[Full Video] Gestalt Therapy - Fritz Perls' session with Gloria (Three Approaches to Psychotherapy)

Psychotherapy is
sometimes described

as a process of helping
a person to help himself.

This film is the second in a
series of three films designed

to show how this
process works with three

different therapists.

First, you've seen Dr. Carl
Rogers, founder of client

centered therapy at work with
Gloria, our real, live patient.

Now we invite you to
observe Dr. Frederick

Perls, founder of Gestalt
therapy, with the same patient.

He will first describe
his system of therapy

and then demonstrate his work.

Following, he will
comment briefly.

Now, Dr. Frederick Perls.

I am to interview a patient.

And I'd like to give you
some thumbnail sketch of what

gestalt therapy stands for.

Gestalt therapy is working
on an equation, awareness,

equal present time,
equal reality.

In contrast to
depth psychology, we

try to get hold of the
obvious, of the surface,

of the situation in
which we find ourselves

and to develop the
emerging gestalt strictly

on the I and thou,
here and now basis.

Any escape into the
future or the past

is examined as a
likely resistance

against the ongoing encounter.

Modern man has alienated, given
up so much of his potential

that his ability to
cope with his existence

becomes badly impoverished.

My aim is this,
the patient should

recover his lost potential.

He should integrate the
conflicting polarities.

Understand the difference
between game playing,

especially the playing of
verbal games, on the one hand,

and of genuine, authentic,
confident behavior

on the other.

The civil war of inner
conflict weakens the efficiency

and comfort of the patient.

But every bit of integration
will strengthen it.

Now, in the safe emergency of
the therapeutic situation, I

repeat, in the safe emergency
of the therapeutic situation,

the patient begins to take risks
and to transform his energies

from manipulating the
environment for support

into developing greater and
greater self support that is

reliant on his own resources.

This process is
called maturation.

Once the patient has learned
to stand on his own feet

emotionally, intellectually,
and economically,

his need for therapy
will collapse.

He will wake up from the
nightmare of his existence.

The basic technique is
this, not to explain things

to the patient, but to provide
the patient with opportunities

to understand and
to discover himself.

For this purpose, I
manipulate and prostrate

the patient in such a way that
he is confronting himself.

In this process he identifies
with his lost potential,

for instance, through
assimilating his projections

by acting out, by acting out
the alien parts of himself.

Principally, I consider
any interpretation

to be a therapeutic
mistake as this

would imply that the therapist
understands the patient better

than the patient himself.

It takes away from the patient
a chance of discovering himself

by himself and prevents him
from finding out his own values

and style.

On the other hand,
I disregard most

of the content of
what the patient says

and concentrate most
on the non-verbal level

as this is the only one which is
less subject to self deception.

In his verbal
pseudo-self expression

on the non-vocal level,
the relevant gestalt

will always emerge and can be
dealt with in the here and now.

We are going to have an
interview for half an hour.

Right away I'm scared.

You say you're scared
but you're smiling.

I do not understand
how one can be scared

and smile at the same time.

And I'm also suspicious of you.

I think you
understand very well.

I think you know that
when I get scared,

I laugh or I kid to cover up.

Do you have stage fright?

I don't know.

I'm mostly aware of you.

I'm afraid that--

I'm afraid you're
going to have such

a direct attack that you're
going to get me in the corner.

And I'm afraid about it.

I want you to be
more on my side.

You said I'll get
you into your corner.

And you put your
hand on your chest.

Is this your corner?

Well, yeah, it's
like I'm afraid.

Where would you like to go?

Can you describe the
corner you like to go to?

Yeah.

It's back in a corner where
I'm completely protected.

There you would be
safe of me, from me?

Well, I know I wouldn't really.

But it feels safer.

You made your way
into this corner

and you're perfectly safe now.

What would you do
in that corner?

I'd just sit.

You would just sit.

Yes.

Now, how long would you sit?

I don't know.

But this is so funny.

As you're saying
this, this reminds

me of when I was a little girl.

Every time I was afraid,
I'd feel better sitting

in a corner, but panicky.

OK, are you a little girl?

Well, no.

But it's the same feeling.

Are you a little girl?

This feeling reminds me of it.

Are you a little girl?

No.

No.

No.

No at last.

Well, what are you?

30.

Then you're not a little girl?

No.

OK.

So you are a 30 year old girl
who's afraid of a guy like me?

