Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham - HD

Is creation a viable model of origins in today's modern, scientific era? Leading creation apologist and bestselling Christian author Ken Ham is joined at the Creation Museum by Emmy Award-winning science educator and CEO of the Planetary Society Bill Nye.

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Now, where was I? Oh, yes.

In 2014, kids 12 and under come free.

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For the entire year, kids 12 and under come free.

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Kids 12 and under free in 2014 when accompanied by a paying adult.

We hope to see you soon!

Good evening. I'm pleased to welcome you to Legacy Hall

of the Creation Museum in Northern Kentucky

in the metropolitan area of Cincinnati.

I'm Tom Foreman from CNN and I'm pleased to be tonight's

moderator for this Evolution versus Creation debate.

This is a very old question! Where did we come from?

My answer is from Washington this morning by airplane.

(laughter from audience)

But there is a much more profound, longer answer

that people have sought after for a long time.

So tonight's question to be debated is the following:

Is Creation a viable model of origins in today's modern, scientific era?

Our welcome extends to hundreds of thousands of people

who are watching on the internet at debatelive.org.

We're glad you have joined us.

Of course, your auditorium here,

all of the folks who've joined us as well.

We're joined by 70 media representatives from many

of the world's great news organizations.

We're glad to have them here as well.

And now let's welcome our debaters: Mr. Bill Nye and Mr. Ken Ham.

(audience applauds)

We had a coin toss earlier to determine

who would go first of these two men.

The only thing missing was Joe Namath in a fur coat.

But it went very well. Mr. Ham won the coin toss

and he opted to speak first. But first, let me tell you

a little bit about both of these gentlemen.

Mr. Nye's website describes him as a scientist,

engineer, comedian, author, and inventor.

Mr Nye, as you may know, produced a number of award-winning TV shows,

including a program he became so well-known for:

Bill Nye the Science Guy.

While working on the Science Guy show, Mr. Nye won

seven national Emmy awards for writing, performing,

and producing the show. Won 18 Emmys in five years!

In between creating the shows, he wrote five kids books about science,

including his latest title, Bill Nye's Great Big Book of Tiny Germs.

Billy Nye is the host of three television series:

his program, "The 100 Greatest Discoveries"--

it airs on the Science Channel. "The Eyes of Nye"--

airs on PBS stations across the country. He frequenly appears

on interview programs to discuss a variety of science topics.

Mr. Nye serves as Executive Director of the Planetary Society,

the world's largest space interest group.

He is a graduate of Cornell, with a Bachelors

of Science degree in Mechanical Engineering.

Mr. Ken Ham is the president and co-founder of Answers in Genesis,

a bible-defending organization that upholds the authority

of the scriptures from the very first verse.

Mr. Ham is the man behind the popular, high-tech

Creation Museum, where we're holding this debate.

The museum has had 2 million visitors in six years

and has attracted much of the world's media.

The Answers in Genesis website, as well, trafficked

with 2 million visitors alone last month. Mr. Ham is also

a best-selling author, a much in-demand speaker,

and the host of a daily radio feature carried on 700 plus stations.

This is his second public debate on Evolution and Creation.

The first was at Harvard, in the 1990s.

Mr. Ham is a native of Australia. He earned

a Bachelors degree in Applied Science, with an emphasis in

Environmental Biology, from the Queensland's Institute of Technology,

as well as a Diploma of Education at the University

of Queensland in Brisbon, Australia.

And now...Mr. Ham, you opted to go first, so you will

be first with your five minute opening statement.

Well, good evening. I know that not everyone watching

this debate will necessarily agree with what I have to say,

but I'm an Aussie and live over here in America

and they tell me I have an accent and so it doesn't matter

what I say, some people tell me. We just like to hear you saying it. (laughter)

So...um...I hope you enjoy me saying it anyway.

Well, the debate topic is this: Is Creation

a viable model of origins in today's modern scientific era?

You know, when this was first announced on the internet,

there were lots of statements-- like this one

from the Richard Dawkins Foundation.

"Scientists should not debate Creationists. Period."

And this one from one of the Discovery.com websites.

"Should Scientists Debate Creationists?"

You know, right here I believe there's a gross misrepresentation

in our culture. We're seeing people being indoctrinated

to believe that Creationists can't be Scientists.

I believe it's all a part of secularists hi-jacking the word "Science".

I want you to meet a modern-day scientist who's a Biblical Creationist.

My name is Stuart Burgess.

I'm a professor of Engineering Design at Bristol University in the U.K.

