[Script Info]
Title: 
[Events]
Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:00.99,0:00:02.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This year, Germany is celebrating
Dialogue: 0,0:00:02.47,0:00:05.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the 25th anniversary of the peaceful revolution
Dialogue: 0,0:00:05.56,0:00:07.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in East Germany.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:07.09,0:00:11.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In 1989, the Communist regime was moved away,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:11.86,0:00:15.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Berlin Wall came down, and one year later,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:15.32,0:00:19.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the German Democratic Republic, the GDR,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:19.48,0:00:21.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the East was unified
Dialogue: 0,0:00:21.15,0:00:23.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with the Federal Republic of Germany in the West
Dialogue: 0,0:00:23.84,0:00:27.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to found today's Germany.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:27.12,0:00:30.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Among many other things, Germany inherited
Dialogue: 0,0:00:30.51,0:00:35.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the archives of the East German secret police,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:35.10,0:00:38.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,known as the Stasi.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:38.42,0:00:40.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Only two years after its dissolution,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:40.96,0:00:44.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,its documents were opened to the public,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:44.60,0:00:47.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and historians such as me started
Dialogue: 0,0:00:47.68,0:00:49.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to study these documents
Dialogue: 0,0:00:49.10,0:00:53.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to learn more about how the GDR surveillance state
Dialogue: 0,0:00:53.80,0:00:55.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,functioned.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:55.51,0:00:58.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Perhaps you have watched the movie
Dialogue: 0,0:00:58.30,0:01:00.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"The Lives of Others."
Dialogue: 0,0:01:00.34,0:01:05.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This movie made the Stasi known worldwide,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:05.09,0:01:07.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and as we live in an age where words
Dialogue: 0,0:01:07.94,0:01:11.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,such as "surveillance" or "wiretapping"
Dialogue: 0,0:01:11.23,0:01:13.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are on the front pages of newspapers,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:13.98,0:01:16.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I would like to speak about how the Stasi
Dialogue: 0,0:01:16.80,0:01:19.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really worked.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:19.20,0:01:21.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,At the beginning, let's have a short look
Dialogue: 0,0:01:21.97,0:01:23.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at the history of the Stasi,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:23.93,0:01:26.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it's really important for understanding
Dialogue: 0,0:01:26.22,0:01:29.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,its self-conception.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:29.71,0:01:32.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Its origins are located in Russia.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:32.42,0:01:34.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In 1917, the Russian Communists founded
Dialogue: 0,0:01:34.74,0:01:36.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Emergency Commission for Combating
Dialogue: 0,0:01:36.93,0:01:39.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Counter-Revolution and Sabotage,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:39.73,0:01:41.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,shortly Cheka.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:41.95,0:01:44.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was led by Felix Dzerzhinsky.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:44.96,0:01:48.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The Cheka was an instrument of the Communists
Dialogue: 0,0:01:48.20,0:01:51.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to establish their regime by terrorizing the population
Dialogue: 0,0:01:51.96,0:01:54.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and executing their enemies.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:54.44,0:02:00.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It evolved later into the well-known KGB.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:00.24,0:02:03.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The Cheka was the idol of the Stasi officers.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:03.75,0:02:06.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They called themselves Chekists,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:06.82,0:02:09.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and even the emblem was very similar,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:09.68,0:02:12.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as you can see here.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:12.66,0:02:16.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In fact, the secret police of Russia
Dialogue: 0,0:02:16.23,0:02:19.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was the creator and instructor of the Stasi.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:19.52,0:02:23.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When the Red Army occupied East Germany in 1945,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:23.11,0:02:25.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it immediately expanded there,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:25.50,0:02:29.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and soon it started to train the German Communists
Dialogue: 0,0:02:29.12,0:02:32.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to build up their own secret police.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:32.37,0:02:35.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,By the way, in this hall where we are now,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:35.89,0:02:41.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the ruling party of the GDR was founded in 1946.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:41.57,0:02:44.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Five years later, the Stasi was established,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:44.95,0:02:47.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and step by step, the dirty job of oppression
Dialogue: 0,0:02:47.57,0:02:50.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was handed over to it.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:50.11,0:02:52.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,For instance, the central jail
Dialogue: 0,0:02:52.54,0:02:53.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for political prisoners,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:53.86,0:02:56.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which was established by the Russians,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:56.60,0:02:58.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was taken over by the Stasi
