J.K. Rowling’s Spiral into Madness (with ContraPoints)
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0:00 - 0:03Hello, hello and welcome back to A Bit
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0:03 - 0:06Fruity, the show where we think that you
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0:06 - 0:08should never live in the closet, Harry,
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0:08 - 0:11even if the woman who created you changes
her mind. -
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0:19 - 0:22this episode is up, it'll be around the
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0:22 - 0:25same time that I upload March's deep dive
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0:25 - 0:27on Patreon, which I do every month
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0:27 - 0:30and this month it is on the wokeness of
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0:30 - 0:33Sydney Sweeney. The right just figured
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0:33 - 0:35out who Sydney Sweeney is because
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0:35 - 0:37they saw her on SNL and they never watched
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0:37 - 0:40Euphoria and her being hot is
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0:40 - 0:43causing a freakout of epic proportions.
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0:43 - 0:45So we're going to do a little analysis
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0:45 - 0:48of a woman's body, which is something
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0:48 - 0:49I'm fairly new to.
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0:49 - 0:51So, you know, wish me luck.
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0:51 - 0:54Today we are joined, once again,
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0:54 - 0:56by someone I'm honored to call a friend
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0:56 - 0:59of the show, Natalie Wynn, or as you may
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0:59 - 1:01know her online, ContraPoints is, an
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1:01 - 1:05ex-philosopher, she is a YouTuber
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1:05 - 1:07but I think calling her a YouTuber
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1:07 - 1:09is kind of diminutive to her craft.
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1:09 - 1:12She puts out a couple feature film-length
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1:12 - 1:14videos a year that you've probably
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1:14 - 1:16watched but if you haven't, you really
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1:16 - 1:17should go check those out.
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1:17 - 1:20She talks about philosophy, and sex and
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1:20 - 1:23gender, and capitalism, and Twilight
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1:23 - 1:26Natalie Wynn welcome back to A Bit Fruity.
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1:26 - 1:28Thank you much for having me back on
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1:28 - 1:30I am excited to be here again.
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1:30 - 1:32I'm honored to be a friend of the show.
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1:32 - 1:34I'm honored to have you as a friend
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1:34 - 1:36of the show. So, a couple weeks ago
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1:36 - 1:39J.K. Rowling, she got caught up in a
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1:39 - 1:40little Holocaust denial.
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1:40 - 1:43She does Holocaust denial a little from
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1:43 - 1:44time to time, (laughter) yeah.
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1:44 - 1:46It wasn't always this way. J.K. Rowling
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1:46 - 1:49wasn't always on Twitter denying
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1:49 - 1:52that, uh, queer people were persecuted in
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1:52 - 1:56the Holocaust. Until 2019, J.K. Rowling
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1:56 - 1:59was a universally beloved children's
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1:59 - 2:02author who taught every kid that there
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2:02 - 2:05was magic inside of them no matter how
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2:05 - 2:08cast out they may feel. Today, though,
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2:08 - 2:11how would you characterize her position
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2:11 - 2:11in the culture today?
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2:12 - 2:14Well, her position in the culture is
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2:14 - 2:16kind of weirdly split, right, cause on
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2:16 - 2:17the one hand, there is her continuing
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2:17 - 2:19legacy as the author of the wizard books
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2:19 - 2:21and on the other hand, there's like
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2:21 - 2:24almost her entire public persona, that
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2:24 - 2:26we mostly experience through Twitter
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2:26 - 2:28which is basically obsessive bigotry
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2:28 - 2:31towards trans people. That's become
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2:31 - 2:33sort of her definitive thing, right?
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2:33 - 2:35I think that people who don't follow this
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2:35 - 2:37kind of don't understand the extent of it
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2:37 - 2:40because, you know, I don't know, people
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2:40 - 2:42throw around like all kinds of accusations
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2:42 - 2:44on Twitter, so it's easy to think that
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2:44 - 2:46this is some kind of internet drama
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2:46 - 2:48blown out of proportion. But, what you're
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2:48 - 2:50missing is that if you have not been
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2:50 - 2:52paying attention to J.K. Rowling's Twitter
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2:52 - 2:54for the last, at this point, we're
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2:54 - 2:55talking about four or five years, which
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2:55 - 2:57is a long time. Like, she's basically used
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2:57 - 3:00her platform more often than not to do
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3:00 - 3:03trans-bashing. There's a reason why that
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3:03 - 3:05this gets talked about so much because,
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3:05 - 3:07I mean, she's one of the most famous
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3:07 - 3:10authors in the world with an enormous
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3:10 - 3:12platform, and she's just using it
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3:12 - 3:15constantly to target this small and,
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3:15 - 3:18like, already besieged, minority of people
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3:18 - 3:20who are facing, like, all kinds of, like,
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3:20 - 3:23legislative and cultural backlash in
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3:23 - 3:25the U.S. and the U.K. So it's like really
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3:25 - 3:28devastating (chuckle) that an author
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3:28 - 3:30that, that's this influential is also,
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3:30 - 3:34like, this obsessively devoted to
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3:34 - 3:36persecute, you know, to contributing
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3:36 - 3:39to the persecution of this group of
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3:39 - 3:40people, who's already so harassed.
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3:40 - 3:43But it's also, I don't know, it's also
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3:43 - 3:45kind of a bizarre spectacle, like, in
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3:45 - 3:47it's own right it's kind of like another
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3:47 - 3:49reason I feel like we're drawn to this
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3:49 - 3:51maybe, is that it's kind of like darkly
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3:51 - 3:53fascinating. How does this happen?
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3:53 - 3:55Like, how do we go from, like, the
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3:55 - 3:57Gryffindor common room and, you know,
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3:57 - 4:01Severus Snape, to, like, these unhinged
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4:01 - 4:04rants about the transexuals. It's weird.
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4:04 - 4:06It, it is weird and I think also, I mean,
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4:06 - 4:08yeah, if you go to J.K. Rowling's Twitter
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4:08 - 4:11right now and scroll through her feed,
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4:11 - 4:13it is literal years of talking every
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4:13 - 4:17single day, almost exclusively, about
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4:17 - 4:19transgender people, for years.
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4:19 - 4:22Which I think is the type of behavior
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4:22 - 4:24we associate, with like boomer facebook
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4:24 - 4:27moms, and then I guess in a sense, she
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4:27 - 4:29kind of would have been that, if she
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4:29 - 4:31hadn't become a billionaire and one of
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4:31 - 4:33the most famous and beloved children's
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4:33 - 4:35authors of all time. But she is those
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4:35 - 4:39things and the idea of her behaving the
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4:39 - 4:41way, like, our homophobic aunt does
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4:41 - 4:44or whatever, but like from some castle
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4:44 - 4:46in the U.K., is just like a very jarring
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4:46 - 4:48image. (Natalie) I think that summarizes
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4:48 - 4:51it really well, right, like, it is, like,
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4:51 - 4:53your bigoted aunts deranged Facebook post
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4:53 - 4:57except on a platform with millions of
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4:57 - 4:59people as the audience. I feel like we
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4:59 - 5:02as a society, have, like, yet to know how
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5:02 - 5:04to deal with this type of thing cause
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5:04 - 5:07J.K. Rowling's not the only case of it.
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5:07 - 5:09I mean, like, Elon Musk has dabbled
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5:09 - 5:11a little bit in some similar forms of
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5:11 - 5:13bigotry with a comparable or even
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5:13 - 5:15larger platform. But I feel like what's
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5:15 - 5:17unique about J.K. Rowling is that
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5:17 - 5:19she's, like, single mindedly focused on
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5:19 - 5:22trans people as this one issue.
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5:22 - 5:25(Matt) So she wasn't always this way
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5:25 - 5:27though, and what we're gonna do today
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5:27 - 5:30is use J.K. Rowling as what I think is
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5:30 - 5:33a valuable case study in the worm hole
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5:34 - 5:35that transphobia is. The way that it
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5:36 - 5:39can serve as it has for J.K. Rowling
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5:39 - 5:41and so many millions of other people
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5:41 - 5:43as a portal into the broader world
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5:43 - 5:46of right-wing ideology that gets pretty
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5:46 - 5:47scary pretty quickly. We're gonna
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5:47 - 5:50try to understand why transphobia, and
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5:50 - 5:52I think especially when it's cloaked,
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5:52 - 5:55no pun intended, as a progressive
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5:55 - 5:58feminist cause and especially effective
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5:58 - 6:00gateway into the alt right. One day
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6:00 - 6:02you're reminding people that you
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6:02 - 6:04just like to be referred to as a woman
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6:04 - 6:06and that you are a woman and then,
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6:06 - 6:08you know, the next day you are
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6:08 - 6:11participating in Holocaust denial. It can
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6:11 - 6:13happen to you. (Natalie) Many such cases.
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6:13 - 6:16(Matt) Many such cases. And so, to begin
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6:16 - 6:20this story I wanna go back to 2019
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6:20 - 6:23to the first tweet that I remember
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6:23 - 6:27seeing of J.K. Rowling's, her foray into
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6:27 - 6:30the anti-trans movement, which at the
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6:30 - 6:34beginning was very tepid. I am going to
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6:34 - 6:37send you the tweet. (Natalie) "Dress
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6:37 - 6:39however you please. Call yourself
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6:39 - 6:41whatever you like. Sleep with any
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6:41 - 6:44consenting adult who'll have you.
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6:44 - 6:46Live your best life in peace and security.
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6:46 - 6:49But force women out of their jobs for
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6:49 - 6:51stating that sex is real? Hashtag I
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6:51 - 6:53stand with Maya. Hashtag this is not
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6:53 - 6:55a drill." (Matt) So what was the
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6:55 - 6:56context of this one?
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6:56 - 6:59(Natalie) So, the context is that there
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6:59 - 7:01was a English consultant named
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7:01 - 7:04Maya Forstater who, I guess she wasn't
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7:04 - 7:06fired but her contract was not
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7:06 - 7:09renewed because she had, like, refused
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7:09 - 7:11to use the correct pronouns for a trans
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7:11 - 7:13coworker or something along those lines.
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7:13 - 7:16And a lot of so called "gender-critical",
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7:16 - 7:19that is "transphobic", people in the U.K.
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7:19 - 7:22decided to turn this into a celebrated
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7:22 - 7:24cause, they, you know, rallied behind
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7:24 - 7:26this hashtag "I stand with maya".
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7:26 - 7:28The idea being, like, "oh, we shouldn't
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7:28 - 7:31have to submit to gender ideology by,
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7:31 - 7:33you know, using the correct pronouns
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7:33 - 7:35for trans people in the work place or
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7:35 - 7:38whatever. This is where J.K. Rowling
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7:38 - 7:40decided to join this discourse
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7:40 - 7:43officially. She decided to jump in on
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7:43 - 7:46the side of people who think that it's
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7:46 - 7:48terribly oppressive to have to use
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7:48 - 7:50the correct pronouns for a trans person.
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7:50 - 7:52And I guess at first, you know, there was
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7:52 - 7:54some ambiguity because you could be
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7:54 - 7:56like, "Well she's not transphobic. Maybe
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7:56 - 7:58she just believes in free speech, and she
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7:58 - 8:00thinks that, you know, that people
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8:00 - 8:01shouldn't be fired for having different
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8:01 - 8:03opinions." And like okay, like, at
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8:03 - 8:05first you could sort of plausibly think
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8:05 - 8:07that maybe, given the benefit of the
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8:07 - 8:08doubt, that's why she was getting
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8:08 - 8:10involved in this. But, like, to people who
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8:10 - 8:12kind of know the pattern that
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8:12 - 8:14transphobia takes place, we all pretty
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8:14 - 8:16much knew that, "Oh, okay she really
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8:16 - 8:18is transphobic behind the scenes".
