-
(piano music)
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- Yes, I could share another
story of a lay person
-
that I guided also some years
ago in a different country.
-
And it was this married woman who was
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in that country she was a foreigner.
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And she was going through,
-
she was this very, very spiritual,
-
very devoted person,
-
also very committed to her faith.
-
She had many times she had difficult,
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or she just suffered from deep,
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let's say, feelings of
insecurity and anxiety
-
that somehow had to do
with this whole fact
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of being a foreigner
in that country and of,
-
yeah, having had not few experiences of
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not being fully accepted
or integrated or whatever.
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And I remember that she would
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many times blame herself
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for those feelings maybe of insecurity,
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sometimes of anger, sometimes of anxiety
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as something that she was lacking faith
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and she was lacking hope,
-
and she should rely more on the Lord,
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and if she did, she would
not have all these feelings
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and all these emotions or all
this anger sometimes, right?
-
And there comes what I
would like to refer also
-
and connected with what
Father Shawn said before.
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The sense of guilt, I think there,
-
it's such an important area,
-
what I have seen in my own
story and accompanying others,
-
that many times there is a sense of guilt
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that is put on the level of sin and virtue
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or is given a moral weight
where it actually doesn't.
-
And that's what with
this particular woman,
-
as we talked through the situations
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where she would have these
emotions of anger or of anxiety,
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and they would be connected
with certain situations
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in which she experienced fear,
-
in which she experienced a
sense of not being respected,
-
and then would come the
moral conscience, right?
-
You're a Christian,
-
you should not have feelings of hatred,
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and you should not.
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To understand that in
the emotions that arise,
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there is no moral weight.
-
Where the moral conscience comes in is
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what do I do with these emotions?
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Do I nourish them?
-
- Yeah.
- Do I give myself
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reason to condemn the other person?
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But in the fact of
experiencing all of that,
-
there is no moral guilt.
-
And that I think is so important,
-
and it illustrates, I think, again,
-
how important those human sciences are
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to understand how, yeah,
how our emotions work,
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how a psychological guilt can come in
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which doesn't have a moral weight
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and that has to be distinguished.
-
And there I have experienced or seen
-
how it brings an interior
freedom, an interior relief,
-
which actually has to do with
the way that we envision God.
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Because if I see God that reproaches me
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for having these emotions of anger
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or of having this nervousness or whatever,
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it's very different than
when I can see a God
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that actually embraces
me in all these emotions,
-
who understands me.
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As Father Shawn was saying, right?
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He is a God who has embraced our humanity,
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who has embraced also the
experience of rejection,
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of not being understood.
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So there is a very deep connection
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in how we interpret our
own interior emotions,
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also the image of God that we have
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and how we let God into
that interior world
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as a redeemer that embraces
me or as a hard judge.
-
And sometimes I see that
there is a transition
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that needs to happen from
that image of a judge
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that actually increases
that sense of guilt,
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or that understanding redeemer
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that is with me, that walks with me,
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that helps me to see the truth,
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the truth that I am wounded,
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the truth that there is anger in me,
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but
- Yeah.
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- But he's there to help me through it.
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- And if I could maybe make
one comment about that.
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It strikes me how much our
own experience of humanity
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often becomes the image we have of God.
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We put that image on him,
right, not realizing it.
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That I'm feeling rejected
or I'm feeling guilty,
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so then God is somebody who abandons me
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or God is somebody who is angry with me.
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Very powerful, very powerful.
-
- Yes, exactly.
-
- So Steve, one of the
things we have noticed
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increasing over the last I'd say 10 years
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has been an increase in narcissism.
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And not just within the legion,
-
but I've been watching articles
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that are talking about
the church in general
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which is society in general,
-
that more and more of our young people
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are developing narcissistic tendencies
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that then create blind spots
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for being able to read the
feelings of other people,
-
to actually care about the
feelings of other people,
-
to recognize one's own weaknesses
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and to be able to admit
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one's own weaknesses and limitations.
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And I think couple that with
possibly the male psychology
-
and the preparation for the priesthood,
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sometimes there's a pressure
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that thinks you can make mistakes,
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you have to be always the one leading,
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the one charging the hill,
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and the one that is not without mistakes.
