(piano music)
- Yes, I could share another story of a lay person
that I guided also some years ago in a different country.
And it was this married woman who was
in that country she was a foreigner.
And she was going through,
she was this very, very spiritual,
very devoted person,
also very committed to her faith.
She had many times she had difficult,
or she just suffered from deep,
let's say, feelings of insecurity and anxiety
that somehow had to do with this whole fact
of being a foreigner in that country and of,
yeah, having had not few experiences of
not being fully accepted or integrated or whatever.
And I remember that she would
many times blame herself
for those feelings maybe of insecurity,
sometimes of anger, sometimes of anxiety
as something that she was lacking faith
and she was lacking hope,
and she should rely more on the Lord,
and if she did, she would not have all these feelings
and all these emotions or all this anger sometimes, right?
And there comes what I would like to refer also
and connected with what Father Shawn said before.
The sense of guilt, I think there,
it's such an important area,
what I have seen in my own story and accompanying others,
that many times there is a sense of guilt
that is put on the level of sin and virtue
or is given a moral weight where it actually doesn't.
And that's what with this particular woman,
as we talked through the situations
where she would have these emotions of anger or of anxiety,
and they would be connected with certain situations
in which she experienced fear,
in which she experienced a sense of not being respected,
and then would come the moral conscience, right?
You're a Christian,
you should not have feelings of hatred,
and you should not.
To understand that in the emotions that arise,
there is no moral weight.
Where the moral conscience comes in is
what do I do with these emotions?
Do I nourish them?
- Yeah. - Do I give myself
reason to condemn the other person?
But in the fact of experiencing all of that,
there is no moral guilt.
And that I think is so important,
and it illustrates, I think, again,
how important those human sciences are
to understand how, yeah, how our emotions work,
how a psychological guilt can come in
which doesn't have a moral weight
and that has to be distinguished.
And there I have experienced or seen
how it brings an interior freedom, an interior relief,
which actually has to do with the way that we envision God.
Because if I see God that reproaches me
for having these emotions of anger
or of having this nervousness or whatever,
it's very different than when I can see a God
that actually embraces me in all these emotions,
who understands me.
As Father Shawn was saying, right?
He is a God who has embraced our humanity,
who has embraced also the experience of rejection,
of not being understood.
So there is a very deep connection
in how we interpret our own interior emotions,
also the image of God that we have
and how we let God into that interior world
as a redeemer that embraces me or as a hard judge.
And sometimes I see that there is a transition
that needs to happen from that image of a judge
that actually increases that sense of guilt,
or that understanding redeemer
that is with me, that walks with me,
that helps me to see the truth,
the truth that I am wounded,
the truth that there is anger in me,
but - Yeah.
- But he's there to help me through it.
- And if I could maybe make one comment about that.
It strikes me how much our own experience of humanity
often becomes the image we have of God.
We put that image on him, right, not realizing it.
That I'm feeling rejected or I'm feeling guilty,
so then God is somebody who abandons me
or God is somebody who is angry with me.
Very powerful, very powerful.
- Yes, exactly.
- So Steve, one of the things we have noticed
increasing over the last I'd say 10 years
has been an increase in narcissism.
And not just within the legion,
but I've been watching articles
that are talking about the church in general
which is society in general,
that more and more of our young people
are developing narcissistic tendencies
that then create blind spots
for being able to read the feelings of other people,
to actually care about the feelings of other people,
to recognize one's own weaknesses
and to be able to admit
one's own weaknesses and limitations.
And I think couple that with possibly the male psychology
and the preparation for the priesthood,
sometimes there's a pressure
that thinks you can make mistakes,
you have to be always the one leading,
the one charging the hill,
and the one that is not without mistakes.
And so one of the things I think we're learning,
or I've been learning at least,
to tell our younger priests when they're coming in is
don't be afraid to make mistakes.
In fact give yourself the freedom to make mistakes,
because if you don't have that freedom,
you're gonna create a stress within yourself that over time,
trauma can come in a one-time experience,
it can come in a series of little experiences,
but something that's sustained,
a sustained pressure over time
can actually become a traumatic experience
that actually produces
results that a person really doesn't want
and can become a disorder if they're not careful,
or narcissistic disorder.
So that incapacity to actually recognize
or that willingness to say, okay,
actually I have limitations
and I do make mistakes,
and I'm okay with my mistakes
because they don't define me,
that's hard.
Okay, and it's hard when you know
you're going to be oftentimes in the limelight
or you're gonna be in front of people
or people look to you for guidance.
And it's been one of the areas
where I see that it's been a challenge
where at times we will have individuals with much,
that actually have developed narcissistic disorders.
And it makes it very difficult for them to work in team,
to work with others,
okay, because they actually end up hurting people,
running people over.
And even when you bring things to their attention,
it's always somebody else's fault.
It's always (Stephen laughing)
some other reason as to why--
- [Stephen] Yeah.
- This exists but it's not them.
And so to be able to confront that and to be able to,
one of the things that has helped
is the capacity to have group therapy.
That has actually been one of the areas that in real-time
being able to have assessments of input from others
when at times they have the blind spots
that are not allowing for them to see.
And also just the growth and the humility
that just says it's okay.
I don't always have to have the right answer.
I can make mistakes.
And I think one of the things,
that there's a great freedom in that,
'cause our Lord is not limited by our limitations, okay.
