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(piano music)

- Yes, I could share another
story of a lay person

that I guided also some years
ago in a different country.

And it was this married woman who was

in that country she was a foreigner.

And she was going through,

she was this very, very spiritual,

very devoted person,

also very committed to her faith.

She had many times she had difficult,

or she just suffered from deep,

let's say, feelings of
insecurity and anxiety

that somehow had to do
with this whole fact

of being a foreigner
in that country and of,

yeah, having had not few experiences of

not being fully accepted
or integrated or whatever.

And I remember that she would

many times blame herself

for those feelings maybe of insecurity,

sometimes of anger, sometimes of anxiety

as something that she was lacking faith

and she was lacking hope,

and she should rely more on the Lord,

and if she did, she would
not have all these feelings

and all these emotions or all
this anger sometimes, right?

And there comes what I
would like to refer also

and connected with what
Father Shawn said before.

The sense of guilt, I think there,

it's such an important area,

what I have seen in my own
story and accompanying others,

that many times there is a sense of guilt

that is put on the level of sin and virtue

or is given a moral weight
where it actually doesn't.

And that's what with
this particular woman,

as we talked through the situations

where she would have these
emotions of anger or of anxiety,

and they would be connected
with certain situations

in which she experienced fear,

in which she experienced a
sense of not being respected,

and then would come the
moral conscience, right?

You're a Christian,

you should not have feelings of hatred,

and you should not.

To understand that in
the emotions that arise,

there is no moral weight.

Where the moral conscience comes in is

what do I do with these emotions?

Do I nourish them?

- Yeah.
- Do I give myself

reason to condemn the other person?

But in the fact of
experiencing all of that,

there is no moral guilt.

And that I think is so important,

and it illustrates, I think, again,

how important those human sciences are

to understand how, yeah,
how our emotions work,

how a psychological guilt can come in

which doesn't have a moral weight

and that has to be distinguished.

And there I have experienced or seen

how it brings an interior
freedom, an interior relief,

which actually has to do with
the way that we envision God.

Because if I see God that reproaches me

for having these emotions of anger

or of having this nervousness or whatever,

it's very different than
when I can see a God

that actually embraces
me in all these emotions,

who understands me.

As Father Shawn was saying, right?

He is a God who has embraced our humanity,

who has embraced also the
experience of rejection,

of not being understood.

So there is a very deep connection

in how we interpret our
own interior emotions,

also the image of God that we have

and how we let God into
that interior world

as a redeemer that embraces
me or as a hard judge.

And sometimes I see that
there is a transition

that needs to happen from
that image of a judge

that actually increases
that sense of guilt,

or that understanding redeemer

that is with me, that walks with me,

that helps me to see the truth,

the truth that I am wounded,

the truth that there is anger in me,

but
- Yeah.

- But he's there to help me through it.

- And if I could maybe make
one comment about that.

It strikes me how much our
own experience of humanity

often becomes the image we have of God.

We put that image on him,
right, not realizing it.

That I'm feeling rejected
or I'm feeling guilty,

so then God is somebody who abandons me

or God is somebody who is angry with me.

Very powerful, very powerful.

- Yes, exactly.

- So Steve, one of the
things we have noticed

increasing over the last I'd say 10 years

has been an increase in narcissism.

And not just within the legion,

but I've been watching articles

that are talking about
the church in general

which is society in general,

that more and more of our young people

are developing narcissistic tendencies

that then create blind spots

for being able to read the
feelings of other people,

to actually care about the
feelings of other people,

to recognize one's own weaknesses

and to be able to admit

one's own weaknesses and limitations.

And I think couple that with
possibly the male psychology

and the preparation for the priesthood,

sometimes there's a pressure

that thinks you can make mistakes,

you have to be always the one leading,

the one charging the hill,

and the one that is not without mistakes.

And so one of the things
I think we're learning,

or I've been learning at least,

to tell our younger priests
when they're coming in is

don't be afraid to make mistakes.

In fact give yourself the
freedom to make mistakes,

because if you don't have that freedom,

you're gonna create a stress
within yourself that over time,

trauma can come in a one-time experience,

it can come in a series
of little experiences,

but something that's sustained,

a sustained pressure over time

can actually become a traumatic experience

that actually produces

results that a person really doesn't want

and can become a disorder
if they're not careful,

or narcissistic disorder.

So that incapacity to actually recognize

or that willingness to say, okay,

actually I have limitations

and I do make mistakes,

and I'm okay with my mistakes

because they don't define me,

that's hard.

Okay, and it's hard when you know

you're going to be
oftentimes in the limelight

or you're gonna be in front of people

or people look to you for guidance.

And it's been one of the areas

where I see that it's been a challenge

where at times we will
have individuals with much,

that actually have developed
narcissistic disorders.

And it makes it very difficult
for them to work in team,

to work with others,

okay, because they actually
end up hurting people,

running people over.

And even when you bring
things to their attention,

it's always somebody else's fault.

It's always
(Stephen laughing)

some other reason as to why--

- [Stephen] Yeah.

- This exists but it's not them.

And so to be able to confront
that and to be able to,

one of the things that has helped

is the capacity to have group therapy.

That has actually been one of
the areas that in real-time

being able to have assessments
of input from others

when at times they have the blind spots

that are not allowing for them to see.

And also just the growth and the humility

that just says it's okay.

I don't always have to
have the right answer.

I can make mistakes.

And I think one of the things,

that there's a great freedom in that,

'cause our Lord is not limited
by our limitations, okay.

