Sal Khan has conversation with MIT Dean of Admissions

- So I'm here with Stu Schmill,
Dean of Admissions at MIT.

Thanks for joining me.

- Sure, happy to, Sal.

- So what I wanted to ask you about is,

it's just the general
notion of, well, of course,

college admissions, but in particular,

there tends to be some stereotypes

in terms of what makes
a competitive applicant,

and I'll just throw out,
at least my stereotype of,

you take, i don't know,
five, six AP courses

and you do really well in them,

you have a very high SAT score,

your GPA is near perfect,

you're close to the top of your class,

you're vice-president or president

of three or four clubs,

you play first viola in
the symphony or whatever,

whatever it might be--

- Or all of those, yes.

- All of those, so how much truth

is there to that and or not?

- Well, I think the things
that you've just described

are components

that a certain student might have

as part of their
application, and it is not

the first way that we think about

evaluating students.

So, we think about
trying to enroll students

that are going to succeed

academically on our campuses,

who are going to be
well-matched to our institution,

so that the kinds of things that motivates

those students, that get them excited,

are the things and the
culture on our campus,

and then we think about
what kind of contributions

that those students might be
able to make to our campuses,

which might mean any particular kinds of

talent that they have, but also

how engaged they're going to be

in the life of the university.

So that's really the lens
that we're looking through

and students can manifest those things

and demonstrate those
things in different ways.

So, you talked about a number of

AP classes and things like that

that students might have, and for us,

we're looking at the choices
that students have made

around their academics but
also their non-academics,

so academically, we want to see

that students are challenging themselves

in the things that really interest them,

and students can do that in
any number of different ways.

So AP classes may be one,
but there are other ways

of doing that as well,

and not all students have
even access to AP classes.

And it's not as though
there's a particular tally

or score sheet that we have

where we're looking at a student's record

and saying they have
to have certain markers

because, really, there are all
different kinds of markers,

all different ways that
students can demonstrate

these different talents.

So if certainly, academically,
as I said earlier,

not all students have
access to taking AP classes,

so there may be other ways

that students can demonstrate to us

that academically
they're going to be ready

to succeed on our campus.

- So there are these two realities.

On one extreme, you have,

and this is maybe the
more traditional reality,

that students taking a lot
of very rigorous courses,

doing a lot of homework, staying
until 2:00 in the morning,

they're very stressed out,

they, frankly, don't have
time to pursue their passions.

On the other side, you could have students

who aren't in a traditional system maybe,

and maybe they don't even
have traditional grades,

but they're able to show evidence

of their academic knowledge
through a standardized test,

through, maybe they take things like

the AP tests themselves, maybe
independent study for it,

maybe they take some college courses,

but they have more time
to pursue their passions

and build portfolios,

I mean, on some levels,
basically what I'm hearing,

it sounds like that second
string might even be

at an advantage.

- I think students that
are overloading themselves,

their coursework,

where they don't leave any
time for anything else,

are definitely doing
themselves a disservice.

I think students, again,
challenge themselves

in the areas that interest them,

but I think students also really need to

leave themselves time and capacity

to pursue more independent projects.

Independent, I don't mean by themselves,

independent projects could mean

with other people, certainly,

but these other projects
that allow students

to use some creativity

and independent thought

in coming up with some
new and interesting things

in whatever topics interest them,

those are the kinds of things

that we also really like to see

students submit as part
of their application,

we really like to see it,

and those kinds of projects
can really help students,

because it can show them, it can show us,

kinds of things that
students might want to pursue

once they come to campus,

and, so, on the academic side,

really, we're just looking for evidence

that students are talented and capable,

and that they're gonna
do well, and beyond that,

we're looking at the rest of it, and those

portfolios that students can submit

showing the independent work they've done

can really enhance their applications.

- So a student, just to make it concrete,

a student with strong SAT scores,

ones that we show are ACT scores,

that show evidence that they'll
do well at a place like MIT,

strong, maybe, AP scores,

and the rigorous ones that
they have an interest in,

plus a portfolio of things that they've,

substantive things that they've done,

not just, kind of, cookbook projects,

but things that will
really show their passions,

they would have a strong application.

- Those students would have
a very strong application.

- So that brings up another
interesting dimension,

I mean, at the other extreme end of this,

you do have some home schooled students,

you have this unschooling movement,

but how do you evaluate those students,

and actually even compare
them relative to the students

who are taking the five AP classes

in a traditional college prep school?

- Right.

So, I think thinking about
home schooled students

is a great way

to demonstrate the fact that

it's not just about the AP classes

because we have home schooled students

who were very successful

and who do successful in
our process, certainly,

but also become very
successful once at MIT.

We do need evidence, though,
that they're going to do well,

and there are a number of ways

that students can demonstrate that to us.

It is one of the reasons why
we require standardized tests,

I mean, that's one piece of information.

It's not all of it, but it's one.

Some students, right,

who are not in traditional
schooling pathways

will still take classes

in less traditional ways,

so some will take classes at
local colleges, for example,

and be able to demonstrate
their ability that way.

And then there are other various kinds of,

of ways students can do it,

for example, the American Math Competition

offers these competitions
where students who have a

high ability in math can
do well on these exams

and progress towards and
through the Olympiad program,

and it's a way for students
to demonstrate, again,

their talents, at least in
math, so that's one example,

and there are other ways like that.

So we're open to evaluating
all kinds of evidence

that students can present to us

to demonstrate

their ability to succeed
once they come here.

- Well, thank you, I think
that this is really exciting.

I think I have some young
people I need to call

and tell them about it.
(Stu laughs)

- That's great, send them our way.

(Sal laughs softly)