Dialogue: 0,0:02:58.86,0:03:02.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and used until the end of Communism.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:02.05,0:03:03.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You see it here.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:03.85,0:03:07.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,At the beginning, every important step
Dialogue: 0,0:03:07.48,0:03:11.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,took place under the attendance of the Russians.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:11.04,0:03:14.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the Germans are known to be very effective,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:14.14,0:03:17.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so the Stasi grew very quickly,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:17.52,0:03:21.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and already in 1953, it had more employees
Dialogue: 0,0:03:21.21,0:03:22.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,than the Gestapo had,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:22.90,0:03:25.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the secret police of Nazi Germany.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:25.70,0:03:28.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The number doubled in each decade.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:28.13,0:03:31.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In 1989, more than 90,000 employees
Dialogue: 0,0:03:31.56,0:03:33.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,worked for the Stasi.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:33.22,0:03:35.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This meant that one employee
Dialogue: 0,0:03:35.60,0:03:38.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was responsible for 180 inhabitants,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:38.81,0:03:42.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which was really unique in the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:42.81,0:03:45.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,At the top of this tremendous apparatus,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:45.40,0:03:49.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there was one man, Erich Mielke.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:49.19,0:03:51.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He ruled the Ministry of State Security
Dialogue: 0,0:03:51.45,0:03:53.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for more than 30 years.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:53.77,0:03:56.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He was a scrupulous functionary —
Dialogue: 0,0:03:56.40,0:03:59.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in his past, he killed two policemen
Dialogue: 0,0:03:59.12,0:04:01.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not far away from here —
Dialogue: 0,0:04:01.13,0:04:05.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who in fact personalized the Stasi.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:05.20,0:04:09.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But what was so exceptional about the Stasi?
Dialogue: 0,0:04:09.69,0:04:12.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Foremost, it was its enormous power,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:12.60,0:04:16.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it united different functions
Dialogue: 0,0:04:16.09,0:04:18.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in one organization.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:18.36,0:04:20.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,First of all, the Stasi
Dialogue: 0,0:04:20.48,0:04:23.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was an intelligence service.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:23.57,0:04:26.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It used all the imaginable instruments
Dialogue: 0,0:04:26.05,0:04:28.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for getting information secretly,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:28.33,0:04:31.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,such as informers, or tapping phones,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:31.93,0:04:34.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as you can see it on the picture here.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:34.80,0:04:37.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it was not only active in East Germany,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:37.81,0:04:40.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but all over the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:40.54,0:04:44.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Secondly, the Stasi was a secret police.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:44.51,0:04:46.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It could stop people on the street
Dialogue: 0,0:04:46.65,0:04:51.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and arrest them in its own prisons.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:51.08,0:04:52.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thirdly, the Stasi worked
Dialogue: 0,0:04:52.58,0:04:55.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as a kind of public prosecutor.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:55.44,0:04:58.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It had the right to open preliminary investigations
Dialogue: 0,0:04:58.56,0:05:02.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and to interrogate people officially.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:02.26,0:05:04.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Last but not least,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:04.35,0:05:08.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Stasi had its own armed forces.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:08.22,0:05:10.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,More than 11,000 soldiers were serving
Dialogue: 0,0:05:10.22,0:05:13.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in its so-called Guards Regiment.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:13.73,0:05:18.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was founded to crash down protests and uprisings.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:18.15,0:05:20.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Due to this concentration of power,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:20.88,0:05:25.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Stasi was called a state in the state.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:25.94,0:05:28.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But let's look in more and more detail
Dialogue: 0,0:05:28.20,0:05:30.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at the tools of the Stasi.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:30.82,0:05:32.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Please keep in mind that at that time
Dialogue: 0,0:05:32.46,0:05:36.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the web and smartphones were not yet invented.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:36.28,0:05:39.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Of course, the Stasi used all kinds
Dialogue: 0,0:05:39.52,0:05:42.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of technical instruments to survey people.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:42.60,0:05:44.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Telephones were wiretapped,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:44.71,0:05:48.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,including the phone of the\NGerman chancellor in the West,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:48.85,0:05:51.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and often also the apartments.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:51.80,0:05:55.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Every day, 90,000 letters were being opened
Dialogue: 0,0:05:55.20,0:05:58.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by these machines.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:58.54,0:06:02.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The Stasi also shadowed\Ntens of thousands of people
Dialogue: 0,0:06:02.24,0:06:05.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,using specially trained agents and secret cameras
Dialogue: 0,0:06:05.47,0:06:09.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to document every step one took.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:09.01,0:06:11.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In this picture, you can see me
Dialogue: 0,0:06:11.67,0:06:15.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as a young man just in front of this building
Dialogue: 0,0:06:15.15,0:06:18.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where we are now, photographed by a Stasi agent.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:18.91,0:06:23.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The Stasi even collected the smell of people.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:23.30,0:06:26.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It stored samples of it in closed jars
Dialogue: 0,0:06:26.56,0:06:31.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which were found after the peaceful revolution.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:31.02,0:06:35.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,For all these tasks, highly specialized departments
Dialogue: 0,0:06:35.26,0:06:37.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were responsible.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:37.63,0:06:39.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The one which was tapping phone calls
Dialogue: 0,0:06:39.81,0:06:41.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was completely separated
Dialogue: 0,0:06:41.70,0:06:44.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the one which controlled the letters,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:44.24,0:06:45.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for good reasons,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:45.54,0:06:50.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because if one agent quit the Stasi,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:50.22,0:06:52.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,his knowledge was very small.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:52.13,0:06:56.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Contrast that with Snowden, for example.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:56.12,0:06:59.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the vertical specialization was also important
Dialogue: 0,0:06:59.20,0:07:01.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to prevent all kinds of empathy
Dialogue: 0,0:07:01.50,0:07:04.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with the object of observation.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:04.50,0:07:06.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The agent who shadowed me
Dialogue: 0,0:07:06.80,0:07:08.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,didn't know who I was
Dialogue: 0,0:07:08.66,0:07:10.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or why I was surveyed.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:10.52,0:07:12.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In fact, I smuggled forbidden books
Dialogue: 0,0:07:12.14,0:07:15.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from West to East Germany.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:15.03,0:07:18.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But what was even more typical for the Stasi
Dialogue: 0,0:07:18.22,0:07:21.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was the use of human intelligence,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:21.38,0:07:25.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people who reported secretly to the Stasi.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:25.58,0:07:27.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,For the Minister of State Security,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:27.38,0:07:30.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these so-called unofficial employees
Dialogue: 0,0:07:30.29,0:07:33.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were the most important tools.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:33.19,0:07:38.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,From 1975 on, nearly 200,000 people
Dialogue: 0,0:07:38.51,0:07:41.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,collaborated constantly with the Stasi,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:41.35,0:07:46.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more than one percent of the population.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:46.22,0:07:48.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in a way, the minister was right,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:48.95,0:07:50.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because technical instruments
Dialogue: 0,0:07:50.89,0:07:54.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can only register what people are doing,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:54.46,0:07:57.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but agents and spies can also report
Dialogue: 0,0:07:57.77,0:07:59.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what people are planning to do
Dialogue: 0,0:07:59.47,0:08:01.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and what they are thinking.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:01.83,0:08:06.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Therefore, the Stasi recruited so many informants.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:06.62,0:08:09.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The system of how to get them
Dialogue: 0,0:08:09.46,0:08:12.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and how to educate them, as it was called,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:12.49,0:08:15.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was very sophisticated.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:15.18,0:08:18.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The Stasi had its own university,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:18.09,0:08:19.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not far away from here,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:19.61,0:08:21.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where the methods were explored
Dialogue: 0,0:08:21.54,0:08:24.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and taught to the officers.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:24.20,0:08:27.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This guideline gave a detailed description
Dialogue: 0,0:08:27.96,0:08:30.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of every step you have to take
Dialogue: 0,0:08:30.58,0:08:32.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you want to convince human beings
Dialogue: 0,0:08:32.94,0:08:36.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to betray their fellow citizens.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:36.92,0:08:40.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sometimes it's said that informants were pressured
Dialogue: 0,0:08:40.26,0:08:41.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to becoming one,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:41.72,0:08:44.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but that's mostly not true,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:44.31,0:08:48.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because a forced informant is a bad informant.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:48.22,0:08:51.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Only someone who wants to give\Nyou the information you need