It's very important
that we understand that.

And something that Lorli said very earlier

that is extremely important is

my weaknesses, not even
my sins, define me.

They don't.

My relationship with God defines me.

So on the other end of the spectrum,

not even my gifts and
my talents define me.

And very often we can seek our identity

in the things we do well.

We can try and hide the weaknesses

so that others don't see them,

and we can sometimes try
and hide them from ourselves

as a cause of shame

or just exposing all my limitations.

But the reality is,

going back to your very first
question at the beginning,

it's the relationship
with God that defines me

and precisely the way he sees
me and the way he loves me.

And from there it becomes a freedom.

When you're dealing with a disorder

like a narcissistic
disorder as an example,

that's a process of being
able to get to that freedom

because the capacity to
control the environment,

to control circumstances, situations

so nothing gets out of my control

and that I don't have to worry about

people seeing my
weaknesses or limitations,

that creates its own stress,

where there's the freedom that comes from

being able to say it's
okay to have the weaknesses

and God's gonna work with them.

So we found that both a group therapy

and an ongoing therapy
can help an individual

both recognize those, be okay with those,

and open the space for
a deeper spiritual life.

- As you're talking,
that's a good illustration,

I'm just reflecting.

Some of us God has given brother priests

or sister consecrated to be in a group,

in a family setting
where we are who we are

and we learn to be accepted
and we make our mistakes.

And I was reflecting that some of us

he gives families and wives

to be that person who says into your ear,

like the old Roman generals,

they used to get a parade in their chariot

when they came back from their victory,

and they were always assigned

some older wizened male servant

would be right there on the
chariot in their ear saying,

you're just a man, you're not a god.

Don't forget you're not.

We need that.

We need somebody reminding us

of our mortality and our limitations.

And I think often living
in some community,

whatever that community
is that we're called to,

is part of God's plan for that I think,

so much does he love us, right?

- Amen, amen.
- Yeah, yeah.

- There's a healing attribute

to doing dishes on a frequent basis.

(Stephen and Lorli laughing)

- Indeed, indeed.

So maybe as a closing direction

for this beautiful interview

that we've been having here,

sharing very freely for our students

as they're on their pathway

to becoming spiritual directors themselves

or honing their own skills,

if you could go back in time

to say 20 years ago to your younger self,

and maybe just in 30 seconds, right,

what advice might you
give your younger self

around this topic of the
value of the human sciences

for spiritual direction?

Lorli, would you like to go first?

- Okay, I can go first, yeah.

Two things.

One, I think,

and yeah the most important
I think I would tell myself

to make sure I don't rush
into judgments too fast.

To remember that every
person is a mystery.

And what I see from the person now,

from what she has expressed so far,

I see a little part.

And sometimes we can be very fast in,

let's say, making a diagnosis or

interpreting what is happening.

And of course you have
to try and interpret,

but always knowing there is a lot

which I don't know about the person.

And there can be so many
circumstantial elements also

that influence the person right now,

and the person is complex, right?

So that on one hand, to give yourself time

to really get to know the person,

and yeah, not to rush judgments

that are too categorical

or too simplistic actually.

- Yeah.

Also a challenge, yes.
- Yes.

- Very good.

- And the second one would actually be

an invitation not to give myself

too much importance as a guide.

The guide of each person is God.

And it's,

yeah, to make sure I don't give myself

an importance or a role
in the life of the guidee

that really I don't have
as a spiritual guide.

I think those two things are
the ones that come to mind.

- Very good, thank you,
thank you very much.

Father Shawn.

- Well, I have to agree with
Lorli on that one in fact.

(Stephen and Lorli laughing)

Just those exact two.

One is not jumping to the conclusions.

And again I think even
coming into a situation

where like, well, clearly
they're doing this

and this is the reason and it's not,

or having especially in the confessional

when I get to hear circumstances at times

what led to a person to
actually have an abortion,

and it's not cut and dry,

what's led individuals to
practice birth control,

and realize, okay, there
is more to the situation

than just a black and white answer.

But the same will apply to
the psychological at times

because there's been something
that's happened in the past,

it's producing things now

that the person actually
doesn't have full control over.

And it's extremely important

first to listen and listen to the story

as opposed to just jump
to the conclusions.

And second, I can't agree with Lorli more

than just from my own mistakes of actually

thinking too much depended on myself

or trying to do too much
of the whole package

and realizing that's not,

one, that's not what our Lord is asking,

two, our Lord, I think,
gives us limitations

so we learn how to work in team,

including the capacity to let others help.

I'm not the sole guide of an individual.

I just happened to play a part,

a small part really,

on the spiritual side,

but because of the complexity

in the totality of the person,

there are too many angles
to that person that need

help from all those different angles.

And I think the last thing,
I would add one, third one,

and that is there is no circumstance

that God can't get into.

There is no brokenness
that is beyond his remedy

to use it both for the good of the person

and into his glory.

And I think that's extremely important

that even in the worst of scenarios,

and I've seen a few that
have been very difficult,

that God is present,

and that God, even in that brokenness,

is doing something great
in helping the person

to see that and to trust that

despite what seems to be
like a very dark situation

and that with very few options of hope.

- Wow.

- Yes.

- Makes a lot of sense.

Thank you so much for sharing this wisdom

with our future spiritual directors.

They're discerning and
preparing for this calling

of helping in that little
way that you talk about

to help other souls on their
journey get closer to God.

So thank you so much.

- Thank you, Steve.

- Thank you, Steve.

(piano music)