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The Tor Project - State of the Onion

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    rc3 preroll music
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    Herald: Our next speakers are Gus and GeKo
    from the Tor project. They both came on
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    onto the project. A couple have been
    working with the project for a long time
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    now, and a couple of years ago, they both
    came on as employees. Gus, as the team
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    leader, as the community lead of the
    project and Georg as the network team
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    leader, who has been working on improving
    the health of the network and making sure
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    that bad relays are removed. Give them all
    a great round of applause from home and
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    welcome to the stage, guys. Take it away.
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    Georg: Hello, everyone, hello. This is
    Georg from the Tor project, and I have got
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    with me today to talk about the State of
    the Onion, a yearly thing, and we are
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    really happy to be here at the CCC and
    think about providing an update, what we
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    did, what we are excited about next year
    and what is basically in the pipeline.
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    Before we start, assuming we have some
    folks watching this talk, wondering what
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    this Tor thing is? We thought about
    picking them up, getting them up to speed
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    and talking about what we are actually
    talking about here. So, Tor is concerned
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    with the online anonymity and censorship
    circumvention. It's referred to as free
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    software, and we actually have an open
    network of relay operators and relays and
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    operated by volunteers. But that's not the
    only meaning of Tor. You find you are as
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    well, you know, in a community of
    researchers, developers, users, and you
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    mentioned relay operators. As a project.
    We are a US 501c3 nonprofit organization.
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    So, that's the different notions of Tor
    you might encounter. So, what is actually
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    the Tor design? How does it help with the
    anonymity goal or censorship circumvention
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    goal? So, I assume you have two parties
    who want to communicate over the internet,
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    and they want particular. Alice wants to
    hide the location of their IP address, so
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    they can connect directly to Bob because
    that would be obvious where they are
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    coming from. So, they try to get their
    traffic through multiple relays. So, no
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    single relay can actually betray Alice
    here and find out now what Alice is up to,
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    or actually, where she is coming from. So,
    what Alice is doing, or actually Alice's
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    Tor-client on her machine is picking a
    path through the network where through
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    relays mentioned here with R1, R2 and R3
    before she's finally reaching Bob. So,
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    this looks like some something like this
    here, and at the end, Alice is asking the
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    exit relay or relay three on this slide to
    connect to Bob, and then they can talk to
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    each other. That's the basic underlying
    concept of Tor. Then there's the problem
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    that we sometimes see censorship in the
    wild, which means that adversaries trying
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    to prevent Alice from actually reaching
    the Tor-Network and so that she can
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    benefit from the privacy properties that
    the Network is providing. And in this
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    case, the direct connection to the cloud
    above there with the public relays as
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    presented. And what Alice needs to do is
    to connect to so-called bridges, which are
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    nonpublic relays in this case, which
    bridge work as a first hop. And then she
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    is picking the usual remaining two hops
    before connecting to Bob. So, this is a
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    rough idea of how Tor is trying to prevent
    censorship. Or to bypass censorship to be
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    more correctly and which will play a role
    in the coming slides because we talk a
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    bunch about censorship, work we do and
    have done and want to do. So, that's
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    basically Tor in a nutshell. That's there
    are many more things to Tor, but that's
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    hopefully enough to understand what the
    following updates are about. So, if you
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    recall the previous slides, that was
    basically trying to provide privacy at the
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    network layer for users hiding the IP
    addresses. But as we know, the web, in
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    particular browsers, are large beasts, and
    that's by far not enough anymore to
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    guarantee any meaningful privacy on the
    internet because of all of the tracking
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    mechanisms and arrays of fingerprint
    users. So, a couple of years ago, we
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    essentially started to provide a tool
    called Tor Browser, which is essentially a
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    fork of Firefox and has dozens of patches
    on top of that. So, we can actually
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    provide the privacy guarantees we think
    are important. And this tool got some, you
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    know, some meaningful updates over the
    year. And one of these is that we
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    overhauled the Tor connection experience.