I have published over 130 scientific papers on

the science of design in Engineering and Biological systems.

From my research work, I have found that the scientific evidence

fully supports Creationism as the best explanation to origins.

I've also designed major parts of spacecrafts,

launched by ESA and NASA.

So here's a biblical Creationist,

who's a scientist, who's also an inventor.

And I want young people to understand that.

You know, the problem, I believe, is this: we need to define terms correctly.

We need to define Creation/Evolution in regard to origins

and we need to define science. And in this opening statement,

I want to concentrate on dealing with the word "science".

I believe the word "science" has been hijacked by secularists.

Now, what is science?

Well, the origin of the word comes from the Classical Latin "scientia",

which means "to know". And if you look up a dictionary,

it'll say science means "the state of knowing, knowledge".

But there's different types of knowledge and I believe

this is where the confusion lies.

There's experimental or observational sciences, as we call it.

That's using the scientific method, observation,

measurement, experiment, testing. That's what produces

our technology, computers, spacecraft, jet planes,

smoke detectors, looking at DNA, antibiotics, medicines and vaccines.

You see, all scientists, whether Creationists or Evolutionists,

actually have the same observational or experimental science.

And it doesn't matter whether you're a Creationist or an Evolutionist,

you can be a great scientist.

For instance, here's an atheist, who is a great scientist--

Craig Venter, one of the first researchers to sequence the human genome.

Or Dr. Raymond Damadian. He is a man who invented

the MRI scan and revolutionized medicine. He's a biblical Creationist.

But I want us to also understand molecules-to-man

evolution belief has nothing to do with developing technology.

You see, when we're talking about origins, we're talking about the past.

We're talking about our origins. We weren't there.

You can't observe that, whether it's molecules-to-man evolution,

or whether it's a creation account.

I mean, you're talking about the past.

We'd like to call that Origins or Historical Science,

knowledge concerning the past. Here at the Creation Museum,

we make no apology about the fact that our Origins or Historical science

actually is based upon the biblical account of origins.

Now, when you research science textbooks being used

in public schools, what we found is this:

by and large, the Origins or Historical Science

is based upon man's ideas about the past--for instance, the ideas of Darwin.

And our research has found that public school textbooks

are using the same word "science" for Observational Science

and Historical Science. They arbitrarily define science

as naturalism and outlaw the supernatural.

They present molecules-to-man evolution as fact.

They are imposing, I believe, the religion

of naturalism or atheism on generations of students.

You see, I assert that the word "science" has been hijacked

by secularists in teaching evolution to force the religion

of naturalism on generations of kids.

Secular evolutionists teach that all life developed

by natural processes from some primordial form.

That man is just an evolved animal, which has great bearing

on how we view life and death.

For instance, as Bill states, "It's very hard to accept,

for many of us, that when you die, it's over."

But, you see, the Bible gives a totally different account of origins,

of who we are, where we came from, the meaning of life, and our future.

That through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin.

But that God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son.

Whoever believes in Him should not perish and have everlasting life.

So is creation a viable model of origins in today's modern scientific era?

I say the creation/evolution debate is a conflict

between two philosophical worldviews based on two different accounts

of origins or science beliefs and creation

is the only viable model of historical science confirmed

by observational science in today's modern scientific era.

And that is time. I had the unenviable job of being the time-keeper here.

So I'm like the referee in football that you don't like,

but I will periodically, if either one of our debaters

runs over on anything, I will stop them in the name of keeping it fair for all.

Uh, Mr. Ham, thank you for your comments. Now it's Mr. Nye's

turn for a five minute opening statement. Mr. Nye.

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

I very much appreciate you including me in your, uh, facility here.

Now, looking around the room I think I see just one bow tie.

Is that right? Just one. And I'm telling you, once you try it--

oh, there's yes, two! That's great. I started wearing bow ties

when I was young, in high school.

My father showed me how. His father showed him.

And there's a story associated with this, which I find remarkable.

My grandfather was in the rotary, and he attended

a convention in Philadelphia, and even in those days,

at the turn of the last century, people rented tuxedos.

And the tuxedo came with a bow tie--untied bow tie.

So he didn't know how to tie it.

So...wasn't sure what to do, but he just took a chance.

He went to the hotel room next door, knocked on the door,

"Excuse me? Can you help me tie my tie?"

And the guy said, "Sure. Lie down on the bed."

