The Dangers of Vegan Health Claims | Matt Ruscigno Returns

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Hi it’s Emily from Bite Size Vegan and welcome
to another vegan nugget. Recently I released

my second interview with long-time vegan,
ultra-athlete, and registered dietitian Matt

Ruscigno, wherein we discussed the problem
of exaggerated vegan health claims, as well

as Matt’s simplified approach to nutrition.
In that video, Matt said a couple of things

that didn’t go over too well with many of
you, some of which were interpreted as a license

to eat animals and their byproducts.

As the video didn’t really give adequate
context to or time for Matt’s thoughts,

which is on me, we wanted to do a follow-up
video delving deeper into his arguments for

accuracy when it comes to vegan health claims.

Before we get into it, I wanted to address
something important. A good number of the

comments on Matt’s last video were personal
attacks against him, some very scathing in

nature. Now I am never in favor of censorship,
nor do I feel I have the right to tell anyone

their opinion, but I would ask that even if
you disagree with a guest of mine, which even

I do sometimes, to please phrase your disagreement
without personal attacks.

The people I have on my channel are giving
their time freely to share their expertise

and insights. You may not like or agree with
what they or I say, but I’d simply request

respectful discourse. This being YouTube,
I’m aware that isn’t necessarily going

to happen, but I wanted to at least put it
out there. As a consolation, perhaps, you

are free to write whatever attacks against
my character you desire. Enjoy.

Now let’s dive into the discussion
of the dangers of exaggerating vegan health claims.

Emily: Matt, I wanted to thank you
for coming back on to the channel and taking time out

of your schedule to be here and to go into some more depth about some of these concepts.

Matt: Yeah, I’m happy to be here
and love chatting with you and love talking about this.

Emily: What to you is the danger of exaggerating
health claims when it comes to the goal of

creating more vegans in the world?

Matt: Sometimes it looks like vegans will
say anything to convince people to be vegan

and that I think is problematic. Let's point to the evidence when

people say “Well can I be healthy?” Yes
you can. Here is the evidence that shows you

can get the nutrients you need and you can
even reduce your risk for disease. Getting

people to eat healthier is a multi-billion
dollar industry. We have all these

supplement companies and Naturopaths that want to sell you

all sorts of goofy mushrooms from South America
and essential oils that absorb through your

skin and make all sorts of health claims and
I don't want veganism to be in that category.

So let's get veganism out of that world of
making crazy health claims. I'm

wearing two hats because I'm first
and foremost an ethical vegan, I have

been vegan almost 20 years now and I have
also been in the nutrition field for another

12 or so. The reason that I find this so interesting

is that science is very complicated
and there are a lot of factors to take into

consideration when we are talking about diet
and health outcomes and we have lots of evidence

that eating plant based has benefits and I do a lot of talks with non-vegans at

professional conferences and what not and
I say look we are really lucky we have decades

and decades of research, you know, longitudinal
studies like the Adventists health study and

then also some short term studies showing
what mechanisms of plants are beneficial:

the fiber, the antioxidants and the nutrient
density. We have all this evidence that points

to eating more plants is beneficial. But a
distinction is that doesn't equate to veganism

they're are not the same and that's the point
that I try to make.

Emily: So even if these studies aren't speaking to strict veganism we also have

a good number of studies even going
back quite some time looking at the negative

impact of animal products on health and with
those, even if we have the studies that you

are talking about these longer term studies
aren't saying necessarily strict veganism

with these other studies and of course we
have now the world health organizations has

come out with classifying processed meat as
a carcinogen how can we look at those studies

then at least from the health perspective
and not say that okay eating any animal products

is bad and is unhealthy and thus veganism is the ideal from a health perspective

Matt: I think like the WHO report is really
helpful in showing that animal products aren't

health foods. They may supply
some nutrients that people need and that is

true and this is what the meat industry loves
to point to it's an important part of a healthy

diet, blah, blah, blah. What they leave
out is that you can easily get these nutrients

from plant foods, but what the evidence
points to is something like the WHO is that

these products should be reduced. Let’s say you eliminate processed meat and

red meat, your average person who isn't a
vegan or thinking about veganism is going

to say: ok then I will eat more chicken, turkey, eggs, I'll drink dairy.

That’s how they interpret it, my point
is to vegans and advocates of veganism

to make sure we are not seeing this only through
our vegan lens. That there is an important

distinction because people want to continue
doing what they are doing and that is eating

animal products they want to keep eating animal
products. How do we get them to not? Well,

I think we point and focus on the ethical
argument and then when they ask questions

about health we can say: well, we have all
this evidence that says vegans are very healthy

and that veganism can even help reduce chronic
diseases because we do have that evidence,

does that make sense? So, that is where ethics
comes in, you can't argue against the suffering

that animals go through in order to produce
food, you know, that is something that we

can always point to and to me a much stronger
argument and that ethical veganism is different

than plant based for health, they are different
things and I think that a lot of people know

this and understand it but sometimes in promotion
the two get confused. I will give you an example,

like Dr. Esselstyn has done fantastic research
as well reducing heart disease and he has

the papers to back it up, he has been doing
this a long time but his plan doesn't include

oil, he is very much against oil, olive oil,
any oil. So, as vegans do we point

to this and say: Hey look go vegan and that
means no oil. Do we need to be that strict?

