Facts and fiction about truth and deception | Charles Honts | TEDxBoise
-
0:07 - 0:08Truth and deception.
-
0:09 - 0:11Lying and telling the truth
-
0:12 - 0:14and knowing the difference
between the two. -
0:15 - 0:17It's something that I think about a lot.
-
0:18 - 0:22And it's not that I'm
sort of a cynical, morbid, old guy -
0:23 - 0:28who thinks a lot about lying, but I do,
and I do because it's important. -
0:28 - 0:30(Laughter)
-
0:30 - 0:33It's important for us
in an interpersonal level. -
0:33 - 0:35We have conversations with people;
-
0:35 - 0:36we often are concerned
-
0:36 - 0:38whether they're being
truthful with us or not. -
0:39 - 0:41It's important for us as a society.
-
0:41 - 0:43It's important for us as a world.
-
0:44 - 0:48When lies get told to societies,
and they're believed, -
0:48 - 0:50it has a special name;
-
0:50 - 0:51it's called propaganda.
-
0:51 - 0:56And when propaganda happens,
some really bad things can happen. -
0:56 - 0:59And so I want to talk
about that topic tonight -
0:59 - 1:01from a point of view of science.
-
1:01 - 1:03And the science is really interesting
-
1:03 - 1:06because it's got
some interesting contradictions -
1:06 - 1:08and, I think, surprising findings in it.
-
1:08 - 1:11But I'd like to make this real for you
with a couple of stories, -
1:11 - 1:12just to begin with.
-
1:13 - 1:16The first one is about a young man
named Jeffrey Deskovic. -
1:17 - 1:19You can see Jeffrey here;
-
1:19 - 1:21he's about 16 years old,
-
1:21 - 1:26living the life of the average
American 15- and 16-year-old. -
1:26 - 1:28He was in high school,
-
1:28 - 1:30everything was going fairly well,
-
1:30 - 1:35and in the fall of 1989,
a tragedy befell his high school -
1:36 - 1:37and one of his classmates.
-
1:38 - 1:41A classmate named Angela
went out on a photographic project -
1:42 - 1:43and went missing.
-
1:44 - 1:46She was gone for a couple of days.
-
1:47 - 1:48And then her body was found,
-
1:48 - 1:50and she'd been brutally
raped and murdered. -
1:52 - 1:53Jeffrey took this kind of hard.
-
1:54 - 1:55He knew Angela;
-
1:55 - 1:59they were not boyfriend and girlfriend,
but they knew each other. -
1:59 - 2:01Angela had been nice to him;
-
2:01 - 2:02she'd helped him with his homework.
-
2:03 - 2:06And he was deeply affected by her loss.
-
2:06 - 2:08He went to the funeral.
-
2:08 - 2:11He wrote a letter
that he put on the casket. -
2:11 - 2:14He broke down and cried
during the funeral. -
2:15 - 2:17This was in a small town in New York.
-
2:18 - 2:21The police were very interested
in solving the crime, -
2:21 - 2:25and as they often do,
they went to the funeral. -
2:25 - 2:28They thought Jeffrey
reacted just too much, -
2:28 - 2:30and they became interested in Jeffrey.
-
2:31 - 2:33They interviewed Jeffrey
a couple of times, -
2:33 - 2:36but they also interviewed
a lot of other people. -
2:36 - 2:39And for some reason,
-
2:39 - 2:42they just got very interested in Jeffrey.
-
2:42 - 2:46One morning, they came to his school,
and unbeknownst to his parents, -
2:47 - 2:48they took Jeffrey,
-
2:48 - 2:51and they asked him if he'd come
and take a polygraph test. -
2:52 - 2:55He thought he was going to go down
to the local police station, -
2:55 - 2:57but he was taken some distance away.
-
2:57 - 3:00He was introduced to a polygraph examiner.
-
3:00 - 3:05And really, there was no intention
of running a real polygraph test that day. -
3:05 - 3:07They wanted to interrogate him.
