea that a guy 0:51:45.800,0:51:51.520 who's making a hell of a lot of money[br]without a high school degree in the United 0:51:51.520,0:52:00.270 States, working at the NSA, working at the[br]CIA; in Hawaii with a, living with a 0:52:00.270,0:52:04.880 beautiful woman that he loves very much,[br]that he's been together for years, is gonna 0:52:04.880,0:52:12.320 set his life on fire to go run off to Russia,[br]right? Particularly when his argument is 0:52:12.320,0:52:16.950 primarily against surveillance. Does that[br]make sense, okay? And then going beyond 0:52:16.950,0:52:23.970 this: if that's the case, right, and he[br]is a Russian spy: why in the hell does he 0:52:23.970,0:52:29.240 go to Hong Kong, first, right? Why doesn't[br]he just fly to Moscow, right? But setting 0:52:29.240,0:52:35.700 that aside, we got all these double games[br]and these wheels within wheels where I 0:52:35.700,0:52:43.150 didn't even choose to be in Russia. I had[br]a transit ticket that was just supposed to 0:52:43.150,0:52:48.070 be a layover for like 12 hours or[br]something like that in Moscow, en-route to 0:52:48.070,0:52:53.480 Latin America. And this is publicly known![br]This isn't, like, speculation, this 0:52:53.480,0:53:00.010 isn't assertion. It's documented fact; you[br]can still go on Twitter and find pictures 0:53:00.010,0:53:06.430 of the plane to Cuba that was packed full[br]of journalists taking pictures of my empty 0:53:06.430,0:53:10.650 seat and Aeroflot leaked the ticket,[br]right, where where I was in it 0:53:10.650,0:53:16.540 or whatever. But it just goes on and on.[br]We got this continuing today, where I 0:53:16.540,0:53:19.340 just released a new app with the[br]freedom of the press foundation and 0:53:19.340,0:53:22.050 the Guardian project. Maybe some[br]of you guys have heard about it. 0:53:22.050,0:53:25.100 It's called Haven. It's an Android app, right, 0:53:25.100,0:53:30.170 It's completely open-source. It's free,[br]it's not for pay, there's no profit motive 0:53:30.170,0:53:36.890 in this. And we had, like, some former CIA[br]guys out there go into the meeting going, 0:53:36.890,0:53:41.150 “There's no way this isn't a Russian[br]government backdoor!” First of all, guys, 0:53:41.150,0:53:44.530 it's open source. It's … the program's[br]not that big, it's in Java. Just go look 0:53:44.530,0:53:50.530 at the code yourself. It's not there. But[br]even, even if it were there, it could be 0:53:50.530,0:53:58.910 there or wherever, guess how many lines of[br]code I wrote on Haven, guys. Zero, right? 0:53:58.910,0:54:03.140 I'm not a developer. I'm not trying to be.[br]The person you want to thank is Nate 0:54:03.140,0:54:07.150 Freitas. Who is, by the way, an American.[br]He's not a Russian, I don't think he's 0:54:07.150,0:54:13.120 even ever been to Russia. I don't even[br]have access to the git repo, specifically 0:54:13.120,0:54:18.050 to avoid people being able to make these[br]arguments. To try to undermine the 0:54:18.050,0:54:23.230 application. So even if I were a Russian[br]spy, right? Even if this were some sneaky 0:54:23.230,0:54:30.020 trick, planned the long game to try to get[br]into people's phones. How would that even 0:54:30.020,0:54:37.420 work, right? So just to answer the[br]question formally I would say: thank you 0:54:37.420,0:54:41.220 for being doubtful, thank you for being[br]skeptical, but at the same time, don't be 0:54:41.220,0:55:03.200 crazy. Thank you.[br][Applause] 0:55:04.380,0:55:11.080 Robert Tibbo: Alright the, the next group[br]of people will be the Snowden refugees. 