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J.K. Rowling’s Spiral into Madness (with ContraPoints)

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    Hello, hello and welcome back to A Bit
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    Fruity, the show where we think that you
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    same time that I upload March's deep dive
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    on Patreon, which I do every month
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    and this month it is on the wokeness of
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    Sydney Sweeney. The right just figured
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    out who Sydney Sweeney is because
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    they saw her on SNL and they never watched
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    Euphoria and her being hot is
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    causing a freakout of epic proportions.
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    So we're going to do a little analysis
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    of a woman's body, which is something
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    I'm fairly new to.
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    So, you know, wish me luck.
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    Today we are joined, once again,
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    by someone I'm honored to call a friend
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    of the show, Natalie Wynn, or as you may
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    know her online, ContraPoints is, an
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    ex-philosopher, she is a YouTuber
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    but I think calling her a YouTuber
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    is kind of diminutive to her craft.
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    She puts out a couple feature film-length
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    videos a year that you've probably
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    watched but if you haven't, you really
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    should go check those out.
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    She talks about philosophy, and sex and
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    gender, and capitalism, and Twilight
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    Natalie Wynn welcome back to A Bit Fruity.
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    Thank you much for having me back on
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    I am excited to be here again.
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    I'm honored to be a friend of the show.
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    I'm honored to have you as a friend
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    of the show. So, a couple weeks ago
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    J.K. Rowling, she got caught up in a
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    little Holocaust denial.
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    She does Holocaust denial a little from
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    time to time, (laughter) yeah.
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    It wasn't always this way. J.K. Rowling
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    wasn't always on Twitter denying
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    that, uh, queer people were persecuted in
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    the Holocaust. Until 2019, J.K. Rowling
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    was a universally beloved children's
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    author who taught every kid that there
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    was magic inside of them no matter how
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    cast out they may feel. Today, though,
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    how would you characterize her position
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    in the culture today?
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    Well, her position in the culture is
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    kind of weirdly split, right, cause on
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    the one hand, there is her continuing
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    legacy as the author of the wizard books
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    and on the other hand, there's like
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    almost her entire public persona, that
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    we mostly experience through Twitter
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    which is basically obsessive bigotry
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    towards trans people. That's become
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    sort of her definitive thing, right?
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    I think that people who don't follow this
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    kind of don't understand the extent of it
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    because, you know, I don't know, people
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    throw around like all kinds of accusations
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    on Twitter, so it's easy to think that
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    this is some kind of internet drama
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    blown out of proportion. But, what you're
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    missing is that if you have not been
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    paying attention to J.K. Rowling's Twitter
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    for the last, at this point, we're
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    talking about four or five years, which
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    is a long time. Like, she's basically used
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    her platform more often than not to do
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    trans-bashing. There's a reason why that
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    this gets talked about so much because,
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    I mean, she's one of the most famous
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    authors in the world with an enormous
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    platform, and she's just using it
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    constantly to target this small and,
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    like, already besieged, minority of people
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    who are facing, like, all kinds of, like,
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    legislative and cultural backlash in
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    the U.S. and the U.K. So it's like really
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    devastating (chuckle) that an author
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    that, that's this influential is also,
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    like, this obsessively devoted to
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    persecute, you know, to contributing
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    to the persecution of this group of
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    people, who's already so harassed.
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    But it's also, I don't know, it's also
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    kind of a bizarre spectacle, like, in
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    it's own right it's kind of like another
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    reason I feel like we're drawn to this
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    maybe, is that it's kind of like darkly
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    fascinating. How does this happen?
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    Like, how do we go from, like, the
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    Gryffindor common room and, you know,
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    Severus Snape, to, like, these unhinged
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    rants about the transexuals. It's weird.
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    It, it is weird and I think also, I mean,
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    yeah, if you go to J.K. Rowling's Twitter
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    right now and scroll through her feed,
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    it is literal years of talking every
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    single day, almost exclusively, about
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    transgender people, for years.
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    Which I think is the type of behavior
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    we associate, with like boomer facebook
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    moms, and then I guess in a sense, she
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    kind of would have been that, if she
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    hadn't become a billionaire and one of
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    the most famous and beloved children's
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    authors of all time. But she is those
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    things and the idea of her behaving the
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    way, like, our homophobic aunt does
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    or whatever, but like from some castle
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    in the U.K., is just like a very jarring
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    image. (Natalie) I think that summarizes
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    it really well, right, like, it is, like,
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    your bigoted aunts deranged Facebook post
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    except on a platform with millions of
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    people as the audience. I feel like we
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    as a society, have, like, yet to know how
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    to deal with this type of thing cause
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    J.K. Rowling's not the only case of it.
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    I mean, like, Elon Musk has dabbled
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    a little bit in some similar forms of
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    bigotry with a comparable or even
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    larger platform. But I feel like what's
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    unique about J.K. Rowling is that
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    she's, like, single mindedly focused on
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    trans people as this one issue.
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    (Matt) So she wasn't always this way
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    though, and what we're gonna do today
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    is use J.K. Rowling as what I think is
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    a valuable case study in the worm hole
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    that transphobia is. The way that it
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    can serve as it has for J.K. Rowling
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    and so many millions of other people
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    as a portal into the broader world
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    of right-wing ideology that gets pretty
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    scary pretty quickly. We're gonna
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    try to understand why transphobia, and
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    I think especially when it's cloaked,
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    no pun intended, as a progressive
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    feminist cause and especially effective
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    gateway into the alt right. One day
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    you're reminding people that you
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    just like to be referred to as a woman
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    and that you are a woman and then,
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    you know, the next day you are
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    participating in Holocaust denial. It can
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    happen to you. (Natalie) Many such cases.
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    (Matt) Many such cases. And so, to begin
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    this story I wanna go back to 2019
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    to the first tweet that I remember
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    seeing of J.K. Rowling's, her foray into
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    the anti-trans movement, which at the
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    beginning was very tepid. I am going to
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    send you the tweet. (Natalie) "Dress
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    however you please. Call yourself
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    whatever you like. Sleep with any
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    consenting adult who'll have you.
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    Live your best life in peace and security.
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    But force women out of their jobs for
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    stating that sex is real? Hashtag I
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    stand with Maya. Hashtag this is not
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    a drill." (Matt) So what was the
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    context of this one?
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    (Natalie) So, the context is that there
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    was a English consultant named
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    Maya Forstater who, I guess she wasn't
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    fired but her contract was not
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    renewed because she had, like, refused
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    to use the correct pronouns for a trans
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    coworker or something along those lines.
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    And a lot of so called "gender-critical",
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    that is "transphobic", people in the U.K.
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    decided to turn this into a celebrated
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    cause, they, you know, rallied behind
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    this hashtag "I stand with maya".
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    The idea being, like, "oh, we shouldn't
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    have to submit to gender ideology by,
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    you know, using the correct pronouns
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    for trans people in the work place or
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    whatever. This is where J.K. Rowling
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    decided to join this discourse
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    officially. She decided to jump in on
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    the side of people who think that it's
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    terribly oppressive to have to use
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    the correct pronouns for a trans person.
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    And I guess at first, you know, there was
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    some ambiguity because you could be
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    like, "Well she's not transphobic. Maybe
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    she just believes in free speech, and she
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    thinks that, you know, that people
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    shouldn't be fired for having different
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    opinions." And like okay, like, at
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    first you could sort of plausibly think
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    that maybe, given the benefit of the
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    doubt, that's why she was getting
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    involved in this. But, like, to people who
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    kind of know the pattern that
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    transphobia takes place, we all pretty
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    much knew that, "Oh, okay she really
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    is transphobic behind the scenes".
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    Like, there is no way that you would
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    -go decide to die on this hill unless
    - Matt: Hmm.
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    you already were. At least that's what I
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    think now. I mean, I think J.K. Rowling
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    was at her most dangerous in 2019 and
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    in 2020 because of the stuff she was
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    saying seems kind of plausible and
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    reasonable to the average person, you
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    know. And so, there's this kind of like
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    clever selection of which topics to
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    get behind, right, instead of just,
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    I don't know, calling trans women "men"
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    in dresses, or whatever, it's like she's
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    defending the "right" of people to not
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    use the correct pronouns if they don't
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    agree, right? These people
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    kind of hedge in this way, like, when
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    they have a kind of like bigoted opinion
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    instead of just stating it out, right.
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    They sort of defend their right to have
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    -that opinion.
    - Matt: Mhmm.
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    So, that was very much with this thing
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    with Maya Forstater is, right. It's like
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    she's not saying something sort of
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    directly transphobic, but she is kind of
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    indirectly getting there by being like,
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    "I am going to publicly champion Maya's
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    right to be transphobic. "
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    (Matt) I feel like in the early days
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    she did so much of this plausible,
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    deniability stuff where it's like, you
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    know, "I'm just saying sex is real".
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    Right? And the average person who
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    isn't, like, a terminally online queer
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    is going to be like, "Yeah, sex is real,
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    whatever, like, who cares."
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    You know? It's like not a big deal.
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    (Natalie) Yeah, she was very effective
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    early on at kind of like deciding what
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    it was that she thought people
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    were mad about, right? And so she
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    framed the conversation, "Oh here's why
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    I'm getting backlashed. I'm getting
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    backlash because I said quote on quote
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    'sex is real'. And so, it kind of seems
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    like if you believe her account of what
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    people are mad about, then it sounds like
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    everyone whose mad is unreasonable
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    because they are mad at her for taking
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    this kind of - taking what? An abstract,
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    philosophical position about the
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    metaphysics of biological sex? Like,
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    is that what people are mad about?
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    No, right? It's of course not that
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    because she is intervening in this
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    social and political debate, right,
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    on the side that wants trans people
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    functionally not to exist in public
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    life, or not to be acknowledged in
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    public life. So, that is what people
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    are mad about, right? But early on,
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    I think she was able to kind of
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    frame her position as being this
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    like, I don't know, almost philosophical
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    position about the reality of sex or
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    something, you know? That is what she
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    wanted to make it sound like instead of
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    a political position about the place of
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    transgender people in society.
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    When you first saw that tweet were, like,
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    alarm bells ringing?
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    Oh, absolutely. I mean, at that point
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    I was like, yeah I basically internally
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    thought there was like a nine
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    hundred and ninety-nine out of
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    one thousand percent chance that
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    -it's, as people say, over, right?
    -Matt: (laughter) Right
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    It's so over, right? Like I already
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    basically already kind of knew that.
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    But I also kind of knew that, like,
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    well, most people aren't gonna notice
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    that it's over until she says something
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    more explicit.
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    Until she's doing Holocaust denial.
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    Yeah, until she's doing Holocaust denial,
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    exactly. But, of course, I've seen
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    enough people who kind of start this way
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    with this flirtation with bigotry where
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    stage one is usually like, "Well I
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    support the right for people to be bigots"
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    Like, I don't like that there's this,
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    like, cancel culture, whatever politically
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    correct - you can't say anything anymore.
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    Like, that's usually the prelude to a
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    bunch of bigoted stuff. It's kind of
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    like a softer way of getting a foot
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    in the door. Like, you're not necessarily
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    committing yourself to saying anything
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    bigoted. But you'll stand up for the right
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    of people to say that and you don't
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    like how, you know, how vicious people
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    are being towards people who are getting
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    criticized for saying more bigoted things.
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    In retrospect, it's clear that she's
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    preparing the way to be the one saying
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    those bigoted things herself.
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    For a while longer, well into 2020,
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    she, like, continues this road of
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    like, "sex is real". And so I'm going to
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    send you another thread.