So...my grandfather wanted to have the tie on,

wasn't sure what he was getting into, so he's said

to have lain on the bed and the guy tied a perfect bow tie knot and,

quite reasonably, my grandfather said,

"Thank you. Why'd I have to lie down on the bed?"

The guy said, "I'm an undertaker."

(audience laughs)

"It's the only way I know how to do it."

Now that story was presented to me as a true story.

It may or may not be. But it gives you something to think about.

And it's certainly something to remember.

So, here tonight, we're gonna have two stories

and we can compare Mr. Ham's story to the story

from what I will call the outside, from mainstream science.

The question tonight is: Does Ken Ham's Creation Model hold up?

Is it "viable"?

So let me ask you all: what would you be doing if you weren't here tonight?

That's right, you'd be home watching CSI.

CSI Petersburg. Is that coming--I think it's coming.

And on CSI, there is no distinction made between

historical science and observational science.

These are constructs unique to Mr. Ham.

We don't normally have these anywhere in the world except here.

Natural laws that applied in the past apply now.

That's why they're natural laws. That's why we embrace them.

That's how we made all these discoveries

that enabled all this remarkable technology.

So CSI is a fictional show, but it's based absolutely

on real people doing real work.

When you go to a crime scene and find evidence,

you have clues about the past. And you trust those clues

and you embrace them and you move forward to convict somebody.

Mr. Ham and his followers have this remarkable view

of a worldwide flood that somehow influenced everything that we observe in nature.

A 500 foot wooden boat, eight zookeepers for 14,000 individual animals,

every land plant in the world underwater for a full year?

I ask us all: is that really reasonable?

You'll hear a lot about the Grand Canyon, I imagine, also,

which is a remarkable place and it has fossils.

And the fossils in the Grand Canyon are found in layers.

There's not a single place in the Grand Canyon

where the fossils of one type of animal cross over

into the fossils of another. In other words,

when there was a big flood on the earth, you would expect

drowning animals to swim up to a higher level.

Not any one of them did. Not a single one.

If you could find evidence of that, my friends, you could change the world.

Now, I just wanna remind us all:

there are billions of people in the world who are deeply religious,

who get enriched, who have a wonderful sense of community from their religion.

They worship together, they eat together, they live

in their communities and enjoy each others company. Billions of people.

But these same people do not embrace the extraordinary view

that the earth is somehow only 6,000 years old. That is unique.

And here's my concern: what keeps the United States ahead,

what makes the United States a world leader, is our technology,

our new ideas, our innovations. If we continue to eschew science,

eschew the process and try to divide science

into observational science and historic science,

we are not gonna move forward. We will not embrace natural laws.

We will not make discoveries. We will not invent and innovate and stay ahead.

So if you ask me if Ken Ham's Creation model is viable, I say no.

It is absolutely not viable. So stay with us over the next period

and you can compare my evidence to his. Thank you all very much.

(audience applauds)

(moderator) All right.

Very nice start by both of our debaters here.

And now each of one will offer a thirty minute,

illustrated presentation to fully offer their case for us to consider.

Mr. Ham, you're up.

Well, the debate topic was "Is creation a viable model

of origins in today's modern scientific era?"

And I made the statement at the end of my opening statement:

creation is the only viable model of historical science

confirmed by observational science in today's modern scientific era.

And I said what we need to be doing is actually defining

our terms and, particularly three terms: science, creation, and evolution.

Now, I discussed the meaning of the word "science"

and what is meant by experimental and observational science briefly.

And that both Creationists and Evolutionists

can be great scientists, for instance. I mentioned Craig Venter, a biologist.

He's an atheist and he's a great scientist.

He was one of the first researchers to sequence the human genome.

I also mentioned Dr. Raymond Damadian, who actually invented the MRI scanner.

I want you to meet a biblical creationist who is a scientist and an inventor.

Hi, my name is Dr. Raymond Damadian.

I am a Young Earth Creation Scientist and believe that God

created the world in six 24 hour days,

just as recorded in the book of Genesis.

By God's grace and the devoted prayers of my Godly mother-in-law,

I invented the MRI scanner in 1969.

The idea that scientists who believe the earth

is 6,000 years old cannot do real science is simply wrong.

Well, he's most adamant about that.

And, actually, he revolutionized medicine! He's a biblical Creationist.

And I encourage children to follow people like that, make them their heroes.

Let me introduce you to another biblical Creation Scientist.

My name is Danny Faulkner.

I received my PhD in astronomy from Indiana University.

For 26 and a half years, I was a professor

at the University of South Carolina, Lancaster,

where I hold the rank of distinguished professor emeritus.

