[Script Info]
Title: 
[Events]
Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:00.24,0:00:04.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Welcome back to On the Level - \Na series in which I play awesome
Dialogue: 0,0:00:04.16,0:00:07.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,video game stages, alongside \Nthe designers who made them.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:08.08,0:00:14.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This time I’m playing one of my favourite games \Nof 2021: the endlessly creative co-op adventure,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:14.56,0:00:20.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It Takes Two. This is a game about a bickering \Nmarried couple - Cody and May - who get turned
Dialogue: 0,0:00:20.16,0:00:24.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,into toys and then must work together to \Ntravel through madcap miniature worlds.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:24.88,0:00:30.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that includes the level featured in \Ntoday’s video: a tree in Cody and May’s garden.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:30.16,0:00:35.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which is actually full of squirrel soldiers, \Nkiller wasps, and a giant robot bee. To fight
Dialogue: 0,0:00:35.92,0:00:41.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,back, the couple have a pair of handy weapons: \NCody has a gun that shoots big globs of orange
Dialogue: 0,0:00:41.68,0:00:46.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sap - and May has a crossbow that fires \Nlit matches. And when the two collide -
Dialogue: 0,0:00:46.77,0:00:48.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,*Explosion*.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:48.32,0:00:54.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,To find out how this level was made, I talked \Nto Oliver Granlund, a designer at Hazelight - who was
Dialogue: 0,0:00:54.40,0:00:58.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one of the designers responsible for \Nthis level’s layout and game mechanics.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:58.72,0:01:04.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, usually on this series I will play the level, \Nand the designer watches my screen over Zoom.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:04.08,0:01:11.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But as this is a co-op game, I actually got to \Nplay with Oliver - I picked Cody and he chose May.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:11.68,0:01:14.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so, without further \Nado, here’s our conversation
Dialogue: 0,0:01:14.96,0:01:18.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as we played through It Takes \NTwo’s second chapter: The Tree.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:22.36,0:01:25.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,CODY: Ah, this way!
Dialogue: 0,0:01:27.16,0:01:29.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MAY: What?! You're never gonna make that jump!
Dialogue: 0,0:01:29.92,0:01:34.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,CODY: Yeah? Watch me!\NArgh!
Dialogue: 0,0:01:34.72,0:01:38.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: So I always like to start by asking: \Nhow did this level begin development?
Dialogue: 0,0:01:38.72,0:01:42.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: Originally, art were just \Nexploring settings. You know. We
Dialogue: 0,0:01:42.72,0:01:45.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know we're going to be shrunk, \Nwhat kind of places could be fun?
Dialogue: 0,0:01:45.36,0:01:50.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And tree was one of them that was explored by \Nart very early as a very interesting location.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:51.12,0:01:55.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And design right now is just doing \Nprototyping, just going crazy with
Dialogue: 0,0:01:55.76,0:02:00.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tons of different mechanics - and we found \Nthe sap and match gun. For the very beginning
Dialogue: 0,0:02:00.88,0:02:05.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they were just loose prototypes but at some point \Nthey were paired together with the tree. They
Dialogue: 0,0:02:05.60,0:02:10.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,went through each and every mechanic and, like, \Npaired it to a setting that art had prototyped.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:10.80,0:02:15.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then we essentially gave each, like, \Ndesigner or a pair of designers a level
Dialogue: 0,0:02:15.60,0:02:20.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then told them to, you know, make it, and \Ncome up with mechanics and everything in between.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:20.16,0:02:22.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: So you and designer Robert Johansson were
Dialogue: 0,0:02:22.96,0:02:26.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,responsible for the tree and also the \Nsnow globe, is that is that right?
Dialogue: 0,0:02:26.32,0:02:30.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: Yes that is correct. So I thought \Nit would be interesting to show this level
Dialogue: 0,0:02:30.24,0:02:35.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because a lot of people worked on this. This \Npart was designed by a level designer named
Dialogue: 0,0:02:35.04,0:02:40.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Henrik Sandin. This one was actually made quite \Nlate. From your perspective it might seem like
Dialogue: 0,0:02:40.64,0:02:45.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of course this came first, but this actually came \Nvery late. And when the rest of the tree was made
Dialogue: 0,0:02:45.92,0:02:50.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there were no swinging for example, and we \Nhad to go back and add that in everywhere.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:50.64,0:02:54.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think this part turned out really \Nwell, especially like a very calm
Dialogue: 0,0:02:54.08,0:02:58.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,piece in between the storm, kind of. And also \Nvery much establishes everything around it.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:58.80,0:03:04.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are some cool smart things that are actually \Ndone here with like ants moving in the direction
Dialogue: 0,0:03:04.08,0:03:08.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you're supposed to go. Like here for example. I \Nthink this was originally accidental: you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:08.64,0:03:13.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,art added them in and then people started \Nfollowing the ants and then, you know, the ants
Dialogue: 0,0:03:13.68,0:03:18.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,led you down like a hill and people jumped off and \Ndied. Henrik used that knowledge to his advantage.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:18.88,0:03:27.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MAY: We haven't got time for \Nthis! Is this a shortcut or not?
Dialogue: 0,0:03:34.52,0:03:43.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,SQUIRREL: The wasps have invaded our tree, wiped \Nout most of our tribe. You two must kill them.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:43.04,0:03:45.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: So how did the sap and match gun develop
Dialogue: 0,0:03:45.52,0:03:48.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from a prototype to the final \Nmechanic we see in the game?
