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Psychotherapy is
sometimes described

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as a process of helping
a person to help himself.

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This film is the second in a
series of three films designed

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to show how this
process works with three

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different therapists.

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First, you've seen Dr. Carl
Rogers, founder of client

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centered therapy at work with
Gloria, our real, live patient.

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Now we invite you to
observe Dr. Frederick

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Perls, founder of Gestalt
therapy, with the same patient.

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He will first describe
his system of therapy

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and then demonstrate his work.

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Following, he will
comment briefly.

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Now, Dr. Frederick Perls.

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I am to interview a patient.

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And I'd like to give you
some thumbnail sketch of what

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gestalt therapy stands for.

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Gestalt therapy is working
on an equation, awareness,

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equal present time,
equal reality.

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In contrast to
depth psychology, we

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try to get hold of the
obvious, of the surface,

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of the situation in
which we find ourselves

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and to develop the
emerging gestalt strictly

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on the I and thou,
here and now basis.

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Any escape into the
future or the past

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is examined as a
likely resistance

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against the ongoing encounter.

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Modern man has alienated, given
up so much of his potential

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that his ability to
cope with his existence

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becomes badly impoverished.

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My aim is this,
the patient should

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recover his lost potential.

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He should integrate the
conflicting polarities.

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Understand the difference
between game playing,

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especially the playing of
verbal games, on the one hand,

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and of genuine, authentic,
confident behavior

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on the other.

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The civil war of inner
conflict weakens the efficiency

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and comfort of the patient.

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But every bit of integration
will strengthen it.

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Now, in the safe emergency of
the therapeutic situation, I

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repeat, in the safe emergency
of the therapeutic situation,

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the patient begins to take risks
and to transform his energies

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from manipulating the
environment for support

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into developing greater and
greater self support that is

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reliant on his own resources.

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This process is
called maturation.

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Once the patient has learned
to stand on his own feet

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emotionally, intellectually,
and economically,

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his need for therapy
will collapse.

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He will wake up from the
nightmare of his existence.

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The basic technique is
this, not to explain things

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to the patient, but to provide
the patient with opportunities

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to understand and
to discover himself.

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For this purpose, I
manipulate and prostrate

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the patient in such a way that
he is confronting himself.

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In this process he identifies
with his lost potential,

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for instance, through
assimilating his projections

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by acting out, by acting out
the alien parts of himself.

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Principally, I consider
any interpretation

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to be a therapeutic
mistake as this

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would imply that the therapist
understands the patient better

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than the patient himself.

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It takes away from the patient
a chance of discovering himself

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by himself and prevents him
from finding out his own values

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and style.

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On the other hand,
I disregard most

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of the content of
what the patient says

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and concentrate most
on the non-verbal level

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as this is the only one which is
less subject to self deception.

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In his verbal
pseudo-self expression

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on the non-vocal level,
the relevant gestalt

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will always emerge and can be
dealt with in the here and now.

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We are going to have an
interview for half an hour.

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Right away I'm scared.

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You say you're scared
but you're smiling.

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I do not understand
how one can be scared

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and smile at the same time.

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And I'm also suspicious of you.

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I think you
understand very well.

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I think you know that
when I get scared,

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I laugh or I kid to cover up.

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Do you have stage fright?

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I don't know.

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I'm mostly aware of you.

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I'm afraid that--

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I'm afraid you're
going to have such

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a direct attack that you're
going to get me in the corner.

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And I'm afraid about it.

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I want you to be
more on my side.

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You said I'll get
you into your corner.

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And you put your
hand on your chest.

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Is this your corner?

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Well, yeah, it's
like I'm afraid.

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Where would you like to go?

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Can you describe the
corner you like to go to?

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Yeah.

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It's back in a corner where
I'm completely protected.

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There you would be
safe of me, from me?

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Well, I know I wouldn't really.

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But it feels safer.

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You made your way
into this corner

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and you're perfectly safe now.

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What would you do
in that corner?

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I'd just sit.

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You would just sit.

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Yes.

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Now, how long would you sit?

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I don't know.

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But this is so funny.

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As you're saying
this, this reminds

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me of when I was a little girl.

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Every time I was afraid,
I'd feel better sitting

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in a corner, but panicky.

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OK, are you a little girl?

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Well, no.

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But it's the same feeling.

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Are you a little girl?

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This feeling reminds me of it.

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Are you a little girl?

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No.

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No.

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No.

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No at last.

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Well, what are you?

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30.

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Then you're not a little girl?

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No.

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OK.

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So you are a 30 year old girl
who's afraid of a guy like me?

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I don't even know.

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Yeah, I do know I'll
be afraid of you.

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I get real defensive with you.

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Now, what can I do to you?

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You can't do anything.

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But I can sure feel dumb.

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And I can feel stupid for
not having the right answers.

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Now, what would it do to
you to feel dumb and stupid?

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I hate it when I'm stupid.

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What would it do for you
to be dumb and stupid?

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Let me put it
something like this,

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what would you do to me if you
would play dumb and stupid?

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That makes you all the smarter
and all the higher above me.

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And I really have to look up
to you because you're so smart.

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Oh, yeah, and butter
me up right and left.

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No, I think you can do
that all by yourself.

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I think the other way around.

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If you play dumb and stupid, you
force me to be more explicit.

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That's been said to me before.

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But I don't buy it.

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I don't--

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Now what you are doing
with your feet now?

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Wiggling them.

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What is the joke now?

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Oh, I'm afraid you're going to
notice everything I do, gee.

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Can't you help me?

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I want you to help me
become more relaxed, yes.

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I don't want to be so
defensive with you.

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I don't like to
feel so defensive.

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You're acting like,
you're treating me

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as if I'm stronger than I am.

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And I want you to protect
me more and be nicer to me.

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By way of your smile,
you don't believe

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a word of what you said.

