0:00:00.240,0:00:04.160 Welcome back to On the Level - [br]a series in which I play awesome 0:00:04.160,0:00:07.520 video game stages, alongside [br]the designers who made them. 0:00:08.080,0:00:14.560 This time I’m playing one of my favourite games [br]of 2021: the endlessly creative co-op adventure, 0:00:14.560,0:00:20.160 It Takes Two. This is a game about a bickering [br]married couple - Cody and May - who get turned 0:00:20.160,0:00:24.880 into toys and then must work together to [br]travel through madcap miniature worlds. 0:00:24.880,0:00:30.160 And that includes the level featured in [br]today’s video: a tree in Cody and May’s garden. 0:00:30.160,0:00:35.920 Which is actually full of squirrel soldiers, [br]killer wasps, and a giant robot bee. To fight 0:00:35.920,0:00:41.680 back, the couple have a pair of handy weapons: [br]Cody has a gun that shoots big globs of orange 0:00:41.680,0:00:46.769 sap - and May has a crossbow that fires [br]lit matches. And when the two collide - 0:00:46.769,0:00:48.320 *Explosion*. 0:00:48.320,0:00:54.400 To find out how this level was made, I talked [br]to Oliver Granlund, a designer at Hazelight - who was 0:00:54.400,0:00:58.720 one of the designers responsible for [br]this level’s layout and game mechanics. 0:00:58.720,0:01:04.080 Now, usually on this series I will play the level, [br]and the designer watches my screen over Zoom. 0:01:04.080,0:01:11.040 But as this is a co-op game, I actually got to [br]play with Oliver - I picked Cody and he chose May. 0:01:11.680,0:01:14.960 And so, without further [br]ado, here’s our conversation 0:01:14.960,0:01:18.560 as we played through It Takes [br]Two’s second chapter: The Tree. 0:01:22.360,0:01:25.840 CODY: Ah, this way! 0:01:27.160,0:01:29.920 MAY: What?! You're never gonna make that jump! 0:01:29.920,0:01:34.252 CODY: Yeah? Watch me![br]Argh! 0:01:34.720,0:01:38.720 MARK: So I always like to start by asking: [br]how did this level begin development? 0:01:38.720,0:01:42.720 OLIVER: Originally, art were just [br]exploring settings. You know. We 0:01:42.720,0:01:45.360 know we're going to be shrunk, [br]what kind of places could be fun? 0:01:45.360,0:01:50.560 And tree was one of them that was explored by [br]art very early as a very interesting location. 0:01:51.120,0:01:55.760 And design right now is just doing [br]prototyping, just going crazy with 0:01:55.760,0:02:00.880 tons of different mechanics - and we found [br]the sap and match gun. For the very beginning 0:02:00.880,0:02:05.600 they were just loose prototypes but at some point [br]they were paired together with the tree. They 0:02:05.600,0:02:10.800 went through each and every mechanic and, like, [br]paired it to a setting that art had prototyped. 0:02:10.800,0:02:15.600 And then we essentially gave each, like, [br]designer or a pair of designers a level 0:02:15.600,0:02:20.160 and then told them to, you know, make it, and [br]come up with mechanics and everything in between. 0:02:20.160,0:02:22.960 MARK: So you and designer Robert Johansson were 0:02:22.960,0:02:26.320 responsible for the tree and also the [br]snow globe, is that is that right? 0:02:26.320,0:02:30.240 OLIVER: Yes that is correct. So I thought [br]it would be interesting to show this level 0:02:30.240,0:02:35.040 because a lot of people worked on this. This [br]part was designed by a level designer named 0:02:35.040,0:02:40.640 Henrik Sandin. This one was actually made quite [br]late. From your perspective it might seem like 0:02:40.640,0:02:45.920 of course this came first, but this actually came [br]very late. And when the rest of the tree was made 0:02:45.920,0:02:50.640 there were no swinging for example, and we [br]had to go back and add that in everywhere. 0:02:50.640,0:02:54.080 I think this part turned out really [br]well, especially like a very calm 0:02:54.080,0:02:58.800 piece in between the storm, kind of. And also [br]very much establishes everything around it. 0:02:58.800,0:03:04.080 There are some cool smart things that are actually [br]done here with like ants moving in the direction 0:03:04.080,0:03:08.640 you're supposed to go. Like here for example. I [br]think this was originally accidental: you know, 0:03:08.640,0:03:13.680 art added them in and then people started [br]following the ants and then, you know, the ants 0:03:13.680,0:03:18.880 led you down like a hill and people jumped off and [br]died. Henrik used that knowledge to his advantage. 0:03:18.880,0:03:27.647 MAY: We haven't got time for [br]this! Is this a shortcut or not? 0:03:34.520,0:03:43.040 SQUIRREL: The wasps have invaded our tree, wiped [br]out most of our tribe. You two must kill them. 0:03:43.040,0:03:45.520 MARK: So how did the sap and match gun develop 0:03:45.520,0:03:48.000 from a prototype to the final [br]mechanic we see in the game? 0:03:48.000,0:03:53.320 OLIVER: In the original version of it, [br]it was only you sapped and you exploded. 