Psychotherapy is sometimes described
as a process of helping a person to help himself.
This film is the second in a series of three films designed
to show how this process works with three
different therapists.
First, you've seen Dr. Carl Rogers, founder of client
centered therapy at work with Gloria, our real, live patient.
Now we invite you to observe Dr. Frederick
Perls, founder of Gestalt therapy, with the same patient.
He will first describe his system of therapy
and then demonstrate his work.
Following, he will comment briefly.
Now, Dr. Frederick Perls.
I am to interview a patient.
And I'd like to give you some thumbnail sketch of what
gestalt therapy stands for.
Gestalt therapy is working on an equation, awareness,
equal present time, equal reality.
In contrast to depth psychology, we
try to get hold of the obvious, of the surface,
of the situation in which we find ourselves
and to develop the emerging gestalt strictly
on the I and thou, here and now basis.
Any escape into the future or the past
is examined as a likely resistance
against the ongoing encounter.
Modern man has alienated, given up so much of his potential
that his ability to cope with his existence
becomes badly impoverished.
My aim is this, the patient should
recover his lost potential.
He should integrate the conflicting polarities.
Understand the difference between game playing,
especially the playing of verbal games, on the one hand,
and of genuine, authentic, confident behavior
on the other.
The civil war of inner conflict weakens the efficiency
and comfort of the patient.
But every bit of integration will strengthen it.
Now, in the safe emergency of the therapeutic situation, I
repeat, in the safe emergency of the therapeutic situation,
the patient begins to take risks and to transform his energies
from manipulating the environment for support
into developing greater and greater self support that is
reliant on his own resources.
This process is called maturation.
Once the patient has learned to stand on his own feet
emotionally, intellectually, and economically,
his need for therapy will collapse.
He will wake up from the nightmare of his existence.
The basic technique is this, not to explain things
to the patient, but to provide the patient with opportunities
to understand and to discover himself.
For this purpose, I manipulate and prostrate
the patient in such a way that he is confronting himself.
In this process he identifies with his lost potential,
for instance, through assimilating his projections
by acting out, by acting out the alien parts of himself.
Principally, I consider any interpretation
to be a therapeutic mistake as this
would imply that the therapist understands the patient better
than the patient himself.
It takes away from the patient a chance of discovering himself
by himself and prevents him from finding out his own values
and style.
On the other hand, I disregard most
of the content of what the patient says
and concentrate most on the non-verbal level
as this is the only one which is less subject to self deception.
In his verbal pseudo-self expression
on the non-vocal level, the relevant gestalt
will always emerge and can be dealt with in the here and now.
We are going to have an interview for half an hour.
Right away I'm scared.
You say you're scared but you're smiling.
I do not understand how one can be scared
and smile at the same time.
And I'm also suspicious of you.
I think you understand very well.
I think you know that when I get scared,
I laugh or I kid to cover up.
Do you have stage fright?
I don't know.
I'm mostly aware of you.
I'm afraid that--
I'm afraid you're going to have such
a direct attack that you're going to get me in the corner.
And I'm afraid about it.
I want you to be more on my side.
You said I'll get you into your corner.
And you put your hand on your chest.
Is this your corner?
Well, yeah, it's like I'm afraid.
Where would you like to go?
Can you describe the corner you like to go to?
Yeah.
It's back in a corner where I'm completely protected.
There you would be safe of me, from me?
Well, I know I wouldn't really.
But it feels safer.
You made your way into this corner
and you're perfectly safe now.
What would you do in that corner?
I'd just sit.
You would just sit.
Yes.
Now, how long would you sit?
I don't know.
But this is so funny.
As you're saying this, this reminds
me of when I was a little girl.
Every time I was afraid, I'd feel better sitting
in a corner, but panicky.
OK, are you a little girl?
Well, no.
But it's the same feeling.
Are you a little girl?
This feeling reminds me of it.
Are you a little girl?
No.
No at last.
Well, what are you?
30.
Then you're not a little girl?
No.
OK.
So you are a 30 year old girl who's afraid of a guy like me?
I don't even know.
Yeah, I do know I'll be afraid of you.
I get real defensive with you.
Now, what can I do to you?