-
3:08 - 3:11The interrogation lasted six hours.
-
3:12 - 3:16And at the end of six hours,
Jeffrey was reduced to tears. -
3:16 - 3:18He was on the floor in the fetal position.
-
3:19 - 3:22The polygraph examiner,
who had been with him for those six hours, -
3:22 - 3:23gave up,
-
3:23 - 3:25and two other detectives came in.
-
3:25 - 3:28And they did what you
hear call the "good cop." -
3:29 - 3:31So they were now the helpful police.
-
3:31 - 3:33And they tell Jeffrey,
-
3:33 - 3:38"If you'll just be honest with us,
we'll get you some treatment, -
3:38 - 3:40you won't have to go to jail."
-
3:40 - 3:41And within about an hour,
-
3:41 - 3:45he had confessed
to having raped and killed Angela. -
3:46 - 3:48But they were lying to him.
-
3:48 - 3:50They didn't take him to treatment.
-
3:50 - 3:52They arrested him
and charged him with murder. -
3:53 - 3:56He almost immediately
recanted the confession, -
3:56 - 3:58and said he only did that
-
3:58 - 4:02because he thought that was the only way
he was going to get away from the police. -
4:02 - 4:05He eventually went to trial,
was convicted, -
4:05 - 4:07and spent the next 16 years in jail.
-
4:08 - 4:11The Innocence Project got involved.
-
4:12 - 4:15They discovered that there was
still DNA from the victim -
4:15 - 4:17that the rapist had left behind.
-
4:18 - 4:20They, after a long court battle,
-
4:21 - 4:24got permission to test that
against the national database, -
4:24 - 4:26which now existed, 16 years later.
-
4:27 - 4:31And a hit was found, a positive hit,
on the contributor of the semen. -
4:32 - 4:36And Jeffrey was released
as a wrongfully convicted person. -
4:37 - 4:41He sued and ended up
with quite a bit of money. -
4:41 - 4:44And today, Jeffrey
is actually doing quite well. -
4:45 - 4:48He took some of that money
and created a foundation -
4:48 - 4:50to help wrongfully convicted people.
-
4:50 - 4:53And right now he's in law school,
-
4:53 - 4:57going to become a lawyer
to represent wrongfully convicted people. -
4:58 - 5:00But here's a young man
who told the truth to the police, -
5:01 - 5:02and he wasn't believed.
-
5:03 - 5:06Then he lied to the police
because he gave a false confession, -
5:07 - 5:08and he was believed.
-
5:09 - 5:12Then he went to trial,
and 12 people sat in judgment over him, -
5:12 - 5:15and he said that he was innocent,
and they didn't believe him. -
5:16 - 5:17And he went to jail.
-
5:18 - 5:21That would be tragedy enough
if it was just Jeffrey. -
5:21 - 5:22But it's not just Jeffrey.
-
5:22 - 5:25From the Innocence Project,
we know that there have been -
5:25 - 5:28a quite a number of wrongfully
convicted people. -
5:29 - 5:32About one out of four of them
wrongfully confessed -
5:33 - 5:34to a crime they didn't commit.
-
5:35 - 5:38So this is not an unusual, isolated event.
-
5:39 - 5:41The other event I want to mention is 9/11.
-
5:42 - 5:48And 9/11 is of interest
because those 19 terrorists -
5:48 - 5:50who came to the United States
to attack us, -
5:51 - 5:56every one of them was interviewed
by agents of the United States Government. -
5:56 - 5:59Every one of them,
interviewed at least three times. -
5:59 - 6:03So they were interviewed at the embassy
where they applied for a visa - -
6:03 - 6:07probably interviewed more than once,
given where they came from - -
6:08 - 6:10they were interviewed by Customs
-
6:10 - 6:12when they came to the border
of the United States -
6:12 - 6:14to come inside the United States,
-
6:14 - 6:16and they were also
interviewed by Immigration. -
6:16 - 6:17Each of them lied three times.