0:03:53.320,0:03:54.320 *Explosion* 0:03:54.320,0:04:00.000 Which was very cool, especially for combat, but it [br]didn't really work if we wanted to do puzzles. So 0:04:00.000,0:04:03.680 that was one of the first things we [br]did when taking them from a prototype 0:04:03.680,0:04:06.880 stage to the next level is that we [br]looked into how can we make them 0:04:06.880,0:04:11.120 into more than just a fire and forget kind of [br]thing. And that's where we started pushing, 0:04:11.120,0:04:14.720 for example, the weight mechanic [br]and the spinner mechanic. 0:04:14.720,0:04:19.360 An interesting thing here is that this is one of [br]the few places where we actually have a separate 0:04:19.360,0:04:24.400 tutorial for the players because, like, [br]if you see a shooting sign (like on May’s 0:04:24.400,0:04:29.600 screen) both players are gonna shoot it. And if [br]you see yellow… you know, the common ‘use this’ 0:04:29.600,0:04:34.800 language that's been established by games: both [br]just shot at both things and were super confused. 0:04:34.800,0:04:37.920 MARK: So you had to make sure each player, [br]like, understood their separate roles? 0:04:37.920,0:04:42.640 OLIVER: Exactly. One thing we noticed, since [br]we added weight as a property to, for example, 0:04:42.640,0:04:48.320 the sap gun is that we had to be very grounded [br]for people to be able to understand this. 0:04:48.320,0:04:51.920 For example, if you weigh something down and [br]something goes up they need to be connected. 0:04:51.920,0:04:56.000 If you look at a lot of other levels they'll [br]have just straight up, you know, Super Mario 0:04:56.000,0:05:01.280 floating platforms. So what we did is for [br]each level we set up our own rule set and 0:05:01.280,0:05:05.920 our own internal logic. It's basically like [br]teaching a player a new game in an hour. 0:05:05.920,0:05:07.760 MARK: And what challenges [br]did you face in doing that? 0:05:07.760,0:05:13.920 OLIVER: Well it's interesting because the sap [br]gun is a very systemic weapon that has a lot of 0:05:13.920,0:05:18.640 freedom. You can shoot this anywhere. And it was [br]a decision we made very early on where you can 0:05:18.640,0:05:22.000 you can go two routes: you [br]can either go the the very 0:05:22.000,0:05:26.480 restricted route where you'll have a white [br]spot in a black room and that's the only 0:05:26.480,0:05:30.880 place you can shoot. Or you can do the other [br]way around, and that's the route we went with. 0:05:30.880,0:05:36.800 This could create problems where, you know, this [br]cage… I have progress videos for you on. It's a 0:05:36.800,0:05:42.400 very interesting progress of it. So this is one [br]of the earliest prototypes I ever made. It might 0:05:42.400,0:05:49.990 look super different, this big wasp nest, but the [br]actual gameplay is very similar. But the problem 0:05:49.990,0:05:55.920 was that you could sap on the outside, where May [br]couldn't reach. And here we have version two: 0:05:55.920,0:06:03.360 yeah this also hurts my soul. So Cody saps the [br]roof instantly, so May has to look straight up… 0:06:04.000,0:06:10.480 oh no. And, you know, it's just not [br]nice. A lot of the work we did with these 0:06:10.480,0:06:15.680 mechanics was eliminating places where you [br]can do things that just doesn't feel nice. 0:06:15.680,0:06:21.520 And we still manage to keep the puzzle intact, [br]with just tons of iteration and simplification. 0:06:21.520,0:06:26.480 Design by subtraction. And I think that was [br]really helpful here. Like some things came out 0:06:26.480,0:06:30.800 kind of fully formed, but most things always [br]needs, like, at least one or two passes. 0:06:30.800,0:06:33.280 MARK: Okay, so this is the first co-op game 0:06:33.280,0:06:36.880 on the show. How did you go [br]about designing for two players? 0:06:36.880,0:06:41.760 OLIVER: I think we can break it down to three [br]types of co-op. You have what we call parallel 0:06:41.760,0:06:46.880 co-op, and that is essentially just you're playing [br]your own single player game with another person. 