-
Not Synced
Cloe Shasha: So welcome, Ibram,
-
Not Synced
and thank you so much for joining us.
-
Not Synced
Ibram X. Kendi: Well thank you, Cloe,
and thank you Whitney,
-
Not Synced
and thank you everyone
for joining this conversation.
-
Not Synced
And so, a few weeks ago,
-
Not Synced
on the same day we learned
about the brutal murder of George Floyd,
-
Not Synced
we also learned that
a white woman in Central Park
-
Not Synced
who chose not to leash her dog
-
Not Synced
and was told by a black man nearby
that she needed to leash her dog,
-
Not Synced
instead decided
to threaten this black male,
-
Not Synced
instead decided to call the police
-
Not Synced
and claim that her life
was being threatened.
-
Not Synced
And of course, when we learned
about that through a video,
-
Not Synced
many Americans were outraged,
-
Not Synced
and this woman, Amy Cooper,
-
Not Synced
ended up going on national TV
-
Not Synced
and saying,
-
Not Synced
like countless other Americans have said
right after they engaged in a racist act,
-
Not Synced
"I am not racist."
-
Not Synced
And I say countless Americans
-
Not Synced
because when you really think
about the history of Americans
-
Not Synced
expressing racist ideas,
-
Not Synced
supporting racist policies,
-
Not Synced
you're really talking about
a history of people
-
Not Synced
who have claimed they're not racist,
-
Not Synced
because everyone claims
that they're not racist,
-
Not Synced
whether we're talking about
the Amy Coopers of the world,
-
Not Synced
whether we're talking about Donald Trump,
-
Not Synced
who, right after he said
that majority-black Baltimore
-
Not Synced
is a rat and rodent-infested mess
that no human being would want to live in,
-
Not Synced
and he was challenged as being racist,
-
Not Synced
he said, actually, I'm the least racist
person anywhere in the world.
-
Not Synced
And so really the heartbeat
of racism itself
-
Not Synced
has always been denial,
-
Not Synced
and the sound of that heartbeat
-
Not Synced
has always been, "I'm not racist."
-
Not Synced
And so what I'm trying to do with my work
-
Not Synced
is to really get Americans
to eliminate the concept of "not racist"
-
Not Synced
from their vocabulary,
-
Not Synced
and realize we're either being racist
-
Not Synced
or anti-racist.
-
Not Synced
We're either expressing ideas
that suggest certain racial groups
-
Not Synced
are better or worse than others,
-
Not Synced
superior or inferior than others.
-
Not Synced
We're either being racist,
-
Not Synced
or we're being anti-racist.
-
Not Synced
We're expressing notions
that the racial groups are equals,
-
Not Synced
despite any cultural
or even ethnic differences.
-
Not Synced
We're either supporting
policies that are leading
-
Not Synced
to racial inequities and injustice,
-
Not Synced
like we saw in Louisville,
where Breonna Taylor was murdered,
-
Not Synced
or we're supporting policies
and pushing policies
-
Not Synced
that are leading to justice
and equity for all.
-
Not Synced
And so I think we should be very clear
-
Not Synced
about whether we're
expressing racist ideas,
-
Not Synced
about whether we're
supporting racist policies,
-
Not Synced
and admit when we are,
-
Not Synced
because to be anti-racist
-
Not Synced
is to admit when
we expressed a racist idea,
-
Not Synced
is to say, you know what?
-
Not Synced
When I was doing that in Central Park,
-
Not Synced
I was indeed being racist.
-
Not Synced
But I'm going to change.
-
Not Synced
I'm going to strive to be anti-racist.
-
Not Synced
And to be racist
-
Not Synced
is to constantly deny
-
Not Synced
the racial inequities
that pervade American society,
-
Not Synced
to constantly deny the racist ideas
that pervade American minds.
-
Not Synced
And so I want to built
a just and equitable society,
-
Not Synced
and the only way we're going
to even begin that process
-
Not Synced
is if we admit our racism
-
Not Synced
and start building an anti-racist world.
-
Not Synced
Thank you.
-
Not Synced
CS: Thank you so much for that.
-
Not Synced
You know, your book,
"How To Be An Anti-Racist,"
-
Not Synced
has become a bestseller
in light of what's been happening,
-
Not Synced
and you've been speaking a bit
-
Not Synced
to the ways in which
anti-racism and racism
-
Not Synced
are the only two polar opposite ways
to hold a view on races.
-
Not Synced
I'm curious if you
could talk a little bit more
-
Not Synced
about what the basic tenets
of anti-racism are,
-
Not Synced
for people who aren't as familiar with it
in terms of how they can be anti-racist.
-
Not Synced
IXK: Sure. And so I mentioned in my talk
-
Not Synced
that the heartbeat of racism is denial,
-
Not Synced
and really the heartbeat
of anti-racism is confession,
-
Not Synced
is the recognition
-
Not Synced
that to grow up in this society
-
Not Synced
is to literally at some point in our lives
-
Not Synced
probably internalize
ideas that are racist,
-
Not Synced
ideas that suggest certain racial groups
are better or worse than others,
-
Not Synced
and because we believe
in racial hierarchy,
-
Not Synced
because Americans have been
systematically taught
-
Not Synced
that black people are more dangerous,
-
Not Synced
that black people are more criminal-like,
-
Not Synced
when we live in a society
where black people
-
Not Synced
are 40 percent of the national
incarcerated population,
-
Not Synced
that's going to seem normal to people.
-
Not Synced
When we live in a society
-
Not Synced
in a city like Minneapolis
-
Not Synced
where black people
are 20 percent of the population
-
Not Synced
but more than 60 percent of the people
being subjected to police shootings,
-
Not Synced
it's going to seem normal.
-
Not Synced
And so to be anti-racist
-
Not Synced
is to believe that there's nothing wrong
-
Not Synced
or inferior about black people
or any other racial group.