You can't do anything.
But I can sure feel dumb.
And I can feel stupid for not having the right answers.
Now, what would it do to you to feel dumb and stupid?
I hate it when I'm stupid.
What would it do for you to be dumb and stupid?
Let me put it something like this,
what would you do to me if you would play dumb and stupid?
That makes you all the smarter and all the higher above me.
And I really have to look up to you because you're so smart.
Oh, yeah, and butter me up right and left.
No, I think you can do that all by yourself.
I think the other way around.
If you play dumb and stupid, you force me to be more explicit.
That's been said to me before.
But I don't buy it.
I don't--
Now what you are doing with your feet now?
Wiggling them.
What is the joke now?
Oh, I'm afraid you're going to notice everything I do, gee.
Can't you help me?
I want you to help me become more relaxed, yes.
I don't want to be so defensive with you.
I don't like to feel so defensive.
You're acting like, you're treating me
as if I'm stronger than I am.
And I want you to protect me more and be nicer to me.
By way of your smile, you don't believe
a word of what you said.
I do too.
And I know you're going to pick on me for it.
Sure, your bluff.
You're a phony.
Do you believe-- are you meaning that seriously?
Yeah.
If you say you are afraid and you laugh
and you giggle and you squirm.
That's phony.
You're putting a performance for me.
Oh, I resent that very much.
Can you express this?
Yes sir.
I most certainly am not being phony.
I will admit this, it's hard for me to show my embarrassment.
And I hate to be embarrassed.
But boy I resent you calling me a phony.
Just because I smile when I'm embarrassed
or I'm put in a corner doesn't mean I'm being a phony.
Wonderful thank you.
You didn't squirm for the last minute.
Well I'm mad at you.
I--
That's all right.
You didn't have to cover up your anger with your smile.
Now in that moment, in that minute, you were not a phony.
Well at that minute I was mad, though.
I wasn't embarrassed.
Now, when you're mad, you're not a phony.
I still resent that.
I'm not a phony when I'm nervous.
What is this you are doing?
Again.
I want to get mad at you.
I, I, I, I.
I want you on my level so I can pick on you just as much
as you're picking on me.
OK, pick on me.
I have to wait till you say something that I can pick on.
What does this mean?
Can you develop this movement?
It's, uh, I can't find words.
I want to--
Develop this as if you were dancing.
I will start all over again with you.
OK.
Let's start all over.
I know what corner I'd like to put you in.
I'd like to ask you a question.
Because I have a feeling you don't like me
right off the bat.
And I want to know if you do.
Can you now play Fritz Perls not liking Gloria.
What would he say?
He'd say that she's a phony, for one.
Say, you are a phony.
You're a phony.
And you're a flip little girl.
And you're a show off.
What would Gloria answer to that?
I know what I'd answer.
I'd say I think you are too.
Now tell this to me.
Tell me what a phony I am.
No, I'm--
Say, Fritz you're a phony.
Well, phony is not quite the right word.
But it's more like a show off.
A show off?
Like you know all the answers.
And I want you to be more human.
And that doesn't seem very human to me.
To know all the answers is not really human?
Yeah to right away find out why I'm kicking my feet.
And why am I doing like this?
Why are you doing like that?
Oh dear, I've got eyes.
I can see you're kicking your feet.
I don't need a scientific computer
to see that you are kicking your feet.
What's big about that?
You don't need to be wise to see that you kick your feet.
I know.
But it seems like you're trying to find some reason for it.
I don't.
This is your imagination.
OK.
I know what I'd like from you.
Can I tell you what I'd like from you?
I'd like you to be aware that I'm kicking my feet
and to be aware that I'm giggling when
I'm really nervous and accept it instead of putting me
on the defensive having to explain it.
I don't want to have to explain why I'm doing these things.
Did I ask you to explain them?
You said, why am I?
Or what am I doing?
No.
What am I doing, you said.
That's right, kicking your feet.
I didn't ask you to explain.
This is your imagination.
That not this Fritz.
It's the Fritz of your imagination.
There's a big difference.
Now do this again.
Again.
How do you feel now?
I don't know.
Playing stupid?
I'm not playing stupid?