0:06:46.880,0:06:51.760 And then you have step-by-step co-op, [br]which is essentially like you do something, 0:06:51.760,0:06:56.080 that allows me to do something, it goes back [br]and forth kind of. And then we have the third 0:06:56.080,0:07:01.280 one which is like simultaneous co-op, which is [br]when we're both having to act at the same time. 0:07:01.280,0:07:05.520 We wanted a variety of all of these [br]and I think pacing those moments 0:07:05.520,0:07:10.640 in co-op is a big challenge to to make right. [br]And that's something we care about a lot. 0:07:10.640,0:07:13.760 MARK: This lab section is great, [br]what can you tell me about it? 0:07:13.760,0:07:18.240 OLIVER: Here is one of the super early [br]blockouts. Oh this is also, as you see, 0:07:18.240,0:07:24.480 this is cringe-worthy to to watch. You know, [br]it hurts. The general idea here… you know, 0:07:24.480,0:07:27.680 the side-scroller camera, which made [br]everything way way better, it's not here yet. 0:07:27.680,0:07:28.800 MARK: And so when did that come in? 0:07:28.800,0:07:34.880 OLIVER: I think it was still relatively early [br]that we started experimenting with that. 0:07:34.880,0:07:39.200 But I think a lot of these things, like [br]that you see here, they are obvious but 0:07:39.200,0:07:44.320 it's more like I've built it, it doesn't work, [br]okay… what's the next step to make this work? 0:07:44.320,0:07:48.400 And a lot of the iteration was like [br]that, you know, initial idea, oh cool 0:07:48.400,0:07:53.360 they're gonna spin, and then not realising [br]that there is gonna be camera problems, 0:07:53.360,0:07:58.960 for example. And then you know, oh sh*t it's gonna [br]work great if we just add a side-scrolling camera. 0:08:03.160,0:08:05.680 CODY: Hey, let me get out of here! 0:08:05.680,0:08:07.920 OLIVER: Oh yes, have you played this one? 0:08:07.920,0:08:12.343 MARK: No, I didn't see this the [br]first time I played, I’m scared now. 0:08:12.343,0:08:13.926 OLIVER: Yeah you should be. 0:08:13.926,0:08:15.666 BOTH: *laughter*. 0:08:15.666,0:08:18.240 MARK: How did these side interactions come about? 0:08:18.240,0:08:22.400 OLIVER: After each big milestone, we basically [br]played through the game and we played through 0:08:22.400,0:08:27.280 with some play testers and then we looked at what [br]problems there were. And one thing we reacted 0:08:27.280,0:08:33.680 to was that there was too little to do, and so [br]we went on a spree of creating both mini games 0:08:33.680,0:08:37.360 and the side interactions. And there [br]actually ended up quite a lot of them. 0:08:37.360,0:08:42.640 And how this one came about was, essentially, it [br]started with a very simple ‘wouldn't it be fun 0:08:42.640,0:08:47.840 if you could trap your friend’ and then ridicule [br]them. And then ridicule turned into torture and, 0:08:47.840,0:08:50.080 yeah, it went downhill from there. 0:08:50.080,0:08:54.640 This kind of became our collectible in [br]a way. We had a discussion very early, 0:08:54.640,0:08:58.080 because we're a platformer, you know, [br]of course we're gonna have collectibles. 0:08:58.080,0:09:04.960 Right? Question mark. And we tried that and we [br]didn't find a good purpose for it. We wanted to go 0:09:04.960,0:09:10.240 another route, like we want to give meaning to the [br]player or something they'd want. And what ended up 0:09:10.240,0:09:14.640 happening was we created so many minigames and [br]then we ended up hiding them a bit because they 0:09:14.640,0:09:21.840 were sometimes a bit distracting, so that actually [br]became our kind of collectible in the end. 0:09:21.840,0:09:23.512 MAY: Something’s coming! 0:09:23.512,0:09:24.734 CODY: Killer wasps! 0:09:24.734,0:09:29.360 MARK: This is our first combat [br]encounter. What was that like to design? 0:09:29.360,0:09:34.400 OLIVER: One thing that's very interesting about [br]co-op combat is you have to think about it in a 0:09:34.400,0:09:39.840 whole different way than you would normal combat. [br]Especially if you're going for the simultaneous 0:09:39.840,0:09:44.400 co-op where you're both acting. So, for example, [br]in this case we actually have an asymmetrical 0:09:44.400,0:09:48.800 relationship where you're the instigator and I'm [br]the detonator. Which means that I actually don't 0:09:48.800,0:09:54.240 have a lot to do until you sap one of them. [br]So what we've done in the AI is make sure that 0:09:54.240,0:09:58.800 more of them are aggressive to May, making it [br]more interesting for me until she can detonate. 0:09:58.800,0:10:03.040 The other one is how do you handle [br]if you're playing with a partner who 0:10:03.040,0:10:08.080 who's not as skilled as you, or the other [br]way around? And I think that that was one 0:10:08.080,0:10:12.800 of the harder issues we had to answer. I think [br]Tree is actually the hardest level in the game 0:10:12.800,0:10:18.640 in terms of introducing a new player to it. It's [br]the only level with combat and aiming for combat. 0:10:18.640,0:10:23.840 But as you can tell when you play it… like, the [br]auto aim system is very lenient and, like, we 0:10:23.840,0:10:29.440 try to make the gameplay less about ‘can I hit the [br]skill shot’ and more about making sure you dodge 0:10:29.440,0:10:34.000 the wasp. Making sure that that you're spraying [br]the right thing. And like all of that stuff 0:10:34.000,0:10:38.560 instead. It's still one of the hardest mechanics [br]for people who don't know how to use both sticks, 0:10:38.560,0:10:45.840 but it ended up being way more usable than most [br]first or third person shooters were at that stage. 