-
Not Synced
There's nothing dangerous
-
Not Synced
about black people
or any other racial group.
-
Not Synced
And so when we see these
racial disparities all around us,
-
Not Synced
we see them as abnormal,
-
Not Synced
and then we start to figure out, OK,
what policies are behind
-
Not Synced
so many black people
being killed by police.
-
Not Synced
What policies are behind
so many Latinx people
-
Not Synced
being disproportionately
infected with COVID?
-
Not Synced
How can I be a part of the struggle
-
Not Synced
to upend those policies and replace them
with more anti-racist policies?
-
Not Synced
Whitney Pennington Rodgers:
And so it sounds like
-
Not Synced
you do make that distinction, then,
between not racist and anti-racist.
-
Not Synced
I guess, could you talk a little bit
more about that and break that down?
-
Not Synced
What is the difference between the two?
-
Not Synced
IXK: In the most simplest way,
-
Not Synced
a not racist is a racist who is in denial,
-
Not Synced
and an anti-racist is someone
-
Not Synced
who is willing to admit the times
in which they are being racist,
-
Not Synced
and who is willing to recognize
-
Not Synced
the inequities and
the racial problems of our society,
-
Not Synced
and who is willing to challenge
those racial inequities
-
Not Synced
by challenging policy.
-
Not Synced
And so I'm saying this because
literally slaveholders, slave traders,
-
Not Synced
imagine that their ideas
in our terms were not racist.
-
Not Synced
They would say things like,
-
Not Synced
"Black people are the cursed
descendants of Ham,
-
Not Synced
and they're cursed forever
into enslavement."
-
Not Synced
This isn't, "I'm not racist."
-
Not Synced
This is, "God's law."
-
Not Synced
They would say things, like, you know,
-
Not Synced
"Based on science, based on ethnology,
-
Not Synced
based on natural history,
-
Not Synced
black people by nature
-
Not Synced
are predisposed to slavery and servility.
-
Not Synced
This is nature's law. I'm not racist.
-
Not Synced
I'm actually doing what nature
said I'm supposed to be doing."
-
Not Synced
And so this construct of being not racist
and denying one's racism
-
Not Synced
goes all the way back
to the origins of this country.
-
Not Synced
CS: Yeah.
-
Not Synced
And why do you think it has been so hard
-
Not Synced
for some people now to still accept
that neutrality is not enough
-
Not Synced
when it comes to racism?
-
Not Synced
IXK: I think because it takes
a lot of work to be anti-racist.
-
Not Synced
You have to be very vulnerable, right?
-
Not Synced
You have to be willing to admit
that you were wrong.
-
Not Synced
You have to be willing to admit
-
Not Synced
that if you have more,
if you're white, for instance,
-
Not Synced
and you have more, it may not be
because you are more.
-
Not Synced
You have to admit that,
yeah, you've worked hard
-
Not Synced
potentially in your life,
-
Not Synced
but you've also had certain advantages
-
Not Synced
which provided you with opportunities
-
Not Synced
that other people did not have.
-
Not Synced
You have to admit those things,
-
Not Synced
and it's very difficult
-
Not Synced
for people to be publicly,
-
Not Synced
or even privately, self-critical.
-
Not Synced
I think it's also the case of,
-
Not Synced
and I should have probably led with this,
-
Not Synced
how people define "racist."
-
Not Synced
And so people tend to define "racist"
-
Not Synced
as, like, a fixed category,
-
Not Synced
as an identity.
-
Not Synced
This is essential to who a person is.
-
Not Synced
Someone becomes a racist.
-
Not Synced
And so therefore,
-
Not Synced
and then they also connect a racist
with a bad, evil person.
-
Not Synced
They connect a racist
with a Ku Klux Klansman or woman.
-
Not Synced
And they're like,
"I'm not in the Ku Klux Klan,
-
Not Synced
I'm not a bad person,
-
Not Synced
and I've done good things in my life.
-
Not Synced
I've done good things to people of color.
-
Not Synced
And so therefore I can't be racist.
-
Not Synced
I'm not that. That's not my identity.
-
Not Synced
But that's actually not
how we should be defining racist.
-
Not Synced
Racist is a descriptive term.
-
Not Synced
It describes what a person
is saying or doing in any given moment,
-
Not Synced
and so when a person in one moment
-
Not Synced
is expressing a racist idea,
-
Not Synced
in that moment they are being racist
when they're saying black people are lazy.
-
Not Synced
If in the very next moment
-
Not Synced
they're appreciating the cultures
of native people,
-
Not Synced
they're being anti-racist.
-
Not Synced
WPR: And we're going to get
to some questions
-
Not Synced
from our community in a moment,
-
Not Synced
but I think when a lot of people hear
this idea that you're putting forward,
-
Not Synced
this idea of anti-racism,
-
Not Synced
there's this feeling
that this is something
-
Not Synced
that only concerns the white community.
-
Not Synced
And so could you speak a little bit
to how the black community
-
Not Synced
and non-white, other ethnic minorities
-
Not Synced
can participate in and think about
this idea of anti-racism?
-
Not Synced
IXK: Sure.
-
Not Synced
So if white Americans
commonly say, "I'm not racist,"
-
Not Synced
people of color commonly say,
"I can't be racist
-
Not Synced
because I'm a person of color."
-
Not Synced
And then some people of color
say they can't be racist
-
Not Synced
because they have no power.
-
Not Synced
And so, first and foremost,
-
Not Synced
what I've tried to do in my work
is to push back against this idea
-
Not Synced
that people of color have no power.
-
Not Synced
There's nothing more disempowering
-
Not Synced
to say, or to think, as a person of color,
-
Not Synced
than to say you have no power.
-
Not Synced
People of color have long utilized
the most basic power
-
Not Synced
that every human being has,
-
Not Synced
and that's the power to resist
-
Not Synced
racist policies,
-
Not Synced
that's the power to resist
a racist society.
