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Welcome back to On the Level -
a series in which I play awesome
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video game stages, alongside
the designers who made them.
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This time I’m playing one of my favourite games
of 2021: the endlessly creative co-op adventure,
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It Takes Two. This is a game about a bickering
married couple - Cody and May - who get turned
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into toys and then must work together to
travel through madcap miniature worlds.
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And that includes the level featured in
today’s video: a tree in Cody and May’s garden.
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Which is actually full of squirrel soldiers,
killer wasps, and a giant robot bee. To fight
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back, the couple have a pair of handy weapons:
Cody has a gun that shoots big globs of orange
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sap - and May has a crossbow that fires
lit matches. And when the two collide -
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*Explosion*.
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To find out how this level was made, I talked
to Oliver Granlund, a designer at Hazelight - who was
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one of the designers responsible for
this level’s layout and game mechanics.
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Now, usually on this series I will play the level,
and the designer watches my screen over Zoom.
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But as this is a co-op game, I actually got to
play with Oliver - I picked Cody and he chose May.
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And so, without further
ado, here’s our conversation
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as we played through It Takes
Two’s second chapter: The Tree.
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CODY: Ah, this way!
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MAY: What?! You're never gonna make that jump!
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CODY: Yeah? Watch me!
Argh!
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MARK: So I always like to start by asking:
how did this level begin development?
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OLIVER: Originally, art were just
exploring settings. You know. We
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know we're going to be shrunk,
what kind of places could be fun?
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And tree was one of them that was explored by
art very early as a very interesting location.
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And design right now is just doing
prototyping, just going crazy with
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tons of different mechanics - and we found
the sap and match gun. For the very beginning
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they were just loose prototypes but at some point
they were paired together with the tree. They
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went through each and every mechanic and, like,
paired it to a setting that art had prototyped.
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And then we essentially gave each, like,
designer or a pair of designers a level
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and then told them to, you know, make it, and
come up with mechanics and everything in between.
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MARK: So you and designer Robert Johansson were
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responsible for the tree and also the
snow globe, is that is that right?
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OLIVER: Yes that is correct. So I thought
it would be interesting to show this level
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because a lot of people worked on this. This
part was designed by a level designer named
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Henrik Sandin. This one was actually made quite
late. From your perspective it might seem like
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of course this came first, but this actually came
very late. And when the rest of the tree was made
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there were no swinging for example, and we
had to go back and add that in everywhere.
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I think this part turned out really
well, especially like a very calm
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piece in between the storm, kind of. And also
very much establishes everything around it.
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There are some cool smart things that are actually
done here with like ants moving in the direction
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you're supposed to go. Like here for example. I
think this was originally accidental: you know,
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art added them in and then people started
following the ants and then, you know, the ants
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led you down like a hill and people jumped off and
died. Henrik used that knowledge to his advantage.
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MAY: We haven't got time for
this! Is this a shortcut or not?
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SQUIRREL: The wasps have invaded our tree, wiped
out most of our tribe. You two must kill them.
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MARK: So how did the sap and match gun develop
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from a prototype to the final
mechanic we see in the game?
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OLIVER: In the original version of it,
it was only you sapped and you exploded.
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*Explosion*
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Which was very cool, especially for combat, but it
didn't really work if we wanted to do puzzles. So
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that was one of the first things we
did when taking them from a prototype
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stage to the next level is that we
looked into how can we make them
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into more than just a fire and forget kind of
thing. And that's where we started pushing,
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for example, the weight mechanic
and the spinner mechanic.
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An interesting thing here is that this is one of
the few places where we actually have a separate
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tutorial for the players because, like,
if you see a shooting sign (like on May’s
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screen) both players are gonna shoot it. And if
you see yellow… you know, the common ‘use this’
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language that's been established by games: both
just shot at both things and were super confused.
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MARK: So you had to make sure each player,
like, understood their separate roles?
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OLIVER: Exactly. One thing we noticed, since
we added weight as a property to, for example,
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the sap gun is that we had to be very grounded
for people to be able to understand this.
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For example, if you weigh something down and
something goes up they need to be connected.
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If you look at a lot of other levels they'll
have just straight up, you know, Super Mario
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floating platforms. So what we did is for
each level we set up our own rule set and
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our own internal logic. It's basically like
teaching a player a new game in an hour.