0:10:45.840,0:10:50.040 MAY: Interesting mechanic looks [br]like some type of tug of war. 0:10:50.040,0:10:52.080 OLIVER: Oh you're good at this! Oh no! 0:10:52.080,0:10:56.560 MARK: Yeah! Oh no that was [br]easy. We need a rematch! 0:10:57.440,0:11:02.160 OLIVER: I'll take a rematch on that [br]one. This has to be cut from the show. 0:11:03.360,0:11:07.120 MARK: Ah! 0:11:07.120,0:11:08.800 OLIVER: Oh. Are you playing with a keyboard? 0:11:08.800,0:11:10.435 MARK: Nope, just an Xbox controller. 0:11:10.435,0:11:11.760 OLIVER: : Okay. I'm ashamed. 0:11:11.760,0:11:14.640 MARK: So why did you decide to [br]add in competitive minigames? 0:11:14.640,0:11:21.280 OLIVER: So the whole game is about corporation, [br]and it's very hard to break the pace of that. 0:11:21.280,0:11:26.640 And I think that a big reasoning behind [br]us doing that was wanting to create, 0:11:26.640,0:11:31.360 you know, a variation in moments, essentially, for [br]the couples. Also kind of enforcing the story of 0:11:31.360,0:11:35.600 them bickering. We had them in some places where, [br]you know, the characters are bickering - now the 0:11:35.600,0:11:40.160 players will be bickering. And it’s kind of [br]fun and funny when you see that working out. 0:11:40.160,0:11:45.600 And we tried to create a variety of minigames as [br]well that would allow different kinds of players 0:11:45.600,0:11:50.240 to win. We even have a literal chessboard in [br]there. So the idea was that not everything 0:11:50.240,0:11:54.640 would have to be technically skilled, because [br]then the same person would win over and over. 0:11:54.640,0:11:58.240 MARK: I love this giant vault [br]door, it has a really cool design. 0:11:58.240,0:12:02.240 OLIVER: This one was actually the [br]original, where you would spray 0:12:02.240,0:12:07.680 on it to explode it. But it had to be so [br]tiny to not make your camera go wide. So 0:12:07.680,0:12:13.360 we ended up switching for this, basically [br]turning. So, instead, we iterated on it and 0:12:13.360,0:12:17.600 made it into this lid actually. So the [br]prototypes were basically just moved around. 0:12:17.600,0:12:19.920 MARK: Just how important [br]is that iteration process? 0:12:19.920,0:12:24.880 OLIVER: I would say iteration was immensely [br]important. We didn't have a lot of time 0:12:24.880,0:12:29.520 to actually, like, make everything perfect. [br]We aren’t triple A, we can't spend however 0:12:29.520,0:12:33.600 much time we want on something. But we need [br]to make it so that it's good enough for the 0:12:33.600,0:12:38.560 player. Iteration was an immense part of that, I'd [br]say. Even though a lot of the ideas were similar, 0:12:38.560,0:12:43.280 I'd say the actual execution of them [br]were quite different - wildly different, 0:12:43.280,0:12:47.440 from beginning to end. Especially when you [br]have so many mechanics that you're teaching. 0:12:47.440,0:12:52.240 Like half of it was, you know, working on the [br]mechanics themselves. Maybe this isn't clear, 0:12:52.240,0:12:56.960 maybe this isn't good. Can we communicate this [br]better? Another half of that was just iterating on 0:12:56.960,0:13:02.000 the puzzles themselves, making them smooth, making [br]sure it's fun and intuitive. A lot of the things 0:13:02.000,0:13:07.920 that are fun here, they aren't fun first pass. [br]Taking something from idea to fun gameplay - it 0:13:07.920,0:13:12.640 takes a lot more work than than you might realise. [br]Because the way we worked, it's very similar to 0:13:12.640,0:13:18.080 how Respawn structure their action blocks: make [br]something in a week, and throw it in there. The 0:13:18.080,0:13:22.000 one deceiving thing, though, is that even though [br]it might take like a week to prototype and get 0:13:22.000,0:13:29.188 playable, it might take way longer to polish. And [br]that's something we realised, like, painfully so. 0:13:31.019,0:13:33.040 MAY: Don't worry, it's just [br]a squirrel inside a robot. 0:13:33.040,0:13:39.840 CODY: Yeah! A very big robot. It’s trying to kill [br]us. You know, maybe we should just turn back… 0:13:39.840,0:13:44.240 OLIVER: This is the cutscene that was added in [br]later in the game when we realised… holy sh*t, 0:13:44.240,0:13:49.680 this level is growing. So we had like a storyboard [br]for the tree and then eventually we looked it over 0:13:49.680,0:13:54.640 and we saw that it was supposed to be one hour… [br]now if you play the tree you know that it's 0:13:54.640,0:13:58.960 probably more than an hour. It's bordering [br]on two hours. This actually was a problem 0:13:58.960,0:14:05.200 because we had diluted the story with more [br]gameplay because we we had so many prototypes. 