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8:18 - 8:20Like, there is no way that you would
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8:20 - 8:22-go decide to die on this hill unless
- Matt: Hmm. -
8:22 - 8:24you already were. At least that's what I
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8:24 - 8:26think now. I mean, I think J.K. Rowling
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8:26 - 8:28was at her most dangerous in 2019 and
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8:28 - 8:29in 2020 because of the stuff she was
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8:29 - 8:31saying seems kind of plausible and
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8:31 - 8:33reasonable to the average person, you
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8:33 - 8:35know. And so, there's this kind of like
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8:35 - 8:37clever selection of which topics to
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8:37 - 8:39get behind, right, instead of just,
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8:39 - 8:42I don't know, calling trans women "men"
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8:42 - 8:44in dresses, or whatever, it's like she's
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8:44 - 8:47defending the "right" of people to not
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8:47 - 8:49use the correct pronouns if they don't
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8:49 - 8:53agree, right? These people
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8:53 - 8:55kind of hedge in this way, like, when
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8:55 - 8:57they have a kind of like bigoted opinion
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8:57 - 8:59instead of just stating it out, right.
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8:59 - 9:00They sort of defend their right to have
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9:00 - 9:02-that opinion.
- Matt: Mhmm. -
9:02 - 9:04So, that was very much with this thing
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9:04 - 9:06with Maya Forstater is, right. It's like
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9:06 - 9:07she's not saying something sort of
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9:07 - 9:09directly transphobic, but she is kind of
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9:09 - 9:11indirectly getting there by being like,
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9:11 - 9:13"I am going to publicly champion Maya's
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9:13 - 9:15right to be transphobic. "
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9:15 - 9:17(Matt) I feel like in the early days
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9:17 - 9:19she did so much of this plausible,
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9:19 - 9:22deniability stuff where it's like, you
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9:22 - 9:23know, "I'm just saying sex is real".
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9:23 - 9:26Right? And the average person who
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9:26 - 9:28isn't, like, a terminally online queer
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9:28 - 9:30is going to be like, "Yeah, sex is real,
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9:30 - 9:32whatever, like, who cares."
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9:32 - 9:33You know? It's like not a big deal.
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9:33 - 9:35(Natalie) Yeah, she was very effective
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9:35 - 9:38early on at kind of like deciding what
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9:38 - 9:39it was that she thought people
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9:39 - 9:42were mad about, right? And so she
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9:42 - 9:44framed the conversation, "Oh here's why
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9:44 - 9:46I'm getting backlashed. I'm getting
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9:46 - 9:48backlash because I said quote on quote
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9:48 - 9:50'sex is real'. And so, it kind of seems
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9:50 - 9:52like if you believe her account of what
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9:52 - 9:55people are mad about, then it sounds like
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9:55 - 9:56everyone whose mad is unreasonable
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9:56 - 9:58because they are mad at her for taking
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9:58 - 10:00this kind of - taking what? An abstract,
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10:00 - 10:02philosophical position about the
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10:02 - 10:04metaphysics of biological sex? Like,
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10:04 - 10:06is that what people are mad about?
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10:06 - 10:08No, right? It's of course not that
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10:08 - 10:10because she is intervening in this
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10:10 - 10:13social and political debate, right,
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10:13 - 10:15on the side that wants trans people
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10:15 - 10:18functionally not to exist in public
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10:18 - 10:19life, or not to be acknowledged in
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10:19 - 10:21public life. So, that is what people
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10:21 - 10:23are mad about, right? But early on,
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10:23 - 10:24I think she was able to kind of
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10:24 - 10:26frame her position as being this
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10:26 - 10:29like, I don't know, almost philosophical
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10:29 - 10:31position about the reality of sex or
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10:31 - 10:32something, you know? That is what she
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10:32 - 10:34wanted to make it sound like instead of
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10:34 - 10:36a political position about the place of
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10:36 - 10:38transgender people in society.
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10:38 - 10:41When you first saw that tweet were, like,
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10:41 - 10:43alarm bells ringing?
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10:43 - 10:45Oh, absolutely. I mean, at that point
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10:45 - 10:47I was like, yeah I basically internally
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10:47 - 10:49thought there was like a nine
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10:49 - 10:51hundred and ninety-nine out of
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10:51 - 10:53one thousand percent chance that
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10:53 - 10:56-it's, as people say, over, right?
-Matt: (laughter) Right -
10:56 - 10:58It's so over, right? Like I already
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10:58 - 11:00basically already kind of knew that.
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11:00 - 11:02But I also kind of knew that, like,
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11:02 - 11:04well, most people aren't gonna notice
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11:04 - 11:06that it's over until she says something
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11:06 - 11:07more explicit.
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11:07 - 11:09Until she's doing Holocaust denial.
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11:09 - 11:12Yeah, until she's doing Holocaust denial,
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11:12 - 11:13exactly. But, of course, I've seen
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11:13 - 11:15enough people who kind of start this way
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11:15 - 11:17with this flirtation with bigotry where
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11:17 - 11:19stage one is usually like, "Well I
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11:19 - 11:22support the right for people to be bigots"
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11:22 - 11:24Like, I don't like that there's this,
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11:24 - 11:26like, cancel culture, whatever politically
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11:26 - 11:28correct - you can't say anything anymore.
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11:28 - 11:31Like, that's usually the prelude to a
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11:31 - 11:33bunch of bigoted stuff. It's kind of
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11:33 - 11:35like a softer way of getting a foot
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11:35 - 11:37in the door. Like, you're not necessarily
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11:37 - 11:38committing yourself to saying anything
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11:38 - 11:40bigoted. But you'll stand up for the right
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11:40 - 11:42of people to say that and you don't
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11:42 - 11:44like how, you know, how vicious people
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11:44 - 11:46are being towards people who are getting
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11:46 - 11:48criticized for saying more bigoted things.
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11:48 - 11:50In retrospect, it's clear that she's
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11:50 - 11:52preparing the way to be the one saying
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11:52 - 11:53those bigoted things herself.
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11:53 - 11:56For a while longer, well into 2020,
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11:56 - 11:58she, like, continues this road of
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11:58 - 12:02like, "sex is real". And so I'm going to
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12:02 - 12:04send you another thread.
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12:05 - 12:07It's funny how I know all of these
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12:07 - 12:09-like, by heart practically
-Matt: Oh (laughter) -
12:09 - 12:13-It's like song lyrics (laughter)
-Natalie: Right? I'm a scholar -
12:13 - 12:16-of the things she has said about
-Matt: (laughing) -
12:16 - 12:18trans people, right? Like, "Ah yes,
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12:18 - 12:21-tweet seven, verse three".
-Matt: (wheezes) -
12:23 - 12:25I know, cause, like, we've read these
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12:25 - 12:27-f***ing tweets so many times
-Natalie: I know, -
12:27 - 12:29the last four years has been
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12:29 - 12:31dominated by having to read these
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12:31 - 12:32terrible opinions again and again.
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12:32 - 12:34This is, honestly, no one should be
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12:34 - 12:36allowed to get this famous. It's too
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12:36 - 12:37dangerous.
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12:37 - 12:37(laughter)
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12:37 - 12:39Okay, but for the normal people listening
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12:39 - 12:41who aren't so online, do you want to read
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12:41 - 12:44what she tweeted on June 6, I believe,
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12:44 - 12:452020?
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12:45 - 12:47(Natalie) Dear normal people, this is me
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12:47 - 12:48reading from the book of Rowling,
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12:48 - 12:50chapter six (laughter).
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12:50 - 12:52Quote, "If sex isn't real, there's no
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12:52 - 12:54same-sex attraction. If sex isn't real,
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12:54 - 12:56the lived reality of women globally
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12:56 - 12:59is erased. I know and love trans people,
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12:59 - 13:02but erasing the concept of sex removes
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13:02 - 13:03the ability of many to meaningfully
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13:03 - 13:06discuss their lives. It isn't hate to
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13:06 - 13:07speak the truth."
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13:07 - 13:10Tweet two, "The idea that women like me,
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13:10 - 13:12who've been empathetic to trans people
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13:12 - 13:14for decades, feeling kinship because
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13:14 - 13:16they're vulnerable in the same way
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13:16 - 13:18as women - ie. to male violence - 'hate'
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13:18 - 13:20trans people because they think sex is
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13:20 - 13:22real and has lived consequences -
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13:22 - 13:24(English Accent): it is a nonsense."
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13:24 - 13:27-Natalie: Sorry, (inaudible) I feel I
-Matt: (laughter) -
13:27 - 13:29cannot say, "is a nonsense" without doing
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13:29 - 13:31-it in an English accent.
-Matt: (laughing) -
13:31 - 13:33(Natalie) I'm gonna switch to
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13:33 - 13:35doing an English accent for the last
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13:35 - 13:37one because I feel like, I just feel like
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13:37 - 13:38(English) "I respect every trans person's
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13:38 - 13:40right to live any way that feels
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13:40 - 13:42authentic and comfortable to them.
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13:42 - 13:44I'd march with you if you were
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13:44 - 13:45discriminated against on the basis
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13:45 - 13:47of being trans. At the same time, my
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13:47 - 13:49life has been shaped by being female.
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13:49 - 13:51I do not believe it's hateful to say so."
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13:51 - 13:53(Matt) "I'd march with you if you were
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13:53 - 13:54being discriminated against."
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13:54 - 13:56(Natalie) Yeah, that's a big, big red
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13:56 - 13:58flag, right? And this was, like, the
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13:58 - 14:00same month that the U.S., like, Donald
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14:00 - 14:01Trump had, like, announced, like, an
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14:01 - 14:03intention to, like, ban trans healthcare.
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14:03 - 14:04(Matt) Yes.
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14:04 - 14:06The notion that, like, discrimination
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14:06 - 14:08against trans people is this, like,
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14:08 - 14:10hypothetical thing that might occur in
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14:10 - 14:11the future, right?
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14:11 - 14:13If ever there was a trans person who
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14:13 - 14:15faced bigotry on the basis of their
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14:15 - 14:17identity, I would stand up for them. But
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14:17 - 14:19that hasn't happened yet. So, I'm just
-
14:19 - 14:21-not, I'm not standing up
-(Natalie) Yeah, right. -
14:21 - 14:23No one's ever been discriminated against
-
14:23 - 14:25for being trans. But, like, if it does
-
14:25 - 14:26happen, I'll march with you.
-
14:26 - 14:28But, okay, first of all, by the way, these
-
14:28 - 14:30tweets got hundreds of thousands of likes
-
14:30 - 14:32- and people were like,
- Natalie: Yes. -
14:32 - 14:34"Yes! You're a warrior!" But it's like
-
14:34 - 14:36again, a normal person who isn't super
-
14:36 - 14:38online, and, I mean, you know, from
-
14:38 - 14:39the queer and pro-trans end, but also
-
14:39 - 14:41from, like, the super TERF-y
anti-trans end. -
14:41 - 14:43Like if you aren't a part of either of
-
14:43 - 14:45those groups, you're reading this
-
14:45 - 14:47and are like, "What the f*** is she
-
14:47 - 14:49talking about? Like what is this 'sex
-
14:49 - 14:51is real' thing?" Like, what is she
-
14:51 - 14:52talking about?
