How to deal with chronic pain | Ajahn Brahm | 04-07-2014

Ajahn Brahm talks about how to deal with the various pains we have in life - especially the big ones.
The Buddha taught there are two parts to the pain which we feel; the physical and the emotional. The physical part we can’t do much about its part of life, but our emotional response we can change and this is the key of how to deal with those chronic pains in life which we really don’t like. Ajahn shows us how develop a positive attitude towards life difficulties.
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Copyright Buddhist Society of Western Australia
www.bswa.org

So there will be a few people
coming in and going out

that's the nature of these things

but for this evening's Dhamma talk
there were some other suggestions

were passed through to me

and the main topic
of the talk this evening is

about a person who asked
how do you deal with chronic pain?

and what sort of techniques of meditation,
of Buddhism, attitudes

can actually help with that.

I wanted to expand that
not just with chronic pain

but also other things
which one doesn't like in life

because I know there is
a real chronic pain

but there's also those people
who are pains in the back side

and they are very chronic

and how do we deal with those as well

because it's the same attitude

which we can deal with
you know really really bad pains

and other emotional difficulties as well.

So it's how to deal with those chronic
things which we just do not like

and it may not even just be
with emotions.

I know one thing which everyone
who comes here has to deal with

every week when i give a talk

is chronic bad jokes,

(laughter)

and the one today to get it out of the way
is about the lady

who actually her house burned down;
and when she rang her Insurance Agent

she said
"just give me a cheque for the value"

They said "we don't do that,
we give replacement"

we'll get you a new house with
all the fittings in it

she said, but can't i get a cheque?

They said no, you get a replacement,

she said ok I suppose I should cancel the
life insurance for my husband then

(laughter from the audience)

she would just get a replacement

ok there we go,
another chronically bad joke

but now we go to the serious part
of actually how to deal with

some of these difficulties we have in life.

and basically it all revolves around
a nice statement of the Buddha

which said that there are
two parts to pain

to unpleasantness,
to difficulty in life.

and He said its the physical part
and the emotional part

the two arrows which go into
a human body

and He said the physical part

is just part of life

you can't do much about that

but the emotional response
we can do everything about

and that is the key to understanding

how to deal with chronic pain

how to deal with things which
we don't like

things which disturb us

ther's two parts to the
pain which we feel.

I remember some person gave me

some research done in neuroscience

They said whenever you feel

a pain, sensation; say in the hand

there are actually two pathways,
goes to different parts of the brain

it seems it almost does

confirm physiologically

something which the Buddha said,

the one which is actually
the ache, the pain,

and the other one which gets the
emotional response going.

It's is amazing just how much we

can change the emotional response

we have to things like pain, to disappointment
to anxiety and to depression.

Even today someone came along

and said how much they get depressed.

And I said, well, depression is part of life

Change your emotional response to it.

Enjoy your depression!

Milk it for everything it's worth.

When you are depressed you don't
have to go to work,

you can sleep in.

People give you food you like;

they want to cheer you up.

It has many advantages, when
you get depressed.

So don't think "Ugh, I'm depressed
I don't like this"

Again, change your attitude towards it.

And then it becomes so positive
you enjoy being depressed so much

because you get so many benefits,

then you are not depressed anymore.

He he he (Ajahn laughs)

Now that's an interesting little
anecdote there

of how we can change things around

by the way we look at these things.

When it comes to physical pain,

things which actually hurt,

again there is a lot of ways we can
deal with that

First of all with our attitude;

because one of the biggest parts of pain,
even chronic pain

is the fear.. what's going
to happen in the future.

"I can't stand this any longer!"

That's one of the reason why

you know in the old movies or the
old books where they say

about torture,

they say "this is going to hurt."

They say "you are gonna wish you
were dead."

Why do they say those things?

It's because that fear of what's going
to happen

that is even worse than the pain.

That's one of the reason why I tell
doctors and nurses

Please when you inject something
into someone

don't say "This is going to hurt".

That makes it hurt much more!

You've all had experiences like that.

I certainly have.

I remember when I was a monk
in Thailand

walking barefoot on alms round and

stepping on a nail - it went about
two inches into my foot!

It's a long way,

a big 4 inch nail, it went
right inside my foot!

It didn't hurt at all!

until somebody said

"Wow that's terrible!!"

and as soon as they said that
it started to hurt.

Have you had experiences like that?

Again it's sometimes what we add on..

what we expect to happen to those
experiences

with those experiences.

That is where lot of the pain comes from.

So I'm sure you have seen all those movies,
not movies but documentaries, on

hypnosis and how we can actually change

the reaction of our mind using hypnosis
to physical feelings.

Somebody told me there was one TV show

where they put a person in a freezing cold
tub of water

but they convinced this guy under hypnosis

that it was nice and warm,

just like a warm hot bath.

You like going in warm hot baths
this time of year?

Really nice, warm and hot is

very very nice.

I don't usually indulge

but I remember one of the
people here

we went to Bhutan together.

When I walked up this mountain

when you came down again,

all your legs were very sore

because really exerting yourself.

I remember just going into the bath,

a good excuse at last,
a monk can have a hot bath.

Lovely just to relax there.

But in this particular case

it was ice cold water.

But they convinced him it was a
warm hot bath

and he was having a wonderful time

in the cold icy water.

And I mention that story because

a few days ago, it was very cold here in Perth.

Did you feel the cold?

Were you just freezing?

In the early morning temperatures,
3 degrees, 2 degrees in Perth?

Hypnotise yourself!

just tell yourself

"Oh! it is so warm today,

Isn't it such a wonderful day today."

And then you don't feel the cold.

True!

A lot of it is in the mind because

we feel the cold, we don't like the cold.

Remember, use your rational mind:

cold is good for you!

People who live in cold climates
live much longer.

Look, when you put the milk in the freezer

it doesn't go off!
(laughter)

You put the cheese, the food
in the freezer

it lasts a long time.

You are just like, same stuff as an apple

So, wonderful! It's nice and cool,

I can add years to my life.

You've been frozen, preserved
(laughs)

So when you think like that

you have a good attitude.

and you find it doesn't hurt.

How much of the life comes
along when

somebody says it's hot today.

You are having a wonderful time
until you see the temperature

It's 40 degrees

and suddenly you feel hot.

So much of life...

You've had those experiences yourself

actually it's when we add what we expect;

when a nail go into your skin

we get afraid it's cold, or it's too hot

It's amazing with the things

we don't like in this world

it is just basically conditioned onto us,

it's what we add with our mind.