0:55:11.080,0:55:16.020 They're gonna come on in about a minute,[br]and there are a few things I also wanted 0:55:16.020,0:55:26.090 to disclose to you and … help you[br]understand that the Hong Kong government 0:55:26.090,0:55:30.420 has taken a view in all the cases I've[br]done, that the Philippines in Sri Lanka 0:55:30.420,0:55:39.171 are safe countries that have rule of law[br]and provide state protection. And that 0:55:39.171,0:55:46.000 couldn't be further from the truth. So[br]very quickly, under the President 0:55:46.000,0:55:53.600 Duterte's, and I would call it an[br]authoritarian regime, in the Philippines, 0:55:53.600,0:55:58.990 he's instituted martial law in Mindanao.[br]He successfully, in December, had that 0:55:58.990,0:56:05.311 extended for a year, but without lawful[br]basis. He broke off. He actually 0:56:05.311,0:56:11.580 ordered emergency … a state of emergency[br]across the country earlier this year. 0:56:11.580,0:56:16.510 Over 10,000 people have lost their lives[br]in the name of his drug war. Which 0:56:16.510,0:56:29.130 in fact, is just a façade for basically[br]creating fear in the Philippines. And he's 0:56:29.130,0:56:34.270 expanded that war on drugs targeting[br]politicians, journalists, and political 0:56:34.270,0:56:41.010 activists. And only a few months ago, he[br]threatened the United Nations Special 0:56:41.010,0:56:48.900 Rapporteur on or extrajudicial killings[br]and summary executions by telling her that 0:56:48.900,0:56:55.630 if he sees her he's going to slap her in[br]the face. He's a self-confessed murderer. 0:56:55.630,0:57:00.270 He broke off negotiations, peace talks,[br]with the New People's Army—and this is 0:57:00.270,0:57:06.760 the group that persecuted Vanessa. And[br]here are my clients. 0:57:06.760,0:57:46.420 [Applause][br]Robert Tibbo: Vanessa, Supun, Nadeeka, 0:57:46.420,0:57:51.670 Ajit: can you hear everybody?[br]Daughter: Hi! 0:57:51.670,0:58:02.221 Robert Tibbo: Alright, so what I'd like to[br]do is, I'd like to open this up to Q&A. So 0:58:02.221,0:58:07.170 if you'd like … if you have any questions[br]for my clients, they'd be more than happy 0:58:07.170,0:58:14.880 to to try to answer your questions.[br][Silence followed by laughter] 0:58:14.880,0:58:27.560 Robert Tibbo: Don't be afraid! All right,[br]so. So Vanessa's from the Philippines, and 0:58:27.560,0:58:36.940 the other three adults are from Sri Lanka.[br]And so we've been doing everything to keep 0:58:36.940,0:58:45.120 their cases alive in Hong Kong, and also[br]advocating to the Canadian government to, 0:58:45.120,0:58:51.890 to act quickly, to act promptly. A couple[br]things I'll mention about the Snowden 0:58:51.890,0:58:56.400 refugees is that I raised their asylum[br]claims for the children under the United 0:58:56.400,0:59:02.310 Nations Convention on rights of the child.[br]And the Hong Kong government had signed 0:59:02.310,0:59:09.980 that International Convention, but decided[br]that they didn't have to follow it. They 0:59:09.980,0:59:14.880 said, because we didn't incorporate it[br]into domestic legislation, these children 0:59:14.880,0:59:18.830 don't have the benefit on the UN[br]Convention and rights to the child. And 0:59:18.830,0:59:27.000 refused to assess their asylum claims on[br]that basis. So Hong Kong, they're without 0:59:27.000,0:59:32.900 a doubt, the richest jurisdiction in the[br]world. This is how they view the treatment 0:59:32.900,0:59:39.870 of the vulnerable, but in particular,[br]vulnerable children. Vanessa, is there 0:59:39.870,0:59:46.380 anything you'd like to say? Oh are there[br]questions? Yes, please. 0:59:46.380,0:59:53.770 Question: Yes, I think the German[br]government should be ash… the German 0:59:53.770,0:59:59.740 government should be ashamed that[br]Edward Snowden cannot come here 0:59:59.740,1:00:07.050 as a political refugee. Would it be helpful[br]if we pressure the German government 1:00:07.050,1:00:14.780 to give political refugee status to[br]Edward Snowden's guardian angels? 1:00:14.780,1:00:17.930 If the Canadian government is[br]not moving fast enough, maybe 1:00:17.930,1:00:22.800 we can get the German government[br]to move fast enough? 