1 00:00:00,170 --> 00:00:04,990 Are you run down? Uninspired? Overweight? Loosing your hair? Not smelling too fresh? 2 00:00:04,990 --> 00:00:10,350 Malnourished? Overnourished? Too fat? Too thin? Too old? Too slow? Has your head come 3 00:00:10,350 --> 00:00:13,960 off? Well worry no more! Because now, for a limited time, when you go vegan you’ll 4 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:18,029 be better, faster, stronger, thinner, younger, more attractive than every before, and markedly 5 00:00:18,029 --> 00:00:23,330 less decapitated! But don’t just take my word for it! Check out these studies! No time 6 00:00:23,330 --> 00:00:28,619 for the fine print? They say go vegan! Veganism: the blanket solution for everything that’s 7 00:00:28,619 --> 00:00:30,599 every gone wrong in your life and the world ever. 8 00:00:36,420 --> 00:00:41,620 Hi it’s Emily from Bite Size Vegan and welcome to another vegan nugget. Recently I released 9 00:00:41,629 --> 00:00:46,659 my second interview with long-time vegan, ultra-athlete, and registered dietitian Matt 10 00:00:46,659 --> 00:00:51,619 Ruscigno, wherein we discussed the problem of exaggerated vegan health claims, as well 11 00:00:51,619 --> 00:00:56,379 as Matt’s simplified approach to nutrition. In that video, Matt said a couple of things 12 00:00:56,379 --> 00:01:01,389 that didn’t go over too well with many of you, some of which were interpreted as a license 13 00:01:01,389 --> 00:01:03,239 to eat animals and their byproducts. 14 00:01:03,239 --> 00:01:08,060 As the video didn’t really give adequate context to or time for Matt’s thoughts, 15 00:01:08,060 --> 00:01:13,100 which is on me, we wanted to do a follow-up video delving deeper into his arguments for 16 00:01:13,100 --> 00:01:16,000 accuracy when it comes to vegan health claims. 17 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,880 Before we get into it, I wanted to address something important. A good number of the 18 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:24,539 comments on Matt’s last video were personal attacks against him, some very scathing in 19 00:01:24,539 --> 00:01:29,630 nature. Now I am never in favor of censorship, nor do I feel I have the right to tell anyone 20 00:01:29,630 --> 00:01:34,460 their opinion, but I would ask that even if you disagree with a guest of mine, which even 21 00:01:34,460 --> 00:01:39,329 I do sometimes, to please phrase your disagreement without personal attacks. 22 00:01:39,329 --> 00:01:43,100 The people I have on my channel are giving their time freely to share their expertise 23 00:01:43,100 --> 00:01:49,749 and insights. You may not like or agree with what they or I say, but I’d simply request 24 00:01:49,749 --> 00:01:54,530 respectful discourse. This being YouTube, I’m aware that isn’t necessarily going 25 00:01:54,530 --> 00:01:59,210 to happen, but I wanted to at least put it out there. As a consolation, perhaps, you 26 00:01:59,210 --> 00:02:04,769 are free to write whatever attacks against my character you desire. Enjoy. 27 00:02:04,769 --> 00:02:09,460 Now let’s dive into the discussion of the dangers of exaggerating vegan health claims. 28 00:02:09,460 --> 00:02:13,780 Emily: Matt, I wanted to thank you for coming back on to the channel and taking time out 29 00:02:13,780 --> 00:02:17,739 of your schedule to be here and to go into some more depth about some of these concepts. 30 00:02:17,759 --> 00:02:21,980 Matt: Yeah, I’m happy to be here and love chatting with you and love talking about this. 31 00:02:21,989 --> 00:02:29,459 Emily: What to you is the danger of exaggerating health claims when it comes to the goal of 32 00:02:29,459 --> 00:02:31,500 creating more vegans in the world? 33 00:02:31,500 --> 00:02:36,870 Matt: Sometimes it looks like vegans will say anything to convince people to be vegan 34 00:02:36,870 --> 00:02:42,120 and that I think is problematic. Let's point to the evidence when 35 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:46,220 people say “Well can I be healthy?” Yes you can. Here is the evidence that shows you 36 00:02:46,220 --> 00:02:50,569 can get the nutrients you need and you can even reduce your risk for disease. Getting 37 00:02:50,569 --> 00:02:57,019 people to eat healthier is a multi-billion dollar industry. We have all these 38 00:02:57,019 --> 00:03:02,750 supplement companies and Naturopaths that want to sell you 39 00:03:02,750 --> 00:03:08,500 all sorts of goofy mushrooms from South America and essential oils that absorb through your 40 00:03:08,500 --> 00:03:14,709 skin and make all sorts of health claims and I don't want veganism to be in that category. 