Dialogue: 0,0:03:48.00,0:03:53.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: In the original version of it, \Nit was only you sapped and you exploded.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:53.32,0:03:54.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,*Explosion*
Dialogue: 0,0:03:54.32,0:04:00.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which was very cool, especially for combat, but it \Ndidn't really work if we wanted to do puzzles. So
Dialogue: 0,0:04:00.00,0:04:03.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that was one of the first things we \Ndid when taking them from a prototype
Dialogue: 0,0:04:03.68,0:04:06.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,stage to the next level is that we \Nlooked into how can we make them
Dialogue: 0,0:04:06.88,0:04:11.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,into more than just a fire and forget kind of \Nthing. And that's where we started pushing,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:11.12,0:04:14.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for example, the weight mechanic \Nand the spinner mechanic.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:14.72,0:04:19.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,An interesting thing here is that this is one of \Nthe few places where we actually have a separate
Dialogue: 0,0:04:19.36,0:04:24.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tutorial for the players because, like, \Nif you see a shooting sign (like on May’s
Dialogue: 0,0:04:24.40,0:04:29.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,screen) both players are gonna shoot it. And if \Nyou see yellow… you know, the common ‘use this’
Dialogue: 0,0:04:29.60,0:04:34.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,language that's been established by games: both \Njust shot at both things and were super confused.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:34.80,0:04:37.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: So you had to make sure each player, \Nlike, understood their separate roles?
Dialogue: 0,0:04:37.92,0:04:42.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: Exactly. One thing we noticed, since \Nwe added weight as a property to, for example,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:42.64,0:04:48.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the sap gun is that we had to be very grounded \Nfor people to be able to understand this.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:48.32,0:04:51.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,For example, if you weigh something down and \Nsomething goes up they need to be connected.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:51.92,0:04:56.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you look at a lot of other levels they'll \Nhave just straight up, you know, Super Mario
Dialogue: 0,0:04:56.00,0:05:01.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,floating platforms. So what we did is for \Neach level we set up our own rule set and
Dialogue: 0,0:05:01.28,0:05:05.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,our own internal logic. It's basically like \Nteaching a player a new game in an hour.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:05.92,0:05:07.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: And what challenges \Ndid you face in doing that?
Dialogue: 0,0:05:07.76,0:05:13.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: Well it's interesting because the sap \Ngun is a very systemic weapon that has a lot of
Dialogue: 0,0:05:13.92,0:05:18.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,freedom. You can shoot this anywhere. And it was \Na decision we made very early on where you can
Dialogue: 0,0:05:18.64,0:05:22.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can go two routes: you \Ncan either go the the very
Dialogue: 0,0:05:22.00,0:05:26.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,restricted route where you'll have a white \Nspot in a black room and that's the only
Dialogue: 0,0:05:26.48,0:05:30.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,place you can shoot. Or you can do the other \Nway around, and that's the route we went with.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:30.88,0:05:36.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This could create problems where, you know, this \Ncage… I have progress videos for you on. It's a
Dialogue: 0,0:05:36.80,0:05:42.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very interesting progress of it. So this is one \Nof the earliest prototypes I ever made. It might
Dialogue: 0,0:05:42.40,0:05:49.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,look super different, this big wasp nest, but the \Nactual gameplay is very similar. But the problem
Dialogue: 0,0:05:49.99,0:05:55.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was that you could sap on the outside, where May \Ncouldn't reach. And here we have version two:
Dialogue: 0,0:05:55.92,0:06:03.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,yeah this also hurts my soul. So Cody saps the \Nroof instantly, so May has to look straight up…
Dialogue: 0,0:06:04.00,0:06:10.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,oh no. And, you know, it's just not \Nnice. A lot of the work we did with these
Dialogue: 0,0:06:10.48,0:06:15.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mechanics was eliminating places where you \Ncan do things that just doesn't feel nice.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:15.68,0:06:21.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we still manage to keep the puzzle intact, \Nwith just tons of iteration and simplification.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:21.52,0:06:26.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Design by subtraction. And I think that was \Nreally helpful here. Like some things came out
Dialogue: 0,0:06:26.48,0:06:30.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,kind of fully formed, but most things always \Nneeds, like, at least one or two passes.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:30.80,0:06:33.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: Okay, so this is the first co-op game
Dialogue: 0,0:06:33.28,0:06:36.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the show. How did you go \Nabout designing for two players?
Dialogue: 0,0:06:36.88,0:06:41.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: I think we can break it down to three \Ntypes of co-op. You have what we call parallel
Dialogue: 0,0:06:41.76,0:06:46.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,co-op, and that is essentially just you're playing \Nyour own single player game with another person.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:46.88,0:06:51.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then you have step-by-step co-op, \Nwhich is essentially like you do something,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:51.76,0:06:56.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that allows me to do something, it goes back \Nand forth kind of. And then we have the third
Dialogue: 0,0:06:56.08,0:07:01.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one which is like simultaneous co-op, which is \Nwhen we're both having to act at the same time.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:01.28,0:07:05.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We wanted a variety of all of these \Nand I think pacing those moments
Dialogue: 0,0:07:05.52,0:07:10.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in co-op is a big challenge to to make right. \NAnd that's something we care about a lot.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:10.64,0:07:13.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: This lab section is great, \Nwhat can you tell me about it?