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MARK: And what challenges
did you face in doing that?
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OLIVER: Well it's interesting because the sap
gun is a very systemic weapon that has a lot of
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freedom. You can shoot this anywhere. And it was
a decision we made very early on where you can
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you can go two routes: you
can either go the the very
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restricted route where you'll have a white
spot in a black room and that's the only
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place you can shoot. Or you can do the other
way around, and that's the route we went with.
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This could create problems where, you know, this
cage… I have progress videos for you on. It's a
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very interesting progress of it. So this is one
of the earliest prototypes I ever made. It might
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look super different, this big wasp nest, but the
actual gameplay is very similar. But the problem
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was that you could sap on the outside, where May
couldn't reach. And here we have version two:
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yeah this also hurts my soul. So Cody saps the
roof instantly, so May has to look straight up…
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oh no. And, you know, it's just not
nice. A lot of the work we did with these
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mechanics was eliminating places where you
can do things that just doesn't feel nice.
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And we still manage to keep the puzzle intact,
with just tons of iteration and simplification.
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Design by subtraction. And I think that was
really helpful here. Like some things came out
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kind of fully formed, but most things always
needs, like, at least one or two passes.
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MARK: Okay, so this is the first co-op game
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on the show. How did you go
about designing for two players?
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OLIVER: I think we can break it down to three
types of co-op. You have what we call parallel
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co-op, and that is essentially just you're playing
your own single player game with another person.
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And then you have step-by-step co-op,
which is essentially like you do something,
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that allows me to do something, it goes back
and forth kind of. And then we have the third
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one which is like simultaneous co-op, which is
when we're both having to act at the same time.
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We wanted a variety of all of these
and I think pacing those moments
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in co-op is a big challenge to to make right.
And that's something we care about a lot.
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MARK: This lab section is great,
what can you tell me about it?
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OLIVER: Here is one of the super early
blockouts. Oh this is also, as you see,
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this is cringe-worthy to to watch. You know,
it hurts. The general idea here… you know,
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the side-scroller camera, which made
everything way way better, it's not here yet.
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MARK: And so when did that come in?
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OLIVER: I think it was still relatively early
that we started experimenting with that.
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But I think a lot of these things, like
that you see here, they are obvious but
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it's more like I've built it, it doesn't work,
okay… what's the next step to make this work?
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And a lot of the iteration was like
that, you know, initial idea, oh cool
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they're gonna spin, and then not realising
that there is gonna be camera problems,
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for example. And then you know, oh sh*t it's gonna
work great if we just add a side-scrolling camera.
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CODY: Hey, let me get out of here!
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OLIVER: Oh yes, have you played this one?
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MARK: No, I didn't see this the
first time I played, I’m scared now.
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OLIVER: Yeah you should be.
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BOTH: *laughter*.
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MARK: How did these side interactions come about?
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OLIVER: After each big milestone, we basically
played through the game and we played through
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with some play testers and then we looked at what
problems there were. And one thing we reacted
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to was that there was too little to do, and so
we went on a spree of creating both mini games
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and the side interactions. And there
actually ended up quite a lot of them.
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And how this one came about was, essentially, it
started with a very simple ‘wouldn't it be fun
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if you could trap your friend’ and then ridicule
them. And then ridicule turned into torture and,
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yeah, it went downhill from there.
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This kind of became our collectible in
a way. We had a discussion very early,
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because we're a platformer, you know,
of course we're gonna have collectibles.
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Right? Question mark. And we tried that and we
didn't find a good purpose for it. We wanted to go
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another route, like we want to give meaning to the
player or something they'd want. And what ended up
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happening was we created so many minigames and
then we ended up hiding them a bit because they
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were sometimes a bit distracting, so that actually
became our kind of collectible in the end.
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MAY: Something’s coming!
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CODY: Killer wasps!
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MARK: This is our first combat
encounter. What was that like to design?
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OLIVER: One thing that's very interesting about
co-op combat is you have to think about it in a
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whole different way than you would normal combat.
Especially if you're going for the simultaneous
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co-op where you're both acting. So, for example,
in this case we actually have an asymmetrical
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relationship where you're the instigator and I'm
the detonator. Which means that I actually don't
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have a lot to do until you sap one of them.