-
Not Synced
But if you're a person of color,
-
Not Synced
and you believe that people
coming here from Honduras and El Salvador
-
Not Synced
are invading this country,
-
Not Synced
you believe that these Latinx immigrants
-
Not Synced
are animals and rapists,
-
Not Synced
then you're certainly not,
if you're black or Asian or native,
-
Not Synced
going to be a part of a struggle
-
Not Synced
to defend Latinx immigrants,
-
Not Synced
to recognize that Latinx immigrants
have as much to give to this country
-
Not Synced
as any other group of people,
-
Not Synced
you're going to view these people
as "taking away your jobs,"
-
Not Synced
and so therefore you're going
to support racist rhetoric,
-
Not Synced
you're going to support racist policies,
-
Not Synced
and even though that is probably
going to be harming you,
-
Not Synced
in other words, it's going to be harming,
-
Not Synced
if you're black, immigrants
coming from Haiti and Nigeria,
-
Not Synced
if you're Asian, immigrants
coming from India.
-
Not Synced
So I think it's critically important
for even people of color
-
Not Synced
to realize they have the power to resist,
-
Not Synced
and when people of color
view other people of color as the problem,
-
Not Synced
they're not going
to view racism as the problem.
-
Not Synced
And anyone who is not viewing
racism as the problem
-
Not Synced
is not being anti-racist.
-
Not Synced
CS: You touched on this a bit
in your beginning talk here,
-
Not Synced
but you've talked about how
racism is the reason
-
Not Synced
that black communities
and communities of color
-
Not Synced
are systematically
disadvantaged in America,
-
Not Synced
which has led to so many more deaths
from COVID-19 in those communities.
-
Not Synced
And yet the media is often
placing the blame on people of color
-
Not Synced
for their vulnerability to illness.
-
Not Synced
So I'm curious, in line with that,
-
Not Synced
what is the relationship
between anti-racism
-
Not Synced
and the potential for systemic change?
-
Not Synced
IXK: I think it's a direct relationship,
-
Not Synced
because when you believe
and have consumed racist ideas,
-
Not Synced
you're not going to be even believe
change is necessary
-
Not Synced
because you're going to believe
that racial inequality is normal.
-
Not Synced
Or, you're not going
to believe change is possible.
-
Not Synced
In other words, you're going to believe
that the reason why black people
-
Not Synced
are being killed by police
at such high rates
-
Not Synced
or the reason why Latinx people
are being infected at such high rates
-
Not Synced
is because there's
something wrong with them,
-
Not Synced
and nothing can be changed.
-
Not Synced
And so you wouldn't even
begin to even see the need
-
Not Synced
for systemic structural change,
-
Not Synced
let alone be a part of the struggle
for systemic structural change.
-
Not Synced
And so, to be anti-racist, again,
-
Not Synced
is to recognize
-
Not Synced
that there's only two causes
of racial inequity:
-
Not Synced
either there's something
wrong with people,
-
Not Synced
or there's something wrong
with power and policy.
-
Not Synced
And if you realize that there's
nothing wrong with any group of people,
-
Not Synced
and I keep mentioning groups --
-
Not Synced
I'm not saying individuals.
-
Not Synced
There's certainly black individuals
-
Not Synced
who didn't take coronavirus seriously,
-
Not Synced
which is one of the reasons
why they were infected.
-
Not Synced
But there are white people
who didn't take coronavirus seriously.
-
Not Synced
No one has ever proven,
actually studies have shown
-
Not Synced
that black people were more likely
to take the coronavirus seriously
-
Not Synced
than white people.
-
Not Synced
We're not talking about individuals here,
-
Not Synced
and we certainly should not
be individualizing groups.
-
Not Synced
We certainly should not be looking at
the individual behavior,
-
Not Synced
one Latinx person or one black person,
-
Not Synced
and saying they're
representatives of the groups.
-
Not Synced
That's a racist idea in and of itself.
-
Not Synced
And so I'm talking about groups,
-
Not Synced
and if you believe that groups are equals,
-
Not Synced
then the only other alternative,
-
Not Synced
the only other explanation
to persisting inequity and injustice,
-
Not Synced
is power and policy.
-
Not Synced
And to then spend your time transforming
and challenging power and policy
-
Not Synced
is to spend your time being anti-racist.
-
Not Synced
WPR: So we have some questions
that are coming in from the audience.
-
Not Synced
First one here is from a community member
-
Not Synced
that asks, "When we talk
about white privilege,
-
Not Synced
we talk also about the privilege
not to have the difficult conversations.
-
Not Synced
Do you feel that's starting to change?
-
Not Synced
IXK: I hope so,
-
Not Synced
because I think that white Americans, too,
-
Not Synced
need to simultaneously recognize
-
Not Synced
their privileges,
-
Not Synced
the privileges that they have accrued
-
Not Synced
as a result of their whiteness,
-
Not Synced
and the only way in which
they're going to be able to do that
-
Not Synced
is by initiating and having
these conversations.
-
Not Synced
But then they also should recognize
-
Not Synced
that, yes, they have more,
-
Not Synced
white Americans have more,
-
Not Synced
due to racist policy,
-
Not Synced
but the question I think
white Americans should be having,
-
Not Synced
particularly when they're having
these conversations among themselves,
-
Not Synced
is, if we had a more equitable society,
-
Not Synced
would we have more?
-
Not Synced
Because what I'm asking is that, you know,
-
Not Synced
white Americans have more
because of racism,
-
Not Synced
but there are other groups of people
in other Western democracies
-
Not Synced
who have more than white Americans,
-
Not Synced
and then you start to ask the question,
-
Not Synced
why is it that people in other countries
have free health care?
-
Not Synced
Why is it that they
have paid family leave?
-
Not Synced
Why is it that they have
a massive safety net?