Which is why you can do things
under hypnosis

and a person can sit in an ice-cold tank

and have a wonderful time.

So there's another part of our mind

which can not react to that pain,
that discomfort.

And this is what we try and teach
people with chronic pains.

I always remember one of the guys who came

here many years ago.

We've been here about 31 years.

And he had one of these very very
bad chronic pain disorders

something to do with the
degeneration of the spine.

And at the time he was
one of about
8 or 9 people

here in Western Australia

who were legally allowed to take
any medication,

any drug, even prohibited drugs

because the pain was so bad
at the time.

He could take anything.

And he came up and told me that

the hospital in Osborne Park

which was dealing with these
chronic pains sufferers

had devised a scale so they could

tell their friends and relations
roughly what they were feeling.

Because it's very hard to describe pain.

You say "it hurts"

Yes but how much does it hurt?

Hurts a lot;

can you give more details.

So these doctors could take
a brain scan

and they could say

exactly what type of pain it was

and he described to me

The level of pain which he was
experiencing constantly

was exactly the same as an

ordinary person would experience

if they were having their arm
cut off with a chainsaw

And he was experiencing that
constantly.

And that was an objective standard.

They could do the brain scan and say

this is what this guy is actually feeling.

So you can imagine that degree of pain

intensity he was feeling.

And that was one of the reasons why
he came to a place like this:

to learn some Buddhism,
some meditation, some psychology

to deal with that incredible
intense pain

which was there all the time.

I know one thing - he got this

incredibly good meditation
as a result -

because he had to.

There was a great incentive

for him to find a way of
being at peace with the pain.

And he managed to do it.

Because I remember him
coming up to me once

with a big smile on his face

and he said "I've finally done it
Ajahn Brahm, I've finally done it!"

I said "What have you done?"

And I knew he had been meditating

and I sort-of second-guessed it.

Have you got the ECG to be flat,

to be able to meditate
under the hospital conditions,

so your heart stops,
gets very peaceful

He said "Oh yeah I did that
weeks ago"

"Now I got the EEG to be flat."

So he could get so still in meditation

So peaceful

that even the ECG and the EEG flat-lined.

Totally peaceful and still.

That's what he learned

because of the extreme pain.

He had to.. somehow be at
peace with these things.

And he found that was the way

that he was free ...of the pain

It just basically vanishes.

I am just gonna go back a bit
to attitude

because I was saying earlier about
how fear

creates so much pain.

When you think it's gonna hurt,
its gonna hurt,

and it does hurt.

We always remember one of the
Anagarikas you all know;

who's being living in
Bodhinyana Monastery

for a long time.

I always remember the time when I was
walking to the workshop

maybe 20 or 30 years ago.

I was walking to the workshop
in our monastery

and I saw this man coming
in the opposite direction

he had a pair of pliers in his hand.

And in the teeth of the pliers

was one of his teeth, with blood
all over the pliers.

And I thought
"What have you done???"

And he said
"Oh, I just took out one of my teeth"

I thought "how can you do that?"

Even I was impressed.

This guy just took out his own tooth

with a pair of pliers from the
workshop

"What did you do that for?"

He said "just going to a dentist

you know what it's like,

you make an appointment

and they don't have the
right date

and when you make an appointment

you find its cancelled afterwards...

Sometimes the Dentists are...

They charge you a lot of money
as well

unless you are a monk,

because the husband of the
President is a dentist

and does our teeth for free.

Otherwise they get bad Kamma
(laughs)

So anyway ... no, they are very good.

They are very kind and generous.

But sometimes it is a lot of problems

going to the Dentist.

And we're living in Serpentine
which is a long way from Perth

it's a long way to go,

a long distance, a lot of time.

So he said I don't bother going
and making appointments.

I just do it myself.

So he took his own tooth out.

You can see in there why

wouldn't it be wonderful if you
don't have to go to the dentist

and you do it yourself?

There are many things you can
do yourself these days

Do-it-yourself hardware shops.
Do-it-yourself dentists.

But anyway, not to be recommended,
I'll get into big trouble.

But this was an incident where I
asked him

"how did you do that?"

And what he explained was a very

insightful little exercise,

or a little explanation of how you can
deal with pain

by overcoming fear first of all.

and staying much more in this thing we
call the Present Moment

He said to me

"When I decided to pull out my own tooth

instead of going to the dentist

that never hurt.

When I walked to the workshop
that didn't hurt either

When I picked up the pair of pliers

that never hurt.

When I put it on my tooth
that was OK, that didn't hurt

When I wiggled the tooth

that hurt for about 5 seconds,

and then it was out.

And afterwards it didn't hurt that much.

It was only like 2, 3, 4, 5 seconds,
that's all.

But you think about doing that

and it starts hurting even now.

Even though it's not your tooth.
(laughter)

Now you understand where pain comes from.

You think "oh.. that's terrible!"

You see that the anticipation

the fear, the expectation,

that is what hurts most of all.

which is one of the reasons why

that sometimes we can use that
psychology

to not live too much into the future,

to overcome fear,
to be here right now.

And you find much of the pain of life

just vanishes and disappears

because you never have fear anymore.

You never think this is going
to hurt.

You never think like that anymore,

which means if it does hurt

it only hurts for a couple of seconds

and that's it, no more.

So if we understand the fear component
of pain

than we can overcome that

and just live much more
in this present moment

which we keep on training people to do.

Right now you're not in any pain,

no problem at all.

Who knows what the future is
going to be.

And lot of the time the future

is nowhere near to what you
expect it to be.

So you don't need to worry
so much about that pain.

Leave it alone.

Just be here right now and
you'll find pain

is far easier to bear

when you don't anticipate what's

going to happen next.

So often people say

I can't stand it any longer..

it's the longer thing
which is the problem.

As long as you are in this moment
right now

you are already bearing it

you are already being here.
it's not a problem.

It's our tendency to be afraid

because we still live far too much
in the future

never right now.

It doesn't hurt when you decide to
take out your own teeth,

when you walk into the workshop,

or picking up the pliers.

It's only when you put it on..

a couple of seconds, that's all,
and it's out.

Can you do that?

You have to be able to train yourself

in this mental discipline

of meditation to be able to do that.

And if you can do that, it makes life
so much easier

because we always have the aches
and the pains

and stuff which happens.

And it's not just physical pain as well

it's the other things

like we're afraid of the interview,

or we are afraid of going up to
speak to someone we really like

and invite them out.

We are afraid when we go to the
doctors to get the results of our biopsy.

There is so much fear which comes up

in this world, and I can't understand,

sometimes people are even afraid to
talk to me!