    Some of you who are already familiar with
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    Tor browser, know about this weird modal
    dialog popping up once. This is (virtual)
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    browser, which was, up until the Tor
    browser 10.5, the default way of
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    connecting to the tunnel broker program,
    the Tor browser. And this is gone because
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    that's a really weird experience if you
    have any other browser, what is happening
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    once you started? You get a browser window
    and then start searching or typing or
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    whatever. You never get any modal dialog,
    which is a UX experience, which is not
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    really the best. So we fixed that. There's
    no modal dialog during startup anymore,
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    and there are easy ways to an easy way to
    connect automatically now. So, you don't
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    even see this particular sort of screen
    anymore, or was giving you much smoother
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    experience for your Tor browser usage,
    which is pretty exciting. Then we finally
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    deployed Snowflake, which is a means for
    helping censored users on the internet,
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    which is, you know, kind of next, next,
    next-level step in the arms race against
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    censors. And this has been in the works
    for a couple of years and has been testing
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    for months in our alpha release series and
    finally made it earlier this year and
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    stable. And you can see in this on this
    graph how the usage grew over time,
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    starting with the initial launch and the
    stable series at the beginning of July
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    this year. You see, there's a continually
    growing numbers of snowflake users you see
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    at the right side, the despite up and
    down, and we'll talk about this a bit
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    later. But it's a growth, and we can see
    this, and we can hear the feedback for
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    users. So, what you can help is. Running
    snowflakes, how this was going to work is
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    a thing Gus will explain later on. But
    that's already a thing you can try to
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    remember and getting out of this talk, so
    you can help censored users. Um, yeah,
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    that's two of the high notes for this year
    for the next year and upcoming years, we
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    plan to make it even easier to help
    censored users around the world, for
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    instance, by faster updating the D4
    bridges. we ship with the Tor browser.
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    Usually, what's happening right now is
    that once we want to bundle new bridges to
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    Tor browser, we have to have a new
    release, which is pretty cumbersome and
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    slow, and we want to make this faster that
    you can keep your Tor browser but get
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    updated bridges if there are any available
    which we can ship. And then we continue
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    working on the general idea of just
    helping users bypassing the censorship,
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    though they should have a button like "I
    am censored" and then Tor browser should
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    figure out everything it needs to provide
    working bridges for the user and the
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    particular region where they are. That's
    the kind of the golden standard we want to
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    get to. So, this will be pretty exciting
    work then for another project, actually a
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    multi-year project, which we recently
    started, I want you to give an update. The
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    Tor browser thing is pretty cool in the
    sense that you have an app, and then you
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    have per app settings kind per app means
    of providing privacy properties, but
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    particularly on Mobile, where you have
    kind of dozens or hundreds of apps. It's
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    pretty cumbersome if it's usable or
    possible at all to configure. Every app to
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    every app to use Tor as a proxy, so what
    we want, or we actually want to what you
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    just want on mobile at least, is a way to
    him to route all safe traffic and specific
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    safe applications through Tor. You don't
    want to configure this per app, though.
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    That's that's not the way to go. That's a
    pretty "VPN" like functionality to do. I
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    put "VPN" in quotes here because that's
    kind of a working, you know, concept we
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    would probably want to come up with the
    better term at the final product, because
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    VPN is kind of tainted and people have
    particular understandings of what this
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    means. VPN is, and you have kind of a new
    tool here which was trying to fill the
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    niche and provide better guarantees than
    regular VPNs do. So, we want probably come
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    up with a different term. But that's
    pretty close from the functionality point
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    of view. What we want to do and the bonus
    points here as well are that, We can
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    easily expand our censorship circumvention
    means to the whole device and don't have
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    to deal with that on a per app basis,
    either. The work is done with our friends
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    from the Guardian project and the LEAP
    Encryption Access Project, which is
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    exciting, and we plan to have this
    available on Android first, likely
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    starting in 2023. Maybe already at the end
    of next year, we'll see. As I said, it's a
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    multi-year project spanning different
    teams at Tor. It's using Arti the new rust
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    based (talk line) we are currently
    writing. So, that's a pretty exciting
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    project, and we hope you make serious
    progress over next year. So let me leave
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    the application part right now and talk a
    bit about what we could call network
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    health. The one of the points which
    frequently comes up, which is important,
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    is our work in the bad relay area. All the
    dealing with malicious relays remains hard
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    with our limited resources. We removed,
    for instance, several large groups of
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    actually relays in early 2021 and used
    this actually as kind of a wake-up call to
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    seriously invest in this area, which means
    writing new scanners for detecting
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    malicious behavior and do a better
    monitoring for malicious behavior at the
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    network. And I think over the year. I'm
    confident to say that we actually are
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    going to have a safer Tor network and
    compared with previous years, I think it's
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    fair to say as well that we right now have
    a safer Tor network as well compared to
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    what we had in the previous year. So, that
    is exciting progress. Worth mentioning
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    here, but that's not enough, right? So,
    what we actually want to do to provide an
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    even safer experience and tackling the the
    the problem of malicious relays more at
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    the core, is leveraging trust in our relay
    community, helping with those problems.