-
Not Synced
Why is it that we do not?
-
Not Synced
And one of the major answers
to why we do not here have is racism.
-
Not Synced
One of the major answers as to why
-
Not Synced
Donald Trump is President
of the United States
-
Not Synced
is racism.
-
Not Synced
And so I'm not really asking
white Americans to be altruistic
-
Not Synced
in order to be anti-racist.
-
Not Synced
We're really asking people
-
Not Synced
to have intelligent self-interest.
-
Not Synced
Those four million, I should say
five million poor whites in 1860
-
Not Synced
whose poverty was the direct result
of the riches of a few thousand
-
Not Synced
white slaveholding families,
-
Not Synced
in order to challenge slavery,
-
Not Synced
we weren't saying, you know,
we need you to be altruistic.
-
Not Synced
No, we actually need you
to do what's in your self-interest.
-
Not Synced
Those tens of millions of Americans,
white Americans, who have lost their jobs
-
Not Synced
as a result of this pandemic,
-
Not Synced
we're not asking them to be altruistic.
-
Not Synced
We're asking them to realize that
if we had a different type of government
-
Not Synced
with a different set of priorities,
-
Not Synced
then they would be
much better off right now.
-
Not Synced
I'm sorry, don't get me started.
-
Not Synced
CS: No, we're grateful. Thank you.
-
Not Synced
And in line with that,
-
Not Synced
obviously these protests and this movement
have led to some progress:
-
Not Synced
the removal of Confederate monuments,
-
Not Synced
the Minneapolis City Council pledging
to dismantle the police department, etc.
-
Not Synced
But what do you view
as the greatest priority
-
Not Synced
on a policy level as this fight
for justice continues?
-
Not Synced
Are there any ways in which
we could learn from other countries?
-
Not Synced
IXK: I don't actually think necessarily
-
Not Synced
there's a singular policy priority.
-
Not Synced
I mean, if someone was
to force me to answer,
-
Not Synced
I would probably say two,
-
Not Synced
and that is,
-
Not Synced
high quality free health care for all,
-
Not Synced
and when I say high quality,
-
Not Synced
I'm not just talking about
Medicare For All,
-
Not Synced
I'm talking about a simultaneous scenario
-
Not Synced
in which in rural southwest Georgia,
-
Not Synced
where the people are predominantly black
-
Not Synced
and have some of the highest
death rates in the country,
-
Not Synced
those counties in southwest Georgia,
-
Not Synced
from COVID,
-
Not Synced
that they would have access to health care
-
Not Synced
as high quality as people do
in Atlanta and New York City,
-
Not Synced
and then, simultaneously,
-
Not Synced
that that health care would be free.
-
Not Synced
So many Americans not only of course
are dying this year of COVID
-
Not Synced
but also of heart disease and cancer,
-
Not Synced
which are the number one killers
before COVID of Americans,
-
Not Synced
and they're disproportionately black.
-
Not Synced
And so I would say that,
-
Not Synced
and then secondarily,
I would say reparations.
-
Not Synced
And many Americans claim
-
Not Synced
that they believe in racial equality,
-
Not Synced
they want to bring about racial equality.
-
Not Synced
Many Americans recognize
just how critical economic livelihood is
-
Not Synced
for every person in this country,
in this economic system.
-
Not Synced
But then many Americans reject
or are not supportive of reparations.
-
Not Synced
And so we have a situation
-
Not Synced
in which white Americans
-
Not Synced
are, last I checked,
-
Not Synced
their median wealth is 10 times
the median wealth of black Americans,
-
Not Synced
and according to a recent study,
-
Not Synced
between now and 2053,
-
Not Synced
white median wealth is projected to grow,
-
Not Synced
and this was before
this current recession,
-
Not Synced
and black median wealth
-
Not Synced
is expected to redline at zero dollars,
-
Not Synced
and that, based on this current recession,
that may be pushed up a decade.
-
Not Synced
And so we not only have
a racial wealth gap,
-
Not Synced
but we have a racial wealth gap
-
Not Synced
that's growing.
-
Not Synced
And so for those Americans who claim
-
Not Synced
they are committed to racial equality
-
Not Synced
who also recognize the importance
of economic livelihood
-
Not Synced
and who also know
that wealth is inherited,
-
Not Synced
and the majority of wealth is inherited,
-
Not Synced
and when you think of the inheritance,
-
Not Synced
you're thinking of past,
-
Not Synced
and the past policies
-
Not Synced
that many Americans consider to be racist,
-
Not Synced
whether it's slavery or even redlining,
-
Not Synced
how would we even begin to close
-
Not Synced
this growing racial wealth gap
-
Not Synced
without a massive program
like reparations?
-
Not Synced
WPR: Well, sort of connected to this idea
of thinking about wealth disparity
-
Not Synced
and wealth inequality in this country,
-
Not Synced
we have a question
from community member Dana Perls.
-
Not Synced
She asks, "How do you suggest
liberal white organizations
-
Not Synced
effectively address problems of racism
within the work environment,
-
Not Synced
particularly in environments where people
remain silent in the face of racism
-
Not Synced
or make token statements
without looking internally?
-
Not Synced
IXK: Sure.
-
Not Synced
And so I would make a few suggestions.
-
Not Synced
One, for several decades now,
-
Not Synced
every workplace has publicly pledged
-
Not Synced
a commitment to diversity.
-
Not Synced
Typically, they have diversity statements.
-
Not Synced
I would basically rip up
those diversity statements
-
Not Synced
and write a new statement,
-
Not Synced
and that's a statement
committed to anti-racism.
-
Not Synced
And in that statement you would
clearly define what a racist idea is,
-
Not Synced
what an anti-racist idea is,
-
Not Synced
what a racist policy is
and what an anti-racist policy is.