I'm a monk, I am not a guard from
Guantanamo Bay.

Sometimes people are, they are afraid;

and sometimes you ask why are they like that?

One of the reasons is again because

that fear comes from the lack of
general kindness.

Because when you are kind to anything

you don't have any fear

That kindness which you have towards
yourself and to other beings

is one of the great antidotes to fear.

I was telling people in the retreat

about the one time when I went to see

one of my favourite monks in Thailand

who died some years ago.
Ajahn Thate.

Going into his presence

he was one of those people

who was so soft and kind, who
emanated that compassion so strongly

I would never felt afraid at all.

I mean - not at all!

Which was a weird experience that

you'd realize that monk could never harm

you in any which way

he would never criticize you,
embarrass you or whatever

in front of others.

If ever you experience such kindness
from another being,

the feeling is that you don't want
to move from their presence,

you feel so relaxed

because in so many other areas of life

you've been hurt and you are
afraid you're going to be hurt again.

It's again this pain thing,
and anticipation

Sometimes you feel so relaxed

in a person's presence, you know

even if you haven't met them before

that you are perfectly safe.

It is one of the reasons why some
animals, whether are dogs, cats

snakes or whatever

they can come up to you and
they know that they are perfectly safe

and you are safe in their presence

which means you will never harm
one another

It's wonderful in monastic life

because we develop that kindness
to a such a degree

that sometimes these dangerous animals
they do come close.

I was telling the people in the retreat

that some years ago, I came so close
to a tiger, a big tiger,

he was only about four feet away from me.

That's absolutely true this huge tiger,

I was only four feet away and I wasn't
all afraid.

Is that amazing?

Is that impressive?

It was in the zoo!
(laughter)

There were big iron bars between me
and the tiger.

That's why I wasn't afraid.
(laughing)

But anyhow.

I've seen all these snakes in Thailand,

I quite like snakes,
I felt very sorry for them

They do amazing things with

the snake stories..

When you have that kindness

you don't feel afraid and other
people don't feel afraid.

When you don't have afraid
there is no fear...

When there is no fear there is
no pain either.

So much of the pain comes

when we tense up
out of fear.

Because the needle is going
into our body for an injection

or because... there is another type of
pain

a pain of some sickness or whatever

inside of us.

So to overcome that fear, which
again projects into the future,

we lose the present moment,

and that is a huge source of pain
in our body, it's mentally added

to the physical feeling.

That's one thing which you can take away,

the fear of how this is going to work out,

whether you can stand it any longer.

Instead of being afraid

then you actually leave it alone,
you let it be.

It's a wonderful thing that

there are times, maybe in each
one of your lives

when you do have severe pain,

such severe pain you don't have a choice.

You know you can't fight it

you know you can't escape from it.

Your back is against the wall.

When those times happen

it's incredible you do remember
some of these teachings

or some of these words of advise to
let things be

not fight anymore, you can't win.

So you let it go.

There's many times in my life
I have done that and

the result is really really incredible.

In the first book I wrote
"Opening the Door of my Heart"

(or your heart or our hearts,
everyone's hearts)

I told the story of very very very bad
tooth ache

which I had in the jungles of Thailand.

I don't know why I am focusing
on teeth this evening [laughter]

but this was a very bad toothache.

And again there was no telephone,
no dentists for miles around,

you're in the jungles.

And there's no way of getting anywhere:

no cars, no transport in the middle of
the jungles,

away from everywhere.

And it was such a poor monastery

there wasn't even any Aspirin
or Paracetamol

in the medicine cabinet,

there was nothing to take at all.

I don't know why it is when you get
these pains,

I know actually why it is now,

When you get these pains they always get
worse at night time.

Why is that?

I think it's because the fear
grows at night time.

And the fear makes that pain
even more intense.

But anyway as it got
very very late

the pain in my jaw was so intense..

I have read afterward, and the

dentist will say, this is true,

some of those pains, infections,
in your teeth can get

so incredibly strong, they can affect the
brain, they can drive you crazy.

And I thought it was really going
to drive me crazy

that was the worst toothache I have
ever had in my life.

Nothing else has matched that

anywhere close.

Intense pain.

And I was trying everything I could

to try and overcome that pain.

First of all my meditation.

But my meditation at the time I tried
to suppress the pain.

Tried to get rid of it
with the force of the will

Trying to move my mind somewhere else

so I couldn't experience that pain.

Never try that!

Never try focusing somewhere else

when there is a pain in
one part of the body,

trying to focus on other part.

You won't be able to succeed

If it really is an intense pain.

The pain will keep compelling you
to watch it.

So I couldn't even meditate,

the pain was just too strong.

We have another type of meditation
which we do

called walking meditation.

We very slowly mindfully walk
backwards and forward on a path.

Eventually I tried that but I had
to give up that

because I was not doing walking
meditation

I noticed I was doing
running meditation

(laughter)

Because whenever you are in
great pain

you are so desperate

you can't do anything slowly;

everything is jerky and fast.

I was running backwards and forwards.

The last thing I tried was doing some
chanting.

Sometimes we have all these superstitions,

if you do some special chanting
miracles can happen.

I never believed that at first

because remember I was a scientist before

theoretical physics at Cambridge University

we don't believe things that easy.

All this rigmarole of
superstitious chanting

I never really believed that at all.

By I tried it anyway.

Which is what you do when
you are desperate

anything you will try.

I tried the chanting and I had to
stop that after a few minutes

because I realized I was shouting at the
top of my voice

and I was afraid I'd wake up
all the other monks

in this monastery

because again when you are desperate

you can't do anything softly

even when you speak, you're shouting.

And I had one of those wonderful
experiences

when your back was against the wall

as Ajahn Chah used to say

"you can't go forward, you can't go back

you can't stay still.

You're really....
everything is just hopeless.

And those experiences,

if you ever have those experiences

you can't go forward,
you can't go back

and you can't stay still.

Those are brilliant moments
in your life.

The opportunities to see things in a
different way

And the only thing I could think of

was those words "just let go"

And I did it.

I let go!

Because I had to; there was no choice.

And as soon as I let go

his is one of the
great experiences of my life

immediately,
not just after second or two

immediately the pain vanished.

It just wasn't there anymore.

And in its place was this incredible
delightful bliss

I was actually happy.

It was such a weird experience that
that could actually happen

You could have intense pain

and then let go, really let go.

And it was just beautiful peace.

Even though it was in
the middle of the night

Couldn't do anything else, except
just meditate for a little while

and then just lay down

not really go to sleep but
have a very light sleep

because you are just too happy.