Dialogue: 0,0:07:13.76,0:07:18.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: Here is one of the super early \Nblockouts. Oh this is also, as you see,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:18.24,0:07:24.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is cringe-worthy to to watch. You know, \Nit hurts. The general idea here… you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:24.48,0:07:27.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the side-scroller camera, which made \Neverything way way better, it's not here yet.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:27.68,0:07:28.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: And so when did that come in?
Dialogue: 0,0:07:28.80,0:07:34.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: I think it was still relatively early \Nthat we started experimenting with that.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:34.88,0:07:39.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I think a lot of these things, like \Nthat you see here, they are obvious but
Dialogue: 0,0:07:39.20,0:07:44.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's more like I've built it, it doesn't work, \Nokay… what's the next step to make this work?
Dialogue: 0,0:07:44.32,0:07:48.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And a lot of the iteration was like \Nthat, you know, initial idea, oh cool
Dialogue: 0,0:07:48.40,0:07:53.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they're gonna spin, and then not realising \Nthat there is gonna be camera problems,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:53.36,0:07:58.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for example. And then you know, oh sh*t it's gonna \Nwork great if we just add a side-scrolling camera.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:03.16,0:08:05.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,CODY: Hey, let me get out of here!
Dialogue: 0,0:08:05.68,0:08:07.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: Oh yes, have you played this one?
Dialogue: 0,0:08:07.92,0:08:12.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: No, I didn't see this the \Nfirst time I played, I’m scared now.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:12.34,0:08:13.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: Yeah you should be.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:13.93,0:08:15.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,BOTH: *laughter*.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:15.67,0:08:18.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: How did these side interactions come about?
Dialogue: 0,0:08:18.24,0:08:22.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: After each big milestone, we basically \Nplayed through the game and we played through
Dialogue: 0,0:08:22.40,0:08:27.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with some play testers and then we looked at what \Nproblems there were. And one thing we reacted
Dialogue: 0,0:08:27.28,0:08:33.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to was that there was too little to do, and so \Nwe went on a spree of creating both mini games
Dialogue: 0,0:08:33.68,0:08:37.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the side interactions. And there \Nactually ended up quite a lot of them.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:37.36,0:08:42.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And how this one came about was, essentially, it \Nstarted with a very simple ‘wouldn't it be fun
Dialogue: 0,0:08:42.64,0:08:47.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you could trap your friend’ and then ridicule \Nthem. And then ridicule turned into torture and,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:47.84,0:08:50.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,yeah, it went downhill from there.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:50.08,0:08:54.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This kind of became our collectible in \Na way. We had a discussion very early,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:54.64,0:08:58.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because we're a platformer, you know, \Nof course we're gonna have collectibles.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:58.08,0:09:04.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Right? Question mark. And we tried that and we \Ndidn't find a good purpose for it. We wanted to go
Dialogue: 0,0:09:04.96,0:09:10.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,another route, like we want to give meaning to the \Nplayer or something they'd want. And what ended up
Dialogue: 0,0:09:10.24,0:09:14.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,happening was we created so many minigames and \Nthen we ended up hiding them a bit because they
Dialogue: 0,0:09:14.64,0:09:21.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were sometimes a bit distracting, so that actually \Nbecame our kind of collectible in the end.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:21.84,0:09:23.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MAY: Something’s coming!
Dialogue: 0,0:09:23.51,0:09:24.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,CODY: Killer wasps!
Dialogue: 0,0:09:24.73,0:09:29.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: This is our first combat \Nencounter. What was that like to design?
Dialogue: 0,0:09:29.36,0:09:34.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: One thing that's very interesting about \Nco-op combat is you have to think about it in a
Dialogue: 0,0:09:34.40,0:09:39.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whole different way than you would normal combat. \NEspecially if you're going for the simultaneous
Dialogue: 0,0:09:39.84,0:09:44.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,co-op where you're both acting. So, for example, \Nin this case we actually have an asymmetrical
Dialogue: 0,0:09:44.40,0:09:48.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,relationship where you're the instigator and I'm \Nthe detonator. Which means that I actually don't
Dialogue: 0,0:09:48.80,0:09:54.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have a lot to do until you sap one of them. \NSo what we've done in the AI is make sure that
Dialogue: 0,0:09:54.24,0:09:58.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more of them are aggressive to May, making it \Nmore interesting for me until she can detonate.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:58.80,0:10:03.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The other one is how do you handle \Nif you're playing with a partner who
Dialogue: 0,0:10:03.04,0:10:08.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who's not as skilled as you, or the other \Nway around? And I think that that was one
Dialogue: 0,0:10:08.08,0:10:12.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the harder issues we had to answer. I think \NTree is actually the hardest level in the game
Dialogue: 0,0:10:12.80,0:10:18.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in terms of introducing a new player to it. It's \Nthe only level with combat and aiming for combat.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:18.64,0:10:23.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But as you can tell when you play it… like, the \Nauto aim system is very lenient and, like, we
Dialogue: 0,0:10:23.84,0:10:29.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,try to make the gameplay less about ‘can I hit the \Nskill shot’ and more about making sure you dodge
Dialogue: 0,0:10:29.44,0:10:34.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the wasp. Making sure that that you're spraying \Nthe right thing. And like all of that stuff
Dialogue: 0,0:10:34.00,0:10:38.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,instead. It's still one of the hardest mechanics \Nfor people who don't know how to use both sticks,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:38.56,0:10:45.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but it ended up being way more usable than most \Nfirst or third person shooters were at that stage.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:45.84,0:10:50.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MAY: Interesting mechanic looks \Nlike some type of tug of war.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:50.04,0:10:52.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: Oh you're good at this! Oh no!
Dialogue: 0,0:10:52.08,0:10:56.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: Yeah! Oh no that was \Neasy. We need a rematch!
Dialogue: 0,0:10:57.44,0:11:02.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: I'll take a rematch on that \None. This has to be cut from the show.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:03.36,0:11:07.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: Ah!
Dialogue: 0,0:11:07.12,0:11:08.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: Oh. Are you playing with a keyboard?
Dialogue: 0,0:11:08.80,0:11:10.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: Nope, just an Xbox controller.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:10.44,0:11:11.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: : Okay. I'm ashamed.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:11.76,0:11:14.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: So why did you decide to \Nadd in competitive minigames?
Dialogue: 0,0:11:14.64,0:11:21.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: So the whole game is about corporation, \Nand it's very hard to break the pace of that.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:21.28,0:11:26.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think that a big reasoning behind \Nus doing that was wanting to create,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:26.64,0:11:31.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, a variation in moments, essentially, for \Nthe couples. Also kind of enforcing the story of
Dialogue: 0,0:11:31.36,0:11:35.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,them bickering. We had them in some places where, \Nyou know, the characters are bickering - now the
Dialogue: 0,0:11:35.60,0:11:40.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,players will be bickering. And it’s kind of \Nfun and funny when you see that working out.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:40.16,0:11:45.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we tried to create a variety of minigames as \Nwell that would allow different kinds of players
Dialogue: 0,0:11:45.60,0:11:50.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to win. We even have a literal chessboard in \Nthere. So the idea was that not everything
Dialogue: 0,0:11:50.24,0:11:54.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would have to be technically skilled, because \Nthen the same person would win over and over.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:54.64,0:11:58.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: I love this giant vault \Ndoor, it has a really cool design.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:58.24,0:12:02.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: This one was actually the \Noriginal, where you would spray
Dialogue: 0,0:12:02.24,0:12:07.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on it to explode it. But it had to be so \Ntiny to not make your camera go wide. So
Dialogue: 0,0:12:07.68,0:12:13.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we ended up switching for this, basically \Nturning. So, instead, we iterated on it and
Dialogue: 0,0:12:13.36,0:12:17.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,made it into this lid actually. So the \Nprototypes were basically just moved around.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:17.60,0:12:19.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: Just how important \Nis that iteration process?
Dialogue: 0,0:12:19.92,0:12:24.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: I would say iteration was immensely \Nimportant. We didn't have a lot of time
Dialogue: 0,0:12:24.88,0:12:29.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to actually, like, make everything perfect. \NWe aren’t triple A, we can't spend however
Dialogue: 0,0:12:29.52,0:12:33.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,much time we want on something. But we need \Nto make it so that it's good enough for the
Dialogue: 0,0:12:33.60,0:12:38.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,player. Iteration was an immense part of that, I'd \Nsay. Even though a lot of the ideas were similar,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:38.56,0:12:43.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'd say the actual execution of them \Nwere quite different - wildly different,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:43.28,0:12:47.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from beginning to end. Especially when you \Nhave so many mechanics that you're teaching.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:47.44,0:12:52.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Like half of it was, you know, working on the \Nmechanics themselves. Maybe this isn't clear,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:52.24,0:12:56.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,maybe this isn't good. Can we communicate this \Nbetter? Another half of that was just iterating on
Dialogue: 0,0:12:56.96,0:13:02.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the puzzles themselves, making them smooth, making \Nsure it's fun and intuitive. A lot of the things
Dialogue: 0,0:13:02.00,0:13:07.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that are fun here, they aren't fun first pass. \NTaking something from idea to fun gameplay - it
Dialogue: 0,0:13:07.92,0:13:12.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,takes a lot more work than than you might realise. \NBecause the way we worked, it's very similar to
Dialogue: 0,0:13:12.64,0:13:18.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how Respawn structure their action blocks: make \Nsomething in a week, and throw it in there. The
Dialogue: 0,0:13:18.08,0:13:22.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one deceiving thing, though, is that even though \Nit might take like a week to prototype and get
Dialogue: 0,0:13:22.00,0:13:29.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,playable, it might take way longer to polish. And \Nthat's something we realised, like, painfully so.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:31.02,0:13:33.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MAY: Don't worry, it's just \Na squirrel inside a robot.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:33.04,0:13:39.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,CODY: Yeah! A very big robot. It’s trying to kill \Nus. You know, maybe we should just turn back…
Dialogue: 0,0:13:39.84,0:13:44.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: This is the cutscene that was added in \Nlater in the game when we realised… holy sh*t,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:44.24,0:13:49.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this level is growing. So we had like a storyboard \Nfor the tree and then eventually we looked it over
Dialogue: 0,0:13:49.68,0:13:54.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we saw that it was supposed to be one hour… \Nnow if you play the tree you know that it's
Dialogue: 0,0:13:54.64,0:13:58.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,probably more than an hour. It's bordering \Non two hours. This actually was a problem
Dialogue: 0,0:13:58.96,0:14:05.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because we had diluted the story with more \Ngameplay because we we had so many prototypes.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:05.20,0:14:08.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One place where we actually filled in with \Nstory what was these places where, like, okay,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:08.88,0:14:10.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,here we're gonna need to put a cut scene.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:10.64,0:14:14.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: It must be really difficult to pace \Na story when the level keeps changing…
Dialogue: 0,0:14:14.32,0:14:18.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: Yeah, totally. And I think \Nit’s… especially for this type of game,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:18.64,0:14:23.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,knowing how long can you go without having \Nstory, and also how long can you watch a
Dialogue: 0,0:14:23.20,0:14:28.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,cutscene without any gameplay. It's a very \Nfine balance to not bore the players, but also
Dialogue: 0,0:14:28.64,0:14:34.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not having them lose interest in their larger \Npurpose in the story. It's interesting because
Dialogue: 0,0:14:34.00,0:14:39.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's something you don't really see until the game \Nis done. A big reason why a lot of this doesn't
Dialogue: 0,0:14:39.28,0:14:44.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,land for a lot of games is because you can't \Nsee it as a whole until very late. You don't
Dialogue: 0,0:14:44.16,0:14:49.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know if a segment is gonna get extended or \Nshrunk, and it's very hard to judge that
Dialogue: 0,0:14:49.28,0:14:53.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,without the whole context. You're gonna have to \Ndo a lot of imagining to see the whole there.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:53.92,0:14:58.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: And when you're balancing the story \Nand gameplay, does one ever win out?