-
Not Synced
And you would state as a workplace
that you're committed
-
Not Synced
to having a culture of anti-racist ideas
-
Not Synced
and having an institution
made up of anti-racist policies.
-
Not Synced
And so then everybody
can measure everyone's ideas
-
Not Synced
and the policies of that workplace
based on that document.
-
Not Synced
And I think that that could begin
the process of transformation.
-
Not Synced
I also think it's critically important
-
Not Synced
for workplaces to not only
diversify their staff
-
Not Synced
but diversify their upper administration.
-
Not Synced
And I think that's
absolutely critical as well.
-
Not Synced
CS: We have some more questions
coming in from the audience.
-
Not Synced
We have one from Melissa Mahoney,
-
Not Synced
who is asking, "Donald Trump seems
to be making supporting Black Lives Matter
-
Not Synced
a partisan issue,
-
Not Synced
for example making fun of Mitt Romney
-
Not Synced
for participating in a peaceful protest.
-
Not Synced
How do we uncouple this
to make it nonpartisan?"
-
Not Synced
IXK: Well, I mean, I think that
to say the lives of black people
-
Not Synced
is a Democratic declaration
-
Not Synced
is simultaneously stating
-
Not Synced
that Republicans do not value black life.
-
Not Synced
If that's essentially what Donald Trump
is saying if he's stating,
-
Not Synced
that there's a problem
with marching for black lives,
-
Not Synced
then what is the solution?
-
Not Synced
The solution is not marching.
What's the other alternative?
-
Not Synced
The other alternative
is not marching for black lives.
-
Not Synced
The other alternative is not caring
when black people die of police violence
-
Not Synced
or COVID.
-
Not Synced
And so to me, the way in which
we make this a nonpartisan issue
-
Not Synced
is to strike back
-
Not Synced
or argue back in that way,
-
Not Synced
and obviously Republicans
are going to claim
-
Not Synced
they're not saying that,
-
Not Synced
but it's a very simple thing:
-
Not Synced
either you believe black lives matter
-
Not Synced
or you don't,
-
Not Synced
and if you believe black lives matter
-
Not Synced
because you believe in human rights,
-
Not Synced
then you believe in the human right
for black people and all people to live
-
Not Synced
and to not have to fear police violence
-
Not Synced
and not have to fear the state
-
Not Synced
and not have to fear
that a peaceful protest
-
Not Synced
is going to be broken up
-
Not Synced
because a politician wants
to get a campaign op,
-
Not Synced
then you're going to institute
policy that shows it.
-
Not Synced
Or, you're not.
-
Not Synced
WPR: So I want to ask a question
-
Not Synced
just about how people
can think about anti-racism
-
Not Synced
and how they can actually
bring this into their lives.
-
Not Synced
I imagine that a lot of folks,
-
Not Synced
they hear this and they're like,
-
Not Synced
oh, you know, I have to be
really thoughtful
-
Not Synced
about how my actions and my words
-
Not Synced
are perceived.
-
Not Synced
What is the perceived intention
behind what it is I'm saying,
-
Not Synced
and that that may feel exhausting,
-
Not Synced
and I think that connects
even to this idea of policy.
-
Not Synced
And so I'm curious.
-
Not Synced
There is a huge element of thoughtfulness
-
Not Synced
that comes along
-
Not Synced
with this work of being anti-racist.
-
Not Synced
And what is your reaction and response
to those who feel concerned
-
Not Synced
about the mental exhaustion
with having to constantly think
-
Not Synced
about how your actions
may hurt or harm others?
-
Not Synced
IXK: So I think part of the concern
that people have about mental exhaustion
-
Not Synced
is this idea
-
Not Synced
that they don't ever
want to make a mistake,
-
Not Synced
and I think to be anti-racist
-
Not Synced
is to make mistakes,
-
Not Synced
and is to recognize
when we make a mistake.
-
Not Synced
For us, what's critical
is to have those very clear definitions
-
Not Synced
so that we can assess our words,
-
Not Synced
we can assess our deeds,
-
Not Synced
and when we make a mistake,
we just own up to it and say,
-
Not Synced
you know, that was a racist idea?
-
Not Synced
You know what, I was supporting
a racist policy, but I'm going to change.
-
Not Synced
The other thing I think
is important for us to realize
-
Not Synced
is in many ways
-
Not Synced
we are addicted,
-
Not Synced
and when I say we, individuals
and certainly this country,
-
Not Synced
is addicted to racism,
-
Not Synced
and that's one of the reasons why
-
Not Synced
for so many people
they're just in denial.
-
Not Synced
People usually deny their addictions.
-
Not Synced
But then, once we realize
that we have this addiction,
-
Not Synced
everyone who has been addicted,
-
Not Synced
you know, you talk
to friends and family members
-
Not Synced
who are overcoming an addiction
to substance abuse,
-
Not Synced
they're not going to say
-
Not Synced
that they're just healed,
-
Not Synced
that they don't have
to think about this regularly.
-
Not Synced
Someone who is
overcoming alcoholism
-
Not Synced
is going to say, you know,
this is a day-by-day process,
-
Not Synced
and I take it day by day
-
Not Synced
and moment by moment,
-
Not Synced
and yes, it's difficult
-
Not Synced
to restrain myself
-
Not Synced
from reverting back
to what I'm addicted to,
-
Not Synced
but at the same time it's liberating,
-
Not Synced
it's freeing,
-
Not Synced
because I'm no longer
having to wallow in that addiction.
-
Not Synced
And so I think, and I'm no longer
having to hurt people
-
Not Synced
due to my addiction.
-
Not Synced
And I think that's critical.
-
Not Synced
We spend too much time
thinking about how we feel
-
Not Synced
and less time thinking about how
our actions and ideas make others feel.
-
Not Synced
And I think that's one thing
that the George Floyd video
-
Not Synced
forced Americans to do
-
Not Synced
was to really see and hear, especially,
-
Not Synced
how someone feels
-
Not Synced
as a result of their racism.