-
14:52 - 14:54It's a weird argument, right? Because
-
14:54 - 14:56it seems on the surface like it's a
-
14:56 - 14:58linguistic point that she's trying to
-
14:58 - 15:00make, right? There's this idea, like she
-
15:00 - 15:02says, quote, "If we get rid of the
-
15:02 - 15:03concept of sex that removes the
-
15:03 - 15:05ability of many to discuss their lives."
-
15:05 - 15:07Okay, this is what I think the assumption
-
15:07 - 15:10is: it's, like, if we acknowledge that
-
15:10 - 15:12trans people are who they say they
-
15:12 - 15:14are, then that means that none of
-
15:14 - 15:17the rest of us can talk about how gender
-
15:17 - 15:19has impacted our lives, right? In other
-
15:19 - 15:21words, think of if a trans woman,
is a woman, then -
15:21 - 15:23I guess, you know, "I, J.K,. Rowling, can
-
15:23 - 15:25never talk about the way that I have
-
15:25 - 15:27been discriminated against for being
-
15:27 - 15:29a woman." I mean, it's a little bit of an
-
15:29 - 15:30oppression olympics almost kind of
-
15:30 - 15:32- argument, where it's like
- Matt: Mmm -
15:32 - 15:34there can only be one oppressed group,
-
15:34 - 15:36right? And if we talk about how, you
-
15:36 - 15:38know, there's no way to include trans
-
15:38 - 15:40people as a valid concept without sort of
-
15:40 - 15:43somehow, like, deleting or erasing the
-
15:43 - 15:45entire concept of women. Which, I mean,
-
15:45 - 15:47it doesn't make any sense, right?
-
15:47 - 15:49In fact, J.K. Rowling will later use as
-
15:49 - 15:52an example. Okay what does it mean to
-
15:52 - 15:54"erase women"? I mean, well, okay, so
-
15:54 - 15:55she'll use the example of, like, okay,
-
15:55 - 15:57some hospital somewhere, on a piece of
-
15:57 - 15:59paperwork says, uses the term "pregnant
-
15:59 - 16:01person" instead of "pregnant woman".
-
16:01 - 16:04Why? Because there is transgender men who
-
16:04 - 16:06can and have gotten pregnant. And so,
-
16:06 - 16:09saying "pregnant people" is a more, like,
-
16:09 - 16:11even if you find that to be an awkward
-
16:11 - 16:13phrase, like, it's still a more inclusive
-
16:13 - 16:16phrase that is going to help trans men
-
16:16 - 16:18who need reproductive healthcare
-
16:18 - 16:21that, you know, conventionally would be
-
16:21 - 16:23"women's health", right? I just don't
-
16:23 - 16:25understand why making it inclusive to
-
16:25 - 16:28transgender men somehow, like, deletes
-
16:28 - 16:30the concept of women from existence.
-
16:30 - 16:33Like, (stammers) it just doesn't make
-
16:33 - 16:35any sense to me. I feel like it's, like,
-
16:35 - 16:38a weird pretext for being prejudicial.
-
16:38 - 16:40-It's just such a lie. I mean, you see
-Natalie: Yeah. -
16:40 - 16:42this a lot with TERF's trans
-
16:42 - 16:44exclusionary radical feminists. It's like
-
16:44 - 16:46the arm of quote on quote, "feminism"
-
16:46 - 16:48that is basically just defined by
-
16:48 - 16:51transphobia. Especially towards trans
-
16:51 - 16:52women.
-
16:52 - 16:53Yeah, I don't even know if I would say
-
16:53 - 16:55that it's especially towards trans women.
-
16:55 - 16:57I would say that there is especially
-
16:57 - 16:59vitriolic towards trans women
-
16:59 - 17:00- and they kind of vilify.
- Matt: Mmm -
17:00 - 17:02Trans women are sort of cast as, like,
-
17:02 - 17:04dangerous predators. But trans men, I
-
17:04 - 17:07feel like, the way that a lot of, like,
-
17:07 - 17:09including J.K. Rowling, like, talk about
-
17:09 - 17:10trans men as a quite reprehensible I
-
17:10 - 17:13- think, too. Like, usually the idea
- Matt: Mmm -
17:13 - 17:15is, like, trans men are like confused
-
17:15 - 17:16girls who've been tricked by, like, the
-
17:16 - 17:18medical establishment, like, the evil
-
17:18 - 17:20cabal of endocrinologist who have, like,
-
17:20 - 17:24somehow, like, hoodwinked vulnerable girls
-
17:24 - 17:26into thinking that they're men. Which, of
-
17:26 - 17:28course, is not how the healthcare system
-
17:28 - 17:29works at all. Like, you really have to
-
17:29 - 17:31scream and cry to get hormones. Like, no
-
17:31 - 17:33one is persuading you to do this. In
-
17:33 - 17:35fact, quite the opposite. Everyone is
-
17:35 - 17:37telling you not to. So, the idea that
-
17:37 - 17:40trans men or that any kind of assigned
-
17:40 - 17:42female at birth trans person is this sort
-
17:42 - 17:45of confused, vulnerable baby child. Like,
-
17:45 - 17:48it's not vilification to the extent that
-
17:48 - 17:51they've vilified trans women as dangerous
-
17:51 - 17:53predators, but it's in infantilizing in a
-
17:53 - 17:57way that I think can be just as harmful
-
17:57 - 17:59in its consequences, right? When someone
-
17:59 - 18:01says, "Oh, you can't make decisions about
-
18:01 - 18:03your own body because you're too confused
-
18:03 - 18:06and childish." Like, you know, that has
-
18:06 - 18:07devastating consequences which we see.
-
18:07 - 18:10Any feminist should be aware of how this
-
18:10 - 18:12works cause this is what they say about
-
18:12 - 18:13abortion; it's what they about
-
18:13 - 18:15contraception; it's what they say about
-
18:15 - 18:17women's health in general. "Shut up,
-
18:17 - 18:19little girl," right, "You can't make
-
18:19 - 18:21decisions about your body. We'll do it
-
18:21 - 18:23for you." It's exactly the same thing J.K.
-
18:23 - 18:25Rowling is essentially saying to trans
-
18:25 - 18:26men.
-
18:26 - 18:27TERFS especially towards trans men
-
18:27 - 18:29do this like, "We're losing our lesbians.
-
18:29 - 18:31They're all becoming trans men thing."
-
18:31 - 18:33Which that as a refrain, I just don't
-
18:33 - 18:34understand at all because, like,
-
18:34 - 18:36statistically when you look at, like,
-
18:36 - 18:38the number of gen Z people who are
-
18:38 - 18:40coming out as queer, under every single
-
18:40 - 18:42one of the letters, it's higher in all
-
18:42 - 18:43of them.
-(Natalie) Right. -
18:43 - 18:45Like there are more out lesbians today
-
18:45 - 18:46than there have ever been.
-
18:46 - 18:49(stammers) Yes, there's never been more
-
18:49 - 18:52-lesbians, like, yeah
- Matt: Theres- (laughs) And to be clear -
18:52 - 18:53I love that (laughs)
-
18:53 - 18:55Yeah it's good, it's good actually, yeah.
-
18:55 - 18:57No, I mean, I feel like it comes from,
-
18:57 - 18:59it's like a very, like, selfish, like,
-
18:59 - 19:01childish perspective. It's almost like,
-
19:01 - 19:03"No don't transition, you're so sexy aha,"
-
19:03 - 19:06- you know? Like, I feel like, thats kind
- Matt: Yeah (laughs) -
19:06 - 19:08of, like, (stammers) and some gay women
-
19:08 - 19:10do say this about trans men. Like,
-
19:10 - 19:11"No, all the butch women are
-
19:11 - 19:13transitioning, like, I wanted to f***
-
19:13 - 19:15them before, no!" And it's like, okay,
-
19:15 - 19:16well, too bad, like (scoffs) other people
-
19:16 - 19:18don't have to live their lives in
-
19:18 - 19:20accordance with what you find sexually
-
19:20 - 19:22attractive. Like, again, as a woman
-
19:22 - 19:24(stammers) you should know this, right?
-
19:24 - 19:26- you should know that what you're
- Matt: Yeah -
19:26 - 19:28doing, what you're speaking about someone
-
19:28 - 19:30as if your sexual attraction to them
-
19:30 - 19:32entitles you to their living a certain
-
19:32 - 19:33way. You should know why that's bad and
-
19:33 - 19:36why that feels violating and why that robs
-
19:36 - 19:37someone of autonomy, right?
-
19:37 - 19:39And with TERFs and this whole thing of,
-
19:39 - 19:41like, "they're erasing the linguistic
-
19:41 - 19:44concept of a woman." It's like (sighs)
-
19:44 - 19:47- what world do you have to live in
- (Natalie) Yeah. -
19:47 - 19:49for that to feel like the truth? And
-
19:49 - 19:51look, I'm not a woman. And so, sometimes
-
19:51 - 19:53with these conversations I'm very careful
-
19:53 - 19:55about, like, even J.K. Rowling, a woman
-
19:55 - 19:57who I disagree with entirely on so many
-
19:57 - 19:59of these issues, it's like, I don't wanna
-
19:59 - 20:03police her understanding of her own trauma
-
20:03 - 20:05- as it pretence to being a woman.
- (Natalie) Yeah. -
20:05 - 20:08However, I still, like, we all live in
-
20:08 - 20:10the same society, and it's like, I'm
-
20:10 - 20:13just very hard pressed to think that the
-
20:13 - 20:16word "woman" is going anywhere.
-
20:16 - 20:17(Natalie scoffs)
-
20:17 - 20:19It's like, I don't think that, because on
-
20:19 - 20:21some, like, in some medical papers that
-
20:21 - 20:23are being published, that they're using
-
20:23 - 20:25the terms "people who get pregnant,"
-
20:25 - 20:27"people have periods," I don't think
-
20:27 - 20:29that means that, like, they're gonna start
-
20:29 - 20:32calling you in casual conversation
-
20:32 - 20:33"a person who menstruates."
-
20:33 - 20:35No. And no one talks like that way.
-
20:35 - 20:37I've never heard of a trans person
-
20:37 - 20:39casually refer to cis woman as
-
20:39 - 20:40"people who menstruate." Because the
-
20:40 - 20:42entire point of that term is that it
-
20:42 - 20:44doesn't just refer to cis women.
-
20:44 - 20:46There are people who have a sort of
-
20:46 - 20:48visceral reaction to it, which I
-
20:48 - 20:50guess I can kind of understand. Like,
-
20:50 - 20:52I think if you were to make, like, an
-
20:52 - 20:53intelligible, like, understandable
-
20:53 - 20:55argument out of what J.K. Rowling seems
-
20:55 - 20:57to be saying in these tweets, I mean I
-
20:57 - 20:59think you could put it like this,
-
20:59 - 21:01"For most women, the way that they are
-
21:01 - 21:03oppressed in society is in fact
-
21:03 - 21:05intertwined with biology," right? With
-
21:05 - 21:08women's reproductive role, as most women
-
21:08 - 21:10are capable of getting pregnant. And
-
21:10 - 21:12that becomes a area where women's lives
-
21:12 - 21:14are policed, right? It's interesting how
-
21:14 - 21:16J.K. Rowling never talks about this,
-
21:16 - 21:18- right? Not a word, not a word
- Matt: Mhmm -
21:18 - 21:19about Roe v Wade being overturned
-
21:19 - 21:21in the United States. For most women,
-
21:21 - 21:24biology and misogyny, they certainly are
-
21:24 - 21:26- intertwined. And there's a case to be
- Matt: Yeah. -
21:26 - 21:28made that anyone who's assigned
-
21:28 - 21:30female at birth does sort of belong
-
21:30 - 21:32to a oppressed class by virtue of
-
21:32 - 21:36their reproductive capability. Especially,
-
21:36 - 21:38like, you know, the sensitivity around,
-
21:38 - 21:39like, you know, "saying people who
-
21:39 - 21:41menstruate" or "people who give birth."