Dialogue: 0,0:14:58.16,0:15:02.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: The previous game we made was \NA Way Out which was very story focused.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:02.56,0:15:07.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In this game I think that gameplay won \Nout, but we try to keep them very balanced.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:07.28,0:15:12.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One of our mottos is to try to marry gameplay and \Nstory - keep them together. We want some mechanics
Dialogue: 0,0:15:12.72,0:15:16.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to have a multi-purpose kind of… you know, \Nthey’re filling story. For example, like, the
Dialogue: 0,0:15:16.88,0:15:22.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,magnets are about attraction. Clockwork is about \Ntime. You know, we call them emotional levels.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:23.24,0:15:29.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: So one of the things I love about this \Ngame is just the sheer variety of gameplay.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:29.28,0:15:30.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Where did that come from?
Dialogue: 0,0:15:30.40,0:15:33.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: That was one of our core pillars \Nall the way through. We don't want to
Dialogue: 0,0:15:33.60,0:15:40.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,repeat things. And so we we questioned \Nthe very classical Nintendo's game design,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:40.00,0:15:44.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know the four step level design \Nrule. That's a great way to do it
Dialogue: 0,0:15:44.48,0:15:49.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we do at some places, but we were more \Ninterested in cramming out as much variety
Dialogue: 0,0:15:49.52,0:15:53.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as we could. In another game the whole boat \Nthing could have been like an entire game,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:53.92,0:15:59.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but here it's a five minute segment. We could \Nhave definitely extended and had some ideas for
Dialogue: 0,0:15:59.12,0:16:03.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how to make it 30 minutes long, but I think \Nthat would have ultimately made a worse game.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:03.12,0:16:07.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: How much depth do you give a mechanic if \Nit's only going to be there for a few minutes?
Dialogue: 0,0:16:07.20,0:16:11.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: There is a lesson there \Nthat depth doesn't mean it's good
Dialogue: 0,0:16:11.20,0:16:15.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you don't have time to use it. And I \Nthink that's something where we talk about
Dialogue: 0,0:16:15.28,0:16:19.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,‘finding good enough’ which is one of our \Nkind of pillars as well. Like ‘variety’
Dialogue: 0,0:16:19.92,0:16:24.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and ‘finding good enough’. And they go hand in \Nhand. How deep does it have to be? It doesn't
Dialogue: 0,0:16:24.24,0:16:29.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have to be like a deep 20 hour mechanic if you're \Njust gonna do it for five minutes. And I think
Dialogue: 0,0:16:29.20,0:16:34.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's a very important thing: knowing when to \Nstop. Because the players might not appreciate
Dialogue: 0,0:16:34.88,0:16:40.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,anything beyond that point. What we did now is \Nwe try to take all the best things that we found
Dialogue: 0,0:16:40.32,0:16:44.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and put them in the level instead of, you know, \Nfinding all the things and dragging them out.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:44.56,0:16:48.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,CODY: Whoa, I think they're \Nbringing out the big guns now!
Dialogue: 0,0:16:48.56,0:16:54.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: This thing took it took a while to get \Nworking: the swarm technology, the one with the
Dialogue: 0,0:16:54.32,0:17:00.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hammer, the whole system for this. And for it to \Ngo like seamlessly from one fight into this slide.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:00.72,0:17:05.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This was quite a lot of work but I \Nthink it was it was worth it in the end.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:05.84,0:17:07.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,CODY: Hey hey! Don't do that!
Dialogue: 0,0:17:12.12,0:17:13.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER:
Dialogue: 0,0:17:13.12,0:17:16.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sometimes as a designer you're kind of like \NI'm doing this thing, it's going to be very
Dialogue: 0,0:17:16.96,0:17:22.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very expensive, I really hope it's gonna be cool \Nso I'm not wasting everyone's time, you know.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:22.48,0:17:25.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: Yeah, as a designer like \Nyou're giving lots of work to
Dialogue: 0,0:17:25.28,0:17:28.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,programmers and artists. So how do \Nyou make that relationship work?