Woke up in the morning

and then I had a toothache
not that bad

Went to see the dentist afterwards

The amazing thing was
you can take an intense pain

and just by letting it be,
it vanished.

What had happened was

I had taken away the emotional,
mental part of that pain.

the physical part was there but

it was tiny compared to
the emotional.

"I don't want, I can't stand this"

It taught me that what you add

what human beings add onto the

physical feelings of pain

is more than 90 percent of the feeling;

usually 95, 96 percent.

The feeling is only a feeling.

what we add onto it is huge.

And because of that, from that time on

I wasn't really afraid of pain.

Because you always know what you can
do with it

you can't get rid of it.

The easy way is to take a Panadol,
Paracetamol, an aspirin or something.

Or just to stretch or do whatever

you can to get rid of the
physical discomfort.

But in the very end

you can always let things be.

What does it actually mean by
'letting things be'?

What it means by letting things be

is being kind.

I've spent a whole sort of week

trying to teach people

how to let things be,

how to let go

down at the monastery.

But sometimes it's very hard to know

exactly what you have to do.

So a much better way of
describing it is like

"opening the door of your heart
to the pain"

Not trying to get rid of it,

not rejecting it,

but respecting it, it's part of nature

and literally opening the door of
your heart

not trying to get rid of it at all.

Allowing it to be.

Which is what loving kindness is.

When you really have loving kindness,
compassion,

it's not just compassion
to things you like,

it's compassion to things you don't like.

Treating everybody equally.

And every phenomena equally as well.

Cold or heat, whatever you like
whatever you don't like

everything you open your heart to

with respect and kindness.

And if you do that

things which you don't like

they actually change!

It's an amazing thing to do,

The story which is usually the good one

for people with chronic pain,

the old story of the
Monster in Emperor's Palace.

"Get out of here!"

I'm not going to go through
the whole story

because I probably tell it
every other week.

The Monster in the Emperor's palace

"Get out of here, you don't belong"

when this monster came into the palace

and at those few unkind words

the monster grew an inch bigger,

more ugly, more smelly

more offensive.

And when the Emperor came back

he knew exactly what to do.

Instead of saying

"Get out of here! You don't belong!
Why are you sitting in my chair??"

The Emperor said "Welcome!
thank you for coming to visit!

It's very wonderful you are here today!"

And at those few kind words, kind deeds,
kind thoughts

that monster grew an inch smaller.

Less of a problem.

And that is a classic example

of how we deal with even chronic
pain in the body.

Welcome it, instead of trying to say
"Get out of here, you don't belong."

It's part of having a human body

we have pain from time to time

sometimes really chronic,

acute terrible pains.

It's part of life.

What do we do?

"get out of here, you do not belong,
I don't want you"

That makes it bigger, more of a problem.

I tell that story to you because

it will come a time

when the pain-killers don't work.

What are you going to do?

Please remember the story of the monster.

Saying ''get out of here"
makes it far worse.

Bigger, more of a problem

more difficult.

But if you can actually have the courage

and the wisdom
and the compassion

To say "welcome, thank you for coming"

Then you will notice that

that pain would get an inch smaller

less painful

easier to bear.

You are overcoming pain

by realizing it's a negativity
which we add to it is the

worst part of the problem.

The mental part

not the physical part.

And it works every time in which
I had to try that.

When you give it kindness

just like that story of my food poisoning

two or three years ago

I don't have that many stories about pain

because I'm a healthy monk

I know how to look after myself.

But with that physical pain of the

food poisoning

I just gave that food poisoning kindness;

"Thank you for coming to visit me"

even though I was in agony with cramps

in my cave down at Serpentine.

And it took only 20 minutes

for that food poisoning to disappear.

just by giving it kindness.

You can understand what happens
in your body

when you give a part of your body

kindness and compassion,
it relaxes.

Because it relaxes tight parts,
inflammations just opens up..

he body's energies
can go in there

and do its healing.

But when you are really tense

you don't allow stuff to go into that
injured part of the body.

Just learning how to relax,
open up through kindness

allowed healing to happen really
really quickly.

So sometimes, I know what to do

when there's a great pain.

But it's not just physical pain

because it's the emotional pains
as well.

Sometimes you don't feel ...

How many talks have I given
during the last week?

I don't know how many talks

because teaching a retreat,

there's usually two or three talks a day
I have to give.

And ... anybody else sometimes ...
"I don't want to give a talk tonight"

"I don't feel like it,
I just want to go to bed"

"I just want to chill out, put my feet up
and read a book"

"why do I have to keep on.."

But instead of actually getting negative

I know every time I get negative
like that

I am making pain.

So instead just like the physical pain

you have beautiful compassion

to whatever you have to do in life.

You have to go to work in the morning;

"I don't want to go to work!"

You are adding the ...

you've got to go anyway,

so make fun!

Open the door of your heart
to Monday mornings.

(laughter from the audience)

Oh! what joy to go to work on a
Monday morning.

And look ..

there are some images which
I can never get rid of.

I don't actually keep traumatic images,

I keep the opposite,

inspiring images.

I remember visiting the UK years ago,

And as I was visiting the UK

somebody was taking me from
the South London

to Heathrow Airport
in the morning, in the traffic

and the schools were going,
the kids were going to school

And they had what they call the
Lollypop ladies

these are the people who look after
the crossings

Here in Australia they have flags.

Over in the UK they have these big poles

with this circular 'stop' sign.

And I will always remember

this woman maybe 55-60 year old woman

English lady with a lollypop,

she was dancing

she was doing rap with the lollypop

dancing away across the road

and she made so many people happy

that morning including me going

to work on a Monday morning,

me going for a long flight.

That's all you need to do!

Just add a little bit of fun

to being a lollypop girl.

So why can't we do that

on our way to work
on a Monday morning?

Maybe sound your hooter:

but make it musical.

Do we have musical hooters?

Instead of just 'beep, beep, beep'

Can we have it like
Beethoven's Fifth?

Be be be be beeee........
(laughter)

Just to make life a bit
more interesting.

If you haven't seen in Montreal

Rodney sent me a picture of this
the other day.

In Montreal, the Local Government there

have improved the bus stops.

Those of you who catch buses to work
in the morning

sitting down on the chairs in the
bus stop

that's really boring.

In Montreal they have swings

like in the children's playground.

So the people waiting for the bus

would swing backwards and forwards,
backwards and forwards.

It's very innovative and
much more fun

you have to do that.

But can't we make it more fun?