-
6:17 - 6:19We didn't catch even one of them.
-
6:21 - 6:23Think what a different world
we'd live in today -
6:24 - 6:27if we'd caught even one of them early on
-
6:27 - 6:28and talked to them.
-
6:31 - 6:33So, that's my interest,
and this is what I do. -
6:33 - 6:35I'm a psychological scientist.
-
6:35 - 6:38I study truthfulness and deception
and how you tell the difference. -
6:39 - 6:41And that science, I think,
is really interesting. -
6:41 - 6:43And I want to give credit to some people
-
6:43 - 6:46because I'm gonna talk -
this is not just my work; -
6:46 - 6:49this is work of a group of people
who do research in this area. -
6:49 - 6:53And I want to just give
some of them credit upfront. -
6:53 - 7:00Charles Bond, Bella DePaulo,
Maria Hartwig, David Raskin, Aldert Vrij. -
7:00 - 7:01And if you're interested,
-
7:01 - 7:03those are names
to go look for to read more. -
7:05 - 7:08And the science has
some interesting things in it. -
7:08 - 7:12One is we have interesting
attitudes about lying. -
7:13 - 7:14If you ask people,
-
7:14 - 7:17"What makes up good character?
-
7:17 - 7:20What do you want to see in people
to think that they're a good person -
7:20 - 7:21and have good character?"
-
7:21 - 7:28And near the top of that list
is always "sincere, honest, truthful." -
7:29 - 7:33And at the bottom of that list -
what's bad character? -
7:33 - 7:37The number one or sort
of the numbered last is "liar." -
7:38 - 7:39We don't like liars.
-
7:39 - 7:41At least we say we don't like liars.
-
7:42 - 7:45But if you go and you look
at people's behavior, -
7:46 - 7:49you find out something really funny,
really interesting, that doesn't fit. -
7:50 - 7:53Because if you look at people's behavior,
they lie frequently. -
7:55 - 7:59If you look at conversations
that last at least 10 minutes, -
8:01 - 8:05the data say we lie in about
one out of every four of those. -
8:06 - 8:11We lie to about one of every three people
we have a conversation with. -
8:12 - 8:16When we talk to our
significant others, our spouses, -
8:16 - 8:18we lie in about one out of ten of those.
-
8:20 - 8:21Hmm.
-
8:21 - 8:23(Laughter)
-
8:23 - 8:27Now, all that lying
might not be a problem -
8:28 - 8:30if we were good at detecting lies.
-
8:31 - 8:33And actually if you ask people,
most people think -
8:33 - 8:37they're pretty good at detecting lies,
particularly in people they know well, -
8:37 - 8:39like their children
or their significant others. -
8:40 - 8:42But again, when you look at the data,
-
8:42 - 8:44that's not true.
-
8:44 - 8:47And I wish I could tell you
that there is some magic bullet, -
8:47 - 8:50some magic finding from researching.
-
8:50 - 8:53Goodness knows there are people out there
who will tell you that -
8:53 - 8:55because they teach seminars,
and they sell books, -
8:55 - 8:57and they train police officers.
-
8:58 - 8:59But what the research says
-
9:00 - 9:03is that if you look at the ability
of having a conversation with someone -
9:03 - 9:06and detecting whether
they're telling you the truth or not, -
9:06 - 9:09your accuracy is about 54 percent.
-
9:10 - 9:13If you flip a coin, it's 50 percent.
-
9:14 - 9:15What terrible it is.
-
9:17 - 9:20And it turns out there just
really isn't much to find. -
9:20 - 9:24You know, I can ask that question, "Why?
Why are we so bad at this?" -
9:24 - 9:26And I think there are two reasons.
-
9:26 - 9:29One has to do with our motivations.