41 00:03:14,709 --> 00:03:20,010 So let's get veganism out of that world of making crazy health claims. I'm 42 00:03:20,010 --> 00:03:24,189 wearing two hats because I'm first and foremost an ethical vegan, I have 43 00:03:24,189 --> 00:03:29,489 been vegan almost 20 years now and I have also been in the nutrition field for another 44 00:03:29,489 --> 00:03:36,269 12 or so. The reason that I find this so interesting 45 00:03:36,269 --> 00:03:44,140 is that science is very complicated and there are a lot of factors to take into 46 00:03:44,140 --> 00:03:50,469 consideration when we are talking about diet and health outcomes and we have lots of evidence 47 00:03:50,469 --> 00:03:55,469 that eating plant based has benefits and I do a lot of talks with non-vegans at 48 00:03:55,469 --> 00:04:00,530 professional conferences and what not and I say look we are really lucky we have decades 49 00:04:00,530 --> 00:04:05,750 and decades of research, you know, longitudinal studies like the Adventists health study and 50 00:04:05,750 --> 00:04:10,549 then also some short term studies showing what mechanisms of plants are beneficial: 51 00:04:10,549 --> 00:04:16,410 the fiber, the antioxidants and the nutrient density. We have all this evidence that points 52 00:04:16,410 --> 00:04:25,010 to eating more plants is beneficial. But a distinction is that doesn't equate to veganism 53 00:04:25,010 --> 00:04:27,800 they're are not the same and that's the point that I try to make. 54 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:35,060 Emily: So even if these studies aren't speaking to strict veganism we also have 55 00:04:35,060 --> 00:04:40,830 a good number of studies even going back quite some time looking at the negative 56 00:04:40,830 --> 00:04:48,440 impact of animal products on health and with those, even if we have the studies that you 57 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:54,420 are talking about these longer term studies aren't saying necessarily strict veganism 58 00:04:54,420 --> 00:04:57,780 with these other studies and of course we have now the world health organizations has 59 00:04:57,780 --> 00:05:03,670 come out with classifying processed meat as a carcinogen how can we look at those studies 60 00:05:03,670 --> 00:05:09,160 then at least from the health perspective and not say that okay eating any animal products 61 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:14,220 is bad and is unhealthy and thus veganism is the ideal from a health perspective 62 00:05:14,220 --> 00:05:23,450 Matt: I think like the WHO report is really helpful in showing that animal products aren't 63 00:05:23,450 --> 00:05:29,650 health foods. They may supply some nutrients that people need and that is 64 00:05:29,650 --> 00:05:33,960 true and this is what the meat industry loves to point to it's an important part of a healthy 65 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:38,100 diet, blah, blah, blah. What they leave out is that you can easily get these nutrients 66 00:05:38,100 --> 00:05:44,460 from plant foods, but what the evidence points to is something like the WHO is that 67 00:05:44,460 --> 00:05:49,560 these products should be reduced. Let’s say you eliminate processed meat and 68 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:55,520 red meat, your average person who isn't a vegan or thinking about veganism is going 69 00:05:55,520 --> 00:06:00,830 to say: ok then I will eat more chicken, turkey, eggs, I'll drink dairy. 70 00:06:00,830 --> 00:06:07,170 That’s how they interpret it, my point is to vegans and advocates of veganism 71 00:06:07,170 --> 00:06:13,010 to make sure we are not seeing this only through our vegan lens. That there is an important 72 00:06:13,010 --> 00:06:17,270 distinction because people want to continue doing what they are doing and that is eating 73 00:06:17,270 --> 00:06:22,860 animal products they want to keep eating animal products. How do we get them to not? Well, 74 00:06:22,860 --> 00:06:27,490 I think we point and focus on the ethical argument and then when they ask questions 75 00:06:27,490 --> 00:06:32,720 about health we can say: well, we have all this evidence that says vegans are very healthy 76 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:37,180 and that veganism can even help reduce chronic diseases because we do have that evidence, 77 00:06:37,180 --> 00:06:43,460 does that make sense? So, that is where ethics comes in, you can't argue against the suffering 78 00:06:43,460 --> 00:06:50,080 that animals go through in order to produce food, you know, that is something that we 79 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:56,930 can always point to and to me a much stronger argument and that ethical veganism is different 80 00:06:56,930 --> 00:07:01,270 than plant based for health, they are different things and I think that a lot of people know 81 00:07:01,270 --> 00:07:07,300 this and understand it but sometimes in promotion the two get confused. I will give you an example, 82 00:07:07,300 --> 00:07:14,610 like Dr. Esselstyn has done fantastic research as well reducing heart disease and he has 83 00:07:14,610 --> 00:07:20,830 the papers to back it up, he has been doing this a long time but his plan doesn't include 84 00:07:20,830 --> 00:07:28,240 oil, he is very much against oil, olive oil, any oil. So, as vegans do we point 85 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:33,880 to this and say: Hey look go vegan and that means no oil. Do we need to be that strict? 