And apparently many people
miss their buses

because they're having too much fun
on the swings

[laughter]
going to work on a Monday morning.

You have to do these things.

So why not open the door of your
heart and give it more fun.

Which is the other thing about pain.

It's hard when you are in pain
to laugh.

But sometimes if you can laugh

it takes away a lot of the pain.

Except, except, I remember

going to one lady, she was
our Secretary here years ago;

a very nice girl, but like many women

eventually she had to have hysterectomy.

And if any of you women have had that
operation,

it's one of the most painful operations.

And it is also because hysterectomy means

you can't have kids anymore

emotionally it's very difficult.

So she gave me a call,

"Ajahn Brahm can you please come
and see me

I am feeling a bit depressed
I just had a hysterectomy".

But she also said

"Ajahn Brahm, please, please, please
no jokes; [laughter]

because if I laugh it really hurts".

And I did try my best, and I did fail
(laughter from the audience)

the poor lady she was like
oooh ahh ooh-that really hurt.

(laughing)

So if you think my jokes are painful

wait till you have a hysterectomy
and hear them.

(laughter)

But it did take away much of her pain,

with a few laughs in the hospital.

That's why a lot of times if
I go to the hospitals

and see people who are sick

I always have a few jokes up my sleeve
to tell them

because that takes away the pain
and the aches.

And that's why
don't go into the hospital and say

"how you are feeling today?"

The most dumbest question
in the world sometimes..

They feel terrible,
that's why they're in hospital,

so tell them a few jokes.

What's a nice hospital joke..?

About the one... I think I told
a few people.

It is from Indonesia or Hong Kong.

It's about that guy who went to
hospital

because he had an accident on a
motorbike

And they had to amputate his leg.

Unfortunately it does happens;
it happens here as well sometimes

they amputate the wrong leg!

Have you been in a hospital...

actually even in these days

high-tech hospitals
like we have in Australia

they actually write on there

"this one"
(Ajahn pointing)

So they know which one they're
supposed to be operating on.

As soon as they realised their mistake

they had to go into the surgery and

get the other one cut off as well.

And of course once he recovered

the first thing he did was
hire a lawyer and sue the hospital.

But he lost his case.

He lost his case, he didn't have
a leg to stand on!

(laughter)

So you tell that in the hospital,

these people having knee reconstruction
surgery or whatever.

They laugh their heads off

so they don't feel so painful anymore.

Now you can see the laughter,

the funny side of pain.

People who have chronic pain,

please don't just give them
more negativity.

When you can have some fun

with your body,

and also fun with life.

you find it doesn't hurt so much.

You can see just how much
of life,

how much of the pain is
what we add on.

and we can actually do something

we can add something else
onto the pain.

Instead of the negativity,

"I don't want to be here"

"why is it me, how long
is this going to last"

You put a bit of fun and kindness

change your attitude and what's
happening in your life,

the whole world changes.

Just a general principle of Buddhism;

you can't change this world,

but you certainly can change the way
you look at it.

You can change your reaction to it.

You can change your perception of it.

And that is all you need to do

to get past these things.

I remember just some of the other things,

of the pain,

one of our monks over in the monastery

he was having this really bad back pain.

and it's terrible, if you are a monk
having bad back pain;

because you are supposed to be
meditating,

Went to see his doctor; and he said

the worst thing you could possibly do

is sit cross-legged and meditate

with a back like that.

Stand up, lay down but don't sit.

And he told them "look, I'm a monk,
meditation is my life,

I can't get rid of that.

But this was a very smart monk,

and because the doctors couldn't help him

he just changed a bit of his attitude.

And interesting what he did,

actually this is a bit off the topic,

maybe it's not off the topic,
it was a chronic pain,

he did a bit of insight

a bit of thinking outside the box

because apparently the pain was
because his spine was degenerated

and was very weak.

So what he did was,

to compensate the weakness
in his spine

by learning how to develop the
muscles either side of his spine.

Starting off just by touching his back,

with his fingers, the muscles on
either side of the spine

to become aware of them

There is so much of our body
we are not aware of at all.

Because we don't need to be.

And by keeping on stroking those
muscles either side of the spine

soon he became aware of the

very existence of those muscles.

In neurology you are making
those connections

in the brain.

So you can feel those muscles.

And then next thing with a
bit of trial and error

once he was aware of those muscles

even without touching them

he could learn how to stretch them

trial and error the awareness could see

how they stretch and how they contract.

Once he could do that,

next stage he could exercise
those muscles

just like you exercise your arms or
exercise your legs through running.

By working those muscles he

exercised them and of course

every time they exercise

they got stronger and stronger
and stronger

until they became so strong

much stronger than my equivalent muscles

because I don't need them
I've got a good back

His muscles became so strong

they compensated for the weakness
in his spine and

now he can meditate without any problem.

Brilliant little way of finding another way

to overcome things like pain.

Use some thinking outside the box

use some different methods.

And a lot of times he was just using
some mindfulness

which not many people have.

If you do have chronic headaches,

why?
Be aware.

Sometimes all the awareness can do

you can see sometimes a chronic headache

gets a tiny bit less.

Why?

Mindfulness is always something which

gives you feedback.

You can see, things change,

the pain is not always the same,

It's chronic, it's always there

but it gets worse, it gets better.

Finding the causes,

And if you can find the causes,

what makes it less painful

then you have some control
over the pain.

You know what makes it worse,

what makes it better,

and you can keep adding that better

better better

until a lot of times the pain gets

very very easy to bear.

One of those things which you will notice

always makes it better is

the kindness, the softness.

Not the fear,

The fear makes it worse.

Fear takes an ordinary pain

and makes it into a huge pain.

Which is one of the reasons the pain
gets worse at night.

Fear.

Or it gets worse when you go and
see the doctor.

So sometimes that fear

once you understand it

can be overcome with kindness

with a bit of laughter as well.

And that means you can have some control

over the pain in your life.

And of course it just doesn't work

with just physical pain

it also works with emotional pain as well.

I don't know what it is but sometimes

even doing the retreats

sometimes people say

they are sitting there hour after hour
meditating

their knees started to hurt

what did they do to overcome the pain
in their knee

they could move, that's one way

the other way they said;

they start to love their knee

"Ah, knees, I love you"

and the pain vanished!

Just the same as that story I told you

playing soccer in the streets of London
as a kid

falling over, going for a tackle and

falling over and scrapping the skin
off my knee which really hurt, it stung,

and my mother would just crouch down
and kiss it better

Just her kindness would take the
pain away.

Every time that happened.

The kindness of a mother

I had my experiences,

would always take pain away.