Upon my retirement from the university in January of 2013,

I joined the research staff at Answers in Genesis. I'm a stellar astronomer.

That means my primary interests is stars, but I'm particularly

interested in the study of eclipsing binary stars.

And I've published many articles in the astronomy literature,

places such as the the Astrophysical Journal,

the Astronomical Journal, and the Observatory.

There is nothing in observational astronomy that contradicts a recent creation.

I also mentioned Dr. Stuart Burgess,

professor of Engineering Design at Bristol University in England.

Now he invented and designed a double-action worm gear set

for the three hinges of the robotic arm on a very expensive satellite.

And if that had not worked, if that gear set had not worked,

that whole satellite would've been useless.

Yet, Dr. Burgess is a biblical Creationist. He believes, just as I believe.

Now, think about this for a moment.

A scientist like Dr. Burgess,

who believe in Creation, just as I do,

a small minority in this scientific world.

But let's see what he says about scientists believing in Creation.

I find that many of my colleagues in academia are sympathetic

to the creationist viewpoint, including biologists.

However, there are often afraid to speak out because of the criticisms

they would get from the media and atheists lobby.

Now, I agree. That's a real problem today.

We need to have freedom to be able to speak on these topics.

You know, I just want to say, by the way, that Creationists,

non-Christian scientists, I should say,

non-Christian scientists are really borrowing

from the Christian worldview anyway to carry out their experimental,

observational science. Think about it. When they're doing

observational science, using the scientific method,

they have to assume the laws of logic,

they have to assume the laws of nature,

they have to assume the uniformity of nature.

I mean, think about it. If the universe came about by natural processes,

where'd the laws of logic come from? Did they just pop into existence?

Are we in a stage now where we only have half-logic?

So, you see, I have a question for Bill Nye.

How do you account for the laws of logic and the laws of nature

from a naturalistic worldview that excludes the existence of God?

Now, in my opening statement I also discussed

a different type of science or knowledge, origins or historical science.

See again, there's a confusion here. There's a misunderstanding here.

People, by and large, have not been taught to look at

what you believe about the past as different to what you're observing in the present.

You don't observe the past directly.

Even when you think about the creation account.

I mean, we can't observe God creating.

We can't observe the creation of Adam and Eve. We admit that.

We're willing to admit our beliefs about the past.

But, see, what you see in the present is very different.

Even some public school textbooks actually sort of acknowledge

the difference between historical and observational science.

Here is an Earth Science textbook that's used in public schools.

And we read this. In contrast to physical geology,

the aim of historical geology is to understand Earth's long history.

Then they make this statement.

Historical geology--so we're talking historical science--

tries to establish a timeline of the vast number of physical

and biological changes that have occurred in the past.

We study physical geology before historical geology

because we first must understand how Earth works before we try to unravel its past.

In other words, we observe things in the present and then,

okay, we're assuming that that's always happened in the past

and we're gonna try and figure out how this happened.

See, there is a difference between what you observe

and what happened in the past. Let me illustrate it this way:

If Bill Nye and I went to the Grand Canyon,

we could agree that that's a Coconino sandstone in the Hermit shale.

There's the boundary. They're sitting one on top of the other.

We could agree on that. But you know what we would disagree on?

I mean, we could even analyse the minerals and agree on that.

But we would disagree on how long it took to get there.

But see, none of us saw the sandstone or the shale being laid down.

There's a supposed 10 million year gap there.

But I don't see a gap.

But that might be different to what Bill Nye would see.

But there's a difference between what you actually observe

directly and then your interpretation regarding the past.

When I was at the Goddard Space Center a number of years ago

I met Creationists and Evolutionists who were

both working on the Hubble telescope.

They agreed on how to build the Hubble telescope.

You know what they disagreed on? Well, they disagreed on

how to interpret the data the telescope obtained

in regard to the age of the universe.

And, you know, we could on and talk about lots

of other similar sorts of things. For instance,

I've heard Bill Nye talk about how a smoke detector works,

using the radioactive element Americium. And, you know what?

I totally agree with him on that. We agree how it works.

We agree how radioactivity enables that to work.

But if you're then gonna use radioactive elements

and talk about the age of the Earth,

you've got a problem cause you weren't there.

We gotta understand parent elements, daughter elements and so on.

We could agree whether you're Creationist or Evolutionist

on the technology to put the rover on Mars, but we're gonna

disagree on how to interpret the origin of Mars.