-
Not Synced
CS: We have another question
from the audience.
-
Not Synced
This one is asking about,
-
Not Synced
"Can you speak to the intersectionality
-
Not Synced
between the work of anti-racism,
feminism and gay rights?
-
Not Synced
How does the work of anti-racism
relate and affect the work
-
Not Synced
of these other human rights issues?"
-
Not Synced
IXK: Sure.
-
Not Synced
So I define a racist idea
-
Not Synced
as any idea that suggests
a racial group is superior
-
Not Synced
or inferior to another
racial group in any way.
-
Not Synced
And I use the term racial group
-
Not Synced
as opposed to race
-
Not Synced
because every race is a collection
of racialized intersectional groups,
-
Not Synced
and so you have black women and black men
-
Not Synced
and you have black heterosexuals
and black queer people,
-
Not Synced
just as you have Latinx women
and white women and Asian men,
-
Not Synced
and what's critical for us to understand
-
Not Synced
is there hasn't just been racist ideas
-
Not Synced
that have targeted,
let's say, black people.
-
Not Synced
There has been racist ideas
that have been developed
-
Not Synced
and targeted black women,
-
Not Synced
that have targeted black Lesbians,
-
Not Synced
that have targeted
black transgender women.
-
Not Synced
And oftentimes these racist ideas
targeting these intersectional groups
-
Not Synced
are intersecting with
other forms of bigotry
-
Not Synced
that is also targeting these groups.
-
Not Synced
To give an example about black women,
-
Not Synced
one of the oldest racist ideas
about black women
-
Not Synced
was this idea that they're inferior women
-
Not Synced
or that they're not even women at all,
-
Not Synced
and that they're inferior to white women,
-
Not Synced
who are the pinnacle of womenhood.
-
Not Synced
And that idea has intersected
-
Not Synced
with this sexist idea
-
Not Synced
that suggests that women are weak,
-
Not Synced
that the more weak a person is,
a woman is, the more woman she is,
-
Not Synced
and the stronger a woman is,
the more masculine she is.
-
Not Synced
These two ideas have intersected
-
Not Synced
to constantly degrade black women
-
Not Synced
as this idea of the strong,
black masculine woman
-
Not Synced
who is inferior to the weak, white woman.
-
Not Synced
And so the only way
to really understand these constructs
-
Not Synced
of a weak, super-feminine white woman
-
Not Synced
and a strong, hyper-masculine black woman
-
Not Synced
is to understand sexist ideas,
-
Not Synced
is to reject sexist ideas,
-
Not Synced
and I'll say very quickly,
the same goes for the intersection
-
Not Synced
of racism and homophobia,
-
Not Synced
in which black queer people
have been subjected to this idea
-
Not Synced
that they are more hypersexual
-
Not Synced
because there's this idea of queer people
-
Not Synced
as being more hypersexual
than heterosexuals.
-
Not Synced
And so black queer people have been tagged
-
Not Synced
as more hypersexual
than white queer people
-
Not Synced
and black heterosexuals.
-
Not Synced
And you can't really see that
and understand that and reject that
-
Not Synced
if you're not rejecting and understanding
and challenging homophobia too.
-
Not Synced
WPR: And to this point of challenging,
-
Not Synced
we have another question
from Maryam Mohit in our community,
-
Not Synced
who asks, "How do you see cancel culture
and anti-racism interacting.
-
Not Synced
For example, when someone
did something obviously racist in the past
-
Not Synced
and it comes to light?"
-
Not Synced
How do we respond to that?
-
Not Synced
IXK: Wow.
-
Not Synced
So I think it's very, very complex.
-
Not Synced
I do obviously encourage people
to transform themselves,
-
Not Synced
to change, to admit those times
in which they were being racist,
-
Not Synced
and so obviously we as a community
-
Not Synced
have to give people
that ability to do that.
-
Not Synced
We can't, when someone admits
that they were being racist,
-
Not Synced
we can't immediately
obviously cancel them.
-
Not Synced
But I also think
-
Not Synced
that there are people
-
Not Synced
who do something so egregious
-
Not Synced
and there are people who are so unwilling
-
Not Synced
to recognize how egregious
what they just did is,
-
Not Synced
so in a particular moment,
-
Not Synced
so not just the horrible, vicious act,
-
Not Synced
but then on top of that the refusal
to even admit the horrible, vicious act.
-
Not Synced
In that case, I could see how people
would literally want to cancel them,
-
Not Synced
and I think that we have to,
on the other hand,
-
Not Synced
we have to have some sort of consequence,
-
Not Synced
public consequence, cultural consequence,
-
Not Synced
for people acting in a racist manner,
-
Not Synced
especially in an extremely egregious way.
-
Not Synced
And for many people, they've decided,
-
Not Synced
you know what, I'm just
going to cancel folks.
-
Not Synced
And I'm not going
to necessarily critique them,
-
Not Synced
but I do think we should try
to figure out a way
-
Not Synced
to discern those who are refusing
to transform themselves
-
Not Synced
and those who made a mistake
and recognized it
-
Not Synced
and truly are committed
to transforming themselves.
-
Not Synced
CS: Yeah, I mean,
-
Not Synced
one of the concerns many activists
have been expressing
-
Not Synced
is that the energy behind
the Black Lives Matter movement
-
Not Synced
has to stay high
-
Not Synced
for anti-racist change
to truly take place.
-
Not Synced
I think that applies
to what you just said as well.
-
Not Synced
And I guess I'm curious
what your opinion is
-
Not Synced
on when the protests start to wane
-
Not Synced
and people's donation-matching campaigns
fade into the background,
-
Not Synced
how can we all ensure
that this conversation
-
Not Synced
about anti-racism stays central?
-
Not Synced
IXK: Sure.