You see, I don't know this is playing stupid.
You did something with your hair there.
Is there by any chance something in my hair that you object to?
No.
No?
OK.
No, but your hair and your features
go along with the feeling I had about you earlier.
I had a feeling I could be afraid of you.
And you're the type of person that
seems like you demand so much respect.
And so your--
Please play Fritz.
I demand so much respect.
Play this Fritz you just saw.
Well, you know how smart I am.
I know more about psychology than you do, Gloria.
So anything I say, of course, is right.
Can you say the same as Gloria, something similar as Gloria
with the same act as Gloria?
I demand respect because?
I don't know.
You don't know?
No, I don't.
I identify it with my father.
But not me.
I don't feel I demand respect.
You do demand respect.
No.
Sure you do.
As a matter of fact, I'd like more.
I'd like you respect me more.
Now, you see?
So you demand respect.
All right, yes.
Yes, as a matter of fact, if I could demand respect from you,
I would.
Do it.
Who's preventing you, except yourself.
Because I feel if I get myself out on the corner,
you're going to let me just drown.
You're not going to help me one bit.
And I know that I can't quite come up to standards with you.
What should I do when you are in the corner?
Encourage me to come out.
Oh.
You don't have enough courage to come by yourself?
You need somebody pull little damsel
in distress out of her corner?
Yes.
So any time you want somebody to pay attention to you,
you crawl into a corner and wait until the rescuer comes.
Yes that's exactly what I'd like.
And this is what I call phony.
Pardon me?
This is what I call phony.
Why is it phony?
I'm admitting to you what I am.
How is that a phony?
That is a phony.
Oh?
Because it's a trick.
It's a gimmick, to crawl into a corner
and wait there until somebody comes to your rescue.
I'm admitting it.
I know what I'm doing.
I'm not being phony.
I'm not pretending I'm so brave.
I resent that.
I feel like you're saying unless I come out openly and stand
on my own I'm not a phony.
Baloney!
I'm just as real sitting in that corner
as I am out here all by myself.
But you're not sitting in that corner.
Well, I'm not now.
And besides that, it's like passing judgment
when you call me phony.
I just hate that anyway.
Now we are getting somewhere.
I call anybody phony who puts on an act.
And if you like somebody, you want to meet this person,
to go to this person, tell them I would like to meet you,
I would call not phony.
But if you coyishly go into that corner waiting to be rescued,
this I call phony.
I still think you're judgemental.
You know what I have a feeling, you've never
felt this way in your life.
You feel so secure that you don't have to feel.
Anybody that does something like this,
you are going pass judgment on their being a phony.
Well I resent it.
Good.
Now play Fritz passing judgment.
You are you sitting up there in your chair.
Play Fritz.
I am Fritz.
I pass judgment.
Pass judgment on me now.
I don't feel close to you at all Dr. Perls.
I feel that's phony.
I feel like you're playing one big game.
Right.
Sure we play games.
But in spite of the games, I think
I've touched you now and then.
I think I hurt you when I called you a phony.
Well, of course you did.
And I think I hit a bullseye.
That's why you feel hurt.
I don't know.
All I know is when I feel the way I feel with you right now,
it's like you don't have feeling.
Right.
Now exaggerate this.
What you just did.
That's it.
Now talk to me like this.
I can't.
I want to laugh.
I'd like you to be younger than me so I could really scold you.
How old must I be?
My age, 30.
Good, I'm 30 now.
Imagine I'm 30.
And now, you scold me.
OK.
Don't be so cocksure of yourself.
Don't think you're so doggone smart.
Don't act so proud because you've never
been in the corner.
I think you can be just as big a phony parading around
like you're so damn smart.
And you know all the answers as much
as me sitting in my corner.
Oh, and I like the feeling of you being younger.
I'd like to really embarrass you.
Embarrass me.
Tell me what--
Well, you wouldn't get embarrassed.
You seem to unaffected.
Tell me, embarrass me.
Tell me how odd, how ugly I am.
You don't look old and ugly.
You looked distinguished.
And that gives you, that's all the more on your side,
if you look so distinguished then, see.
That's more on your side, too.
Well, Gloria can we say this one thing.
We had quite a good fight.