-
9:29 - 9:31And there's a very large
psychological literature -
9:31 - 9:35about how we make decisions,
and I think it's appropriate here. -
9:35 - 9:38And I don't have time to tell you
all the details of that research, -
9:38 - 9:41but I can capture it for you
from some literature. -
9:42 - 9:44There was a fantasy book
that was very popular -
9:44 - 9:45about 10 years ago
-
9:45 - 9:47written by a fellow named Terry Goodkind;
-
9:47 - 9:49it's called The Wizard's First Rule.
-
9:50 - 9:52And the wizard's first rule is this:
-
9:53 - 9:55With a little bit of motivation,
-
9:56 - 10:00almost anybody can be led
to believe almost anything, -
10:01 - 10:05either because:
1) they want to believe it's true, -
10:06 - 10:09or 2) they're afraid that it's true.
-
10:10 - 10:15I want you to think about that
for a little while and just process that. -
10:15 - 10:19But, you know, that captures
an awful lot of psychological research. -
10:19 - 10:20So that's one problem we have.
-
10:20 - 10:24Our motives get in our way [in] how
we interpret the data that we see. -
10:25 - 10:29The other is that it turns out,
it is just really hard to do this. -
10:29 - 10:34There is very little in the body language,
and in the voice, and in the face -
10:35 - 10:36that gives away liars.
-
10:37 - 10:38And the reason for that
-
10:38 - 10:41is that the very things
that make the liar nervous, -
10:42 - 10:44they're afraid they're going
to get caught - -
10:44 - 10:45it does cause changes;
-
10:45 - 10:47people do get anxious about that;
-
10:47 - 10:48they do alter their behavior.
-
10:50 - 10:52But the truthful person -
think about Jeffrey - -
10:53 - 10:55the truthful person
who is talking to people, -
10:55 - 10:57who he thinks don't believe them,
-
10:57 - 11:01you have fear that you're not going
to be believed when you're truthful. -
11:01 - 11:05And the body language you give off
is exactly the same. -
11:07 - 11:09So, where does that leave us?
-
11:09 - 11:11Well, science hasn't given up.
-
11:12 - 11:14And one approach is technology.
-
11:15 - 11:17I've been involved
in one of the technologies -
11:17 - 11:19for most of my adult life,
and that's polygraph testing. -
11:20 - 11:23I was trained as a polygraph tester
and have done that work, -
11:24 - 11:27and although there's a lot
of mythology about polygraph, -
11:27 - 11:29what the science says is that:
-
11:29 - 11:33Properly conducted polygraph tests
can be rather accurate. -
11:35 - 11:38In the lab, we can easily get
test accuracies up around 90 percent, -
11:39 - 11:42and there are field studies
that have replicated that, -
11:43 - 11:45but there's a problem with polygraph.
-
11:45 - 11:48One is it requires a skilled
examiner to run the test. -
11:49 - 11:51And a test takes two hours.
-
11:52 - 11:54So you need an instrument,
an examiner, and two hours. -
11:55 - 11:56Most of the time, we don't have that;
-
11:56 - 11:58it's really expensive in that regard.
-
11:59 - 12:01The other problem is
there are police agencies -
12:01 - 12:05like the one that Jeffrey Deskovic
got involved in, -
12:05 - 12:10where they used the polygraph
as a pretense for interrogation. -
12:10 - 12:13And the polygraph
is very dangerous in that setting. -
12:15 - 12:19Recent research has just reported
that [if] you look at the FBI - -
12:19 - 12:20and the FBI is an agency
-
12:20 - 12:23that uses polygraph
as a pretense to interrogate - -
12:24 - 12:26if you are actually innocent,
-
12:26 - 12:29and you agree to take
a polygraph from the FBI, -
12:29 - 12:34your chance of not being interrogated
is only 20 percent. -
12:36 - 12:39Four out of five innocent people
get interrogated. -
12:42 - 12:43There are other technologies.
-
12:43 - 12:46There are some new ones
that look at the central nervous system. -
12:46 - 12:48So there's EEG and the fMRI.