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    It's funny how I know all of these
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    -like, by heart practically
    -Matt: Oh (laughter)
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    -It's like song lyrics (laughter)
    -Natalie: Right? I'm a scholar
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    -of the things she has said about
    -Matt: (laughing)
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    trans people, right? Like, "Ah yes,
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    -tweet seven, verse three".
    -Matt: (wheezes)
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    I know, cause, like, we've read these
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    -f***ing tweets so many times
    -Natalie: I know,
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    the last four years has been
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    dominated by having to read these
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    terrible opinions again and again.
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    This is, honestly, no one should be
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    allowed to get this famous. It's too
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    dangerous.
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    (laughter)
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    Okay, but for the normal people listening
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    who aren't so online, do you want to read
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    what she tweeted on June 6, I believe,
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    2020?
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    (Natalie) Dear normal people, this is me
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    reading from the book of Rowling,
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    chapter six (laughter).
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    Quote, "If sex isn't real, there's no
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    same-sex attraction. If sex isn't real,
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    the lived reality of women globally
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    is erased. I know and love trans people,
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    but erasing the concept of sex removes
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    the ability of many to meaningfully
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    discuss their lives. It isn't hate to
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    speak the truth."
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    Tweet two, "The idea that women like me,
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    who've been empathetic to trans people
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    for decades, feeling kinship because
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    they're vulnerable in the same way
  • 13:16 - 13:18
    as women - ie. to male violence - 'hate'
  • 13:18 - 13:20
    trans people because they think sex is
  • 13:20 - 13:22
    real and has lived consequences -
  • 13:22 - 13:24
    (English Accent): it is a nonsense."
  • 13:24 - 13:27
    -Natalie: Sorry, (inaudible) I feel I
    -Matt: (laughter)
  • 13:27 - 13:29
    cannot say, "is a nonsense" without doing
  • 13:29 - 13:31
    -it in an English accent.
    -Matt: (laughing)
  • 13:31 - 13:33
    (Natalie) I'm gonna switch to
  • 13:33 - 13:35
    doing an English accent for the last
  • 13:35 - 13:37
    one because I feel like, I just feel like
  • 13:37 - 13:38
    (English) "I respect every trans person's
  • 13:38 - 13:40
    right to live any way that feels
  • 13:40 - 13:42
    authentic and comfortable to them.
  • 13:42 - 13:44
    I'd march with you if you were
  • 13:44 - 13:45
    discriminated against on the basis
  • 13:45 - 13:47
    of being trans. At the same time, my
  • 13:47 - 13:49
    life has been shaped by being female.
  • 13:49 - 13:51
    I do not believe it's hateful to say so."
  • 13:51 - 13:53
    (Matt) "I'd march with you if you were
  • 13:53 - 13:54
    being discriminated against."
  • 13:54 - 13:56
    (Natalie) Yeah, that's a big, big red
  • 13:56 - 13:58
    flag, right? And this was, like, the
  • 13:58 - 14:00
    same month that the U.S., like, Donald
  • 14:00 - 14:01
    Trump had, like, announced, like, an
  • 14:01 - 14:03
    intention to, like, ban trans healthcare.
  • 14:03 - 14:04
    (Matt) Yes.
  • 14:04 - 14:06
    The notion that, like, discrimination
  • 14:06 - 14:08
    against trans people is this, like,
  • 14:08 - 14:10
    hypothetical thing that might occur in
  • 14:10 - 14:11
    the future, right?
  • 14:11 - 14:13
    If ever there was a trans person who
  • 14:13 - 14:15
    faced bigotry on the basis of their
  • 14:15 - 14:17
    identity, I would stand up for them. But
  • 14:17 - 14:19
    that hasn't happened yet. So, I'm just
  • 14:19 - 14:21
    -not, I'm not standing up
    -(Natalie) Yeah, right.
  • 14:21 - 14:23
    No one's ever been discriminated against
  • 14:23 - 14:25
    for being trans. But, like, if it does
  • 14:25 - 14:26
    happen, I'll march with you.
  • 14:26 - 14:28
    But, okay, first of all, by the way, these
  • 14:28 - 14:30
    tweets got hundreds of thousands of likes
  • 14:30 - 14:32
    - and people were like,
    - Natalie: Yes.
  • 14:32 - 14:34
    "Yes! You're a warrior!" But it's like
  • 14:34 - 14:36
    again, a normal person who isn't super
  • 14:36 - 14:38
    online, and, I mean, you know, from
  • 14:38 - 14:39
    the queer and pro-trans end, but also
  • 14:39 - 14:41
    from, like, the super TERF-y
    anti-trans end.
  • 14:41 - 14:43
    Like if you aren't a part of either of
  • 14:43 - 14:45
    those groups, you're reading this
  • 14:45 - 14:47
    and are like, "What the f*** is she
  • 14:47 - 14:49
    talking about? Like what is this 'sex
  • 14:49 - 14:51
    is real' thing?" Like, what is she
  • 14:51 - 14:52
    talking about?
  • 14:52 - 14:54
    It's a weird argument, right? Because
  • 14:54 - 14:56
    it seems on the surface like it's a
  • 14:56 - 14:58
    linguistic point that she's trying to
  • 14:58 - 15:00
    make, right? There's this idea, like she
  • 15:00 - 15:02
    says, quote, "If we get rid of the
  • 15:02 - 15:03
    concept of sex that removes the
  • 15:03 - 15:05
    ability of many to discuss their lives."
  • 15:05 - 15:07
    Okay, this is what I think the assumption
  • 15:07 - 15:10
    is: it's, like, if we acknowledge that
  • 15:10 - 15:12
    trans people are who they say they
  • 15:12 - 15:14
    are, then that means that none of
  • 15:14 - 15:17
    the rest of us can talk about how gender
  • 15:17 - 15:19
    has impacted our lives, right? In other
  • 15:19 - 15:21
    words, think of if a trans woman,
    is a woman, then
  • 15:21 - 15:23
    I guess, you know, "I, J.K,. Rowling, can
  • 15:23 - 15:25
    never talk about the way that I have
  • 15:25 - 15:27
    been discriminated against for being
  • 15:27 - 15:29
    a woman." I mean, it's a little bit of an
  • 15:29 - 15:30
    oppression olympics almost kind of
  • 15:30 - 15:32
    - argument, where it's like
    - Matt: Mmm
  • 15:32 - 15:34
    there can only be one oppressed group,
  • 15:34 - 15:36
    right? And if we talk about how, you
  • 15:36 - 15:38
    know, there's no way to include trans
  • 15:38 - 15:40
    people as a valid concept without sort of
  • 15:40 - 15:43
    somehow, like, deleting or erasing the
  • 15:43 - 15:45
    entire concept of women. Which, I mean,
  • 15:45 - 15:47
    it doesn't make any sense, right?
  • 15:47 - 15:49
    In fact, J.K. Rowling will later use as
  • 15:49 - 15:52
    an example. Okay what does it mean to
  • 15:52 - 15:54
    "erase women"? I mean, well, okay, so
  • 15:54 - 15:55
    she'll use the example of, like, okay,
  • 15:55 - 15:57
    some hospital somewhere, on a piece of
  • 15:57 - 15:59
    paperwork says, uses the term "pregnant
  • 15:59 - 16:01
    person" instead of "pregnant woman".
  • 16:01 - 16:04
    Why? Because there is transgender men who
  • 16:04 - 16:06
    can and have gotten pregnant. And so,
  • 16:06 - 16:09
    saying "pregnant people" is a more, like,
  • 16:09 - 16:11
    even if you find that to be an awkward
  • 16:11 - 16:13
    phrase, like, it's still a more inclusive
  • 16:13 - 16:16
    phrase that is going to help trans men
  • 16:16 - 16:18
    who need reproductive healthcare
  • 16:18 - 16:21
    that, you know, conventionally would be
  • 16:21 - 16:23
    "women's health", right? I just don't
  • 16:23 - 16:25
    understand why making it inclusive to
  • 16:25 - 16:28
    transgender men somehow, like, deletes
  • 16:28 - 16:30
    the concept of women from existence.
  • 16:30 - 16:33
    Like, (stammers) it just doesn't make
  • 16:33 - 16:35
    any sense to me. I feel like it's, like,
  • 16:35 - 16:38
    a weird pretext for being prejudicial.
  • 16:38 - 16:40
    -It's just such a lie. I mean, you see
    -Natalie: Yeah.
  • 16:40 - 16:42
    this a lot with TERF's trans
  • 16:42 - 16:44
    exclusionary radical feminists. It's like
  • 16:44 - 16:46
    the arm of quote on quote, "feminism"
  • 16:46 - 16:48
    that is basically just defined by
  • 16:48 - 16:51
    transphobia. Especially towards trans
  • 16:51 - 16:52
    women.
  • 16:52 - 16:53
    Yeah, I don't even know if I would say
  • 16:53 - 16:55
    that it's especially towards trans women.
  • 16:55 - 16:57
    I would say that there is especially
  • 16:57 - 16:59
    vitriolic towards trans women
  • 16:59 - 17:00
    - and they kind of vilify.
    - Matt: Mmm
  • 17:00 - 17:02
    Trans women are sort of cast as, like,
  • 17:02 - 17:04
    dangerous predators. But trans men, I
  • 17:04 - 17:07
    feel like, the way that a lot of, like,
  • 17:07 - 17:09
    including J.K. Rowling, like, talk about
  • 17:09 - 17:10
    trans men as a quite reprehensible I
  • 17:10 - 17:13
    - think, too. Like, usually the idea
    - Matt: Mmm
  • 17:13 - 17:15
    is, like, trans men are like confused
  • 17:15 - 17:16
    girls who've been tricked by, like, the
  • 17:16 - 17:18
    medical establishment, like, the evil
  • 17:18 - 17:20
    cabal of endocrinologist who have, like,
  • 17:20 - 17:24
    somehow, like, hoodwinked vulnerable girls
  • 17:24 - 17:26
    into thinking that they're men. Which, of
  • 17:26 - 17:28
    course, is not how the healthcare system
  • 17:28 - 17:29
    works at all. Like, you really have to
  • 17:29 - 17:31
    scream and cry to get hormones. Like, no
  • 17:31 - 17:33
    one is persuading you to do this. In
  • 17:33 - 17:35
    fact, quite the opposite. Everyone is
  • 17:35 - 17:37
    telling you not to. So, the idea that
  • 17:37 - 17:40
    trans men or that any kind of assigned
  • 17:40 - 17:42
    female at birth trans person is this sort
  • 17:42 - 17:45
    of confused, vulnerable baby child. Like,
  • 17:45 - 17:48
    it's not vilification to the extent that
  • 17:48 - 17:51
    they've vilified trans women as dangerous
  • 17:51 - 17:53
    predators, but it's in infantilizing in a
  • 17:53 - 17:57
    way that I think can be just as harmful
  • 17:57 - 17:59
    in its consequences, right? When someone
  • 17:59 - 18:01
    says, "Oh, you can't make decisions about
  • 18:01 - 18:03
    your own body because you're too confused
  • 18:03 - 18:06
    and childish." Like, you know, that has
  • 18:06 - 18:07
    devastating consequences which we see.
  • 18:07 - 18:10
    Any feminist should be aware of how this
  • 18:10 - 18:12
    works cause this is what they say about
  • 18:12 - 18:13
    abortion; it's what they about
  • 18:13 - 18:15
    contraception; it's what they say about
  • 18:15 - 18:17
    women's health in general. "Shut up,
  • 18:17 - 18:19
    little girl," right, "You can't make
  • 18:19 - 18:21
    decisions about your body. We'll do it
  • 18:21 - 18:23
    for you." It's exactly the same thing J.K.