-
21:41 - 21:43I feel like if you hear those phrases in
-
21:43 - 21:45isolation, they kind of, like, can be
-
21:45 - 21:47abrasive sounding because there's,
-
21:47 - 21:49like, a lot of shame and stigma, there
-
21:49 - 21:50have for thousands of years around
-
21:50 - 21:52menstruation and, you know, women
-
21:52 - 21:54often are kind of reduced by patriarchy
-
21:54 - 21:56to, like, birthing people in a sense,
-
21:56 - 21:58right? So, I feel like that there's, like,
-
21:58 - 22:00some grain of something I can sympathize
-
22:00 - 22:02with her in terms of having a visceral,
-
22:02 - 22:04negative reaction to these phrases.
-
22:04 - 22:06But I feel like anyone who takes a second
-
22:06 - 22:08to cool down, understand the context
-
22:08 - 22:10of the phrase, will see
that's, like, clearly -
22:10 - 22:12not the intention. They know that it's
-
22:12 - 22:14going to have an emotional effect for a
-
22:14 - 22:16- lot of women to see those phrases.
- Matt: Mhmm -
22:16 - 22:18And so, they kind of decontextualize it
-
22:18 - 22:20and blast it onto Twitter with, like,
-
22:20 - 22:21a kind of vague implication that,
-
22:21 - 22:23"Oh, this is what they are going to
-
22:23 - 22:25reduce you to," and, like, "they" is who?
-
22:25 - 22:27"They" is quote on quote trans ideology.
-
22:27 - 22:30Which is sort of vaguely implied to be
-
22:30 - 22:31this, like, powerful cabal.
-
22:31 - 22:33(laughs) Right, which is also incredible
-
22:33 - 22:36because in real life it's like people
-
22:36 - 22:38with a hundred followers on Twitter.
-
22:38 - 22:40Yes, right! It's like you're being yelled
-
22:40 - 22:42at by, like, random, like, furries.
-
22:42 - 22:44(laughing)
-
22:44 - 22:48J.K. Rowling, she does fixate heavily on
-
22:48 - 22:52her own perceived persecution by trans
-
22:52 - 22:54people on Twitter. J.K. Rowling often
-
22:54 - 22:57gets into these, like, feuds, like very
-
22:57 - 22:59public feuds that she- actually I wanna
-
22:59 - 23:01google how many followers she has on
-
23:01 - 23:03Twitter. J.K. Rowling... Do you know
-
23:03 - 23:04the number by heart?
-
23:04 - 23:06I mean, I think it used to be like
-
23:06 - 23:07fourteen million.
-
23:07 - 23:08Oh! It's fourteen million.
-
23:08 - 23:10I hate that I know this.
-
23:10 - 23:11(laughter) Me too.
-
23:11 - 23:13I don't want these stocks in my head.
-
23:13 - 23:16J.K. Rowling, to her fourteen million
-
23:16 - 23:19followers, she, like, regularly puts these
-
23:19 - 23:22random a**, people on blast, and it's
-
23:22 - 23:24like, I don't know, I have, what? I have
-
23:24 - 23:26four hundred thousand Twitter followers,
-
23:26 - 23:28which is, by the way, too many for a
twink. -
23:28 - 23:31But, none the less, it's like, lots
-
23:31 - 23:33of horrible people say horrible things
-
23:33 - 23:35to me on the internet. You have to
-
23:35 - 23:37be aware of the power dynamic of, like,
-
23:37 - 23:39when you have fourteen million followers.
-
23:39 - 23:41[Natalie]
I feel like it was missing from J.K. -
23:41 - 23:43Rowling's discussion of how she's, like,
-
23:43 - 23:45victimized by social media, is any
-
23:45 - 23:47understanding of power, and I think
-
23:47 - 23:50that a key thing that is going on with
-
23:50 - 23:52J.K. Rowling is that she doesn't
-
23:52 - 23:54conceptualize herself as a powerful
-
23:54 - 23:56person. I mean, and this is common,
-
23:56 - 23:58right? Cause, you know, most people
-
23:58 - 24:00kind of think of themselves as, like,
-
24:00 - 24:03heroic underdogs, I feel, because, I
-
24:03 - 24:05don't know, you got bullied as a child,
-
24:05 - 24:06you got, you know, (stutters) right,
-
24:06 - 24:08like, in J.K. Rowling's case, like, she
-
24:08 - 24:12used to live in relative poverty. She was
-
24:12 - 24:15a single mom, she fled a, you know, a
-
24:15 - 24:17abusive relationship. And so, I still
-
24:17 - 24:19think in a way she kind of thinks of
-
24:19 - 24:22herself as this, like, small, like, scared
-
24:22 - 24:23person, like, on the run.
-
24:23 - 24:24Mmmm
-
24:24 - 24:26I mean, she's had, like, twenty-five years
-
24:26 - 24:28to, like, catch up to the new reality,
-
24:28 - 24:30but I feel like internally she still
-
24:30 - 24:32hasn't, right? I think it's hard for a
-
24:32 - 24:34lot of people to make this switch where
-
24:34 - 24:37you realize, "Oh, I am the big fish now,"
-
24:37 - 24:39right? Like, "I am the one who has power."
-
24:39 - 24:41And I think that, I mean a lot of what
-
24:41 - 24:44privilege is is a kind of blindness
-
24:44 - 24:47to your own power. She hasn't noticed that
-
24:47 - 24:49she's extremely powerful and influential.
-
24:49 - 24:51So, it hasn't occurred to her that, like,
-
24:51 - 24:54I don't know, going after some random
-
24:54 - 24:55YouTuber with a hundred, you know,
-
24:55 - 24:57hundred thousands of subscribers, is,
-
24:57 - 24:59like, weird behavior for a celebrity of
-
24:59 - 25:00her size.
-
25:00 - 25:02And not even a YouTuber with a hundred
-
25:02 - 25:05thousand subscribers, random a** people.
-
25:05 - 25:07I was just scrolling through her Twitter
-
25:07 - 25:09the other day getting ready for this
-
25:09 - 25:11episode, and, like, she was sending
-
25:11 - 25:13multiple tweets, like, screenshotting
-
25:13 - 25:15this man's tweets and then sending out
-
25:15 - 25:17her responses to her fourteen million
-
25:17 - 25:19followers. This guy named Rajan, who
-
25:19 - 25:21wrote, "I am a CIS male and an ally
-
25:21 - 25:23of the LGBTQ community. All of my life
-
25:23 - 25:25I have fought for diversity and equality.
-
25:25 - 25:27I advised two Attorney General's on
-
25:27 - 25:29race and equality issues and prosecuted
-
25:29 - 25:31on behalf of victims of crime. I know
-
25:31 - 25:33who I am and am proud of what I stand
-
25:33 - 25:35for." And she responded with, uh, with
-
25:35 - 25:38her own tweet, which she was pretending
-
25:38 - 25:40to speak in his voice, in Rajan's voice.
-
25:40 - 25:42She wrote, "I am a man who wants to see
-
25:42 - 25:44girls and women stripped of their rights
-
25:44 - 25:46and protections for the benefit of
-
25:46 - 25:48my fellow men." And it's like, okay,
-
25:48 - 25:49obviously that's not what Rajan was
-
25:49 - 25:52saying. But then I was like, "Who the hell
-
25:52 - 25:53is Rajan?" He has four hundred and
-
25:53 - 25:55fifty-three followers. The tweet which she
-
25:55 - 25:58sent out to her fourteen million
-
25:58 - 26:00followers, Rajan's original tweet
-
26:00 - 26:02had twenty-five likes!
-
26:02 - 26:05Yeah, it's, like, literally just some guy
-
26:05 - 26:07and she's just, (stutters) like, there's
-
26:07 - 26:10no sense of the influence she wields.
-
26:10 - 26:12I mean, in a way, she does think that
-
26:12 - 26:13she's just someone's, like, Facebook
-
26:13 - 26:15aunt. She's behaving in a way that is
-
26:15 - 26:17indistinguishable from the way- she's not
-
26:17 - 26:19acting like a public figure.
-
26:19 - 26:21I just can't understand how J.K. Rowling
-
26:21 - 26:23has spent, and this is what she does
-
26:23 - 26:24everyday by the way, listener, feel
-
26:24 - 26:26free to go to her Twitter. She's beefing
-
26:26 - 26:28with someone who lives in, like, f******
-
26:28 - 26:30Iowa. And it's like, I just can't (laughs)
-
26:30 - 26:32conceptualize, especially if I had a
-
26:32 - 26:34billion dollars. I don't know. I would
-
26:34 - 26:36be on, like, a yacht probably. And not
-
26:36 - 26:38arguing with f****** Rajan four hundred,
-
26:38 - 26:40fifty-three followers. Rajan, if you're
-
26:40 - 26:42out there, shout out. You seem like a
-
26:42 - 26:43great guy.
-
26:43 - 26:44(laughter)
-
26:44 - 26:46Yeah, we love Rajan on this podcast.
-
26:46 - 26:48I just can't make sense of her spending,
-
26:48 - 26:51I imagine her rocking back n' forth in
-
26:51 - 26:53the corner of, like, her eleventh living
-
26:53 - 26:55room in her sixth castle; just, like, on
-
26:55 - 26:56Twitter sweating.
-
26:56 - 26:58(scoffs) I think we like to imagine
-
26:58 - 27:00that when people get, you know, really
-
27:00 - 27:02rich and famous, then there's a sense of,
-
27:02 - 27:04like, peace or happiness or tranquility
-
27:04 - 27:06that accompanies that, but that does not
-
27:06 - 27:07seem to be the case, right? I mean, I'm
-
27:07 - 27:09trying to imagine being in that situation.
-
27:09 - 27:11I feel that, like, once you achieved a
-
27:11 - 27:13certain level of, like, you know, success
-
27:13 - 27:15beyond most people's wildest dreams...
-
27:15 - 27:18It must be hard to know what to do with
-
27:18 - 27:20that feeling of discontentment that's,
-
27:20 - 27:22- like, still inside of you.
- (Matt) Mmm -
27:22 - 27:24And I think that sometimes people, like,
-
27:24 - 27:26you know, wildly successful people, like
-
27:26 - 27:28J.K. Rowling or Elon Musk, they sort of
-
27:28 - 27:30get addicted to Twitter as this, like,
-
27:30 - 27:34- source of conflict (scoffs) almost.