So what we've done in the AI is make sure that
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more of them are aggressive to May, making it
more interesting for me until she can detonate.
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The other one is how do you handle
if you're playing with a partner who
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who's not as skilled as you, or the other
way around? And I think that that was one
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of the harder issues we had to answer. I think
Tree is actually the hardest level in the game
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in terms of introducing a new player to it. It's
the only level with combat and aiming for combat.
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But as you can tell when you play it… like, the
auto aim system is very lenient and, like, we
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try to make the gameplay less about ‘can I hit the
skill shot’ and more about making sure you dodge
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the wasp. Making sure that that you're spraying
the right thing. And like all of that stuff
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instead. It's still one of the hardest mechanics
for people who don't know how to use both sticks,
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but it ended up being way more usable than most
first or third person shooters were at that stage.
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MAY: Interesting mechanic looks
like some type of tug of war.
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OLIVER: Oh you're good at this! Oh no!
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MARK: Yeah! Oh no that was
easy. We need a rematch!
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OLIVER: I'll take a rematch on that
one. This has to be cut from the show.
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MARK: Ah!
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OLIVER: Oh. Are you playing with a keyboard?
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MARK: Nope, just an Xbox controller.
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OLIVER: : Okay. I'm ashamed.
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MARK: So why did you decide to
add in competitive minigames?
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OLIVER: So the whole game is about corporation,
and it's very hard to break the pace of that.
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And I think that a big reasoning behind
us doing that was wanting to create,
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you know, a variation in moments, essentially, for
the couples. Also kind of enforcing the story of
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them bickering. We had them in some places where,
you know, the characters are bickering - now the
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players will be bickering. And it’s kind of
fun and funny when you see that working out.
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And we tried to create a variety of minigames as
well that would allow different kinds of players
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to win. We even have a literal chessboard in
there. So the idea was that not everything
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would have to be technically skilled, because
then the same person would win over and over.
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MARK: I love this giant vault
door, it has a really cool design.
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OLIVER: This one was actually the
original, where you would spray
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on it to explode it. But it had to be so
tiny to not make your camera go wide. So
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we ended up switching for this, basically
turning. So, instead, we iterated on it and
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made it into this lid actually. So the
prototypes were basically just moved around.
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MARK: Just how important
is that iteration process?
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OLIVER: I would say iteration was immensely
important. We didn't have a lot of time
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to actually, like, make everything perfect.
We aren’t triple A, we can't spend however
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much time we want on something. But we need
to make it so that it's good enough for the
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player. Iteration was an immense part of that, I'd
say. Even though a lot of the ideas were similar,
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I'd say the actual execution of them
were quite different - wildly different,
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from beginning to end. Especially when you
have so many mechanics that you're teaching.
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Like half of it was, you know, working on the
mechanics themselves. Maybe this isn't clear,
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maybe this isn't good. Can we communicate this
better? Another half of that was just iterating on
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the puzzles themselves, making them smooth, making
sure it's fun and intuitive. A lot of the things
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that are fun here, they aren't fun first pass.
Taking something from idea to fun gameplay - it
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takes a lot more work than than you might realise.
Because the way we worked, it's very similar to
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how Respawn structure their action blocks: make
something in a week, and throw it in there. The
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one deceiving thing, though, is that even though
it might take like a week to prototype and get
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playable, it might take way longer to polish. And
that's something we realised, like, painfully so.
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MAY: Don't worry, it's just
a squirrel inside a robot.
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CODY: Yeah! A very big robot. It’s trying to kill
us. You know, maybe we should just turn back…
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OLIVER: This is the cutscene that was added in
later in the game when we realised… holy sh*t,
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this level is growing. So we had like a storyboard
for the tree and then eventually we looked it over
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and we saw that it was supposed to be one hour…
now if you play the tree you know that it's
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probably more than an hour. It's bordering
on two hours. This actually was a problem
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because we had diluted the story with more
gameplay because we we had so many prototypes.
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One place where we actually filled in with
story what was these places where, like, okay,
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here we're gonna need to put a cut scene.