  • 18:23 - 18:25
    Rowling is essentially saying to trans
  • 18:25 - 18:26
    men.
  • 18:26 - 18:27
    TERFS especially towards trans men
  • 18:27 - 18:29
    do this like, "We're losing our lesbians.
  • 18:29 - 18:31
    They're all becoming trans men thing."
  • 18:31 - 18:33
    Which that as a refrain, I just don't
  • 18:33 - 18:34
    understand at all because, like,
  • 18:34 - 18:36
    statistically when you look at, like,
  • 18:36 - 18:38
    the number of gen Z people who are
  • 18:38 - 18:40
    coming out as queer, under every single
  • 18:40 - 18:42
    one of the letters, it's higher in all
  • 18:42 - 18:43
    of them.
    -(Natalie) Right.
  • 18:43 - 18:45
    Like there are more out lesbians today
  • 18:45 - 18:46
    than there have ever been.
  • 18:46 - 18:49
    (stammers) Yes, there's never been more
  • 18:49 - 18:52
    -lesbians, like, yeah
    - Matt: Theres- (laughs) And to be clear
  • 18:52 - 18:53
    I love that (laughs)
  • 18:53 - 18:55
    Yeah it's good, it's good actually, yeah.
  • 18:55 - 18:57
    No, I mean, I feel like it comes from,
  • 18:57 - 18:59
    it's like a very, like, selfish, like,
  • 18:59 - 19:01
    childish perspective. It's almost like,
  • 19:01 - 19:03
    "No don't transition, you're so sexy aha,"
  • 19:03 - 19:06
    - you know? Like, I feel like, thats kind
    - Matt: Yeah (laughs)
  • 19:06 - 19:08
    of, like, (stammers) and some gay women
  • 19:08 - 19:10
    do say this about trans men. Like,
  • 19:10 - 19:11
    "No, all the butch women are
  • 19:11 - 19:13
    transitioning, like, I wanted to f***
  • 19:13 - 19:15
    them before, no!" And it's like, okay,
  • 19:15 - 19:16
    well, too bad, like (scoffs) other people
  • 19:16 - 19:18
    don't have to live their lives in
  • 19:18 - 19:20
    accordance with what you find sexually
  • 19:20 - 19:22
    attractive. Like, again, as a woman
  • 19:22 - 19:24
    (stammers) you should know this, right?
  • 19:24 - 19:26
    - you should know that what you're
    - Matt: Yeah
  • 19:26 - 19:28
    doing, what you're speaking about someone
  • 19:28 - 19:30
    as if your sexual attraction to them
  • 19:30 - 19:32
    entitles you to their living a certain
  • 19:32 - 19:33
    way. You should know why that's bad and
  • 19:33 - 19:36
    why that feels violating and why that robs
  • 19:36 - 19:37
    someone of autonomy, right?
  • 19:37 - 19:39
    And with TERFs and this whole thing of,
  • 19:39 - 19:41
    like, "they're erasing the linguistic
  • 19:41 - 19:44
    concept of a woman." It's like (sighs)
  • 19:44 - 19:47
    - what world do you have to live in
    - (Natalie) Yeah.
  • 19:47 - 19:49
    for that to feel like the truth? And
  • 19:49 - 19:51
    look, I'm not a woman. And so, sometimes
  • 19:51 - 19:53
    with these conversations I'm very careful
  • 19:53 - 19:55
    about, like, even J.K. Rowling, a woman
  • 19:55 - 19:57
    who I disagree with entirely on so many
  • 19:57 - 19:59
    of these issues, it's like, I don't wanna
  • 19:59 - 20:03
    police her understanding of her own trauma
  • 20:03 - 20:05
    - as it pretence to being a woman.
    - (Natalie) Yeah.
  • 20:05 - 20:08
    However, I still, like, we all live in
  • 20:08 - 20:10
    the same society, and it's like, I'm
  • 20:10 - 20:13
    just very hard pressed to think that the
  • 20:13 - 20:16
    word "woman" is going anywhere.
  • 20:16 - 20:17
    (Natalie scoffs)
  • 20:17 - 20:19
    It's like, I don't think that, because on
  • 20:19 - 20:21
    some, like, in some medical papers that
  • 20:21 - 20:23
    are being published, that they're using
  • 20:23 - 20:25
    the terms "people who get pregnant,"
  • 20:25 - 20:27
    "people have periods," I don't think
  • 20:27 - 20:29
    that means that, like, they're gonna start
  • 20:29 - 20:32
    calling you in casual conversation
  • 20:32 - 20:33
    "a person who menstruates."
  • 20:33 - 20:35
    No. And no one talks like that way.
  • 20:35 - 20:37
    I've never heard of a trans person
  • 20:37 - 20:39
    casually refer to cis woman as
  • 20:39 - 20:40
    "people who menstruate." Because the
  • 20:40 - 20:42
    entire point of that term is that it
  • 20:42 - 20:44
    doesn't just refer to cis women.
  • 20:44 - 20:46
    There are people who have a sort of
  • 20:46 - 20:48
    visceral reaction to it, which I
  • 20:48 - 20:50
    guess I can kind of understand. Like,
  • 20:50 - 20:52
    I think if you were to make, like, an
  • 20:52 - 20:53
    intelligible, like, understandable
  • 20:53 - 20:55
    argument out of what J.K. Rowling seems
  • 20:55 - 20:57
    to be saying in these tweets, I mean I
  • 20:57 - 20:59
    think you could put it like this,
  • 20:59 - 21:01
    "For most women, the way that they are
  • 21:01 - 21:03
    oppressed in society is in fact
  • 21:03 - 21:05
    intertwined with biology," right? With
  • 21:05 - 21:08
    women's reproductive role, as most women
  • 21:08 - 21:10
    are capable of getting pregnant. And
  • 21:10 - 21:12
    that becomes a area where women's lives
  • 21:12 - 21:14
    are policed, right? It's interesting how
  • 21:14 - 21:16
    J.K. Rowling never talks about this,
  • 21:16 - 21:18
    - right? Not a word, not a word
    - Matt: Mhmm
  • 21:18 - 21:19
    about Roe v Wade being overturned
  • 21:19 - 21:21
    in the United States. For most women,
  • 21:21 - 21:24
    biology and misogyny, they certainly are
  • 21:24 - 21:26
    - intertwined. And there's a case to be
    - Matt: Yeah.
  • 21:26 - 21:28
    made that anyone who's assigned
  • 21:28 - 21:30
    female at birth does sort of belong
  • 21:30 - 21:32
    to a oppressed class by virtue of
  • 21:32 - 21:36
    their reproductive capability. Especially,
  • 21:36 - 21:38
    like, you know, the sensitivity around,
  • 21:38 - 21:39
    like, you know, "saying people who
  • 21:39 - 21:41
    menstruate" or "people who give birth."
  • 21:41 - 21:43
    I feel like if you hear those phrases in
  • 21:43 - 21:45
    isolation, they kind of, like, can be
  • 21:45 - 21:47
    abrasive sounding because there's,
  • 21:47 - 21:49
    like, a lot of shame and stigma, there
  • 21:49 - 21:50
    have for thousands of years around
  • 21:50 - 21:52
    menstruation and, you know, women
  • 21:52 - 21:54
    often are kind of reduced by patriarchy
  • 21:54 - 21:56
    to, like, birthing people in a sense,
  • 21:56 - 21:58
    right? So, I feel like that there's, like,
  • 21:58 - 22:00
    some grain of something I can sympathize
  • 22:00 - 22:02
    with her in terms of having a visceral,
  • 22:02 - 22:04
    negative reaction to these phrases.
  • 22:04 - 22:06
    But I feel like anyone who takes a second
  • 22:06 - 22:08
    to cool down, understand the context
  • 22:08 - 22:10
    of the phrase, will see
    that's, like, clearly
  • 22:10 - 22:12
    not the intention. They know that it's
  • 22:12 - 22:14
    going to have an emotional effect for a
  • 22:14 - 22:16
    - lot of women to see those phrases.
    - Matt: Mhmm
  • 22:16 - 22:18
    And so, they kind of decontextualize it
  • 22:18 - 22:20
    and blast it onto Twitter with, like,
  • 22:20 - 22:21
    a kind of vague implication that,
  • 22:21 - 22:23
    "Oh, this is what they are going to
  • 22:23 - 22:25
    reduce you to," and, like, "they" is who?
  • 22:25 - 22:27
    "They" is quote on quote trans ideology.
  • 22:27 - 22:30
    Which is sort of vaguely implied to be
  • 22:30 - 22:31
    this, like, powerful cabal.
  • 22:31 - 22:33
    (laughs) Right, which is also incredible
  • 22:33 - 22:36
    because in real life it's like people
  • 22:36 - 22:38
    with a hundred followers on Twitter.
  • 22:38 - 22:40
    Yes, right! It's like you're being yelled
  • 22:40 - 22:42
    at by, like, random, like, furries.
  • 22:42 - 22:44
    (laughing)
  • 22:44 - 22:48
    J.K. Rowling, she does fixate heavily on
  • 22:48 - 22:52
    her own perceived persecution by trans
  • 22:52 - 22:54
    people on Twitter. J.K. Rowling often
  • 22:54 - 22:57
    gets into these, like, feuds, like very
  • 22:57 - 22:59
    public feuds that she- actually I wanna
  • 22:59 - 23:01
    google how many followers she has on
  • 23:01 - 23:03
    Twitter. J.K. Rowling... Do you know
  • 23:03 - 23:04
    the number by heart?
  • 23:04 - 23:06
    I mean, I think it used to be like
  • 23:06 - 23:07
    fourteen million.
  • 23:07 - 23:08
    Oh! It's fourteen million.
  • 23:08 - 23:10
    I hate that I know this.
  • 23:10 - 23:11
    (laughter) Me too.
  • 23:11 - 23:13
    I don't want these stocks in my head.
  • 23:13 - 23:16
    J.K. Rowling, to her fourteen million
  • 23:16 - 23:19
    followers, she, like, regularly puts these
  • 23:19 - 23:22
    random a**, people on blast, and it's
  • 23:22 - 23:24
    like, I don't know, I have, what? I have
  • 23:24 - 23:26
    four hundred thousand Twitter followers,
  • 23:26 - 23:28
    which is, by the way, too many for a
    twink.
  • 23:28 - 23:31
    But, none the less, it's like, lots
  • 23:31 - 23:33
    of horrible people say horrible things
  • 23:33 - 23:35
    to me on the internet. You have to
  • 23:35 - 23:37
    be aware of the power dynamic of, like,
  • 23:37 - 23:39
    when you have fourteen million followers.
  • 23:39 - 23:41
    [Natalie]
    I feel like it was missing from J.K.
  • 23:41 - 23:43
    Rowling's discussion of how she's, like,
  • 23:43 - 23:45
    victimized by social media, is any
  • 23:45 - 23:47
    understanding of power, and I think
  • 23:47 - 23:50
    that a key thing that is going on with
  • 23:50 - 23:52
    J.K. Rowling is that she doesn't
  • 23:52 - 23:54
    conceptualize herself as a powerful
  • 23:54 - 23:56
    person. I mean, and this is common,
  • 23:56 - 23:58
    right? Cause, you know, most people
  • 23:58 - 24:00
    kind of think of themselves as, like,
  • 24:00 - 24:03
    heroic underdogs, I feel, because, I
  • 24:03 - 24:05
    don't know, you got bullied as a child,
  • 24:05 - 24:06
    you got, you know, (stutters) right,
  • 24:06 - 24:08
    like, in J.K. Rowling's case, like, she
  • 24:08 - 24:12
    used to live in relative poverty. She was
  • 24:12 - 24:15
    a single mom, she fled a, you know, a
  • 24:15 - 24:17
    abusive relationship. And so, I still
  • 24:17 - 24:19
    think in a way she kind of thinks of
  • 24:19 - 24:22
    herself as this, like, small, like, scared
  • 24:22 - 24:23
    person, like, on the run.