-
And so one of the things
I think we're learning,
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or I've been learning at least,
-
to tell our younger priests
when they're coming in is
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don't be afraid to make mistakes.
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In fact give yourself the
freedom to make mistakes,
-
because if you don't have that freedom,
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you're gonna create a stress
within yourself that over time,
-
trauma can come in a one-time experience,
-
it can come in a series
of little experiences,
-
but something that's sustained,
-
a sustained pressure over time
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can actually become a traumatic experience
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that actually produces
-
results that a person really doesn't want
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and can become a disorder
if they're not careful,
-
or narcissistic disorder.
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So that incapacity to actually recognize
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or that willingness to say, okay,
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actually I have limitations
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and I do make mistakes,
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and I'm okay with my mistakes
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because they don't define me,
-
that's hard.
-
Okay, and it's hard when you know
-
you're going to be
oftentimes in the limelight
-
or you're gonna be in front of people
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or people look to you for guidance.
-
And it's been one of the areas
-
where I see that it's been a challenge
-
where at times we will
have individuals with much,
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that actually have developed
narcissistic disorders.
-
And it makes it very difficult
for them to work in team,
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to work with others,
-
okay, because they actually
end up hurting people,
-
running people over.
-
And even when you bring
things to their attention,
-
it's always somebody else's fault.
-
It's always
(Stephen laughing)
-
some other reason as to why--
-
- [Stephen] Yeah.
-
- This exists but it's not them.
-
And so to be able to confront
that and to be able to,
-
one of the things that has helped
-
is the capacity to have group therapy.
-
That has actually been one of
the areas that in real-time
-
being able to have assessments
of input from others
-
when at times they have the blind spots
-
that are not allowing for them to see.
-
And also just the growth and the humility
-
that just says it's okay.
-
I don't always have to
have the right answer.
-
I can make mistakes.
-
And I think one of the things,
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that there's a great freedom in that,
-
'cause our Lord is not limited
by our limitations, okay.
-
It's very important
that we understand that.
-
And something that Lorli said very earlier
-
that is extremely important is
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my weaknesses, not even
my sins, define me.
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They don't.
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My relationship with God defines me.
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So on the other end of the spectrum,
-
not even my gifts and
my talents define me.
-
And very often we can seek our identity
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in the things we do well.
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We can try and hide the weaknesses
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so that others don't see them,
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and we can sometimes try
and hide them from ourselves
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as a cause of shame
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or just exposing all my limitations.
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But the reality is,
-
going back to your very first
question at the beginning,
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it's the relationship
with God that defines me
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and precisely the way he sees
me and the way he loves me.
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And from there it becomes a freedom.
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When you're dealing with a disorder
-
like a narcissistic
disorder as an example,
-
that's a process of being
able to get to that freedom
-
because the capacity to
control the environment,
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to control circumstances, situations
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so nothing gets out of my control
-
and that I don't have to worry about
-
people seeing my
weaknesses or limitations,
-
that creates its own stress,
-
where there's the freedom that comes from
-
being able to say it's
okay to have the weaknesses
-
and God's gonna work with them.
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So we found that both a group therapy
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and an ongoing therapy
can help an individual
-
both recognize those, be okay with those,
-
and open the space for
a deeper spiritual life.
-
- As you're talking,
that's a good illustration,
-
I'm just reflecting.
-
Some of us God has given brother priests
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or sister consecrated to be in a group,
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in a family setting
where we are who we are
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and we learn to be accepted
and we make our mistakes.
-
And I was reflecting that some of us
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he gives families and wives
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to be that person who says into your ear,
-
like the old Roman generals,
-
they used to get a parade in their chariot
-
when they came back from their victory,
-
and they were always assigned
-
some older wizened male servant
-
would be right there on the
chariot in their ear saying,
-
you're just a man, you're not a god.
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Don't forget you're not.
-
We need that.
-
We need somebody reminding us
-
of our mortality and our limitations.
-
And I think often living
in some community,
-
whatever that community
is that we're called to,
-
is part of God's plan for that I think,
-
so much does he love us, right?
-
- Amen, amen.
- Yeah, yeah.