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MARK: It must be really difficult to pace
a story when the level keeps changing…
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OLIVER: Yeah, totally. And I think
it’s… especially for this type of game,
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knowing how long can you go without having
story, and also how long can you watch a
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cutscene without any gameplay. It's a very
fine balance to not bore the players, but also
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not having them lose interest in their larger
purpose in the story. It's interesting because
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it's something you don't really see until the game
is done. A big reason why a lot of this doesn't
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land for a lot of games is because you can't
see it as a whole until very late. You don't
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know if a segment is gonna get extended or
shrunk, and it's very hard to judge that
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without the whole context. You're gonna have to
do a lot of imagining to see the whole there.
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MARK: And when you're balancing the story
and gameplay, does one ever win out?
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OLIVER: The previous game we made was
A Way Out which was very story focused.
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In this game I think that gameplay won
out, but we try to keep them very balanced.
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One of our mottos is to try to marry gameplay and
story - keep them together. We want some mechanics
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to have a multi-purpose kind of… you know,
they’re filling story. For example, like, the
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magnets are about attraction. Clockwork is about
time. You know, we call them emotional levels.
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MARK: So one of the things I love about this
game is just the sheer variety of gameplay.
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Where did that come from?
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OLIVER: That was one of our core pillars
all the way through. We don't want to
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repeat things. And so we we questioned
the very classical Nintendo's game design,
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you know the four step level design
rule. That's a great way to do it
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and we do at some places, but we were more
interested in cramming out as much variety
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as we could. In another game the whole boat
thing could have been like an entire game,
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but here it's a five minute segment. We could
have definitely extended and had some ideas for
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how to make it 30 minutes long, but I think
that would have ultimately made a worse game.
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MARK: How much depth do you give a mechanic if
it's only going to be there for a few minutes?
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OLIVER: There is a lesson there
that depth doesn't mean it's good
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if you don't have time to use it. And I
think that's something where we talk about
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‘finding good enough’ which is one of our
kind of pillars as well. Like ‘variety’
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and ‘finding good enough’. And they go hand in
hand. How deep does it have to be? It doesn't
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have to be like a deep 20 hour mechanic if you're
just gonna do it for five minutes. And I think
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that's a very important thing: knowing when to
stop. Because the players might not appreciate
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anything beyond that point. What we did now is
we try to take all the best things that we found
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and put them in the level instead of, you know,
finding all the things and dragging them out.
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CODY: Whoa, I think they're
bringing out the big guns now!
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OLIVER: This thing took it took a while to get
working: the swarm technology, the one with the
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hammer, the whole system for this. And for it to
go like seamlessly from one fight into this slide.
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This was quite a lot of work but I
think it was it was worth it in the end.
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CODY: Hey hey! Don't do that!
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OLIVER:
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Sometimes as a designer you're kind of like
I'm doing this thing, it's going to be very
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very expensive, I really hope it's gonna be cool
so I'm not wasting everyone's time, you know.
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MARK: Yeah, as a designer like
you're giving lots of work to
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programmers and artists. So how do
you make that relationship work?
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OLIVER: I do believe it's
very important to think of,
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you know, the final look before you actually
commit to anything. We give art, you know,
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like an abstract piece of gameplay and it's
like ‘what could this be?’ and, you know,
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art sits there, and they're looking at it, and
they're like… it's not fun for anyone.
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MARK: Are there times when an artist made
something that like really surprised you?
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OLIVER: So, so many things. Like the the whole
lab section, you know the big wheels, this one
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was kind of like, I’d say, one of the prototypes
that didn't really have a good context. You know.
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Why do you have big spinning wheels? And they
turned it into this very elaborate lab that ended
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up influencing parts of the story. And I think
that a lot of the times both art and programming
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as well would just build things
that surprised us and I think that,
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you know, it's very true that game
development is, you know, it's a team sport.
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CODY: Aww… now what!
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MAY: I think we need to head that way…
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CODY: Come on May, we can't swim in this.
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MAY: We're going by boat! Help me out!
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OLIVER: I wanted to show you the iteration of
the boat because you asked me a bit about how we
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prototyped and I actually have the setup here.
The initial idea was that you'd shoot and the
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boat would propel in the other direction. This
is a terrible idea: you don't see where you're
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going. Absolutely terrible. And, you know, it's
no worries - we made it in like a very short time.