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    And the key points to take away here is
    that is. It mixed approach in the sense
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    that we have technical tools helping, that
    really work. But as well this is a social
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    approach, which is important here because
    we can't solve the problem of malicious
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    relays on the technical means alone. And
    this is the thing we take into account
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    right now already started successfully, I
    think with experiments, for instance, we
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    removed like three weeks ago, two large
    groups of relays which we deemed to be
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    malicious, which were perfectly configured
    from a configuration perspective. Then all
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    the my family settings, and they had a
    contact info information side, which was
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    supposed to be non-spoofable. So, they did
    all the technical parts right, but still,
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    once we start to contact them and tried to
    talk to them, it was pretty clear they
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    were very likely malicious, and we removed
    them quickly from the network, which
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    showed us once more that there's a social
    component here too, which is important.
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    And this will be the priority for the
    network health team, not only for the
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    team. I mean, yes, the community team
    involved as well, and other teams too. But
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    it would be important for the Tor project
    in 2022. And what this means at the end,
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    you know, taking trust into account is not
    set yet. That could be the idea that we
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    say, OK, we have here a large group of
    trusted relays, and they get more traffic
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    to see a lot more traffic to see from uses
    compared to the non-trusted group. This
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    has performance implications and many
    other implications, which we need to
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    explore in detail. Starting this year, but
    more next year, and probably for the
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    coming years, which actually brings me to
    my final point for my part, which is
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    talking to you a bit about Tor performance
    and the work we did this year and what's
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    coming up next. So, if you look at these
    and this graph of those two graphs, you
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    see a growing gap between the bandwidth,
    which is virtualized on the network and
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    the actually used bandwidth over the
    years, starting from, you know, kind of
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    2011 and continuing up until today. This
    is kind of counterintuitive because one of
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    the things we usually get, as, kind of
    most of the most important complaint, is
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    that Tor is slow? So, so what's the issue
    here? If you have so much kind of surplus
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    bandwidth, but it's not getting used, but
    on the other hand, users are complaining
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    Tor is slow. So, we have a project which
    is trying to solve those problems. We
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    think that a big part of this equation is
    coming up in that good congestion control
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    for the Tor Network, which was lacking so
    far. So, that we have an overall better
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    bandwidth usage. And this could be
    implemented this year, which is exciting,
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    and will be deployed next year. And we
    hopefully see not this growing gap
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    anymore, but a shrinking gap.
    Additionally, one thing we sorely missed
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    was feedback for relay operators, whether
    their relays are doing well, whether they
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    are overloaded and whether they can
    improve settings and make the proper
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    modifications. So, we implemented a series
    of kind of warnings or triggers which
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    relay operators can monitor and we from
    the Tor Project side can monitor as well.
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    And then we can ping relay operators and
    helping them figure out their stuff and
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    getting those issues fixed. Resolving the
    overload they see on their relays and
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    planned for 2022 as well is that we start
    to do better load balancing by figuring
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    out which relays are seriously overloaded
    and moving traffic from them back to less
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    overloaded relays, giving an overall
    better performance and user experience for
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    all users. So, I think that's all I had to
    say from my side. Thanks for listening and
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    our Gus will pick this up.