Dialogue: 0,0:17:28.64,0:17:30.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: I do believe it's \Nvery important to think of,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:30.96,0:17:35.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, the final look before you actually \Ncommit to anything. We give art, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:35.60,0:17:39.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like an abstract piece of gameplay and it's \Nlike ‘what could this be?’ and, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:39.60,0:17:43.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,art sits there, and they're looking at it, and \Nthey're like… it's not fun for anyone.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:43.84,0:17:48.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: Are there times when an artist made \Nsomething that like really surprised you?
Dialogue: 0,0:17:48.08,0:17:54.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: So, so many things. Like the the whole \Nlab section, you know the big wheels, this one
Dialogue: 0,0:17:54.08,0:17:58.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was kind of like, I’d say, one of the prototypes \Nthat didn't really have a good context. You know.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:58.08,0:18:02.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Why do you have big spinning wheels? And they \Nturned it into this very elaborate lab that ended
Dialogue: 0,0:18:02.56,0:18:08.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,up influencing parts of the story. And I think \Nthat a lot of the times both art and programming
Dialogue: 0,0:18:08.24,0:18:12.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as well would just build things \Nthat surprised us and I think that,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:12.16,0:18:16.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, it's very true that game \Ndevelopment is, you know, it's a team sport.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:18.00,0:18:19.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,CODY: Aww… now what!
Dialogue: 0,0:18:19.84,0:18:21.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MAY: I think we need to head that way…
Dialogue: 0,0:18:21.92,0:18:25.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,CODY: Come on May, we can't swim in this.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:25.24,0:18:28.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MAY: We're going by boat! Help me out!
Dialogue: 0,0:18:28.64,0:18:33.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: I wanted to show you the iteration of \Nthe boat because you asked me a bit about how we
Dialogue: 0,0:18:33.76,0:18:39.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,prototyped and I actually have the setup here. \NThe initial idea was that you'd shoot and the
Dialogue: 0,0:18:39.60,0:18:43.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,boat would propel in the other direction. This \Nis a terrible idea: you don't see where you're
Dialogue: 0,0:18:43.76,0:18:51.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,going. Absolutely terrible. And, you know, it's \Nno worries - we made it in like a very short time.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:51.92,0:18:56.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So then we took the the second question: \Nokay how can we make this in a way that
Dialogue: 0,0:18:56.16,0:19:02.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,feels fun and easy to control? We landed on \Nthis one which was basically you controlled
Dialogue: 0,0:19:02.08,0:19:08.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it with a rudder. This was very fun to control \Nbut it didn't match the kind of rules we had set
Dialogue: 0,0:19:08.56,0:19:14.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for ourselves. As I said before, each kind of \Ndesigner of a level set rules and Robert and I
Dialogue: 0,0:19:14.88,0:19:20.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,had decided that our things were gonna be kinetic. \NWe were gonna avoid as much UI as possible and we
Dialogue: 0,0:19:20.32,0:19:26.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would like to use the weapons. Instead of having a \Nlever you press Y on, you would blow something up.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:26.00,0:19:31.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that's when we came up with essentially \Ntaking the same kind of function but tying
Dialogue: 0,0:19:31.84,0:19:37.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it to the actual mechanic. So here you \Npress the fire button to just start going.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:37.44,0:19:40.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think we're great at being \Nreactive: we make something,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:40.72,0:19:45.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,play test it, talk about it, and then we change \Nit. I think that that's one of our strengths.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:45.52,0:19:51.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's definitely like one of the things that \NI think made this game great in the long run.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:51.84,0:19:55.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MAY: Wow! They are beautiful!
Dialogue: 0,0:19:55.36,0:20:00.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,CODY: Yeah… deadly beauty. Jellyfish \Ncan be lethal, we better get moving.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:00.48,0:20:04.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: So at this point the level \Nstarts getting really weird:
Dialogue: 0,0:20:04.32,0:20:07.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were there rules for how \Nstrange the game could get?
Dialogue: 0,0:20:07.60,0:20:14.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: No, no. There definitely wasn’t. \NIn meetings the feedback was ‘could we make
Dialogue: 0,0:20:14.88,0:20:19.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it a bit crazier’ from Josef… I think, \Nlike, think Avatar on LSD or something.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:20.08,0:20:24.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So we did. It's definitely out there: this \Nis one of the moments where people playing,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:24.16,0:20:26.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, they’re like ‘are we still in the tree’?
Dialogue: 0,0:20:28.20,0:20:31.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,CODY: You know, I am getting \Nreally tired of falling.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:31.92,0:20:33.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MAY: Well be grateful you're in good shape.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:33.64,0:20:35.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,CODY: Oh yeah? Thanks May!
Dialogue: 0,0:20:35.00,0:20:37.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MAY: I meant good shape in this world.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:37.76,0:20:38.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,CODY: Oh.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:38.88,0:20:41.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: What was your approach to pacing the level?
Dialogue: 0,0:20:41.28,0:20:44.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: So I think this is something we probably \Nshould have paid a bit more attention to because
Dialogue: 0,0:20:44.72,0:20:49.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we were just focused on creating cool sh*t and \Nvariety. A lot of games have to care about pacing
Dialogue: 0,0:20:49.68,0:20:54.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in another way than we do: what they pace is \Nthe repetition of content. Here you're gonna have
Dialogue: 0,0:20:54.72,0:20:58.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,platforming, here you're gonna have a combat \Nencounter, here you're gonna have platforming,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:58.48,0:21:02.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,here you're gonna have combat again. And to \Nnot make that boring you have to make sure
Dialogue: 0,0:21:02.32,0:21:07.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you're pacing it correctly with enough \Nvariety. we didn't have that problem as our
Dialogue: 0,0:21:07.20,0:21:11.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,game was just full of variety by the baseline. \NWe just created new mechanics all the time.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:11.76,0:21:16.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But we still have to make sure we pace \Nintensity so that people don't get exhausted or
Dialogue: 0,0:21:16.16,0:21:21.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people don't get bored. You still have to make \Nsure to pull the intensity curve up and down.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:23.96,0:21:26.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,CODY: Oh, whoa…
Dialogue: 0,0:21:26.44,0:21:29.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MAY: What is this place?