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So then we took the the second question:
okay how can we make this in a way that
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feels fun and easy to control? We landed on
this one which was basically you controlled
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it with a rudder. This was very fun to control
but it didn't match the kind of rules we had set
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for ourselves. As I said before, each kind of
designer of a level set rules and Robert and I
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had decided that our things were gonna be kinetic.
We were gonna avoid as much UI as possible and we
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would like to use the weapons. Instead of having a
lever you press Y on, you would blow something up.
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So that's when we came up with essentially
taking the same kind of function but tying
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it to the actual mechanic. So here you
press the fire button to just start going.
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I think we're great at being
reactive: we make something,
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play test it, talk about it, and then we change
it. I think that that's one of our strengths.
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It's definitely like one of the things that
I think made this game great in the long run.
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MAY: Wow! They are beautiful!
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CODY: Yeah… deadly beauty. Jellyfish
can be lethal, we better get moving.
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MARK: So at this point the level
starts getting really weird:
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were there rules for how
strange the game could get?
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OLIVER: No, no. There definitely wasn’t.
In meetings the feedback was ‘could we make
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it a bit crazier’ from Josef… I think,
like, think Avatar on LSD or something.
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So we did. It's definitely out there: this
is one of the moments where people playing,
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you know, they’re like ‘are we still in the tree’?
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CODY: You know, I am getting
really tired of falling.
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MAY: Well be grateful you're in good shape.
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CODY: Oh yeah? Thanks May!
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MAY: I meant good shape in this world.
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CODY: Oh.
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MARK: What was your approach to pacing the level?
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OLIVER: So I think this is something we probably
should have paid a bit more attention to because
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we were just focused on creating cool sh*t and
variety. A lot of games have to care about pacing
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in another way than we do: what they pace is
the repetition of content. Here you're gonna have
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platforming, here you're gonna have a combat
encounter, here you're gonna have platforming,
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here you're gonna have combat again. And to
not make that boring you have to make sure
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that you're pacing it correctly with enough
variety. we didn't have that problem as our
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game was just full of variety by the baseline.
We just created new mechanics all the time.
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But we still have to make sure we pace
intensity so that people don't get exhausted or
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people don't get bored. You still have to make
sure to pull the intensity curve up and down.
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CODY: Oh, whoa…
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MAY: What is this place?
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CODY: Uh, I don't know but they look pretty angry.
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MAY: Yeah they do.
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OLIVER: This one is one of the most intense
fights in the game actually.
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MARK: What do you remember about designing it?
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OLIVER: We actually wanted the beetle to be
like a mini enemy. And at one point we said,
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yeah, we don't need that variety - should we
just make it into a boss? Which is not really
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what we intended because there
is a boss right after this.
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But after the passes it became that
way - I missed it, that was my fault…
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MARK: No worries!
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OLIVER: And I remember iterating on this so
many times to make it more difficult for, like,
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platformer and reducing the skill it needed from
a mechanical or an aiming level. For example the
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grates were both a switch up from what you'd done
earlier but also reduce the amount of, you know,
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how much aiming you need to do. In an earlier
version we had it so that you had to like shoot it
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on the butt, but it required like a lot of
mechanical skill and communication on our
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side to make that happen, you know. To go in
behind, aim, you know, it was a lot of stuff…
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CODY: Well, uh, you know the queen? She has all
the nectar. So if you help us take her down,
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you can have as much nectar as you want!
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BEETLE: Oh yummy! What are we
waiting for? Come on, jump on!
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MAY: Jump!
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QUEEN WASP: Intruders!
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MARK: Okay so now we're facing the
final boss of the level and I was
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just curious about the design
of the game's health system.
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OLIVER: We actually had some different health
systems we prototyped. We prototyped a Gears
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of War type of health system where one player
dies and you have to go and revive them. That
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didn't work because of the sheer variety of our
gameplay, you never know if you're dying during
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a platforming section or if you're separated.