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I do too.

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And I know you're going
to pick on me for it.

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Sure, your bluff.

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You're a phony.

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Do you believe-- are you
meaning that seriously?

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Yeah.

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If you say you are
afraid and you laugh

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and you giggle and you squirm.

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That's phony.

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You're putting a
performance for me.

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Oh, I resent that very much.

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Can you express this?

187
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Yes sir.

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I most certainly
am not being phony.

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I will admit this, it's hard
for me to show my embarrassment.

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And I hate to be embarrassed.

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But boy I resent you
calling me a phony.

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Just because I smile
when I'm embarrassed

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or I'm put in a corner doesn't
mean I'm being a phony.

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Wonderful thank you.

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You didn't squirm
for the last minute.

196
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Well I'm mad at you.

197
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I--

198
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That's all right.

199
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You didn't have to cover up
your anger with your smile.

200
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201
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Now in that moment, in that
minute, you were not a phony.

202
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Well at that minute
I was mad, though.

203
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I wasn't embarrassed.

204
00:10:17,985 --> 00:10:19,980
Now, when you're mad,
you're not a phony.

205
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206
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I still resent that.

207
00:10:23,830 --> 00:10:25,210
I'm not a phony
when I'm nervous.

208
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What is this you are doing?

209
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Again.

210
00:10:26,500 --> 00:10:29,390
I want to get mad at you.

211
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I, I, I, I.

212
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I want you on my level so I
can pick on you just as much

213
00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:36,360
as you're picking on me.

214
00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:37,661
OK, pick on me.

215
00:10:37,661 --> 00:10:43,560


216
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I have to wait till you say
something that I can pick on.

217
00:10:46,997 --> 00:10:47,830
What does this mean?

218
00:10:47,830 --> 00:10:50,376
Can you develop this movement?

219
00:10:50,376 --> 00:10:52,710
It's, uh, I can't find words.

220
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I want to--

221
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Develop this as if
you were dancing.

222
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223
00:11:01,820 --> 00:11:03,381
I will start all
over again with you.

224
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OK.

225
00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:05,160
Let's start all over.

226
00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:06,930
I know what corner I'd
like to put you in.

227
00:11:06,930 --> 00:11:08,691
I'd like to ask you a question.

228
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Because I have a feeling
you don't like me

229
00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:11,230
right off the bat.

230
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And I want to know if you do.

231
00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:17,270
Can you now play Fritz
Perls not liking Gloria.

232
00:11:17,270 --> 00:11:20,010
What would he say?

233
00:11:20,010 --> 00:11:22,940
He'd say that she's
a phony, for one.

234
00:11:22,940 --> 00:11:24,480
Say, you are a phony.

235
00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:26,000
You're a phony.

236
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And you're a flip little girl.

237
00:11:28,860 --> 00:11:31,980
And you're a show off.

238
00:11:31,980 --> 00:11:33,629
What would Gloria
answer to that?

239
00:11:33,629 --> 00:11:36,443


240
00:11:36,443 --> 00:11:38,420
I know what I'd answer.

241
00:11:38,420 --> 00:11:40,670
I'd say I think you are too.

242
00:11:40,670 --> 00:11:42,460
Now tell this to me.

243
00:11:42,460 --> 00:11:44,800
Tell me what a phony I am.

244
00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:45,610
No, I'm--

245
00:11:45,610 --> 00:11:49,250


246
00:11:49,250 --> 00:11:52,490
Say, Fritz you're a phony.

247
00:11:52,490 --> 00:11:54,980
Well, phony is not
quite the right word.

248
00:11:54,980 --> 00:11:57,630
But it's more like a show off.

249
00:11:57,630 --> 00:11:58,390
A show off?

250
00:11:58,390 --> 00:12:01,630
Like you know all the answers.

251
00:12:01,630 --> 00:12:03,390
And I want you to be more human.

252
00:12:03,390 --> 00:12:05,520
And that doesn't seem
very human to me.

253
00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:07,990
To know all the answers
is not really human?

254
00:12:07,990 --> 00:12:10,410
Yeah to right away find out
why I'm kicking my feet.

255
00:12:10,410 --> 00:12:12,010
And why am I doing like this?

256
00:12:12,010 --> 00:12:13,560
Why are you doing like that?

257
00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:15,080
Oh dear, I've got eyes.

258
00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,260
I can see you're
kicking your feet.

259
00:12:17,260 --> 00:12:19,680
I don't need a
scientific computer

260
00:12:19,680 --> 00:12:22,095
to see that you are
kicking your feet.

261
00:12:22,095 --> 00:12:24,716
What's big about that?

262
00:12:24,716 --> 00:12:28,310
You don't need to be wise to
see that you kick your feet.

263
00:12:28,310 --> 00:12:28,860
I know.

264
00:12:28,860 --> 00:12:31,960
But it seems like you're trying
to find some reason for it.

265
00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:33,881
I don't.

266
00:12:33,881 --> 00:12:35,740
This is your imagination.

267
00:12:35,740 --> 00:12:36,421
OK.

268
00:12:36,421 --> 00:12:37,670
I know what I'd like from you.

269
00:12:37,670 --> 00:12:39,590
Can I tell you what
I'd like from you?

270
00:12:39,590 --> 00:12:42,250
I'd like you to be aware
that I'm kicking my feet

271
00:12:42,250 --> 00:12:43,930
and to be aware that
I'm giggling when

272
00:12:43,930 --> 00:12:46,180
I'm really nervous and accept
it instead of putting me

273
00:12:46,180 --> 00:12:48,730
on the defensive
having to explain it.

274
00:12:48,730 --> 00:12:51,640
I don't want to have to explain
why I'm doing these things.

275
00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:53,170
Did I ask you to explain them?

276
00:12:53,170 --> 00:12:54,250
You said, why am I?