I don't even know.

Yeah, I do know I'll
be afraid of you.

I get real defensive with you.

Now, what can I do to you?

You can't do anything.

But I can sure feel dumb.

And I can feel stupid for
not having the right answers.

Now, what would it do to
you to feel dumb and stupid?

I hate it when I'm stupid.

What would it do for you
to be dumb and stupid?

Let me put it
something like this,

what would you do to me if you
would play dumb and stupid?

That makes you all the smarter
and all the higher above me.

And I really have to look up
to you because you're so smart.

Oh, yeah, and butter
me up right and left.

No, I think you can do
that all by yourself.

I think the other way around.

If you play dumb and stupid, you
force me to be more explicit.

That's been said to me before.

But I don't buy it.

I don't--

Now what you are doing
with your feet now?

Wiggling them.

What is the joke now?

Oh, I'm afraid you're going to
notice everything I do, gee.

Can't you help me?

I want you to help me
become more relaxed, yes.

I don't want to be so
defensive with you.

I don't like to
feel so defensive.

You're acting like,
you're treating me

as if I'm stronger than I am.

And I want you to protect
me more and be nicer to me.

By way of your smile,
you don't believe

a word of what you said.

I do too.

And I know you're going
to pick on me for it.

Sure, your bluff.

You're a phony.

Do you believe-- are you
meaning that seriously?

Yeah.

If you say you are
afraid and you laugh

and you giggle and you squirm.

That's phony.

You're putting a
performance for me.

Oh, I resent that very much.

Can you express this?

Yes sir.

I most certainly
am not being phony.

I will admit this, it's hard
for me to show my embarrassment.

And I hate to be embarrassed.

But boy I resent you
calling me a phony.

Just because I smile
when I'm embarrassed

or I'm put in a corner doesn't
mean I'm being a phony.

Wonderful thank you.

You didn't squirm
for the last minute.

Well I'm mad at you.

I--

That's all right.

You didn't have to cover up
your anger with your smile.

Now in that moment, in that
minute, you were not a phony.

Well at that minute
I was mad, though.

I wasn't embarrassed.

Now, when you're mad,
you're not a phony.

I still resent that.

I'm not a phony
when I'm nervous.

What is this you are doing?

Again.

I want to get mad at you.

I, I, I, I.

I want you on my level so I
can pick on you just as much

as you're picking on me.

OK, pick on me.

I have to wait till you say
something that I can pick on.

What does this mean?

Can you develop this movement?

It's, uh, I can't find words.

I want to--

Develop this as if
you were dancing.

I will start all
over again with you.

OK.

Let's start all over.

I know what corner I'd
like to put you in.

I'd like to ask you a question.

Because I have a feeling
you don't like me

right off the bat.

And I want to know if you do.

Can you now play Fritz
Perls not liking Gloria.

What would he say?

He'd say that she's
a phony, for one.

Say, you are a phony.

You're a phony.

And you're a flip little girl.

And you're a show off.

What would Gloria
answer to that?

I know what I'd answer.

I'd say I think you are too.

Now tell this to me.

Tell me what a phony I am.

No, I'm--

Say, Fritz you're a phony.

Well, phony is not
quite the right word.

But it's more like a show off.

A show off?

Like you know all the answers.

And I want you to be more human.

And that doesn't seem
very human to me.

To know all the answers
is not really human?

Yeah to right away find out
why I'm kicking my feet.

And why am I doing like this?

Why are you doing like that?

Oh dear, I've got eyes.

I can see you're
kicking your feet.

I don't need a
scientific computer

to see that you are
kicking your feet.

What's big about that?

You don't need to be wise to
see that you kick your feet.

I know.

But it seems like you're trying
to find some reason for it.

I don't.

This is your imagination.

OK.

I know what I'd like from you.

Can I tell you what
I'd like from you?

I'd like you to be aware
that I'm kicking my feet

and to be aware that
I'm giggling when

I'm really nervous and accept
it instead of putting me

on the defensive
having to explain it.

I don't want to have to explain
why I'm doing these things.

Did I ask you to explain them?

You said, why am I?

Or what am I doing?

No.

What am I doing, you said.

That's right, kicking your feet.

I didn't ask you to explain.

This is your imagination.

That not this Fritz.

It's the Fritz of
your imagination.

There's a big difference.

Now do this again.

Again.

How do you feel now?

I don't know.

Playing stupid?

I'm not playing stupid?

You see, I don't know
this is playing stupid.

You did something
with your hair there.

Is there by any chance something
in my hair that you object to?

No.

No?

OK.

No, but your hair
and your features

go along with the feeling
I had about you earlier.

I had a feeling I
could be afraid of you.

And you're the
type of person that

seems like you demand
so much respect.

And so your--

Please play Fritz.

I demand so much respect.

Play this Fritz you just saw.

Well, you know how smart I am.

I know more about psychology
than you do, Gloria.

So anything I say,
of course, is right.

Can you say the same as Gloria,
something similar as Gloria

with the same act as Gloria?

I demand respect because?

I don't know.

You don't know?

No, I don't.

I identify it with my father.

But not me.

I don't feel I demand respect.

You do demand respect.

No.

Sure you do.

As a matter of
fact, I'd like more.

I'd like you respect me more.

Now, you see?

So you demand respect.

All right, yes.

Yes, as a matter of fact, if I
could demand respect from you,

I would.

Do it.

Who's preventing
you, except yourself.

Because I feel if I get
myself out on the corner,

you're going to
let me just drown.

You're not going
to help me one bit.

And I know that I can't quite
come up to standards with you.

What should I do when
you are in the corner?

Encourage me to come out.

Oh.

You don't have enough
courage to come by yourself?

You need somebody
pull little damsel

in distress out of her corner?

Yes.

So any time you want somebody
to pay attention to you,

you crawl into a corner and
wait until the rescuer comes.

Yes that's exactly
what I'd like.

And this is what I call phony.

Pardon me?

This is what I call phony.

Why is it phony?

I'm admitting to you what I am.

How is that a phony?

That is a phony.

Oh?

Because it's a trick.

It's a gimmick, to
crawl into a corner

and wait there until somebody
comes to your rescue.

I'm admitting it.

I know what I'm doing.

I'm not being phony.

I'm not pretending I'm so brave.

I resent that.

I feel like you're saying unless
I come out openly and stand

on my own I'm not a phony.

Baloney!

I'm just as real
sitting in that corner

as I am out here all by myself.

But you're not sitting
in that corner.

Well, I'm not now.

And besides that, it's
like passing judgment

when you call me phony.

I just hate that anyway.

Now we are getting somewhere.

I call anybody phony
who puts on an act.

And if you like somebody,
you want to meet this person,

to go to this person, tell
them I would like to meet you,

I would call not phony.

But if you coyishly go into that
corner waiting to be rescued,

this I call phony.

I still think
you're judgemental.

You know what I have a
feeling, you've never

felt this way in your life.

You feel so secure that
you don't have to feel.

Anybody that does
something like this,

you are going pass judgment
on their being a phony.

Well I resent it.

Good.

Now play Fritz passing judgment.

You are you sitting up
there in your chair.

Play Fritz.

I am Fritz.

I pass judgment.

Pass judgment on me now.

I don't feel close to
you at all Dr. Perls.

I feel that's phony.

I feel like you're
playing one big game.

Right.

Sure we play games.

But in spite of
the games, I think

I've touched you now and then.

I think I hurt you when
I called you a phony.

Well, of course you did.

And I think I hit a bullseye.

That's why you feel hurt.

I don't know.

All I know is when I feel the
way I feel with you right now,

it's like you
don't have feeling.

Right.

Now exaggerate this.

What you just did.

That's it.

Now talk to me like this.

I can't.

I can't.

I want to laugh.

I'd like you to be younger than
me so I could really scold you.

How old must I be?

My age, 30.

Good, I'm 30 now.

Imagine I'm 30.

And now, you scold me.

OK.

Don't be so cocksure
of yourself.

Don't think you're
so doggone smart.

Don't act so proud
because you've never

been in the corner.

I think you can be just as
big a phony parading around

like you're so damn smart.

And you know all
the answers as much

as me sitting in my corner.

Oh, and I like the feeling
of you being younger.

I'd like to really
embarrass you.

Embarrass me.

Tell me what--

Well, you wouldn't
get embarrassed.

You seem to unaffected.

Tell me, embarrass me.

Tell me how odd, how ugly I am.

You don't look old and ugly.

You looked distinguished.

And that gives you, that's
all the more on your side,

if you look so
distinguished then, see.

That's more on your side, too.

Well, Gloria can we
say this one thing.

