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- So I'm here with Stu Schmill,
Dean of Admissions at MIT.

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Thanks for joining me.

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- Sure, happy to, Sal.

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- So what I wanted to ask you about is,

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it's just the general
notion of, well, of course,

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college admissions, but in particular,

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there tends to be some stereotypes

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in terms of what makes
a competitive applicant,

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and I'll just throw out,
at least my stereotype of,

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you take, i don't know,
five, six AP courses

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and you do really well in them,

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you have a very high SAT score,

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your GPA is near perfect,

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you're close to the top of your class,

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you're vice-president or president

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of three or four clubs,

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you play first viola in
the symphony or whatever,

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whatever it might be--

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- Or all of those, yes.

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- All of those, so how much truth

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is there to that and or not?

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- Well, I think the things
that you've just described

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are components

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that a certain student might have

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as part of their
application, and it is not

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the first way that we think about

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evaluating students.

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So, we think about
trying to enroll students

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that are going to succeed

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academically on our campuses,

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who are going to be
well-matched to our institution,

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so that the kinds of things that motivates

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those students, that get them excited,

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are the things and the
culture on our campus,

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and then we think about
what kind of contributions

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that those students might be
able to make to our campuses,

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which might mean any particular kinds of

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talent that they have, but also

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how engaged they're going to be

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in the life of the university.

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So that's really the lens
that we're looking through

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and students can manifest those things

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and demonstrate those
things in different ways.

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So, you talked about a number of

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AP classes and things like that

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that students might have, and for us,

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we're looking at the choices
that students have made

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around their academics but
also their non-academics,

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so academically, we want to see

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that students are challenging themselves

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in the things that really interest them,

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and students can do that in
any number of different ways.

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So AP classes may be one,
but there are other ways

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of doing that as well,

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and not all students have
even access to AP classes.

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And it's not as though
there's a particular tally

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or score sheet that we have

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where we're looking at a student's record

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and saying they have
to have certain markers

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because, really, there are all
different kinds of markers,

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all different ways that
students can demonstrate

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these different talents.

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So if certainly, academically,
as I said earlier,

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not all students have
access to taking AP classes,

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so there may be other ways

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that students can demonstrate to us

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that academically
they're going to be ready

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to succeed on our campus.

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- So there are these two realities.

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On one extreme, you have,

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and this is maybe the
more traditional reality,

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that students taking a lot
of very rigorous courses,

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doing a lot of homework, staying
until 2:00 in the morning,

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they're very stressed out,

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they, frankly, don't have
time to pursue their passions.

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On the other side, you could have students

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who aren't in a traditional system maybe,

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and maybe they don't even
have traditional grades,

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but they're able to show evidence

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of their academic knowledge
through a standardized test,

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through, maybe they take things like

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the AP tests themselves, maybe
independent study for it,

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maybe they take some college courses,

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but they have more time
to pursue their passions

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and build portfolios,

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I mean, on some levels,
basically what I'm hearing,

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it sounds like that second
string might even be

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at an advantage.

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- I think students that
are overloading themselves,

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their coursework,

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where they don't leave any
time for anything else,

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are definitely doing
themselves a disservice.

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I think students, again,
challenge themselves

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in the areas that interest them,

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but I think students also really need to

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leave themselves time and capacity

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to pursue more independent projects.

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Independent, I don't mean by themselves,

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independent projects could mean

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with other people, certainly,

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but these other projects
that allow students

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to use some creativity

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and independent thought

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in coming up with some
new and interesting things

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in whatever topics interest them,

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those are the kinds of things

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that we also really like to see

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students submit as part
of their application,

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we really like to see it,

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and those kinds of projects
can really help students,

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because it can show them, it can show us,

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kinds of things that
students might want to pursue

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once they come to campus,

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and, so, on the academic side,

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really, we're just looking for evidence

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that students are talented and capable,

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and that they're gonna
do well, and beyond that,

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we're looking at the rest of it, and those

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portfolios that students can submit

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showing the independent work they've done

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can really enhance their applications.

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- So a student, just to make it concrete,

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a student with strong SAT scores,

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ones that we show are ACT scores,

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that show evidence that they'll
do well at a place like MIT,

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strong, maybe, AP scores,

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and the rigorous ones that
they have an interest in,

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plus a portfolio of things that they've,

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substantive things that they've done,

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not just, kind of, cookbook projects,

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but things that will
really show their passions,

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they would have a strong application.

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- Those students would have
a very strong application.

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- So that brings up another
interesting dimension,

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I mean, at the other extreme end of this,

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you do have some home schooled students,

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you have this unschooling movement,

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but how do you evaluate those students,

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and actually even compare
them relative to the students

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who are taking the five AP classes

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in a traditional college prep school?

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- Right.

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So, I think thinking about
home schooled students

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is a great way

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to demonstrate the fact that

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it's not just about the AP classes

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because we have home schooled students

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who were very successful

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and who do successful in
our process, certainly,

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but also become very
successful once at MIT.

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We do need evidence, though,
that they're going to do well,

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and there are a number of ways

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that students can demonstrate that to us.

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It is one of the reasons why
we require standardized tests,

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I mean, that's one piece of information.

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It's not all of it, but it's one.

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Some students, right,

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who are not in traditional
schooling pathways

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will still take classes

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in less traditional ways,

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so some will take classes at
local colleges, for example,

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and be able to demonstrate
their ability that way.

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And then there are other various kinds of,

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of ways students can do it,

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for example, the American Math Competition

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offers these competitions
where students who have a

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high ability in math can
do well on these exams

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and progress towards and
through the Olympiad program,

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and it's a way for students
to demonstrate, again,

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their talents, at least in
math, so that's one example,

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and there are other ways like that.

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So we're open to evaluating
all kinds of evidence

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that students can present to us

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to demonstrate

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their ability to succeed
once they come here.

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- Well, thank you, I think
that this is really exciting.

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I think I have some young
people I need to call

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and tell them about it.
(Stu laughs)

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- That's great, send them our way.

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(Sal laughs softly)