1:00:22.800,1:00:40.601 [Applause][br]Robert Tibbo: Vanessa, Supun; the question 1:00:40.601,1:00:44.310 is: if Canada doesn't act, would you[br]like it if the German government is 1:00:44.310,1:00:51.770 asked to act? To provide asylum to you[br]and the other families. 1:00:51.770,1:01:02.470 [Silence}[br]Robert Tibbo: Can you hear? Are you able 1:01:02.470,1:01:17.160 to hear us? I think we've lost the sound.[br]Yes definitely, definitely. 1:01:17.160,1:01:27.550 [Applause][br]There are only seven Snowden refugees in 1:01:27.550,1:01:33.950 the world. Who did the extraordinary. And[br]as you learned tonight, their families in 1:01:33.950,1:01:39.290 Sri Lanka did the extraordinary. To[br]protect Edward Snowden. Because they knew 1:01:39.290,1:01:49.570 it was the right thing to do. And without[br]without hesitation. There; it is 1:01:49.570,1:01:57.340 extraordinary that in this world today,[br]that there's no room for seven refugees. 1:01:57.340,1:02:09.440 No room. These specific extraordinary[br]people. And, it's just, it would be an 1:02:09.440,1:02:14.241 easy one step forward by the German[br]government to offer them asylum. There's 1:02:14.241,1:02:18.270 another question, I think,[br]from number seven. 1:02:18.270,1:02:23.010 Mic 7: Yeah hi—I just wanted to say[br]thank you to the refugees for their 1:02:23.010,1:02:27.190 bravecy… their bravery.[br][Applause] 1:02:27.190,1:02:38.780 Mic 7: For our privacy. And also ask,[br]given the difficulties of your situation 1:02:38.780,1:02:46.830 before you met this man:[br]What compelled you to help him? 1:02:46.830,1:02:59.500 Robert Tibbo: Can you guys hear the[br]question? Can you hear? It looks like 1:02:59.500,1:03:09.030 we've lost the sound again. There we go,[br]it sounds working. All right, can you, can 1:03:09.030,1:03:30.300 you hear? Can you hear?[br]Vanessa: Now we can hear you 1:03:30.300,1:03:48.610 Robert Tibbo: You can hear now right? Why[br]did you help Mr. Snowden? Vanessa, why did 1:03:48.610,1:03:56.630 you all, why did you all help mr. Snowden?[br]Vanessa: Because he needs help, and we 1:03:56.630,1:04:12.570 were able to help him.[br][Applause] 1:04:12.570,1:04:19.060 Robert Tibbo: And now after everything[br]that's happened over the last five years, 1:04:19.060,1:04:22.280 would you do it again?[br]Vanessa: Yes 1:04:22.280,1:04:31.380 [Applause][br]Mic 7: Thank you 1:04:33.250,1:04:37.490 Robert Tibbo: All right, we're gonna leave[br]you, leave you for the evening, Vanessa, 1:04:37.490,1:04:48.050 Supun, Nadeeka, Ajit, Satum, Kiana.[br]Thank you so much for showing up tonight. 1:04:48.050,1:05:17.390 [Applause][br]Robert Tibbo: I need to get one more slide 1:05:17.390,1:05:19.770 up.[br]Herald: It's up, it's up 1:05:19.770,1:05:23.440 Robert Tibbo: Thank you. If you go to[br]fortherefugees site, it's a new site 1:05:23.440,1:05:29.500 that's been launched as of today. And it[br]has a variety of options if you'd like to 1:05:29.500,1:05:35.010 donate. And we ask you to help. These[br]families need help. And the money goes to 1:05:35.010,1:05:39.400 them—it doesn't go to the lawyers, it[br]doesn't go to administrators, it all goes 1:05:39.400,1:05:47.820 to the families 100%. And there's Bitcoin,[br]credit card. Tap, there, there's different 1:05:47.820,1:05:52.320 ways you can get the cash to the families,[br]yes. There can be telegraphic transfers, 1:05:52.320,1:06:00.030 and somebody here in Leipzig could could[br]accept the cash and send it on to 1:06:00.030,1:06:05.410 fortherefugees in Montreal. And so I'll[br]leave it at that, I think we're over time 1:06:05.410,1:06:10.270 Herald: Yeah, we're a little bit over time.[br]Thank you very much, once again, great 1:06:10.270,1:06:19.210 talk[br][Applause] 1:06:19.210,1:06:24.365 [Music] 1:06:24.365,1:06:39.000 subtitles created by c3subtitles.de[br]in the year 2017. Join, and help us!