No.
I don't think you're fighting with me.
But I felt you came out quite a bit.
Well I'm mad at you.
Wonderful.
But you seem so detached.
You don't even seem to care that I'm mad at you.
I feel like you're not recognizing me at all Dr. Perls
not a bit.
This is quite true.
Our contact is much too superficial
to be involved in caring.
I care for you as far as you are right now my client.
I care for you as far as like an artist, bring something out
which is hidden in you.
This is as far as I care.
Well, I'd like you to--
I'd like to feel that there's some-- it's frustrating.
If I were to leave you right now and not see you again,
it would frustrate me to feel like there
hadn't been more contact.
I feel completely out of contact with you,
like I'm talking to the baby that doesn't understand me
or something like that.
I don't feel like we're a bit in contact.
And oh, that frustrates me.
That bothers me more than being angry with you.
I'd rather we were angry and fought than to have no contact.
Yeah, this reminds me of when my husband and I used to fight.
He sits there and he listens to me.
But he's not even aware of how much I hate him
and how mad I am at him.
I'd rather affect you.
You don't really hate me or something.
And I feel like you're purposely staying out of contact with me.
How should I be?
Give me your fantasy.
How could I share my concern with you?
I can't say in words.
I know the feeling I'd see on you.
But I can't say.
It's just a feeling like, I don't know.
It's like I want you to respect him more as a
human being that I've got feelings.
Now we come back to the beginning.
So you want respect.
Yes, I do.
I do.
This is a different kind of respect
than you meant the first time.
Never mind.
But you need respect?
Yes.
I respect you so much as a human being
that I refuse to accept the phony part of yourself.
And that was my [? path ?] to the genuine part.
Right now, the last few minutes, you were wonderfully genuine.
You weren't playing any more.
And I could see you really were hurting.
Well, I don't feel I've got a right.
When I don't like somebody or I disagree
with what somebody is doing, if I should respect them,
if they're above me, they're superior to me,
I don't feel I've got a right to really,
really tell you how mad I am.
That's garbage.
You're not-- you're getting back to your safe corner.
That's the way it feels.
That's what the safe corner feels like to me.
Now go back to your safe corner.
Because we have to part very soon.
You stayed in your safe corner.
You came out for a moment.
You nearly [? met ?] me.
You could get a little bit angry with me.
Now go back to your safety.
I feel like you're telling me the only way you'll respect me
as a human being if I'm aggressive and forceful and
strong.
I feel like you couldn't even accept my--
I'd be scared to death to cry in front of you.
I feel like you'd laugh at me and call me a phony.
I feel like you don't accept my weak side.
Only when I am yelling back at you or hollering at you--
You mustn't cry in my presence?
Well, I wouldn't even give you the satisfaction.
Say this again.
No.
Say this again.
I'd try not to.
I'd try not to cry in front of you
or show you my weak spot for fear you'd jump on me again.
Are you aware that you're eyes are moist.
I am aware that I feel more choky.
Yes, I feel that--
Could you choke me?
Pretend, but not for real.
Why not for real?
Well, because I don't hate you that much.
Yes, you want to choke my [INAUDIBLE].
You want me to choke you so that you wouldn't cry?
I'd like to-- If I'd like to choke you,
it would be to make you cry.
I'd like to see you weak.
I like to see you hurt and vulnerable.
What would this do for you?
Make me feel like I have more of a right to be hurt.
And you wouldn't jump on me so quick.
Would you jump on me if I would cry?
No.
But I would jump on you if you would cry?
Are you sure of this?
No, I'm not sure of it.
What would you like me to do if you were to cry?
I wasn't--
Ah, you are smiling something off.
Well, because I got two feelings.
I was going to say I want you to love me and hug me.
But then I thought, no.
I don't want to.
What's your objection?
I'd be scared to be too close to you.
Now we are getting somewhere.
First, you want to be close to me.
Now you're afraid to be too close to me.
That is what I'm saying, but--
Now we got with two poles of your existence.
But they are two different feelings.
Close, I mean emotionally, but not physically.
But we've got the two poles of your existence now.
Either far away in a corner or be so close
that you can melt into one with the other person.
