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Cloe Shasha: So welcome, Ibram,
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and thank you so much for joining us.
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Ibram X. Kendi: Well thank you, Cloe,
and thank you Whitney,
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and thank you everyone
for joining this conversation.
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And so, a few weeks ago,
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on the same day we learned
about the brutal murder of George Floyd,
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we also learned that
a white woman in Central Park
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who chose not to leash her dog
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and was told by a black man nearby
that she needed to leash her dog,
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instead decided
to threaten this black male,
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instead decided to call the police
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and claim that her life
was being threatened.
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And of course, when we learned
about that through a video,
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many Americans were outraged,
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and this woman, Amy Cooper,
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ended up going on national TV
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and saying,
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like countless other Americans have said
right after they engaged in a racist act,
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"I am not racist."
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And I say countless Americans
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because when you really think
about the history of Americans
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expressing racist ideas,
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supporting racist policies,
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you're really talking about
a history of people
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who have claimed they're not racist,
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because everyone claims
that they're not racist,
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whether we're talking about
the Amy Coopers of the world,
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whether we're talking about Donald Trump,
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who, right after he said
that majority-black Baltimore
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is a rat and rodent-infested mess
that no human being would want to live in,
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and he was challenged as being racist,
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he said, actually, I'm the least racist
person anywhere in the world.
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And so really the heartbeat
of racism itself
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has always been denial,
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and the sound of that heartbeat
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has always been, "I'm not racist."
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And so what I'm trying to do with my work
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is to really get Americans
to eliminate the concept of "not racist"
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from their vocabulary,
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and realize we're either being racist
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or anti-racist.
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We're either expressing ideas
that suggest certain racial groups
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are better or worse than others,
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superior or inferior than others.
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We're either being racist,
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or we're being anti-racist.
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We're expressing notions
that the racial groups are equals,
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despite any cultural
or even ethnic differences.
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We're either supporting
policies that are leading
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to racial inequities and injustice,
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like we saw in Louisville,
where Breonna Taylor was murdered,
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or we're supporting policies
and pushing policies
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that are leading to justice
and equity for all.
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And so I think we should be very clear
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about whether we're
expressing racist ideas,
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about whether we're
supporting racist policies,
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and admit when we are,
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because to be anti-racist
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is to admit when
we expressed a racist idea,
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is to say, you know what?
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When I was doing that in Central Park,
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I was indeed being racist.
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But I'm going to change.
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I'm going to strive to be anti-racist.
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And to be racist
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is to constantly deny
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the racial inequities
that pervade American society,
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to constantly deny the racist ideas
that pervade American minds.
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And so I want to built
a just and equitable society,
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and the only way we're going
to even begin that process
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is if we admit our racism
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and start building an anti-racist world.
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Thank you.
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CS: Thank you so much for that.
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You know, your book,
"How To Be An Anti-Racist,"
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has become a bestseller
in light of what's been happening,
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and you've been speaking a bit
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to the ways in which
anti-racism and racism
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are the only two polar opposite ways
to hold a view on races.
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I'm curious if you
could talk a little bit more
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about what the basic tenets
of anti-racism are,
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for people who aren't as familiar with it
in terms of how they can be anti-racist.
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IXK: Sure. And so I mentioned in my talk
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that the heartbeat of racism is denial,
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and really the heartbeat
of anti-racism is confession,
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is the recognition
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that to grow up in this society
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is to literally at some point in our lives
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probably internalize
ideas that are racist,
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ideas that suggest certain racial groups
are better or worse than others,
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and because we believe
in racial hierarchy,
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because Americans have been
systematically taught
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that black people are more dangerous,
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that black people are more criminal-like,
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when we live in a society
where black people
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are 40 percent of the national
incarcerated population,
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that's going to seem normal to people.
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When we live in a society
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in a city like Minneapolis
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where black people
are 20 percent of the population
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but more than 60 percent of the people
being subjected to police shootings,
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it's going to seem normal.
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And so to be anti-racist
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is to believe that there's nothing wrong
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or inferior about black people
or any other racial group.
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There's nothing dangerous
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about black people
or any other racial group.
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And so when we see these
racial disparities all around us,
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we see them as abnormal,
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and then we start to figure out, OK,
what policies are behind
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so many black people
being killed by police.
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What policies are behind
so many Latinx people
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being disproportionately
infected with COVID?
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How can I be a part of the struggle
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to upend those policies and replace them
with more anti-racist policies?
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Whitney Pennington Rodgers:
And so it sounds like
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you do make that distinction, then,
between not racist and anti-racist.
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I guess, could you talk a little bit
more about that and break that down?
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What is the difference between the two?
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IXK: