The dark secrets of a surveillance state
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0:01 - 0:02This year, Germany is celebrating
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0:02 - 0:06the 25th anniversary of the peaceful revolution
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0:06 - 0:07in East Germany.
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0:07 - 0:12In 1989, the Communist regime was moved away,
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0:12 - 0:15the Berlin Wall came down, and one year later,
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0:15 - 0:19the German Democratic Republic, the GDR,
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0:19 - 0:21in the East was unified
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0:21 - 0:24with the Federal Republic of Germany in the West
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0:24 - 0:27to found today's Germany.
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0:27 - 0:31Among many other things, Germany inherited
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0:31 - 0:35the archives of the East German secret police,
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0:35 - 0:38known as the Stasi.
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0:38 - 0:41Only two years after its dissolution,
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0:41 - 0:45its documents were opened to the public,
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0:45 - 0:48and historians such as me started
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0:48 - 0:49to study these documents
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0:49 - 0:54to learn more about how the GDR surveillance state
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0:54 - 0:56functioned.
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0:56 - 0:58Perhaps you have watched the movie
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0:58 - 1:00"The Lives of Others."
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1:00 - 1:05This movie made the Stasi known worldwide,
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1:05 - 1:08and as we live in an age where words
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1:08 - 1:11such as "surveillance" or "wiretapping"
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1:11 - 1:14are on the front pages of newspapers,
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1:14 - 1:17I would like to speak about how the Stasi
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1:17 - 1:19really worked.
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1:19 - 1:22At the beginning, let's have a short look
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1:22 - 1:24at the history of the Stasi,
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1:24 - 1:26because it's really important for understanding
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1:26 - 1:30its self-conception.
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1:30 - 1:32Its origins are located in Russia.
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1:32 - 1:35In 1917, the Russian Communists founded
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1:35 - 1:37the Emergency Commission for Combating
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1:37 - 1:40Counter-Revolution and Sabotage,
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1:40 - 1:42shortly Cheka.
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1:42 - 1:45It was led by Felix Dzerzhinsky.
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1:45 - 1:48The Cheka was an instrument of the Communists
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1:48 - 1:52to establish their regime by terrorizing the population
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1:52 - 1:54and executing their enemies.
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1:54 - 2:00It evolved later into the well-known KGB.
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2:00 - 2:04The Cheka was the idol of the Stasi officers.
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2:04 - 2:07They called themselves Chekists,
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2:07 - 2:10and even the emblem was very similar,
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2:10 - 2:13as you can see here.
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2:13 - 2:16In fact, the secret police of Russia
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2:16 - 2:20was the creator and instructor of the Stasi.
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2:20 - 2:23When the Red Army occupied East Germany in 1945,
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2:23 - 2:25it immediately expanded there,
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2:25 - 2:29and soon it started to train the German Communists
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2:29 - 2:32to build up their own secret police.
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2:32 - 2:36By the way, in this hall where we are now,
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2:36 - 2:42the ruling party of the GDR was founded in 1946.
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2:42 - 2:45Five years later, the Stasi was established,
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2:45 - 2:48and step by step, the dirty job of oppression
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2:48 - 2:50was handed over to it.
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2:50 - 2:53For instance, the central jail
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2:53 - 2:54for political prisoners,
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2:54 - 2:57which was established by the Russians,
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2:57 - 2:59was taken over by the Stasi
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2:59 - 3:02and used until the end of Communism.
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3:02 - 3:04You see it here.
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3:04 - 3:07At the beginning, every important step
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3:07 - 3:11took place under the attendance of the Russians.
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3:11 - 3:14But the Germans are known to be very effective,
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3:14 - 3:18so the Stasi grew very quickly,
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3:18 - 3:21and already in 1953, it had more employees
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3:21 - 3:23than the Gestapo had,
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3:23 - 3:26the secret police of Nazi Germany.
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3:26 - 3:28The number doubled in each decade.
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3:28 - 3:32In 1989, more than 90,000 employees
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3:32 - 3:33worked for the Stasi.
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3:33 - 3:36This meant that one employee
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3:36 - 3:39was responsible for 180 inhabitants,
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3:39 - 3:43which was really unique in the world.
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3:43 - 3:45At the top of this tremendous apparatus,
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3:45 - 3:49there was one man, Erich Mielke.
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3:49 - 3:51He ruled the Ministry of State Security
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3:51 - 3:54for more than 30 years.
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3:54 - 3:56He was a scrupulous functionary —
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3:56 - 3:59in his past, he killed two policemen
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3:59 - 4:01not far away from here —
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4:01 - 4:05who in fact personalized the Stasi.
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4:05 - 4:10But what was so exceptional about the Stasi?
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4:10 - 4:13Foremost, it was its enormous power,
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4:13 - 4:16because it united different functions
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4:16 - 4:18in one organization.
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4:18 - 4:20First of all, the Stasi
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4:20 - 4:24was an intelligence service.
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4:24 - 4:26It used all the imaginable instruments
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4:26 - 4:28for getting information secretly,
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4:28 - 4:32such as informers, or tapping phones,
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4:32 - 4:35as you can see it on the picture here.
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4:35 - 4:38And it was not only active in East Germany,
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4:38 - 4:41but all over the world.
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4:41 - 4:45Secondly, the Stasi was a secret police.
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4:45 - 4:47It could stop people on the street
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4:47 - 4:51and arrest them in its own prisons.
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4:51 - 4:53Thirdly, the Stasi worked
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4:53 - 4:55as a kind of public prosecutor.
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4:55 - 4:59It had the right to open preliminary investigations
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4:59 - 5:02and to interrogate people officially.
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5:02 - 5:04Last but not least,
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5:04 - 5:08the Stasi had its own armed forces.
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5:08 - 5:10More than 11,000 soldiers were serving
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5:10 - 5:14in its so-called Guards Regiment.
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5:14 - 5:18It was founded to crash down protests and uprisings.
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5:18 - 5:21Due to this concentration of power,
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5:21 - 5:26the Stasi was called a state in the state.
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5:26 - 5:28But let's look in more and more detail
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5:28 - 5:31at the tools of the Stasi.
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5:31 - 5:32Please keep in mind that at that time
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5:32 - 5:36the web and smartphones were not yet invented.
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5:36 - 5:40Of course, the Stasi used all kinds
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5:40 - 5:43of technical instruments to survey people.
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5:43 - 5:45Telephones were wiretapped,
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5:45 - 5:49including the phone of the
German chancellor in the West, -
5:49 - 5:52and often also the apartments.
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5:52 - 5:55Every day, 90,000 letters were being opened
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5:55 - 5:59by these machines.
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5:59 - 6:02The Stasi also shadowed
tens of thousands of people -
6:02 - 6:05using specially trained agents and secret cameras
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6:05 - 6:09to document every step one took.
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6:09 - 6:12In this picture, you can see me
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6:12 - 6:15as a young man just in front of this building
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6:15 - 6:19where we are now, photographed by a Stasi agent.
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6:19 - 6:23The Stasi even collected the smell of people.
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6:23 - 6:27It stored samples of it in closed jars
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6:27 - 6:31which were found after the peaceful revolution.
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6:31 - 6:35For all these tasks, highly specialized departments
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6:35 - 6:38were responsible.
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6:38 - 6:40The one which was tapping phone calls
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6:40 - 6:42was completely separated
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6:42 - 6:44from the one which controlled the letters,
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6:44 - 6:46for good reasons,
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6:46 - 6:50because if one agent quit the Stasi,
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6:50 - 6:52his knowledge was very small.
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6:52 - 6:56Contrast that with Snowden, for example.
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6:56 - 6:59But the vertical specialization was also important
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6:59 - 7:02to prevent all kinds of empathy
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7:02 - 7:04with the object of observation.
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7:04 - 7:07The agent who shadowed me
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7:07 - 7:09didn't know who I was
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7:09 - 7:11or why I was surveyed.
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7:11 - 7:12In fact, I smuggled forbidden books
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7:12 - 7:15from West to East Germany.
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7:15 - 7:18But what was even more typical for the Stasi
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7:18 - 7:21was the use of human intelligence,
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7:21 - 7:26people who reported secretly to the Stasi.
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7:26 - 7:27For the Minister of State Security,
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7:27 - 7:30these so-called unofficial employees
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7:30 - 7:33were the most important tools.
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7:33 - 7:39From 1975 on, nearly 200,000 people
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7:39 - 7:41collaborated constantly with the Stasi,
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7:41 - 7:46more than one percent of the population.
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7:46 - 7:49And in a way, the minister was right,
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7:49 - 7:51because technical instruments
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7:51 - 7:54can only register what people are doing,
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7:54 - 7:58but agents and spies can also report
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7:58 - 7:59what people are planning to do
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7:59 - 8:02and what they are thinking.
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8:02 - 8:07Therefore, the Stasi recruited so many informants.
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8:07 - 8:09The system of how to get them
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8:09 - 8:12and how to educate them, as it was called,
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8:12 - 8:15was very sophisticated.
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8:15 - 8:18The Stasi had its own university,
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8:18 - 8:20not far away from here,
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8:20 - 8:22where the methods were explored
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8:22 - 8:24and taught to the officers.
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8:24 - 8:28This guideline gave a detailed description
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8:28 - 8:31of every step you have to take
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8:31 - 8:33if you want to convince human beings
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8:33 - 8:37to betray their fellow citizens.
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8:37 - 8:40Sometimes it's said that informants were pressured
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8:40 - 8:42to becoming one,
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8:42 - 8:44but that's mostly not true,
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8:44 - 8:48because a forced informant is a bad informant.
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8:48 - 8:51Only someone who wants to give
you the information you need -
8:51 - 8:54is an effective whistleblower.
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8:54 - 8:59The main reasons why people
cooperated with the Stasi -
8:59 - 9:04were political conviction and material benefits.
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9:04 - 9:07The officers also tried to create a personal bond
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9:07 - 9:11between themselves and the informant,
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9:11 - 9:16and to be honest, the example of the Stasi shows
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9:16 - 9:19that it's not so difficult to win someone
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9:19 - 9:23in order to betray others.
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9:23 - 9:27Even some of the top dissidents in East Germany
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9:27 - 9:28collaborated with the Stasi,
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9:28 - 9:32as for instance Ibrahim Böhme.
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9:32 - 9:35In 1989, he was the leader of the peaceful revolution
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9:35 - 9:39and he nearly became the first freely
elected Prime Minister of the GDR -
9:39 - 9:44until it came out that he was an informant.
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9:44 - 9:48The net of spies was really broad.
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9:48 - 9:50In nearly every institution,
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9:50 - 9:53even in the churches or in West Germany,
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9:53 - 9:56there were many of them.
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9:56 - 9:59I remember telling a leading Stasi officer,
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9:59 - 10:02"If you had sent an informant to me,
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10:02 - 10:05I would surely have recognized him."
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10:05 - 10:07His answer was,
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10:07 - 10:08"We didn't send anyone.
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10:08 - 10:11We took those who were around you."
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10:11 - 10:14And in fact, two of my best friends
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10:14 - 10:18reported about me to the Stasi.
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10:18 - 10:21Not only in my case, informers were very close.
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10:21 - 10:25For example, Vera Lengsfeld,
another leading dissident, -
10:25 - 10:29in her case it was her husband who spied on her.
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10:29 - 10:32A famous writer was betrayed by his brother.
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10:32 - 10:36This reminds me of the novel "1984" by George Orwell,
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10:36 - 10:39where the only apparently trustable person
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10:39 - 10:42was an informer.
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10:42 - 10:46But why did the Stasi collect all this information
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10:46 - 10:48in its archives?
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10:48 - 10:52The main purpose was to control the society.
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10:52 - 10:54In nearly every speech, the Stasi minister
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10:54 - 10:57gave the order to find out who is who,
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10:57 - 11:00which meant who thinks what.
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11:00 - 11:02He didn't want to wait until somebody
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11:02 - 11:04tried to act against the regime.
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11:04 - 11:06He wanted to know in advance
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11:06 - 11:09what people were thinking and planning.
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11:09 - 11:12The East Germans knew, of course,
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11:12 - 11:15that they were surrounded by informers,
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11:15 - 11:19in a totalitarian regime that created mistrust
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11:19 - 11:22and a state of widespread fear,
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11:22 - 11:26the most important tools to oppress people
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11:26 - 11:28in any dictatorship.
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11:28 - 11:31That's why not many East Germans tried
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11:31 - 11:35to fight against the Communist regime.
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11:35 - 11:39If yes, the Stasi often used a method
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11:39 - 11:42which was really diabolic.
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11:42 - 11:44It was called Zersetzung,
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11:44 - 11:48and it's described in another guideline.
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11:48 - 11:51The word is difficult to translate because it means
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11:51 - 11:55originally "biodegradation."
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11:55 - 11:58But actually, it's a quite accurate description.
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11:58 - 12:02The goal was to destroy secretly
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12:02 - 12:04the self-confidence of people,
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12:04 - 12:08for example by damaging their reputation,
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12:08 - 12:11by organizing failures in their work,
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12:11 - 12:16and by destroying their personal relationships.
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12:16 - 12:21Considering this, East Germany
was a very modern dictatorship. -
12:21 - 12:25The Stasi didn't try to arrest every dissident.
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12:25 - 12:28It preferred to paralyze them,
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12:28 - 12:31and it could do so because
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12:31 - 12:34it had access to so much personal information
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12:34 - 12:38and to so many institutions.
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12:38 - 12:41Detaining someone was used only
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12:41 - 12:43as a last resort.
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12:43 - 12:46For this, the Stasi owned 17 remand prisons,
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12:46 - 12:49one in every district.
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12:49 - 12:52Here, the Stasi also developed
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12:52 - 12:56quite modern methods of detention.
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12:56 - 12:58Normally, the interrogation officer
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12:58 - 13:01didn't torture the prisoner.
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13:01 - 13:04Instead, he used a sophisticated system
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13:04 - 13:06of psychological pressure
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13:06 - 13:10in which strict isolation was central.
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13:10 - 13:12Nearly no prisoner resisted
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13:12 - 13:16without giving a testimony.
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13:16 - 13:18If you have the occasion,
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13:18 - 13:21do visit the former Stasi prison in Berlin
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13:21 - 13:25and attend a guided tour
with a former political prisoner -
13:25 - 13:28who will explain to you how this worked.
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13:28 - 13:31One more question needs to be answered:
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13:31 - 13:33If the Stasi were so well organized,
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13:33 - 13:37why did the Communist regime collapse?
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13:37 - 13:42First, in 1989, the leadership in East Germany
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13:42 - 13:44was uncertain what to do against
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13:44 - 13:47the growing protest of people.
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13:47 - 13:49It was especially confused
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13:49 - 13:52because in the mother country of socialism,
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13:52 - 13:53the Soviet Union,
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13:53 - 13:57a more liberal policy took place.
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13:57 - 13:59In addition, the regime was dependent
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13:59 - 14:03on the loans from the West.
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14:03 - 14:05Therefore, no order to crash down the uprising
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14:05 - 14:08was given to the Stasi.
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14:08 - 14:12Secondly, in the Communist ideology,
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14:12 - 14:15there's no place for criticism.
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14:15 - 14:17Instead, the leadership stuck to the belief
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14:17 - 14:20that socialism is a perfect system,
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14:20 - 14:24and the Stasi had to confirm that, of course.
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14:24 - 14:26The consequence was
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14:26 - 14:29that despite all the information,
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14:29 - 14:33the regime couldn't analyze its real problems,
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14:33 - 14:36and therefore it couldn't solve them.
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14:36 - 14:38In the end, the Stasi died
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14:38 - 14:40because of the structures
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14:40 - 14:44that it was charged with protecting.
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14:44 - 14:46The ending of the Stasi
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14:46 - 14:48was something tragic,
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14:48 - 14:50because these officers
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14:50 - 14:53were kept busy during the peaceful revolution
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14:53 - 14:55with only one thing:
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14:55 - 14:58to destroy the documents
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14:58 - 15:01they had produced during decades.
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15:01 - 15:03Fortunately,
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15:03 - 15:07they had been stopped by human rights activists.
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15:07 - 15:10That's why today we can use the files
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15:10 - 15:11to get a better understanding
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15:11 - 15:14of how a surveillance state functions.
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15:14 - 15:16Thank you.
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15:16 - 15:20(Applause)
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15:25 - 15:31Bruno Giussani: Thank you. Thank you very much.
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15:31 - 15:33So Hubertus, I want to ask you a couple of questions
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15:33 - 15:36because I have here Der Spiegel from last week.
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15:36 - 15:41"Mein Nachbar NSA." My neighbor, the NSA.
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15:41 - 15:44And you just told us about my neighbor,
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15:44 - 15:47the spies and the informant from East Germany.
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15:47 - 15:49So there is a direct link between these two stories
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15:49 - 15:51or there isn't?
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15:51 - 15:53What's your reaction as a
historian when you see this? -
15:53 - 15:55Hubertus Knabe: I think there are
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15:55 - 15:57several aspects to mention.
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15:57 - 16:00At first, I think there's a difference
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16:00 - 16:04of why you are collecting this data.
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16:04 - 16:06Are you doing that for protecting your people
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16:06 - 16:08against terrorist attacks,
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16:08 - 16:11or are you doing that for oppressing your people?
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16:11 - 16:13So that makes a fundamental difference.
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16:13 - 16:15But on the other hand,
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16:15 - 16:19also in a democracy, these
instruments can be abused, -
16:19 - 16:21and that is something where we really have
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16:21 - 16:23to be aware to stop that,
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16:23 - 16:26and that also the intelligence services
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16:26 - 16:29are respecting the rules we have.
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16:29 - 16:30The third point, probably,
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16:30 - 16:34we really can be happy that we live in a democracy,
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16:34 - 16:37because you can be sure that Russia and China
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16:37 - 16:39are doing the same,
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16:39 - 16:40but nobody speaks about that
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16:40 - 16:43because nobody could do that.