86 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,810 Well, that is where it gets complicated. 87 00:07:37,810 --> 00:07:42,240 Emily: One of the concerns that came up in the comments section of your previous video 88 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:48,350 was you had mentioned something about how you have seen there is evidence 89 00:07:48,350 --> 00:07:52,760 of people that have been on paleo diet even and reduced cholesterol. One of the concerns 90 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:58,600 that came up was this could be number one a momentary reduction, the cholesterol 91 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:03,580 could go down but what are really the long term effects? 92 00:08:03,580 --> 00:08:08,680 Cholesterol levels are one indicator of health or they are a biomarker 93 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:14,510 they are not necessarily talking about disease outcome. Do we have any studies on the 94 00:08:14,510 --> 00:08:20,290 long term impact of either paleo or eating animal products in general 95 00:08:20,290 --> 00:08:27,030 versus the long term effects of veganism and a more holistic perspective on that? 96 00:08:27,030 --> 00:08:33,429 Matt: Got it, So when I bring up paleo in these kind of talks my point is that when 97 00:08:33,429 --> 00:08:39,659 paleo folks can also see research through their own lens and they can point to peer 98 00:08:39,659 --> 00:08:44,980 reviewed studies that show look lower cholesterol levels, lower weight, all sorts of things 99 00:08:44,980 --> 00:08:49,529 are reduced and this is legitimate research that is showing this but an important 100 00:08:49,529 --> 00:08:55,540 difference is with vegetarianism and veganism we have decades of research paleo does not 101 00:08:55,540 --> 00:09:05,389 have that. Almost no other dietary pattern has the depth of research that vegetarianism 102 00:09:05,389 --> 00:09:09,670 has. You know, veganism on a lesser scale. We look at the first Adventist health 103 00:09:09,670 --> 00:09:16,220 study which followed folks a few decades ago and about half of those people were vegetarian 104 00:09:16,220 --> 00:09:21,850 and that's where the evidence points to: look these folks live longer, their life expectancy 105 00:09:21,850 --> 00:09:26,970 is being increased if they are vegetarian and that is great evidence but only a 106 00:09:26,970 --> 00:09:32,319 very small percentage of them were vegan. Now we have the Adventist health study 2 107 00:09:32,319 --> 00:09:39,730 which follows 100,000 people it's a humongous cohort, maybe the biggest that has ever existed. 108 00:09:39,730 --> 00:09:45,160 Now 10% of that group is vegan, which is great, because we have shown an increase 109 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,360 in the number of vegans within Adventists and I think they are ahead of the curve with 110 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,910 plant based nutrition so it's great to see that there is an increase there and we will 111 00:09:52,910 --> 00:09:58,170 see that in the rest of the population and so we can actually say: it's not just cholesterol 112 00:09:58,170 --> 00:10:03,949 levels which are one risk factor but it's all of these risk factors are adding up to 113 00:10:03,949 --> 00:10:10,860 point to longevity. This all points to lower rates of these chronic diseases. 114 00:10:10,860 --> 00:10:18,279 Another important consideration is the concept of risk. There are many risk factors 115 00:10:18,279 --> 00:10:25,560 and what we can do by eating plants and good nutrition, is reducing those risk factors. 116 00:10:25,560 --> 00:10:32,170 That doesn't mean that you won't get that disease, it means you are much less likely 117 00:10:32,170 --> 00:10:38,240 to. Do some vegans get cancer? Yes. Do some vegans get heart disease? Yes. Is the risk 118 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:43,499 reduced for the population? Absolutely. But those are two different things, you know, 119 00:10:43,499 --> 00:10:47,680 we can't make claims that are absolute and that's an important distinction because I 120 00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:48,930 see vegans doing that too often. 121 00:10:48,930 --> 00:10:54,720 Emily: Personally I always say I can eat really well, I can do my fitness routine and things 122 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:59,320 like that and I would not be surprised if I died early because of stress, 123 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,149 even as a vegan. 