We had quite a good fight.

No.

No.

No.

I don't think you're
fighting with me.

But I felt you came
out quite a bit.

Well I'm mad at you.

Wonderful.

But you seem so detached.

You don't even seem to
care that I'm mad at you.

I feel like you're not
recognizing me at all Dr. Perls

not a bit.

This is quite true.

Our contact is much
too superficial

to be involved in caring.

I care for you as far as
you are right now my client.

I care for you as far as like
an artist, bring something out

which is hidden in you.

This is as far as I care.

Well, I'd like you to--

I'd like to feel that there's
some-- it's frustrating.

If I were to leave you right
now and not see you again,

it would frustrate
me to feel like there

hadn't been more contact.

I feel completely out
of contact with you,

like I'm talking to the baby
that doesn't understand me

or something like that.

I don't feel like
we're a bit in contact.

And oh, that frustrates me.

That bothers me more than
being angry with you.

I'd rather we were angry and
fought than to have no contact.

Yeah, this reminds me of when
my husband and I used to fight.

He sits there and
he listens to me.

But he's not even aware
of how much I hate him

and how mad I am at him.

I'd rather affect you.

You don't really
hate me or something.

And I feel like you're purposely
staying out of contact with me.

How should I be?

Give me your fantasy.

How could I share
my concern with you?

I can't say in words.

I know the feeling
I'd see on you.

But I can't say.

It's just a feeling
like, I don't know.

It's like I want you to
respect him more as a

human being that
I've got feelings.

Now we come back
to the beginning.

So you want respect.

Yes, I do.

I do.

This is a different
kind of respect

than you meant the first time.

Never mind.

But you need respect?

Yes.

I respect you so
much as a human being

that I refuse to accept
the phony part of yourself.

And that was my [? path ?]
to the genuine part.

Right now, the last few minutes,
you were wonderfully genuine.

You weren't playing any more.

And I could see you
really were hurting.

Well, I don't feel
I've got a right.

When I don't like
somebody or I disagree

with what somebody is doing,
if I should respect them,

if they're above me,
they're superior to me,

I don't feel I've got
a right to really,

really tell you how mad I am.

That's garbage.

You're not-- you're getting
back to your safe corner.

That's the way it feels.

That's what the safe
corner feels like to me.

Now go back to your safe corner.

Because we have
to part very soon.

You stayed in your safe corner.

You came out for a moment.

You nearly [? met ?] me.

You could get a little
bit angry with me.

Now go back to your safety.

I feel like you're telling me
the only way you'll respect me

as a human being if I'm
aggressive and forceful and

strong.

I feel like you couldn't
even accept my--

I'd be scared to death
to cry in front of you.

I feel like you'd laugh
at me and call me a phony.

I feel like you don't
accept my weak side.

Only when I am yelling back
at you or hollering at you--

You mustn't cry in my presence?

Well, I wouldn't even
give you the satisfaction.

Say this again.

No.

Say this again.

I'd try not to.

I'd try not to cry
in front of you

or show you my weak spot for
fear you'd jump on me again.

Are you aware that
you're eyes are moist.

I am aware that I
feel more choky.

Yes, I feel that--

Could you choke me?

Pretend, but not for real.

Why not for real?

Well, because I don't
hate you that much.

Yes, you want to
choke my [INAUDIBLE].

You want me to choke you
so that you wouldn't cry?

I'd like to-- If I'd
like to choke you,

it would be to make you cry.

I'd like to see you weak.

I like to see you
hurt and vulnerable.

What would this do for you?

Make me feel like I have
more of a right to be hurt.

And you wouldn't
jump on me so quick.

Would you jump on
me if I would cry?

No.

But I would jump on
you if you would cry?

Are you sure of this?

No, I'm not sure of it.

What would you like me
to do if you were to cry?

I wasn't--

Ah, you are smiling
something off.

Well, because I
got two feelings.

I was going to say I want
you to love me and hug me.

But then I thought, no.

I don't want to.

What's your objection?

I'd be scared to be
too close to you.

Now we are getting somewhere.

First, you want
to be close to me.

Now you're afraid to
be too close to me.

That is what I'm saying, but--

Now we got with two
poles of your existence.

But they are two
different feelings.

Close, I mean emotionally,
but not physically.

But we've got the two poles
of your existence now.

Either far away in a
corner or be so close

that you can melt into
one with the other person.