-
12:49 - 12:51And again, they involve
expensive equipment. -
12:52 - 12:54They've looked interesting
in the laboratory, -
12:54 - 12:57and they haven't made it out
into the field. -
12:58 - 12:59There's also a new test
-
12:59 - 13:03called an ocular-motor
detection of deception test -
13:03 - 13:04that looks at the eyes.
-
13:05 - 13:08So the pupils of our eyes
do get smaller and larger -
13:08 - 13:09as we are processing.
-
13:09 - 13:12It is harder to lie
than it is to tell the truth. -
13:13 - 13:15And those tests are around.
-
13:15 - 13:17There's some research on them
that looks promising. -
13:17 - 13:20We're waiting for more data
to come in on this. -
13:20 - 13:23And we will need to see
if they'll move out into the field -
13:23 - 13:24and be useable.
-
13:25 - 13:27The final area, though, comes back -
-
13:27 - 13:30the problem with all those technologies
is that they're expensive. -
13:30 - 13:32You're not going to use that
-
13:32 - 13:34if you want to talk
to somebody who works for you, -
13:34 - 13:35or you want to find out
-
13:35 - 13:38whether your spouse
is telling you the truth or not. -
13:39 - 13:44And so, are there ways that we can improve
interpersonal detection of deception -
13:44 - 13:47and reading body language,
and face, and all that doesn't work? -
13:48 - 13:51But there are ways we can go about that
-
13:51 - 13:55because what the research says
is that what people say -
13:55 - 13:58is way more important
than how they say it. -
14:00 - 14:03So, there's an interview technique
that's been developed - -
14:03 - 14:08it's a forensic interview technique -
and it's really pretty much common sense. -
14:08 - 14:09But, of course,
-
14:09 - 14:11common sense often isn't common.
-
14:12 - 14:15And all this technique really does involve
-
14:15 - 14:18is letting the person
you're interested in assessing -
14:18 - 14:19tell their story.
-
14:21 - 14:22It's called a free narrative.
-
14:22 - 14:24So, you literally do just that.
-
14:25 - 14:26"Tell me what happened."
-
14:27 - 14:28And then you have to stop talking.
-
14:29 - 14:31A lot of us find that really hard to do.
-
14:31 - 14:34That's not how we have
conversations with people. -
14:34 - 14:35Conversations usually go back and forth.
-
14:36 - 14:39But in this case, you want to just
ask them to tell you their story, -
14:39 - 14:41and then stop talking, and listen.
-
14:43 - 14:46Listen carefully, take notes.
-
14:47 - 14:48If you have facts,
-
14:50 - 14:52there are things you know to be true,
-
14:52 - 14:54don't tell them about those.
-
14:54 - 14:56If they contradict them,
don't confront them. -
14:56 - 14:58Just listen until they finish.
-
14:59 - 15:03And then when they finish,
you strategically use your evidence. -
15:03 - 15:05It's called "the strategic
use of evidence." -
15:05 - 15:06Isn't that surprising?
-
15:06 - 15:08(Laughter)
-
15:08 - 15:10So the person finishes their story.
-
15:10 - 15:12You've been listening carefully.
-
15:12 - 15:16You know X happened,
but they never mentioned X. -
15:16 - 15:18And so you go, "Well, I'm confused.
-
15:20 - 15:25I know that at this time X happened,
but you didn't talk about that. -
15:25 - 15:26Can you tell me why?"
-
15:27 - 15:30And for the innocent person,
most likely it is they just forgot. -
15:31 - 15:34Because when we tell stories
about things we have experienced, -
15:34 - 15:35and they're true stories,
-
15:35 - 15:38we often forget to tell about the details.
-
15:38 - 15:40We often have to go back and fix it.
-
15:40 - 15:43Think about talking to a friend
about something that happened to you -
15:43 - 15:44just recently.
-
15:45 - 15:48And you'll know that that's true.
We do that all the time. -
15:48 - 15:49For the innocent person,
-
15:49 - 15:53that new evidence is easy
to incorporate into their story -
15:53 - 15:54because it's in fact true.
-
15:54 - 15:55Their story is true.