Which is one of the reasons why

she would come and visit you in hospital

straightway much of the pain would vanish.

If you have someone you love very much

and they love you and you are
very sick in hospital

whether it's emotional pain or
physical pain

just the presence of someone
who is kind and loving

takes a huge amount of pain away!

And if there's no one else
who can do it for you

there is always yourself.

Because I live a lot of time in solitude

because I'm a monk

there's no one else who can visit me
when I'm sick,

I can always visit myself.

And be kind to myself.

When I have that kindness towards myself

much of the aches and pains of life
can vanish very easily.

Physical pains and even emotional pains

"Ah I don't want to do this, I'm tired.
why do I have to do this?"

That type of negativity is very easy to
overcome with a bit of kindness.

Opening the door of your heart

to the situation in which yo're in.

Not being negative,

not trying to get rid of things

but embracing life.

Embracing the difficulties,

doing things you don't like

the heat, the cold, the tiredness

the headaches, tummy aches,

whatever it is
you are experiencing in life.

How about instead of trying to
get rid of it all the time

welcome it.

Like the anger eating demon

be compassionate and then you will find

most of the pain of life would disappear.

Especially the chronic pains.

The pains you think are sometimes
unendurable.

They can be endured very easily

with kindness, being in this moment,
lack of fear.

Just simple teachings which you can
learn here

which is one of the reasons why

in pain clinics they teach
such things like meditation.

They do teach such things like
mindfulness and kindness

because it actually does work.

It takes away some of the worst
pains of life.

So you can be happy and free.

So that was a little talk because someone

asked me "Can you please, (they have
someone with chronic pain)

"Can you please tell me how to deal
with chronic pain"

so that these teachings you have here

can be useful to all types of people

maybe you haven't got chronic pain

but if I carry on talking much longer
maybe you will

(laughter from the audience)

so maybe this is a good time to stop.
Thank you for listening.

Audience: Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!

Very good! So some comments or
questions about

learning how to deal with the
painful stuff of life.

Here we go

This is from overseas

First of all see what countries
we have today

We have USA and Toronto

First of all from the USA

Is there a way to distinguish fear from
being alert to potential risks

or is this just a subtle from of trying
to predict an uncertain future?

Again obviously if there's a bushfire

coming your way,
you have to run.

If there's a tiger running towards you

and you are not a monk you obviously
have to run in the opposite direction.

Some of these are obvious fears

but sometimes we have too much fear.

And sometimes, I think most of the times

we are afraid of things which don't
really provide a risky future for us

we're just afraid of things

which probably
never will happen at all.

Sometimes you can understand

there are some things which you should
be afraid of:

one of the biggest things you should be
afraid of

is fear itself!

In other words it's the fear which
causes all the problems of life

most of the problems of life.

Still remember a little book which I read

by Edgar Allan Poe

He wrote these horror stories

which is why I like to read them.

As a young man

you always like to read weird stuff

especially because I wasn't supposed to.

In one of those books was
The Masque of the Red Death

and it was based on the plagues
which ravaged Europe 100s of years ago

And in this little book he was
envisaging these demons

these demons who were the cause
of these plagues.

And one day these demons,

they met together in a forest
somewhere in Europe

and the demon from Paris said

'yeah I killed now a thousand people'

And the one from Berlin said
'I killed fifteen hundred'

The one from London
'I killed two thousand'

And the one from Brussels said

'I killed only two hundred and
fear killed two thousand'

I remember reading that great insight
of this author

The plague kills only a small number,

the fear kills more people than that.

Even I remember quoting that
during the SARS crisis

or during the bird flu crisis

because many people sitting amongst you
have come from Hong Kong

(laughter)

They are sitting right in here.

And maybe they have bird flu!
(laughter)

And they are going to carry it into the
Buddhist community

and start the epidemic in Perth!

Oh my goodness!

Do you feel a bit hot this evening?
(laughter)

You can see fear kills more people than
the disease itself.

And that's actually very true.

If you don't think that fear can kill

there is that story which I think I told
a few weeks ago

of a guy in jail in England over
100 years ago

he was about to be executed by hanging

And some psychologists, some scientists

had permission to do this really gross
experiment on him.

They went to his cell the night before
his execution

and told him the law had been changed

he still had to die tomorrow morning

but this time not by hanging

he would have his throat cut.

And they let this poor man think about
that all night.

In the morning at dawn as happens
with executions

they came for him

tied his hands securely behind his back

put a blindfold over his eyes

led him to the place of execution

A priest gave him his last rites or
whatever they did for him

and then they took a knife and
they cut his throat

and he fell down and died.

That's what he thought.

He had his eyes blindfolded.

What had really happened

it was just the scientists and the
prison governor

or whoever it was, the superintendent

took him to the wash rooms

and one of them pretended to be the priest

And when they finished reading out
the sentence

they took a knife which was so blunt

you couldn't even cut butter with it

and they drew it across his throat.

He felt the steel on his throat.

At the same time the other scientist

just turned on a tap in the wash room,

and he heard liquid coming out

and he felt the steel on his throat

and he fell down and died

not a scratch on him.

A very famous psychology experiment.

If you believe you are going to die
you do die.

That is the power of belief.

That is the power of fear.

That Edgar Allan Poe is very wise

fear kills as many people

probably more than disease itself.

So that is why

fear is one of the biggest risks.

Before when I was training to be a
school teacher

we were teaching science

and it was only a matter of time
before some kid

playing in the lab would pour

concentrated acid over himself

or they put in some metal objects

into the plugs and electrocute themselves

and we were never taught first-aid

So we insisted to get a GP in to
teach us first-aid.

And they got this old GP before
he was about to retire

really really wise old man

who just cut to the chase.

He said 'look if ever you see

any accident in this school or anyone

someone with their leg almost cut off,
blood everywhere

lie to them.

Say ''that's nothing you will be OK''.

Even if you think they are going to die,
lie.

He said because the shock kills more
people than the injury itself.

And if you tell them
"Oh that looks terrible!"

you could kill them with words like that.

I don't know whether GPs and doctors
here would agree with that.

But I always remember that
piece of advice

That always makes a lot of sense to me.

It's the fear which causes that reaction

which could just tip you over the edge
into death.

So always lie to a person

to say "ah it's not that bad, you will be
OK, you've got two legs, you can miss one!

(laughter)

Don't go that far...
I think you got the point.

So I think there is too much fear around.

So much fear that it kills us.

What we should really fear..

which is only a small amount of stuff

that gets overwhelmed.