  • 24:23 - 24:24
    Mmmm
  • 24:24 - 24:26
    I mean, she's had, like, twenty-five years
  • 24:26 - 24:28
    to, like, catch up to the new reality,
  • 24:28 - 24:30
    but I feel like internally she still
  • 24:30 - 24:32
    hasn't, right? I think it's hard for a
  • 24:32 - 24:34
    lot of people to make this switch where
  • 24:34 - 24:37
    you realize, "Oh, I am the big fish now,"
  • 24:37 - 24:39
    right? Like, "I am the one who has power."
  • 24:39 - 24:41
    And I think that, I mean a lot of what
  • 24:41 - 24:44
    privilege is is a kind of blindness
  • 24:44 - 24:47
    to your own power. She hasn't noticed that
  • 24:47 - 24:49
    she's extremely powerful and influential.
  • 24:49 - 24:51
    So, it hasn't occurred to her that, like,
  • 24:51 - 24:54
    I don't know, going after some random
  • 24:54 - 24:55
    YouTuber with a hundred, you know,
  • 24:55 - 24:57
    hundred thousands of subscribers, is,
  • 24:57 - 24:59
    like, weird behavior for a celebrity of
  • 24:59 - 25:00
    her size.
  • 25:00 - 25:02
    And not even a YouTuber with a hundred
  • 25:02 - 25:05
    thousand subscribers, random a** people.
  • 25:05 - 25:07
    I was just scrolling through her Twitter
  • 25:07 - 25:09
    the other day getting ready for this
  • 25:09 - 25:11
    episode, and, like, she was sending
  • 25:11 - 25:13
    multiple tweets, like, screenshotting
  • 25:13 - 25:15
    this man's tweets and then sending out
  • 25:15 - 25:17
    her responses to her fourteen million
  • 25:17 - 25:19
    followers. This guy named Rajan, who
  • 25:19 - 25:21
    wrote, "I am a CIS male and an ally
  • 25:21 - 25:23
    of the LGBTQ community. All of my life
  • 25:23 - 25:25
    I have fought for diversity and equality.
  • 25:25 - 25:27
    I advised two Attorney General's on
  • 25:27 - 25:29
    race and equality issues and prosecuted
  • 25:29 - 25:31
    on behalf of victims of crime. I know
  • 25:31 - 25:33
    who I am and am proud of what I stand
  • 25:33 - 25:35
    for." And she responded with, uh, with
  • 25:35 - 25:38
    her own tweet, which she was pretending
  • 25:38 - 25:40
    to speak in his voice, in Rajan's voice.
  • 25:40 - 25:42
    She wrote, "I am a man who wants to see
  • 25:42 - 25:44
    girls and women stripped of their rights
  • 25:44 - 25:46
    and protections for the benefit of
  • 25:46 - 25:48
    my fellow men." And it's like, okay,
  • 25:48 - 25:49
    obviously that's not what Rajan was
  • 25:49 - 25:52
    saying. But then I was like, "Who the hell
  • 25:52 - 25:53
    is Rajan?" He has four hundred and
  • 25:53 - 25:55
    fifty-three followers. The tweet which she
  • 25:55 - 25:58
    sent out to her fourteen million
  • 25:58 - 26:00
    followers, Rajan's original tweet
  • 26:00 - 26:02
    had twenty-five likes!
  • 26:02 - 26:05
    Yeah, it's, like, literally just some guy
  • 26:05 - 26:07
    and she's just, (stutters) like, there's
  • 26:07 - 26:10
    no sense of the influence she wields.
  • 26:10 - 26:12
    I mean, in a way, she does think that
  • 26:12 - 26:13
    she's just someone's, like, Facebook
  • 26:13 - 26:15
    aunt. She's behaving in a way that is
  • 26:15 - 26:17
    indistinguishable from the way- she's not
  • 26:17 - 26:19
    acting like a public figure.
  • 26:19 - 26:21
    I just can't understand how J.K. Rowling
  • 26:21 - 26:23
    has spent, and this is what she does
  • 26:23 - 26:24
    everyday by the way, listener, feel
  • 26:24 - 26:26
    free to go to her Twitter. She's beefing
  • 26:26 - 26:28
    with someone who lives in, like, f******
  • 26:28 - 26:30
    Iowa. And it's like, I just can't (laughs)
  • 26:30 - 26:32
    conceptualize, especially if I had a
  • 26:32 - 26:34
    billion dollars. I don't know. I would
  • 26:34 - 26:36
    be on, like, a yacht probably. And not
  • 26:36 - 26:38
    arguing with f****** Rajan four hundred,
  • 26:38 - 26:40
    fifty-three followers. Rajan, if you're
  • 26:40 - 26:42
    out there, shout out. You seem like a
  • 26:42 - 26:43
    great guy.
  • 26:43 - 26:44
    (laughter)
  • 26:44 - 26:46
    Yeah, we love Rajan on this podcast.
  • 26:46 - 26:48
    I just can't make sense of her spending,
  • 26:48 - 26:51
    I imagine her rocking back n' forth in
  • 26:51 - 26:53
    the corner of, like, her eleventh living
  • 26:53 - 26:55
    room in her sixth castle; just, like, on
  • 26:55 - 26:56
    Twitter sweating.
  • 26:56 - 26:58
    (scoffs) I think we like to imagine
  • 26:58 - 27:00
    that when people get, you know, really
  • 27:00 - 27:02
    rich and famous, then there's a sense of,
  • 27:02 - 27:04
    like, peace or happiness or tranquility
  • 27:04 - 27:06
    that accompanies that, but that does not
  • 27:06 - 27:07
    seem to be the case, right? I mean, I'm
  • 27:07 - 27:09
    trying to imagine being in that situation.
  • 27:09 - 27:11
    I feel that, like, once you achieved a
  • 27:11 - 27:13
    certain level of, like, you know, success
  • 27:13 - 27:15
    beyond most people's wildest dreams...
  • 27:15 - 27:18
    It must be hard to know what to do with
  • 27:18 - 27:20
    that feeling of discontentment that's,
  • 27:20 - 27:22
    - like, still inside of you.
    - (Matt) Mmm
  • 27:22 - 27:24
    And I think that sometimes people, like,
  • 27:24 - 27:26
    you know, wildly successful people, like
  • 27:26 - 27:28
    J.K. Rowling or Elon Musk, they sort of
  • 27:28 - 27:30
    get addicted to Twitter as this, like,
  • 27:30 - 27:34
    - source of conflict (scoffs) almost.
    - (Matt) Mmm
  • 27:34 - 27:36
    It's almost like (stutters) once you don't
  • 27:36 - 27:38
    have to worry about money, once, you know,
  • 27:38 - 27:40
    you're free of your, you know, your past
  • 27:40 - 27:42
    abusive relationship, once you've, you
  • 27:42 - 27:44
    know, accomplish all the things you
  • 27:44 - 27:46
    previously wanted to accomplish, it's,
  • 27:46 - 27:47
    like, it's almost like you need to- you
  • 27:47 - 27:49
    just can't be happy with that. You need
  • 27:49 - 27:52
    to, like, find a new, like, fight almost.
  • 27:52 - 27:54
    And so, people go looking on Twitter;
  • 27:54 - 27:56
    you can always find a fight on Twitter.
  • 27:56 - 27:57
    I think there's something very unhealthy
  • 27:57 - 27:59
    about the way a lot of people, uh, relate
  • 27:59 - 28:01
    to using the internet as a source of
  • 28:01 - 28:04
    conflict, and then once your ego gets
  • 28:04 - 28:07
    invested, I think that's, you know, part
  • 28:07 - 28:09
    of what's going on with J.K. Rowling, of
  • 28:09 - 28:11
    course, is that because she's come,
  • 28:11 - 28:13
    you know, she's, like, positioned herself
  • 28:13 - 28:16
    so firmly on the anti-trans side. She now
  • 28:16 - 28:19
    feels like she has to defend it viciously.
  • 28:19 - 28:21
    Because otherwise, that would mean
  • 28:21 - 28:23
    admitting that she was wrong and admitting
  • 28:23 - 28:25
    that she's caused a massive amount of
  • 28:25 - 28:26
    damage.
  • 28:26 - 28:28
    Yes and you know what? It is really hard
  • 28:28 - 28:31
    to, like, profess your beliefs in front of
  • 28:31 - 28:34
    a lot of people. Like I have basically
  • 28:34 - 28:36
    done that as part of my job of making,
  • 28:36 - 28:39
    like, social and political content and
  • 28:39 - 28:41
    commentary online for the lat few years.
  • 28:41 - 28:43
    Like one of the things that took me
  • 28:43 - 28:45
    too long to come to grips with is that,
  • 28:45 - 28:47
    like, sometimes you need to know when
  • 28:47 - 28:51
    you're wrong. And, like, taking the L as
  • 28:51 - 28:54
    - the kids say, and I've had to
    - (Natalie) Yeah.
  • 28:54 - 28:56
    take L's online and it's embarrassing
  • 28:56 - 28:57
    and it makes you feel small. I mean,
  • 28:57 - 28:59
    Natalie, I know that's happened to you
  • 28:59 - 29:01
    where you've had to come to the mic and
  • 29:01 - 29:03
    be like, "Yeah I was wrong about this
  • 29:03 - 29:05
    thing," even if it takes a while to do
  • 29:05 - 29:07
    that. That is also one of the greatest,
  • 29:07 - 29:09
    like, personal lessons that I've taken
  • 29:09 - 29:10
    away from, like, being online
  • 29:10 - 29:12
    politically; is that being wrong is
  • 29:12 - 29:14
    actually, like, I mean it's so f******
  • 29:14 - 29:15
    corny, but it's like an opportunity.
  • 29:15 - 29:17
    I think it's, like, genuinely, like,
  • 29:17 - 29:19
    spiritually good for you to be able to
  • 29:19 - 29:21
    accept that. It's been helpful to me
  • 29:21 - 29:24
    overtime to learn, to get a lot of
  • 29:24 - 29:26
    criticism, and to kind of be at peace
  • 29:26 - 29:28
    with it, and to not feel like I need to
  • 29:28 - 29:31
    constantly be, like, a vigilant defender
  • 29:31 - 29:33
    of my own ego. People are going to say
  • 29:33 - 29:35
    things about me, they're going to
  • 29:35 - 29:36
    misrepresent me, they're going to
  • 29:36 - 29:38
    criticize me, and some of it will be
  • 29:38 - 29:40
    true, and a lot of it will be false. And
  • 29:40 - 29:42
    like, you just kind of have to learn to
  • 29:42 - 29:45
    - find peace with that. Otherwise you'll
    - (Matt) Mmm
  • 29:45 - 29:47
    go crazy. But, yeah, what we have on
  • 29:47 - 29:50
    our hands here with Ms. Rowling is a case
  • 29:50 - 29:52
    of someone who is pathologically
  • 29:52 - 29:54
    incapable of ever letting anything go
  • 29:54 - 29:56
    ever, right?
    - Matt: (laughs) Ever.
  • 29:56 - 29:57
    Like, I don't think she's ever once
  • 29:57 - 29:59
    admitted to being wrong about a single
  • 29:59 - 30:00
    thing.
  • 30:00 - 30:02
    No, and that includes the Holocaust denial
  • 30:02 - 30:04
    arc, which I'm teasing the listener with
  • 30:04 - 30:06
    cause we're not quite there yet.