- (Matt) Mmm -
27:34 - 27:36It's almost like (stutters) once you don't
-
27:36 - 27:38have to worry about money, once, you know,
-
27:38 - 27:40you're free of your, you know, your past
-
27:40 - 27:42abusive relationship, once you've, you
-
27:42 - 27:44know, accomplish all the things you
-
27:44 - 27:46previously wanted to accomplish, it's,
-
27:46 - 27:47like, it's almost like you need to- you
-
27:47 - 27:49just can't be happy with that. You need
-
27:49 - 27:52to, like, find a new, like, fight almost.
-
27:52 - 27:54And so, people go looking on Twitter;
-
27:54 - 27:56you can always find a fight on Twitter.
-
27:56 - 27:57I think there's something very unhealthy
-
27:57 - 27:59about the way a lot of people, uh, relate
-
27:59 - 28:01to using the internet as a source of
-
28:01 - 28:04conflict, and then once your ego gets
-
28:04 - 28:07invested, I think that's, you know, part
-
28:07 - 28:09of what's going on with J.K. Rowling, of
-
28:09 - 28:11course, is that because she's come,
-
28:11 - 28:13you know, she's, like, positioned herself
-
28:13 - 28:16so firmly on the anti-trans side. She now
-
28:16 - 28:19feels like she has to defend it viciously.
-
28:19 - 28:21Because otherwise, that would mean
-
28:21 - 28:23admitting that she was wrong and admitting
-
28:23 - 28:25that she's caused a massive amount of
-
28:25 - 28:26damage.
-
28:26 - 28:28Yes and you know what? It is really hard
-
28:28 - 28:31to, like, profess your beliefs in front of
-
28:31 - 28:34a lot of people. Like I have basically
-
28:34 - 28:36done that as part of my job of making,
-
28:36 - 28:39like, social and political content and
-
28:39 - 28:41commentary online for the lat few years.
-
28:41 - 28:43Like one of the things that took me
-
28:43 - 28:45too long to come to grips with is that,
-
28:45 - 28:47like, sometimes you need to know when
-
28:47 - 28:51you're wrong. And, like, taking the L as
-
28:51 - 28:54- the kids say, and I've had to
- (Natalie) Yeah. -
28:54 - 28:56take L's online and it's embarrassing
-
28:56 - 28:57and it makes you feel small. I mean,
-
28:57 - 28:59Natalie, I know that's happened to you
-
28:59 - 29:01where you've had to come to the mic and
-
29:01 - 29:03be like, "Yeah I was wrong about this
-
29:03 - 29:05thing," even if it takes a while to do
-
29:05 - 29:07that. That is also one of the greatest,
-
29:07 - 29:09like, personal lessons that I've taken
-
29:09 - 29:10away from, like, being online
-
29:10 - 29:12politically; is that being wrong is
-
29:12 - 29:14actually, like, I mean it's so f******
-
29:14 - 29:15corny, but it's like an opportunity.
-
29:15 - 29:17I think it's, like, genuinely, like,
-
29:17 - 29:19spiritually good for you to be able to
-
29:19 - 29:21accept that. It's been helpful to me
-
29:21 - 29:24overtime to learn, to get a lot of
-
29:24 - 29:26criticism, and to kind of be at peace
-
29:26 - 29:28with it, and to not feel like I need to
-
29:28 - 29:31constantly be, like, a vigilant defender
-
29:31 - 29:33of my own ego. People are going to say
-
29:33 - 29:35things about me, they're going to
-
29:35 - 29:36misrepresent me, they're going to
-
29:36 - 29:38criticize me, and some of it will be
-
29:38 - 29:40true, and a lot of it will be false. And
-
29:40 - 29:42like, you just kind of have to learn to
-
29:42 - 29:45- find peace with that. Otherwise you'll
- (Matt) Mmm -
29:45 - 29:47go crazy. But, yeah, what we have on
-
29:47 - 29:50our hands here with Ms. Rowling is a case
-
29:50 - 29:52of someone who is pathologically
-
29:52 - 29:54incapable of ever letting anything go
-
29:54 - 29:56ever, right?
- Matt: (laughs) Ever. -
29:56 - 29:57Like, I don't think she's ever once
-
29:57 - 29:59admitted to being wrong about a single
-
29:59 - 30:00thing.
-
30:00 - 30:02No, and that includes the Holocaust denial
-
30:02 - 30:04arc, which I'm teasing the listener with
-
30:04 - 30:06cause we're not quite there yet.
-
30:06 - 30:09I wanna return to the role of language
-
30:09 - 30:10in all of this and, like, semantics,
-
30:10 - 30:12right? We're going to be talking about
-
30:12 - 30:15the transphobia serving as a gateway
-
30:15 - 30:17into further right wing, you know, broader
-
30:17 - 30:19right wing ideology. But then I also think
-
30:19 - 30:21that taking it back a step, I think that
-
30:21 - 30:23some people's entry into transphobia are
-
30:23 - 30:26these, like, frankly, like, silly semantic
-
30:26 - 30:28- word arguments.
- (Natalie) Yeah. -
30:28 - 30:31They're erasing the word "women." And so,
-
30:31 - 30:35as another example, what I think is a
-
30:35 - 30:38powerful example of that: Ana Kasparian.
-
30:38 - 30:40So, Ana Kasparian, she's one of the
-
30:40 - 30:42political commentators on the Young Turks,
-
30:42 - 30:45which is one of the bigger and of the
-
30:45 - 30:49earlier left wing political YouTube shows.
-
30:49 - 30:52You know she had her viral, um, "I don't
-
30:52 - 30:54care what the Bible says! I don't, like...
-
30:54 - 30:57(video) "I don't care if you're Christian.
-
30:57 - 30:59In fact, I will fight for you to have
-
30:59 - 31:01your religious liberty and practice
-
31:01 - 31:04your Christianity. I believe in that. I
-
31:04 - 31:06don't believe in Christianity, which means
-
31:06 - 31:08that you do not get to dictate the way I
-
31:08 - 31:11live my life based on your religion.
-
31:11 - 31:14I don't care what the Bible says. You have
-
31:14 - 31:16every right in the world. All those women
-
31:16 - 31:18who identify with your religion have every
-
31:18 - 31:19right in the world to not get an
-
31:19 - 31:21abortion, to not take birth control.
-
31:21 - 31:23But they do not have the right to dictate
-
31:23 - 31:26my life and what I decide to do with
-
31:26 - 31:29my body. I don't care about your godd*mn
-
31:29 - 31:30religion."
-
31:30 - 31:32(Matt) I think she's, like, had some
-
31:32 - 31:34really great things to say over the years.
-
31:34 - 31:36And none of that, none of the education,
-
31:36 - 31:39none of anything stopped her from falling
-
31:39 - 31:42into transphobic semantic rabbit hole
-
31:42 - 31:45last May; like all horrible things that
-
31:45 - 31:47took place on Twitter. So I'm going to
-
31:47 - 31:49send you the tweets.
-
31:49 - 31:51Okay so this first tweet is, "I'm a woman.
-
31:51 - 31:53Please don't ever refer to me as a
-
31:53 - 31:55person with a uterus, birthing person,
-
31:55 - 31:57or person who menstruates. How do
-
31:57 - 31:59people not realize how degrading this is?
-
31:59 - 32:01You can support the transgender community
-
32:01 - 32:02without doing this s***."
-
32:02 - 32:04If you're just taking this tweet at face
-
32:04 - 32:06value, I don't even disagree with it.
-
32:06 - 32:08I think, like, yeah, right, don't, you
-
32:08 - 32:10shouldn't refer to an individual person
-
32:10 - 32:12as a "birthing person," that's weird. I
-
32:12 - 32:15agree. I feel like where I disagree is in
-
32:15 - 32:17the subtext, right? The first question
-
32:17 - 32:20I have is, in what context did someone
-
32:20 - 32:23refer to Anna in this way? Did this
-
32:23 - 32:25happen? Did someone call her
-
32:25 - 32:27(Natalie) "a person who menstruates"?
-
32:27 - 32:29Like, in what context? Was the context
-
32:29 - 32:31on a piece of medical paperwork? Should
-
32:31 - 32:34phrases such as "a person who menstruates"
-
32:34 - 32:36replace the phrase "woman" in everyday
-
32:36 - 32:38English? No, of course not. Who's
-
32:38 - 32:39suggesting that? Is anyone suggesting
-
32:39 - 32:41that? I've never once heard trans person
-
32:41 - 32:43suggest that. So, it's like, we're
-
32:43 - 32:45arguing against this position that,
-
32:45 - 32:46like, who are we arguing against?
-
32:46 - 32:48I don't know. It feels like (stutters) for
-
32:48 - 32:50some reason there's this need to argue
-
32:50 - 32:52against this, like, strong man version of
-
32:52 - 32:54a trans activist, who insist that we stop
-
32:54 - 32:56using the word "women". I've never heard
-
32:56 - 32:58someone claim that. I also think, like,
-
32:58 - 33:00even the extent to which this is used
-
33:00 - 33:02in medical context is overstated. Like, I
-
33:02 - 33:04don't know, I'm thinking of, like, recent
-
33:04 - 33:06times I've interacted with the medical
-
33:06 - 33:08system. I feel like I'm often, you know,
-
33:08 - 33:10when you select your gender on medical
-
33:10 - 33:12paperwork, it's usually male, female,
-
33:12 - 33:16or, like, other (scoffs) and it'll ask
-
33:16 - 33:18you to explain. So, I will usually, like,
-
33:18 - 33:20add, you know, as a context note that
-
33:20 - 33:23I am a transgender woman. So that, in so
-
33:23 - 33:25far as that's medically relevant, it's
-
33:25 - 33:28noted. I have no given birth, nor have I
-
33:28 - 33:30been to the hospital with someone giving
-
33:30 - 33:33birth recently. So, I cannot say what the
-
33:33 - 33:35experience is like. But I guess I'll be
-
33:35 - 33:37curious to know, like, how often, I don't
-
33:37 - 33:39know, if someone is listening this, um,
-
33:39 - 33:41you know, if you, like, had a baby at a
-
33:41 - 33:44hospital recently, like, how frequently
-
33:44 - 33:46were phrases like "birthing person" used?
-
33:46 - 33:48My guess is not very frequently.
-
33:48 - 33:51- So I'm not sure (stammers) It just
- (Matt) Right. -
33:51 - 33:53feels like a sort of imaginary argument
-
33:53 - 33:54that we're having.
-
33:54 - 33:55(Matt) Totally, totally.
-
33:55 - 33:57(stammers) I'm, like, lacking context for,
-
33:57 - 33:59like, where is this occurring? I spend a
-
33:59 - 34:01lot of time around women, actually. And
-
34:01 - 34:03I feel like I don't see the word- I don't
-
34:03 - 34:05see these phrases being thrown around
-
34:05 - 34:07very often these days. And I'm in a very
-
34:07 - 34:09trans inclusive, you know, kind of social
-
34:09 - 34:11- environment. So, you'd think if
- Matt: (laughs) -
34:11 - 34:13lots of people had replaced the word
-
34:13 - 34:16"woman" with "person with a uterus," I
-
34:16 - 34:17think I would have heard that but I
-
34:17 - 34:18haven't.
-
34:18 - 34:20(laughs) Right? So, she's starting to get
-
34:20 - 34:22kind of dogged online and she responds
-
34:22 - 34:26with tweet number two. Please hold...
-
34:27 - 34:28Did you receive?
-
34:29 - 34:30Umm, hold on. Not yet.
-
34:31 - 34:32Oh, wait. Did it not send to you?
-
34:33 - 34:35- I don't see it.