-
15:55 - 15:58"Oh, I just forgot to tell you that.
This is blah blah ..." -
15:58 - 15:59And they fill it in.
-
16:00 - 16:03For the liar, it's much more difficult.
-
16:04 - 16:05Because the liar -
-
16:05 - 16:09you know, the first rule of lying
is you got to keep the lie straight. -
16:09 - 16:11And so they've now told you
their whole story. -
16:12 - 16:15And now you've given them
a new piece of evidence. -
16:15 - 16:17They've got to work a lot harder
to put that back in. -
16:18 - 16:21And if you have more pieces of evidence,
you strategically introduce them -
16:21 - 16:23one at a time.
-
16:23 - 16:24And what we find is
-
16:25 - 16:29that with people who are outright lying,
their stories eventually collapse -
16:29 - 16:33because they just can't keep up
with the influx of new evidence. -
16:35 - 16:38So, I want to end up with two ideas.
-
16:39 - 16:43One is that you have to talk to somebody
and try to make an assessment -
16:43 - 16:45about whether they're being
truthful or not. -
16:45 - 16:46Listen.
-
16:46 - 16:51Listen carefully to what they have to say
and remember that what they say -
16:52 - 16:54is far more important
than how they say it. -
16:55 - 16:57Because even innocent people
can look very nervous. -
16:58 - 17:00And the other one is:
-
17:00 - 17:02Don't believe anything
-
17:03 - 17:06just because you want
to believe that it's true -
17:07 - 17:09or because you're afraid that it's true.
-
17:10 - 17:13Our relationships, our lives,
-
17:15 - 17:17our country, the world, in fact,
-
17:17 - 17:19may well depend upon that.
-
17:20 - 17:21Thank you very much.
-
17:21 - 17:24(Applause)
- Title:
- Facts and fiction about truth and deception | Charles Honts | TEDxBoise
- Description:
-
Can you tell when someone is lying to you? Do lie detection wizards exist?
Charles R. Honts, Professor of Psychological Science at Boise State University, is an internationally known expert on deception and deception detection. Having testified as an expert witness more than 100 times in court, he dispels common lie detection myths through the lens of science and demystifies the topic of deception detection. He continues a 36-year long research program that focuses on applying psychological science to real-world problems. He is internationally recognized as one of the world's top experts on credibility assessment.
Professor Honts has published and/or presented more than 350 scientific papers on deception detection. He has also published and given expert testimony on interrogation and false confession, eyewitness identification, and the forensic interviewing of children. Besides the United States, Professor Honts has given lectures and continuing education in Canada, China, Columbia, Israel, Italy, Mexico, Norway, Sweden, and The Netherlands, and has appeared in courts around the world as an expert witness 121 times.
This talk was given at a TEDx event using the TED conference format but independently organized by a local community. Learn more at https://www.ted.com/tedx
- Video Language:
- English
- Team:
closed TED
- Project:
- TEDxTalks
- Duration:
- 17:27
![]() |
Peter van de Ven approved English subtitles for Facts and fiction about truth and deception | Charles Honts | TEDxBoise | |
![]() |
Peter van de Ven edited English subtitles for Facts and fiction about truth and deception | Charles Honts | TEDxBoise | |
![]() |
Peter van de Ven edited English subtitles for Facts and fiction about truth and deception | Charles Honts | TEDxBoise | |
![]() |
Peter van de Ven edited English subtitles for Facts and fiction about truth and deception | Charles Honts | TEDxBoise | |
![]() |
Maria K. accepted English subtitles for Facts and fiction about truth and deception | Charles Honts | TEDxBoise | |
![]() |
Maria K. edited English subtitles for Facts and fiction about truth and deception | Charles Honts | TEDxBoise | |
![]() |
Maria K. edited English subtitles for Facts and fiction about truth and deception | Charles Honts | TEDxBoise | |
![]() |
Maria K. edited English subtitles for Facts and fiction about truth and deception | Charles Honts | TEDxBoise |