    Gus: Thank you, Georg. So, hello. This is
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    Gus from the Tor project. And today I will
    talk a little bit about the Community Team
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    and our work on the Tor community, so we
    will cover the new user support forum, our
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    new gamification project. The "run a
    bridge" campaign that we started last
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    month, and we are also going to talk about
    the Tor censorship in Russia. So, for the
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    third forum, we at the beginning of this
    year, we start to think about having a
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    place where people can ask questions. That
    is not the mailing list. So, in 2021, what
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    looks like a support forum? You know how
    where users can do questions and receive
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    help. So, email and use of the
    communication are nice, are cool and
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    important because people in certain
    regions, they can access this resource.
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    They can send an email from Iran, from
    China, from Russia now, and they can
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    access our documentation. But you are
    thinking about, are there other ways to
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    reach out to this community to find
    places, to find a way, for them to
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    communicate and ask questions? So, part of
    GS plan is to,..., The first part of this
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    plan is to have a Tor forum, so people can
    access this information and ask questions
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    on your support forum. That's friendly,
    and you can store an app on your phone and
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    contact and talk with others. And later,
    we'll talk about the second part of this
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    plan. So, we launched the Tor Forum
    jazzier in October, and it has been very
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    nice, and I invite everyone to join our
    forum. The other project that we are doing
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    in the community team is the gamification
    project for relay operators. So, the idea
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    is to understand what, what are the
    motivations, how we can incentivize better
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    the Tor network, how we can grow, the Tor
    network, basically, or why people are
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    stopping children relays. So, we are doing
    this as part of our internship, and Nico
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    is our intern, and she is doing this work,
    and we have a survey online, so people can
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    ask some questions and give feedback about
    their experience, running relays. And last
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    month in November, we launched our
    campaign to get more bridges and in as far
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    as ... Well, Bridges are very important
    for users, living in censored countries.
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    This is how they are going to connect to
    the Tor network. So, our plan was to have
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    200 new obfs4 bridges. obfs4 is a
    pluggable transport that can obfuscate
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    your Tor connection. And we, ... so the
    plan was 200 new bridges and the campaign
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    staffs at now are at 947 new running
    Bridges. 847 new obfs4 bridges, and the
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    network size about from 1200 to 2000 new
    bridges overall. So, the campaign was a
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    real success and we ... and you can see on
    the graph here on the screen how the
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    campaign changed the course of the network
    size here. And so, this campaign started
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    in November and December, a situation just
    happened. So, at the beginning of
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    December, we received a lot of users
    asking for support in Russia and what it
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    was not? Well, we usually have some users
    asking for help, but this time was
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    different. We received, like a lot of user
    support requests, basically emails asking
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    for Tor bridges, and that was very strange
    because we didn't know anything happening.
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    So, we start to investigate with OONI
    which is the "Open Observatory of Network
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    Interference" to understand what was
    happening. So, we start to see some
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    anomalies on the Tor net in Russia,
    basically blocking not just our website,
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    but also the Tor network and not only the
    Tor network, but also some Tor bridges.
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    And that was like, ... we started to look
    into that to understand what was
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    happening. So, we start to collect
    information, and we put together (...)
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    Ticket and a few days later, we received
    an email from Russian authorities saying
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    that they were going to block the
    Torproject domain, and basically, failed
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    to give us a reason, and we didn't
    understand what was happening, so we, ...