- (Matt) Oh, weird. -
34:35 - 34:37Okay wait let me try again. Maybe I
-
34:37 - 34:39just sent it to the wrong person (laughs)
-
34:39 - 34:41And then out of nowhere you receive it
-
34:41 - 34:42(laughter)
-
34:42 - 34:45and its some tweet from a year ago
-
34:45 - 34:47You might want to figure out who you
-
34:47 - 34:49- just send that to. It could be kind of
- (Matt laughing) -
34:49 - 34:50weird with no context.
-
34:50 - 34:52(laughing continues)
-
34:52 - 34:55Okay tweet two, "LOL. The meltdowns over
-
34:55 - 34:56wanting to be referred to as a woman
-
34:56 - 34:58rather than a "birthing person" is pretty
-
34:58 - 35:00wild. I'll never apologize for that,
-
35:00 - 35:03especially as biological woman who
-
35:03 - 35:05has had a f****** lifetime of being
-
35:05 - 35:07told I'm less than. I'm a woman. No
-
35:07 - 35:11apologies," (sighs) So, again it's like, I
-
35:11 - 35:13don't know, a lot of this type of
-
35:13 - 35:16transphobic stuff comes from a kind of,
-
35:16 - 35:19like, misdirected frustration with
-
35:19 - 35:22misogyny. Anna reacted with, "Oh, people
-
35:22 - 35:24are sort of forcing me to be called
-
35:24 - 35:25the 'birthing person', and then that's
-
35:25 - 35:28sort of somehow erasing the lifetime of
-
35:28 - 35:30misogyny that I've had to experience
-
35:30 - 35:32as a woman." I mean, I think it's like a
-
35:32 - 35:34kind of scapegoat in a way. I feel that,
-
35:34 - 35:35like, a lot of times, like, people who
-
35:35 - 35:37get (stutters) into this gender critical
-
35:37 - 35:39talking points, it's often a kind of,
-
35:39 - 35:41like, displaced rage and frustration at
-
35:41 - 35:43experiences of misogyny, often in, like,
-
35:43 - 35:45leftist spaces, right? Cause that's a
-
35:45 - 35:47real thing. Misogyny is pretty rampant on
-
35:47 - 35:50the left as it is everywhere. And I think
-
35:50 - 35:52that a lot of women find that hard to
-
35:52 - 35:54complain about. And it's difficult in part
-
35:54 - 35:57because men usually are in power. I don't
-
35:57 - 35:59know, you kind of, as a woman, you kind
-
35:59 - 36:01of have to, like, pander to men to get
-
36:01 - 36:03through the day to some extent.
-
36:03 - 36:03(Matt) Yeah
-
36:03 - 36:05So, it's like frightening to take a stand
-
36:05 - 36:07against men. But trans people this kind
-
36:07 - 36:09of, like, hated minority that is sort of
-
36:09 - 36:11easy to, like, it's kind of easy to,
-
36:11 - 36:13like, dump all of your, like, frustrations
-
36:13 - 36:15and rage onto trans people because
-
36:15 - 36:18there's a social momentum behind that
-
36:18 - 36:20in a way that there sort of isn't against,
-
36:20 - 36:22like, I don't know, frustration with
-
36:22 - 36:24misogyny and leftist spaces, for example.
-
36:24 - 36:26I honestly kinda feel bad for Ana reading
-
36:26 - 36:28these tweets because obviously there's
-
36:28 - 36:30some massive life, as she says, a lifetime
-
36:30 - 36:33of, like, of difficult experiences that's
-
36:33 - 36:36behind this. And it's blowing up now, but
-
36:36 - 36:39it's choosing as its target, this very
-
36:39 - 36:41weird thing that seems to me, to be
-
36:41 - 36:42slightly off topic.
-
36:42 - 36:45So these tweets are in March. And then in
-
36:45 - 36:50July, she is still kind of stuck on
-
36:50 - 36:52this transgender issue. In a discussion
-
36:52 - 36:55about various social justice movements
-
36:55 - 36:57and their methods for accomplishing
-
36:57 - 37:00their goals, she tweets what I have
-
37:00 - 37:01selected as to be tweet number three.
-
37:01 - 37:03Which I will send to you now.
-
37:03 - 37:06- Oh, this one (scoffs) Yeah this is...
- (Matt laughs) -
37:06 - 37:08Okay, and see this is (stutters)
okay, this -
37:08 - 37:10tweet- I know I'm talking about the
-
37:10 - 37:11tweet before I've read it. But I do feel
-
37:11 - 37:13that this tweet that I'm about to read,
-
37:13 - 37:15it really kind of does showcase the way
-
37:15 - 37:19that transphobia is kind of a red flag and
-
37:19 - 37:22it's often the prelude to a whole bunch
-
37:22 - 37:25of nonsense. Okay (breaths deeply)
-
37:25 - 37:27Ana Kasparian quote, "The Civil Rights
-
37:27 - 37:29Movement did not use the same strategies
-
37:29 - 37:31as the trans movement. They didn't
-
37:31 - 37:34barricade speakers they disagreed with in
-
37:34 - 37:35a classroom for three hours. They
-
37:35 - 37:37persuaded through non-violence and
-
37:37 - 37:39showing America their humanity."
-
37:39 - 37:44So this is (exhales) this is basically the
-
37:44 - 37:47entire thing that the podcast called,
-
37:47 - 37:49"The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling" was
-
37:49 - 37:51about, um. This was what the podcast with
-
37:51 - 37:53Megan Phelps-Roper of Westboro Baptist
-
37:53 - 37:56Church fame, uh and J.K. Rowling. A lot
-
37:56 - 37:59of the argument was, like, "Oh, what we
-
37:59 - 38:01really hate about the trans movement is
-
38:01 - 38:03they use, like, illiberal methods. And
-
38:03 - 38:06it's so unlike all past movements. Like
-
38:06 - 38:08Gay Rights wasn't like this, and Women's
-
38:08 - 38:10Rights wasn't like this, and the Civil
-
38:10 - 38:12Rights Movement, they never did anything
-
38:12 - 38:14violent and they were always polite and
-
38:14 - 38:16they never raised their voices and they
-
38:16 - 38:18never called people names." And it's just,
-
38:18 - 38:20like, "Well I'm sorry that is historically
-
38:20 - 38:21not true."
-
38:21 - 38:23And it's so jarring to see someone like
-
38:23 - 38:26- Ana Kasparian, who knows all of that,
- (Natalie) Knows, yeah. -
38:26 - 38:28though. She knows all of that. I mean, all
-
38:28 - 38:30of these movements had (stammers)
-
38:30 - 38:32You think about that one famous, uh,
-
38:32 - 38:35clip of Angela Davis talking about, like,
-
38:35 - 38:37whether or not she endorses violence.
-
38:37 - 38:39And she's just like, "Well, whether or not
-
38:39 - 38:41I endorse it is besides the point.
-
38:41 - 38:43Violence is the only thing I've ever known
-
38:43 - 38:44as a black person in America. "
-
38:44 - 38:46Have these people heard of Malcolm X?
-
38:46 - 38:48Have they heard (stammers and scoffs)
-
38:48 - 38:49Stonewall! Like, come on!
-
38:49 - 38:51What do these people think the Civil
-
38:51 - 38:53Rights Movement was? Like, I mean, it's
-
38:53 - 38:55literally every one of these movements,
-
38:55 - 38:57too. Like, I mean, again, people think of
-
38:57 - 38:59Women's Suffrage assumes to be like,
you know, -
38:59 - 39:01you think of the women marching with
-
39:01 - 39:03their banners and it's like, "Oh, they
-
39:03 - 39:05just had to show people their humanity by
-
39:05 - 39:07being peaceful," and it's like, churches
-
39:07 - 39:10were firebombed (scoffs) by suffragettes
-
39:10 - 39:11in the U.K. People were physically,
-
39:11 - 39:13they were murdered for Women's Suffrage.
-
39:13 - 39:15Which is not to say that I am endorsing
-
39:15 - 39:17these violent methods, but it's like,
-
39:17 - 39:18I'm about to get so demonetized.
-
39:18 - 39:20Wait, hold on, I can- let me rephrase that
-
39:20 - 39:22People were unalived
(Matt laughs) -
39:22 - 39:25People were unalived
in the name of women's suffrage, right, -
39:25 - 39:30churches became more on fire
than they previously had been, -
39:30 - 39:34in the name of women's suffrage, right,
-
39:34 - 39:35like, this is the historical reality
-
39:35 - 39:38that people forget because it's
sort of more comfortable I guess -
39:38 - 39:41to assume that like, oh,
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. just had to -
39:41 - 39:45get up on a podium and say "I have a dream, look
-
39:45 - 39:48I'm human and then all the white people clapped and said
-
39:48 - 39:51"Yes, let's have rights for all"
and it's like no, that's not what happened -
39:51 - 39:55To desegregate schools in Alabama,
president Eisenhower had to -
39:55 - 40:00send in the army, desegregation happened
at gunpoint, it was not a peaceful process -
40:00 - 40:04I hope that trans rights can be
accomplished with less violence than that, -
40:04 - 40:07and I think, in fact, there's no reason
why that shouldn't be the case -
40:07 - 40:13But to suggest that the trans rights movement
is this uniquely violent- it's just isn't -
40:13 - 40:15It just isn't. It's just false.
-
40:15 - 40:19You've tead me up. We've arrived at
Holocaust denialism. -
40:19 - 40:21We sure have.
-
40:21 - 40:25Two weeks ago, JK Rowling
saw a tweet someone had written to her -
40:25 - 40:31"The Nazis burnt books on trans healthcare
and research, why are you so desperate -
40:31 - 40:33to uphold their ideology around gender?"
-
40:33 - 40:37And, this obviously pissed her off a lot,
because she screenshotted it -
40:37 - 40:40and, uh, tweeted it out to her
own audience, -
40:40 - 40:42with the additional caption,
where she wrote, -
40:42 - 40:46"I just....how How did you type this out
and press send without thinking -
40:46 - 40:50'I should maybe check my source for this,
because it might've been a fever dream?'" -
40:50 - 40:53And, I just want to add,
before we get into any of this, -
40:53 - 41:00my favorite thing about this exchange
is that the tweet which JK Rowling took -
41:00 - 41:05which accused her of sharing the Nazi's
ideaology on, uh, trans healthcare, -
41:05 - 41:07the tweet has five views.
-
41:07 - 41:08Not likes.
-
41:09 - 41:09Wow.
-
41:09 - 41:11It has five views. That is zero likes.
-
41:11 - 41:16That is, like, you get five views on
a tweet just by it existing in the ether. -
41:16 - 41:20Yeah, that is a-I mean I've almost
never seen a tweet with that few views. -
41:20 - 41:24She- [laughing] she went out of her way
-
41:24 - 41:27to find a tweet that would allow her to
-
41:27 - 41:29participate in Holocaust denial.
-
41:29 - 41:31It was like she had to chase this one.
-
41:31 - 41:34Yeah, that makes it all the more baffling
because it's, like, -
41:34 - 41:37okay, I understand why you would say-
why you would start doing -
41:37 - 41:40a little casual Holocaust denial
in the heat of the moment, -
41:40 - 41:42because, if, I don't know,
you were like on the spot -
41:42 - 41:45and like, I don't know, someone was-
someone was- someone had you -
41:45 - 41:49backed into a corner and you were just,
like, said whatever you thought you needed -
41:49 - 41:51to say to win the argument-
-
41:51 - 41:51[Matt] Right
-
41:51 - 41:55-but it's like, this is just, like,
this is just like freeform, like, -
41:55 - 41:56completely, like, out of the blue.