I mean, there are some people that believed it

was even a global flood on Mars, and there's no liquid water on Mars.

We're gonna disagree maybe on our interpretation of origins

and you can't prove either way because, not from

an observational science perspective, because we've only got the present.

Creationists and Evolutionists both work on medicines and vaccines.

You see? It doesn't matter whether you're a Creationist or an Evolutionist,

all scientists have the same experimental observational science.

So I have a question for Bill Nye: Can you name one piece

of technology that could only have been developed

starting with the belief in molecules-to-man evolution?

Now, here's another important fact.

Creationists and Evolutionists all have the same evidence.

Bill Nye and I have the same Grand Canyon. We don't disagree on that.

We all have the same fish fossils. This is one from the Creation Museum.

The same dinosaur skeleton, the same animals, the same humans,

the same DNA, the same radioactive decay elements that we see.

We have the same universe...actually, we all have the same evidences.

It's not the evidences that are different.

It's a battle over the same evidence in regard to how we interpret the past.

And you know why that is?

Cause it's really a battle over worldviews and starting points.

It's a battle over philosophical worldviews

and starting points, but the same evidence. Now, I admit,

my starting point is that God is the ultimate authority.

But if someone doesn't accept that, then man has to be the ultimate authority.

And that's really the difference when it comes down to it.

You see, I've been emphasizing the difference

between historical origin science, knowledge about

the past when you weren't there,

and we need to understand that we weren't there.

Or experimental observational science, using

your five senses in the present, the scientific method,

what you can directly observe, test, repeat.

There's a big difference between those two.

And that's not what's being taught in our public schools

and that's why kids aren't being taught to think

critically and correctly about the origins issue.

But you know, it's also important to understand,

when talking about Creation and Evolution, both involve

historical science and observational science.

You see, the role of observational science is this:

it can be used to confirm or otherwise

one's historical science based on one's starting point.

Now, when you think about the debate topic and what I have

learned concerning creation, if our origins

or historical science based on the bible, the bible's account

of origins is true, then there should be predictions

from this that we can test, using observational science.

And there are. For instance, based on the bible,

we'd expect to find evidence concerning an intelligence,

confirming an intelligence produced life.

We'd expect to find evidence confirming after their kind.

The bible says God made kinds of animals and plants

after their kind, implying each kind produces it's own,

not that one kind changes into another.

You'd expect to find evidence confirming a global flood of Noah's day.

Evidence confirming one race of humans because we

all go back to Adam and Eve, biologically, that would mean there's one race.

Evidence confirming the Tower of Babel, that God gave different languages.

Evidence confirming a young universe.

Now, I can't go through all of those, but a couple of them we'll look at briefly.

After their kind, evidence confirming that--

in the Creation Museum, we have a display featuring replicas,

actually, of Darwin's finches. They're called Darwin's finches.

Darwin collected finches from the Galapagos

and took them back to England and we see the different species,

the different beak sizes here. And, you know,

from the specimens Darwin obtained in the Galapagos,

he actually pondered these things and how do you explain this.

And in his notes, actually, he came up with this diagram here, a tree.

And he actually said, "I think." So he was talking about

different species and maybe those species came from some common ancestor,

but, actually, when it comes to finches, we actually would agree,

as Creationists, that different finch species came from a common ancestor, but a finch.

That's what they would have to come from.

And see, Darwin wasn't just thinking about species.

Darwin had a much bigger picture in mind.

When you look at the Origins of Species and read that book,

you'll find he made this statement: from such low and intermediate form,

both animals and plants may have been developed;

and, if we admit this, we must likewise admit that

all organic beings which have ever lived on this Earth

may be descended from some one primordial form.

So he had in mind what we today know as an evolutionary tree of life,

that all life has arisen from some primordial form.

Now, when you consider the classifications system,

kingdom phylum class or the family genus species,

we would say, as Creationists, we have many creation scientists

that research this and, for lots of reasons,

I would say, the kind in Genesis 1 is really more at

the family level of classification. For instance, there's one dog kind.

There's one cat kind. Even though you have different

generative species, that would mean, by the way,

you didn't need anywhere near the number of animals

on the ark as people think.

You wouldn't need all the species of dogs, just two.

Not all the species of cats--just two.

And, you see, based on the biblical account there in Genesis One,

Creationists have drawn up what they believe is a creation origin.

In other words, they're saying, "Look. There's great variation

in the genetics of dogs and finches and so on."