So that didn't work. We tried a shared health
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bar in the very middle of the screen and this idea
seems great: you're sharing health, that's co-op,
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but what happened is if you had one player that
was really good and one that was really bad, the
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bad player would just take damage over and over
and then they would both die - instead of allowing
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the good player to carry them. So what we ended
up on is just like a timer that that goes down,
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as long as you're both living. It becomes this
kind of cheer on, like, ‘don't die, don't die,
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I'm almost back!’ that ended up being actually
quite effectful I'd say. We generally didn't want
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players to have to replay parts either, that
kind of goes against our motto of variation.
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Our health system ties into that because if one
of us dies that's fine and then we'll just spawn
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in eventually, so it basically becomes like
you have two lives. It's fun to die because
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then you feel like I'm challenged and you
get that stress, but it's not fun to redo it.
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*Explosions*
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OLIVER: It's funny because a lot of people
reacted to the beetle dying here. Which,
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for us, the beetle was kind of a throw-in,
like, that was a one week prototype that we
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threw in. They were like ‘oh no the
beetle’ and we're like, ‘oh yeah,
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the beetle, that's right’, and we didn't
think of that at all. It's kind of funny.
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MAY: Come on Cody, over here! You drive!
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CODY: What, May, this is a plane
- it's not a station wagon!
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MAY: Just fly!
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MARK: This plane section is really
memorable, what can you tell me about it?
-
OLIVER: So this was made by Per Stenbeck.
You had the storyboards already,
-
and we had the plane in there from like a
story perspective, I think, before there
-
was a prototype. And I think that this could
have easily just been like a flight section
-
that's that's kind of cool but it took some
turns where it went even further than that.
-
And what happened was that they had this idea
of the squirrels that are flying behind you
-
that they would like land on the plane and
you'd have to like shoot them off-- oops.
-
MARK: Sorry!
-
OLIVER: They they were talking about that and
they were like ‘oh what if you could jump out
-
of the turret and like kinda kick them off’
and then somebody said ‘like Street Fighter?’.
-
SQUIRREL: Time to say goodbye little doll.
Can't wait to smash your wooden face!
-
MAY: I can't wait to kick your furry arse!
-
OLIVER: You know it's one of those things where
in a lot of game companies those ‘what-ifs’, they
-
don't happen. But they do happen here and I think
that's one amazing quality about Hazelight. And I
-
think kudos to everyone who worked on that because
I think it turned out to be a great highlight.
-
ANNOUNCER: KO!
-
MAY: I’m here!
-
OLIVER: This part is like a homage to Brothers:
A Tale of Two Sons where you have a section kinda
-
like this but with the brothers, but now in co-op.
And, yeah, it worked excellently. And I think this
-
whole section is great because you get variation.
You know we've gone through three stages of plane
-
but they all feel different.
And I think that speaks to the,
-
you know, like integral to the way we
worked was just variety and both from art,
-
programming, and design, everyone really
got to add their own flair to everything
-
and have so much ownership that it
just naturally became so different.
-
CODY: Oh! Oh!
-
MAY: That is the last time I'm flying
by the seat of your pants.
-
CODY: Oh ha-ha, you're real
comedian, you know that?
-
MAY: Ah, thank you.
-
MARK: And so there we have it.
-
It was fascinating to hear about how the sap and
match gun evolved from a purely combat-focused
-
mechanic, to a puzzle-solving tool. And it was
great to look at the step-by-step process of going
-
from prototype to polished game mechanic. Plus,
this conversation really highlighted the very
-
collaborate nature of level design. And, as such,
Oliver wanted to thank a handful of colleagues -
-
OLIVER: I would like to thank Robert, Alexander,
and Tom, who helped with the video. and I would
-
like to thank Robert, Per, Henrik, and Filip
who all worked on Tree and made it excellent.
-
As usual, a full level playthrough and
conversation is available exclusively to
-
Patreon backers. And if you want
to support Game Maker’s Toolkit,
-
please check out this quick YouTube ad before
we get to the indie game recommendation.
-
My indie game recommendation this time is Umurangi
Generation - a low-poly photography game with a
-
subversive sense of humour. In each level you're
dropped into a 3D environment with a camera
-
and a list of things to snap. You'll need
to find each target and figure out the right
-
lens to use and the right spot to stand on.
If you agree with me that photography is an
-
excellent video game mechanic, play Umurangi
Generation. It's out now on PC and Switch.