Anyway the next question

"People who are depressed, don't accept it

Also there is a social stigma
attached to it,

it gets classified as a mental illness

depression is something I have
struggled with off and on.

I started listening to Dhamma Talks
(that's Buddhist Talks) to fix my brain

but the first step is to realise and
accept that someone is depressed".

How can I help someone
who I know is depressed,

how do I tell her that she is?"

Now first of all, they say it gets

sigmatized and classified as
a mental illness

and people who are mentally ill

they think they are same as being
psychotic,

it's a one-size-fits-all type of
designation.

And there is no person who is depressed.

There are people who suffer bouts
of depression.

But they are not a depressed person.

As I keep on saying

There is no person who is mentally ill

There's people who have episodes of
mental illness.

The old story, there is no prisoners,
sorry, there are no criminals,

there are people who do crimes.

There is no schizophrenics,

it's a person who suffers episodes
of schizophrenia.

Straight away when you
change the language

you avoid the stigmatization.

If you say someone is psychotic
it means that's all they are

all the time.

If you say someone is a criminal

you think that's all they are

there is nothing to them except

the crime which defines their life

as far as yo're concerned.

So there's no such thing as a
person who is mentally ill,

it is a person who suffers

bouts of mental illness.

So as soon as you say

you are a person... you are much
bigger than that depression.

You are not a depressed person

you are a person who happens
right at the moment

be experiencing depression.

So that's where you can take away

lot of the social stigma.

It's a temporary thing.

it's impermanent;

you are not always like that.

And as mentioned that
great story, that great anecdote,

where the Professor of Schizophrenia
in Singapore, some years ago

whom I met and I asked him
"how does he treat Schizophrenia"

He said "just as you've been teaching me
I do not treat Schizophrenia"

in a mental health institute in Singapore.

He said I treat the other part of the
patient, which is not schizophrenic.

And I really really admire that guy!

You really understood, you've got it

you don't just treat depression

you treat the other part of the person
which is not depressed.

There is more to them than depression.

You do get your bad days and good days

What about treating the other good days.

When you encourage that

it grows and grows,
it squashes out the depression.

So realizing and accepting
someone is depressed

yeah you go through bouts of depression

but never think you are a
depressed person.

And always remember the other times

when you are not depressed.

Don't just focus on the two bad bricks
in the wall,

the other 998 bricks and that's
incredibly important.

And the other thing about depression,
it's one of those

classic anger eating monsters
I was talking about

"get out of here, you don't belong"

that feeds the depression.

Makes it worse, you get deeper
into that pit of darkness

which is one of the reasons

when you don't feed the monster,

You don't say 'get out of here'

But 'Welcome depression.
Thank you for visiting me.'

that actually overcomes it.

It stops feeding it

and it just fades away.

Don't get depressed about being
depressed.

It's a hard thing to do but you can

change attitudes, it's not that hard to do

Sorry, I said it's hard to do and
then not hard to do.

It can be done.

You see people who do it.

And that's one of the great antidotes
to depression

Welcome depression
Enjoy your depression

Because once you start enjoying it,
it vanishes.

You are using a very very smart
sneaky technique

to get around the back of depression

and overcome it.

So that's one way you can do that.

But it is also important to accept
that you are feeling bad,

you are feeling depressed.

Truth is important
but more than even truth

it's actually seeing a bigger picture

It's only bouts of depression

but not a depressed person.

You are a person, that has moments
of depression.

That is more accurate to the truth.

Okay, any other questions from the
audience here?

Yes, over there.

Question: I was thinking some people
when they are depressed

usually they feel lethargic,
they don't do things

and things like that, but

sometimes people could be just lazy
and not do things

so how a depressed person

I mean people who frequently
get depressed

how that person can identify

if he or she is depressed or just lazy?

(Ajahn laughs)

What's the difference between
being depressed and being lazy? Not much

(laughter)

But one good way of overcoming
depression

is that thing I was mentioning earlier
on to the people at the retreat

seasonal affective disorder (SAD).

And coming in to Nollamara this afternoon

it was raining, it was dark

it just reminded me so much of London
in December, January, February.

which is when you get Seasonal Affective
Disorders (SAD).

People get depressed in London
at that time of the year.

And no wonder why,

because there's no life there

everything is grey and dull.

And the old joke

People in London they wear grey clothes,

grey suits, grey hats

all the walls are grey

there is no colour in the sky,
it's all grey,

the rain is grey, drizzle,

And everything is so grey

even the tea the English drink.

Earl Grey Tea (laughter)

No wonder they get depressed.

And at that time of the year

the light is so dull as well because

it is the Northern Hemisphere

the days are so short.

And the simple way of overcoming

that type of depression called SAD
seasonal affective disorder

is to take those people into a
brightly lit room.

You just turn the lights up

And you make them wear Hawaiian
Dresses, really bright

over the top

and you play them very loud
bright music.

And it's so stimulating

that the seasonal affective disorder
disappears.

Everyone is happy.

Simple, stimulating the senses
when you are depressed.

So if someone is in bed
and they are depressed

play some Jimmy Hendricks

Play them something which is very
loud and very bright

turn up the lights and

go in there, into their room,

with this brightly coloured skirt
or something.

Just that amount of encouragement

that amount of stimulation

actually overcomes a lot of depression.

That is one of the reasons why
on a retreat

people come on these retreats,

they have to get up really
early in the morning

and it's very depressing when they
first get up in the morning

which is why I have to entertain them

when I keep on doing these three
great Sadhus

Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu!

which means no one gets
depressed in the morning.

You can see how you can liven
people up

When you are depressed that's

probably what you need to do.

If you've got a friend who is depressed,

who can't get up in the morning,

just hire a band

get a few clowns from the circus
to come in

and do the juggling acts
by their bedside

Just make them laugh, stimulate them

and soon they wake up.

Sometimes we can be so dull;

and we just allow that dullness to
get into our heads

rather than putting energy and
fun into your life.

Like I try and do on these
Friday Nights Talks.

Sometimes I succeed,
sometimes I don't,

but you know that I do try.

So there we go.

That's why you can come to these talks

and you never get depressed.

except for today.

Because today you get depressed;

this is the last talk
for another three months

Oh......

he he he (Ajahn laughs)

Okay, thank you all,

and thank you for those questions.

Now another question.
Okay go on.

Question: It is about Euthanasia

Euthanasia is not the problem
it's used all over the world.

(from the audience) I understand that
(laughter)

(Ajahn) That's an old joke

(from the audience)
It is embracing and welcoming death.