Dialogue: 0,0:21:29.12,0:21:34.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,CODY: Uh, I don't know but they look pretty angry.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:34.00,0:21:36.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MAY: Yeah they do.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:40.52,0:21:45.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: This one is one of the most intense \Nfights in the game actually.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:45.12,0:21:47.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: What do you remember about designing it?
Dialogue: 0,0:21:47.12,0:21:52.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: We actually wanted the beetle to be \Nlike a mini enemy. And at one point we said,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:52.00,0:21:57.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,yeah, we don't need that variety - should we \Njust make it into a boss? Which is not really
Dialogue: 0,0:21:57.36,0:22:00.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what we intended because there \Nis a boss right after this.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:00.40,0:22:05.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But after the passes it became that \Nway - I missed it, that was my fault…
Dialogue: 0,0:22:05.12,0:22:06.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: No worries!
Dialogue: 0,0:22:06.00,0:22:11.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: And I remember iterating on this so \Nmany times to make it more difficult for, like,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:11.76,0:22:17.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,platformer and reducing the skill it needed from \Na mechanical or an aiming level. For example the
Dialogue: 0,0:22:17.92,0:22:23.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,grates were both a switch up from what you'd done \Nearlier but also reduce the amount of, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:23.44,0:22:28.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how much aiming you need to do. In an earlier \Nversion we had it so that you had to like shoot it
Dialogue: 0,0:22:28.16,0:22:32.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the butt, but it required like a lot of \Nmechanical skill and communication on our
Dialogue: 0,0:22:32.80,0:22:37.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,side to make that happen, you know. To go in \Nbehind, aim, you know, it was a lot of stuff…
Dialogue: 0,0:22:37.44,0:22:45.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,CODY: Well, uh, you know the queen? She has all \Nthe nectar. So if you help us take her down,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:45.39,0:22:47.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can have as much nectar as you want!
Dialogue: 0,0:22:47.88,0:22:55.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,BEETLE: Oh yummy! What are we \Nwaiting for? Come on, jump on!
Dialogue: 0,0:22:57.35,0:23:01.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MAY: Jump!
Dialogue: 0,0:23:05.37,0:23:09.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,QUEEN WASP: Intruders!
Dialogue: 0,0:23:09.12,0:23:12.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: Okay so now we're facing the \Nfinal boss of the level and I was
Dialogue: 0,0:23:12.32,0:23:15.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just curious about the design \Nof the game's health system.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:15.52,0:23:20.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: We actually had some different health \Nsystems we prototyped. We prototyped a Gears
Dialogue: 0,0:23:20.48,0:23:24.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of War type of health system where one player \Ndies and you have to go and revive them. That
Dialogue: 0,0:23:24.64,0:23:28.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,didn't work because of the sheer variety of our \Ngameplay, you never know if you're dying during
Dialogue: 0,0:23:28.72,0:23:33.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a platforming section or if you're separated. \NSo that didn't work. We tried a shared health
Dialogue: 0,0:23:33.92,0:23:40.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,bar in the very middle of the screen and this idea \Nseems great: you're sharing health, that's co-op,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:40.00,0:23:44.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but what happened is if you had one player that \Nwas really good and one that was really bad, the
Dialogue: 0,0:23:44.08,0:23:49.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,bad player would just take damage over and over \Nand then they would both die - instead of allowing
Dialogue: 0,0:23:49.20,0:23:54.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the good player to carry them. So what we ended \Nup on is just like a timer that that goes down,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:54.80,0:23:59.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as long as you're both living. It becomes this \Nkind of cheer on, like, ‘don't die, don't die,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:59.52,0:24:04.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm almost back!’ that ended up being actually \Nquite effectful I'd say. We generally didn't want
Dialogue: 0,0:24:04.88,0:24:09.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,players to have to replay parts either, that \Nkind of goes against our motto of variation.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:09.36,0:24:13.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Our health system ties into that because if one \Nof us dies that's fine and then we'll just spawn
Dialogue: 0,0:24:13.76,0:24:18.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in eventually, so it basically becomes like \Nyou have two lives. It's fun to die because
Dialogue: 0,0:24:18.08,0:24:25.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then you feel like I'm challenged and you \Nget that stress, but it's not fun to redo it.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:25.62,0:24:32.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,*Explosions*
Dialogue: 0,0:24:32.42,0:24:36.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: It's funny because a lot of people \Nreacted to the beetle dying here. Which,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:36.24,0:24:40.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for us, the beetle was kind of a throw-in, \Nlike, that was a one week prototype that we
Dialogue: 0,0:24:40.16,0:24:43.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,threw in. They were like ‘oh no the \Nbeetle’ and we're like, ‘oh yeah,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:43.20,0:24:49.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the beetle, that's right’, and we didn't \Nthink of that at all. It's kind of funny.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:49.36,0:24:53.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MAY: Come on Cody, over here! You drive!