-
41:56 - 42:00You know what, I've been searching
around the dark corners of Twitter lately -
42:00 - 42:04and I feel like today is the day
I shall begin denying the Holocaust. -
42:04 - 42:05[Matt laughing]
-
42:05 - 42:07Like, like what?
-
42:08 - 42:12You need to buy a yacht and just
go on it! -
42:12 - 42:15So she tweet this, right?
And so the person accuses- -
42:15 - 42:20the person's claim is that Nazis burnt
books on trans healthcare and research, -
42:20 - 42:23and JK Rowling says that they must be
experiencing a fever dream -
42:23 - 42:24to have claim that.
-
42:24 - 42:25That is absolutely true.
-
42:25 - 42:31The Nazis did ban, uh, hordes of books,
of some of the earliest and most important -
42:31 - 42:34at the time books on trans healthcare and
research. -
42:34 - 42:36Specifically what this person is referencing,
-
42:36 - 42:41is, uh, the burning of the library of
the Institute for Sexual Research. -
42:41 - 42:43So, just, a little bit of quick history:
-
42:43 - 42:47There was this young doctor, young gay doctor,
-
42:47 - 42:49in Germany, his name was
Magnus Hirschfeld, -
42:49 - 42:55in 1919, he opened the-
I'm gonna, I'm gonna do my best German voice- -
42:55 - 42:57the Institute for Sexualwissenschaft.
-
42:57 - 43:01Which, translates roughly to
the Institute for Sexual Research. -
43:01 - 43:05It was the first sexology research center
in the world. -
43:05 - 43:09You know, Hirschfeld was gay,
he had grown up in a deeply homophobic -
43:09 - 43:14era of Germany, he was super
traumatized, not only by being gay -
43:14 - 43:17but witnessing homophobia against
other queer people. -
43:17 - 43:21He would later go on to talk about having
witnessed in medical school, -
43:21 - 43:26watching a fellow gay student who was
trotted out naked in front of a class -
43:26 - 43:31to be humiliated by the rest of the class
for being a quote-unquote degenerate. -
43:31 - 43:35So, at this Institute of Sexual Research,
which he opened, -
43:35 - 43:38he basically had all of these gay and
trans patients -
43:38 - 43:41who he would treat for various
needs. -
43:41 - 43:45There were anti-crossdressing laws
in Germany at the time, and he -
43:45 - 43:51would get his trans patients this, like,
special transgender ID card -
43:51 - 43:55that, like, by today's standards would be,
y'know, strange and demoralizing, -
43:55 - 43:59but at the time, it actually legally
protected them from being prosecuted -
43:59 - 44:01under these crossdressing laws.
-
44:01 - 44:06If the cops came up to you, you were like,
"Here's my trans ID, see I'm a certified -
44:06 - 44:09transgender," and then they'd be like,
"Okay, you're-" y'know, -
44:09 - 44:14Magnus Hirschfeld was- this was, like,
gay-trans, like, cis gay to trans allyship. -
44:14 - 44:20Also in the Institute of Sexual Research,
there was among the first libraries -
44:20 - 44:22about sexuality and gender.
-
44:22 - 44:27And this guy was collecting research
a hundred years ago on these topics -
44:27 - 44:30that would be considered progressive today.
-
44:30 - 44:34Um, there was some of the earliest
literature on the various gender-affirming -
44:34 - 44:37surgeries, and by 1930,
the Institute was performing some of the -
44:37 - 44:41first, you know, what we think of today
as modern gender-affirming surgeries -
44:41 - 44:42in the world.
-
44:42 - 44:43And who was one of his patients?
-
44:43 - 44:44Lili Elbe.
-
44:44 - 44:45Lili Elbe!
-
44:45 - 44:46The Danish girl.
-
44:48 - 44:50Was one of his patients!
-
44:50 - 44:52You know, so, the Nazi party comes to rise,
-
44:52 - 44:57and Hitler wanted to cleanse society of
you know, what he deemed lives -
44:57 - 44:58unworthy of living.
-
44:58 - 45:04On May 6th, 1933, the Nazis raided
the Institute of Sexual Research, -
45:04 - 45:07and burned 20,000 of its books
in the street. -
45:07 - 45:12And, this was, like, very famously, like,
one of the first Nazi book burnings. -
45:12 - 45:15Like, there are photos of it, this isn't,
like, deep buried- -
45:15 - 45:17No, it's not obscure. It's not obscure stuff.
-
45:17 - 45:21It's like one of the most famous photos
of Nazi book burning, -
45:21 - 45:23which I guarantee most people have seen.
-
45:23 - 45:26And, so, this initial tweet that
JK Rowling called this person -
45:26 - 45:28basically insane for writing was
-
45:28 - 45:32"The Nazis burnt books on trans healthcare
and research. Why are you so desperate -
45:32 - 45:34to uphold their ideology around gender?"
-
45:34 - 45:36And so this is just factually true.
-
45:36 - 45:41Right? Like, whatever you think of
JK Rowling, like, the Nazis did do that, -
45:41 - 45:45and she does share their view on trans
healthcare in gen- -
45:45 - 45:47like, that's just what's happening.
-
45:47 - 45:51And so, people start to point out
that, like, babe, you know, -
45:51 - 45:55you're doing a little bit of Holocaust
denial by saying that this didn't happen. -
45:55 - 45:59Alejandra Caraballo, who is a notable
trans person on Twitter, -
45:59 - 46:03she responded, writing, "You're
engaging in Holocaust denial." -
46:03 - 46:07JK Rowling responds, "Neither of your
articles support the contention that trans -
46:07 - 46:12people were the first victims of the Nazis
or that all research on trans healthcare -
46:12 - 46:16was burned in 1930s Germany.
You are engaging in lying, Alejandra." -
46:16 - 46:19So, she responds by being, like,
pedantic. -
46:19 - 46:22I don't know, it's hard to take-
it's hard to respect this. -
46:22 - 46:25It's not engaging at all with, like,
the spirit of what anyone is saying. -
46:25 - 46:28I mean, so, first of all, like, we can get-
I mean, we can, and it is interesting, -
46:28 - 46:32like, to dive into the actual, like,
historical record of this, -
46:32 - 46:35and the way that some of the, you know,
first, like, Nazi book burnings were, -
46:35 - 46:40in fact, targeting an early library of
books about gay rights and about -
46:40 - 46:43transgender, you know, medicine.
-
46:43 - 46:48But it also, you know, like,
even without talking about the factual -
46:48 - 46:51record, like, like, let's think
big picture here. -
46:51 - 46:56Do we really think that the National
Socialist Party was [stammers] -
46:56 - 46:59would have just been fine with transgender
people? Like, right? -
46:59 - 47:02Like, oh, no, they're against the gays,
and they're against the Jews, -
47:02 - 47:06and they're against the Romani, but
sure, that the- the transvestites, -
47:06 - 47:07yeah we love them!
-
47:07 - 47:08Like, like, what?
-
47:08 - 47:12I mean, and of course, we can verify
historically that, yes, trans people -
47:12 - 47:12were persecuted.
-
47:12 - 47:16I- I've seen a lot of what I consider
extremely bad faith discourse about this -
47:16 - 47:20controversy with people saying, like,
"Well, the Nazis didn't have, like, the -
47:20 - 47:22category transgender, which is a more
recent invention," -
47:22 - 47:26and yes, that's true, but, like,
okay the Nazis didn't officially persecute -
47:26 - 47:29lesbians, either, because I don't think
that- because, I mean, if you look -
47:29 - 47:31at the history of, like, lesbophobia,
-
47:31 - 47:36often the form that lesbophobia takes
is that lesbians are just not seen as real, -
47:36 - 47:41right? It's just sort of not acknowledged,
even, as a valid phenomenon, where -
47:41 - 47:45male homosexuality is seen as degeneracy,
and then that's something to be persecuted. -
47:45 - 47:50Oftentimes, it's just kind of like flatly
denied that lesbians exist. -
47:50 - 47:54Now, does that just say that no lesbians
were persecuted in the Holocaust? -
47:54 - 47:55Almost certainly not.
-
47:55 - 47:58I know that like the Nazis had these
categories of like asocial. -
47:58 - 47:59[Matt] Correct.
-
47:59 - 48:02Like, this like, it's like a black triangle
that's like the badge- -
48:02 - 48:02[Matt] Yeah
-
48:02 - 48:05-and I think that a lot of
queer women were sort of -
48:05 - 48:08killed on the, on the basis of
being asocial, quote unquote. -
48:08 - 48:12So, this kind of, pedantry of being
kind of, well, technically the Nazis -
48:12 - 48:15didn't use the wo- like, okay,
but they [stammers] they still killed -
48:15 - 48:18queer women, and they still
killed trans people. -
48:18 - 48:22So, like, why are you playing this
pedantic game to- -
48:22 - 48:26why- because [stammers] they're
engaging in denial of transphobia, right? -
48:26 - 48:29[Matt] Well, and it's so exhausting too
because she writes, -
48:29 - 48:33"The contention that trans people were the
first victims of the Nazis were that all -
48:33 - 48:37or that all research on trans healthcare
was burned in the 1930s." -
48:37 - 48:40And it's like she's arguing against the
point that nobody made. -
48:40 - 48:43[Natalie] Yeah, she didn't say that-
did Alejandra say that? -
48:43 - 48:44[Matt] No!
-
48:44 - 48:47[Natalie] Did she say that every single
piece of research was destroyed? -
48:47 - 48:51[Matt] No! Alejandra didn't say that,
and the original tweet that JK Rowling -
48:51 - 48:54said was insane, once again, just said,
"The Nazis burned books on trans healthcare -
48:54 - 48:55and research."
-
48:55 - 48:56That was the claim.
-
48:56 - 49:00[Natalie] Yeah, so she's consistently,
like, arguing against positions that no one -
49:00 - 49:01has taken.
-
49:01 - 49:04[Matt] Correct, and it's, like,
instead of ever admitting fault, -
49:04 - 49:09and, right, and- and she just
shifts the goalpost over and over. -
49:09 - 49:11And then that leads you-
-
49:11 - 49:15Really, with transphobia or with anything
like if you refuse to admit fault in -
49:15 - 49:18anything that you say, you will keep
shifting the goalpost because -
49:18 - 49:21that will be the only way, that,
in your head, you can maintain -
49:21 - 49:23the upper hand in an argument.
-
49:23 - 49:28This refusal to admit being wrong ever
leads you to some fucking whacky places. -
49:28 - 49:31It led her to Holocaust denialism, and it
led Ana Kasparian to saying that -
49:31 - 49:35the Civil Rights Movement was entirely
peaceful. -
49:35 - 49:38Which, she knows that that's not true!
-
49:38 - 49:41[Natalie] Well, it's like, if you make-
if you can never admit that you're wrong -
49:41 - 49:45about anything, if you make one wrong
turn, you'll never get on the right path -
49:45 - 49:46again.
-
49:46 - 49:47[Matt] Right.
-
49:47 - 49:51[Natalie] Because if you don't admit that
you've made a wrong turn, then you -
49:51 - 49:52can't correct it.