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    I'm going to skip the lawyer part and the
    reason that they are blocking the Tor
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    project website and I will focus on what
    they are actually doing and how that is
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    impacting the Tor network and the Tor
    community. So, Russia is the second-
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    largest country of Tor users, after users
    in the United States, Russia, Germany,
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    Netherlands and other countries that are
    the top 10 top 20 countries that are using
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    Tor. In the end, as we start to look at
    the metrics and see that the numbers of
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    our users were decreasing in December. And
    we also saw that the bridge users also
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    increasing. So, you can see clearly the
    impact of the censorship on just a graph
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    here and just a graph is available on the
    metrics portal too. So, the summary here
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    is, well, On December 1st, the Russian
    authorities they blocked Tor Directory
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    Authorities. So if you have Tor followed
    on your computer, you cannot bootstrap
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    Tor. They block Tor Browser Bridges. So if
    you have Tor browser installed, you cannot
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    use these bridges. They also block a
    domain fronting with Azure. So if you try
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    to bypass censorship, that was not going
    to work. They also blocked Snowflake,
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    which we will talk about a little bit
    later. And they also blocked a bunch of
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    Tor bridges in different internet
    providers. So, it depends on where you are
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    in Russia, you can use Tor. But in other
    places, that was going to be more
  • 25:34 - 25:39
    complicated. And the only way to bypass
    the censorship at the time on December 1st
  • 25:39 - 25:44
    was to use a bridge from
    https://bridges.torproject.org or from our
  • 25:44 - 25:51
    email. And so, we start to fight the
    censorship, we launched our Telegram bot
  • 25:51 - 25:56
    that you can get a bridge and that the
    bridges is not blocked in Russia. And we
  • 25:56 - 26:00
    tasked these bridges on all of these
    points on Russia to see if they are
  • 26:00 - 26:05
    blocked, if they are blocked we ask for
    relay operator to hold that IP address.
  • 26:05 - 26:11
    So, Tor Bridges are working, and we are
    checking if they are checking in,
  • 26:11 - 26:18
    recording if they are working. That are
    community also fought back and that our
  • 26:18 - 26:24
    committee spin up like more than 400 new
    Tor bridges in just a few days. I mean, we
  • 26:24 - 26:32
    have amazing volunteers translating Tor
    user support guides in Russian, and doing
  • 26:32 - 26:39
    after the first block on December 1st. The
    anti-censorship thing also provide a fix
  • 26:39 - 26:45
    for snowflake, and just fix what's
    available on Tor browser, the last
  • 26:45 - 26:52
    release. So, you can see onto the graph
    that Snowflake was around like less than
  • 26:52 - 26:59
    2000 users, but after December, you can
    see it take a while, but then such
  • 26:59 - 27:05
    increase the number of snowflake users,
    basically because of Russia. And you can
  • 27:05 - 27:13
    see just a graph here. There's a decrease
    here, is because the server crashed after
  • 27:13 - 27:19
    too many users. So, we fixed the server,
    and we start to get more users. So, if you
  • 27:19 - 27:24
    want to help people inside this country,
    you can run a Tor bridge, or you can run a
  • 27:24 - 27:31
    snowflake proxy and that that will be very
    helpful for Tor users in Russia. And a new
  • 27:31 - 27:38
    update, during Christmas, we also had a
    new round of censorship in Russia. More
  • 27:38 - 27:46
    bridges were blocked between December 23
    and 24. We are going to reach out to relay
  • 27:46 - 27:51
    operators, and we are going to contact
    them and say, OK, you need to rotate your
  • 27:51 - 27:57
    IP address if you want to get back in the
    game and fight censorship. And we are
  • 27:57 - 28:03
    going to do that and just (check) if
    snowflake is working fine, and we have
  • 28:03 - 28:10
    been working with doing the other support
    with Russian users. And we already
  • 28:10 - 28:16
    answered more than 1300 Help requests
    since December 1st. Just for comparison,
  • 28:16 - 28:24
    we resolved 1400 support tickets between
    January and November. So, in one month, we
  • 28:24 - 28:32
    already have more user support request
    from Russia than, you know, in 12 months,
  • 28:32 - 28:40
    basically. So, uh, so I will do a call
    here for the international community to
  • 28:40 - 28:46
    spin up a Tor bridge or run a snowflake
    proxy. If you can't, if you cannot run a
  • 28:46 - 28:52
    bridge, you can donate to relay
    associations. If you cannot donate, you
  • 28:52 - 28:58
    can help and teach our users about Tor
    bridges. Or you can help localize Tor in
  • 28:58 - 29:04
    Russian. Or you can do. We can apply
    pressure like if you are part of a digital
  • 29:04 - 29:09
    rights organization or your organization
    and help us to make pressure on the
  • 29:09 - 29:16
    Russian government. And stand up and start
    (a directory) like Edward Snowden did and
  • 29:16 - 29:22
    publish messages calling the Russian
    government to stop blocking Tor. How to
  • 29:22 - 29:29
    get involved. We are available on our IRC
    and Matrix channels. You can join us, our
  • 29:29 - 29:35
    mailing list. They are public and you can
    see what we are talking, and you can help.