277
00:12:54,250 --> 00:12:55,230
Or what am I doing?

278
00:12:55,230 --> 00:12:56,237
No.

279
00:12:56,237 --> 00:12:57,320
What am I doing, you said.

280
00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:58,720
That's right, kicking your feet.

281
00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,820
I didn't ask you to explain.

282
00:13:01,820 --> 00:13:04,640
This is your imagination.

283
00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:05,490
That not this Fritz.

284
00:13:05,490 --> 00:13:07,990
It's the Fritz of
your imagination.

285
00:13:07,990 --> 00:13:09,970
There's a big difference.

286
00:13:09,970 --> 00:13:15,420


287
00:13:15,420 --> 00:13:18,424
Now do this again.

288
00:13:18,424 --> 00:13:20,516
Again.

289
00:13:20,516 --> 00:13:21,802
How do you feel now?

290
00:13:21,802 --> 00:13:25,658


291
00:13:25,658 --> 00:13:28,080
I don't know.

292
00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:30,210
Playing stupid?

293
00:13:30,210 --> 00:13:32,070
I'm not playing stupid?

294
00:13:32,070 --> 00:13:34,680
You see, I don't know
this is playing stupid.

295
00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:48,750


296
00:13:48,750 --> 00:13:51,050
You did something
with your hair there.

297
00:13:51,050 --> 00:13:53,820
Is there by any chance something
in my hair that you object to?

298
00:13:53,820 --> 00:13:54,780
No.

299
00:13:54,780 --> 00:13:56,680
No?

300
00:13:56,680 --> 00:13:57,180
OK.

301
00:13:57,180 --> 00:14:00,070


302
00:14:00,070 --> 00:14:04,000
No, but your hair
and your features

303
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,820
go along with the feeling
I had about you earlier.

304
00:14:06,820 --> 00:14:09,724
I had a feeling I
could be afraid of you.

305
00:14:09,724 --> 00:14:11,140
And you're the
type of person that

306
00:14:11,140 --> 00:14:13,210
seems like you demand
so much respect.

307
00:14:13,210 --> 00:14:16,280
And so your--

308
00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:17,410
Please play Fritz.

309
00:14:17,410 --> 00:14:19,290
I demand so much respect.

310
00:14:19,290 --> 00:14:21,182
Play this Fritz you just saw.

311
00:14:21,182 --> 00:14:24,280


312
00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,170
Well, you know how smart I am.

313
00:14:26,170 --> 00:14:29,140
I know more about psychology
than you do, Gloria.

314
00:14:29,140 --> 00:14:32,040
So anything I say,
of course, is right.

315
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:37,230
Can you say the same as Gloria,
something similar as Gloria

316
00:14:37,230 --> 00:14:41,190
with the same act as Gloria?

317
00:14:41,190 --> 00:14:42,595
I demand respect because?

318
00:14:42,595 --> 00:14:45,634


319
00:14:45,634 --> 00:14:48,390
I don't know.

320
00:14:48,390 --> 00:14:49,100
You don't know?

321
00:14:49,100 --> 00:14:49,870
No, I don't.

322
00:14:49,870 --> 00:14:51,160
I identify it with my father.

323
00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:51,810
But not me.

324
00:14:51,810 --> 00:14:53,656
I don't feel I demand respect.

325
00:14:53,656 --> 00:14:55,110
You do demand respect.

326
00:14:55,110 --> 00:14:55,610
No.

327
00:14:55,610 --> 00:14:57,110
Sure you do.

328
00:14:57,110 --> 00:14:58,900
As a matter of
fact, I'd like more.

329
00:14:58,900 --> 00:15:00,640
I'd like you respect me more.

330
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:01,300
Now, you see?

331
00:15:01,300 --> 00:15:03,740
So you demand respect.

332
00:15:03,740 --> 00:15:06,460
All right, yes.

333
00:15:06,460 --> 00:15:09,040
Yes, as a matter of fact, if I
could demand respect from you,

334
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:10,170
I would.

335
00:15:10,170 --> 00:15:10,670
Do it.

336
00:15:10,670 --> 00:15:14,470


337
00:15:14,470 --> 00:15:16,630
Who's preventing
you, except yourself.

338
00:15:16,630 --> 00:15:20,969


339
00:15:20,969 --> 00:15:23,010
Because I feel if I get
myself out on the corner,

340
00:15:23,010 --> 00:15:25,280
you're going to
let me just drown.

341
00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:26,780
You're not going
to help me one bit.

342
00:15:26,780 --> 00:15:30,002
And I know that I can't quite
come up to standards with you.

343
00:15:30,002 --> 00:15:31,835
What should I do when
you are in the corner?

344
00:15:31,835 --> 00:15:35,300


345
00:15:35,300 --> 00:15:37,490
Encourage me to come out.

346
00:15:37,490 --> 00:15:39,320
Oh.

347
00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:43,910
You don't have enough
courage to come by yourself?

348
00:15:43,910 --> 00:15:46,650
You need somebody
pull little damsel

349
00:15:46,650 --> 00:15:48,810
in distress out of her corner?

350
00:15:48,810 --> 00:15:49,310
Yes.

351
00:15:49,310 --> 00:15:53,840
So any time you want somebody
to pay attention to you,

352
00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:57,710
you crawl into a corner and
wait until the rescuer comes.

353
00:15:57,710 --> 00:15:59,360
Yes that's exactly
what I'd like.

354
00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,622
And this is what I call phony.

355
00:16:01,622 --> 00:16:02,600
Pardon me?

356
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:04,430
This is what I call phony.

357
00:16:04,430 --> 00:16:05,390
Why is it phony?

358
00:16:05,390 --> 00:16:06,860
I'm admitting to you what I am.

359
00:16:06,860 --> 00:16:07,990
How is that a phony?

360
00:16:07,990 --> 00:16:09,380
That is a phony.

361
00:16:09,380 --> 00:16:10,070
Oh?

362
00:16:10,070 --> 00:16:11,100
Because it's a trick.

363
00:16:11,100 --> 00:16:13,100
It's a gimmick, to
crawl into a corner

364
00:16:13,100 --> 00:16:15,730
and wait there until somebody
comes to your rescue.

365
00:16:15,730 --> 00:16:16,550
I'm admitting it.

366
00:16:16,550 --> 00:16:18,417
I know what I'm doing.

367
00:16:18,417 --> 00:16:19,250
I'm not being phony.

368
00:16:19,250 --> 00:16:22,620
I'm not pretending I'm so brave.

369
00:16:22,620 --> 00:16:23,640
I resent that.

370
00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,080
I feel like you're saying unless
I come out openly and stand

371
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:28,490
on my own I'm not a phony.

372
00:16:28,490 --> 00:16:29,140
Baloney!

373
00:16:29,140 --> 00:16:31,910
I'm just as real
sitting in that corner

374
00:16:31,910 --> 00:16:33,590
as I am out here all by myself.

375
00:16:33,590 --> 00:16:35,566
But you're not sitting
in that corner.

376
00:16:35,566 --> 00:16:36,315
Well, I'm not now.

377
00:16:36,315 --> 00:16:44,037


378
00:16:44,037 --> 00:16:45,870
And besides that, it's
like passing judgment

379
00:16:45,870 --> 00:16:46,828
when you call me phony.

380
00:16:46,828 --> 00:16:48,410
I just hate that anyway.

381
00:16:48,410 --> 00:16:51,066
Now we are getting somewhere.

382
00:16:51,066 --> 00:16:57,050
I call anybody phony
who puts on an act.

383
00:16:57,050 --> 00:17:01,580
And if you like somebody,
you want to meet this person,

384
00:17:01,580 --> 00:17:05,520
to go to this person, tell
them I would like to meet you,

385
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,618
I would call not phony.

386
00:17:07,618 --> 00:17:13,460
But if you coyishly go into that
corner waiting to be rescued,

387
00:17:13,460 --> 00:17:15,450
this I call phony.

388
00:17:15,450 --> 00:17:18,026
I still think
you're judgemental.

389
00:17:18,026 --> 00:17:19,858
You know what I have a
feeling, you've never

390
00:17:19,858 --> 00:17:21,000
felt this way in your life.

391
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,196
You feel so secure that
you don't have to feel.

392
00:17:23,196 --> 00:17:24,780
Anybody that does
something like this,

393
00:17:24,780 --> 00:17:27,118
you are going pass judgment
on their being a phony.

394
00:17:27,118 --> 00:17:28,069
Well I resent it.

395
00:17:28,069 --> 00:17:28,610
Good.

396
00:17:28,610 --> 00:17:30,780
Now play Fritz passing judgment.

397
00:17:30,780 --> 00:17:33,110
You are you sitting up
there in your chair.

398
00:17:33,110 --> 00:17:33,610
Play Fritz.

399
00:17:33,610 --> 00:17:34,410
I am Fritz.

400
00:17:34,410 --> 00:17:35,230
I pass judgment.

401
00:17:35,230 --> 00:17:39,440


402
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,520
Pass judgment on me now.

403
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,330
I don't feel close to
you at all Dr. Perls.

404
00:17:47,330 --> 00:17:48,260
I feel that's phony.

405
00:17:48,260 --> 00:17:50,660
I feel like you're
playing one big game.

406
00:17:50,660 --> 00:17:52,420
Right.

407
00:17:52,420 --> 00:17:53,950
Sure we play games.

408
00:17:53,950 --> 00:17:56,490
But in spite of
the games, I think

409
00:17:56,490 --> 00:17:59,190
I've touched you now and then.

410
00:17:59,190 --> 00:18:01,150
I think I hurt you when
I called you a phony.

411
00:18:01,150 --> 00:18:02,705
Well, of course you did.

412
00:18:02,705 --> 00:18:05,130
And I think I hit a bullseye.

413
00:18:05,130 --> 00:18:06,562
That's why you feel hurt.

414
00:18:06,562 --> 00:18:10,530


415
00:18:10,530 --> 00:18:11,140
I don't know.

416
00:18:11,140 --> 00:18:15,230
All I know is when I feel the
way I feel with you right now,

417
00:18:15,230 --> 00:18:16,850
it's like you
don't have feeling.

418
00:18:16,850 --> 00:18:17,350
Right.

419
00:18:17,350 --> 00:18:19,452
Now exaggerate this.

420
00:18:19,452 --> 00:18:21,690
What you just did.

421
00:18:21,690 --> 00:18:22,900
That's it.

422
00:18:22,900 --> 00:18:24,220
Now talk to me like this.

423
00:18:24,220 --> 00:18:24,941
I can't.

424
00:18:24,941 --> 00:18:25,440
I can't.

425
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:26,740
I want to laugh.

426
00:18:26,740 --> 00:18:29,560
I'd like you to be younger than
me so I could really scold you.

427
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,040
How old must I be?

428
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:33,330
My age, 30.

429
00:18:33,330 --> 00:18:34,740
Good, I'm 30 now.

430
00:18:34,740 --> 00:18:36,134
Imagine I'm 30.

431
00:18:36,134 --> 00:18:37,050
And now, you scold me.

432
00:18:37,050 --> 00:18:37,740
OK.

433
00:18:37,740 --> 00:18:39,960
Don't be so cocksure
of yourself.

434
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,060
Don't think you're
so doggone smart.

435
00:18:42,060 --> 00:18:43,789
Don't act so proud
because you've never

436
00:18:43,789 --> 00:18:44,580
been in the corner.