Dialogue: 0,0:08:51.31,0:08:53.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is an effective whistleblower.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:53.97,0:08:58.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The main reasons why people\Ncooperated with the Stasi
Dialogue: 0,0:08:58.83,0:09:04.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were political conviction and material benefits.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:04.33,0:09:07.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The officers also tried to create a personal bond
Dialogue: 0,0:09:07.44,0:09:10.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between themselves and the informant,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:10.85,0:09:16.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and to be honest, the example of the Stasi shows
Dialogue: 0,0:09:16.00,0:09:19.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that it's not so difficult to win someone
Dialogue: 0,0:09:19.39,0:09:22.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in order to betray others.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:22.84,0:09:26.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Even some of the top dissidents in East Germany
Dialogue: 0,0:09:26.59,0:09:28.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,collaborated with the Stasi,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:28.42,0:09:32.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as for instance Ibrahim Böhme.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:32.17,0:09:34.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In 1989, he was the leader of the peaceful revolution
Dialogue: 0,0:09:34.96,0:09:39.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and he nearly became the first freely\Nelected Prime Minister of the GDR
Dialogue: 0,0:09:39.33,0:09:44.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,until it came out that he was an informant.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:44.48,0:09:48.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The net of spies was really broad.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:48.40,0:09:50.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In nearly every institution,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:50.11,0:09:53.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even in the churches or in West Germany,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:53.36,0:09:55.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there were many of them.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:55.54,0:09:59.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I remember telling a leading Stasi officer,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:59.03,0:10:02.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"If you had sent an informant to me,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:02.46,0:10:05.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I would surely have recognized him."
Dialogue: 0,0:10:05.09,0:10:06.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,His answer was,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:06.95,0:10:08.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"We didn't send anyone.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:08.39,0:10:11.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We took those who were around you."
Dialogue: 0,0:10:11.42,0:10:14.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in fact, two of my best friends
Dialogue: 0,0:10:14.07,0:10:18.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,reported about me to the Stasi.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:18.40,0:10:20.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Not only in my case, informers were very close.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:20.99,0:10:24.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,For example, Vera Lengsfeld,\Nanother leading dissident,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:24.69,0:10:28.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in her case it was her husband who spied on her.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:28.91,0:10:32.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A famous writer was betrayed by his brother.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:32.26,0:10:36.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This reminds me of the novel "1984" by George Orwell,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:36.15,0:10:39.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where the only apparently trustable person
Dialogue: 0,0:10:39.23,0:10:42.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was an informer.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:42.04,0:10:45.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But why did the Stasi collect all this information
Dialogue: 0,0:10:45.74,0:10:47.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in its archives?
Dialogue: 0,0:10:47.66,0:10:51.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The main purpose was to control the society.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:51.72,0:10:54.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In nearly every speech, the Stasi minister
Dialogue: 0,0:10:54.30,0:10:57.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,gave the order to find out who is who,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:57.02,0:11:00.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which meant who thinks what.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:00.12,0:11:01.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He didn't want to wait until somebody
Dialogue: 0,0:11:01.87,0:11:04.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tried to act against the regime.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:04.39,0:11:06.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He wanted to know in advance
Dialogue: 0,0:11:06.28,0:11:09.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what people were thinking and planning.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:09.18,0:11:11.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The East Germans knew, of course,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:11.100,0:11:15.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they were surrounded by informers,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:15.17,0:11:19.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in a totalitarian regime that created mistrust
Dialogue: 0,0:11:19.14,0:11:22.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and a state of widespread fear,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:22.23,0:11:25.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the most important tools to oppress people
Dialogue: 0,0:11:25.75,0:11:27.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in any dictatorship.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:27.91,0:11:30.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's why not many East Germans tried
Dialogue: 0,0:11:30.51,0:11:34.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to fight against the Communist regime.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:34.80,0:11:39.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If yes, the Stasi often used a method
Dialogue: 0,0:11:39.38,0:11:42.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which was really diabolic.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:42.05,0:11:44.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was called Zersetzung,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:44.24,0:11:47.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it's described in another guideline.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:47.91,0:11:50.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The word is difficult to translate because it means
Dialogue: 0,0:11:50.71,0:11:54.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,originally "biodegradation."