And so, over time, particularly after Noah's flood,

you'd expect if there were two dogs, for instance,

you could end up with different species of dogs because

there's an incredible amount of variability in the genes of any creature.

And so you'd expect these different species up here, but there's limits.

Dogs will always be dogs, finches will always be finches.

Now, as a Creationist, I maintain that observational science

actually confirms this model, based on the bible.

For instance, take dogs. Okay?

In a scientific paper dated January 2014--that's this year--

scientists working at the University of California stated this:

We provide several lines of evidence supporting

a single origin for dogs, and disfavoring alternative models

in which dog lineages arise separately

from geographically distinct wolf populations.

And they put this diagram in the paper.

By the way, that diagram is very, very similar

to this diagram that Creationists proposed based upon

the creation account in Genesis. In other words,

you have a common dog ancestor that gives rise

to the different species of dogs, and that's exactly

what we're saying here. Now, in the Creation Museum,

we actually show the finches here and you see the finches

with their different beaks, beside dogs skulls, different species of dogs.

By the way, there's more variation in the dog skeleton

here than there are in these finches. Yet, the dogs,

wow, that's never used as an example of evolution,

but the finches are, particularly in the public school textbooks.

Students are taught, "Ah! See the changes that are occurring here?"

And here's another problem that we've got.

Not only has the word "science" been hijacked by secularists,

I believe the word "evolution" has been hijacked by secularists.

The word "evolution" has been hijacked using what I call a bait and switch.

Let me explain to you.

The word "evolution" is being used in public school textbooks,

and we often see it in documentaries and so on,

is used for observable changes that we would agree with,

and then used for unobservable changes, such as molecules-to-man.

Let me explain to you what's really going on because

I was a science teacher in the public schools

and I know what the students were taught and I checked

the public school textbooks anyway to know what they're taught.

See, students are taught today, look, there's all

these different animals, plants, but they're all part

of this great, big tree of life that goes back to some primordial form.

And, look, we see changes. Changes in finches,

changes in dogs and so on. Now, we don't deny the changes.

You see that. You see different species of finches, different species of dogs.

But then they put it all together in this evolutionary tree--

but that's what you don't observe. You don't observe that.

That's belief there. That's the historical science

that I would say is wrong. But, you know, what you do observe,

you do observe different species of dogs, different species of finches,

but then there are limits. You don't see one kind changing into another.

Actually, we're told that if you teach creation

in the public schools as teaching religion,

if you teach evolution as science, I'm gonna say, "Wait a minute!"

Actually, the creation model here, based upon the Bible,

observational science confirms this. This is what you're observe!

You don't observe this tree.

Actually, it's the public school textbooks that are teaching a belief,

imposing it on students, and they need to be teaching them

observational science to understand the reality of what's happening.

Now, what we found is that public school textbooks present

the evolutionary "tree" as science, but reject the creation "orchard" as religion.

But observational science confirms the creation orchard--

so public school textbooks are rejecting observational science

and imposing a naturalistic religion on students.

The word "evolution" has been hijacked using a bait and switch

to indoctrinate students to accept evolutionary belief

as observational science.

Let me introduce you to another scientist, Richard Lenski,

from Michigan State University. He's a great scientist,

he's known for culturing e-coli in the lab...

and he found there was some e-coli that actually seemed

to develop the ability to grow on cistrate on substrate.

But Richard Lenski is here, mentioned in this book,

and it's called "Evolution in the Lab".

So the ability to grow on citrate is said to be evolution.

And there are those that say, "Hey! This is against the Creationist."

For instance, Jerry Coin from University of Chicago says,

"Lenski's experiment is also yet another poke in the eye

for anti-evolutionists."

He says, "The thing I like most is it says you can get

these complex traits evolving by a combination of unlikely events."

But is it a poke in the eye for anti-evolutionists?

Is it really seeing complex traits evolving?

What does it mean that some of these bacteria are able to grow on citrate?

Let me introduce you to another biblical Creationist, who is a scientist.

Hi, my name's Dr. Andrew Fabich.

I got my PhD from University of Oklahoma in Microbiology.

I teach at Liberty University and I do research on e-coli in the intestine.

I've published it in secular journals from the American Society for Microbiology,

including infection immunity and applied environmental microbiology

as well as several others.

My work has been cited even in the past year in the journals Nature,

Science Translational Medicine, Public Library of Science,

Public Library of Science Genetics. It's cited regularly

in those journals and while I was taught nothing but evolution,

I don't accept that position.

I do my research from a creation perspective.