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16:43 - 16:48(Applause)
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16:49 - 16:51BG: When the story came out first,
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16:51 - 16:54last July, last year,
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16:54 - 16:56you filed a criminal complaint
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16:56 - 16:59with a German tribunal. Why?
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16:59 - 17:03HK: Yeah, I did so because of
the second point I mentioned, -
17:03 - 17:06that I think especially in a democracy,
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17:06 - 17:09the rules are for everybody.
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17:09 - 17:11They are made for everybody, so it's not allowed
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17:11 - 17:15that any institution doesn't respect the rules.
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17:15 - 17:17In the criminal code of Germany, it's written
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17:17 - 17:19that it's not allowed to tap somebody
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17:19 - 17:21without the permission of the judge.
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17:21 - 17:25Fortunately, it's written in
the criminal code of Germany, -
17:25 - 17:29so if it's not respected, then I think
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17:29 - 17:31an investigation is necessary,
-
17:31 - 17:33and it took a very long time that
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17:33 - 17:35the public prosecutor of Germany started this,
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17:35 - 17:39and he started it only in the case of Angela Merkel,
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17:39 - 17:42and not in the case of all the
other people living in Germany. -
17:42 - 17:44BG: That doesn't surprise me because —
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17:44 - 17:46(Applause) —
-
17:46 - 17:50because of the story you told.
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17:50 - 17:52Seen from the outside, I live outside of Germany,
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17:52 - 17:54and I expected the Germans to react
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17:54 - 17:57much more strongly, immediately.
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17:57 - 18:00And instead, the reaction really came only
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18:00 - 18:02when Chancellor Merkel was revealed
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18:02 - 18:05as being wiretapped. Why so?
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18:05 - 18:07HK: I take it as a good sign,
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18:07 - 18:11because people feel secure in this democracy.
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18:11 - 18:14They aren't afraid that they will be arrested,
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18:14 - 18:17and if you leave this hall after the conference,
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18:17 - 18:19nobody has to be afraid that the secret police
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18:19 - 18:22is standing out and is arresting you.
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18:22 - 18:23So that's a good sign, I think.
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18:23 - 18:26People are not really scared, as they could be.
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18:26 - 18:31But of course, I think, the institutions
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18:31 - 18:33are responsible to stop illegal actions
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18:33 - 18:36in Germany or wherever they happen.
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18:36 - 18:39BG: A personal question,
and this is the last one. -
18:39 - 18:42There has been a debate in Germany about
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18:42 - 18:43granting asylum to Edward Snowden.
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18:43 - 18:46Would you be in favor or against?
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18:46 - 18:48HK: Oh, that's a difficult question,
-
18:48 - 18:49but if you ask me,
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18:49 - 18:51and if I answer honestly,
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18:51 - 18:53I would give him the asylum,
-
18:53 - 18:55because I think it was really brave what he did,
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18:55 - 18:58and he destroyed his whole life
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18:58 - 18:59and his family and everything.
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18:59 - 19:02So I think, for these people,
we should do something, -
19:02 - 19:07and especially if you see the German history,
-
19:07 - 19:09where so many people had to escape
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19:09 - 19:11and they asked for asylum in other countries
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19:11 - 19:13and they didn't get it,
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19:13 - 19:16so it would be a good sign to give him asylum.
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19:16 - 19:17(Applause)
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19:17 - 19:24BG: Hubertus, thank you very much.
- Title:
- The dark secrets of a surveillance state
- Speaker:
- Hubertus Knabe
- Description:
-
Tour the deep dark world of the East German state security agency known as Stasi. Uniquely powerful at spying on its citizens, until the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 the Stasi masterminded a system of surveillance and psychological pressure that kept the country under control for decades. Hubertus Knabe studies the Stasi — and was spied on by them. He shares stunning details from the fall of a surveillance state, and shows how easy it was for neighbor to turn on neighbor.
- Video Language:
- English
- Team:
- closed TED
- Project:
- TEDTalks
- Duration:
- 19:38
Morton Bast edited English subtitles for The dark secrets of a surveillance state | ||
Morton Bast approved English subtitles for The dark secrets of a surveillance state | ||
Morton Bast edited English subtitles for The dark secrets of a surveillance state | ||
Morton Bast edited English subtitles for The dark secrets of a surveillance state | ||
Morton Bast edited English subtitles for The dark secrets of a surveillance state | ||
Madeleine Aronson accepted English subtitles for The dark secrets of a surveillance state | ||
Madeleine Aronson edited English subtitles for The dark secrets of a surveillance state | ||
Madeleine Aronson edited English subtitles for The dark secrets of a surveillance state |