124 00:11:01,149 --> 00:11:07,050 Matt: Right and so let's take this idea of stress and we can relate it to Dr. Ornish 125 00:11:07,050 --> 00:11:11,839 and his groundbreaking research in preventing and reversing heart disease. He really 126 00:11:11,839 --> 00:11:17,610 is ahead of the curve, amazing research, he showed that you can reverse a disease, which 127 00:11:17,610 --> 00:11:22,920 is a crazy concept: you have it, you do some things, you don't have it anymore, that is 128 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:30,850 phenomenal, right? But, his research involved meditation and stress reducing techniques 129 00:11:30,850 --> 00:11:36,209 and that affects our health, like you said, and his diet also included low fat dairy and 130 00:11:36,209 --> 00:11:42,959 fish. That is not veganism, right? We use this to promote veganism but the diet he was 131 00:11:42,959 --> 00:11:46,949 using was not totally vegan. What does that mean, well it complicates things for us. 132 00:11:46,949 --> 00:11:50,139 The reason I talk about this stuff is because occasionally I will have someone 133 00:11:50,139 --> 00:11:55,160 at one of my talks say "Well, I hear all this and I see all this evidence but you 134 00:11:55,160 --> 00:12:00,279 have to be a raw food vegan that only eats non-GMO and organic. That is the only way 135 00:12:00,279 --> 00:12:05,009 to eat healthy. I'm like well...show me the evidence. Well everyone knows this, haven't 136 00:12:05,009 --> 00:12:10,709 you seen the vibrations pyramid? I'm like what are you talking about? You know, and 137 00:12:10,709 --> 00:12:16,069 these are people who are advocating for veganism and they are very very strictly defining it. 138 00:12:16,069 --> 00:12:23,249 I think that is problematic because what if that is the only vegan, non-vegans know, 139 00:12:23,249 --> 00:12:27,730 this person talking about the vibration pyramid and you have to be raw vegan to be 140 00:12:27,730 --> 00:12:33,079 healthy. Those things aren't true, that's not real and to me that's what problematic. 141 00:12:33,079 --> 00:12:38,339 Fake meat, vegan meat, whatever you want to call it, you can say oh it's processed 142 00:12:38,339 --> 00:12:44,370 it's not part of a healthy diet, you need to eliminate processed foods. Well, the Adventists 143 00:12:44,370 --> 00:12:50,120 eat fake meat in a can. It's an important part of their diet. You go to Loma 144 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:56,209 Linda and the shelves are stocked with all sorts of fake meat that is in a can and these 145 00:12:56,209 --> 00:13:00,290 are the people where our strongest evidence comes from. Well, they are eating it so does 146 00:13:00,290 --> 00:13:04,160 that mean you have to eat it? Well, I wouldn't make that claim. But I would say that you 147 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:08,319 can eat it, right? So let’s not get, we get caught up in these details, you know, 148 00:13:08,319 --> 00:13:12,509 that eating some veggie sausage with your dinner will kill you and you might as well 149 00:13:12,509 --> 00:13:17,199 be eating the real thing. I have heard vegans say that and it is not the case. 150 00:13:17,199 --> 00:13:21,290 That is the danger of this, getting too caught up in these health arguments. 151 00:13:21,290 --> 00:13:25,410 Emily: Alright, well thank you so much again for your time I really appreciate you coming 152 00:13:25,410 --> 00:13:27,980 back on and kind of going into greater depth with this. 153 00:13:27,980 --> 00:13:29,720 Matt: Good, happy to. 154 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:34,019 I hope this deeper look into this important topic was helpful in clarifying Matt’s position 155 00:13:34,019 --> 00:13:36,649 and lending proper attention to the issues. 156 00:13:36,649 --> 00:13:40,689 As Matt said, we have decades of research on our side on the health aspects of eating 157 00:13:40,689 --> 00:13:46,610 a plant-based diet, and we certainly have iron clad ethics to back up any doubts. Personally, 158 00:13:46,610 --> 00:13:51,119 if being vegan was the most unhealthy way I could eat, I’d still be vegan, because 159 00:13:51,119 --> 00:13:56,309 the impact on the planet and more importantly the animals, is undeniable. Fortunately, a 160 00:13:56,309 --> 00:14:00,769 whole foods plant-based diet just happens to be ridiculously healthy as well. 161 00:14:00,769 --> 00:14:04,309 Now I’d love to hear what you think about the need for accuracy when it comes to the 162 00:14:04,309 --> 00:14:08,569 health side of veganism. What are your thoughts on what Matt had to share? Let me know in 163 00:14:08,569 --> 00:14:09,629 the comments! 164 00:14:09,629 --> 00:14:14,279 If you enjoyed this video, give it a big thumbs up. If you’re new here, do hit that big 165 00:14:14,279 --> 00:14:18,869 red subscribe button down there for more awesome vegan content every Monday, Wednesday, and 166 00:14:18,869 --> 00:14:22,970 some Fridays and to not miss out the on the rest of the Vegan Athlete series. If you want 167 00:14:22,970 --> 00:14:26,759 to help support Bite Size Vegan, check out either of the support links in the video description 168 00:14:26,759 --> 00:14:32,119 below or click on the Nugget Army icon or the link in the sidebar. Now go live vegan, 169 00:14:32,119 --> 00:14:35,369 keep nutrition simple, and I’ll see you soon. 170 00:14:35,369 --> 00:14:39,790 I wish veganism fixed everything... 171 00:14:39,790 --> 00:14:40,870 My life would be awesome...