0:14:05.200,0:14:08.880 One place where we actually filled in with [br]story what was these places where, like, okay, 0:14:08.880,0:14:10.640 here we're gonna need to put a cut scene. 0:14:10.640,0:14:14.320 MARK: It must be really difficult to pace [br]a story when the level keeps changing… 0:14:14.320,0:14:18.640 OLIVER: Yeah, totally. And I think [br]it’s… especially for this type of game, 0:14:18.640,0:14:23.200 knowing how long can you go without having [br]story, and also how long can you watch a 0:14:23.200,0:14:28.640 cutscene without any gameplay. It's a very [br]fine balance to not bore the players, but also 0:14:28.640,0:14:34.000 not having them lose interest in their larger [br]purpose in the story. It's interesting because 0:14:34.000,0:14:39.280 it's something you don't really see until the game [br]is done. A big reason why a lot of this doesn't 0:14:39.280,0:14:44.160 land for a lot of games is because you can't [br]see it as a whole until very late. You don't 0:14:44.160,0:14:49.280 know if a segment is gonna get extended or [br]shrunk, and it's very hard to judge that 0:14:49.280,0:14:53.920 without the whole context. You're gonna have to [br]do a lot of imagining to see the whole there. 0:14:53.920,0:14:58.160 MARK: And when you're balancing the story [br]and gameplay, does one ever win out? 0:14:58.160,0:15:02.560 OLIVER: The previous game we made was [br]A Way Out which was very story focused. 0:15:02.560,0:15:07.280 In this game I think that gameplay won [br]out, but we try to keep them very balanced. 0:15:07.280,0:15:12.720 One of our mottos is to try to marry gameplay and [br]story - keep them together. We want some mechanics 0:15:12.720,0:15:16.880 to have a multi-purpose kind of… you know, [br]they’re filling story. For example, like, the 0:15:16.880,0:15:22.720 magnets are about attraction. Clockwork is about [br]time. You know, we call them emotional levels. 0:15:23.240,0:15:29.280 MARK: So one of the things I love about this [br]game is just the sheer variety of gameplay. 0:15:29.280,0:15:30.400 Where did that come from? 0:15:30.400,0:15:33.600 OLIVER: That was one of our core pillars [br]all the way through. We don't want to 0:15:33.600,0:15:40.000 repeat things. And so we we questioned [br]the very classical Nintendo's game design, 0:15:40.000,0:15:44.480 you know the four step level design [br]rule. That's a great way to do it 0:15:44.480,0:15:49.520 and we do at some places, but we were more [br]interested in cramming out as much variety 0:15:49.520,0:15:53.920 as we could. In another game the whole boat [br]thing could have been like an entire game, 0:15:53.920,0:15:59.120 but here it's a five minute segment. We could [br]have definitely extended and had some ideas for 0:15:59.120,0:16:03.120 how to make it 30 minutes long, but I think [br]that would have ultimately made a worse game. 0:16:03.120,0:16:07.200 MARK: How much depth do you give a mechanic if [br]it's only going to be there for a few minutes? 0:16:07.200,0:16:11.200 OLIVER: There is a lesson there [br]that depth doesn't mean it's good 0:16:11.200,0:16:15.280 if you don't have time to use it. And I [br]think that's something where we talk about 0:16:15.280,0:16:19.920 ‘finding good enough’ which is one of our [br]kind of pillars as well. Like ‘variety’ 0:16:19.920,0:16:24.240 and ‘finding good enough’. And they go hand in [br]hand. How deep does it have to be? It doesn't 0:16:24.240,0:16:29.200 have to be like a deep 20 hour mechanic if you're [br]just gonna do it for five minutes. And I think 0:16:29.200,0:16:34.880 that's a very important thing: knowing when to [br]stop. Because the players might not appreciate 0:16:34.880,0:16:40.320 anything beyond that point. What we did now is [br]we try to take all the best things that we found 0:16:40.320,0:16:44.560 and put them in the level instead of, you know, [br]finding all the things and dragging them out. 0:16:44.560,0:16:48.560 CODY: Whoa, I think they're [br]bringing out the big guns now! 0:16:48.560,0:16:54.320 OLIVER: This thing took it took a while to get [br]working: the swarm technology, the one with the 0:16:54.320,0:17:00.720 hammer, the whole system for this. And for it to [br]go like seamlessly from one fight into this slide. 