  • 29:35 - 29:41
    You can also join the Tor Forum and you
    can contribute on GitLab. And for next
  • 29:41 - 29:46
    year, we are going to improve. We are
    going to continue to improve our user
  • 29:46 - 29:52
    support tools for users living in censored
    countries or regions. So one of our ideas
  • 29:52 - 29:59
    is to provide a Telegram chat channel, so
    users can communicate and have and get
  • 29:59 - 30:04
    user support on Telegram. We are going to
    continue to develop the Tor relay
  • 30:04 - 30:10
    gamification project, and continue to
    organize our trainings in the global
  • 30:10 - 30:16
    south, in Latin America and Africa, and
    organize relay operators meetups. Today we
  • 30:16 - 30:24
    are going to have our relay operator meet-
    up at 10:00 p.m. German time. And the link
  • 30:24 - 30:28
    you can find on the Tor relay mailing
    list. And also, if you search on Twitter,
  • 30:28 - 30:37
    on social media, you can also find that,
    um. And today we just covered some topics
  • 30:37 - 30:44
    from the state of the onion. One month
    ago, we did a huge presentation like two
  • 30:44 - 30:50
    and a half hours about anti-censorship
    from the rising UX SysAdmin team and many
  • 30:50 - 30:58
    other updates about Arti, about virtual or
    non deprecation and many other topics. And
  • 30:58 - 31:04
    you can watch that on YouTube. So, I think
    that's it from my side, and we are open
  • 31:04 - 31:08
    for more questions.
  • 31:08 - 31:12
    Herald: Thank you so much, guys. Like
    obviously, Tor is a really important
  • 31:12 - 31:17
    project and that's honestly great to see
    how dedicated you are to basically helping
  • 31:17 - 31:22
    everyone. I was actually. Now we're going
    to go on to the question, and I was
  • 31:22 - 31:27
    actually wondering something myself before
    we head over to taking the ones coming in
  • 31:27 - 31:32
    from the internet. Basically, I as far as
    I understand like when you working with
  • 31:32 - 31:36
    bridges and making sure to like, avoid
    this censorship and everything like as far
  • 31:36 - 31:41
    as I understand, an important tool in this
    process are the meek-bridges where you use
  • 31:41 - 31:46
    huge cloud providers to basically mask
    traffic to Tor. It's like regular HTTPS
  • 31:46 - 31:52
    website traffic. Does that not work in the
    case of Russia or like what does the
  • 31:52 - 31:57
    attack threat situation look like at the
    moment? And that's the landscape.
  • 31:57 - 32:05
    Gus: I can answer in two parts. The first
    part is that some cloud providers, they
  • 32:05 - 32:12
    don't like domain fronting. And so, Amazon
    and others, they change their policy, and
  • 32:12 - 32:22
    they start to block, well, not just block,
    but to remove projects that were using
  • 32:22 - 32:30
    domain fronting. So, the only cloud
    provider that allows Tor or allow Tor to
  • 32:30 - 32:39
    do that was Azure, and we had to limit the
    bandwidth on that. So if you use meek-
  • 32:39 - 32:46
    Azure on Tor browser, it's going to be
    very slow. And one thing that we saw, just
  • 32:46 - 32:52
    as the first part, like the providers,
    they don't like that they were enforcing
  • 32:52 - 32:59
    us to stalk, or we will remove just
    support. The other thing is that the bill,
  • 32:59 - 33:07
    like the cost of running a meek-Azure
    bridge or a meek-Amazon bridge, but it
  • 33:07 - 33:15
    that was too high and too costly. So,
    snowflake is the next step here because it
  • 33:15 - 33:26
    uses domain fronting to connect you to a
    Tor proxy. It's not like proxy, and the
  • 33:26 - 33:35
    cost will be like very cheap. So, you can
    get the benefit of domain fronting, and
  • 33:35 - 33:43
    you can use a lot of proxies to connect
    Tor users. And that will not cost a lot of
  • 33:43 - 33:49
    money for the Tor project or for Tor
    users. So, that is the way to go here is
  • 33:49 - 33:56
    not to look back, but look forward.Laugh
    Herald: It sounds so cool. Like obviously
  • 33:56 - 34:01
    it seems that this was very important and
    actually hearing like some of the problems
  • 34:01 - 34:05
    that you guys are facing in your fight, I
    think that's very interesting for all of
  • 34:05 - 34:12
    us. So questions from the audience. The
    first one is that the apps that you're
  • 34:12 - 34:18
    making like the question is, whether they
    would make you identifiable. So basically,
  • 34:18 - 34:23
    if exactly those five apps are always
    calling home over the same Tor nodes, the
  • 34:23 - 34:29
    question is if that if someone could link
    that back to you?