-
Not Synced
So in "How To Be An Anti-Racist,"
-
Not Synced
in one of the final chapters,
-
Not Synced
is this chapter called "Failure."
-
Not Synced
I talked about what I call
feelings advocacy,
-
Not Synced
and this is people feeling bad
about what's happening,
-
Not Synced
what happened to George Floyd
-
Not Synced
or what happened to Ahmaud Arbery
or what happened to Breonna Taylor.
-
Not Synced
They just feel bad about this country
and where this country is headed.
-
Not Synced
And so the way
they go about feeling better
-
Not Synced
is by coming to a demonstration.
-
Not Synced
The way they go about feeling better
-
Not Synced
is by donating to
a particular organization.
-
Not Synced
The way they go about feeling better
-
Not Synced
is reading a book.
-
Not Synced
And so if this what
many Americans are doing,
-
Not Synced
then once they feel better,
-
Not Synced
in other words once the individual
feels better through their participation
-
Not Synced
in book clubs or demonstrations
-
Not Synced
or donation campaigns,
-
Not Synced
then nothing is going to change
except, what, their own feelings.
-
Not Synced
And so we need to move past our feelings.
-
Not Synced
And this isn't to say
that people shouldn't feel bad,
-
Not Synced
but we should use our feelings,
-
Not Synced
how horrible we feel
about what is going on,
-
Not Synced
to put into place, put into practice,
-
Not Synced
anti-racist power and policies.
-
Not Synced
In other words, our feelings
should be driving us.
-
Not Synced
They shouldn't be the end all.
-
Not Synced
This should not be about
making us feel better.
-
Not Synced
This should be about
transforming this country,
-
Not Synced
and we need to keep our eyes
on transforming this country,
-
Not Synced
because if we don't,
-
Not Synced
then once people feel better
after this is all over,
-
Not Synced
then we'll be back to the same situation
of being horrified by another video,
-
Not Synced
and then feeling bad,
-
Not Synced
and then the cycle will only continue.
-
Not Synced
WPR: You know, I think
when we think about
-
Not Synced
what sort of changes we can implement
-
Not Synced
and how we could
make the system work better,
-
Not Synced
make our governments work better,
-
Not Synced
make our police work better,
-
Not Synced
are there models in other countries
-
Not Synced
where, obviously the history
in the United States is really unique
-
Not Synced
in terms of thinking about
race and oppression.
-
Not Synced
But when you look to other nations
and other cultures,
-
Not Synced
are there other models
that you look at as examples
-
Not Synced
that we could potentially implement here?
-
Not Synced
IXK: I mean, there are so many.
-
Not Synced
There are countries in which
police officers don't wear weapons.
-
Not Synced
There are countries
-
Not Synced
who have more people
than the United States
-
Not Synced
but less prisoners.
-
Not Synced
There are countries
-
Not Synced
who try to fight violent crime
-
Not Synced
not with more police and prisons
-
Not Synced
but with more jobs and more opportunities,
-
Not Synced
because they know and see
that the communities
-
Not Synced
with the highest levels of violent crime
-
Not Synced
tend to be communities
with high levels of poverty
-
Not Synced
and long-term unemployment.
-
Not Synced
And then, obviously,
-
Not Synced
other countries provide pretty sizable
social safety nets for people
-
Not Synced
such that people are not
committing crimes out of poverty,
-
Not Synced
such that people are not
committing crimes out of despair.
-
Not Synced
And so I think that
it's critically important for us
-
Not Synced
to first and foremost
-
Not Synced
think through, OK, if there's
nothing wrong with the people,
-
Not Synced
then how can we go about
reducing police violence?
-
Not Synced
How can we go about
reducing racial health inequities?
-
Not Synced
What policies can we change?
What policies have worked?
-
Not Synced
These are the types of questions
we need to be asking,
-
Not Synced
because there's never really
been anything wrong with the people.
-
Not Synced
CS: In your "Atlantic" piece
-
Not Synced
called "Who Gets To Be
Afraid in America," you wrote,
-
Not Synced
"What I am, a black male,
should not matter.
-
Not Synced
Who I am should matter."
-
Not Synced
And I feel that's kind of
what you're saying,
-
Not Synced
that in other places
maybe that's more possible,
-
Not Synced
and I'm curious when you imagine
-
Not Synced
a country in which
who you are mattered first,
-
Not Synced
what does that look like?
-
Not Synced
IXK: Well, what it looks like
for me as a black American
-
Not Synced
is that people do not view me as dangerous
and thereby make my existence dangerous.
-
Not Synced
It allows me to walk around this country
-
Not Synced
and to not believe that people
are going to fear me
-
Not Synced
because of the color my skin.
-
Not Synced
It allows me to believe, you know what,
-
Not Synced
I didn't get that job because
I could have done better on my interview,
-
Not Synced
not because of the color of my skin.
-
Not Synced
It allows me to --
-
Not Synced
a country where there's racial equity,
-
Not Synced
a country where there's racial justice,
-
Not Synced
a country where there's
shared opportunity,
-
Not Synced
a country where African American culture
and Native American culture
-
Not Synced
and the cultures of Mexican Americans
-
Not Synced
and Korean Americans
are all valued equally,
-
Not Synced
that no one is being asked to assimilate
into white American culture.
-
Not Synced
There's no such thing
as standard professional wear.
-
Not Synced
There's no such thing as, well,
you need to learn how to speak English
-
Not Synced
in order to be an American.
-
Not Synced
And we would truly not only have
equity and justice for all
-
Not Synced
but we would somehow have found a way
-
Not Synced
to appreciate difference,
-
Not Synced
to appreciate all of the human
ethnic and cultural difference
-
Not Synced
that exists in the United States.
-
Not Synced
This is what could make
this country great,
-
Not Synced
in which we literally become a country
-
Not Synced
where you could literally
travel around this country
-
Not Synced
and learn about cultures
from all over the world
-
Not Synced
and appreciate those cultures,
-
Not Synced
and understand even your own culture
-
Not Synced
from what other people are doing.