Ajahn: Yeah

(audience) I heard this morning on the
radio someone who is around 40 something years old

imported the drugs .. and killed himself.

(Ajahn).. Euthanasia ... as Buddhism is
concerned that is your choice.

You are the owner of your Kamma

No one should make that choice for you

So I make a big distinction between

euthanasia where someone else
administers that drug

or injects you, which happens a lot
in hospitals,

or voluntary euthanasia.

And voluntary euthanasia: what is your
clear choice?

But to be a clear choice, it has to be made
sure that choice has no coercion at all

you are not doing it because you are
crazy or depressed or in a bad mood

no coercion from family and friends.

Has to be really a free choice.

There is something in Buddhism

that you are in control of your life,

and your destiny.

It is your Karma.

I may not agree
that's a wise thing to do,

but it has to be your choice,

not other people's choice.

And many many times

when you look at people,

The time when I was
really convinced

that voluntary euthanasia would be
a moral thing to do in some cases

was when I went to the dementia ward
to see my mother.

My mother was fine, but I met a
couple of people in the dementia ward,

they were literally waking up
every second.

And they were in a place
they could not recognize;

with people they didn't know
every second of their lives.

Because they couldn't remember.

And they were terrified.

I have done this sometimes,

I've woken up because I go
traveling around overseas

Wake up in a hotel or in
somebody's house

or in a temple somewhere

When I first wake up:
"where the hell am I?"

Because I travel a lot.

That is quite scary.

Of course I've got my memory..

Öh yes I'm in Frankfurt today..

you remember pretty quickly
so you are fine.

But I know what that must be like

every moment of your life

you are waking up and you don't know
where you are, or who you are with.

No sense of safety at all.

Total terror, continuously.

When I saw two people having
that symptom of total terror

you wouldn't allow that even in
Guantanamo Bay

they let you go and rest for a while
between being tortured or whatever.

But here it was constant.

That type of pain I wouldn't wish
on anybody, that is really immoral.

So sometimes, with some of those
experiences, you think that

if a person, they know that's where
they are going to end up

decides voluntary euthanasia,
you cannot fault them at all.

So I'm a supporter of that Bill,
obviously with the safeguards.

So it has to be voluntary

with no coercion at all.

But I'm a supporter of that.

People have argued with me

but I say it has to be a personal choice.

Obviously if you are depressed

you are not making a good choice.

You are not really making a clear
reasonable choice.

But if there's no depression there,

you are very clear about
what you want to do

and why you want to do it,

I'd support that.

Audience: Ajahn Brahm, can I please
ask another question?

Yeah, go on..

Sri Lankan Buddhist parents often
scare their kids when they don't

observe five precepts, they scare them
by saying

you know if you tell a lie you'll go to hell,
things like that..

Did Buddha actually spoke about
hell and heaven?

Yes the Buddha did talk about
hell or heaven

but just telling one lie is not enough to
have great consequences

especially if you are a young kid.

You've got to measure a whole life.

As I keep on saying: to go to
university

you have to answer many many questions

in many exams.

If you get one question wrong

when you do your university
entrance examination

that does not mean you
don't go to university.

Maybe a hundred questions,

you do one wrong, 99 out of a 100,

you would probably go to Harvard
or somewhere.

So one question wrong is not
the problem,

it's when the kid continually lies

or when they continually take drugs,

that's the problem.

So just one or two mistakes

when you put that in the context of
their whole life

is not that bad.

So your kids they will experiment,
they will make mistakes,

they will do wrong things
as their parents do.

So please don't just scare the hell
out of them by saying

you are going to go to hell for that.

That's just totally wrong.

And also please don't
rule your kids through fear.

I mentioned that last week.

Inspire them.

Give them some confidence.

And also to make sure that
they are so confident

that they can make their own decisions
rather than following their peers.

That's the problem with many people.

I mentioned that last week, I'm
reinforcing it this week.

Because some families, they make
decisions for their children

basically forcing them to what they
should do,

when they leave their parents

then they follow their peers; the strong
people in their peer group.

And those strong people in the peer
group make them do stupid things.

It goes from parental pressure
to peer pressure.

Rather than getting the kids strong
enough to understand

what's right and wrong for themselves,

and strong enough to resist

the other people
in their age group who say

"let's go to the nightclub and get drunk"

"Let's do some binge drinking"

"Let's do some methamphetamines"

They are strong enough to say "no"

Because the parents have given them
that degree of independence

to make choices.

If you don't reinforce that

You'll find yeah you tell your children

to do what you tell them to do
when they are at home

and then they do what their peers

tell them to do when they are
out on the street.

Some of those peers cannot be trusted.

Audience: Ajahn Brahm, Buddhism sometimes really confuses me

because you talk about hell and heaven

and also in real life you can see
in this world

you can see hell and heaven

(Ajahn: Indeed, yes)

so it is confusing because

you can get punished for your sins
whatever

in this real life as well

and why do you need another hell?

Ajahn: First of all, you don't get
punished for your sins

they say you get punished by your sins.

Just doing a bad thing, really hurts you.

So it's not that type of idea of
punishment

it's just doing stuff that really hurts,

you feel really bad about it.

But this is a hell and heaven
in this life..

yeah you can actually see that

But it is also another question

totally about what happens after you die

and that stream of consciousness

going on after you die.

That has been proven,

if anyone is scientific,
has got their scientific integrity,

and actually bothers to
look at the evidence

and bothers to consider it with a
rational mind

reincarnation or rebirth
is actually a fact.

The evidence is compelling,
there's too much evidence out there

to not really consider it and

not come to the obvious conclusion

whether you're a Buddhist or not

that when you die you continue on

and then afterwards once we
establish reincarnation or rebirth

then where you get reborn

and of course yeah there will be

lower realms. higher realms

and there is evidence for that too.

I've been around a long time
I don't believe in these things easily

only when it's really strong evidence

things you see, things you know happen

There are things like
heavens and hells after you die.

And if you don't believe me

when you die you can come back
and tell me off

(laughter from the audience)

I better stop now because

if you want to come up please
come up afterwards

and we can chat.

We are already quite late.

and I know we've got people from
Hong Kong and Singapore

they've got to go back to Jhana Grove,
it's a long journey.

So please if you want to come up
and take the question further

please you're most welcome

but now we're just going to pay respects
to Buddha Dharma and Sangha

and then we can finish off the formal part
of this evening

Araham samma-sambuddho bhagava
Buddham bhagavantam abhivademi.

Svakkhato bhagavata dhammo
Dhammam namassami.

Supatipanno bhagavato savakasangho
sangham namami.

Very good