It appears you travel between the two extremes.
I do.
You know what I'm thinking when I am really hurt and really
upset about something and I want someone to love me,
like my girlfriend will do it a lot
and she'll come out to hug me, I don't want it.
Exactly.
That's what I'm talking about.
You cannot sustain contact.
OK, this is [? garbage. ?] What are
you afraid of if you get too close to your girlfriend,
if you let her hug you?
The only thing I'm aware of is when I perspire,
it embarrasses me that she'd feel how wet I am.
And that she'd hold my body up close.
And I don't know.
Are you aware of your facial expression?
There is a kind of disgust growing.
Yes I am.
Do this more.
Icky.
Just icky.
I can just feel what it is.
I don't like it.
Can you say this to me, Fritz, you are icky?
No.
No?
What's the difficulty?
Because I feel like if you really believed me
that would hurt your feelings.
Oh, you musn't hurt my feelings?
I thought I was so indifferent, as you said before, therefore,
nothing could touch me.
No.
Now you suddenly discover a way to touch me.
Isn't it?
Well, you know what I believe?
I believe you're the type of person, sort of like me,
that you act like it wouldn't hurt your feelings,
but it really would.
You act strong.
But you're soft and vulnerable inside there, too.
I think your feelings could be hurt, sure.
But I don't think you'd show it very easy.
What would I do?
How would I conceal my feelings?
By turning it back on me.
By saying now, what did you get from that, Gloria?
You'd turn the whole thing back on me
instead of showing how hurt you were.
Now, can you say this to Fritz?
What did you get out of this, Fritz?
Say this to me.
What did you get out of what?
What you just said, just your sentence.
Sure, I know what you'd get out of it.
If I said, what did you get out of this, Fritz,
you'd say nothing.
It didn't bother me.
It was you that did it.
You still wouldn't let me know you were hurt.
But I know what it would be if you
told your true feelings, that you
didn't want to show your hurt.
So you covered it up.
Same way with me in the corner.
Now if I were hurt, if I would cry, what would you do with me?
You would be, you wouldn't be so superior to me.
You'd be more vulnerable and I could pacify you
and make you feel better.
You could hug me.
And I could be the baby.
Yes.
Yes, I'd like that.
You'd feel more on my level.
I wouldn't have to feel so dumb with you.
And the other way around, you would have to be my baby.
She would cry.
She would like to play the baby and be comforted and heartened.
Poor thing.
Well, I'd like that, too.
Well, I'll tell you something Gloria.
I think we came to a nice closure.
I think we came to a little bit of understanding.
I think we should finish this scene now.
All right?
All right.
The demonstration was, in my opinion,
quite successful and consistent with my theoretical outlook.
The avoidance of the general encounter
manifested itself in three ways.
The patient was first taking control
by putting on a smiling, sophisticated, phony mask
oscillating between the pretense of being frightened
and yet at the same time having me figured out,
thus believing to be fully in control of the situation.
Secondly, she was withdrawing by fantasizing
of hiding in a corner.
Fourthly, she was blocking the real encounter
of [INAUDIBLE] which then would have
been the real emotional meaning of this meeting.
The patient was capable of identifying herself
as several fantasies she had projected onto me.
This was especially evident with regard to her initial denial
for a need to be respected.
The need for environmental support
started to come out besides a need to get respected.
It was verbalized in her wish to be cared for, rescued
from the corner, and so on.
I broke off the session when the first tears began to appear.
She began to play the role of the lonely child
and apparently wanted to be hugged and comforted.
But here, too, the assimilation of her projection
began to work.
And she began to experience holding me like a baby.
Apart from assisting her in assimilating
her [INAUDIBLE] projections, the main therapeutic factor
was to show the inconsistency of her verbal and nonverbal
behavior.
For instance, saying that she was frightened
and smiling at the same time.
A frightened person does not smile.
The way I feared was in the direction of her embarrassment.
This embarrassment was protected by her brazenness and anger.
To get to her existing existential embarrassment,
we would have to go through and eliminated the phoniness.
That is the [? ego ?] with which we can superficially
assume any role that is required for a specific situation.
This suited adaptation is her way of coping with life.
This is about what I got out of this session.