  • 34:29 - 34:34
    Georg: Hmm. Do you want to talk about this
    Gus? Or should I?
  • 34:34 - 34:39
    Gus: Go ahead.
    Georg: Yeah, I think this should not be
  • 34:39 - 34:49
    the case. I mean, depending on what kind
    of apps you have, how they are configured
  • 34:49 - 34:56
    and such and potential, you know, timing
    signatures and stuff. So, that's one of
  • 34:56 - 35:02
    the things we're concerned, for instance,
    with Tor browser and trying to really make
  • 35:02 - 35:09
    sure to break this up in the sense that
    folks can't learn anything about those
  • 35:09 - 35:17
    patterns you have. It's hard, in
    particular, if adversaries can monitor,
  • 35:17 - 35:25
    you know, exit nodes or endpoints over a
    long period of time. But generally, you
  • 35:25 - 35:30
    should be protected from this kind of
    threat.
  • 35:30 - 35:39
    Herald: Right. That makes sense. So, the
    next question is that if they understand
  • 35:39 - 35:44
    correctly, the Tor organization is
    registered in the United States, could the
  • 35:44 - 35:48
    project be in danger of any government
    pressure to be discontinued, And have you
  • 35:48 - 35:58
    guys have a plan to move to more neutral
    countries like Switzerland or similar?
  • 36:03 - 36:10
    Gus: So from my point of view, I don't
    think we suffer any pressure right now
  • 36:11 - 36:19
    from US government. So, I think. Would
    what would you be interested? Well, one
  • 36:19 - 36:24
    thing that is important is one thing is
    that the Tor project and the other thing
  • 36:24 - 36:31
    is the Tor network. The Tor Network is,...
    we have directed authorities in different
  • 36:31 - 36:38
    countries and that just to avoid this kind
    of government pressure against the Tor
  • 36:38 - 36:49
    network. So, I think the question would be
    more like finding different ways to fund,
  • 36:49 - 36:59
    ..., make Tor sustainable, not just. Like
    diversifying our funds, so we don't be so
  • 36:59 - 37:07
    connected with a government, are one
    source provider of resource. I think just
  • 37:07 - 37:16
    it's happening right now. Isabella, the
    executive director, has changing a lot of
  • 37:16 - 37:24
    our money income. And if you look back in
    the Tor history, US government was adding
  • 37:24 - 37:32
    a lot of money through to the TOR project
    in different by different ways, you know,
  • 37:32 - 37:39
    like a human rights projects and internet
    freedom projects. And just was basically
  • 37:39 - 37:44
    how Tor is and was funded by U.S.
    government, but not just U.S. government,
  • 37:44 - 37:50
    other governments like Swedish government
    too. So, I think I would be more concerned
  • 37:50 - 37:58
    about the Tor directed authorities being
    in just one country, and that's not true.
  • 37:58 - 38:04
    We are in different countries and they so
    far I don't I never heard any kind of
  • 38:04 - 38:12
    pressure from the U.S. government against
    the nonprofit, call it the Tor project.
  • 38:12 - 38:16
    So, I think that it's basically, my answer
    here.
  • 38:16 - 38:22
    Herald: That's good to hear. And now on to
    maybe a little bit lighter question, do
  • 38:22 - 38:29
    Tor browser users have any chance or hope
    to see less captchas in the future?