Dialogue: 0,0:11:54.60,0:11:57.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But actually, it's a quite accurate description.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:57.96,0:12:01.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The goal was to destroy secretly
Dialogue: 0,0:12:01.52,0:12:04.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the self-confidence of people,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:04.41,0:12:07.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for example by damaging their reputation,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:07.52,0:12:10.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by organizing failures in their work,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:10.99,0:12:15.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and by destroying their personal relationships.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:15.62,0:12:20.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Considering this, East Germany\Nwas a very modern dictatorship.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:20.100,0:12:25.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The Stasi didn't try to arrest every dissident.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:25.37,0:12:28.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It preferred to paralyze them,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:28.46,0:12:30.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it could do so because
Dialogue: 0,0:12:30.96,0:12:34.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it had access to so much personal information
Dialogue: 0,0:12:34.31,0:12:38.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and to so many institutions.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:38.24,0:12:40.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Detaining someone was used only
Dialogue: 0,0:12:40.51,0:12:43.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as a last resort.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:43.04,0:12:46.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,For this, the Stasi owned 17 remand prisons,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:46.35,0:12:48.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one in every district.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:48.86,0:12:51.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Here, the Stasi also developed
Dialogue: 0,0:12:51.54,0:12:55.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,quite modern methods of detention.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:55.98,0:12:57.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Normally, the interrogation officer
Dialogue: 0,0:12:57.76,0:13:01.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,didn't torture the prisoner.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:01.23,0:13:03.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Instead, he used a sophisticated system
Dialogue: 0,0:13:03.80,0:13:05.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of psychological pressure
Dialogue: 0,0:13:05.94,0:13:10.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in which strict isolation was central.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:10.03,0:13:12.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Nearly no prisoner resisted
Dialogue: 0,0:13:12.32,0:13:15.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,without giving a testimony.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:15.55,0:13:17.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you have the occasion,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:17.61,0:13:21.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do visit the former Stasi prison in Berlin
Dialogue: 0,0:13:21.06,0:13:24.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and attend a guided tour\Nwith a former political prisoner
Dialogue: 0,0:13:24.65,0:13:27.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who will explain to you how this worked.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:27.50,0:13:30.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One more question needs to be answered:
Dialogue: 0,0:13:30.66,0:13:33.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If the Stasi were so well organized,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:33.11,0:13:37.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,why did the Communist regime collapse?