437
00:18:44,580 --> 00:18:47,250
I think you can be just as
big a phony parading around

438
00:18:47,250 --> 00:18:48,660
like you're so damn smart.

439
00:18:48,660 --> 00:18:50,460
And you know all
the answers as much

440
00:18:50,460 --> 00:18:52,980
as me sitting in my corner.

441
00:18:52,980 --> 00:18:55,250
Oh, and I like the feeling
of you being younger.

442
00:18:55,250 --> 00:18:58,150
I'd like to really
embarrass you.

443
00:18:58,150 --> 00:18:59,370
Embarrass me.

444
00:18:59,370 --> 00:19:00,010
Tell me what--

445
00:19:00,010 --> 00:19:01,468
Well, you wouldn't
get embarrassed.

446
00:19:01,468 --> 00:19:02,873
You seem to unaffected.

447
00:19:02,873 --> 00:19:05,340
Tell me, embarrass me.

448
00:19:05,340 --> 00:19:08,990
Tell me how odd, how ugly I am.

449
00:19:08,990 --> 00:19:10,590
You don't look old and ugly.

450
00:19:10,590 --> 00:19:11,772
You looked distinguished.

451
00:19:11,772 --> 00:19:13,980
And that gives you, that's
all the more on your side,

452
00:19:13,980 --> 00:19:16,790
if you look so
distinguished then, see.

453
00:19:16,790 --> 00:19:18,670
That's more on your side, too.

454
00:19:18,670 --> 00:19:20,970
Well, Gloria can we
say this one thing.

455
00:19:20,970 --> 00:19:23,230
We had quite a good fight.

456
00:19:23,230 --> 00:19:23,810
No.

457
00:19:23,810 --> 00:19:24,970
No.

458
00:19:24,970 --> 00:19:26,760
No.

459
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:28,630
I don't think you're
fighting with me.

460
00:19:28,630 --> 00:19:32,550
But I felt you came
out quite a bit.

461
00:19:32,550 --> 00:19:34,230
Well I'm mad at you.

462
00:19:34,230 --> 00:19:36,240
Wonderful.

463
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:37,770
But you seem so detached.

464
00:19:37,770 --> 00:19:42,290
You don't even seem to
care that I'm mad at you.

465
00:19:42,290 --> 00:19:45,210
I feel like you're not
recognizing me at all Dr. Perls

466
00:19:45,210 --> 00:19:46,620
not a bit.

467
00:19:46,620 --> 00:19:48,630
This is quite true.

468
00:19:48,630 --> 00:19:50,820
Our contact is much
too superficial

469
00:19:50,820 --> 00:19:53,090
to be involved in caring.

470
00:19:53,090 --> 00:19:59,460
I care for you as far as
you are right now my client.

471
00:19:59,460 --> 00:20:05,390
I care for you as far as like
an artist, bring something out

472
00:20:05,390 --> 00:20:07,262
which is hidden in you.

473
00:20:07,262 --> 00:20:09,452
This is as far as I care.

474
00:20:09,452 --> 00:20:14,590


475
00:20:14,590 --> 00:20:17,793
Well, I'd like you to--

476
00:20:17,793 --> 00:20:20,200
I'd like to feel that there's
some-- it's frustrating.

477
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,270
If I were to leave you right
now and not see you again,

478
00:20:22,270 --> 00:20:23,830
it would frustrate
me to feel like there

479
00:20:23,830 --> 00:20:24,871
hadn't been more contact.

480
00:20:24,871 --> 00:20:26,985
I feel completely out
of contact with you,

481
00:20:26,985 --> 00:20:29,950
like I'm talking to the baby
that doesn't understand me

482
00:20:29,950 --> 00:20:31,242
or something like that.

483
00:20:31,242 --> 00:20:32,950
I don't feel like
we're a bit in contact.

484
00:20:32,950 --> 00:20:35,762
And oh, that frustrates me.

485
00:20:35,762 --> 00:20:37,720
That bothers me more than
being angry with you.

486
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:42,394
I'd rather we were angry and
fought than to have no contact.

487
00:20:42,394 --> 00:20:45,940
Yeah, this reminds me of when
my husband and I used to fight.

488
00:20:45,940 --> 00:20:47,560
He sits there and
he listens to me.

489
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,660
But he's not even aware
of how much I hate him

490
00:20:49,660 --> 00:20:52,440
and how mad I am at him.

491
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:54,460
I'd rather affect you.

492
00:20:54,460 --> 00:20:56,621
You don't really
hate me or something.

493
00:20:56,621 --> 00:20:59,920


494
00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:03,460
And I feel like you're purposely
staying out of contact with me.

495
00:21:03,460 --> 00:21:06,070
How should I be?

496
00:21:06,070 --> 00:21:07,980
Give me your fantasy.

497
00:21:07,980 --> 00:21:13,060
How could I share
my concern with you?

498
00:21:13,060 --> 00:21:14,680
I can't say in words.

499
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:16,600
I know the feeling
I'd see on you.

500
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:17,380
But I can't say.

501
00:21:17,380 --> 00:21:22,405
It's just a feeling
like, I don't know.

502
00:21:22,405 --> 00:21:24,280
It's like I want you to
respect him more as a

503
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,420
human being that
I've got feelings.

504
00:21:26,420 --> 00:21:28,430
Now we come back
to the beginning.

505
00:21:28,430 --> 00:21:29,910
So you want respect.

506
00:21:29,910 --> 00:21:30,820
Yes, I do.

507
00:21:30,820 --> 00:21:32,122
I do.

508
00:21:32,122 --> 00:21:33,580
This is a different
kind of respect

509
00:21:33,580 --> 00:21:34,921
than you meant the first time.

510
00:21:34,921 --> 00:21:35,421
Never mind.

511
00:21:35,421 --> 00:21:36,460
But you need respect?

512
00:21:36,460 --> 00:21:36,960
Yes.