  • 38:29 - 38:37
    Georg: Yeah. Yeah. I think we do have some
    hope, there is, ... I mean, not just only
  • 38:37 - 38:46
    hope. But we have work ongoing solving
    this from different angles. The first one
  • 38:46 - 38:53
    is outreach to major providers trying to
    understand why they are blocking Tor or
  • 38:53 - 38:59
    why they provide, captchas and working
    with them to come up with solutions, which
  • 39:00 - 39:07
    are not only deployable by them, but by
    the wider industry. So, there is a
  • 39:07 - 39:13
    knowledge gap here and then trying to,
    ..., based on that, trying to figure out
  • 39:13 - 39:19
    how we can solve this problem. And that's
    not only from , you know, policy angle,
  • 39:19 - 39:28
    but we plan to look into technical means
    as well. For instance. There's the idea of
  • 39:28 - 39:36
    providing tokens to Tor users, so
    they can, which they can spend anonymously
  • 39:36 - 39:43
    at websites, for instance, and the
    websites can look for that and try to
  • 39:44 - 39:50
    regulate the traffic, keeping the noisy
    bots out while providing good service to
  • 39:50 - 39:58
    our users providing such a token. That's
    another thing that won't be solved next
  • 39:58 - 40:04
    year. It's a multi-year project, too. We
    are a small organization, so there has to
  • 40:04 - 40:11
    be some kind of prioritization. But that's
    definitely on our radar and a serious
  • 40:11 - 40:17
    problem for us. So, we should fix this.
    Herald: Sounds like great initiatives and
  • 40:17 - 40:22
    also like that going some of the way in
    order to some extent legitimize the use of
  • 40:22 - 40:26
    the Tor browser. Maybe not as much in
    common society, but also when actually
  • 40:26 - 40:29
    visiting different websites.
    Georg: Yeah, exactly.
  • 40:29 - 40:36
    Herald: Nice. Next up is whether you guys
    are planning to figure out some kind of
  • 40:36 - 40:41
    solutions for firewalls, for instance, the
    corporate ones that are slowing traffic
  • 40:41 - 40:55
    down.
    Georg: I know, Gus, do you. Do you have
  • 40:55 - 41:02
    some, you know, queries or complaints from
    users for this particular issue? I'm not
  • 41:02 - 41:12
    sure about that.
    Gus: Yeah, I and. I just want to be a very
  • 41:12 - 41:16
    specific question, I ....
    Herald: It's also very fair to just say
  • 41:16 - 41:20
    that it's not a problem that you've heard
    a lot of complaints about,
  • 41:20 - 41:24
    Georg: Right.
    Gus: Yeah, sure, that's true. We I didn't
  • 41:24 - 41:30
    hear about that. Like the captacha one is
    a popular one, but I never heard.
  • 41:30 - 41:38
    Georg: I think they're a bunch of larger
    things to fry here, there. It's not really
  • 41:38 - 41:44
    in our not even our top 10. So there.
    Herald: Right? I guess it can also be very
  • 41:44 - 41:48
    hard for you guys to like, work with
    figuring out how to prioritize all the
  • 41:48 - 41:51
    different initiatives and wishes that that
    people have.
  • 41:51 - 42:02
    Georg: Yeah, definitely.
    Herald: Cool. So unfortunately, we don't
  • 42:02 - 42:07
    have time for any more questions right
    now, but there is a break-out room that
  • 42:07 - 42:13
    people can come to, and you will answer
    any further questions. For now, we are
  • 42:13 - 42:19
    going to have a break on this channel
    before the next talk that's going on at
  • 42:19 - 42:24
    20:00, which is (in German) "Cookiebanner,
    das Online-Werbe-Ökosystem und Google,
  • 42:24 - 42:31
    Preisträger BigBrotherAwards 2021" For
    now, thank you very much, guys. Take care
  • 42:31 - 42:36
    and maybe we'll see you in the break-out
    room.
  • 42:36 - 42:48
    postroll music
  • 42:48 - 42:52
    Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de
    in the year 2021. Join, and help us!
Title:
The Tor Project - State of the Onion
Description:

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Video Language:
English
Duration:
42:50

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