Dialogue: 0,0:13:37.44,0:13:41.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,First, in 1989, the leadership in East Germany
Dialogue: 0,0:13:41.57,0:13:43.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was uncertain what to do against
Dialogue: 0,0:13:43.83,0:13:46.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the growing protest of people.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:46.77,0:13:49.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was especially confused
Dialogue: 0,0:13:49.12,0:13:51.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because in the mother country of socialism,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:51.89,0:13:53.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Soviet Union,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:53.41,0:13:56.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a more liberal policy took place.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:56.79,0:13:59.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In addition, the regime was dependent
Dialogue: 0,0:13:59.21,0:14:02.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the loans from the West.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:02.60,0:14:05.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Therefore, no order to crash down the uprising
Dialogue: 0,0:14:05.15,0:14:08.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was given to the Stasi.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:08.23,0:14:11.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Secondly, in the Communist ideology,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:11.86,0:14:14.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's no place for criticism.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:14.51,0:14:16.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Instead, the leadership stuck to the belief
Dialogue: 0,0:14:16.82,0:14:19.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that socialism is a perfect system,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:19.61,0:14:23.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the Stasi had to confirm that, of course.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:23.86,0:14:26.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The consequence was
Dialogue: 0,0:14:26.23,0:14:28.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that despite all the information,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:28.72,0:14:32.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the regime couldn't analyze its real problems,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:32.89,0:14:35.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and therefore it couldn't solve them.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:35.57,0:14:38.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In the end, the Stasi died
Dialogue: 0,0:14:38.28,0:14:40.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because of the structures
Dialogue: 0,0:14:40.07,0:14:43.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that it was charged with protecting.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:43.79,0:14:45.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The ending of the Stasi
Dialogue: 0,0:14:45.86,0:14:47.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was something tragic,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:47.90,0:14:49.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because these officers
Dialogue: 0,0:14:49.96,0:14:53.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were kept busy during the peaceful revolution
Dialogue: 0,0:14:53.03,0:14:55.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with only one thing:
Dialogue: 0,0:14:55.01,0:14:57.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to destroy the documents
Dialogue: 0,0:14:57.66,0:15:01.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they had produced during decades.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:01.35,0:15:03.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Fortunately,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:03.27,0:15:06.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they had been stopped by human rights activists.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:06.81,0:15:09.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's why today we can use the files
Dialogue: 0,0:15:09.73,0:15:11.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to get a better understanding
Dialogue: 0,0:15:11.36,0:15:14.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of how a surveillance state functions.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:14.14,0:15:16.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:16.13,0:15:20.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Applause)
Dialogue: 0,0:15:24.52,0:15:30.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Bruno Giussani: Thank you. Thank you very much.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:30.58,0:15:33.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So Hubertus, I want to ask you a couple of questions
Dialogue: 0,0:15:33.30,0:15:36.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because I have here Der Spiegel from last week.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:36.09,0:15:40.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Mein Nachbar NSA." My neighbor, the NSA.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:40.96,0:15:43.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you just told us about my neighbor,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:43.60,0:15:46.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the spies and the informant from East Germany.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:46.58,0:15:49.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So there is a direct link between these two stories
Dialogue: 0,0:15:49.28,0:15:51.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or there isn't?
Dialogue: 0,0:15:51.16,0:15:53.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What's your reaction as a\Nhistorian when you see this?
Dialogue: 0,0:15:53.18,0:15:54.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Hubertus Knabe: I think there are
Dialogue: 0,0:15:54.91,0:15:56.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,several aspects to mention.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:56.81,0:15:59.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,At first, I think there's a difference
Dialogue: 0,0:15:59.88,0:16:03.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of why you are collecting this data.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:03.96,0:16:06.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Are you doing that for protecting your people
Dialogue: 0,0:16:06.28,0:16:07.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,against terrorist attacks,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:07.83,0:16:10.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or are you doing that for oppressing your people?
Dialogue: 0,0:16:10.60,0:16:12.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that makes a fundamental difference.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:12.54,0:16:14.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But on the other hand,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:14.89,0:16:19.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,also in a democracy, these\Ninstruments can be abused,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:19.21,0:16:21.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that is something where we really have
Dialogue: 0,0:16:21.38,0:16:22.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be aware to stop that,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:22.76,0:16:25.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that also the intelligence services
Dialogue: 0,0:16:25.63,0:16:28.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are respecting the rules we have.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:28.76,0:16:30.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The third point, probably,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:30.26,0:16:33.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we really can be happy that we live in a democracy,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:33.54,0:16:37.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because you can be sure that Russia and China
Dialogue: 0,0:16:37.22,0:16:38.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are doing the same,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:38.76,0:16:40.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but nobody speaks about that
Dialogue: 0,0:16:40.32,0:16:42.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because nobody could do that.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:42.61,0:16:47.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Applause)
Dialogue: 0,0:16:49.40,0:16:51.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,BG: When the story came out first,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:51.45,0:16:53.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,last July, last year,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:53.65,0:16:56.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you filed a criminal complaint
Dialogue: 0,0:16:56.47,0:16:59.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with a German tribunal. Why?