-
Not Synced
There's so much beauty here
amid all this pain
-
Not Synced
and I just want to peel away
-
Not Synced
and remove away
-
Not Synced
all of those scabs of racist policies
-
Not Synced
so that people can heal
-
Not Synced
and so that we can see true beauty.
-
Not Synced
WPR: And Ibram, when you think
about this moment,
-
Not Synced
where do you see them on [?]
of progress towards reaching
-
Not Synced
that true beauty?
-
Not Synced
IXK: Well, I think, for me,
-
Not Synced
I always see progress
and resistance in demonstrations
-
Not Synced
and know just because people
are calling from town squares
-
Not Synced
and from city halls
-
Not Synced
for progressive, systemic change
that that change is here,
-
Not Synced
but people are calling
-
Not Synced
and people are calling
in small towns, in big cities,
-
Not Synced
and people are calling
from places we've heard of
-
Not Synced
and places we need to have heard of.
-
Not Synced
People are calling for change,
and people are fed up.
-
Not Synced
I mean, we're living in a time
-
Not Synced
in which we're facing a viral pandemic,
-
Not Synced
a racial pandemic
within that viral pandemic
-
Not Synced
of people of color disproportionately
being infected and dying,
-
Not Synced
even an economic pandemic
-
Not Synced
with over 40 million Americans
having lost their jobs,
-
Not Synced
and certainly this pandemic
of police violence,
-
Not Synced
and then people demonstrating
against police violence
-
Not Synced
only to suffer police violence
at demonstrations.
-
Not Synced
I mean, people see
there's a fundamental problem here,
-
Not Synced
and there's a problem that can be solved.
-
Not Synced
There's an America that can be created,
-
Not Synced
and people are calling for this,
-
Not Synced
and that is always the beginning.
-
Not Synced
The beginning is what
we're experiencing now.
-
Not Synced
CS: I think that
this next audience question
-
Not Synced
follows well from that, which is,
-
Not Synced
"What gives you hope right now?"
-
Not Synced
IXK: So certainly resistance to racism
has always given me hope,
-
Not Synced
and so even if, let's say,
-
Not Synced
six months ago we were not in a time
in which almost every night
-
Not Synced
all over this country people
were demonstrating against racism,
-
Not Synced
but I could just look to history
-
Not Synced
when people were resisting.
-
Not Synced
And so resistance always brings me hope,
-
Not Synced
because it is always resistance,
-
Not Synced
and of course it's stormy,
-
Not Synced
but the rainbow is typically
on the other side.
-
Not Synced
But I also receive hope philosophically,
-
Not Synced
because I know that in order
to bring about change,
-
Not Synced
we have to believe in change.
-
Not Synced
There's just no way
a change maker can be cynical.
-
Not Synced
It's impossible.
-
Not Synced
So I know I have to believe in change
-
Not Synced
in order to bring it about.
-
Not Synced
WPR: And we have another question here
-
Not Synced
which addresses some of the things
you talked about before
-
Not Synced
in terms of the structural change
that we need to bring about.
-
Not Synced
From Maryam Mohit: "In terms of putting
into practice the transformative policies,
-
Not Synced
is then the most important thing
to loudly vote the right people
-
Not Synced
into office at every level who can make
those structural changes happen?"
-
Not Synced
IXK: So I think that that is part of it.
-
Not Synced
I certainly think we should
vote into office
-
Not Synced
people who, from school boards
to the President of the United States,
-
Not Synced
people who are committed
-
Not Synced
to instituting anti-racist policies
-
Not Synced
that lead to equity and justice,
-
Not Synced
and I think that
that's critically important,
-
Not Synced
but I don't think
-
Not Synced
that we should think that that's
the only that we should focused on
-
Not Synced
or the only thing that we should be doing.
-
Not Synced
And there are institutions,
-
Not Synced
there are neighborhoods,
-
Not Synced
that need to be transformed,
-
Not Synced
that are to a certain extent
-
Not Synced
outside of the purview of a policymaker
-
Not Synced
who is an elected official.
-
Not Synced
There are administrators
and CEOs and presidents
-
Not Synced
who have the power to transform policies
-
Not Synced
within their spheres,
within their institutions,
-
Not Synced
and so we should be focused there.
-
Not Synced
The last thing I'll say about voting is,
-
Not Synced
I wrote a series of pieces
for "The Atlantic" early this year
-
Not Synced
that sought to get Americans
thinking about who I call
-
Not Synced
"the other swing voter,"
-
Not Synced
and not the traditional swing voter
who swings from Republican to Democrat
-
Not Synced
who are primarily older and white.
-
Not Synced
I'm talking about the people
who swing from voting Democrat
-
Not Synced
to not voting at all.
-
Not Synced
And these people are typically younger
-
Not Synced
and they're typically people of color,
-
Not Synced
but they're especially
young people of color,
-
Not Synced
especially young black
and Latinx Americans.
-
Not Synced
And so we should view these people,
-
Not Synced
these young, black and Latino voters
-
Not Synced
who are trying to decide
whether to vote as swing voters
-
Not Synced
in the way we view these people
-
Not Synced
who are trying to decide between
whether to vote for, let's say,
-
Not Synced
Trump or Biden in the general election.
-
Not Synced
In other words, to view
them both as swing voters
-
Not Synced
is to view them both in a way that,
OK, we need to persuade these people.
-
Not Synced
They're not political cattle.
-
Not Synced
We're not just going to turn them out.
-
Not Synced
We need to encourage and persuade them,
-
Not Synced
and then we also
for these other swing voters
-
Not Synced
need to make it easier for them to vote,
-
Not Synced
and typically these young people of color,
it's the hardest for them to vote
-
Not Synced
because of voter suppression policies.