-
49:52 - 49:57So, I feel like that is part of the-
the fallacy that's going on here -
49:57 - 50:00where, like, okay, JK Rowling can't
admit that she was ever wrong about -
50:00 - 50:04anything, and so, she has no choice but
to double down and triple down and -
50:04 - 50:09quadruple down and just keep walking
in this terrible direction, basically, right? -
50:09 - 50:11To completely mix my metaphors.
-
50:11 - 50:15That's why she has, and will continue to
say more absurd and dangerous things; -
50:15 - 50:21because that is the only option
that she has, if she can't admit -
50:21 - 50:24that she made a wrong turn somewhere.
-
50:24 - 50:27[Matt] I want to talk a little bit
about this, like, transphobia to, like, -
50:27 - 50:29general right-wing madness pipeline
a little bit. -
50:29 - 50:35Media Matters conducted this study where
they made a TikTok account -
50:35 - 50:39and in that TikTok account, they only
liked exclusively anti-trans content -
50:39 - 50:44to see what the For You Page algorithm
would then feed the account. -
50:44 - 50:50Very quickly, the videos-
and they did an analysis of like four hundred -
50:50 - 50:52videos that TikTok then fed into their
-
50:52 - 50:53For You Page-
-
50:53 - 50:57did not just keep feeding them transphobic
videos, but racist videos, misogynistic -
50:57 - 51:03videos, anti-vax and kind of other
right-wing conspiracy theories, -
51:03 - 51:06a lot of antisemetic conspiracy theories,
-
51:06 - 51:07type content
-
51:07 - 51:08I think thats interesting
-
51:08 - 51:10because I think it reflects what
-
51:10 - 51:12we see when poeple engange with
-
51:12 - 51:14transphobia in real life.
-
51:14 - 51:16And so, what do you think,
-
51:16 - 51:18first of all, what do you think makes
-
51:18 - 51:19tranpohobia, um, including this like
-
51:19 - 51:22terf-y transphobic feminism thing, like
-
51:22 - 51:23what do you think makes it a
-
51:23 - 51:25fundamentally right wing idiology,
-
51:25 - 51:28and one that is so affective and sucks
-
51:28 - 51:29people in that way?
-
51:29 - 51:31[Natalie]
Well, I think, yeah, I definitley think -
51:31 - 51:33thats true, that transphobia is a gateway
-
51:33 - 51:36bigotry, like its often will be like the
-
51:36 - 51:40prelude to a bunch more other forms of
-
51:40 - 51:42bigorty that people, I feel like feel
-
51:42 - 51:44I think transphobia is sort of a socially
-
51:44 - 51:45acceptable still,
[Matt] Mhm -
51:45 - 51:47[Natalie] Than a lot of other forms of
-
51:47 - 51:49bigotry, so that will often be the one
-
51:49 - 51:51that people decide to publicly declare
-
51:51 - 51:53but I also think that, what is it about
-
51:53 - 51:55transphobia that makes it distinctivley
-
51:55 - 51:57right-wing? And I feel like it has to do
-
51:57 - 51:59with the kind- of structure of basically
-
51:59 - 52:02scapegoating a vulnerable minority, and
-
52:02 - 52:04then blaming them for various social
-
52:04 - 52:07problems, right? So I feel that predjudice
-
52:07 - 52:10usually sort of operates that way, or its
-
52:10 - 52:12one common type of prejudice right?
-
52:12 - 52:14And a case of someone like J.K Rowling,
-
52:14 - 52:16It seems like trans people are kind of
-
52:16 - 52:18functionally taking the place of
-
52:18 - 52:22patriarchy right? In her arguments, so
-
52:22 - 52:24like where the left- wing person would
-
52:24 - 52:26notice the kind of structure of power,
-
52:26 - 52:28and the kind of broader inequalities
-
52:28 - 52:30you know, that are the reason why women
-
52:30 - 52:33are opressed, instead of doing that, you
-
52:33 - 52:35take the kind of way that right- wing
-
52:35 - 52:37women go, which is, you almost sort of
-
52:37 - 52:39accept the patriarchy as natural and
-
52:39 - 52:42inevitable, and you instead displace that
-
52:42 - 52:46frustration onto immigrants, onto
[Matt] Mhmmm -
52:46 - 52:48you know, instead of complaining about
-
52:48 - 52:51you know, men, men who are your brothers
-
52:51 - 52:53or you complain about muslim men, right?
-
52:53 - 52:56Or you complain about the Jews, or you
-
52:56 - 52:58complain about, in this case, trans people
-
52:58 - 53:00Umm, (Stammers), In the 70s, for
-
53:00 - 53:02Anita Bryant, it was gay people, right?
-
53:02 - 53:05It's this kind of, sort of shifting
-
53:05 - 53:07scapegoat and trans people
-
53:07 - 53:09are the curent scapegoat of choice for
-
53:09 - 53:10a lot of people.
-
53:10 - 53:12But, it, the strucutre of argument and
-
53:12 - 53:14the psychology behind it is very
-
53:14 - 53:17similar to like, many many other, you know
-
53:17 - 53:20bigoted movements, I mean I think also
-
53:20 - 53:22theres this element of amnesia,
-
53:22 - 53:24where people sort of forget how similar
-
53:24 - 53:26this current world panic is to like
-
53:26 - 53:29homophobia from the Bush era.
-
53:29 - 53:30[Matt] Totally
-
53:30 - 53:32[Natalie] Including things like, the
-
53:32 - 53:34linguistic obsession, like why?
-
53:34 - 53:36Does no one remember the arguments that
-
53:36 - 53:40people used to have back then? I guess
I'm just old, but people used to -
53:40 - 53:41[Laughter]
-
53:41 - 53:44Like I don't know, I remember the 2000s,
I remember people having a similar -
53:44 - 53:47semantic hang up on the word marriage,
-
53:47 - 53:50where like, I don't know, like the phrase
-
53:50 - 53:53"Her wife" Right? Was seen by a lot of
-
53:53 - 53:56people as like, not just like sacreligious
-
53:56 - 53:59as blasphemy, as a kind of sin, but also
-
53:59 - 54:02as a kind of, like, an attack on, like
-
54:02 - 54:04meaning itself. An attack on the English
-
54:04 - 54:08language, like "Her wife", being this like
-
54:08 - 54:11total nonsense, right? In the same way
-
54:11 - 54:12that I think like "His uterus",
-
54:12 - 54:14or whatever, seems to create upset with
-
54:14 - 54:16people today
-[Matt] Mmmm -
54:16 - 54:18[Natalie] Umm, right so again (Stammers)
-
54:18 - 54:20"They're re-defining marriage" That was
-
54:20 - 54:23such, like a slogan, in those days,
-
54:23 - 54:27it sort of avoids taking a political
-
54:27 - 54:29stance, like really what they're mad about
-
54:29 - 54:31is the social equality of gay people.
-
54:31 - 54:34Right? But the way that they present their
-
54:34 - 54:36argument is as if they're like, I don't
-
54:36 - 54:39know, pettance about grammar, or
-
54:39 - 54:41something, there was really concerns,
-
54:41 - 54:43there was words being redefined
-
54:43 - 54:46which, I don't know it doesn't make sense
-
54:46 - 54:49for that to be something that you feel
passionate about in my opinion -
54:49 - 54:52but it's because thats not what they're
really passionate about right? -
54:52 - 54:57The semantic thing is a cover for a social
and political thing. So I see transphobia -
54:57 - 54:59in the 2020s, as like , sort of almost
-
54:59 - 55:01functionally identical to homophobia in
-
55:01 - 55:03the 2000s, in terms of like, the role
-
55:03 - 55:05that it plays in politics, and in terms of
-
55:05 - 55:08the types of arguments that people make
in it's favor -
55:08 - 55:10[Matt] And speaking about gay, something
-
55:10 - 55:12that J.K. Rowling does a lot is like speak
-
55:12 - 55:15on behalf of concerned lesbians, she does
-
55:15 - 55:17a lot of this posting which, I don't know
-
55:17 - 55:20if you have feelings about this but she
does a lot of this posting about like, -
55:20 - 55:21you know,
-
55:21 - 55:23"All of the work that gays fought for
-
55:23 - 55:27bravely is being undone by radical trans
activists" and its like J.K. Rowling, -
55:27 - 55:31first of all, you are not gay. (laughter)
[Natalie] Yeah. -
55:31 - 55:33[Matt] Take a seat, but it's also like,
-
55:33 - 55:35it pi**** me off too because she does
-
55:35 - 55:37this, she has more of a reach that like,
-
55:37 - 55:40almost any gay person in the world, and
-
55:40 - 55:42she does this thing where she'll speak on
-
55:42 - 55:43behalf of gay people being like
-
55:43 - 55:46"Gays don't want"
She echoes the like, -
55:46 - 55:50"Gays want a divorce from the trans and
queer people" you know, -
55:50 - 55:53"Political divorce". She does that
rhetoric a lot, and I'm like -
55:53 - 55:56you're not gay, you don't know what the
f*** you're talking about -
55:56 - 56:00and also like, the majority of cis gay
people are entirely cool with trans people -
56:00 - 56:02and down with the cause,
-
56:02 - 56:04So what the hell are you talking about!?
-
56:04 - 56:06[Natalie] Yeah it's one of the most
disgusting, honestly -
56:06 - 56:09things that she does, I think it's the
way she constantly- -
56:09 - 56:13insetead of speaking for herself, in the
first person, she constantly speaks -
56:13 - 56:18particularly chooses lesbians as the kind
of banner for whatever she wants to say -
56:18 - 56:24and she (Stammers) charitably, or like
chivalrously, almost like defending the -
56:24 - 56:25lesbians,
[Matt] Totally -
56:25 - 56:28[Natalie] (Stammers) As if thats the
reason she's involved in this -
56:28 - 56:30and, again it just
-
56:30 - 56:32the claims again don't make any sense,
right? -
56:32 - 56:36"Oh we're eroding all the rights that gay
activists fought for" -
56:36 - 56:39Okay which rights are those? Did gay
activists fight for the rights not to use -
56:39 - 56:42trans peoples pronouns?
[Matt] (Laughter) -
56:42 - 56:46[Natalie] Like which part of the gay
rights struggle did that occur in? -
56:46 - 56:47And the thing is true like
-
56:47 - 56:50"Oh womens rights are being eroded, the
rights that we fought so hard for" -
56:50 - 56:53And it's like well, but which rights? This
-
56:53 - 56:55is just not a thing in the history of
feminism.
- Title:
- J.K. Rowling’s Spiral into Madness (with ContraPoints)
- Description:
-
From “sex is real” to Holocaust denial — if it happened to the wizard lady, it can happen to you.
Support me on Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/mattbernstein
Watch more from Natalie Wynn a.k.a. ContraPoints: https://www.youtube.com/@ContraPoints
Find more of A Bit Fruity: https://www.instagram.com/abitfruitypod/?hl=en
Find more of Matt: https://www.instagram.com/mattxiv/?hl=en - Video Language:
- English
- Team:
Captions Requested
- Duration:
- 01:20:07
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Oliver Scaife edited English subtitles for J.K. Rowling’s Spiral into Madness (with ContraPoints) | |
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Oliver Scaife edited English subtitles for J.K. Rowling’s Spiral into Madness (with ContraPoints) | |
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Oliver Scaife edited English subtitles for J.K. Rowling’s Spiral into Madness (with ContraPoints) | |
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cmwhite edited English subtitles for J.K. Rowling’s Spiral into Madness (with ContraPoints) |