0:17:00.720,0:17:05.840 This was quite a lot of work but I [br]think it was it was worth it in the end. 0:17:05.840,0:17:07.760 CODY: Hey hey! Don't do that! 0:17:12.120,0:17:13.120 OLIVER: 0:17:13.120,0:17:16.960 Sometimes as a designer you're kind of like [br]I'm doing this thing, it's going to be very 0:17:16.960,0:17:22.480 very expensive, I really hope it's gonna be cool [br]so I'm not wasting everyone's time, you know. 0:17:22.480,0:17:25.280 MARK: Yeah, as a designer like [br]you're giving lots of work to 0:17:25.280,0:17:28.640 programmers and artists. So how do [br]you make that relationship work? 0:17:28.640,0:17:30.960 OLIVER: I do believe it's [br]very important to think of, 0:17:30.960,0:17:35.600 you know, the final look before you actually [br]commit to anything. We give art, you know, 0:17:35.600,0:17:39.600 like an abstract piece of gameplay and it's [br]like ‘what could this be?’ and, you know, 0:17:39.600,0:17:43.840 art sits there, and they're looking at it, and [br]they're like… it's not fun for anyone. 0:17:43.840,0:17:48.080 MARK: Are there times when an artist made [br]something that like really surprised you? 0:17:48.080,0:17:54.080 OLIVER: So, so many things. Like the the whole [br]lab section, you know the big wheels, this one 0:17:54.080,0:17:58.080 was kind of like, I’d say, one of the prototypes [br]that didn't really have a good context. You know. 0:17:58.080,0:18:02.560 Why do you have big spinning wheels? And they [br]turned it into this very elaborate lab that ended 0:18:02.560,0:18:08.240 up influencing parts of the story. And I think [br]that a lot of the times both art and programming 0:18:08.240,0:18:12.160 as well would just build things [br]that surprised us and I think that, 0:18:12.160,0:18:16.960 you know, it's very true that game [br]development is, you know, it's a team sport. 0:18:18.000,0:18:19.840 CODY: Aww… now what! 0:18:19.840,0:18:21.920 MAY: I think we need to head that way… 0:18:21.920,0:18:25.240 CODY: Come on May, we can't swim in this. 0:18:25.240,0:18:28.640 MAY: We're going by boat! Help me out! 0:18:28.640,0:18:33.760 OLIVER: I wanted to show you the iteration of [br]the boat because you asked me a bit about how we 0:18:33.760,0:18:39.600 prototyped and I actually have the setup here. [br]The initial idea was that you'd shoot and the 0:18:39.600,0:18:43.760 boat would propel in the other direction. This [br]is a terrible idea: you don't see where you're 0:18:43.760,0:18:51.920 going. Absolutely terrible. And, you know, it's [br]no worries - we made it in like a very short time. 0:18:51.920,0:18:56.160 So then we took the the second question: [br]okay how can we make this in a way that 0:18:56.160,0:19:02.080 feels fun and easy to control? We landed on [br]this one which was basically you controlled 0:19:02.080,0:19:08.560 it with a rudder. This was very fun to control [br]but it didn't match the kind of rules we had set 0:19:08.560,0:19:14.880 for ourselves. As I said before, each kind of [br]designer of a level set rules and Robert and I 0:19:14.880,0:19:20.320 had decided that our things were gonna be kinetic. [br]We were gonna avoid as much UI as possible and we 0:19:20.320,0:19:26.000 would like to use the weapons. Instead of having a [br]lever you press Y on, you would blow something up. 0:19:26.000,0:19:31.840 So that's when we came up with essentially [br]taking the same kind of function but tying 0:19:31.840,0:19:37.440 it to the actual mechanic. So here you [br]press the fire button to just start going. 0:19:37.440,0:19:40.720 I think we're great at being [br]reactive: we make something, 0:19:40.720,0:19:45.520 play test it, talk about it, and then we change [br]it. I think that that's one of our strengths. 0:19:45.520,0:19:51.840 It's definitely like one of the things that [br]I think made this game great in the long run. 0:19:51.840,0:19:55.360 MAY: Wow! They are beautiful! 0:19:55.360,0:20:00.480 CODY: Yeah… deadly beauty. Jellyfish [br]can be lethal, we better get moving. 0:20:00.480,0:20:04.320 MARK: So at this point the level [br]starts getting really weird: 0:20:04.320,0:20:07.600 were there rules for how [br]strange the game could get? 0:20:07.600,0:20:14.880 OLIVER: No, no. There definitely wasn’t. [br]In meetings the feedback was ‘could we make 0:20:14.880,0:20:19.440 it a bit crazier’ from Josef… I think, [br]like, think Avatar on LSD or something. 0:20:20.080,0:20:24.160 So we did. It's definitely out there: this [br]is one of the moments where people playing, 0:20:24.160,0:20:26.480 you know, they’re like ‘are we still in the tree’? 0:20:28.200,0:20:31.920 CODY: You know, I am getting [br]really tired of falling. 0:20:31.920,0:20:33.640 MAY: Well be grateful you're in good shape. 0:20:33.640,0:20:35.000 CODY: Oh yeah? Thanks May! 0:20:35.000,0:20:37.760 MAY: I meant good shape in this world. 0:20:37.760,0:20:38.880 CODY: Oh. 0:20:38.880,0:20:41.280 MARK: What was your approach to pacing the level? 