  • 30:06 - 30:09
    I wanna return to the role of language
  • 30:09 - 30:10
    in all of this and, like, semantics,
  • 30:10 - 30:12
    right? We're going to be talking about
  • 30:12 - 30:15
    the transphobia serving as a gateway
  • 30:15 - 30:17
    into further right wing, you know, broader
  • 30:17 - 30:19
    right wing ideology. But then I also think
  • 30:19 - 30:21
    that taking it back a step, I think that
  • 30:21 - 30:23
    some people's entry into transphobia are
  • 30:23 - 30:26
    these, like, frankly, like, silly semantic
  • 30:26 - 30:28
    - word arguments.
    - (Natalie) Yeah.
  • 30:28 - 30:31
    They're erasing the word "women." And so,
  • 30:31 - 30:35
    as another example, what I think is a
  • 30:35 - 30:38
    powerful example of that: Ana Kasparian.
  • 30:38 - 30:40
    So, Ana Kasparian, she's one of the
  • 30:40 - 30:42
    political commentators on the Young Turks,
  • 30:42 - 30:45
    which is one of the bigger and of the
  • 30:45 - 30:49
    earlier left wing political YouTube shows.
  • 30:49 - 30:52
    You know she had her viral, um, "I don't
  • 30:52 - 30:54
    care what the Bible says! I don't, like...
  • 30:54 - 30:57
    (video) "I don't care if you're Christian.
  • 30:57 - 30:59
    In fact, I will fight for you to have
  • 30:59 - 31:01
    your religious liberty and practice
  • 31:01 - 31:04
    your Christianity. I believe in that. I
  • 31:04 - 31:06
    don't believe in Christianity, which means
  • 31:06 - 31:08
    that you do not get to dictate the way I
  • 31:08 - 31:11
    live my life based on your religion.
  • 31:11 - 31:14
    I don't care what the Bible says. You have
  • 31:14 - 31:16
    every right in the world. All those women
  • 31:16 - 31:18
    who identify with your religion have every
  • 31:18 - 31:19
    right in the world to not get an
  • 31:19 - 31:21
    abortion, to not take birth control.
  • 31:21 - 31:23
    But they do not have the right to dictate
  • 31:23 - 31:26
    my life and what I decide to do with
  • 31:26 - 31:29
    my body. I don't care about your godd*mn
  • 31:29 - 31:30
    religion."
  • 31:30 - 31:32
    (Matt) I think she's, like, had some
  • 31:32 - 31:34
    really great things to say over the years.
  • 31:34 - 31:36
    And none of that, none of the education,
  • 31:36 - 31:39
    none of anything stopped her from falling
  • 31:39 - 31:42
    into transphobic semantic rabbit hole
  • 31:42 - 31:45
    last May; like all horrible things that
  • 31:45 - 31:47
    took place on Twitter. So I'm going to
  • 31:47 - 31:49
    send you the tweets.
  • 31:49 - 31:51
    Okay so this first tweet is, "I'm a woman.
  • 31:51 - 31:53
    Please don't ever refer to me as a
  • 31:53 - 31:55
    person with a uterus, birthing person,
  • 31:55 - 31:57
    or person who menstruates. How do
  • 31:57 - 31:59
    people not realize how degrading this is?
  • 31:59 - 32:01
    You can support the transgender community
  • 32:01 - 32:02
    without doing this s***."
  • 32:02 - 32:04
    If you're just taking this tweet at face
  • 32:04 - 32:06
    value, I don't even disagree with it.
  • 32:06 - 32:08
    I think, like, yeah, right, don't, you
  • 32:08 - 32:10
    shouldn't refer to an individual person
  • 32:10 - 32:12
    as a "birthing person," that's weird. I
  • 32:12 - 32:15
    agree. I feel like where I disagree is in
  • 32:15 - 32:17
    the subtext, right? The first question
  • 32:17 - 32:20
    I have is, in what context did someone
  • 32:20 - 32:23
    refer to Anna in this way? Did this
  • 32:23 - 32:25
    happen? Did someone call her
  • 32:25 - 32:27
    (Natalie) "a person who menstruates"?
  • 32:27 - 32:29
    Like, in what context? Was the context
  • 32:29 - 32:31
    on a piece of medical paperwork? Should
  • 32:31 - 32:34
    phrases such as "a person who menstruates"
  • 32:34 - 32:36
    replace the phrase "woman" in everyday
  • 32:36 - 32:38
    English? No, of course not. Who's
  • 32:38 - 32:39
    suggesting that? Is anyone suggesting
  • 32:39 - 32:41
    that? I've never once heard trans person
  • 32:41 - 32:43
    suggest that. So, it's like, we're
  • 32:43 - 32:45
    arguing against this position that,
  • 32:45 - 32:46
    like, who are we arguing against?
  • 32:46 - 32:48
    I don't know. It feels like (stutters) for
  • 32:48 - 32:50
    some reason there's this need to argue
  • 32:50 - 32:52
    against this, like, strong man version of
  • 32:52 - 32:54
    a trans activist, who insist that we stop
  • 32:54 - 32:56
    using the word "women". I've never heard
  • 32:56 - 32:58
    someone claim that. I also think, like,
  • 32:58 - 33:00
    even the extent to which this is used
  • 33:00 - 33:02
    in medical context is overstated. Like, I
  • 33:02 - 33:04
    don't know, I'm thinking of, like, recent
  • 33:04 - 33:06
    times I've interacted with the medical
  • 33:06 - 33:08
    system. I feel like I'm often, you know,
  • 33:08 - 33:10
    when you select your gender on medical
  • 33:10 - 33:12
    paperwork, it's usually male, female,
  • 33:12 - 33:16
    or, like, other (scoffs) and it'll ask
  • 33:16 - 33:18
    you to explain. So, I will usually, like,
  • 33:18 - 33:20
    add, you know, as a context note that
  • 33:20 - 33:23
    I am a transgender woman. So that, in so
  • 33:23 - 33:25
    far as that's medically relevant, it's
  • 33:25 - 33:28
    noted. I have no given birth, nor have I
  • 33:28 - 33:30
    been to the hospital with someone giving
  • 33:30 - 33:33
    birth recently. So, I cannot say what the
  • 33:33 - 33:35
    experience is like. But I guess I'll be
  • 33:35 - 33:37
    curious to know, like, how often, I don't
  • 33:37 - 33:39
    know, if someone is listening this, um,
  • 33:39 - 33:41
    you know, if you, like, had a baby at a
  • 33:41 - 33:44
    hospital recently, like, how frequently
  • 33:44 - 33:46
    were phrases like "birthing person" used?
  • 33:46 - 33:48
    My guess is not very frequently.
  • 33:48 - 33:51
    - So I'm not sure (stammers) It just
    - (Matt) Right.
  • 33:51 - 33:53
    feels like a sort of imaginary argument
  • 33:53 - 33:54
    that we're having.
  • 33:54 - 33:55
    (Matt) Totally, totally.
  • 33:55 - 33:57
    (stammers) I'm, like, lacking context for,
  • 33:57 - 33:59
    like, where is this occurring? I spend a
  • 33:59 - 34:01
    lot of time around women, actually. And
  • 34:01 - 34:03
    I feel like I don't see the word- I don't
  • 34:03 - 34:05
    see these phrases being thrown around
  • 34:05 - 34:07
    very often these days. And I'm in a very
  • 34:07 - 34:09
    trans inclusive, you know, kind of social
  • 34:09 - 34:11
    - environment. So, you'd think if
    - Matt: (laughs)
  • 34:11 - 34:13
    lots of people had replaced the word
  • 34:13 - 34:16
    "woman" with "person with a uterus," I
  • 34:16 - 34:17
    think I would have heard that but I
  • 34:17 - 34:18
    haven't.
  • 34:18 - 34:20
    (laughs) Right? So, she's starting to get
  • 34:20 - 34:22
    kind of dogged online and she responds
  • 34:22 - 34:26
    with tweet number two. Please hold...
  • 34:27 - 34:28
    Did you receive?
  • 34:29 - 34:30
    Umm, hold on. Not yet.
  • 34:31 - 34:32
    Oh, wait. Did it not send to you?
  • 34:33 - 34:35
    - I don't see it.
    - (Matt) Oh, weird.
  • 34:35 - 34:37
    Okay wait let me try again. Maybe I
  • 34:37 - 34:39
    just sent it to the wrong person (laughs)
  • 34:39 - 34:41
    And then out of nowhere you receive it
  • 34:41 - 34:42
    (laughter)
  • 34:42 - 34:45
    and its some tweet from a year ago
  • 34:45 - 34:47
    You might want to figure out who you
  • 34:47 - 34:49
    - just send that to. It could be kind of
    - (Matt laughing)
  • 34:49 - 34:50
    weird with no context.
  • 34:50 - 34:52
    (laughing continues)
  • 34:52 - 34:55
    Okay tweet two, "LOL. The meltdowns over
  • 34:55 - 34:56
    wanting to be referred to as a woman
  • 34:56 - 34:58
    rather than a "birthing person" is pretty
  • 34:58 - 35:00
    wild. I'll never apologize for that,
  • 35:00 - 35:03
    especially as biological woman who
  • 35:03 - 35:05
    has had a f****** lifetime of being
  • 35:05 - 35:07
    told I'm less than. I'm a woman. No
  • 35:07 - 35:11
    apologies," (sighs) So, again it's like, I
  • 35:11 - 35:13
    don't know, a lot of this type of
  • 35:13 - 35:16
    transphobic stuff comes from a kind of,
  • 35:16 - 35:19
    like, misdirected frustration with
  • 35:19 - 35:22
    misogyny. Anna reacted with, "Oh, people
  • 35:22 - 35:24
    are sort of forcing me to be called
  • 35:24 - 35:25
    the 'birthing person', and then that's
  • 35:25 - 35:28
    sort of somehow erasing the lifetime of
  • 35:28 - 35:30
    misogyny that I've had to experience
  • 35:30 - 35:32
    as a woman." I mean, I think it's like a
  • 35:32 - 35:34
    kind of scapegoat in a way. I feel that,
  • 35:34 - 35:35
    like, a lot of times, like, people who
  • 35:35 - 35:37
    get (stutters) into this gender critical
  • 35:37 - 35:39
    talking points, it's often a kind of,
  • 35:39 - 35:41
    like, displaced rage and frustration at
  • 35:41 - 35:43
    experiences of misogyny, often in, like,
  • 35:43 - 35:45
    leftist spaces, right? Cause that's a
  • 35:45 - 35:47
    real thing. Misogyny is pretty rampant on
  • 35:47 - 35:50
    the left as it is everywhere. And I think
  • 35:50 - 35:52
    that a lot of women find that hard to
  • 35:52 - 35:54
    complain about. And it's difficult in part
  • 35:54 - 35:57
    because men usually are in power. I don't
  • 35:57 - 35:59
    know, you kind of, as a woman, you kind
  • 35:59 - 36:01
    of have to, like, pander to men to get
  • 36:01 - 36:03
    through the day to some extent.
  • 36:03 - 36:03
    (Matt) Yeah
  • 36:03 - 36:05
    So, it's like frightening to take a stand
  • 36:05 - 36:07
    against men. But trans people this kind
  • 36:07 - 36:09
    of, like, hated minority that is sort of
  • 36:09 - 36:11
    easy to, like, it's kind of easy to,
  • 36:11 - 36:13
    like, dump all of your, like, frustrations
  • 36:13 - 36:15
    and rage onto trans people because
  • 36:15 - 36:18
    there's a social momentum behind that
  • 36:18 - 36:20
    in a way that there sort of isn't against,
  • 36:20 - 36:22
    like, I don't know, frustration with
  • 36:22 - 36:24
    misogyny and leftist spaces, for example.