When I look at the evidence that people cite as e-coli,

supposedly, evolving over 30 years, over 30,000 generations in the lab,

and people say that it is now able to grow on citrate,

I don't deny that it grows on citrate,

but it's not any kind of new information.

The information's already there and it's just a switch

that gets turned on and off and that's what they reported in there.

There's nothing new.

See, students need to be told what's really going on here.

Certainly there's change, but it's not change necessary for molecules-to-man.

Now, we could look at other predictions.

What about evidence confirming one race?

Well, when we look at the human population we see lots of differences.

But based on Darwin's ideas of human evolution,

as presented in The Descent of Man, I mean,

Darwin did teach in The Descent of Man there were

lower races and higher races.

Would you believe, that back in the 1900s, one of the most

popular biology textbooks used in the public schools in America taught this:

At the present time there exists upon Earth

five races or varieties of man...and finally,

the highest type of all, the Caucasians, represented

by the civilized white inhabitants of Europe and America.

Can you imagine if that was in the public schools today?

And, yet, that's what was taught, but it was based on

Darwin's ideas that are wrong. You have a wrong foundation.

You're gonna have a wrong worldview.

Now, had they started from the Bible, and from

the creation account in the Bible, what does it teach?

Well, we're all descendants of Adam and Eve.

We go through the Tower of Babel, different languages,

so different people groups formed distinct characteristics.

But we'd expect, we'd say, you know what,

that means there's biologically only one race of humans.

Well, I mentioned Dr. Venter before.

And he was a researcher with the human genome project.

And you'll remember, in the year 2000, this was headline news,

and what we read was this: they had put together

a draft of the entire sequence of the human genome

and unanimously declared, there is only one race - the human race.

Wow! Who would have guessed?

But you see there we have observational science

confirming the Creation account,

not confirming at all Darwin's ideas.

Now, there's much more that can be said

on each of these topics.

Obviously, you can't do that in a short time like this.

And you could do a lot more research.

I suggest you visit our website at Answers in Genesis

for a lot more information.

So, the debate topic: Is creation a viable model

of origins in today's scientific era?

I said, we need to define the terms,

and particularly, the term science

and the term evolution. And I believe we need

to understand how they are being used to impose

an anti-God religion on generations of unsuspecting students.

You see, I keep emphasizing we do need to

understand the difference between experimental or

observational science and historical science.

And you know what?

The secularists don't like me doing this

because they don't want to admit

that there's a belief aspect to what they're saying.

And there is. And they can't get away from it.

Let me illustrate this with a statement from Bill Nye.

"You can show the Earth is not flat.

You can show the Earth is not 10,000 years old."

By the way, I agree. You can show the Earth is not flat.

There's a video from the Galileo spacecraft showing

the Earth, and speeded up of course, but spinning.

You can see it's a sphere. You can observe that.

You can't observe the age of the Earth.

You don't see that. You see again, I emphasize,

there's a big difference between historical science,

talking about the past, and observational science,

talking about the present.

And I believe what's happening is this, that students are being

indoctrinated by the confusion of terms:

the hijacking of the word science and the hijacking

of the word evolution in a bait-and-switch.

Let me illustrate further with this video clip.

Because here I assert that Bill Nye is equating

observational science with historical science.

And I also say it's not a mystery when you understand the difference.

Howie, people with these deeply held religious beliefs,

they embrace that whole literal interpretation

of the Bible as written in English, as a worldview.

And, at the same time, they accept aspirin,

antibiotic drugs, airplanes, but they're able

to hold these two worldviews. And this is a mystery.

Actually, I suggest to you it's not a mystery.

You see, when I'm talking about antibiotics,

aspirin, smoke detectors, jet planes,

that's Ken Ham the Observational Science Bloke.

I'm an Australian. We call guy's "blokes", okay?

But when you're talking about creation and thousands of years

of the age of the Earth,

that's Ken Ham the Historical Science Bloke.

I'm willing to admit that.

Now, when Bill Nye's talking about aspirin,

antibiotics, jet planes, smoke detectors,

he does a great job at that.

I used to enjoy watching him on TV too.

That's Bill Nye the Observational Science Guy.

But when he's talking about evolution and millions of years,

I'm challenging him that that's Bill Nye the Historical Science Guy.

And I challenge the evolutionist to admit the belief

aspects of their particular worldview.

Now, at the Creation Museum, we're only too willing

to admit our beliefs based upon the Bible,

but we also teach people the difference between

beliefs and what one can actually observe

and experiment with in the present.