0:20:41.280,0:20:44.720 OLIVER: So I think this is something we probably [br]should have paid a bit more attention to because 0:20:44.720,0:20:49.680 we were just focused on creating cool sh*t and [br]variety. A lot of games have to care about pacing 0:20:49.680,0:20:54.720 in another way than we do: what they pace is [br]the repetition of content. Here you're gonna have 0:20:54.720,0:20:58.480 platforming, here you're gonna have a combat [br]encounter, here you're gonna have platforming, 0:20:58.480,0:21:02.320 here you're gonna have combat again. And to [br]not make that boring you have to make sure 0:21:02.320,0:21:07.200 that you're pacing it correctly with enough [br]variety. we didn't have that problem as our 0:21:07.200,0:21:11.760 game was just full of variety by the baseline. [br]We just created new mechanics all the time. 0:21:11.760,0:21:16.160 But we still have to make sure we pace [br]intensity so that people don't get exhausted or 0:21:16.160,0:21:21.600 people don't get bored. You still have to make [br]sure to pull the intensity curve up and down. 0:21:23.960,0:21:26.440 CODY: Oh, whoa… 0:21:26.440,0:21:29.120 MAY: What is this place? 0:21:29.120,0:21:34.000 CODY: Uh, I don't know but they look pretty angry. 0:21:34.000,0:21:36.567 MAY: Yeah they do. 0:21:40.520,0:21:45.120 OLIVER: This one is one of the most intense [br]fights in the game actually. 0:21:45.120,0:21:47.120 MARK: What do you remember about designing it? 0:21:47.120,0:21:52.000 OLIVER: We actually wanted the beetle to be [br]like a mini enemy. And at one point we said, 0:21:52.000,0:21:57.360 yeah, we don't need that variety - should we [br]just make it into a boss? Which is not really 0:21:57.360,0:22:00.400 what we intended because there [br]is a boss right after this. 0:22:00.400,0:22:05.120 But after the passes it became that [br]way - I missed it, that was my fault… 0:22:05.120,0:22:06.000 MARK: No worries! 0:22:06.000,0:22:11.760 OLIVER: And I remember iterating on this so [br]many times to make it more difficult for, like, 0:22:11.760,0:22:17.920 platformer and reducing the skill it needed from [br]a mechanical or an aiming level. For example the 0:22:17.920,0:22:23.440 grates were both a switch up from what you'd done [br]earlier but also reduce the amount of, you know, 0:22:23.440,0:22:28.160 how much aiming you need to do. In an earlier [br]version we had it so that you had to like shoot it 0:22:28.160,0:22:32.800 on the butt, but it required like a lot of [br]mechanical skill and communication on our 0:22:32.800,0:22:37.440 side to make that happen, you know. To go in [br]behind, aim, you know, it was a lot of stuff… 0:22:37.440,0:22:45.280 CODY: Well, uh, you know the queen? She has all [br]the nectar. So if you help us take her down, 0:22:45.391,0:22:47.880 you can have as much nectar as you want! 0:22:47.880,0:22:55.514 BEETLE: Oh yummy! What are we [br]waiting for? Come on, jump on! 0:22:57.347,0:23:01.043 MAY: Jump! 0:23:05.373,0:23:09.120 QUEEN WASP: Intruders! 0:23:09.120,0:23:12.320 MARK: Okay so now we're facing the [br]final boss of the level and I was 0:23:12.320,0:23:15.520 just curious about the design [br]of the game's health system. 0:23:15.520,0:23:20.480 OLIVER: We actually had some different health [br]systems we prototyped. We prototyped a Gears 0:23:20.480,0:23:24.640 of War type of health system where one player [br]dies and you have to go and revive them. That 0:23:24.640,0:23:28.720 didn't work because of the sheer variety of our [br]gameplay, you never know if you're dying during 0:23:28.720,0:23:33.920 a platforming section or if you're separated. [br]So that didn't work. We tried a shared health 0:23:33.920,0:23:40.000 bar in the very middle of the screen and this idea [br]seems great: you're sharing health, that's co-op, 0:23:40.000,0:23:44.080 but what happened is if you had one player that [br]was really good and one that was really bad, the 0:23:44.080,0:23:49.200 bad player would just take damage over and over [br]and then they would both die - instead of allowing 0:23:49.200,0:23:54.800 the good player to carry them. So what we ended [br]up on is just like a timer that that goes down, 0:23:54.800,0:23:59.520 as long as you're both living. It becomes this [br]kind of cheer on, like, ‘don't die, don't die, 0:23:59.520,0:24:04.880 I'm almost back!’ that ended up being actually [br]quite effectful I'd say. We generally didn't want 0:24:04.880,0:24:09.360 players to have to replay parts either, that [br]kind of goes against our motto of variation. 0:24:09.360,0:24:13.760 Our health system ties into that because if one [br]of us dies that's fine and then we'll just spawn 0:24:13.760,0:24:18.080 in eventually, so it basically becomes like [br]you have two lives. It's fun to die because 0:24:18.080,0:24:25.619 then you feel like I'm challenged and you [br]get that stress, but it's not fun to redo it. 0:24:25.619,0:24:32.421 *Explosions* 0:24:32.421,0:24:36.240 OLIVER: It's funny because a lot of people [br]reacted to the beetle dying here. Which, 0:24:36.240,0:24:40.160 for us, the beetle was kind of a throw-in, [br]like, that was a one week prototype that we 0:24:40.160,0:24:43.200 threw in. They were like ‘oh no the [br]beetle’ and we're like, ‘oh yeah, 0:24:43.200,0:24:49.360 the beetle, that's right’, and we didn't [br]think of that at all. It's kind of funny. 