  • 36:24 - 36:26
    I honestly kinda feel bad for Ana reading
  • 36:26 - 36:28
    these tweets because obviously there's
  • 36:28 - 36:30
    some massive life, as she says, a lifetime
  • 36:30 - 36:33
    of, like, of difficult experiences that's
  • 36:33 - 36:36
    behind this. And it's blowing up now, but
  • 36:36 - 36:39
    it's choosing as its target, this very
  • 36:39 - 36:41
    weird thing that seems to me, to be
  • 36:41 - 36:42
    slightly off topic.
  • 36:42 - 36:45
    So these tweets are in March. And then in
  • 36:45 - 36:50
    July, she is still kind of stuck on
  • 36:50 - 36:52
    this transgender issue. In a discussion
  • 36:52 - 36:55
    about various social justice movements
  • 36:55 - 36:57
    and their methods for accomplishing
  • 36:57 - 37:00
    their goals, she tweets what I have
  • 37:00 - 37:01
    selected as to be tweet number three.
  • 37:01 - 37:03
    Which I will send to you now.
  • 37:03 - 37:06
    - Oh, this one (scoffs) Yeah this is...
    - (Matt laughs)
  • 37:06 - 37:08
    Okay, and see this is (stutters)
    okay, this
  • 37:08 - 37:10
    tweet- I know I'm talking about the
  • 37:10 - 37:11
    tweet before I've read it. But I do feel
  • 37:11 - 37:13
    that this tweet that I'm about to read,
  • 37:13 - 37:15
    it really kind of does showcase the way
  • 37:15 - 37:19
    that transphobia is kind of a red flag and
  • 37:19 - 37:22
    it's often the prelude to a whole bunch
  • 37:22 - 37:25
    of nonsense. Okay (breaths deeply)
  • 37:25 - 37:27
    Ana Kasparian quote, "The Civil Rights
  • 37:27 - 37:29
    Movement did not use the same strategies
  • 37:29 - 37:31
    as the trans movement. They didn't
  • 37:31 - 37:34
    barricade speakers they disagreed with in
  • 37:34 - 37:35
    a classroom for three hours. They
  • 37:35 - 37:37
    persuaded through non-violence and
  • 37:37 - 37:39
    showing America their humanity."
  • 37:39 - 37:44
    So this is (exhales) this is basically the
  • 37:44 - 37:47
    entire thing that the podcast called,
  • 37:47 - 37:49
    "The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling" was
  • 37:49 - 37:51
    about, um. This was what the podcast with
  • 37:51 - 37:53
    Megan Phelps-Roper of Westboro Baptist
  • 37:53 - 37:56
    Church fame, uh and J.K. Rowling. A lot
  • 37:56 - 37:59
    of the argument was, like, "Oh, what we
  • 37:59 - 38:01
    really hate about the trans movement is
  • 38:01 - 38:03
    they use, like, illiberal methods. And
  • 38:03 - 38:06
    it's so unlike all past movements. Like
  • 38:06 - 38:08
    Gay Rights wasn't like this, and Women's
  • 38:08 - 38:10
    Rights wasn't like this, and the Civil
  • 38:10 - 38:12
    Rights Movement, they never did anything
  • 38:12 - 38:14
    violent and they were always polite and
  • 38:14 - 38:16
    they never raised their voices and they
  • 38:16 - 38:18
    never called people names." And it's just,
  • 38:18 - 38:20
    like, "Well I'm sorry that is historically
  • 38:20 - 38:21
    not true."
  • 38:21 - 38:23
    And it's so jarring to see someone like
  • 38:23 - 38:26
    - Ana Kasparian, who knows all of that,
    - (Natalie) Knows, yeah.
  • 38:26 - 38:28
    though. She knows all of that. I mean, all
  • 38:28 - 38:30
    of these movements had (stammers)
  • 38:30 - 38:32
    You think about that one famous, uh,
  • 38:32 - 38:35
    clip of Angela Davis talking about, like,
  • 38:35 - 38:37
    whether or not she endorses violence.
  • 38:37 - 38:39
    And she's just like, "Well, whether or not
  • 38:39 - 38:41
    I endorse it is besides the point.
  • 38:41 - 38:43
    Violence is the only thing I've ever known
  • 38:43 - 38:44
    as a black person in America. "
  • 38:44 - 38:46
    Have these people heard of Malcolm X?
  • 38:46 - 38:48
    Have they heard (stammers and scoffs)
  • 38:48 - 38:49
    Stonewall! Like, come on!
  • 38:49 - 38:51
    What do these people think the Civil
  • 38:51 - 38:53
    Rights Movement was? Like, I mean, it's
  • 38:53 - 38:55
    literally every one of these movements,
  • 38:55 - 38:57
    too. Like, I mean, again, people think of
  • 38:57 - 38:59
    Women's Suffrage assumes to be like,
    you know,
  • 38:59 - 39:01
    you think of the women marching with
  • 39:01 - 39:03
    their banners and it's like, "Oh, they
  • 39:03 - 39:05
    just had to show people their humanity by
  • 39:05 - 39:07
    being peaceful," and it's like, churches
  • 39:07 - 39:10
    were firebombed (scoffs) by suffragettes
  • 39:10 - 39:11
    in the U.K. People were physically,
  • 39:11 - 39:13
    they were murdered for Women's Suffrage.
  • 39:13 - 39:15
    Which is not to say that I am endorsing
  • 39:15 - 39:17
    these violent methods, but it's like,
  • 39:17 - 39:18
    I'm about to get so demonetized.
  • 39:18 - 39:20
    Wait, hold on, I can- let me rephrase that
  • 39:20 - 39:22
    People were unalived
    (Matt laughs)
  • 39:22 - 39:25
    People were unalived
    in the name of women's suffrage, right,
  • 39:25 - 39:30
    churches became more on fire
    than they previously had been,
  • 39:30 - 39:34
    in the name of women's suffrage, right,
  • 39:34 - 39:35
    like, this is the historical reality
  • 39:35 - 39:38
    that people forget because it's
    sort of more comfortable I guess
  • 39:38 - 39:41
    to assume that like, oh,
    Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. just had to
  • 39:41 - 39:45
    get up on a podium and say "I have a dream, look
  • 39:45 - 39:48
    I'm human and then all the white people clapped and said
  • 39:48 - 39:51
    "Yes, let's have rights for all"
    and it's like no, that's not what happened
  • 39:51 - 39:55
    To desegregate schools in Alabama,
    president Eisenhower had to
  • 39:55 - 40:00
    send in the army, desegregation happened
    at gunpoint, it was not a peaceful process
  • 40:00 - 40:04
    I hope that trans rights can be
    accomplished with less violence than that,
  • 40:04 - 40:07
    and I think, in fact, there's no reason
    why that shouldn't be the case
  • 40:07 - 40:13
    But to suggest that the trans rights movement
    is this uniquely violent- it's just isn't
  • 40:13 - 40:15
    It just isn't. It's just false.
  • 40:15 - 40:19
    You've tead me up. We've arrived at
    Holocaust denialism.
  • 40:19 - 40:21
    We sure have.
  • 40:21 - 40:25
    Two weeks ago, JK Rowling
    saw a tweet someone had written to her
  • 40:25 - 40:31
    "The Nazis burnt books on trans healthcare
    and research, why are you so desperate
  • 40:31 - 40:33
    to uphold their ideology around gender?"
  • 40:33 - 40:37
    And, this obviously pissed her off a lot,
    because she screenshotted it
  • 40:37 - 40:40
    and, uh, tweeted it out to her
    own audience,
  • 40:40 - 40:42
    with the additional caption,
    where she wrote,
  • 40:42 - 40:46
    "I just....how How did you type this out
    and press send without thinking
  • 40:46 - 40:50
    'I should maybe check my source for this,
    because it might've been a fever dream?'"
  • 40:50 - 40:53
    And, I just want to add,
    before we get into any of this,
  • 40:53 - 41:00
    my favorite thing about this exchange
    is that the tweet which JK Rowling took
  • 41:00 - 41:05
    which accused her of sharing the Nazi's
    ideaology on, uh, trans healthcare,
  • 41:05 - 41:07
    the tweet has five views.
  • 41:07 - 41:08
    Not likes.
  • 41:09 - 41:09
    Wow.
  • 41:09 - 41:11
    It has five views. That is zero likes.
  • 41:11 - 41:16
    That is, like, you get five views on
    a tweet just by it existing in the ether.
  • 41:16 - 41:20
    Yeah, that is a-I mean I've almost
    never seen a tweet with that few views.
  • 41:20 - 41:24
    She- [laughing] she went out of her way
  • 41:24 - 41:27
    to find a tweet that would allow her to
  • 41:27 - 41:29
    participate in Holocaust denial.
  • 41:29 - 41:31
    It was like she had to chase this one.
  • 41:31 - 41:34
    Yeah, that makes it all the more baffling
    because it's, like,
  • 41:34 - 41:37
    okay, I understand why you would say-
    why you would start doing
  • 41:37 - 41:40
    a little casual Holocaust denial
    in the heat of the moment,
  • 41:40 - 41:42
    because, if, I don't know,
    you were like on the spot
  • 41:42 - 41:45
    and like, I don't know, someone was-
    someone was- someone had you
  • 41:45 - 41:49
    backed into a corner and you were just,
    like, said whatever you thought you needed
  • 41:49 - 41:51
    to say to win the argument-
  • 41:51 - 41:51
    [Matt] Right
  • 41:51 - 41:55
    -but it's like, this is just, like,
    this is just like freeform, like,
  • 41:55 - 41:56
    completely, like, out of the blue.
  • 41:56 - 42:00
    You know what, I've been searching
    around the dark corners of Twitter lately
  • 42:00 - 42:04
    and I feel like today is the day
    I shall begin denying the Holocaust.
  • 42:04 - 42:05
    [Matt laughing]
  • 42:05 - 42:07
    Like, like what?
  • 42:08 - 42:12
    You need to buy a yacht and just
    go on it!
  • 42:12 - 42:15
    So she tweet this, right?
    And so the person accuses-
  • 42:15 - 42:20
    the person's claim is that Nazis burnt
    books on trans healthcare and research,
  • 42:20 - 42:23
    and JK Rowling says that they must be
    experiencing a fever dream
  • 42:23 - 42:24
    to have claim that.
  • 42:24 - 42:25
    That is absolutely true.
  • 42:25 - 42:31
    The Nazis did ban, uh, hordes of books,
    of some of the earliest and most important
  • 42:31 - 42:34
    at the time books on trans healthcare and
    research.
  • 42:34 - 42:36
    Specifically what this person is referencing,
  • 42:36 - 42:41
    is, uh, the burning of the library of
    the Institute for Sexual Research.
  • 42:41 - 42:43
    So, just, a little bit of quick history:
  • 42:43 - 42:47
    There was this young doctor, young gay doctor,
  • 42:47 - 42:49
    in Germany, his name was
    Magnus Hirschfeld,
  • 42:49 - 42:55
    in 1919, he opened the-
    I'm gonna, I'm gonna do my best German voice-
  • 42:55 - 42:57
    the Institute for Sexualwissenschaft.
  • 42:57 - 43:01
    Which, translates roughly to
    the Institute for Sexual Research.
  • 43:01 - 43:05
    It was the first sexology research center
    in the world.
  • 43:05 - 43:09
    You know, Hirschfeld was gay,
    he had grown up in a deeply homophobic
  • 43:09 - 43:14
    era of Germany, he was super
    traumatized, not only by being gay
  • 43:14 - 43:17
    but witnessing homophobia against
    other queer people.