It's very important that we understand that.
And something that Lorli said very earlier
that is extremely important is
my weaknesses, not even my sins, define me.
They don't.
My relationship with God defines me.
So on the other end of the spectrum,
not even my gifts and my talents define me.
And very often we can seek our identity
in the things we do well.
We can try and hide the weaknesses
so that others don't see them,
and we can sometimes try and hide them from ourselves
as a cause of shame
or just exposing all my limitations.
But the reality is,
going back to your very first question at the beginning,
it's the relationship with God that defines me
and precisely the way he sees me and the way he loves me.
And from there it becomes a freedom.
When you're dealing with a disorder
like a narcissistic disorder as an example,
that's a process of being able to get to that freedom
because the capacity to control the environment,
to control circumstances, situations
so nothing gets out of my control
and that I don't have to worry about
people seeing my weaknesses or limitations,
that creates its own stress,
where there's the freedom that comes from
being able to say it's okay to have the weaknesses
and God's gonna work with them.
So we found that both a group therapy
and an ongoing therapy can help an individual
both recognize those, be okay with those,
and open the space for a deeper spiritual life.
- As you're talking, that's a good illustration,
I'm just reflecting.
Some of us God has given brother priests
or sister consecrated to be in a group,
in a family setting where we are who we are
and we learn to be accepted and we make our mistakes.
And I was reflecting that some of us
he gives families and wives
to be that person who says into your ear,
like the old Roman generals,
they used to get a parade in their chariot
when they came back from their victory,
and they were always assigned
some older wizened male servant
would be right there on the chariot in their ear saying,
you're just a man, you're not a god.
Don't forget you're not.
We need that.
We need somebody reminding us
of our mortality and our limitations.
And I think often living in some community,
whatever that community is that we're called to,
is part of God's plan for that I think,
so much does he love us, right?
- Amen, amen. - Yeah, yeah.
- There's a healing attribute
to doing dishes on a frequent basis.
(Stephen and Lorli laughing)
- Indeed, indeed.
So maybe as a closing direction
for this beautiful interview
that we've been having here,
sharing very freely for our students
as they're on their pathway
to becoming spiritual directors themselves
or honing their own skills,
if you could go back in time
to say 20 years ago to your younger self,
and maybe just in 30 seconds, right,
what advice might you give your younger self
around this topic of the value of the human sciences
for spiritual direction?
Lorli, would you like to go first?
- Okay, I can go first, yeah.
Two things.
One, I think,
and yeah the most important I think I would tell myself
to make sure I don't rush into judgments too fast.
To remember that every person is a mystery.
And what I see from the person now,
from what she has expressed so far,
I see a little part.
And sometimes we can be very fast in,
let's say, making a diagnosis or
interpreting what is happening.
And of course you have to try and interpret,
but always knowing there is a lot
which I don't know about the person.
And there can be so many circumstantial elements also
that influence the person right now,
and the person is complex, right?
So that on one hand, to give yourself time
to really get to know the person,
and yeah, not to rush judgments
that are too categorical
or too simplistic actually.
- Yeah.
Also a challenge, yes. - Yes.
- Very good.
- And the second one would actually be
an invitation not to give myself
too much importance as a guide.
The guide of each person is God.
And it's,
yeah, to make sure I don't give myself
an importance or a role in the life of the guidee
that really I don't have as a spiritual guide.
I think those two things are the ones that come to mind.
- Very good, thank you, thank you very much.
Father Shawn.
- Well, I have to agree with Lorli on that one in fact.
(Stephen and Lorli laughing)
Just those exact two.
One is not jumping to the conclusions.
And again I think even coming into a situation
where like, well, clearly they're doing this
and this is the reason and it's not,
or having especially in the confessional
when I get to hear circumstances at times
what led to a person to actually have an abortion,
and it's not cut and dry,
what's led individuals to practice birth control,
and realize, okay, there is more to the situation
than just a black and white answer.
But the same will apply to the psychological at times
because there's been something that's happened in the past,
it's producing things now
that the person actually doesn't have full control over.
And it's extremely important
first to listen and listen to the story
as opposed to just jump to the conclusions.
And second, I can't agree with Lorli more
than just from my own mistakes of actually
thinking too much depended on myself
or trying to do too much of the whole package
and realizing that's not,
one, that's not what our Lord is asking,
two, our Lord, I think, gives us limitations
so we learn how to work in team,
including the capacity to let others help.
I'm not the sole guide of an individual.
I just happened to play a part,
a small part really,
on the spiritual side,
but because of the complexity
in the totality of the person,
there are too many angles to that person that need
help from all those different angles.
And I think the last thing, I would add one, third one,
and that is there is no circumstance
that God can't get into.
There is no brokenness that is beyond his remedy
to use it both for the good of the person
and into his glory.
And I think that's extremely important
that even in the worst of scenarios,
and I've seen a few that have been very difficult,
that God is present,
and that God, even in that brokenness,
is doing something great in helping the person
to see that and to trust that
despite what seems to be like a very dark situation
and that with very few options of hope.
- Wow.
- Yes.
- Makes a lot of sense.
Thank you so much for sharing this wisdom
with our future spiritual directors.
They're discerning and preparing for this calling
of helping in that little way that you talk about
to help other souls on their journey get closer to God.
So thank you so much.
- Thank you, Steve.
(piano music)