513
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:41,056


514
00:21:41,056 --> 00:21:43,590
I respect you so
much as a human being

515
00:21:43,590 --> 00:21:47,440
that I refuse to accept
the phony part of yourself.

516
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,270
And that was my [? path ?]
to the genuine part.

517
00:21:50,270 --> 00:21:55,570
Right now, the last few minutes,
you were wonderfully genuine.

518
00:21:55,570 --> 00:21:59,472
You weren't playing any more.

519
00:21:59,472 --> 00:22:01,712
And I could see you
really were hurting.

520
00:22:01,712 --> 00:22:04,490


521
00:22:04,490 --> 00:22:06,820
Well, I don't feel
I've got a right.

522
00:22:06,820 --> 00:22:09,140
When I don't like
somebody or I disagree

523
00:22:09,140 --> 00:22:11,390
with what somebody is doing,
if I should respect them,

524
00:22:11,390 --> 00:22:13,280
if they're above me,
they're superior to me,

525
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:14,946
I don't feel I've got
a right to really,

526
00:22:14,946 --> 00:22:16,621
really tell you how mad I am.

527
00:22:16,621 --> 00:22:19,390
That's garbage.

528
00:22:19,390 --> 00:22:24,180
You're not-- you're getting
back to your safe corner.

529
00:22:24,180 --> 00:22:25,430
That's the way it feels.

530
00:22:25,430 --> 00:22:27,790
That's what the safe
corner feels like to me.

531
00:22:27,790 --> 00:22:30,190
Now go back to your safe corner.

532
00:22:30,190 --> 00:22:31,909
Because we have
to part very soon.

533
00:22:31,909 --> 00:22:33,200
You stayed in your safe corner.

534
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,390
You came out for a moment.

535
00:22:35,390 --> 00:22:36,500
You nearly [? met ?] me.

536
00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:39,070
You could get a little
bit angry with me.

537
00:22:39,070 --> 00:22:40,910
Now go back to your safety.

538
00:22:40,910 --> 00:22:43,670
I feel like you're telling me
the only way you'll respect me

539
00:22:43,670 --> 00:22:46,790
as a human being if I'm
aggressive and forceful and

540
00:22:46,790 --> 00:22:47,930
strong.

541
00:22:47,930 --> 00:22:49,640
I feel like you couldn't
even accept my--

542
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,440
I'd be scared to death
to cry in front of you.

543
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,060
I feel like you'd laugh
at me and call me a phony.

544
00:22:55,060 --> 00:22:56,810
I feel like you don't
accept my weak side.

545
00:22:56,810 --> 00:23:01,390
Only when I am yelling back
at you or hollering at you--

546
00:23:01,390 --> 00:23:03,650
You mustn't cry in my presence?

547
00:23:03,650 --> 00:23:06,600
Well, I wouldn't even
give you the satisfaction.

548
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:07,620
Say this again.

549
00:23:07,620 --> 00:23:09,320
No.

550
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:09,990
Say this again.

551
00:23:09,990 --> 00:23:12,510


552
00:23:12,510 --> 00:23:13,694
I'd try not to.

553
00:23:13,694 --> 00:23:15,110
I'd try not to cry
in front of you

554
00:23:15,110 --> 00:23:17,915
or show you my weak spot for
fear you'd jump on me again.

555
00:23:17,915 --> 00:23:20,340
Are you aware that
you're eyes are moist.

556
00:23:20,340 --> 00:23:22,480
I am aware that I
feel more choky.

557
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,390
Yes, I feel that--

558
00:23:24,390 --> 00:23:25,270
Could you choke me?

559
00:23:25,270 --> 00:23:29,210


560
00:23:29,210 --> 00:23:30,960
Pretend, but not for real.

561
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:31,956
Why not for real?

562
00:23:31,956 --> 00:23:34,380
Well, because I don't
hate you that much.

563
00:23:34,380 --> 00:23:36,562
Yes, you want to
choke my [INAUDIBLE].

564
00:23:36,562 --> 00:23:38,940
You want me to choke you
so that you wouldn't cry?

565
00:23:38,940 --> 00:23:41,560


566
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,380
I'd like to-- If I'd
like to choke you,

567
00:23:43,380 --> 00:23:45,430
it would be to make you cry.

568
00:23:45,430 --> 00:23:48,400
I'd like to see you weak.

569
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:53,860
I like to see you
hurt and vulnerable.

570
00:23:53,860 --> 00:23:57,860
What would this do for you?

571
00:23:57,860 --> 00:24:01,410
Make me feel like I have
more of a right to be hurt.

572
00:24:01,410 --> 00:24:03,812
And you wouldn't
jump on me so quick.

573
00:24:03,812 --> 00:24:06,390
Would you jump on
me if I would cry?

574
00:24:06,390 --> 00:24:07,640
No.

575
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,700
But I would jump on
you if you would cry?

576
00:24:10,700 --> 00:24:14,380
Are you sure of this?

577
00:24:14,380 --> 00:24:15,770
No, I'm not sure of it.

578
00:24:15,770 --> 00:24:19,200


579
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,630
What would you like me
to do if you were to cry?

580
00:24:21,630 --> 00:24:25,311


581
00:24:25,311 --> 00:24:25,810
I wasn't--

582
00:24:25,810 --> 00:24:28,366
Ah, you are smiling
something off.

583
00:24:28,366 --> 00:24:29,740
Well, because I
got two feelings.

584
00:24:29,740 --> 00:24:33,100
I was going to say I want
you to love me and hug me.

585
00:24:33,100 --> 00:24:34,060
But then I thought, no.

586
00:24:34,060 --> 00:24:35,750
I don't want to.

587
00:24:35,750 --> 00:24:37,240
What's your objection?

588
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,482
I'd be scared to be
too close to you.