  • 43:17 - 43:21
    He would later go on to talk about having
    witnessed in medical school,
  • 43:21 - 43:26
    watching a fellow gay student who was
    trotted out naked in front of a class
  • 43:26 - 43:31
    to be humiliated by the rest of the class
    for being a quote-unquote degenerate.
  • 43:31 - 43:35
    So, at this Institute of Sexual Research,
    which he opened,
  • 43:35 - 43:38
    he basically had all of these gay and
    trans patients
  • 43:38 - 43:41
    who he would treat for various
    needs.
  • 43:41 - 43:45
    There were anti-crossdressing laws
    in Germany at the time, and he
  • 43:45 - 43:51
    would get his trans patients this, like,
    special transgender ID card
  • 43:51 - 43:55
    that, like, by today's standards would be,
    y'know, strange and demoralizing,
  • 43:55 - 43:59
    but at the time, it actually legally
    protected them from being prosecuted
  • 43:59 - 44:01
    under these crossdressing laws.
  • 44:01 - 44:06
    If the cops came up to you, you were like,
    "Here's my trans ID, see I'm a certified
  • 44:06 - 44:09
    transgender," and then they'd be like,
    "Okay, you're-" y'know,
  • 44:09 - 44:14
    Magnus Hirschfeld was- this was, like,
    gay-trans, like, cis gay to trans allyship.
  • 44:14 - 44:20
    Also in the Institute of Sexual Research,
    there was among the first libraries
  • 44:20 - 44:22
    about sexuality and gender.
  • 44:22 - 44:27
    And this guy was collecting research
    a hundred years ago on these topics
  • 44:27 - 44:30
    that would be considered progressive today.
  • 44:30 - 44:34
    Um, there was some of the earliest
    literature on the various gender-affirming
  • 44:34 - 44:37
    surgeries, and by 1930,
    the Institute was performing some of the
  • 44:37 - 44:41
    first, you know, what we think of today
    as modern gender-affirming surgeries
  • 44:41 - 44:42
    in the world.
  • 44:42 - 44:43
    And who was one of his patients?
  • 44:43 - 44:44
    Lili Elbe.
  • 44:44 - 44:45
    Lili Elbe!
  • 44:45 - 44:46
    The Danish girl.
  • 44:48 - 44:50
    Was one of his patients!
  • 44:50 - 44:52
    You know, so, the Nazi party comes to rise,
  • 44:52 - 44:57
    and Hitler wanted to cleanse society of
    you know, what he deemed lives
  • 44:57 - 44:58
    unworthy of living.
  • 44:58 - 45:04
    On May 6th, 1933, the Nazis raided
    the Institute of Sexual Research,
  • 45:04 - 45:07
    and burned 20,000 of its books
    in the street.
  • 45:07 - 45:12
    And, this was, like, very famously, like,
    one of the first Nazi book burnings.
  • 45:12 - 45:15
    Like, there are photos of it, this isn't,
    like, deep buried-
  • 45:15 - 45:17
    No, it's not obscure. It's not obscure stuff.
  • 45:17 - 45:21
    It's like one of the most famous photos
    of Nazi book burning,
  • 45:21 - 45:23
    which I guarantee most people have seen.
  • 45:23 - 45:26
    And, so, this initial tweet that
    JK Rowling called this person
  • 45:26 - 45:28
    basically insane for writing was
  • 45:28 - 45:32
    "The Nazis burnt books on trans healthcare
    and research. Why are you so desperate
  • 45:32 - 45:34
    to uphold their ideology around gender?"
  • 45:34 - 45:36
    And so this is just factually true.
  • 45:36 - 45:41
    Right? Like, whatever you think of
    JK Rowling, like, the Nazis did do that,
  • 45:41 - 45:45
    and she does share their view on trans
    healthcare in gen-
  • 45:45 - 45:47
    like, that's just what's happening.
  • 45:47 - 45:51
    And so, people start to point out
    that, like, babe, you know,
  • 45:51 - 45:55
    you're doing a little bit of Holocaust
    denial by saying that this didn't happen.
  • 45:55 - 45:59
    Alejandra Caraballo, who is a notable
    trans person on Twitter,
  • 45:59 - 46:03
    she responded, writing, "You're
    engaging in Holocaust denial."
  • 46:03 - 46:07
    JK Rowling responds, "Neither of your
    articles support the contention that trans
  • 46:07 - 46:12
    people were the first victims of the Nazis
    or that all research on trans healthcare
  • 46:12 - 46:16
    was burned in 1930s Germany.
    You are engaging in lying, Alejandra."
  • 46:16 - 46:19
    So, she responds by being, like,
    pedantic.
  • 46:19 - 46:22
    I don't know, it's hard to take-
    it's hard to respect this.
  • 46:22 - 46:25
    It's not engaging at all with, like,
    the spirit of what anyone is saying.
  • 46:25 - 46:28
    I mean, so, first of all, like, we can get-
    I mean, we can, and it is interesting,
  • 46:28 - 46:32
    like, to dive into the actual, like,
    historical record of this,
  • 46:32 - 46:35
    and the way that some of the, you know,
    first, like, Nazi book burnings were,
  • 46:35 - 46:40
    in fact, targeting an early library of
    books about gay rights and about
  • 46:40 - 46:43
    transgender, you know, medicine.
  • 46:43 - 46:48
    But it also, you know, like,
    even without talking about the factual
  • 46:48 - 46:51
    record, like, like, let's think
    big picture here.
  • 46:51 - 46:56
    Do we really think that the National
    Socialist Party was [stammers]
  • 46:56 - 46:59
    would have just been fine with transgender
    people? Like, right?
  • 46:59 - 47:02
    Like, oh, no, they're against the gays,
    and they're against the Jews,
  • 47:02 - 47:06
    and they're against the Romani, but
    sure, that the- the transvestites,
  • 47:06 - 47:07
    yeah we love them!
  • 47:07 - 47:08
    Like, like, what?
  • 47:08 - 47:12
    I mean, and of course, we can verify
    historically that, yes, trans people
  • 47:12 - 47:12
    were persecuted.
  • 47:12 - 47:16
    I- I've seen a lot of what I consider
    extremely bad faith discourse about this
  • 47:16 - 47:20
    controversy with people saying, like,
    "Well, the Nazis didn't have, like, the
  • 47:20 - 47:22
    category transgender, which is a more
    recent invention,"
  • 47:22 - 47:26
    and yes, that's true, but, like,
    okay the Nazis didn't officially persecute
  • 47:26 - 47:29
    lesbians, either, because I don't think
    that- because, I mean, if you look
  • 47:29 - 47:31
    at the history of, like, lesbophobia,
  • 47:31 - 47:36
    often the form that lesbophobia takes
    is that lesbians are just not seen as real,
  • 47:36 - 47:41
    right? It's just sort of not acknowledged,
    even, as a valid phenomenon, where
  • 47:41 - 47:45
    male homosexuality is seen as degeneracy,
    and then that's something to be persecuted.
  • 47:45 - 47:50
    Oftentimes, it's just kind of like flatly
    denied that lesbians exist.
  • 47:50 - 47:54
    Now, does that just say that no lesbians
    were persecuted in the Holocaust?
  • 47:54 - 47:55
    Almost certainly not.
  • 47:55 - 47:58
    I know that like the Nazis had these
    categories of like asocial.
  • 47:58 - 47:59
    [Matt] Correct.
  • 47:59 - 48:02
    Like, this like, it's like a black triangle
    that's like the badge-
  • 48:02 - 48:02
    [Matt] Yeah
  • 48:02 - 48:05
    -and I think that a lot of
    queer women were sort of
  • 48:05 - 48:08
    killed on the, on the basis of
    being asocial, quote unquote.
  • 48:08 - 48:12
    So, this kind of, pedantry of being
    kind of, well, technically the Nazis
  • 48:12 - 48:15
    didn't use the wo- like, okay,
    but they [stammers] they still killed
  • 48:15 - 48:18
    queer women, and they still
    killed trans people.
  • 48:18 - 48:22
    So, like, why are you playing this
    pedantic game to-
  • 48:22 - 48:26
    why- because [stammers] they're
    engaging in denial of transphobia, right?
  • 48:26 - 48:29
    [Matt] Well, and it's so exhausting too
    because she writes,
  • 48:29 - 48:33
    "The contention that trans people were the
    first victims of the Nazis were that all
  • 48:33 - 48:37
    or that all research on trans healthcare
    was burned in the 1930s."
  • 48:37 - 48:40
    And it's like she's arguing against the
    point that nobody made.
  • 48:40 - 48:43
    [Natalie] Yeah, she didn't say that-
    did Alejandra say that?
  • 48:43 - 48:44
    [Matt] No!
  • 48:44 - 48:47
    [Natalie] Did she say that every single
    piece of research was destroyed?
  • 48:47 - 48:51
    [Matt] No! Alejandra didn't say that,
    and the original tweet that JK Rowling
  • 48:51 - 48:54
    said was insane, once again, just said,
    "The Nazis burned books on trans healthcare
  • 48:54 - 48:55
    and research."
  • 48:55 - 48:56
    That was the claim.
  • 48:56 - 49:00
    [Natalie] Yeah, so she's consistently,
    like, arguing against positions that no one
  • 49:00 - 49:01
    has taken.
  • 49:01 - 49:04
    [Matt] Correct, and it's, like,
    instead of ever admitting fault,
  • 49:04 - 49:09
    and, right, and- and she just
    shifts the goalpost over and over.
  • 49:09 - 49:11
    And then that leads you-
  • 49:11 - 49:15
    Really, with transphobia or with anything
    like if you refuse to admit fault in
  • 49:15 - 49:18
    anything that you say, you will keep
    shifting the goalpost because
  • 49:18 - 49:21
    that will be the only way, that,
    in your head, you can maintain
  • 49:21 - 49:23
    the upper hand in an argument.
  • 49:23 - 49:28
    This refusal to admit being wrong ever
    leads you to some fucking whacky places.
  • 49:28 - 49:31
    It led her to Holocaust denialism, and it
    led Ana Kasparian to saying that
  • 49:31 - 49:35
    the Civil Rights Movement was entirely
    peaceful.
  • 49:35 - 49:38
    Which, she knows that that's not true!
  • 49:38 - 49:41
    [Natalie] Well, it's like, if you make-
    if you can never admit that you're wrong
  • 49:41 - 49:45
    about anything, if you make one wrong
    turn, you'll never get on the right path
  • 49:45 - 49:46
    again.
  • 49:46 - 49:47
    [Matt] Right.
  • 49:47 - 49:51
    [Natalie] Because if you don't admit that
    you've made a wrong turn, then you
  • 49:51 - 49:52
    can't correct it.
  • 49:52 - 49:57
    So, I feel like that is part of the-
    the fallacy that's going on here
  • 49:57 - 50:00
    where, like, okay, JK Rowling can't
    admit that she was ever wrong about
  • 50:00 - 50:04
    anything, and so, she has no choice but
    to double down and triple down and
  • 50:04 - 50:09
    quadruple down and just keep walking
    in this terrible direction, basically, right?
  • 50:09 - 50:11
    To completely mix my metaphors.
  • 50:11 - 50:15
    That's why she has, and will continue to
    say more absurd and dangerous things;
  • 50:15 - 50:21
    because that is the only option
    that she has, if she can't admit
  • 50:21 - 50:24
    that she made a wrong turn somewhere.
  • 50:24 - 50:27
    [Matt] I want to talk a little bit
    about this, like, transphobia to, like,
  • 50:27 - 50:29
    general right-wing madness pipeline
    a little bit.