Well, that is where it gets complicated.

Emily: One of the concerns that came up in
the comments section of your previous video

was you had mentioned something about how you have seen there is evidence

of people that have been on paleo diet even
and reduced cholesterol. One of the concerns

that came up was this could be number
one a momentary reduction, the cholesterol

could go down but what are really the long
term effects?

Cholesterol levels are one indicator of health or they are a biomarker

they are not necessarily talking about disease
outcome. Do we have any studies on the

long term impact of either paleo or eating animal products in general

versus the long term effects of veganism and a more holistic perspective on that?

Matt: Got it, So when I bring up paleo in
these kind of talks my point is that when

paleo folks can also see research through
their own lens and they can point to peer

reviewed studies that show look lower cholesterol
levels, lower weight, all sorts of things

are reduced and this is legitimate
research that is showing this but an important

difference is with vegetarianism and veganism
we have decades of research paleo does not

have that. Almost no other dietary
pattern has the depth of research that vegetarianism

has. You know, veganism on a lesser scale. We look at the first Adventist health

study which followed folks a few decades ago
and about half of those people were vegetarian

and that's where the evidence points to: look
these folks live longer, their life expectancy

is being increased if they are vegetarian
and that is great evidence but only a

very small percentage of them were vegan.
Now we have the Adventist health study 2

which follows 100,000 people it's a humongous
cohort, maybe the biggest that has ever existed.

Now 10% of that group is vegan, which
is great, because we have shown an increase

in the number of vegans within Adventists
and I think they are ahead of the curve with

plant based nutrition so it's great to see
that there is an increase there and we will

see that in the rest of the population and
so we can actually say: it's not just cholesterol

levels which are one risk factor but it's
all of these risk factors are adding up to

point to longevity. This all
points to lower rates of these chronic diseases.

Another important consideration is
the concept of risk. There are many risk factors

and what we can do by eating plants and good nutrition, is reducing those risk factors.

That doesn't mean that you won't get that
disease, it means you are much less likely

to. Do some vegans get cancer? Yes. Do some
vegans get heart disease? Yes. Is the risk

reduced for the population? Absolutely. But
those are two different things, you know,

we can't make claims that are absolute and
that's an important distinction because I

see vegans doing that too often.

Emily: Personally I always say I can eat really
well, I can do my fitness routine and things

like that and I would not be surprised if
I died early because of stress,

even as a vegan.

Matt: Right and so let's take this idea of
stress and we can relate it to Dr. Ornish

and his groundbreaking research in preventing
and reversing heart disease. He really

is ahead of the curve, amazing research, he
showed that you can reverse a disease, which

is a crazy concept: you have it, you do some
things, you don't have it anymore, that is

phenomenal, right? But, his research involved
meditation and stress reducing techniques

and that affects our health, like you said,
and his diet also included low fat dairy and

fish. That is not veganism, right? We use
this to promote veganism but the diet he was

using was not totally vegan. What does
that mean, well it complicates things for us.

The reason I talk about this stuff
is because occasionally I will have someone

at one of my talks say "Well, I hear all this
and I see all this evidence but you

have to be a raw food vegan that only eats
non-GMO and organic. That is the only way

to eat healthy. I'm like well...show me the
evidence. Well everyone knows this, haven't

you seen the vibrations pyramid? I'm like
what are you talking about? You know, and

these are people who are advocating for veganism
and they are very very strictly defining it.

I think that is problematic because what
if that is the only vegan, non-vegans know,

this person talking about the vibration
pyramid and you have to be raw vegan to be

healthy. Those things aren't true,
that's not real and to me that's what problematic.

Fake meat, vegan meat, whatever you want to
call it, you can say oh it's processed

it's not part of a healthy diet, you need to
eliminate processed foods. Well, the Adventists

eat fake meat in a can. It's an important
part of their diet. You go to Loma

Linda and the shelves are stocked with all
sorts of fake meat that is in a can and these

are the people where our strongest evidence
comes from. Well, they are eating it so does

that mean you have to eat it? Well, I wouldn't
make that claim. But I would say that you

can eat it, right? So let’s not get, we
get caught up in these details, you know,

that eating some veggie sausage with your
dinner will kill you and you might as well

be eating the real thing. I have heard vegans
say that and it is not the case.

That is the danger of this, getting too caught up in these health arguments.

Emily: Alright, well thank you so much again
for your time I really appreciate you coming

back on and kind of going into greater depth
with this.

Matt: Good, happy to.

I hope this deeper look into this important
topic was helpful in clarifying Matt’s position

and lending proper attention to the issues.

As Matt said, we have decades of research
on our side on the health aspects of eating

a plant-based diet, and we certainly have
iron clad ethics to back up any doubts. Personally,

if being vegan was the most unhealthy way
I could eat, I’d still be vegan, because

the impact on the planet and more importantly
the animals, is undeniable. Fortunately, a

whole foods plant-based diet just happens
to be ridiculously healthy as well.

Now I’d love to hear what you think about
the need for accuracy when it comes to the

health side of veganism. What are your thoughts
on what Matt had to share? Let me know in

the comments!

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