589
00:24:40,482 --> 00:24:41,690
Now we are getting somewhere.

590
00:24:41,690 --> 00:24:44,082
First, you want
to be close to me.

591
00:24:44,082 --> 00:24:46,922
Now you're afraid to
be too close to me.

592
00:24:46,922 --> 00:24:50,200
That is what I'm saying, but--

593
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,410
Now we got with two
poles of your existence.

594
00:24:52,410 --> 00:24:53,910
But they are two
different feelings.

595
00:24:53,910 --> 00:24:58,000
Close, I mean emotionally,
but not physically.

596
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,625
But we've got the two poles
of your existence now.

597
00:25:01,625 --> 00:25:07,420
Either far away in a
corner or be so close

598
00:25:07,420 --> 00:25:10,152
that you can melt into
one with the other person.

599
00:25:10,152 --> 00:25:13,554


600
00:25:13,554 --> 00:25:15,910
It appears you travel
between the two extremes.

601
00:25:15,910 --> 00:25:22,110


602
00:25:22,110 --> 00:25:23,470
I do.

603
00:25:23,470 --> 00:25:27,400
You know what I'm thinking when
I am really hurt and really

604
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,052
upset about something and
I want someone to love me,

605
00:25:30,052 --> 00:25:31,510
like my girlfriend
will do it a lot

606
00:25:31,510 --> 00:25:34,262
and she'll come out to
hug me, I don't want it.

607
00:25:34,262 --> 00:25:34,762
Exactly.

608
00:25:34,762 --> 00:25:37,660


609
00:25:37,660 --> 00:25:39,820
That's what I'm talking about.

610
00:25:39,820 --> 00:25:41,780
You cannot sustain contact.

611
00:25:41,780 --> 00:25:45,140


612
00:25:45,140 --> 00:25:49,410
OK, this is
[? garbage. ?] What are

613
00:25:49,410 --> 00:25:51,840
you afraid of if you get too
close to your girlfriend,

614
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,020
if you let her hug you?

615
00:25:55,020 --> 00:25:57,330
The only thing I'm aware
of is when I perspire,

616
00:25:57,330 --> 00:26:00,360
it embarrasses me that
she'd feel how wet I am.

617
00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:02,220
And that she'd hold
my body up close.

618
00:26:02,220 --> 00:26:04,090
And I don't know.

619
00:26:04,090 --> 00:26:05,820
Are you aware of your
facial expression?

620
00:26:05,820 --> 00:26:07,958
There is a kind of
disgust growing.

621
00:26:07,958 --> 00:26:09,150
Yes I am.

622
00:26:09,150 --> 00:26:11,400
Do this more.

623
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,650
Icky.

624
00:26:13,650 --> 00:26:14,536
Just icky.

625
00:26:14,536 --> 00:26:15,660
I can just feel what it is.

626
00:26:15,660 --> 00:26:16,530
I don't like it.

627
00:26:16,530 --> 00:26:18,366
Can you say this to me,
Fritz, you are icky?

628
00:26:18,366 --> 00:26:24,558


629
00:26:24,558 --> 00:26:25,058
No.

630
00:26:25,058 --> 00:26:26,980
No?

631
00:26:26,980 --> 00:26:28,755
What's the difficulty?

632
00:26:28,755 --> 00:26:30,630
Because I feel like if
you really believed me

633
00:26:30,630 --> 00:26:32,820
that would hurt your feelings.

634
00:26:32,820 --> 00:26:37,180
Oh, you musn't hurt my feelings?

635
00:26:37,180 --> 00:26:40,800
I thought I was so indifferent,
as you said before, therefore,

636
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:41,900
nothing could touch me.

637
00:26:41,900 --> 00:26:42,400
No.

638
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,140
Now you suddenly discover
a way to touch me.

639
00:26:46,140 --> 00:26:48,540
Isn't it?

640
00:26:48,540 --> 00:26:50,310
Well, you know what I believe?

641
00:26:50,310 --> 00:26:52,620
I believe you're the type
of person, sort of like me,

642
00:26:52,620 --> 00:26:54,970
that you act like it
wouldn't hurt your feelings,

643
00:26:54,970 --> 00:26:56,310
but it really would.

644
00:26:56,310 --> 00:26:57,240
You act strong.

645
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,630
But you're soft and
vulnerable inside there, too.

646
00:27:00,630 --> 00:27:03,450


647
00:27:03,450 --> 00:27:07,320
I think your feelings
could be hurt, sure.

648
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,250
But I don't think you'd
show it very easy.

649
00:27:10,250 --> 00:27:12,930
What would I do?

650
00:27:12,930 --> 00:27:15,060
How would I conceal my feelings?

651
00:27:15,060 --> 00:27:17,320
By turning it back on me.

652
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,870
By saying now, what did
you get from that, Gloria?

653
00:27:20,870 --> 00:27:22,470
You'd turn the whole
thing back on me

654
00:27:22,470 --> 00:27:24,600
instead of showing
how hurt you were.

655
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,340
Now, can you say this to Fritz?

656
00:27:26,340 --> 00:27:28,570
What did you get
out of this, Fritz?

657
00:27:28,570 --> 00:27:30,310
Say this to me.

658
00:27:30,310 --> 00:27:31,526
What did you get out of what?

659
00:27:31,526 --> 00:27:33,150
What you just said,
just your sentence.

660
00:27:33,150 --> 00:27:38,457


661
00:27:38,457 --> 00:27:40,040
Sure, I know what
you'd get out of it.

662
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:41,998
If I said, what did you
get out of this, Fritz,

663
00:27:41,998 --> 00:27:44,657
you'd say nothing.

664
00:27:44,657 --> 00:27:45,490
It didn't bother me.

665
00:27:45,490 --> 00:27:46,370
It was you that did it.

666
00:27:46,370 --> 00:27:48,170
You still wouldn't let
me know you were hurt.