0:24:49.360,0:24:53.840 MAY: Come on Cody, over here! You drive! 0:24:53.840,0:24:58.400 CODY: What, May, this is a plane [br]- it's not a station wagon! 0:24:58.400,0:24:59.840 MAY: Just fly! 0:24:59.840,0:25:03.840 MARK: This plane section is really [br]memorable, what can you tell me about it? 0:25:03.840,0:25:08.960 OLIVER: So this was made by Per Stenbeck. [br]You had the storyboards already, 0:25:08.960,0:25:12.480 and we had the plane in there from like a [br]story perspective, I think, before there 0:25:12.480,0:25:18.080 was a prototype. And I think that this could [br]have easily just been like a flight section 0:25:18.080,0:25:24.160 that's that's kind of cool but it took some [br]turns where it went even further than that. 0:25:24.160,0:25:29.680 And what happened was that they had this idea [br]of the squirrels that are flying behind you 0:25:29.680,0:25:33.440 that they would like land on the plane and [br]you'd have to like shoot them off-- oops. 0:25:33.440,0:25:35.360 MARK: Sorry! 0:25:35.360,0:25:40.400 OLIVER: They they were talking about that and [br]they were like ‘oh what if you could jump out 0:25:40.400,0:25:46.080 of the turret and like kinda kick them off’ [br]and then somebody said ‘like Street Fighter?’. 0:25:46.080,0:25:51.360 SQUIRREL: Time to say goodbye little doll. [br]Can't wait to smash your wooden face! 0:25:51.360,0:25:55.840 MAY: I can't wait to kick your furry arse! 0:25:57.560,0:26:03.840 OLIVER: You know it's one of those things where [br]in a lot of game companies those ‘what-ifs’, they 0:26:03.840,0:26:09.680 don't happen. But they do happen here and I think [br]that's one amazing quality about Hazelight. And I 0:26:09.680,0:26:17.111 think kudos to everyone who worked on that because [br]I think it turned out to be a great highlight. 0:26:17.560,0:26:21.295 ANNOUNCER: KO! 0:26:21.295,0:26:23.913 MAY: I’m here! 0:26:25.824,0:26:32.240 OLIVER: This part is like a homage to Brothers: [br]A Tale of Two Sons where you have a section kinda 0:26:32.240,0:26:38.956 like this but with the brothers, but now in co-op. [br]And, yeah, it worked excellently. And I think this 0:26:38.956,0:26:45.684 whole section is great because you get variation. [br]You know we've gone through three stages of plane 0:26:45.684,0:26:49.280 but they all feel different. [br]And I think that speaks to the, 0:26:49.280,0:26:54.960 you know, like integral to the way we [br]worked was just variety and both from art, 0:26:54.960,0:26:59.600 programming, and design, everyone really [br]got to add their own flair to everything 0:26:59.600,0:27:05.840 and have so much ownership that it [br]just naturally became so different. 0:27:05.840,0:27:12.624 CODY: Oh! Oh! 0:27:12.624,0:27:16.000 MAY: That is the last time I'm flying [br]by the seat of your pants. 0:27:16.000,0:27:18.720 CODY: Oh ha-ha, you're real [br]comedian, you know that? 0:27:18.720,0:27:19.820 MAY: Ah, thank you. 0:27:19.820,0:27:21.760 MARK: And so there we have it. 0:27:21.760,0:27:27.040 It was fascinating to hear about how the sap and [br]match gun evolved from a purely combat-focused 0:27:27.040,0:27:32.160 mechanic, to a puzzle-solving tool. And it was [br]great to look at the step-by-step process of going 0:27:32.160,0:27:37.840 from prototype to polished game mechanic. Plus, [br]this conversation really highlighted the very 0:27:37.840,0:27:44.007 collaborate nature of level design. And, as such, [br]Oliver wanted to thank a handful of colleagues - 0:27:44.007,0:27:48.080 OLIVER: I would like to thank Robert, Alexander, [br]and Tom, who helped with the video. and I would 0:27:48.080,0:27:53.120 like to thank Robert, Per, Henrik, and Filip [br]who all worked on Tree and made it excellent. 0:27:53.120,0:27:57.680 As usual, a full level playthrough and [br]conversation is available exclusively to 0:27:57.680,0:28:01.200 Patreon backers. And if you want [br]to support Game Maker’s Toolkit, 0:28:01.200,0:28:06.000 please check out this quick YouTube ad before [br]we get to the indie game recommendation. 0:28:10.880,0:28:16.560 My indie game recommendation this time is Umurangi [br]Generation - a low-poly photography game with a 0:28:16.560,0:28:21.360 subversive sense of humour. In each level you're [br]dropped into a 3D environment with a camera 0:28:21.360,0:28:25.600 and a list of things to snap. You'll need [br]to find each target and figure out the right 0:28:25.600,0:28:30.880 lens to use and the right spot to stand on. [br]If you agree with me that photography is an 0:28:30.880,0:28:37.200 excellent video game mechanic, play Umurangi [br]Generation. It's out now on PC and Switch.