-
- There's a healing attribute
-
to doing dishes on a frequent basis.
-
(Stephen and Lorli laughing)
-
- Indeed, indeed.
-
So maybe as a closing direction
-
for this beautiful interview
-
that we've been having here,
-
sharing very freely for our students
-
as they're on their pathway
-
to becoming spiritual directors themselves
-
or honing their own skills,
-
if you could go back in time
-
to say 20 years ago to your younger self,
-
and maybe just in 30 seconds, right,
-
what advice might you
give your younger self
-
around this topic of the
value of the human sciences
-
for spiritual direction?
-
Lorli, would you like to go first?
-
- Okay, I can go first, yeah.
-
Two things.
-
One, I think,
-
and yeah the most important
I think I would tell myself
-
to make sure I don't rush
into judgments too fast.
-
To remember that every
person is a mystery.
-
And what I see from the person now,
-
from what she has expressed so far,
-
I see a little part.
-
And sometimes we can be very fast in,
-
let's say, making a diagnosis or
-
interpreting what is happening.
-
And of course you have
to try and interpret,
-
but always knowing there is a lot
-
which I don't know about the person.
-
And there can be so many
circumstantial elements also
-
that influence the person right now,
-
and the person is complex, right?
-
So that on one hand, to give yourself time
-
to really get to know the person,
-
and yeah, not to rush judgments
-
that are too categorical
-
or too simplistic actually.
-
- Yeah.
-
Also a challenge, yes.
- Yes.
-
- Very good.
-
- And the second one would actually be
-
an invitation not to give myself
-
too much importance as a guide.
-
The guide of each person is God.
-
And it's,
-
yeah, to make sure I don't give myself
-
an importance or a role
in the life of the guidee
-
that really I don't have
as a spiritual guide.
-
I think those two things are
the ones that come to mind.
-
- Very good, thank you,
thank you very much.
-
Father Shawn.
-
- Well, I have to agree with
Lorli on that one in fact.
-
(Stephen and Lorli laughing)
-
Just those exact two.
-
One is not jumping to the conclusions.
-
And again I think even
coming into a situation
-
where like, well, clearly
they're doing this
-
and this is the reason and it's not,
-
or having especially in the confessional
-
when I get to hear circumstances at times
-
what led to a person to
actually have an abortion,
-
and it's not cut and dry,
-
what's led individuals to
practice birth control,
-
and realize, okay, there
is more to the situation
-
than just a black and white answer.
-
But the same will apply to
the psychological at times
-
because there's been something
that's happened in the past,
-
it's producing things now
-
that the person actually
doesn't have full control over.
-
And it's extremely important
-
first to listen and listen to the story
-
as opposed to just jump
to the conclusions.
-
And second, I can't agree with Lorli more
-
than just from my own mistakes of actually
-
thinking too much depended on myself
-
or trying to do too much
of the whole package
-
and realizing that's not,
-
one, that's not what our Lord is asking,
-
two, our Lord, I think,
gives us limitations
-
so we learn how to work in team,
-
including the capacity to let others help.
-
I'm not the sole guide of an individual.
-
I just happened to play a part,
-
a small part really,
-
on the spiritual side,
-
but because of the complexity
-
in the totality of the person,
-
there are too many angles
to that person that need
-
help from all those different angles.
-
And I think the last thing,
I would add one, third one,
-
and that is there is no circumstance
-
that God can't get into.
-
There is no brokenness
that is beyond his remedy
-
to use it both for the good of the person
-
and into his glory.
-
And I think that's extremely important
-
that even in the worst of scenarios,
-
and I've seen a few that
have been very difficult,
-
that God is present,
-
and that God, even in that brokenness,
-
is doing something great
in helping the person
-
to see that and to trust that
-
despite what seems to be
like a very dark situation
-
and that with very few options of hope.
-
- Wow.
-
- Yes.
-
- Makes a lot of sense.
-
Thank you so much for sharing this wisdom
-
with our future spiritual directors.
-
They're discerning and
preparing for this calling
-
of helping in that little
way that you talk about
-
to help other souls on their
journey get closer to God.
-
So thank you so much.
-
- Thank you, Steve.
-
- Thank you, Steve.
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(piano music)