It appears you travel
between the two extremes.

I do.

You know what I'm thinking when
I am really hurt and really

upset about something and
I want someone to love me,

like my girlfriend
will do it a lot

and she'll come out to
hug me, I don't want it.

Exactly.

That's what I'm talking about.

You cannot sustain contact.

OK, this is
[? garbage. ?] What are

you afraid of if you get too
close to your girlfriend,

if you let her hug you?

The only thing I'm aware
of is when I perspire,

it embarrasses me that
she'd feel how wet I am.

And that she'd hold
my body up close.

And I don't know.

Are you aware of your
facial expression?

There is a kind of
disgust growing.

Yes I am.

Do this more.

Icky.

Just icky.

I can just feel what it is.

I don't like it.

Can you say this to me,
Fritz, you are icky?

No.

No?

What's the difficulty?

Because I feel like if
you really believed me

that would hurt your feelings.

Oh, you musn't hurt my feelings?

I thought I was so indifferent,
as you said before, therefore,

nothing could touch me.

No.

Now you suddenly discover
a way to touch me.

Isn't it?

Well, you know what I believe?

I believe you're the type
of person, sort of like me,

that you act like it
wouldn't hurt your feelings,

but it really would.

You act strong.

But you're soft and
vulnerable inside there, too.

I think your feelings
could be hurt, sure.

But I don't think you'd
show it very easy.

What would I do?

How would I conceal my feelings?

By turning it back on me.

By saying now, what did
you get from that, Gloria?

You'd turn the whole
thing back on me

instead of showing
how hurt you were.

Now, can you say this to Fritz?

What did you get
out of this, Fritz?

Say this to me.

What did you get out of what?

What you just said,
just your sentence.

Sure, I know what
you'd get out of it.

If I said, what did you
get out of this, Fritz,

you'd say nothing.

It didn't bother me.

It was you that did it.

You still wouldn't let
me know you were hurt.

But I know what
it would be if you

told your true
feelings, that you

didn't want to show your hurt.

So you covered it up.

Same way with me in the corner.

Now if I were hurt, if I would
cry, what would you do with me?

You would be, you wouldn't
be so superior to me.

You'd be more vulnerable
and I could pacify you

and make you feel better.

You could hug me.

And I could be the baby.

Yes.

Yes, I'd like that.

You'd feel more on my level.

I wouldn't have to
feel so dumb with you.

And the other way around,
you would have to be my baby.

She would cry.

She would like to play the baby
and be comforted and heartened.

Poor thing.

Well, I'd like that, too.

Well, I'll tell you
something Gloria.

I think we came
to a nice closure.

I think we came to a little
bit of understanding.

I think we should
finish this scene now.

All right?

All right.

The demonstration
was, in my opinion,

quite successful and consistent
with my theoretical outlook.

The avoidance of the
general encounter

manifested itself in three ways.

The patient was
first taking control

by putting on a smiling,
sophisticated, phony mask

oscillating between the
pretense of being frightened

and yet at the same time
having me figured out,

thus believing to be fully
in control of the situation.

Secondly, she was
withdrawing by fantasizing

of hiding in a corner.

Fourthly, she was blocking
the real encounter

of [INAUDIBLE] which
then would have

been the real emotional
meaning of this meeting.

The patient was capable
of identifying herself

as several fantasies she
had projected onto me.

This was especially evident with
regard to her initial denial

for a need to be respected.

The need for
environmental support

started to come out besides
a need to get respected.

It was verbalized in her
wish to be cared for, rescued

from the corner, and so on.

I broke off the session when
the first tears began to appear.

She began to play the
role of the lonely child

and apparently wanted to
be hugged and comforted.

But here, too, the
assimilation of her projection

began to work.

And she began to experience
holding me like a baby.

Apart from assisting
her in assimilating

her [INAUDIBLE] projections,
the main therapeutic factor

was to show the inconsistency
of her verbal and nonverbal

behavior.

For instance, saying
that she was frightened

and smiling at the same time.

A frightened person
does not smile.

The way I feared was in the
direction of her embarrassment.

This embarrassment was protected
by her brazenness and anger.

To get to her existing
existential embarrassment,

we would have to go through
and eliminated the phoniness.

That is the [? ego ?] with
which we can superficially

assume any role that is required
for a specific situation.

This suited adaptation is
her way of coping with life.

This is about what I
got out of this session.