667
00:27:48,170 --> 00:27:49,586
But I know what
it would be if you

668
00:27:49,586 --> 00:27:51,020
told your true
feelings, that you

669
00:27:51,020 --> 00:27:52,270
didn't want to show your hurt.

670
00:27:52,270 --> 00:27:53,990
So you covered it up.

671
00:27:53,990 --> 00:27:56,060
Same way with me in the corner.

672
00:27:56,060 --> 00:27:59,732
Now if I were hurt, if I would
cry, what would you do with me?

673
00:27:59,732 --> 00:28:02,530


674
00:28:02,530 --> 00:28:05,670
You would be, you wouldn't
be so superior to me.

675
00:28:05,670 --> 00:28:08,289
You'd be more vulnerable
and I could pacify you

676
00:28:08,289 --> 00:28:09,330
and make you feel better.

677
00:28:09,330 --> 00:28:11,080
You could hug me.

678
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,220
And I could be the baby.

679
00:28:13,220 --> 00:28:15,050
Yes.

680
00:28:15,050 --> 00:28:16,950
Yes, I'd like that.

681
00:28:16,950 --> 00:28:18,360
You'd feel more on my level.

682
00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:20,580
I wouldn't have to
feel so dumb with you.

683
00:28:20,580 --> 00:28:25,910
And the other way around,
you would have to be my baby.

684
00:28:25,910 --> 00:28:27,390
She would cry.

685
00:28:27,390 --> 00:28:32,630
She would like to play the baby
and be comforted and heartened.

686
00:28:32,630 --> 00:28:33,320
Poor thing.

687
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,596
Well, I'd like that, too.

688
00:28:36,596 --> 00:28:38,444
Well, I'll tell you
something Gloria.

689
00:28:38,444 --> 00:28:39,860
I think we came
to a nice closure.

690
00:28:39,860 --> 00:28:43,873
I think we came to a little
bit of understanding.

691
00:28:43,873 --> 00:28:47,550
I think we should
finish this scene now.

692
00:28:47,550 --> 00:28:48,518
All right?

693
00:28:48,518 --> 00:28:49,486
All right.

694
00:28:49,486 --> 00:28:57,230


695
00:28:57,230 --> 00:29:01,380
The demonstration
was, in my opinion,

696
00:29:01,380 --> 00:29:05,750
quite successful and consistent
with my theoretical outlook.

697
00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:08,390
The avoidance of the
general encounter

698
00:29:08,390 --> 00:29:11,600
manifested itself in three ways.

699
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:16,790
The patient was
first taking control

700
00:29:16,790 --> 00:29:20,400
by putting on a smiling,
sophisticated, phony mask

701
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,240
oscillating between the
pretense of being frightened

702
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,880
and yet at the same time
having me figured out,

703
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:34,310
thus believing to be fully
in control of the situation.

704
00:29:34,310 --> 00:29:40,370
Secondly, she was
withdrawing by fantasizing

705
00:29:40,370 --> 00:29:43,260
of hiding in a corner.

706
00:29:43,260 --> 00:29:49,750
Fourthly, she was blocking
the real encounter

707
00:29:49,750 --> 00:29:54,530
of [INAUDIBLE] which
then would have

708
00:29:54,530 --> 00:30:00,010
been the real emotional
meaning of this meeting.

709
00:30:00,010 --> 00:30:02,480
The patient was capable
of identifying herself

710
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:07,010
as several fantasies she
had projected onto me.

711
00:30:07,010 --> 00:30:10,790
This was especially evident with
regard to her initial denial

712
00:30:10,790 --> 00:30:14,270
for a need to be respected.

713
00:30:14,270 --> 00:30:16,070
The need for
environmental support

714
00:30:16,070 --> 00:30:20,960
started to come out besides
a need to get respected.

715
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,290
It was verbalized in her
wish to be cared for, rescued

716
00:30:24,290 --> 00:30:28,040
from the corner, and so on.

717
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:33,410
I broke off the session when
the first tears began to appear.

718
00:30:33,410 --> 00:30:36,260
She began to play the
role of the lonely child

719
00:30:36,260 --> 00:30:39,540
and apparently wanted to
be hugged and comforted.

720
00:30:39,540 --> 00:30:42,200
But here, too, the
assimilation of her projection

721
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:43,650
began to work.

722
00:30:43,650 --> 00:30:46,700
And she began to experience
holding me like a baby.

723
00:30:46,700 --> 00:30:51,490


724
00:30:51,490 --> 00:30:55,520
Apart from assisting
her in assimilating

725
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,370
her [INAUDIBLE] projections,
the main therapeutic factor

726
00:30:58,370 --> 00:31:03,110
was to show the inconsistency
of her verbal and nonverbal

727
00:31:03,110 --> 00:31:04,280
behavior.

728
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:08,020
For instance, saying
that she was frightened

729
00:31:08,020 --> 00:31:10,710
and smiling at the same time.

730
00:31:10,710 --> 00:31:15,650
A frightened person
does not smile.

731
00:31:15,650 --> 00:31:20,550
The way I feared was in the
direction of her embarrassment.

732
00:31:20,550 --> 00:31:25,430
This embarrassment was protected
by her brazenness and anger.

733
00:31:25,430 --> 00:31:28,750
To get to her existing
existential embarrassment,

734
00:31:28,750 --> 00:31:32,300
we would have to go through
and eliminated the phoniness.

735
00:31:32,300 --> 00:31:36,040
That is the [? ego ?] with
which we can superficially

736
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:40,930
assume any role that is required
for a specific situation.

737
00:31:40,930 --> 00:31:46,430
This suited adaptation is
her way of coping with life.

738
00:31:46,430 --> 00:31:50,830
This is about what I
got out of this session.

739
00:31:50,830 --> 00:35:03,030