I believe we're teaching people to think critically

and to think in the right terms about science.

I believe it's the creationists that should be

educating the kids out there because we're teaching

them the right way to think. You know, we admit it.

Our origins of historical science is based upon the Bible,

but I'm just challenging evolutionists to admit

the belief aspects of evolution

and be upfront about the difference here.

As I said, I'm only too willing to admit

my historical science based on the Bible.

And let me further go on to define the term "creation" as we use it.

By creation, we mean, here at Answers in Genesis

and the Creation Museum, we mean the account based on the Bible.

Yes, I take Genesis as literal history, as Jesus did.

And, here at the Creation Museum, we walk people through that history.

We walk them through creation, the perfect creation.

That God made Adam and Eve, land animal kinds, sea-creatures and so on.

And then sin and death entered the world.

There was no death before sin.

That means how can you have billions of dead things before man sinned?

And then, the catastrophe of Noah's flood. If there was a global flood,

you'd expect to find billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth.

Had to say that because a lot of our supporters would want me to.

And what do you find?--Billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth.

Confusion, the tower of Babel. God gave different languages so you get different people groups.

So this is the geological, astronomical, anthropological, biological history as recorded in the Bible.

So this is concerning what happened in the past that explains the present.

And then, of course, that God's Son stepped into history to be Jesus Christ, the God-Man

to die on the cross, be raised from the dead. And one day there's going to be

a new heavens and a new earth to come. And, you know, not only

is this an understanding of history to explain the

geology, biology, astronomy, and so on to connect the present to the past.

But it's also a foundation for our whole world view.

For instance, in Matthew 19, when Jesus was asked about marriage, he said,

"Have you not read He who made them at the beginning made them male and female?"

And said, "For this cause shall a man leave his mother and father and be joined to his wife. And they'll be one flesh."

He quoted from Genesis as literal history--Genesis 1 and 2. God invented marriage, by the way.

That's where marriage comes from. And it's to be a man and a woman.

And not only marriage. Ultimately, every single Biblical doctrine of theology

directly or indirectly, is founded in Genesis.

Why is there sin in the world? Genesis.

Why is there death? Genesis.

Why do we wear clothes? Genesis.

Why did Jesus die on the cross? Genesis.

It's a very important book. It's foundational to all Christian doctrine.

And you see, when we look at that, what I call the seven C's of History

that we walk people through here at the museum,

think about how it all connects together--a perfect creation.

It'll be perfect again in the future.

Sin and death--end of the world. That's why God's son died on the cross

to conquer death and offer a free gift of salvation.

The flood of Noah's day, a reminder that the flood was a

judgement because of man's wickedness but at the same time

a message of God's grace and salvation.

As Noah and his family had to go through a door to be saved,

so we need to go through a door to be saved.

Jesus Christ said, "I am the door. By me, if any man

enter in, he'll be saved. And we make no apology

about the fact that what we're on about is this:

"If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and

believe in your heart God has raised him from the dead,

you'll be saved. Now, as soon as I said that,

see if people say, "See, if you allow creation in schools,

for instance, if you'll ask students to even hear about it,

ah, this is religion."

You know, let me illustrate this,

talking about a recent battle in Texas over textbooks

in the public school. A newspaper report said this:

"Textbook and classroom curriculum battles have long

raged in Texas pitting creationists - those who see

God's hand in the creation of the universe-

against academics..."

Stop right there. Notice creationists... academics.

Creationists can't be academics. Creationists can't be scientists.

See, it's the way things are worded out there.

It's an indoctrination that's going on.

We worry about religious and political ideology

trumping scientific fact. Wait a minute.

What do I mean by science? You're talking about

what you observe, or are you talking about your beliefs about the past?

Now, Kathy Miller is the president of the Texas Freedom Network and

she has vocally spoken out. She's spoken out about this textbook battle there in Texas.

And the mission statement of the organization she's president of says, "The Texas Freedom Network

advances a mainstream agenda of religious freedom and individual liberties

to counter the religious right." Religious freedom... individual liberties. Hmm.

And then she makes this statement: "Science education..." What does she mean by science?

"should be based on mainstream science education, not on personal idealogical beliefs

of unqualified reviewers." Wait a minute. They want religious liberty and not personal

ideological beliefs? I assert this: public school textbooks are using the same word "science"

for observational and historical science. They arbitrarily define science as naturalism

and outlaw the supernatural. They present molecules-to-man evolution as as fact.

And they are imposing the religion of naturalism on generations of students.