Dialogue: 0,0:16:59.45,0:17:02.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,HK: Yeah, I did so because of\Nthe second point I mentioned,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:02.67,0:17:05.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I think especially in a democracy,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:05.56,0:17:09.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the rules are for everybody.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:09.02,0:17:11.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They are made for everybody, so it's not allowed
Dialogue: 0,0:17:11.39,0:17:15.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that any institution doesn't respect the rules.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:15.18,0:17:17.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In the criminal code of Germany, it's written
Dialogue: 0,0:17:17.16,0:17:19.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that it's not allowed to tap somebody
Dialogue: 0,0:17:19.01,0:17:21.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,without the permission of the judge.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:21.40,0:17:25.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Fortunately, it's written in\Nthe criminal code of Germany,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:25.22,0:17:29.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so if it's not respected, then I think
Dialogue: 0,0:17:29.15,0:17:31.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an investigation is necessary,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:31.05,0:17:33.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it took a very long time that
Dialogue: 0,0:17:33.02,0:17:35.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the public prosecutor of Germany started this,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:35.13,0:17:38.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and he started it only in the case of Angela Merkel,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:38.70,0:17:41.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and not in the case of all the\Nother people living in Germany.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:41.66,0:17:44.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,BG: That doesn't surprise me because —
Dialogue: 0,0:17:44.13,0:17:46.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Applause) —
Dialogue: 0,0:17:46.25,0:17:49.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because of the story you told.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:49.70,0:17:52.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Seen from the outside, I live outside of Germany,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:52.18,0:17:53.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I expected the Germans to react
Dialogue: 0,0:17:53.96,0:17:57.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,much more strongly, immediately.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:57.18,0:17:59.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And instead, the reaction really came only
Dialogue: 0,0:17:59.79,0:18:01.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when Chancellor Merkel was revealed
Dialogue: 0,0:18:01.65,0:18:05.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as being wiretapped. Why so?
Dialogue: 0,0:18:05.20,0:18:07.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,HK: I take it as a good sign,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:07.06,0:18:11.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because people feel secure in this democracy.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:11.39,0:18:13.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They aren't afraid that they will be arrested,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:13.61,0:18:16.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and if you leave this hall after the conference,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:16.77,0:18:19.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,nobody has to be afraid that the secret police
Dialogue: 0,0:18:19.34,0:18:21.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is standing out and is arresting you.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:21.77,0:18:23.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that's a good sign, I think.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:23.37,0:18:26.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,People are not really scared, as they could be.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:26.24,0:18:30.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But of course, I think, the institutions
Dialogue: 0,0:18:30.60,0:18:33.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are responsible to stop illegal actions
Dialogue: 0,0:18:33.16,0:18:36.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Germany or wherever they happen.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:36.28,0:18:39.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,BG: A personal question,\Nand this is the last one.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:39.47,0:18:41.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There has been a debate in Germany about
Dialogue: 0,0:18:41.74,0:18:43.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,granting asylum to Edward Snowden.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:43.28,0:18:46.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Would you be in favor or against?
Dialogue: 0,0:18:46.05,0:18:47.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,HK: Oh, that's a difficult question,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:47.73,0:18:49.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but if you ask me,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:49.42,0:18:51.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and if I answer honestly,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:51.08,0:18:52.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I would give him the asylum,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:52.84,0:18:54.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because I think it was really brave what he did,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:54.89,0:18:57.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and he destroyed his whole life
Dialogue: 0,0:18:57.50,0:18:59.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and his family and everything.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:59.17,0:19:02.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I think, for these people,\Nwe should do something,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:02.38,0:19:06.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and especially if you see the German history,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:06.53,0:19:09.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where so many people had to escape
Dialogue: 0,0:19:09.03,0:19:11.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they asked for asylum in other countries
Dialogue: 0,0:19:11.35,0:19:12.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they didn't get it,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:12.73,0:19:15.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so it would be a good sign to give him asylum.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:15.57,0:19:17.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Applause)
Dialogue: 0,0:19:17.38,0:19:23.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,BG: Hubertus, thank you very much.