Dialogue: 0,0:24:53.84,0:24:58.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,CODY: What, May, this is a plane \N- it's not a station wagon!
Dialogue: 0,0:24:58.40,0:24:59.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MAY: Just fly!
Dialogue: 0,0:24:59.84,0:25:03.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: This plane section is really \Nmemorable, what can you tell me about it?
Dialogue: 0,0:25:03.84,0:25:08.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: So this was made by Per Stenbeck. \NYou had the storyboards already,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:08.96,0:25:12.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we had the plane in there from like a \Nstory perspective, I think, before there
Dialogue: 0,0:25:12.48,0:25:18.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was a prototype. And I think that this could \Nhave easily just been like a flight section
Dialogue: 0,0:25:18.08,0:25:24.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's that's kind of cool but it took some \Nturns where it went even further than that.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:24.16,0:25:29.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And what happened was that they had this idea \Nof the squirrels that are flying behind you
Dialogue: 0,0:25:29.68,0:25:33.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they would like land on the plane and \Nyou'd have to like shoot them off-- oops.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:33.44,0:25:35.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: Sorry!
Dialogue: 0,0:25:35.36,0:25:40.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: They they were talking about that and \Nthey were like ‘oh what if you could jump out
Dialogue: 0,0:25:40.40,0:25:46.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the turret and like kinda kick them off’ \Nand then somebody said ‘like Street Fighter?’.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:46.08,0:25:51.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,SQUIRREL: Time to say goodbye little doll. \NCan't wait to smash your wooden face!
Dialogue: 0,0:25:51.36,0:25:55.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MAY: I can't wait to kick your furry arse!
Dialogue: 0,0:25:57.56,0:26:03.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: You know it's one of those things where \Nin a lot of game companies those ‘what-ifs’, they
Dialogue: 0,0:26:03.84,0:26:09.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,don't happen. But they do happen here and I think \Nthat's one amazing quality about Hazelight. And I
Dialogue: 0,0:26:09.68,0:26:17.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think kudos to everyone who worked on that because \NI think it turned out to be a great highlight.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:17.56,0:26:21.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ANNOUNCER: KO!
Dialogue: 0,0:26:21.30,0:26:23.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MAY: I’m here!
Dialogue: 0,0:26:25.82,0:26:32.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: This part is like a homage to Brothers: \NA Tale of Two Sons where you have a section kinda
Dialogue: 0,0:26:32.24,0:26:38.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like this but with the brothers, but now in co-op. \NAnd, yeah, it worked excellently. And I think this
Dialogue: 0,0:26:38.96,0:26:45.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whole section is great because you get variation. \NYou know we've gone through three stages of plane
Dialogue: 0,0:26:45.68,0:26:49.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but they all feel different. \NAnd I think that speaks to the,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:49.28,0:26:54.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, like integral to the way we \Nworked was just variety and both from art,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:54.96,0:26:59.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,programming, and design, everyone really \Ngot to add their own flair to everything
Dialogue: 0,0:26:59.60,0:27:05.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and have so much ownership that it \Njust naturally became so different.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:05.84,0:27:12.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,CODY: Oh! Oh!
Dialogue: 0,0:27:12.62,0:27:16.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MAY: That is the last time I'm flying \Nby the seat of your pants.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:16.00,0:27:18.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,CODY: Oh ha-ha, you're real \Ncomedian, you know that?
Dialogue: 0,0:27:18.72,0:27:19.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MAY: Ah, thank you.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:19.82,0:27:21.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARK: And so there we have it.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:21.76,0:27:27.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was fascinating to hear about how the sap and \Nmatch gun evolved from a purely combat-focused
Dialogue: 0,0:27:27.04,0:27:32.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mechanic, to a puzzle-solving tool. And it was \Ngreat to look at the step-by-step process of going
Dialogue: 0,0:27:32.16,0:27:37.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from prototype to polished game mechanic. Plus, \Nthis conversation really highlighted the very
Dialogue: 0,0:27:37.84,0:27:44.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,collaborate nature of level design. And, as such, \NOliver wanted to thank a handful of colleagues -
Dialogue: 0,0:27:44.01,0:27:48.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OLIVER: I would like to thank Robert, Alexander, \Nand Tom, who helped with the video. and I would
Dialogue: 0,0:27:48.08,0:27:53.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like to thank Robert, Per, Henrik, and Filip \Nwho all worked on Tree and made it excellent.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:53.12,0:27:57.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,As usual, a full level playthrough and \Nconversation is available exclusively to
Dialogue: 0,0:27:57.68,0:28:01.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Patreon backers. And if you want \Nto support Game Maker’s Toolkit,
Dialogue: 0,0:28:01.20,0:28:06.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,please check out this quick YouTube ad before \Nwe get to the indie game recommendation.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:10.88,0:28:16.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,My indie game recommendation this time is Umurangi \NGeneration - a low-poly photography game with a
Dialogue: 0,0:28:16.56,0:28:21.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,subversive sense of humour. In each level you're \Ndropped into a 3D environment with a camera
Dialogue: 0,0:28:21.36,0:28:25.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and a list of things to snap. You'll need \Nto find each target and figure out the right
Dialogue: 0,0:28:25.60,0:28:30.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,lens to use and the right spot to stand on. \NIf you agree with me that photography is an
Dialogue: 0,0:28:30.88,0:28:37.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,excellent video game mechanic, play Umurangi \NGeneration. It's out now on PC and Switch.