  • 50:29 - 50:35
    Media Matters conducted this study where
    they made a TikTok account
  • 50:35 - 50:39
    and in that TikTok account, they only
    liked exclusively anti-trans content
  • 50:39 - 50:44
    to see what the For You Page algorithm
    would then feed the account.
  • 50:44 - 50:50
    Very quickly, the videos-
    and they did an analysis of like four hundred
  • 50:50 - 50:52
    videos that TikTok then fed into their
  • 50:52 - 50:53
    For You Page-
  • 50:53 - 50:57
    did not just keep feeding them transphobic
    videos, but racist videos, misogynistic
  • 50:57 - 51:03
    videos, anti-vax and kind of other
    right-wing conspiracy theories,
  • 51:03 - 51:06
    a lot of antisemetic conspiracy theories,
  • 51:06 - 51:07
    type content
  • 51:07 - 51:08
    I think thats interesting
  • 51:08 - 51:10
    because I think it reflects what
  • 51:10 - 51:12
    we see when poeple engange with
  • 51:12 - 51:14
    transphobia in real life.
  • 51:14 - 51:16
    And so, what do you think,
  • 51:16 - 51:18
    first of all, what do you think makes
  • 51:18 - 51:19
    tranpohobia, um, including this like
  • 51:19 - 51:22
    terf-y transphobic feminism thing, like
  • 51:22 - 51:23
    what do you think makes it a
  • 51:23 - 51:25
    fundamentally right wing idiology,
  • 51:25 - 51:28
    and one that is so affective and sucks
  • 51:28 - 51:29
    people in that way?
  • 51:29 - 51:31
    [Natalie]
    Well, I think, yeah, I definitley think
  • 51:31 - 51:33
    thats true, that transphobia is a gateway
  • 51:33 - 51:36
    bigotry, like its often will be like the
  • 51:36 - 51:40
    prelude to a bunch more other forms of
  • 51:40 - 51:42
    bigorty that people, I feel like feel
  • 51:42 - 51:44
    I think transphobia is sort of a socially
  • 51:44 - 51:45
    acceptable still,
    [Matt] Mhm
  • 51:45 - 51:47
    [Natalie] Than a lot of other forms of
  • 51:47 - 51:49
    bigotry, so that will often be the one
  • 51:49 - 51:51
    that people decide to publicly declare
  • 51:51 - 51:53
    but I also think that, what is it about
  • 51:53 - 51:55
    transphobia that makes it distinctivley
  • 51:55 - 51:57
    right-wing? And I feel like it has to do
  • 51:57 - 51:59
    with the kind- of structure of basically
  • 51:59 - 52:02
    scapegoating a vulnerable minority, and
  • 52:02 - 52:04
    then blaming them for various social
  • 52:04 - 52:07
    problems, right? So I feel that predjudice
  • 52:07 - 52:10
    usually sort of operates that way, or its
  • 52:10 - 52:12
    one common type of prejudice right?
  • 52:12 - 52:14
    And a case of someone like J.K Rowling,
  • 52:14 - 52:16
    It seems like trans people are kind of
  • 52:16 - 52:18
    functionally taking the place of
  • 52:18 - 52:22
    patriarchy right? In her arguments, so
  • 52:22 - 52:24
    like where the left- wing person would
  • 52:24 - 52:26
    notice the kind of structure of power,
  • 52:26 - 52:28
    and the kind of broader inequalities
  • 52:28 - 52:30
    you know, that are the reason why women
  • 52:30 - 52:33
    are opressed, instead of doing that, you
  • 52:33 - 52:35
    take the kind of way that right- wing
  • 52:35 - 52:37
    women go, which is, you almost sort of
  • 52:37 - 52:39
    accept the patriarchy as natural and
  • 52:39 - 52:42
    inevitable, and you instead displace that
  • 52:42 - 52:46
    frustration onto immigrants, onto
    [Matt] Mhmmm
  • 52:46 - 52:48
    you know, instead of complaining about
  • 52:48 - 52:51
    you know, men, men who are your brothers
  • 52:51 - 52:53
    or you complain about muslim men, right?
  • 52:53 - 52:56
    Or you complain about the Jews, or you
  • 52:56 - 52:58
    complain about, in this case, trans people
  • 52:58 - 53:00
    Umm, (Stammers), In the 70s, for
  • 53:00 - 53:02
    Anita Bryant, it was gay people, right?
  • 53:02 - 53:05
    It's this kind of, sort of shifting
  • 53:05 - 53:07
    scapegoat and trans people
  • 53:07 - 53:09
    are the curent scapegoat of choice for
  • 53:09 - 53:10
    a lot of people.
  • 53:10 - 53:12
    But, it, the strucutre of argument and
  • 53:12 - 53:14
    the psychology behind it is very
  • 53:14 - 53:17
    similar to like, many many other, you know
  • 53:17 - 53:20
    bigoted movements, I mean I think also
  • 53:20 - 53:22
    theres this element of amnesia,
  • 53:22 - 53:24
    where people sort of forget how similar
  • 53:24 - 53:26
    this current world panic is to like
  • 53:26 - 53:29
    homophobia from the Bush era.
  • 53:29 - 53:30
    [Matt] Totally
  • 53:30 - 53:32
    [Natalie] Including things like, the
  • 53:32 - 53:34
    linguistic obsession, like why?
  • 53:34 - 53:36
    Does no one remember the arguments that
  • 53:36 - 53:40
    people used to have back then? I guess
    I'm just old, but people used to
  • 53:40 - 53:41
    [Laughter]
  • 53:41 - 53:44
    Like I don't know, I remember the 2000s,
    I remember people having a similar
  • 53:44 - 53:47
    semantic hang up on the word marriage,
  • 53:47 - 53:50
    where like, I don't know, like the phrase
  • 53:50 - 53:53
    "Her wife" Right? Was seen by a lot of
  • 53:53 - 53:56
    people as like, not just like sacreligious
  • 53:56 - 53:59
    as blasphemy, as a kind of sin, but also
  • 53:59 - 54:02
    as a kind of, like, an attack on, like
  • 54:02 - 54:04
    meaning itself. An attack on the English
  • 54:04 - 54:08
    language, like "Her wife", being this like
  • 54:08 - 54:11
    total nonsense, right? In the same way
  • 54:11 - 54:12
    that I think like "His uterus",
  • 54:12 - 54:14
    or whatever, seems to create upset with
  • 54:14 - 54:16
    people today
    -[Matt] Mmmm
  • 54:16 - 54:18
    [Natalie] Umm, right so again (Stammers)
  • 54:18 - 54:20
    "They're re-defining marriage" That was
  • 54:20 - 54:23
    such, like a slogan, in those days,
  • 54:23 - 54:27
    it sort of avoids taking a political
  • 54:27 - 54:29
    stance, like really what they're mad about
  • 54:29 - 54:31
    is the social equality of gay people.
  • 54:31 - 54:34
    Right? But the way that they present their
  • 54:34 - 54:36
    argument is as if they're like, I don't
  • 54:36 - 54:39
    know, pettance about grammar, or
  • 54:39 - 54:41
    something, there was really concerns,
  • 54:41 - 54:43
    there was words being redefined
  • 54:43 - 54:46
    which, I don't know it doesn't make sense
  • 54:46 - 54:49
    for that to be something that you feel
    passionate about in my opinion
  • 54:49 - 54:52
    but it's because thats not what they're
    really passionate about right?
  • 54:52 - 54:57
    The semantic thing is a cover for a social
    and political thing. So I see transphobia
  • 54:57 - 54:59
    in the 2020s, as like , sort of almost
  • 54:59 - 55:01
    functionally identical to homophobia in
  • 55:01 - 55:03
    the 2000s, in terms of like, the role
  • 55:03 - 55:05
    that it plays in politics, and in terms of
  • 55:05 - 55:08
    the types of arguments that people make
    in it's favor
  • 55:08 - 55:10
    [Matt] And speaking about gay, something
  • 55:10 - 55:12
    that J.K. Rowling does a lot is like speak
  • 55:12 - 55:15
    on behalf of concerned lesbians, she does
  • 55:15 - 55:17
    a lot of this posting which, I don't know
  • 55:17 - 55:20
    if you have feelings about this but she
    does a lot of this posting about like,
  • 55:20 - 55:21
    you know,
  • 55:21 - 55:23
    "All of the work that gays fought for
  • 55:23 - 55:27
    bravely is being undone by radical trans
    activists" and its like J.K. Rowling,
  • 55:27 - 55:31
    first of all, you are not gay. (laughter)
    [Natalie] Yeah.
  • 55:31 - 55:33
    [Matt] Take a seat, but it's also like,
  • 55:33 - 55:35
    it pi**** me off too because she does
  • 55:35 - 55:37
    this, she has more of a reach that like,
  • 55:37 - 55:40
    almost any gay person in the world, and
  • 55:40 - 55:42
    she does this thing where she'll speak on
  • 55:42 - 55:43
    behalf of gay people being like
  • 55:43 - 55:46
    "Gays don't want"
    She echoes the like,
  • 55:46 - 55:50
    "Gays want a divorce from the trans and
    queer people" you know,
  • 55:50 - 55:53
    "Political divorce". She does that
    rhetoric a lot, and I'm like
  • 55:53 - 55:56
    you're not gay, you don't know what the
    f*** you're talking about
  • 55:56 - 56:00
    and also like, the majority of cis gay
    people are entirely cool with trans people
  • 56:00 - 56:02
    and down with the cause,
  • 56:02 - 56:04
    So what the hell are you talking about!?
  • 56:04 - 56:06
    [Natalie] Yeah it's one of the most
    disgusting, honestly
  • 56:06 - 56:09
    things that she does, I think it's the
    way she constantly-
  • 56:09 - 56:13
    insetead of speaking for herself, in the
    first person, she constantly speaks
  • 56:13 - 56:18
    particularly chooses lesbians as the kind
    of banner for whatever she wants to say
  • 56:18 - 56:24
    and she (Stammers) charitably, or like
    chivalrously, almost like defending the
  • 56:24 - 56:25
    lesbians,
    [Matt] Totally
  • 56:25 - 56:28
    [Natalie] (Stammers) As if thats the
    reason she's involved in this
  • 56:28 - 56:30
    and, again it just
  • 56:30 - 56:32
    the claims again don't make any sense,
    right?
  • 56:32 - 56:36
    "Oh we're eroding all the rights that gay
    activists fought for"
  • 56:36 - 56:39
    Okay which rights are those? Did gay
    activists fight for the rights not to use
  • 56:39 - 56:42
    trans peoples pronouns?
    [Matt] (Laughter)
  • 56:42 - 56:46
    [Natalie] Like which part of the gay
    rights struggle did that occur in?
  • 56:46 - 56:47
    And the thing is true like
  • 56:47 - 56:50
    "Oh womens rights are being eroded, the
    rights that we fought so hard for"
  • 56:50 - 56:53
    And it's like well, but which rights? This
  • 56:53 - 56:55
    is just not a thing in the history of
    feminism.
Title:
J.K. Rowling’s Spiral into Madness (with ContraPoints)
Description:

From “sex is real” to Holocaust denial — if it happened to the wizard lady, it can happen to you.

Support me on Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/mattbernstein

Watch more from Natalie Wynn a.k.a. ContraPoints: https://www.youtube.com/@ContraPoints

Find more of A Bit Fruity: https://www.instagram.com/abitfruitypod/?hl=en
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Video Language:
English
Team:
Captions Requested
Duration:
01:20:07

English subtitles

Incomplete

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